Comments on: Data loss – how much more before they see the need to cancel the ID computer? http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Wed, 23 May 2012 13:35:04 +0000 hourly 1 By: Kay Tie http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5404 Kay Tie Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:28:23 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5404 There is an aspect of "the database state" that isn't being addressed very well, probably because it's a bit technical. And that's "How is the database indexed?" The keeping of mobile phone call records is held at the mobile phone companies. Your phone can place you in an area at a particular time. So when the police have reason to suspect you, they can get this data from the company and put you in the area (or discover your alibi). The Home Office wants the mobile phone companies to put all the data into their hands (and all the ISPs) so that it can be searched under a whole number of criteria, few of which are based on reasonable suspicion. For example, "give me a list of all the people outside this shop on Friday and who visit John Redwood's blog". Today, with the way the data is held, that gross "fishing" can't be done. With the Home Office proposals, it can - and will. This, for me, is the biggest and worst step: putting data in one place in the hands of Government to be searched at will for "interesting" patterns (which no doubt will lead to a Forest Gate style kick on the door at 6am). We are seeing with the ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) system, the ISP/phone call database, the ID card database 'audit trail' (i.e. a complete log of where and when the ubiquitous card is used) the construction of a "know everything" database in the hands of the Home Office. The opportunity for abuse boggles the mind. There is an aspect of "the database state" that isn't being addressed very well, probably because it's a bit technical. And that's "How is the database indexed?"

The keeping of mobile phone call records is held at the mobile phone companies. Your phone can place you in an area at a particular time. So when the police have reason to suspect you, they can get this data from the company and put you in the area (or discover your alibi).

The Home Office wants the mobile phone companies to put all the data into their hands (and all the ISPs) so that it can be searched under a whole number of criteria, few of which are based on reasonable suspicion. For example, "give me a list of all the people outside this shop on Friday and who visit John Redwood's blog". Today, with the way the data is held, that gross "fishing" can't be done. With the Home Office proposals, it can – and will. This, for me, is the biggest and worst step: putting data in one place in the hands of Government to be searched at will for "interesting" patterns (which no doubt will lead to a Forest Gate style kick on the door at 6am).

We are seeing with the ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) system, the ISP/phone call database, the ID card database 'audit trail' (i.e. a complete log of where and when the ubiquitous card is used) the construction of a "know everything" database in the hands of the Home Office. The opportunity for abuse boggles the mind.

]]> By: adam http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5403 adam Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:26:59 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5403 I agree intention is a key issue. The problem with labour is everything is relative, there is no good and evil, no right and wrong, no law abiding and criminal. Instead everyone is a potential criminal... even before they are born. Everyone is under suspition. Which is why everyone must carry an id card. imo I agree intention is a key issue.
The problem with labour is everything is relative, there is no good and evil, no right and wrong, no law abiding and criminal.
Instead everyone is a potential criminal… even before they are born. Everyone is under suspition.
Which is why everyone must carry an id card.

imo

]]> By: adam http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5402 adam Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:10:37 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5402 (The Home Sec - ed) is useless. Crying on TV when theres a terrorist attack, complaining to the media she is too scared to go out at night, now shes trying to get Gary Glitter back and keep him here along with all the other dangerous criminals she refuses to deport. Utterly useless. Im convinced she doesnt even know what her job is supposed to be, she just thinks shes got a fancy job in London that makes her very popular at dinner parties. (The Home Sec – ed) is useless.
Crying on TV when theres a terrorist attack, complaining to the media she is too scared to go out at night, now shes trying to get Gary Glitter back and keep him here along with all the other dangerous criminals she refuses to deport.
Utterly useless.

Im convinced she doesnt even know what her job is supposed to be, she just thinks shes got a fancy job in London that makes her very popular at dinner parties.

]]> By: DiscoveredJoys http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5401 DiscoveredJoys Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:20:32 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5401 Without getting too philosophical, the problem with the current government is they see the data of the population as 'theirs'. It is theirs by the 'divine right' of those who govern. In truth the data about me is mine. The data about you is yours. The government have no 'divine right' to the data and are only holding it, with our agreement, to make government more efficient. I expect that if people had an automatic right to compensation (I know, I know) of £1,000 per data loss, or alternatively some of the bigger bosses faced a day in court, the governmnet would rapidly shake its ideas up about the amount and security of the data it is supposed to safeguard. Without getting too philosophical, the problem with the current government is they see the data of the population as 'theirs'. It is theirs by the 'divine right' of those who govern.

In truth the data about me is mine. The data about you is yours. The government have no 'divine right' to the data and are only holding it, with our agreement, to make government more efficient.

I expect that if people had an automatic right to compensation (I know, I know) of £1,000 per data loss, or alternatively some of the bigger bosses faced a day in court, the governmnet would rapidly shake its ideas up about the amount and security of the data it is supposed to safeguard.

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5400 mikestallard Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:17:08 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5400 The maddening thing about all this loss of data must be that nobody ever is responsible. Nobody resigns. Nobody is punished. Nobody seems remotely to care or to do anything much about it. I listened in disbelief to the sacred words of Sir Gus O'Donnell today at 1.00 p.m. There were all the right noises. But what was done about them? Precisely nothing. If I were guilty, as a teacher, of even releasing one child's address to the wrong person, I should be publicly Glittered. But here is the Home Secretary smiling away when ALL the criminal records have been released along with, apparently, all those of the people on Remand too. I simply do not understand how she can live with herself, having exposed a lot of people to recriminations of the most savage kind. Would you be happy if, say, you were the parents of a drug pusher who was in debt to the barons? The maddening thing about ID cards is that they are wonderful. My son had one in Spain to allow him to get through Airport Security in no time. Mind you, it cost him £75.00 and it was issued by a special company that he could trust. I just do not want Jacqui Smith or anyone else I do not trust (with extremely good reason based on firm precedent) having my details to broadcast all over the world wide web and within "the criminal community". The maddening thing about all this loss of data must be that nobody ever is responsible. Nobody resigns. Nobody is punished. Nobody seems remotely to care or to do anything much about it.
I listened in disbelief to the sacred words of Sir Gus O'Donnell today at 1.00 p.m. There were all the right noises. But what was done about them? Precisely nothing.
If I were guilty, as a teacher, of even releasing one child's address to the wrong person, I should be publicly Glittered. But here is the Home Secretary smiling away when ALL the criminal records have been released along with, apparently, all those of the people on Remand too.
I simply do not understand how she can live with herself, having exposed a lot of people to recriminations of the most savage kind. Would you be happy if, say, you were the parents of a drug pusher who was in debt to the barons?

The maddening thing about ID cards is that they are wonderful. My son had one in Spain to allow him to get through Airport Security in no time. Mind you, it cost him £75.00 and it was issued by a special company that he could trust.
I just do not want Jacqui Smith or anyone else I do not trust (with extremely good reason based on firm precedent) having my details to broadcast all over the world wide web and within "the criminal community".

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5399 mikestallard Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:05:08 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5399 The answer to your thoughts must be this: I was a teacher (temporarily) in a tough North London Comprehensive. The witty Latin teacher (then transferred to teaching English as a token Gay ) was asked to design a School Motto. he came up with "Tua Mater". This was the worst threat that these oiks could utter. "We know where your Mum lives....." The answer to your thoughts must be this:
I was a teacher (temporarily) in a tough North London Comprehensive. The witty Latin teacher (then transferred to teaching English as a token Gay ) was asked to design a School Motto. he came up with "Tua Mater". This was the worst threat that these oiks could utter. "We know where your Mum lives….."

]]> By: Derek W. Buxton http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5398 Derek W. Buxton Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:14:57 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5398 CCTV cameras rarely if ever prevent crime, they might, just possibly, bring the criminals to justice (another default line in the system), after the event. Not much help if you are dead. You should also note that this administration is indeed illiberal, the councils are using laws to fight terrorism to harras their own population for stupid things. And this will only get worse, the police state is looming. CCTV cameras rarely if ever prevent crime, they might, just possibly, bring the criminals to justice (another default line in the system), after the event. Not much help if you are dead. You should also note that this administration is indeed illiberal, the councils are using laws to fight terrorism to harras their own population for stupid things. And this will only get worse, the police state is looming.

]]> By: no one http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5397 no one Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:37:24 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5397 <a href="http://notdrrant.blogspot.com/2008/08/nhs-it.html" rel="nofollow">http://notdrrant.blogspot.com/2008/08/nhs-it.html</a> http://notdrrant.blogspot.com/2008/08/nhs-it.html

]]> By: Freeborn John http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5396 Freeborn John Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:17:52 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5396 We quite often hear reference to new technology as a potential threat to our ancient civil liberties. Databases, CCTV, wire-taps etc. allow the state to do things that it could not do before but when is this a real treat to civil liberties and when is it just enhancing the efficiency of a legitimate state role? If there are CCTV cameras watching over public spaces throughout the country does this impair the civil liberty of someone lawfully going about their business in those spaces? I might say that my liberty is actually increased if the police can better protect me from harm or offence that might be perpetrated against me in that place which the police might otherwise miss without the aid of CCTV. Of course if the criminal law is paternalistic or prohibits activities that harm no-one but offend moral authoritarians (e.g. prostitution, gambling, blasphemy etc.) then CCTV would be a powerful tool in the hands of such an illiberal state, but the root cause of the problem then would be the illiberal legislation and not the CCTV. But is it as clear cut as that? If CCTV is simply a better set of policeman’s eyes then why should the state not put up microphones everywhere and listen in to conversations in public places? My instinct tells me that would be outrageous, but I am not sure how it differs from CCTV (except perhaps that it might not be so effective in preventing crime than CCTV and would be more invasive into private matters). The public sector presumably needs to keep lots of data on the public to fulfil its activities and the most efficient way to do that today is to hold it in electronic databases. Naturally such databases should be secure, but probably data got lost in the days of filing cabinets and punched tape. The technology today allows far more data to be kept (and lost) but when do these databases become a threat to civil liberties? I would say that (as with CCTV) it is when the underlying legislation it is intended to enforce is illiberal. I have no doubt that the police being empowered to go around demanding that we produce ID cards at their command is an infringement on civil liberties. Therefore this database is no simple efficiency scheme but part of a staged plan to compel us to carry such cards, and should therefore be rejected. We quite often hear reference to new technology as a potential threat to our ancient civil liberties. Databases, CCTV, wire-taps etc. allow the state to do things that it could not do before but when is this a real treat to civil liberties and when is it just enhancing the efficiency of a legitimate state role?

If there are CCTV cameras watching over public spaces throughout the country does this impair the civil liberty of someone lawfully going about their business in those spaces? I might say that my liberty is actually increased if the police can better protect me from harm or offence that might be perpetrated against me in that place which the police might otherwise miss without the aid of CCTV. Of course if the criminal law is paternalistic or prohibits activities that harm no-one but offend moral authoritarians (e.g. prostitution, gambling, blasphemy etc.) then CCTV would be a powerful tool in the hands of such an illiberal state, but the root cause of the problem then would be the illiberal legislation and not the CCTV. But is it as clear cut as that? If CCTV is simply a better set of policeman’s eyes then why should the state not put up microphones everywhere and listen in to conversations in public places? My instinct tells me that would be outrageous, but I am not sure how it differs from CCTV (except perhaps that it might not be so effective in preventing crime than CCTV and would be more invasive into private matters).

The public sector presumably needs to keep lots of data on the public to fulfil its activities and the most efficient way to do that today is to hold it in electronic databases. Naturally such databases should be secure, but probably data got lost in the days of filing cabinets and punched tape. The technology today allows far more data to be kept (and lost) but when do these databases become a threat to civil liberties? I would say that (as with CCTV) it is when the underlying legislation it is intended to enforce is illiberal. I have no doubt that the police being empowered to go around demanding that we produce ID cards at their command is an infringement on civil liberties. Therefore this database is no simple efficiency scheme but part of a staged plan to compel us to carry such cards, and should therefore be rejected.

]]> By: DennisA http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/08/22/data-loss-how-much-more-before-they-see-the-need-to-cancel-the-id-computer/#comment-5395 DennisA Fri, 22 Aug 2008 09:13:17 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1355#comment-5395 It amazes me how quiet the media are on ID cards. It seems as if the government has issued an (I)D notice on the matter. The BBC of course has been scared stiff since Hutton and it shows in everything they do, but the rest of the media? It amazes me how quiet the media are on ID cards. It seems as if the government has issued an (I)D notice on the matter. The BBC of course has been scared stiff since Hutton and it shows in everything they do, but the rest of the media?

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