Comments on: A few more figures for those who like them http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:05:58 +0000 hourly 1 By: Coeur de Lion http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8452 Coeur de Lion Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:11:24 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8452 Hey, didn't I hear a promise to recompense people should their bank fail (up to£50K)? Does this appear on the liability side anywhere? Was it mentioned yesterday? Could be big money!!! Hey, didn't I hear a promise to recompense people should their bank fail (up to£50K)? Does this appear on the liability side anywhere? Was it mentioned yesterday? Could be big money!!!

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8451 mikestallard Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:18:46 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8451 What concerns me is the vagueness of all these figures which are being bandied about. I noticed that a government minister on PM started talking about a debt of "a hundred trillion pounds". I cocked an ear and he then went on to say ""tens of trillions of pounds". The interviewer, of course, let it all pass. In some figures which I looked up a year ago, the entire annual government expenditure on the army was just under £40 billion. Now you tell us that the shortfall in the estimates was £30 billion! According to the Telegraph this morning, the entire annual government expenditure last year was just under £600 billion. I had it down as just under £700 billion. Now we are hearing trillions mentioned quite regularly, certainly in relation to personal debt. You are so right: the government must unload the banks p.d.q. and manage the government expenditure properly. It would be awfully nice, too, to see a little reform of the complicated tax system. It must be very frustration to see all this going on while you, John, sit on the opposition benches staring at acres and acres of empty Labour seats! What concerns me is the vagueness of all these figures which are being bandied about.
I noticed that a government minister on PM started talking about a debt of "a hundred trillion pounds". I cocked an ear and he then went on to say ""tens of trillions of pounds". The interviewer, of course, let it all pass.
In some figures which I looked up a year ago, the entire annual government expenditure on the army was just under £40 billion. Now you tell us that the shortfall in the estimates was £30 billion!
According to the Telegraph this morning, the entire annual government expenditure last year was just under £600 billion. I had it down as just under £700 billion.
Now we are hearing trillions mentioned quite regularly, certainly in relation to personal debt.
You are so right: the government must unload the banks p.d.q. and manage the government expenditure properly. It would be awfully nice, too, to see a little reform of the complicated tax system.
It must be very frustration to see all this going on while you, John, sit on the opposition benches staring at acres and acres of empty Labour seats!

]]> By: A. Sedgwick http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8450 A. Sedgwick Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:45:31 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8450 My recurring question in recent days and weeks is who is going to lend these now published vast and yet optimistic figures? One section you have pointed out is the ripped off current and future pensioner being forced to buy an annuity funded by Gilts. This system is pernicious and counter productive and it is possibly unique for a politician to highlight the issue. It seems to be a no go area, but the working public are not stupid and many have woken up to the fact that they lose 75% control of decades of savings for a dubious return and minimal tax relief. When company final salary pension schemes were the norm this requirement was less significant, but now most private pension funds have to be funded from an individual pension pot. Consequently many people have given up pension funds for property, another reason for the housing bubble, or are saving the minimum required by their scheme. This has the effect of reducing savings and increasing those dependent on the state in old age. The chances of this system changing in the current financial black hole of debt are nil, but if the Conservatives are really about wealth generation, standing on your own feet and providing for your family this accumulated money over a lifetime must not be absorbed to pay national debt but should be a savings Reply: foreign investors, individual UK savers, pension and insurance funds etc My recurring question in recent days and weeks is who is going to lend these now published vast and yet optimistic figures? One section you have pointed out is the ripped off current and future pensioner being forced to buy an annuity funded by Gilts. This system is pernicious and counter productive and it is possibly unique for a politician to highlight the issue. It seems to be a no go area, but the working public are not stupid and many have woken up to the fact that they lose 75% control of decades of savings for a dubious return and minimal tax relief. When company final salary pension schemes were the norm this requirement was less significant, but now most private pension funds have to be funded from an individual pension pot. Consequently many people have given up pension funds for property, another reason for the housing bubble, or are saving the minimum required by their scheme. This has the effect of reducing savings and increasing those dependent on the state in old age. The chances of this system changing in the current financial black hole of debt are nil, but if the Conservatives are really about wealth generation, standing on your own feet and providing for your family this accumulated money over a lifetime must not be absorbed to pay national debt but should be a savings

Reply: foreign investors, individual UK savers, pension and insurance funds etc

]]> By: Mark Wadsworth http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8449 Mark Wadsworth Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:28:12 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8449 Of course our 'banking sector' is disproportionately large. We've just had a credit bubble and property price bubble (you can't have one without the other). This was the fourth big bubble since 1945. It always ends with a property price slump, credit crunch, recession etc. You can see why people get drawn into property speculation - it's little effort, apparently low risk and taxed at very low rates. So why not go back to the root cause of recessions - the property price bubble - and shift some of the burden of taxation away from incomes and production and investing, and towards property ownership, to dampen the bubbles while lifting the burden on the productive economy? (within the overall confines of reducing the overall tax burden significantly, of course!) Of course our 'banking sector' is disproportionately large. We've just had a credit bubble and property price bubble (you can't have one without the other).

This was the fourth big bubble since 1945. It always ends with a property price slump, credit crunch, recession etc. You can see why people get drawn into property speculation – it's little effort, apparently low risk and taxed at very low rates.

So why not go back to the root cause of recessions – the property price bubble – and shift some of the burden of taxation away from incomes and production and investing, and towards property ownership, to dampen the bubbles while lifting the burden on the productive economy? (within the overall confines of reducing the overall tax burden significantly, of course!)

]]> By: DiscoveredJoys http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8448 DiscoveredJoys Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:29:01 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8448 Frightening figures. Truly frightening. Just to put them in perspective... the 'stimulus' amounts to: "Buy a nice digital camera for £100, and get a free cup of cappucino". Hardly compelling. Frightening figures. Truly frightening.

Just to put them in perspective… the 'stimulus' amounts to: "Buy a nice digital camera for £100, and get a free cup of cappucino".

Hardly compelling.

]]> By: not an economist http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8447 not an economist Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:57:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8447 Some more figures but relating to the American economy, just so people can draw a contast with our Labour govt and maybe an indication where the future lies for our monetary policy: From the Bloomberg site: "Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government is prepared to provide more than $7.76 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers after guaranteeing $306 billion of Citigroup Inc. debt yesterday. The pledges, amounting to half the value of everything produced in the nation last year, are intended to rescue the financial system after the credit markets seized up 15 months ago." The link is as follows: <a href="http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=arEE1iClqDrk&refer=home" rel="nofollow">http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&s...</a> I don't care how much people want to cite the fear of deflation, increases in the money supply on this scale can only lead to scary levels of inflation. I wonder how long before we find ourselves flexing our money supply to the same degree (as a proportion of our GDP that is, although Gord and Alistair may want to go the full nine yards and match Bernanke in absolute terms). Some more figures but relating to the American economy, just so people can draw a contast with our Labour govt and maybe an indication where the future lies for our monetary policy:

From the Bloomberg site:

"Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. government is prepared to provide more than $7.76 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers after guaranteeing $306 billion of Citigroup Inc. debt yesterday. The pledges, amounting to half the value of everything produced in the nation last year, are intended to rescue the financial system after the credit markets seized up 15 months ago."

The link is as follows:
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&s…

I don't care how much people want to cite the fear of deflation, increases in the money supply on this scale can only lead to scary levels of inflation. I wonder how long before we find ourselves flexing our money supply to the same degree (as a proportion of our GDP that is, although Gord and Alistair may want to go the full nine yards and match Bernanke in absolute terms).

]]> By: Blank Xavier http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8446 Blank Xavier Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:29:43 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8446 I noticed with some surprise today just how far the pound has fallen. It this keeps up my income (which is in euros) will go a long way in the UK. On a related note, the prospect of devaluation is in Latvia now affecting freedom of speech. The secret police have been arresting and briefly (day or two) detaining people for publically speaking out about the risk of devaluation - on the basis that spreading false rumours about the financial system is a crime. It's disturbing, to say the least, that the Government is deciding what people can or cannot talk about in public. It has of course paralyised public debate and the exchange of information on the matter. Latvians are being decieved, by the State, into holding lats. Of course, from the POV of the State, they're doing it "for the good of the people", since if the truth was known, the lat *would* devalue, so trying to keep it hidden is their best bet. They are however in that position in the first place because the Government spent like there was no tomorrow. There is a zero percent chance of devaluation being avoided; but since the Government has made the decision to hang on and is suppressing discussion, this issue is not open to debate. The people owning lats are going to see all their assets and debts go to zero. Those who saved are destroyed, those who borrowed do very well, just like Iceland, and they have no chance to take any steps now to try to rescue themselves in any way, because the Government is not permitting - by the use of the secret police - them to know about this problem. The logic of withholding information from people "for their own good" is awfully seductive to Governments. The recent news about ID cards, large fines for not informing the Government when your name or address changes, are propertly tantamount to you being required to explain your private life to the Government "for your own good" (to prevent terrorism). I noticed with some surprise today just how far the pound has fallen. It this keeps up my income (which is in euros) will go a long way in the UK.

On a related note, the prospect of devaluation is in Latvia now affecting freedom of speech. The secret police have been arresting and briefly (day or two) detaining people for publically speaking out about the risk of devaluation – on the basis that spreading false rumours about the financial system is a crime.

It's disturbing, to say the least, that the Government is deciding what people can or cannot talk about in public.

It has of course paralyised public debate and the exchange of information on the matter. Latvians are being decieved, by the State, into holding lats. Of course, from the POV of the State, they're doing it "for the good of the people", since if the truth was known, the lat *would* devalue, so trying to keep it hidden is their best bet.

They are however in that position in the first place because the Government spent like there was no tomorrow. There is a zero percent chance of devaluation being avoided; but since the Government has made the decision to hang on and is suppressing discussion, this issue is not open to debate.

The people owning lats are going to see all their assets and debts go to zero. Those who saved are destroyed, those who borrowed do very well, just like Iceland, and they have no chance to take any steps now to try to rescue themselves in any way, because the Government is not permitting – by the use of the secret police – them to know about this problem.

The logic of withholding information from people "for their own good" is awfully seductive to Governments.

The recent news about ID cards, large fines for not informing the Government when your name or address changes, are propertly tantamount to you being required to explain your private life to the Government "for your own good" (to prevent terrorism).

]]> By: The Wilted Rose http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8445 The Wilted Rose Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:59:38 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8445 So much for Labour being against taking "excessive risks"! So much for Labour being against taking "excessive risks"!

]]> By: Jonathan Cook http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8443 Jonathan Cook Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:57:45 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8443 John, I'm not old enough to remember the fallout last time the UK went to the IMF to bail us out. If the country goes bankrupt where do we stand? What are the key things we need to know or be aware of? I see today that UK gilts cost three times more than those of Germany or the US to insure. The omens don't look good. If we are made bankrupt - surely this changes the whole debate about joining the Euro? We'd need to dive into the Euro for protection wouldn't we? I'm loathe to join the Euro until we have democratically and accountable politicians in Europe, but I'm wondering if the UK can go it alone any more. Reply: We would have to seek international loans from IMF etc and accept their terms which would include spending cuts. John,

I'm not old enough to remember the fallout last time the UK went to the IMF to bail us out.

If the country goes bankrupt where do we stand? What are the key things we need to know or be aware of?

I see today that UK gilts cost three times more than those of Germany or the US to insure. The omens don't look good.

If we are made bankrupt – surely this changes the whole debate about joining the Euro? We'd need to dive into the Euro for protection wouldn't we? I'm loathe to join the Euro until we have democratically and accountable politicians in Europe, but I'm wondering if the UK can go it alone any more.

Reply: We would have to seek international loans from IMF etc and accept their terms which would include spending cuts.

]]> By: Neil Craig http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/25/a-few-more-figures-for-those-who-like-them/#comment-8442 Neil Craig Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:24:54 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2182#comment-8442 TYhanks for providing a site that will put raw numbers vefore us rather than spin. The government intends to increase national indebtedness by £512 billion (36% of GNP) & with the tiny exception of not increasing corporation tax onl small businesses by 2% there is nothing in this which will improve competitiveness or solve our basic structural problems. Indeed government is to increase by 1.2% next year as the economy declines 1%. TYhanks for providing a site that will put raw numbers vefore us rather than spin. The government intends to increase national indebtedness by £512 billion (36% of GNP) & with the tiny exception of not increasing corporation tax onl small businesses by 2% there is nothing in this which will improve competitiveness or solve our basic structural problems. Indeed government is to increase by 1.2% next year as the economy declines 1%.

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