Comments on: Which Referendum? http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:09:59 +0000 hourly 1 By: Rosemary http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1723 Rosemary Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:09:21 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1723 I should like an arrangement with the EU similar to France's with NATO. I.e. when we judge it in our national interest to co-operate with our European cousins and neighbours we would, and not when we didn't. We would keep control over our own foreign policy and armed services, and would not be paying corrupt foreigners to feather their nests. We would make our own laws and man our own borders. In other words we would have much better relations with our cousins as there would be no resentment at an unhappy, incompatible, and unfair arrangement. I should like an arrangement with the EU similar to France's with NATO. I.e. when we judge it in our national interest to co-operate with our European cousins and neighbours we would, and not when we didn't. We would keep control over our own foreign policy and armed services, and would not be paying corrupt foreigners to feather their nests. We would make our own laws and man our own borders. In other words we would have much better relations with our cousins as there would be no resentment at an unhappy, incompatible, and unfair arrangement.

]]> By: Rose http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1722 Rose Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:01:44 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1722 The most weaselly thing of all about the Liberals is the way they try to make out that they, unlike the conservatives, are respecting our constitution and parliament by not having a referendum - as if they were not conniving at giving it all away! The most weaselly thing of all about the Liberals is the way they try to make out that they, unlike the conservatives, are respecting our constitution and parliament by not having a referendum – as if they were not conniving at giving it all away!

]]> By: Andrew S http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1721 Andrew S Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:00:17 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1721 If we do not get a referendum on Lisbon, then what is the capacity for an incoming Conservative Government to start to rectify matters? Of the things it can offer the public, how much can it realistically carry within the party now and going forward? Reply: We must offer to do so - we will discuss and conclude on this if the Constitution passes into law in each country. If we do not get a referendum on Lisbon, then what is the capacity for an incoming Conservative Government to start to rectify matters? Of the things it can offer the public, how much can it realistically carry within the party now and going forward?

Reply: We must offer to do so – we will discuss and conclude on this if the Constitution passes into law in each country.

]]> By: Bernie O Hara http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1720 Bernie O Hara Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:33:41 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1720 It would seem that we in Ireland are the only people who have a vote on this. We will be fed every type of promise to make us vote yes. I think people from other countries who are against this treaty, should use whatever influence they may have with the ordinary Irish people to vote no. It would seem that we in Ireland are the only people who have a vote on this. We will be fed every type of promise to make us vote yes. I think people from other countries who are against this treaty, should use whatever influence they may have with the ordinary Irish people to vote no.

]]> By: Diablo http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1719 Diablo Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:46:24 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1719 Thanks for explaining the meaning behind the LibDems' antics with much more clearly than I can. What you did not say explicitly is that the Conservatives are the only one of the three main parties to have kept it's election manifesto promise. I am still confused and concerned why so many EU-ophiles are keen to lock us even more closely to what is an increasingly discredited and wasteful organisation. What motivates them? Reply What makes this such a big divide in British politics is each side finds the attitude of the other difficult to comprehend. They say "we must not be isolated" and the EU "brings us many benefits" but they never explain how these "benefits" are at risk is we simply say "No" to more central power. Thanks for explaining the meaning behind the LibDems' antics with much more clearly than I can. What you did not say explicitly is that the Conservatives are the only one of the three main parties to have kept it's election manifesto promise.

I am still confused and concerned why so many EU-ophiles are keen to lock us even more closely to what is an increasingly discredited and wasteful organisation. What motivates them?

Reply What makes this such a big divide in British politics is each side finds the attitude of the other difficult to comprehend. They say "we must not be isolated" and the EU "brings us many benefits" but they never explain how these "benefits" are at risk is we simply say "No" to more central power.

]]> By: Dave B http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1718 Dave B Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:50:04 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1718 James Forsyth, at Spectator Coffee House, says that: "Ian Davidson, the Labour MP who has been leading the charge for a referendum, has managed to get down an amendment on whether or not Britain should remain in the European Union; the Lib Dem’s failure to get the Deputy Speaker to accept their amendment on this yesterday led to them storming out of the Commons. Davidson has succeeded where Nick Clegg failed by proposing a two question referendum which would ask: “Should the United Kingdom retain its membership of the European Union?” “If it remains a member of the European Union, should the United Kingdom approve the Lisbon Treaty?”" Which seems to solve the problem you have with the Lib-Dem's in/out referendum. <a href="http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/527496/europe-referendum-back-on-the-cards.thtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/527496/eur...</a> Reply: I have no problem in principle with an In Out referendum, but think we need the Lisbon referendum first. Assuming a "No" vote, then we need to see what deal we can negotiate and put that to the British people. A referendum on "In - Out" without knowing either what we are being asked to stay in, or without knowing what is on offer instead of membership, would a muddled event. Securign a "No" vote to Lisbon greatly strengthens a government's hand in negotiating a better arrangement with the EU. James Forsyth, at Spectator Coffee House, says that:

"Ian Davidson, the Labour MP who has been leading the charge for a referendum, has managed to get down an amendment on whether or not Britain should remain in the European Union; the Lib Dem’s failure to get the Deputy Speaker to accept their amendment on this yesterday led to them storming out of the Commons. Davidson has succeeded where Nick Clegg failed by proposing a two question referendum which would ask:

“Should the United Kingdom retain its membership of the European Union?”
“If it remains a member of the European Union, should the United Kingdom approve the Lisbon Treaty?”"

Which seems to solve the problem you have with the Lib-Dem's in/out referendum.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/527496/eur…

Reply: I have no problem in principle with an In Out referendum, but think we need the Lisbon referendum first. Assuming a "No" vote, then we need to see what deal we can negotiate and put that to the British people. A referendum on "In – Out" without knowing either what we are being asked to stay in, or without knowing what is on offer instead of membership, would a muddled event. Securign a "No" vote to Lisbon greatly strengthens a government's hand in negotiating a better arrangement with the EU.

]]> By: Dave B http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1724 Dave B Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:50:04 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1724 James Forsyth, at Spectator Coffee House, says that: "Ian Davidson, the Labour MP who has been leading the charge for a referendum, has managed to get down an amendment on whether or not Britain should remain in the European Union; the Lib Dem’s failure to get the Deputy Speaker to accept their amendment on this yesterday led to them storming out of the Commons. Davidson has succeeded where Nick Clegg failed by proposing a two question referendum which would ask: “Should the United Kingdom retain its membership of the European Union?” “If it remains a member of the European Union, should the United Kingdom approve the Lisbon Treaty?”" Which seems to solve the problem you have with the Lib-Dem's in/out referendum. http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/527496/europe-referendum-back-on-the-cards.thtml Reply: I have no problem in principle with an In Out referendum, but think we need the Lisbon referendum first. Assuming a "No" vote, then we need to see what deal we can negotiate and put that to the British people. A referendum on "In - Out" without knowing either what we are being asked to stay in, or without knowing what is on offer instead of membership, would a muddled event. Securign a "No" vote to Lisbon greatly strengthens a government's hand in negotiating a better arrangement with the EU. James Forsyth, at Spectator Coffee House, says that:

“Ian Davidson, the Labour MP who has been leading the charge for a referendum, has managed to get down an amendment on whether or not Britain should remain in the European Union; the Lib Dem’s failure to get the Deputy Speaker to accept their amendment on this yesterday led to them storming out of the Commons. Davidson has succeeded where Nick Clegg failed by proposing a two question referendum which would ask:

“Should the United Kingdom retain its membership of the European Union?”
“If it remains a member of the European Union, should the United Kingdom approve the Lisbon Treaty?””

Which seems to solve the problem you have with the Lib-Dem’s in/out referendum.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/527496/europe-referendum-back-on-the-cards.thtml

Reply: I have no problem in principle with an In Out referendum, but think we need the Lisbon referendum first. Assuming a “No” vote, then we need to see what deal we can negotiate and put that to the British people. A referendum on “In – Out” without knowing either what we are being asked to stay in, or without knowing what is on offer instead of membership, would a muddled event. Securign a “No” vote to Lisbon greatly strengthens a government’s hand in negotiating a better arrangement with the EU.

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1717 mikestallard Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:40:11 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1717 If you can speak well in public and also have a consistent position stretching back over 30 years, then what have you got to be ashamed of? This is the Lib Dem position. I remember canvassing in Farnham way back in 1976 for the Lib Dems because I wanted Europe badly then (I liked the thought of cheap wine and fags). In no way have they anything to be ashamed of. Nowadays, of course, I know they are wrong because the Europe we are being faced with is utterly undemocratic, unfair, unjust and in severe danger of turning into a totalitarian state if and when things get nasty. So it is a terrible shame to see them behaving so stupidly when they have at the very least a consistent record. Why don't they stand up and say what they believe in, very loudly? And then work towards making sure that other people share their opinion? Reply: But they are not being consistent on a referendum - they backed one on the Constitution in 2005 to help them get elected. If you can speak well in public and also have a consistent position stretching back over 30 years, then what have you got to be ashamed of? This is the Lib Dem position. I remember canvassing in Farnham way back in 1976 for the Lib Dems because I wanted Europe badly then (I liked the thought of cheap wine and fags). In no way have they anything to be ashamed of.
Nowadays, of course, I know they are wrong because the Europe we are being faced with is utterly undemocratic, unfair, unjust and in severe danger of turning into a totalitarian state if and when things get nasty.
So it is a terrible shame to see them behaving so stupidly when they have at the very least a consistent record. Why don't they stand up and say what they believe in, very loudly? And then work towards making sure that other people share their opinion?

Reply: But they are not being consistent on a referendum – they backed one on the Constitution in 2005 to help them get elected.

]]> By: Brian Tomkinson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1716 Brian Tomkinson Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:20:30 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1716 JR: No wonder people have so little confidence in modern political parties. I wonder just how many MPs recognise or, worse still, even care that they are held in contempt by the majority of the electorate. The future of our parliamentary democracy is in great danger by the antics of the current "honourable members". We have MPs who care nothing for commitments made in their manifestos, have no strong principles other than keeping their jobs and appear to think that they have a right to give away the powers of lawmaking, temporarily entrusted to them via the ballot box, to an undemocratic body. At the same time they are seen to be claiming taxpayers' money for their own benefit without scrutiny and they object to public accountability. The scene is more reminiscent of a communist totalitarian regime or France before the revolution than the “Mother of Parliaments“. If things do not improve rapidly, then there must be a real fear that there will be some form of (strong protest -ed) and who knows what the consequences of that would be. JR: No wonder people have so little confidence in modern political parties.

I wonder just how many MPs recognise or, worse still, even care that they are held in contempt by the majority of the electorate. The future of our parliamentary democracy is in great danger by the antics of the current "honourable members". We have MPs who care nothing for commitments made in their manifestos, have no strong principles other than keeping their jobs and appear to think that they have a right to give away the powers of lawmaking, temporarily entrusted to them via the ballot box, to an undemocratic body. At the same time they are seen to be claiming taxpayers' money for their own benefit without scrutiny and they object to public accountability. The scene is more reminiscent of a communist totalitarian regime or France before the revolution than the “Mother of Parliaments“. If things do not improve rapidly, then there must be a real fear that there will be some form of (strong protest -ed) and who knows what the consequences of that would be.

]]> By: Puncheon http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1715 Puncheon Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:18:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/02/27/which-referendum/#comment-1715 Yes, I agree with all the stuff about the LibDems. But I think that the big problem the UK has with the EU is that unlike almost every other EU Member State, we have never had an open, frank and adult debate about our membership of the EU, ie what's in it for us. This is largely because the pro-EU lobby refuse to engage in such a debate - it all began with the great Heath lies - but prefer instead to indulge in cheap subterfuge and insults. Once again this is an opportunity lost by our political class. They simply do not understand the anger felt by most UK citizens at the way they have been treated over this. An anger that has been (wrongly in my view) translated into a stolid anti-EU prejudice. If we do eventually leave the EU it will be mainly thanks to the inadaquacies of the pro-EU lobby. Yes, I agree with all the stuff about the LibDems. But I think that the big problem the UK has with the EU is that unlike almost every other EU Member State, we have never had an open, frank and adult debate about our membership of the EU, ie what's in it for us. This is largely because the pro-EU lobby refuse to engage in such a debate – it all began with the great Heath lies – but prefer instead to indulge in cheap subterfuge and insults. Once again this is an opportunity lost by our political class. They simply do not understand the anger felt by most UK citizens at the way they have been treated over this. An anger that has been (wrongly in my view) translated into a stolid anti-EU prejudice. If we do eventually leave the EU it will be mainly thanks to the inadaquacies of the pro-EU lobby.

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