Comments on: The nature of democracy http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:18:17 +0000 hourly 1 By: Freeborn John http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8672 Freeborn John Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:37:58 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8672 The problem however is the growing body of EU law with which national law cannot conflict. As the volume of this superior body of law swells remorselessly it shrinks the arena within which democratic politics as you describe it can operate. Politicians in power today actually have an incentive to legislate at EU level because this legislative route allows them to bind the hands of the Opposition, who once in office are only able to repeal the national legislation they inherit. I hope to see some plan in either the 2009 and 2010 Conservative manifestos as to how you plan to address this issue, because it is central to the future of democracy in this country. The problem however is the growing body of EU law with which national law cannot conflict. As the volume of this superior body of law swells remorselessly it shrinks the arena within which democratic politics as you describe it can operate. Politicians in power today actually have an incentive to legislate at EU level because this legislative route allows them to bind the hands of the Opposition, who once in office are only able to repeal the national legislation they inherit. I hope to see some plan in either the 2009 and 2010 Conservative manifestos as to how you plan to address this issue, because it is central to the future of democracy in this country.

]]> By: Nick http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8671 Nick Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:40:26 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8671 It was interesting watching Brillopad last night. Both Portillo and Abbot agreed that the problem is that MPs loyalty is to party and not to parliment. Abbot also admitted that policy is set centrally by Labour's central committee. ie. MPs are lobby cows designed to be herded to vote the way the few tell them to vote. Since that's the case, parliment is by and large irrelevant. It's nothing more than a collection of very overpaid social workers dealing with the odd constituent with a problem. In my experience even here they are hopeless. If we then look at the BNP, they are going to be successful by moving to the Sein Fein model, of cutting grass for people who can't. Helping them at the low level, with things like housing and small issues and gain support. That's the fundamental issue. The lack of real democracy is going to drive people either to single issue groups, or to the extremes. Lets have it that we vote on the main issues. Once per year. MPs and parties can put the issues together and run them once passed. Then you really will get people interest in politics. I also suspect that they will be conservative with a small c It was interesting watching Brillopad last night. Both Portillo and Abbot agreed that the problem is that MPs loyalty is to party and not to parliment.

Abbot also admitted that policy is set centrally by Labour's central committee.

ie. MPs are lobby cows designed to be herded to vote the way the few tell them to vote.

Since that's the case, parliment is by and large irrelevant.

It's nothing more than a collection of very overpaid social workers dealing with the odd constituent with a problem. In my experience even here they are hopeless.

If we then look at the BNP, they are going to be successful by moving to the Sein Fein model, of cutting grass for people who can't. Helping them at the low level, with things like housing and small issues and gain support.

That's the fundamental issue. The lack of real democracy is going to drive people either to single issue groups, or to the extremes.

Lets have it that we vote on the main issues. Once per year. MPs and parties can put the issues together and run them once passed.

Then you really will get people interest in politics.

I also suspect that they will be conservative with a small c

]]> By: Jack http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8670 Jack Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:21:51 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8670 I have never trusted liberal use of the term "parliamentary democracy" since the upper chamber is appointed and in the lower chamber an administration hasn't obtained a majority of the popular vote since 1935. No wonder most of the electorate don't bother to vote, clearly voting changes nothing. The British political system operates on a basis of privilege and patronage, neglecting to extend to the people true democratic choice. No wonder the Americans (Boston Tea Party), Irish and Scots have been desperate to acquire their own poltical systems, the British system offers little public representation or accountability, thus is our "democracy" system open to abuse. I have never trusted liberal use of the term "parliamentary democracy" since the upper chamber is appointed and in the lower chamber an administration hasn't obtained a majority of the popular vote since 1935. No wonder most of the electorate don't bother to vote, clearly voting changes nothing. The British political system operates on a basis of privilege and patronage, neglecting to extend to the people true democratic choice. No wonder the Americans (Boston Tea Party), Irish and Scots have been desperate to acquire their own poltical systems, the British system offers little public representation or accountability, thus is our "democracy" system open to abuse.

]]> By: Adrian Peirson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8669 Adrian Peirson Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:27:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8669 And Ed Balls is proposing a civilian security force, just like Barack Obama is in the USA. Isn't this what the Nazi's did, and the East Germans. Coincidence, or part of their New World Order. <a href="http://www.prisonplanet.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.prisonplanet.com</a> And Ed Balls is proposing a civilian security force, just like Barack Obama is in the USA.
Isn't this what the Nazi's did, and the East Germans.

Coincidence, or part of their New World Order.
http://www.prisonplanet.com

]]> By: Stuart Fairney http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8668 Stuart Fairney Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:21:54 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8668 With apologies for going slightly off topic, if you see the last paragraph of this report <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7756027.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/77560...</a> "Also, forcing local authorities to spend more money on youth services and the creation of civilian security force consisting of military trainers, civil servants, police officers, judges and other logistical staff" What on earth do they want a civilian security force for?? With apologies for going slightly off topic, if you see the last paragraph of this report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/77560…

"Also, forcing local authorities to spend more money on youth services and the creation of civilian security force consisting of military trainers, civil servants, police officers, judges and other logistical staff"

What on earth do they want a civilian security force for??

]]> By: mikestallard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8667 mikestallard Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:15:21 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8667 As this government moves farther and farther away from their electors, it is inevitable that it will make more and more unpopular and wrong decisions. The process of bulletproof limos, use of the royal flight by ministers, the purchase of larger and larger mansions and the gating of Downing Street has insulated ministers from reality. To make matters worse, as you so rightly point out, it has taken steps to insulate itself from any form of discussion by "outsiders". Dictatorship never works: it depends on ignorance and, quite often, on the whim of the current mistress, wife or corrupt official. We have seen quite a lot of wrong decisions over the past ten years (Iraq, the economy, David Kelly) and I look forward, with confidence, to many, many more as all sensible discussion is deliberately shut down. More and more it is only possible to reach the decision makers by being part of a strong pressure group (Heathrow, Bernie Ecclestone, BMA, CBI, the Press), or else by plain downright bad manners and violence (fox hunting demo, Islamic extremism). We English do not like this at all and, believe me, we are beginning to get angry about it. Look, for instance at the letters page of the Daily Telegraph. As this government moves farther and farther away from their electors, it is inevitable that it will make more and more unpopular and wrong decisions. The process of bulletproof limos, use of the royal flight by ministers, the purchase of larger and larger mansions and the gating of Downing Street has insulated ministers from reality.
To make matters worse, as you so rightly point out, it has taken steps to insulate itself from any form of discussion by "outsiders".
Dictatorship never works: it depends on ignorance and, quite often, on the whim of the current mistress, wife or corrupt official.
We have seen quite a lot of wrong decisions over the past ten years (Iraq, the economy, David Kelly) and I look forward, with confidence, to many, many more as all sensible discussion is deliberately shut down.
More and more it is only possible to reach the decision makers by being part of a strong pressure group (Heathrow, Bernie Ecclestone, BMA, CBI, the Press), or else by plain downright bad manners and violence (fox hunting demo, Islamic extremism).
We English do not like this at all and, believe me, we are beginning to get angry about it. Look, for instance at the letters page of the Daily Telegraph.

]]> By: Nick http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8666 Nick Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:53:43 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8666 A democracy needs a strong Parliamentary Opposition to flourish. ---------------- Twaddle. You're taking the political self interest route. We can have a democracy without an opposition. What is needed is direct democracy. Either politicians propose laws and taxes, and the voters get the right to veto in a referenda, or you extend it that all laws result from petitions, and then referenda. It's political self interest because politicians in general want their day in power, and you're therefore not prepared to give control back to the electorate to decide on an issue. You only let the electorate vote for a lobby sheep who gets herded by the whips. This is the democratic deficit in the UK. What's the point of voting for a sheep who does as he/she is told? It's the main reason why people are pissed off with politicians, and why you have the growth of single issue groups. Nick A democracy needs a strong Parliamentary Opposition to flourish.
—————-

Twaddle. You're taking the political self interest route.

We can have a democracy without an opposition.

What is needed is direct democracy. Either politicians propose laws and taxes, and the voters get the right to veto in a referenda, or you extend it that all laws result from petitions, and then referenda.

It's political self interest because politicians in general want their day in power, and you're therefore not prepared to give control back to the electorate to decide on an issue. You only let the electorate vote for a lobby sheep who gets herded by the whips.

This is the democratic deficit in the UK. What's the point of voting for a sheep who does as he/she is told? It's the main reason why people are pissed off with politicians, and why you have the growth of single issue groups.

Nick

]]> By: councilhousetory http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8665 councilhousetory Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:37:38 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8665 John Good post. I only hope this isn't allowed to fizzle out. Heads need to roll, otherwise next time it will be worse. It would also be helpful if the tories could speak out more forcefully about the erosion of civil liberties and democracy in this country. In particular, the ID card and database scheme needs scrapping. John

Good post. I only hope this isn't allowed to fizzle out. Heads need to roll, otherwise next time it will be worse. It would also be helpful if the tories could speak out more forcefully about the erosion of civil liberties and democracy in this country. In particular, the ID card and database scheme needs scrapping.

]]> By: Peter Whale http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8664 Peter Whale Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:25:32 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8664 What should be done with the abuse of the terrorism act? Even though in this case it seems to have changed its spots it seems to be there as a threat to be misused by the authorities if they so deem. Why do I have a fear about a government and ministers that use the police to cover their incompetence? What should be done with the abuse of the terrorism act?

Even though in this case it seems to have changed its spots it seems to be there as a threat to be misused by the authorities if they so deem.

Why do I have a fear about a government and ministers that use the police to cover their incompetence?

]]> By: James Strachan http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/11/29/the-nature-of-democracy/#comment-8663 James Strachan Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:30:08 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2243#comment-8663 Some people have compared Damian Green's treatment with Zimbabwe. This is a bit over the top. A better comparison would be with South Africa, where the police and intelligence organisations have been systematically corrupted to support the interests of the ruling ANC. As here, anti terrorist legislation has been misused to protect the ruling party. In another parallel, the Speaker of the South African Parliament takes a very partisan - pro ANC - view of her duties. Isn't this a case for an emergency debate in the HoC ? It should certainly be asked for and, if the Speaker refuses, that would give a strong suspicion that his dabs are on the knife. Some people have compared Damian Green's treatment with Zimbabwe.

This is a bit over the top.

A better comparison would be with South Africa, where the police and intelligence organisations have been systematically corrupted to support the interests of the ruling ANC.

As here, anti terrorist legislation has been misused to protect the ruling party.

In another parallel, the Speaker of the South African Parliament takes a very partisan – pro ANC – view of her duties.

Isn't this a case for an emergency debate in the HoC ? It should certainly be asked for and, if the Speaker refuses, that would give a strong suspicion that his dabs are on the knife.

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