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	<title>Comments on: The Irish say &#8220;No&#8221; &#8211; a triumph for democracy</title>
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	<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/</link>
	<description>Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today&#039;s issues and tomorrow&#039;s problems</description>
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		<title>By: RogerinRichmond</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4053</link>
		<dc:creator>RogerinRichmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4053</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately (for some) Mike, the Irish electorate appear to have geared their very lack of understanding of and lack of transparency within the document, whilst exercising their sceptically minded  right to vote accordingly. They (the Irish electorate) should legally have been advised to abstain, given such a predicament. I would agree that this treaty will indeed be ratified within Eire, by whatever means, given the course of time. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately (for some) Mike, the Irish electorate appear to have geared their very lack of understanding of and lack of transparency within the document, whilst exercising their sceptically minded  right to vote accordingly. They (the Irish electorate) should legally have been advised to abstain, given such a predicament. I would agree that this treaty will indeed be ratified within Eire, by whatever means, given the course of time.</p>
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		<title>By: mikestallard</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4052</link>
		<dc:creator>mikestallard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4052</guid>
		<description>RogerinRichmond: this is a completely false argument. 
Look at it this way: I want you to sign this document which is 700 pages of very small type with quite a lot of 6pt in the footnotes. 
Once you have put your signature on the bottom, it becomes a legal contract which neither of us may break. 
You try and read it, as does your lawyer, and find that it looks scary and that it contains a lot of dodgy words and weasel phrases. 
But, of course, you sign it, don&#039;t you! 
You trust me! 
And it is only after a couple of weeks when your payments start rolling in and you find your first solicitor&#039;s letter on the doormat that you begin to regret your haste. 
Surely it is better not to sign something which you do not understand? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RogerinRichmond: this is a completely false argument.<br />
Look at it this way: I want you to sign this document which is 700 pages of very small type with quite a lot of 6pt in the footnotes.<br />
Once you have put your signature on the bottom, it becomes a legal contract which neither of us may break.<br />
You try and read it, as does your lawyer, and find that it looks scary and that it contains a lot of dodgy words and weasel phrases.<br />
But, of course, you sign it, don&#039;t you!<br />
You trust me!<br />
And it is only after a couple of weeks when your payments start rolling in and you find your first solicitor&#039;s letter on the doormat that you begin to regret your haste.<br />
Surely it is better not to sign something which you do not understand?</p>
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		<title>By: W Hutchison</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4051</link>
		<dc:creator>W Hutchison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4051</guid>
		<description>In an ever more difficult world something like, and I say like, the EU could be a good thing. But not as it stands just now. 
 
Independent countries freely choosing to confederate on common issues yes, but an all subsuming superstate where an elite dictate without an electoral mandate. 
 
This is indeed the issue at the present time in Scotland. The Scots are unhappy about electoral domination from Westminster and it matters not a jot that the Prime Minister and half his entourage come from Scotland. 
 
Most especially, the Conservative party steadfastly refused to consider any form of devolution in Scotland and the Labour Party introduced debvolution to arrest the march towards the SNP. 
 
Both approaches at enforcing a UK supersate have failed. The Scots have rejected the Conservatives in Scotland and they will never in their present form regain any power - at least not for another generation, if ever. 
 
Labour are similarly following the same path. The SNP are in government in the Scottish Parliament, they control many many councils, have 25% of the MEPs and are now poised to take the Glasgow East seat from Labour in a constituency that has been labour held for 72 years! 
 
So, what does all of this say. Well simply I think John Redwood is right on Europe. You cannot force Scotland, England or Ireland into a so called Union that the people don&#039;t want. 
 
Ireland showed it in the 20&#039;s ( or in fact for a long time before that), Scotland is showing it now, and John Redwood is raising the issue for many of the Conservatives. 
 
When Scotland goes independent, as it will, England will gain a very good neighbour. We have very much in common, we have blood ties and shared interests. 
 
 At that time we will have a &#039;Union&#039; where the parties entered into it of their own will and choice. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an ever more difficult world something like, and I say like, the EU could be a good thing. But not as it stands just now. </p>
<p>Independent countries freely choosing to confederate on common issues yes, but an all subsuming superstate where an elite dictate without an electoral mandate. </p>
<p>This is indeed the issue at the present time in Scotland. The Scots are unhappy about electoral domination from Westminster and it matters not a jot that the Prime Minister and half his entourage come from Scotland. </p>
<p>Most especially, the Conservative party steadfastly refused to consider any form of devolution in Scotland and the Labour Party introduced debvolution to arrest the march towards the SNP. </p>
<p>Both approaches at enforcing a UK supersate have failed. The Scots have rejected the Conservatives in Scotland and they will never in their present form regain any power &#8211; at least not for another generation, if ever. </p>
<p>Labour are similarly following the same path. The SNP are in government in the Scottish Parliament, they control many many councils, have 25% of the MEPs and are now poised to take the Glasgow East seat from Labour in a constituency that has been labour held for 72 years! </p>
<p>So, what does all of this say. Well simply I think John Redwood is right on Europe. You cannot force Scotland, England or Ireland into a so called Union that the people don&#039;t want. </p>
<p>Ireland showed it in the 20&#039;s ( or in fact for a long time before that), Scotland is showing it now, and John Redwood is raising the issue for many of the Conservatives. </p>
<p>When Scotland goes independent, as it will, England will gain a very good neighbour. We have very much in common, we have blood ties and shared interests. </p>
<p> At that time we will have a &#039;Union&#039; where the parties entered into it of their own will and choice.</p>
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		<title>By: RogerinRichmond</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4050</link>
		<dc:creator>RogerinRichmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4050</guid>
		<description>Might I add, as a 3rd generation Irish Londoner and whilst acknowledging the democratic right of of Eire&#039;s citizens to say no to this treaty, I would question their decision. Were a several hundred page document of &#039;Eurospeak&#039; proportions placed before any conservatively and sceptically minded electorate, such as the Irish and given the negative publicity and margins of time afforded this vote, would the balance of odds be any other way but to this outcome? Yes, I am in favour of this treaty. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might I add, as a 3rd generation Irish Londoner and whilst acknowledging the democratic right of of Eire&#039;s citizens to say no to this treaty, I would question their decision. Were a several hundred page document of &#039;Eurospeak&#039; proportions placed before any conservatively and sceptically minded electorate, such as the Irish and given the negative publicity and margins of time afforded this vote, would the balance of odds be any other way but to this outcome? Yes, I am in favour of this treaty.</p>
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		<title>By: Wullie - Scotland</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4049</link>
		<dc:creator>Wullie - Scotland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4049</guid>
		<description>Westminster denies us our voice. It does so at the expense of democracy. Did we vote for a superstate wherein we have an EU army, Eu taxation, EU police and all the rest that goes with a superstate. 
 
No. I recall no such vote as we move inexorably to a European Superstae. 
 
Of course Westminster acts in exactly the same way when it denies the people of Scotland a referendum on whether or not the Scots wish to secede from the Union and redefien the relationship on equal nation status. 
 
The Iron Fist is alive and kicking, both here and in Europe, and the Conservative party is as guilty as the rest. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Westminster denies us our voice. It does so at the expense of democracy. Did we vote for a superstate wherein we have an EU army, Eu taxation, EU police and all the rest that goes with a superstate. </p>
<p>No. I recall no such vote as we move inexorably to a European Superstae. </p>
<p>Of course Westminster acts in exactly the same way when it denies the people of Scotland a referendum on whether or not the Scots wish to secede from the Union and redefien the relationship on equal nation status. </p>
<p>The Iron Fist is alive and kicking, both here and in Europe, and the Conservative party is as guilty as the rest.</p>
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		<title>By: Marek Pietrachowicz</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4048</link>
		<dc:creator>Marek Pietrachowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4048</guid>
		<description>I only wanted to express my gratefulness to the People of Ireland. They spoke in the name of all Europeans, who were at the same time gagged to be silent. 
 
I am Polish, living in Warsaw, and my national Parliament has deprived us Poles of our voice in this matter (guess why). As they comment the situation - you can imagine how crushed the government&#039;s spokespeople are - &quot;A single, small nation should not enforce their will over the will of all the United Europe&quot;, they explain fiercely. However, they DO wish a group of a few Brussels&#039; politicians to enforce THEIR will over all the Europeans, without asking them for their opinion and agreement. Very democratic indeed. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only wanted to express my gratefulness to the People of Ireland. They spoke in the name of all Europeans, who were at the same time gagged to be silent. </p>
<p>I am Polish, living in Warsaw, and my national Parliament has deprived us Poles of our voice in this matter (guess why). As they comment the situation &#8211; you can imagine how crushed the government&#039;s spokespeople are &#8211; &quot;A single, small nation should not enforce their will over the will of all the United Europe&quot;, they explain fiercely. However, they DO wish a group of a few Brussels&#039; politicians to enforce THEIR will over all the Europeans, without asking them for their opinion and agreement. Very democratic indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tapestry</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4047</link>
		<dc:creator>Tapestry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4047</guid>
		<description>German ratification also uncertain after Ireland&#039;s NO vote.  See BBC report &lt;a href=&quot;http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2008/06/german-lisbon-ratification-also.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;HERE&lt;/a&gt;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>German ratification also uncertain after Ireland&#039;s NO vote.  See BBC report <a href="http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2008/06/german-lisbon-ratification-also.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Travis Bickle</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4046</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Bickle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4046</guid>
		<description>Cliff 
 
(words left out) 
The sour grapes line being peddled on BBC about 3 million (by implication)  &quot;ruining it&quot; for 490 million  conveniently ignores that fact that it is under 10,000 representatives in those countries that are steamrollering the citizens of 26 countries into this superstate with very few of us ever having been asked if that&#039;s where we want to go.... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff </p>
<p>(words left out)<br />
The sour grapes line being peddled on BBC about 3 million (by implication)  &quot;ruining it&quot; for 490 million  conveniently ignores that fact that it is under 10,000 representatives in those countries that are steamrollering the citizens of 26 countries into this superstate with very few of us ever having been asked if that&#039;s where we want to go&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4045</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4045</guid>
		<description>I was very concerned about the way the state broadcaster, the BBC, were spinning this result.

They stated that the Brussels elite were very angry because the Irish PM had &quot;failed to deliver his country&quot; to the EU.

What on Earth does that mean?

Does it mean the populations of the member states are seen by the leaders ot the EUSSR  as mere commodoties that can be traded by the elite? Is the EUSSR a giant collective farm and the people are merely livestock on that farm?

How on Earth can a trading block agreement become a soviet style authoritarian centalised super state in such a relative short time period? Why have our own governments let this happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was very concerned about the way the state broadcaster, the BBC, were spinning this result.</p>
<p>They stated that the Brussels elite were very angry because the Irish PM had &#8220;failed to deliver his country&#8221; to the EU.</p>
<p>What on Earth does that mean?</p>
<p>Does it mean the populations of the member states are seen by the leaders ot the EUSSR  as mere commodoties that can be traded by the elite? Is the EUSSR a giant collective farm and the people are merely livestock on that farm?</p>
<p>How on Earth can a trading block agreement become a soviet style authoritarian centalised super state in such a relative short time period? Why have our own governments let this happen?</p>
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		<title>By: John Capel</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/06/13/the-irish-say-no-a-triumph-for-democracy/#comment-4043</link>
		<dc:creator>John Capel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1130#comment-4043</guid>
		<description>I am convinced you are completely right and equally sure that every trick in the Brussels book will be used to press ahead and ignore the Irish vote. The arrogance of self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who believe they know best and imperiously by-pass the democratic process has to be put to rest once and for all. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am convinced you are completely right and equally sure that every trick in the Brussels book will be used to press ahead and ignore the Irish vote. The arrogance of self-serving politicians and bureaucrats who believe they know best and imperiously by-pass the democratic process has to be put to rest once and for all.</p>
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