Comments on: We are paying three times over for some bits of government http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Wed, 23 May 2012 13:35:04 +0000 hourly 1 By: Johnny Norfolk http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6120 Johnny Norfolk Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:28:57 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6120 Is it only 3 times. When I look and see. 1. The EU 2. Westminster 3. Regional Assemblies 4. County Council 5. District Council 6. Parish Council Even more in wales Scotland & NI. I make that more than 3 times. Is it only 3 times.

When I look and see.

1. The EU

2. Westminster

3. Regional Assemblies

4. County Council

5. District Council

6. Parish Council

Even more in wales Scotland & NI.

I make that more than 3 times.

]]> By: Blue http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6119 Blue Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:19:10 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6119 I am in the unfortunate position of being a specialist in proprietary software which is used by most LEAs. Therefore, I tend to work for LEAs. Many of the LEAs I've worked for have a shocking 'sick' rate; in one particular LEA, every permie took AT LEAST one day's 'sick leave' per week. Consequently, the contractors were the only people who could be relied upon to proved a proper service to the LEAs. Perhaps it's time to scrap IR35 and thereby promote contracting as a means for organisations to recruit staff without being subject to onerous employment regulations. Contractors do not get paid for hours/days when they don't work, They get paid well (or should do) because they do not have the perks that permies have. Thus, contractors not subject to IR35 have incentives to work. Doesn't this enhance the case for the scrapping of IR35? Reply: I led the opposition to it when introduced, and put it in my list of things for repeal for an incoming Conservative government I am in the unfortunate position of being a specialist in proprietary software which is used by most LEAs. Therefore, I tend to work for LEAs.

Many of the LEAs I've worked for have a shocking 'sick' rate; in one particular LEA, every permie took AT LEAST one day's 'sick leave' per week. Consequently, the contractors were the only people who could be relied upon to proved a proper service to the LEAs.

Perhaps it's time to scrap IR35 and thereby promote contracting as a means for organisations to recruit staff without being subject to onerous employment regulations.

Contractors do not get paid for hours/days when they don't work, They get paid well (or should do) because they do not have the perks that permies have. Thus, contractors not subject to IR35 have incentives to work.

Doesn't this enhance the case for the scrapping of IR35?

Reply: I led the opposition to it when introduced, and put it in my list of things for repeal for an incoming Conservative government

]]> By: Tim http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6118 Tim Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:20:58 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6118 I was a civil servant for the ministry of Defence in the nineties it was one of the most stressful jobs I ever had . I had to make an hour and half's work last all day. I ended up leaving despite its good pay and conditions due to the shear level of boredom. I was a civil servant for the ministry of Defence in the nineties it was one of the most stressful jobs I ever had . I had to make an hour and half's work last all day. I ended up leaving despite its good pay and conditions due to the shear level of boredom.

]]> By: Andrew Forbes http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6117 Andrew Forbes Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:17:49 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6117 Gosh. When you said "three times over", I thought you meant that many civil servants' jobs simply didn't need doing, that many civil servants' jobs hampered the work of other civil servants (and indeed the private sector) or were making a comment on the overlapping (and at worst, competing) responsibilities of several quangoes. I hadn't imagined that, even among all this waste, there was individual job triplication as well. Gosh. When you said "three times over", I thought you meant that many civil servants' jobs simply didn't need doing, that many civil servants' jobs hampered the work of other civil servants (and indeed the private sector) or were making a comment on the overlapping (and at worst, competing) responsibilities of several quangoes. I hadn't imagined that, even among all this waste, there was individual job triplication as well.

]]> By: lucysharp http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6116 lucysharp Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:58:06 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6116 I may be foolish in commenting before seeing your detailed post, but early retirement from the civil service is not necessarily permitted solely on health grounds. If a civil servant being made redundant is older than 50 then early retirement is automatically triggered. If you are serious about reducing the size of the civil service then redundancy and early retirement are going to be quite costly, so it might be better to accept a slower rate of reduction and let natural wastage take its course (combined with a recruitment freeze such as the one imposed in 1979). If you really want to investigate a shocking waste of public money then the provisions for civil service sick absence would be worth a look. Up to 10 days a year without a medical certificate, on full pay; with a medical certificate (which can be as unspecific as "stress" or "lower back pain"), six months on full pay followed by six on half pay, although a surprising number of people make miraculous recoveries just before their pay is due to be reduced. Furthermore, annual leave entitlement continues to accrue during paid sick absence, so it is not unknown for people to return to work only to disappear immediately on up to six weeks' paid holiday. Frankly, it is probably cheaper to let them retire. I may be foolish in commenting before seeing your detailed post, but early retirement from the civil service is not necessarily permitted solely on health grounds. If a civil servant being made redundant is older than 50 then early retirement is automatically triggered. If you are serious about reducing the size of the civil service then redundancy and early retirement are going to be quite costly, so it might be better to accept a slower rate of reduction and let natural wastage take its course (combined with a recruitment freeze such as the one imposed in 1979).

If you really want to investigate a shocking waste of public money then the provisions for civil service sick absence would be worth a look. Up to 10 days a year without a medical certificate, on full pay; with a medical certificate (which can be as unspecific as "stress" or "lower back pain"), six months on full pay followed by six on half pay, although a surprising number of people make miraculous recoveries just before their pay is due to be reduced. Furthermore, annual leave entitlement continues to accrue during paid sick absence, so it is not unknown for people to return to work only to disappear immediately on up to six weeks' paid holiday. Frankly, it is probably cheaper to let them retire.

]]> By: tim holden http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6115 tim holden Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:54:45 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6115 John, although not absolutely related to the topic, do the recent Labour rebels who have been summarily dismissed for requesting nomination forms have a case for unfair dismissal against their employer? This presumably would be a further liability to be assumed by the taxpayer - in the function of maintaining a premiership that deliberately explores the most doubtful limits of democratic principle. And, should a case for unfair dismissal be practisable, when can a case for negligence be brought personally against the PM for incurring expense for purely personal interest? Reply: I trust not - but I think they will be getting a taxpayer funded pay off of a few months salary. John, although not absolutely related to the topic, do the recent Labour rebels who have been summarily dismissed for requesting nomination forms have a case for unfair dismissal against their employer? This presumably would be a further liability to be assumed by the taxpayer – in the function of maintaining a premiership that deliberately explores the most doubtful limits of democratic principle. And, should a case for unfair dismissal be practisable, when can a case for negligence be brought personally against the PM for incurring expense for purely personal interest?

Reply: I trust not – but I think they will be getting a taxpayer funded pay off of a few months salary.

]]> By: Mark Wadsworth http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6114 Mark Wadsworth Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:08:28 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6114 For a summary of the scale at which 'early retirement' is abused in public sector, look at page 115 of Neil Record/Nick Silver's <a href="http://www.iea.org.uk/files/upld-book390pdf?.pdf" rel="nofollow">IEA pamphlet</a>. For a summary of the scale at which 'early retirement' is abused in public sector, look at page 115 of Neil Record/Nick Silver's IEA pamphlet.

]]> By: Bernie Gudgeon http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6113 Bernie Gudgeon Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:49:44 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6113 Until more recently, when pension funds were once in surplus, early retirement was considered by the private sector to be a legitimate way of cutting costs - by paying off the older guys and replacing them with cheaper youngsters that could undertake 2/3rds of the previous incumbents’ duties at a third of the salary. Unfortunately, I suspect the public sector will have increased rather than decreased the replacement employees' remuneration (to attract the ‘right‘ staff), and - as you say - without the luxury of an oversubscribed pension fund to take up the slack. That said, I have heard of government employees being refused early retirement recently, because of budget constraints, so life’s realities may finally be working their way through the system. Until more recently, when pension funds were once in surplus, early retirement was considered by the private sector to be a legitimate way of cutting costs – by paying off the older guys and replacing them with cheaper youngsters that could undertake 2/3rds of the previous incumbents’ duties at a third of the salary. Unfortunately, I suspect the public sector will have increased rather than decreased the replacement employees' remuneration (to attract the ‘right‘ staff), and – as you say – without the luxury of an oversubscribed pension fund to take up the slack. That said, I have heard of government employees being refused early retirement recently, because of budget constraints, so life’s realities may finally be working their way through the system.

]]> By: James http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6112 James Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:49:01 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6112 Is this not the case in 'local' government as well? We hear about council CEO's earning more than a Prime Minister's wage. Although we are given promises of fantastic savings when our councils transmute into Unitary Authorities, will it not be the case they will emulate the lines of 'Big' government. I certainly don't foresee my council tax shrinking no more than I foresee the numbers of council employees declining. Is this not the case in 'local' government as well? We hear about council CEO's earning more than a Prime Minister's wage. Although we are given promises of fantastic savings when our councils transmute into Unitary Authorities, will it not be the case they will emulate the lines of 'Big' government. I certainly don't foresee my council tax shrinking no more than I foresee the numbers of council employees declining.

]]> By: Brian Tomkinson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/09/15/we-are-paying-three-times-over-for-some-bits-of-government/#comment-6111 Brian Tomkinson Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:24:54 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=1552#comment-6111 Good point, but what will a Conservative government do to rectify the situation? Good point, but what will a Conservative government do to rectify the situation?

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