Comments on: Ladders and greasy poles http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 24 May 2012 13:47:51 +0000 hourly 1 By: adam http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9804 adam Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:30:34 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9804 good post good post

]]> By: adam http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9803 adam Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:29:29 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9803 you live in lalaland. dont believe UNICEF you live in lalaland.
dont believe UNICEF

]]> By: Robbie http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9802 Robbie Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:50:46 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9802 I come from a working class background and a broken family (my father left home when I was seven years old and we were left very poor). I studied hard and went on to study mathematics at Oxford and a computer science masters degree at Cambridge. This was twelve years ago. I never once felt that either of these institutions were biased against people from a poor background in any way. The dons admired anyone who took a great interest in learning and worked hard. Yet another expensive box ticking agency counting numbers of poor students making it to university, crying foul and then forcing numbers through by positive discrimination is not the solution, but it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with it. I come from a working class background and a broken family (my father left home when I was seven years old and we were left very poor).

I studied hard and went on to study mathematics at Oxford and a computer science masters degree at Cambridge. This was twelve years ago. I never once felt that either of these institutions were biased against people from a poor background in any way. The dons admired anyone who took a great interest in learning and worked hard.

Yet another expensive box ticking agency counting numbers of poor students making it to university, crying foul and then forcing numbers through by positive discrimination is not the solution, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we ended up with it.

]]> By: Bazman http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9801 Bazman Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:33:05 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9801 Kings, castles and dirty rascals. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/11/recession-protest A political elite mesmerised or brought up in great wealth putting forward policies that will have little or no impact on their personal lives. Not everyone can be a rocket scientist, self employed or a big boss. The size of the underclass in Britain is a scandal they just grab and do what they like as that is what a lot of the middle classes do. Self respect? It's over rated. Kings, castles and dirty rascals.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/11/recession-protest

A political elite mesmerised or brought up in great wealth putting forward policies that will have little or no impact on their personal lives.
Not everyone can be a rocket scientist, self employed or a big boss. The size of the underclass in Britain is a scandal they just grab and do what they like as that is what a lot of the middle classes do.
Self respect? It’s over rated.

]]> By: Jack Maturin http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9800 Jack Maturin Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:09:02 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9800 I think a lot of people who pay for private education are under the mistaken impression that it 'gives children confidence'. I think this is the wrong way round. As someone who survived a ghastly northern comprehensive, it's more that state schools 'destroy your confidence'. What private schools do is to 'preserve' the confidence of children, that already pre-exists, and which children already possess from a pre-school age. As we can see from the latest horrible state teaching adverts, the message from Whitehall is that they would like the following sorts of applicants: Morons, busy bodies, and control freaks - preferably all three in one package, if they can get it. The only way to survive in a state school is to obey, conform, and become part of the group. Peer pressure isolates non-conformist individuals and then crushes them; teachers practice crowd-control rather than individual teaching; and the general run-down condition of most state schools encourages an atmosphere of inevitable despair, anger, and frustration. Privatising them all is the only really answer. We must get the government out of our schools completely. Anything else is just re-arranging deck chairs. I think a lot of people who pay for private education are under the mistaken impression that it ‘gives children confidence’. I think this is the wrong way round. As someone who survived a ghastly northern comprehensive, it’s more that state schools ‘destroy your confidence’.
What private schools do is to ‘preserve’ the confidence of children, that already pre-exists, and which children already possess from a pre-school age.
As we can see from the latest horrible state teaching adverts, the message from Whitehall is that they would like the following sorts of applicants: Morons, busy bodies, and control freaks – preferably all three in one package, if they can get it.
The only way to survive in a state school is to obey, conform, and become part of the group. Peer pressure isolates non-conformist individuals and then crushes them; teachers practice crowd-control rather than individual teaching; and the general run-down condition of most state schools encourages an atmosphere of inevitable despair, anger, and frustration.
Privatising them all is the only really answer. We must get the government out of our schools completely. Anything else is just re-arranging deck chairs.

]]> By: FatBigot http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9799 FatBigot Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:43:27 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9799 Let me hazard a guess at what Mr Milburn and his merry men will say. It is hard to believe that this new super-quango will be concerned with the real issues identified in your piece, Mr Redwood, and in many of the comments. To do so would be to seek to assess the last 11 years of government education policy. That cannot be his task. He cannot have been appointed with a view to saying his old friend Tony and his new friend Gordon have presided over a disaster. My guess is that they will look at the professions themselves rather than at the quality of those aspiring to enter them. We can expect targets and regulation, forms, more forms and new local quangos to investigate and report on how well firms of solicitors, accountants and architects are conforming to the new regime. The sad thing about it is that some young people will be taken on in professional practices despite not having the skills and motivation to do the work to a decent standard. They will not benefit and nor will the firms, but an annual appraisal form will include a tick in the box marked "diversity" or is it "inclusion" or is it "social justice"? Even sadder is that those very same young people might well have been able to cope had they received a strong academic education of the type you and I, and many thousands of others, received despite coming from homes of very modest means. Let me hazard a guess at what Mr Milburn and his merry men will say.

It is hard to believe that this new super-quango will be concerned with the real issues identified in your piece, Mr Redwood, and in many of the comments. To do so would be to seek to assess the last 11 years of government education policy. That cannot be his task. He cannot have been appointed with a view to saying his old friend Tony and his new friend Gordon have presided over a disaster.

My guess is that they will look at the professions themselves rather than at the quality of those aspiring to enter them. We can expect targets and regulation, forms, more forms and new local quangos to investigate and report on how well firms of solicitors, accountants and architects are conforming to the new regime.

The sad thing about it is that some young people will be taken on in professional practices despite not having the skills and motivation to do the work to a decent standard. They will not benefit and nor will the firms, but an annual appraisal form will include a tick in the box marked “diversity” or is it “inclusion” or is it “social justice”?

Even sadder is that those very same young people might well have been able to cope had they received a strong academic education of the type you and I, and many thousands of others, received despite coming from homes of very modest means.

]]> By: no one http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9798 no one Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:45:23 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9798 ramping up the quality of schools on the worst public housing and inner city areas would be one of the best ways of encouraging some "good" in our society, and allowing poor kids to be funded through university without having to take out loans, sadly despite the rhetoric these schools remain terrible for many reasons, one such reason being if you were a half decent teacher would you work there? no didn't think you would public schools do put a positive spin on things which in a state school would be frowned upon, you only have to read Ranulph Fiennes autobiography to know that in a public school climbing the highest school roofs can lead to a career as an army officer and climber, the very clever kids at my school with similar talent for climbing the highest roofs were ARRESTED - there you see in one simple example how life is so different for both sets of kids I don't subscribe to the Michael Rose sentiments that "the reason so many senior military officers are ex public schools is because those schools produce the best leaders" clap trap either, on the contrary mostly useless public school officers are carried by hard working ex state kids around them, and they only do well due to the network they get, and the self selecting perceptions of the idiots higher up the selection at state schools by postcode rather than ability is the worst of all worlds, you get in the best state schools because your pushy parents can afford more expensive housing, this is the most damaging form of selection imaginable I've had public school folk and Oxbridge grads work for me many times, never been impressed really, but I certainly offered them more impartial and balanced opportunities than they (as a group on average) offer folk with my accent one of the best parts of working in the USA was the most senior management would not instantly judge you on your accent, they just didn't understand the significance, and rather they judged folk on substance rather than presentation - the sooner the UK move to that the better - for out current default often subconscious approach is very weak and bad for us all not many working class accents amongst Conservative MP's or front benchers, does not give the impression much of this is going to be helped by Conservatives, when really the party should empower folk from the worst estates as Mrs T did! these issues and more need sorting ramping up the quality of schools on the worst public housing and inner city areas would be one of the best ways of encouraging some “good” in our society, and allowing poor kids to be funded through university without having to take out loans, sadly despite the rhetoric these schools remain terrible for many reasons, one such reason being if you were a half decent teacher would you work there? no didn’t think you would
public schools do put a positive spin on things which in a state school would be frowned upon, you only have to read Ranulph Fiennes autobiography to know that in a public school climbing the highest school roofs can lead to a career as an army officer and climber, the very clever kids at my school with similar talent for climbing the highest roofs were ARRESTED – there you see in one simple example how life is so different for both sets of kids
I don’t subscribe to the Michael Rose sentiments that “the reason so many senior military officers are ex public schools is because those schools produce the best leaders” clap trap either, on the contrary mostly useless public school officers are carried by hard working ex state kids around them, and they only do well due to the network they get, and the self selecting perceptions of the idiots higher up
the selection at state schools by postcode rather than ability is the worst of all worlds, you get in the best state schools because your pushy parents can afford more expensive housing, this is the most damaging form of selection imaginable
I’ve had public school folk and Oxbridge grads work for me many times, never been impressed really, but I certainly offered them more impartial and balanced opportunities than they (as a group on average) offer folk with my accent
one of the best parts of working in the USA was the most senior management would not instantly judge you on your accent, they just didn’t understand the significance, and rather they judged folk on substance rather than presentation – the sooner the UK move to that the better – for out current default often subconscious approach is very weak and bad for us all
not many working class accents amongst Conservative MP’s or front benchers, does not give the impression much of this is going to be helped by Conservatives, when really the party should empower folk from the worst estates as Mrs T did!
these issues and more need sorting

]]> By: Simon http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9797 Simon Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:42:12 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9797 From what I see any spark of individual thought is crushed in State Schools, any sign of self confidence is undermined and a general culture of total control exists. Teachers make only negative comments on those ghastly diaries and nit pick the slightest thing that could be described as bad behaviour. Children are thrown out of schools at unprecedented rates for the slightest misdemeanour. All part of the general demonisation of young people in this country as described in reports from UNICEF, The Princes Trust and Barnardo's, even The One Show did a report on it recently. If you keep telling people they are bad they will certainly prove you right. From what I see any spark of individual thought is crushed in State Schools, any sign of self confidence is undermined and a general culture of total control exists. Teachers make only negative comments on those ghastly diaries and nit pick the slightest thing that could be described as bad behaviour. Children are thrown out of schools at unprecedented rates for the slightest misdemeanour. All part of the general demonisation of young people in this country as described in reports from UNICEF, The Princes Trust and Barnardo’s, even The One Show did a report on it recently. If you keep telling people they are bad they will certainly prove you right.

]]> By: DiscoveredJoys http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9796 DiscoveredJoys Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:37:35 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9796 ...if it is going to take a generation then the sooner we start the better. Grammar schools worked for me and there are almost certainly other ways too - but we know that what we have now (through state provision) is incapable of delivering what is needed. My old grammar school aimed at producing decent, well-educated boys - in that order. I suspect that moral relativism has done more damage than poor factual teaching. You can always look facts up, but finding examples of good grown up behaviour to live up to is a tougher challenge. …if it is going to take a generation then the sooner we start the better.

Grammar schools worked for me and there are almost certainly other ways too – but we know that what we have now (through state provision) is incapable of delivering what is needed.

My old grammar school aimed at producing decent, well-educated boys – in that order. I suspect that moral relativism has done more damage than poor factual teaching. You can always look facts up, but finding examples of good grown up behaviour to live up to is a tougher challenge.

]]> By: THE ESSEX BOYS http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/01/12/ladders-and-greasy-poles/#comment-9795 THE ESSEX BOYS Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:17:29 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=2589#comment-9795 2 thoughts... 1. INDEPENDENT STYLE EDUCATION...FREE OF CHARGE is the would-be conservative message we've advocated since 2004. Simply put those basics work as Council Estate 'oiks' like ourseves, with backgrounds similar to JR's, can testify. Uniforms, discipline, sports activities and esprit de corps helped give us enjoy more fulfilled lives than our respective supportive parents which was reward enough for them - bless 'em all! The State school system should be modified accordingly instead of trying to drag the independent and grammar schools down to state school levels as seems the ambition of Mr Balls. Believe us, Mr Milburn, as successful businessmen with happy family lives but from poor backgrounds we 4 are living examples of social mobility at its most effective! 2. THE TRADE ROUTE TO BEING YOUR OWN BOSS! We should let youngsters know that one of the best ways to get to run a business and have a successful life is to learn a trade rather than go to Uni like so many others who don't know what they want to do in life. Promote it as the SMART school leavers option! 2 thoughts…

1. INDEPENDENT STYLE EDUCATION…FREE OF CHARGE is the would-be conservative message we’ve advocated since 2004.
Simply put those basics work as Council Estate ‘oiks’ like ourseves, with backgrounds similar to JR’s, can testify.
Uniforms, discipline, sports activities and esprit de corps helped give us enjoy more fulfilled lives than our respective supportive parents which was reward enough for them – bless ‘em all!
The State school system should be modified accordingly instead of trying to drag the independent and grammar schools down to state school levels as seems the ambition of Mr Balls.
Believe us, Mr Milburn, as successful businessmen with happy family lives but from poor backgrounds we 4 are living examples of social mobility at its most effective!

2. THE TRADE ROUTE TO BEING YOUR OWN BOSS! We should let youngsters know that one of the best ways to get to run a business and have a successful life is to learn a trade rather than go to Uni like so many others who don’t know what they want to do in life. Promote it as the SMART school leavers option!

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