Comments on: Death of democracy day http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Wed, 23 May 2012 07:00:30 +0000 hourly 1 By: Roger Thornhill http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-761 Roger Thornhill Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:11:31 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-761 John Redwood replying to Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle: "I think the EU would be reluctant to allow England to leave if the Union had broken up," John..."allow"? Look at the word used. Does that not demand we as a Sovereign nation leave? How can we be part of an organisation that thinks it is able to grant permission or deny it? Re: Bazman. You might be suffering from Post Hoc fallacy. Bavaria may well be EVEN RICHER if it were outside of the EU. I suspect its immigrant population would be different and crime levels would be lower. The EU most certainly thinks it has Sovereign power over the UK. I did not ask for it. It did not ask me so I reject it out of hand REGARDLESS of so-called benefits. That is NOT the way to interact with free peoples. Maybe you are not a free person by choice. Fine. It is not my choice. If you want to jump off the cliff to end your sorrows go ahead, but do not grab onto us all and drag us over so as to dilute your woes. John Redwood replying to Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle: "I think the EU would be reluctant to allow England to leave if the Union had broken up,"

John…"allow"? Look at the word used. Does that not demand we as a Sovereign nation leave? How can we be part of an organisation that thinks it is able to grant permission or deny it?

Re: Bazman. You might be suffering from Post Hoc fallacy. Bavaria may well be EVEN RICHER if it were outside of the EU. I suspect its immigrant population would be different and crime levels would be lower. The EU most certainly thinks it has Sovereign power over the UK. I did not ask for it. It did not ask me so I reject it out of hand REGARDLESS of so-called benefits. That is NOT the way to interact with free peoples. Maybe you are not a free person by choice. Fine. It is not my choice. If you want to jump off the cliff to end your sorrows go ahead, but do not grab onto us all and drag us over so as to dilute your woes.

]]> By: Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-760 Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:54:47 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-760 Dear Mr Redwood, many thanks for your good manners and interest in my wife's letter. Living in France we can see the obvious gravy train...the French have organised the EU to their own advantage for which everyone has to pay. My wife would make an excellent candidate but despite our encouragement she has been unable to make the plunge. She is an extremely attractive and articulate (as you can tell) 50 year old. We hail from Battle where I was a GP for many years, Liz's mum was a JP, and the present incumbent is likely to lose votes for a variety of reasons. Can you help? Robert Elliot-Pyle. Reply: By all means send me a letter with a CV and what you are trying to achieve. Dear Mr Redwood,
many thanks for your good manners and interest in my wife's letter.
Living in France we can see the obvious gravy train…the French have organised the EU to their own advantage for which everyone has to pay.
My wife would make an excellent candidate but despite our encouragement she has been unable to make the plunge.
She is an extremely attractive and articulate (as you can tell) 50 year old.
We hail from Battle where I was a GP for many years, Liz's mum was a JP, and the present incumbent is likely to lose votes for a variety of reasons.
Can you help?
Robert Elliot-Pyle.

Reply: By all means send me a letter with a CV and what you are trying to achieve.

]]> By: Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-759 Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:38:14 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-759 Dear Mr Redwood, thank you so much for your reply, which was most thought provoking and considered. My point is that if the union between England and Scotland were broken there would no longer BE any UK. Of course the EU want England to remain a member (where else would they get all that money?) We would be a new country, and as such would not be members of the EU - we joined as the UK remember. As for a Conservative government making a difference to our position in the EU - we have been promised this by EVERY government since we joined, yet nothing seems to change. I find it heartbreaking, and very scary. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Yours sincerely, Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle PS My point about voting UKIP is that it would be a protest vote. My vote is virtually useless as I live in a rock solid constituency, so wouldnt make any difference. Reply: protest votes give succour to the federalists. My point is that the EU might choose to ignore the fact that the UK no longer existed, and deem England to be the successor. Dear Mr Redwood, thank you so much for your reply, which was most thought provoking and considered.
My point is that if the union between England and Scotland were broken there would no longer BE any UK. Of course the EU want England to remain a member (where else would they get all that money?)
We would be a new country, and as such would not be members of the EU – we joined as the UK remember.
As for a Conservative government making a difference to our position in the EU – we have been promised this by EVERY government since we joined, yet nothing seems to change. I find it heartbreaking, and very scary.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Yours sincerely,
Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle
PS My point about voting UKIP is that it would be a protest vote. My vote is virtually useless as I live in a rock solid constituency, so wouldnt make any difference.

Reply: protest votes give succour to the federalists. My point is that the EU might choose to ignore the fact that the UK no longer existed, and deem England to be the successor.

]]> By: Bazman http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-758 Bazman Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:34:33 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-758 Britain leaves the EU....Then what? Are we going to be an offshore tax haven standing alone, using the imperial system? Living in a Britain. No! an England that never was and never will be? Many Tories should take a look at Britain's standard of living in relation to some some of our European neighbours. On the ground Germany is much more rich and advanced. Bavaria a conservative fantasy. Very rich, religious, but tolerant, advanced technology with green credentials, clean streets and little crime. A lot of foreigners, but more German than Germany. Cheap clean trains and fantastic roads. How many people would support a return to the imperial system despite the world using metric? You are wrong. America? They are so big, rich and powerful they can use whatever system they like. We often seem to be the best at being worse in many areas and I don't imagine right wing Little Englander mentalities improving this one bit. Upper middle class fantasies leaving the masses to face the consequences. We'll see... Britain leaves the EU….Then what? Are we going to be an offshore tax haven standing alone, using the imperial system? Living in a Britain. No! an England that never was and never will be?
Many Tories should take a look at Britain's standard of living in relation to some some of our European neighbours. On the ground Germany is much more rich and advanced. Bavaria a conservative fantasy. Very rich, religious, but tolerant, advanced technology with green credentials, clean streets and little crime. A lot of foreigners, but more German than Germany. Cheap clean trains and fantastic roads.
How many people would support a return to the imperial system despite the world using metric? You are wrong. America? They are so big, rich and powerful they can use whatever system they like.
We often seem to be the best at being worse in many areas and I don't imagine right wing Little Englander mentalities improving this one bit. Upper middle class fantasies leaving the masses to face the consequences. We'll see…

]]> By: andy http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-757 andy Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:37:03 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-757 Dear Mr Redwood,I"m afraid i must agree with the other posters on here,while i would class myself as a natural tory i am in total despair at the spineless atitude of the tory party to Europe.Dear God!You must surely realise just how utterly sick to death people are of having their lives controlled by unelected and unaccountable placemen and jobsworths whose seem more interested in getting their noses into the trough as soon as possible than actually doing something worthwhile for the mere taxpayers who fund those lavish lifestyles of theirs.Untill the tory party makes a clear promise to leave the EU i will be voting UKIP. Dear Mr Redwood,I"m afraid i must agree with the other posters on here,while i would class myself as a natural tory i am in total despair at the spineless atitude of the tory party to Europe.Dear God!You must surely realise just how utterly sick to death people are of having their lives controlled by unelected and unaccountable placemen and jobsworths whose seem more interested in getting their noses into the trough as soon as possible than actually doing something worthwhile for the mere taxpayers who fund those lavish lifestyles of theirs.Untill the tory party makes a clear promise to leave the EU i will be voting UKIP.

]]> By: English Yokel http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-756 English Yokel Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:17:14 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-756 Aha, so we "must vote Tory to get NuLabour out, a UKIP vote is a wasted vote". That seems to be the official line in this thread. But why vote Tory? I can't tell him apart from Blair! Surrounded by spin doctors, moving this way and that to gain favourable sound bites, the man has no principles. And what we are about here is principles. The principle that the UK is a self governing State that makes treaties as an equal not a submissive. If that is the best that the Tory party can do, the Peter Hitchins is right when he write that there is no hope of escape from the present mess until the Tory party implodes and new parties are formed from the wreckage. As a life-long (but no longer) Tory voter all I can say to the party is "get some spine to do what is right by this nation". Reply: I stick with the Conservatives because they offer me: 1. Opposition to Nice, Amsterdam and the Constitutional Treaty 2. A referendum on the Constitution 3. No to the Euro in principle 4. Powers back from the EU Voting any other way makes it more likely you have a Lib/Lab pro EU government. Aha, so we "must vote Tory to get NuLabour out, a UKIP vote is a wasted vote". That seems to be the official line in this thread.

But why vote Tory? I can't tell him apart from Blair! Surrounded by spin doctors, moving this way and that to gain favourable sound bites, the man has no principles. And what we are about here is principles. The principle that the UK is a self governing State that makes treaties as an equal not a submissive.

If that is the best that the Tory party can do, the Peter Hitchins is right when he write that there is no hope of escape from the present mess until the Tory party implodes and new parties are formed from the wreckage.

As a life-long (but no longer) Tory voter all I can say to the party is "get some spine to do what is right by this nation".

Reply: I stick with the Conservatives because they offer me:

1. Opposition to Nice, Amsterdam and the Constitutional Treaty
2. A referendum on the Constitution
3. No to the Euro in principle
4. Powers back from the EU

Voting any other way makes it more likely you have a Lib/Lab pro EU government.

]]> By: Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-755 Elizabeth Elliot-Pyl Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:40:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-755 Mr Redwood, I am a great admirer of yours. I often watch BBC Parliament and notice how often you speak and what sense you talk. I want you to know that I think you are a GOOD THING in politics, whereas my opinion of most other politicians is lower than low. Now then, my question is this: how on earth are we to extricate ourselves from this undemocratic mess that is the EU? Whatever the Conservative party says, we cannot remain members and have any influence, and certainly not change anything. It is a club, which suits the continentals (most of them) but does not suit the British - we actually OBEY rules, whereas they dont unless the rules suit them. My thinking is that if the Union of Scotland and England were to break up, England would be to all intents and purposes a NEW country (that had never joined the EU, EEC, Common Market or whatever) and we would have to decide whether to join or not. Problem solved. We would HAVE to be given a referendum on whether to join. I cannot believe that a majority would elect to join at this juncture. Do you have any idea whether I could be right, and what the constitutional situation would be? I am serious about this. I dont really care about the Union (Scot and Eng) but if it would get us out of the EU I would be all for the break up. Would value your comments, and keep up the good work. (By the way, my vote is in a rock solid constituency, so I feel free to vote UKIP - knowing that it wont make any difference in the grand scheme of things.) Yours sincerely, Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle. Reply: I think the EU would be reluctant to allow England to leave if the Union had broken up, although they have "threatened" Scotland with the possibility that Scotland would not be a member of the EU if she left the UK. As there are no clear rules on this I assume the EU would do the bidding of the UK authorities on this, or would do whatever annoyed us most! I do not think splitting the Union will automatically solve the problem, and think the strains of the Union may take longer to resolve than the EU issue itself. I prefer concentrating on the EU issue as the most presssing. The first thing we need is a Eurosceptic government in charge at Westminster. That will make a huge difference, and can only come about with a majority Conservative administration. Referendum,UKIP,English democrats etc have shown they can never win a single seat let alone 350 seats. Once we have such a government that government has to set about renegotiating, as the Conseravtives have voted against all the centralising Treaties under Labour and have made it clear we cannot live with this amount of EU power. At the last election we offered the country a referendum on the results, giving the people the choice of a better deal with the EU or no deal at all. I expect something similar will emerge as policy for the next election. At the moment the leadership understandably wants to keep the government on the hook for the referendum they promised to get through the last General Election. All our efforts should be concentrated on trying to force a referendum now. How can people do that? By writing to Labour MPs in marginals telling them they must honour their promise or lose their seats. All Conservative MPs will be on a three line whip to vote for the referendum. If each marginal Labour MP received 1000 emails or letters from constituents demanding the referendum they might be persuaded. Mr Redwood, I am a great admirer of yours. I often watch BBC Parliament and notice how often you speak and what sense you talk. I want you to know that I think you are a GOOD THING in politics, whereas my opinion of most other politicians is lower than low.
Now then, my question is this: how on earth are we to extricate ourselves from this undemocratic mess that is the EU? Whatever the Conservative party says, we cannot remain members and have any influence, and certainly not change anything. It is a club, which suits the continentals (most of them) but does not suit the British – we actually OBEY rules, whereas they dont unless the rules suit them.
My thinking is that if the Union of Scotland and England were to break up, England would be to all intents and purposes a NEW country (that had never joined the EU, EEC, Common Market or whatever) and we would have to decide whether to join or not. Problem solved. We would HAVE to be given a referendum on whether to join. I cannot believe that a majority would elect to join at this juncture.
Do you have any idea whether I could be right, and what the constitutional situation would be? I am serious about this. I dont really care about the Union (Scot and Eng) but if it would get us out of the EU I would be all for the break up. Would value your comments, and keep up the good work.
(By the way, my vote is in a rock solid constituency, so I feel free to vote UKIP – knowing that it wont make any difference in the grand scheme of things.)
Yours sincerely, Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle.

Reply: I think the EU would be reluctant to allow England to leave if the Union had broken up, although they have "threatened" Scotland with the possibility that Scotland would not be a member of the EU if she left the UK. As there are no clear rules on this I assume the EU would do the bidding of the UK authorities on this, or would do whatever annoyed us most!
I do not think splitting the Union will automatically solve the problem, and think the strains of the Union may take longer to resolve than the EU issue itself. I prefer concentrating on the EU issue as the most presssing. The first thing we need is a Eurosceptic government in charge at Westminster. That will make a huge difference, and can only come about with a majority Conservative administration. Referendum,UKIP,English democrats etc have shown they can never win a single seat let alone 350 seats.
Once we have such a government that government has to set about renegotiating, as the Conseravtives have voted against all the centralising Treaties under Labour and have made it clear we cannot live with this amount of EU power. At the last election we offered the country a referendum on the results, giving the people the choice of a better deal with the EU or no deal at all. I expect something similar will emerge as policy for the next election. At the moment the leadership understandably wants to keep the government on the hook for the referendum they promised to get through the last General Election. All our efforts should be concentrated on trying to force a referendum now. How can people do that? By writing to Labour MPs in marginals telling them they must honour their promise or lose their seats. All Conservative MPs will be on a three line whip to vote for the referendum. If each marginal Labour MP received 1000 emails or letters from constituents demanding the referendum they might be persuaded.

]]> By: Steven Baker http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-754 Steven Baker Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:06:59 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-754 On discovering Fabian gradualism, I just had an "Aha!" moment. If you will forgive me, I would like to refer the interested to my own blog at: <a href="http://www.stevebaker.info/wp/?p=236" rel="nofollow">http://www.stevebaker.info/wp/?p=236</a> On discovering Fabian gradualism, I just had an "Aha!" moment. If you will forgive me, I would like to refer the interested to my own blog at:
http://www.stevebaker.info/wp/?p=236

]]> By: Teck Khong http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-753 Teck Khong Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:06:56 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-753 Steven Baker (13 Dec 2007 at 9:42 pm), I believe there are still possibilities post-Lisbon and suspect that David Cameron is monitoring the situation to formulate a strategy based on the broadest possible range of opinions, then compare this issue with the others to ascertain which could cause the maximum seismic damage. What is the basis for the suspicion that he's conducting some reconnaissance? On 12th December, David Cameron wrote about his proposals for Afghanistan on Conservative Home; on the 13th there was an interesting Ipsos-MORI graphical analysis of the fortunes of Brown-versus-Cameron ("A Tale of Two Leaders"), and today, there are two further graphical analysis on complementary themes - "Voters believe that Britain is on the wrong course" and "Cameron must keep Conservatism broad in 2008". Steven Baker (13 Dec 2007 at 9:42 pm), I believe there are still possibilities post-Lisbon and suspect that David Cameron is monitoring the situation to formulate a strategy based on the broadest possible range of opinions, then compare this issue with the others to ascertain which could cause the maximum seismic damage.

What is the basis for the suspicion that he's conducting some reconnaissance? On 12th December, David Cameron wrote about his proposals for Afghanistan on Conservative Home; on the 13th there was an interesting Ipsos-MORI graphical analysis of the fortunes of Brown-versus-Cameron ("A Tale of Two Leaders"), and today, there are two further graphical analysis on complementary themes – "Voters believe that Britain is on the wrong course" and "Cameron must keep Conservatism broad in 2008".

]]> By: rob http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-752 rob Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:06:46 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2007/12/13/death-of-democracy-day/#comment-752 Dear Mr Redwood, Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my post and for letting me know that I am indeed corresponding directly with you. I have thought about the very issue you raise re splitting the Consvertative vote by voting UKIP. I am consverative in my business and political outlook but cannot square the circle in the sense that a party that should (and to my mind used to) support individuality, free enterprise and the limitation of governmental involvement in the life of the citizen, would still support in any form the opposite of all of the above in the shape of the EU. I honestly state it is not enough to "take back" control from the EU, as that political construction will never yield power. Exit is the only option to regain control of our own destiny as a soveriegn nation. Reply: As someone who voted "No" in 1975 I understand how you feel. However, if Eurosceptics remain divided we will never be in a position to do anything. Dear Mr Redwood,

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my post and for letting me know that I am indeed corresponding directly with you.

I have thought about the very issue you raise re splitting the Consvertative vote by voting UKIP.

I am consverative in my business and political outlook but cannot square the circle in the sense that a party that should (and to my mind used to) support individuality, free enterprise and the limitation of governmental involvement in the life of the citizen, would still support in any form the opposite of all of the above in the shape of the EU.

I honestly state it is not enough to "take back" control from the EU, as that political construction will never yield power. Exit is the only option to regain control of our own destiny as a soveriegn nation.

Reply: As someone who voted "No" in 1975 I understand how you feel. However, if Eurosceptics remain divided we will never be in a position to do anything.

]]>