Comments on: Labour’s style of debating http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:18:17 +0000 hourly 1 By: APL http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8051 APL Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:42:58 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8051 Lola: "(Statism vs Freedom in my view)" Yes. Left vs Right is square peg in a round hold type of description. You are correct, it really is Statism (Facisism in fact) verses Freedom & Liberty. The trouble is, for many quite good people, the idea that something must be done is very alluring and the first organisation they think of to 'do something' is the State. Of course employees of the State are always on the look out to build and expand their empires. Lola: "(Statism vs Freedom in my view)"

Yes. Left vs Right is square peg in a round hold type of description.

You are correct, it really is Statism (Facisism in fact) verses Freedom & Liberty.

The trouble is, for many quite good people, the idea that something must be done is very alluring and the first organisation they think of to 'do something' is the State.

Of course employees of the State are always on the look out to build and expand their empires.

]]> By: The Half-Blood Welsh http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8050 The Half-Blood Welsh Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:10:08 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8050 I think you mean "If the Republicans will stop telling lies about us, we will stop telling the truth about them." It was Governor Adlai Stevenson in 1952, about the then Republican VP candidate, Richard "Tricky Dicky" Nixon. A great one-liner, knowing that he would never have to honour that promise against the likes of Nixon. It did him no good unfortunately - Eisenhower still won by a country league. I think you mean "If the Republicans will stop telling lies about us, we will stop telling the truth about them."

It was Governor Adlai Stevenson in 1952, about the then Republican VP candidate, Richard "Tricky Dicky" Nixon. A great one-liner, knowing that he would never have to honour that promise against the likes of Nixon. It did him no good unfortunately – Eisenhower still won by a country league.

]]> By: Archie http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8049 Archie Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:08:18 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8049 I was very glad to hear you put that ghastly tabloid creep in his place AND draw more applause from the audience than Miss Winterton, who appears to be a Hazel Blears clone without the intellect, if that's the word I'm looking for! However I have to agree with others here and elsewhere that the Conservatives have to raise their game and be constantly and vociferously on the attack or they risk being drowned out by the lies. Time is short! I was very glad to hear you put that ghastly tabloid creep in his place AND draw more applause from the audience than Miss Winterton, who appears to be a Hazel Blears clone without the intellect, if that's the word I'm looking for!
However I have to agree with others here and elsewhere that the Conservatives have to raise their game and be constantly and vociferously on the attack or they risk being drowned out by the lies. Time is short!

]]> By: THE ESSEX BOYS http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8048 THE ESSEX BOYS Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:33:33 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8048 A prompt and loud interjection of 'Pinochio' often stops a congenital liar in his tracks and puts him off his stroke. You'll even find the crowd warm to you. We used to write to Michael Howard and urge him to get the troops to greet every blatant 'eye-catching initiative' with cries of Ay-Ay-Ay to show Labour they'd been rumbled from the outset. (In the pre-blogging days it was quite easy for him to ignore all our suggestions and eventually to lose the plot, disastrously, over Iraq!) Nothing like a bit of ridicule to prick their bubble and to counter pomposity, cant and lies! As we blogged earlier, you showed Rosie W to be the Prescott-loving airhead we know her to be and demonstrated that YOU read all your correspondence even if SHE clearly (and also disastrously) doesn't! A prompt and loud interjection of 'Pinochio' often stops a congenital liar in his tracks and puts him off his stroke. You'll even find the crowd warm to you.

We used to write to Michael Howard and urge him to get the troops to greet every blatant 'eye-catching initiative' with cries of Ay-Ay-Ay to show Labour they'd been rumbled from the outset. (In the pre-blogging days it was quite easy for him to ignore all our suggestions and eventually to lose the plot, disastrously, over Iraq!)
Nothing like a bit of ridicule to prick their bubble and to counter pomposity, cant and lies!

As we blogged earlier, you showed Rosie W to be the Prescott-loving airhead we know her to be and demonstrated that YOU read all your correspondence even if SHE clearly (and also disastrously) doesn't!

]]> By: Alan Douglas http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8047 Alan Douglas Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:55:28 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8047 Somewhere I read a phrase : The more you tell lies about me, the more I will tell the truth about you. Finally the Conservatives are getting NOISY ! Only this will impinge on a docile electorate. Alan Douglas Somewhere I read a phrase :

The more you tell lies about me, the more I will tell the truth about you.

Finally the Conservatives are getting NOISY !

Only this will impinge on a docile electorate.

Alan Douglas

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8046 mikestallard Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:05:26 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8046 You are totally right about the three points which you were accused of: verdict: not guilty Mr Redwood! One of the endearing things about the Conservatives is this. When mr Blair and Co were vying for power, they went on and on about sleaze. they were horrified when the masked figure of Tony appeared "New Labour new Danger". They were, frankly disgusted with such behaviour. You see, they were whiter than white and they therefore demanded to be the government to get Britain, kicking and screaming etc etc. We now know what happened. Hypocrisy is certainly something which has increased one a 150 percentile fractionality during their tenure and they have overdelivered on their target figures. I notice that the Conservatives have refrained, largely, from copying them. I like them for that. Now - out and get them by telling it like it is! You are totally right about the three points which you were accused of: verdict: not guilty Mr Redwood!
One of the endearing things about the Conservatives is this. When mr Blair and Co were vying for power, they went on and on about sleaze. they were horrified when the masked figure of Tony appeared "New Labour new Danger". They were, frankly disgusted with such behaviour. You see, they were whiter than white and they therefore demanded to be the government to get Britain, kicking and screaming etc etc.
We now know what happened. Hypocrisy is certainly something which has increased one a 150 percentile fractionality during their tenure and they have overdelivered on their target figures.
I notice that the Conservatives have refrained, largely, from copying them.
I like them for that.
Now – out and get them by telling it like it is!

]]> By: Lola http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8045 Lola Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:40:12 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8045 It's the standard lefty technique in argument to answer ones question with a statement about what you are saying (which of course is NOT what you said) and then point out why it is not true. You then have to correct their statement and the argument shifts from the issue that was asked to the point they wanted to debate or you have to defend yourself about your 'lies' and again the argument shifts from the point to your probity. It's a version of the Socratic technique of constantly asking questions to test your interlocutors position. You can just envisage all the lefty apparatchiks sitting around working all this out when all proper people are getting a life. I have suffered this all my life when trying to engage in rational discussion with lefties and I have developed various techniques for dealing with it, but it is very tiresome. At heart I think they do this because they know that their philosophy is entirely flawed and can only be implemented by deceit. I have a cousin with whom I often used to argue on lefty vs righty (Statism vs Freedom in my view) issues and she always reverted to this technique. I have haven't bothered to keep in touch with her directly but I understand that she has been a policy adviser to New Labour..... It's the standard lefty technique in argument to answer ones question with a statement about what you are saying (which of course is NOT what you said) and then point out why it is not true. You then have to correct their statement and the argument shifts from the issue that was asked to the point they wanted to debate or you have to defend yourself about your 'lies' and again the argument shifts from the point to your probity. It's a version of the Socratic technique of constantly asking questions to test your interlocutors position. You can just envisage all the lefty apparatchiks sitting around working all this out when all proper people are getting a life.

I have suffered this all my life when trying to engage in rational discussion with lefties and I have developed various techniques for dealing with it, but it is very tiresome. At heart I think they do this because they know that their philosophy is entirely flawed and can only be implemented by deceit.

I have a cousin with whom I often used to argue on lefty vs righty (Statism vs Freedom in my view) issues and she always reverted to this technique. I have haven't bothered to keep in touch with her directly but I understand that she has been a policy adviser to New Labour…..

]]> By: Span Ows http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8044 Span Ows Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:04:41 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8044 I think to help this obvious truth and to blow NL's lies out of the water somebody needs to actually say it LIVE ON TV. A response such as "why do you lie so much?"..."why do you all tell so many lies?" or similar: there will be an immediate and loud response and probably a massive media follow up all leading to what we all know...that what they say is indeed not true. Reply: That's what I did on Newsnight recently I think to help this obvious truth and to blow NL's lies out of the water somebody needs to actually say it LIVE ON TV. A response such as "why do you lie so much?"…"why do you all tell so many lies?" or similar: there will be an immediate and loud response and probably a massive media follow up all leading to what we all know…that what they say is indeed not true.

Reply: That's what I did on Newsnight recently

]]> By: rugfish http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8043 rugfish Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:57:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8043 I had a giggle at this Mr Redwood, as it appears you feel the thrust of the lying Labour poker tongues too and we Conservative forum users are not alone. I commiserate with you every inch of the way. Zanu-LieBore, will have its last day soon enough and then they'll be all wringing their hands with woe at the slendid job we will make of ripping up their worst laid plans which they've installed these last 11 years, and ferreting out the idiotic decisions they've been making and leaking same. Despite we are in a pickle economically, this country will pull round and it can only ever do that with a Conservative Government. Don't worry Mr Redwood, most of the country I'm sure, are that switched off from Labour, they probably don't even listen to them anymore. I know I don't. I had a giggle at this Mr Redwood, as it appears you feel the thrust of the lying Labour poker tongues too and we Conservative forum users are not alone. I commiserate with you every inch of the way.

Zanu-LieBore, will have its last day soon enough and then they'll be all wringing their hands with woe at the slendid job we will make of ripping up their worst laid plans which they've installed these last 11 years, and ferreting out the idiotic decisions they've been making and leaking same.

Despite we are in a pickle economically, this country will pull round and it can only ever do that with a Conservative Government.

Don't worry Mr Redwood, most of the country I'm sure, are that switched off from Labour, they probably don't even listen to them anymore. I know I don't.

]]> By: Amanda http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/15/labours-style-of-debating/#comment-8042 Amanda Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:47:52 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2091#comment-8042 Yes, they've been doing this for years, and doing this increasingly - and the media let them get away with it. So the Conservatives need to get smart about politics and find a voice and a means to talk with people. Blogs are one way, using grassroots is another - the public are angry and getting angrier now is the time to channel that into local politics for local democracy. After all, isn't local govenance and personal responsibility a key Conservative policy? History has many examples of how 'ordinary people' have banded together under authoritarian and lying governments. Not only can those be copied, but technology gives us new means to employ. Yes, they've been doing this for years, and doing this increasingly – and the media let them get away with it. So the Conservatives need to get smart about politics and find a voice and a means to talk with people. Blogs are one way, using grassroots is another – the public are angry and getting angrier now is the time to channel that into local politics for local democracy. After all, isn't local govenance and personal responsibility a key Conservative policy?

History has many examples of how 'ordinary people' have banded together under authoritarian and lying governments. Not only can those be copied, but technology gives us new means to employ.

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