Comments on: Controlling public sector costs http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/ Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today's issues and tomorrow's problems Thu, 24 May 2012 17:35:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: alan jutson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16075 alan jutson Fri, 15 May 2009 11:07:02 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16075 John Thankyou for your feedback I understand your two points about MP's possibly not telling the truth to the Whips, but in the present system those MP's who vote as they are told, are not being true to the electorate. With regard to your other point: Vote for tax cuts, but not expenditure cuts, and possible dishonest MP's. Yes I can quite understand the risk of them saying one thing and doing (voting) another, it is a real risk, but you are supposed to be "honerable members" both men and women. Yes I do understand the attraction of having a record of voting. I suppose its a simple question of: Do we trust MP's to do the right thing, if they are given a secret ballot. How sad that it should come down to trust once more, and that is what would be questioned. John
Thankyou for your feedback
I understand your two points about MP’s possibly not telling the truth to the Whips, but in the present system those MP’s who vote as they are told, are not being true to the electorate.
With regard to your other point:
Vote for tax cuts, but not expenditure cuts, and possible dishonest MP’s.
Yes I can quite understand the risk of them saying one thing and doing (voting) another, it is a real risk, but you are supposed to be “honerable members” both men and women.
Yes I do understand the attraction of having a record of voting.

I suppose its a simple question of:
Do we trust MP’s to do the right thing, if they are given a secret ballot.
How sad that it should come down to trust once more, and that is what would be questioned.

]]> By: alan jutson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16074 alan jutson Fri, 15 May 2009 06:48:28 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16074 agreed. agreed.

]]> By: Brian Tomkinson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16073 Brian Tomkinson Thu, 14 May 2009 15:23:54 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16073 Denis, I share your scepticism regarding the political parties. They have not done a good job, have seriously let down the electorate and now have brought our democracy to breaking point. The thrust of my argument was that whilst there is an essential and justifiable focus on the scandal of MPs' expenses/allowances at the same time the economy is in a dreadful state. It seems to me that this Parliament is simply incapable of addressing the fundamental measures required to save our economy or anything else for that matter. We cannot limp on for another twelve months during which time untold further damage may be inflicted on both our economy and our democracy. Sadly, the long term task of restoring proper accountable democracy will not be resolved quickly but clearing out many of the current MPs would be a start. Denis,
I share your scepticism regarding the political parties. They have not done a good job, have seriously let down the electorate and now have brought our democracy to breaking point. The thrust of my argument was that whilst there is an essential and justifiable focus on the scandal of MPs’ expenses/allowances at the same time the economy is in a dreadful state. It seems to me that this Parliament is simply incapable of addressing the fundamental measures required to save our economy or anything else for that matter. We cannot limp on for another twelve months during which time untold further damage may be inflicted on both our economy and our democracy. Sadly, the long term task of restoring proper accountable democracy will not be resolved quickly but clearing out many of the current MPs would be a start.

]]> By: Janet Child http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16072 Janet Child Thu, 14 May 2009 13:20:30 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16072 It is time we moved away from leaders of the parties insisting on complete loyalty to them. MPs could all be Independents answerable to their constituents first and foremost and loosely affilliated to a particular party. All votes could then be in the interests of their constituents and eliminate the need for whips who as far as I can see as an outsider are there to bully people into voting in a certain way according to the dictats of the party. Ths would surely lead to votes being more representative of public opinion eg would we have so readily gone to war in Iraq? It is time we moved away from leaders of the parties insisting on complete loyalty to them. MPs could all be Independents answerable to their constituents first and foremost and loosely affilliated to a particular party. All votes could then be in the interests of their constituents and eliminate the need for whips who as far as I can see as an outsider are there to bully people into voting in a certain way according to the dictats of the party.

Ths would surely lead to votes being more representative of public opinion eg would we have so readily gone to war in Iraq?

]]> By: alan jutson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16071 alan jutson Thu, 14 May 2009 11:42:51 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16071 Dennis I agree with you in part. My own simple thoughts on this, is that it is the Party System that is the fault. The WHIPS seem to have almost TOTAL CONTROL over Party's Members, with regard to how they should vote, which is for the Party at all times. It appears to me that if any Party has an overall majority in Parliament then as far as most decisions are concerned, Democracy is out of the window. The result is a forgone conclusion, you may as well have cardboard cut outs as Members, as the GOVERNMENT WILL ALWAYS WIN. The Whips seem to me to be to be nothing less than the Party Leaders enforcers, which I could understand if they were supervising correct proceedure etc etc. But Vote as I say or find yourself de-selected next time, is that what constituants really want. ???????. Gone seem to be the days when some (but not all) MP's voted with their conscience on matters of state, which often served as the checks and balances on the rather more extreme policies. John. What is the reason for MP's being against secret ballots on all voting motions. After all Margaret Thatcher thought this was a good idea for all Trade Unions. Reply: I can see the attractions of secret ballots on all motions.It would cut the power of the whips and of a bullying government. There are two main arguments against. The one is orderly conduct of business needs a government to be able to carry most of its business, including some unpopular decisions. Secret ballots might mean MPs voting for tax reductions but not for the countervailing spending cuts. The other is MP honesty. Dishonest MPs could then lie about how they had voted on every issue, which the public might get annoyed about. There is something to be said for having a complete register of how we all vote on every subject. It would take a lot of detetctive work to ring every MP on an issue, ask them how they voted, only to discover what they said did not add up to the vote cast! Dennis
I agree with you in part.
My own simple thoughts on this, is that it is the Party System that is the fault.

The WHIPS seem to have almost TOTAL CONTROL over Party’s Members, with regard to how they should vote, which is for the Party at all times.

It appears to me that if any Party has an overall majority in Parliament then as far as most decisions are concerned, Democracy is out of the window.
The result is a forgone conclusion, you may as well have cardboard cut outs as Members, as the GOVERNMENT WILL ALWAYS WIN.

The Whips seem to me to be to be nothing less than the Party Leaders enforcers, which I could understand if they were supervising correct proceedure etc etc.
But Vote as I say or find yourself de-selected next time, is that what constituants really want. ???????.

Gone seem to be the days when some (but not all) MP’s voted with their conscience on matters of state, which often served as the checks and balances on the rather more extreme policies.

John.
What is the reason for MP’s being against secret ballots on all voting motions. After all Margaret Thatcher thought this was a good idea for all Trade Unions.

Reply: I can see the attractions of secret ballots on all motions.It would cut the power of the whips and of a bullying government.
There are two main arguments against. The one is orderly conduct of business needs a government to be able to carry most of its business, including some unpopular decisions. Secret ballots might mean MPs voting for tax reductions but not for the countervailing spending cuts.
The other is MP honesty. Dishonest MPs could then lie about how they had voted on every issue, which the public might get annoyed about. There is something to be said for having a complete register of how we all vote on every subject. It would take a lot of detetctive work to ring every MP on an issue, ask them how they voted, only to discover what they said did not add up to the vote cast!

]]> By: Paul http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16070 Paul Thu, 14 May 2009 10:24:10 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16070 John, I would be interested to know your views on this. My County Council ( Tory) now runs in competition with local businesses the following businesses funded with tax payers money. Travel agency, coach company, bulding regulations consultancy, publishing and magazine empire, recruitment agency, and a TV station among many others. Currently they don't compete with any of my businesses but they are working on it. This morning I punctured a car tyre on hitting a pothole on a main A road. The pothole count is huge just within 10 miles of where I live. Oh of course my council also lost £50 million in Iceland, the CEO is on in excess of £200k per annum and Council Tax is up again. For the first time in my life I will not be voting Tory in the next County Council elections Reply: Don't go and vote for people who want more spending and more Council trading! John,

I would be interested to know your views on this. My County Council ( Tory) now runs in competition with local businesses the following businesses funded with tax payers money. Travel agency, coach company, bulding regulations consultancy, publishing and magazine empire, recruitment agency, and a TV station among many others. Currently they don’t compete with any of my businesses but they are working on it. This morning I punctured a car tyre on hitting a pothole on a main A road. The pothole count is huge just within 10 miles of where I live.

Oh of course my council also lost £50 million in Iceland, the CEO is on in excess of £200k per annum and Council Tax is up again.

For the first time in my life I will not be voting Tory in the next County Council elections

Reply: Don’t go and vote for people who want more spending and more Council trading!

]]> By: Denis Cooper http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16069 Denis Cooper Thu, 14 May 2009 10:19:06 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16069 Unfortunately, whatever else may change I don't see how a general election would lead to any improvement whatsoever in our political system. For example, the otherwise different reactions by Brown and Cameron to the expenses scandal have this in common: they both assume that as party leaders they have seats in our Parliament within their personal gift. Brown threatened that Labour MPs who voted against his proposals would be de-selected, without any reference even to their constituency Labour party groups, let alone their constituents. Similarly Cameron threatened that Tory MPs who refused to pay back excessive expenses would be de-selected, without any reference even to their constituency Tory party groups, let alone their constituents. These are just two men, two citizens, who apparently have the power to decide who shall, and who shall not, be the elected representatives of millions of citizens, and who all too easily assume that they have the right to do so. And as far as Cameron is concerned, his only proposal for reform of the system is to arbitrarily reduce the number of those elected representatives of the people. A move which, apart from other harmful effects, can only tend to further centralise power within the three main political parties - and this is from a party which claims to have been converted to "localism" - and moreover tend to further entrench the positions of those three parties vis-a-vis new or smaller parties, and independents. Something pretty radical needs to be done to curb the overweening power of patronage exercised by the cabals controlling the main political parties, or they will be the death of democracy in this country. Unfortunately, whatever else may change I don’t see how a general election would lead to any improvement whatsoever in our political system.

For example, the otherwise different reactions by Brown and Cameron to the expenses scandal have this in common: they both assume that as party leaders they have seats in our Parliament within their personal gift.

Brown threatened that Labour MPs who voted against his proposals would be de-selected, without any reference even to their constituency Labour party groups, let alone their constituents.

Similarly Cameron threatened that Tory MPs who refused to pay back excessive expenses would be de-selected, without any reference even to their constituency Tory party groups, let alone their constituents.

These are just two men, two citizens, who apparently have the power to decide who shall, and who shall not, be the elected representatives of millions of citizens, and who all too easily assume that they have the right to do so.

And as far as Cameron is concerned, his only proposal for reform of the system is to arbitrarily reduce the number of those elected representatives of the people.

A move which, apart from other harmful effects, can only tend to further centralise power within the three main political parties – and this is from a party which claims to have been converted to “localism” – and moreover tend to further entrench the positions of those three parties vis-a-vis new or smaller parties, and independents.

Something pretty radical needs to be done to curb the overweening power of patronage exercised by the cabals controlling the main political parties, or they will be the death of democracy in this country.

]]> By: Brian Tomkinson http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16068 Brian Tomkinson Thu, 14 May 2009 08:46:43 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16068 The scandal over MPs' expenses/allowances is symptomatic of the major failure of government and parliament to control public spending. At the heart of the problem is the failure of MPs to recognise that the money they spend on themselves or on any government spending is NOT their money. Too many, as soon as they enter parliament (no doubt many even before), seem to have an attitude that taxpayers' money is their money to do with as they wish. This is exemplified so clearly and vividly by the way in which allowances and expenses have been claimed and the nature of the items that MPs thought we taxpayers should pay for. MPs no longer see themselves as the servants of the people but as their masters and as such they are avaricious for a lifestyle to go with that position. The country is suffering the most severe economic crisis in most of our life times. This rotten parliament is incapable of even beginning to steer the right course. There should be dissolution of parliament and a general election. The scandal over MPs’ expenses/allowances is symptomatic of the major failure of government and parliament to control public spending. At the heart of the problem is the failure of MPs to recognise that the money they spend on themselves or on any government spending is NOT their money. Too many, as soon as they enter parliament (no doubt many even before), seem to have an attitude that taxpayers’ money is their money to do with as they wish. This is exemplified so clearly and vividly by the way in which allowances and expenses have been claimed and the nature of the items that MPs thought we taxpayers should pay for. MPs no longer see themselves as the servants of the people but as their masters and as such they are avaricious for a lifestyle to go with that position. The country is suffering the most severe economic crisis in most of our life times. This rotten parliament is incapable of even beginning to steer the right course. There should be dissolution of parliament and a general election.

]]> By: figurewizard http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16067 figurewizard Thu, 14 May 2009 08:42:28 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16067 More than once the Government has stated its determination to cut out waste in the public sector; so starting with the top of the tree I have a suggestion. In my previous business life some twenty members of sales and other staff often needed to stay away from home from time to time. There were other expenses too of course such as running the company car, telephone etc. Our rule was however was that all such staff had to regularly submit their schedules, known to us as 'journey plans', two weeks ahead. Although these were principally used as a tool for management to take an advance view as to individual sales and marketing priorities, they were also used by the accounts office to validate claims. Anything that appeared anomalous was referred to the sales director's office for clarification. In this age of blackberries and the like; all of which are easily downloadable and transmittable, I see no reason why such an approach should not now be considered for MPs. More than once the Government has stated its determination to cut out waste in the public sector; so starting with the top of the tree I have a suggestion.

In my previous business life some twenty members of sales and other staff often needed to stay away from home from time to time. There were other expenses too of course such as running the company car, telephone etc. Our rule was however was that all such staff had to regularly submit their schedules, known to us as ‘journey plans’, two weeks ahead.

Although these were principally used as a tool for management to take an advance view as to individual sales and marketing priorities, they were also used by the accounts office to validate claims. Anything that appeared anomalous was referred to the sales director’s office for clarification. In this age of blackberries and the like; all of which are easily downloadable and transmittable, I see no reason why such an approach should not now be considered for MPs.

]]> By: John Redwood http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/14/controlling-public-sector-costs/#comment-16066 John Redwood Thu, 14 May 2009 08:30:52 +0000 http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3681#comment-16066 Each case is different and needs to be judged on its merits and after consideration of the evidence and circumstances. Each case is different and needs to be judged on its merits and after consideration of the evidence and circumstances.

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