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	<title>Comments on: Tax can be taxing</title>
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		<title>By: Mick Anderson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16878</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 09:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16878</guid>
		<description>One of the other jokes about accountants - you can tell an extrovert accountant because when in a meeting, he looks at your shoes instead of his own.

So, ignoring the question of  how an accountant can be so bold as to contribute to a blog....

Yes, simple is good. In my engineering terms, use Occams Razor, or the acronym KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

However, I&#039;m not sure I agree with some of the detail. There is no good reason for taxing people on moving house (stamp duty). There is an argument for taxing people if they buy a second home, on the same principle that they are charged CGT on the profit when they sell. But (to quote Eccles) everybody has to be somewhere, and taxing house purchases is a little bit like taxing other vital parts of life such as food. Just because a large chunk of money is changing hands should not automatically mean that the Government has to grab a percentage of it.

Fairness is a fine principle to base the tax system on, but it also suffers from perspective. For example, all MPs start from the basis that the allowances and expenses priviliges that they enjoy are &quot;fair&quot;, but it&#039;s a minority view....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the other jokes about accountants &#8211; you can tell an extrovert accountant because when in a meeting, he looks at your shoes instead of his own.</p>
<p>So, ignoring the question of  how an accountant can be so bold as to contribute to a blog&#8230;.</p>
<p>Yes, simple is good. In my engineering terms, use Occams Razor, or the acronym KISS (keep it simple, stupid).</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not sure I agree with some of the detail. There is no good reason for taxing people on moving house (stamp duty). There is an argument for taxing people if they buy a second home, on the same principle that they are charged CGT on the profit when they sell. But (to quote Eccles) everybody has to be somewhere, and taxing house purchases is a little bit like taxing other vital parts of life such as food. Just because a large chunk of money is changing hands should not automatically mean that the Government has to grab a percentage of it.</p>
<p>Fairness is a fine principle to base the tax system on, but it also suffers from perspective. For example, all MPs start from the basis that the allowances and expenses priviliges that they enjoy are &#8220;fair&#8221;, but it&#8217;s a minority view&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mick Anderson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16877</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 08:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16877</guid>
		<description>All the banking stuff is a little off-topic - apologies.

The banking legislation I was referring to was the UK equivalent to the US &quot;Glass-Seagal&quot; act. This is what kept retail banking and investment banking seperate since the Great Depression of the 1930s.

The progressive repeal of this legislation is one of the significant unlocks allowing the UK retail banks that were &quot;too big to fail&quot; to dig themselves into such a hole.

If this had not been the case, perhaps the High Street brands (HBOS, Northern Rock and to name the most obvious) would not have been able to lose so much money gambling on international markets.

Keeping investment banking seperate means that they would have been allowed to fail (like Lehman Brothers Bank) rather than the politically motivated requirement to keep them afloat at all costs.

As I understand it, the Americans started to repeal Glass-Seagal in the early 1990s, and the British Government felt that (to keep London at the financial cutting-edge) they had to follow suit.

Incidentally, it also seems to be why traditional investment banks (such as Morgan Stanley) started issuing credit cards - the mirror of why the UK banks could make themselves vulnerable. It meant they could claim to be a retail bank and benefit from the corresponding corporate protection.

However, there is also the insurance problem that seems to have infected the banking industry. The idea that you can take as wild a risk as you want as long as it&#039;s covered by insurance. The link is then broken between the idea that a bank can only lend (or risk) what it can afford to lose - the traditional &quot;boring banking&quot; where you went on bended knee to your local branch manager if you wanted a mortgage or overdraft.

Associated with this is the idea that you can &quot;sell&quot; packages of loans on, including some of those toxic mortgages from the US. Again, insurance was meant to ensure that nobody could ever lose, but nobody considered the possibility that the situation would grow to such an extent that the insurance companies could not cover all of the possible losses (AIG anyone?!).

So, yes, the banks have been collectively stupid, especially in forgetting that they used to work in a particular way for a very good reason - it was safe. It required &quot;due diligence&quot; in their operations, for which insurance policies should never have been considered a substitute.

But, if they are to have the ultimate in taxpayer protection, they should have some limits imposed on them. They can either have no protection but complete freedom (as the old investment banks had), or complete safety backed by the taxpayer, but limited areas of operation (like the old retail banks). For them to be completely protected but able to demand freedom to take the wildest risks is not reasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the banking stuff is a little off-topic &#8211; apologies.</p>
<p>The banking legislation I was referring to was the UK equivalent to the US &#8220;Glass-Seagal&#8221; act. This is what kept retail banking and investment banking seperate since the Great Depression of the 1930s.</p>
<p>The progressive repeal of this legislation is one of the significant unlocks allowing the UK retail banks that were &#8220;too big to fail&#8221; to dig themselves into such a hole.</p>
<p>If this had not been the case, perhaps the High Street brands (HBOS, Northern Rock and to name the most obvious) would not have been able to lose so much money gambling on international markets.</p>
<p>Keeping investment banking seperate means that they would have been allowed to fail (like Lehman Brothers Bank) rather than the politically motivated requirement to keep them afloat at all costs.</p>
<p>As I understand it, the Americans started to repeal Glass-Seagal in the early 1990s, and the British Government felt that (to keep London at the financial cutting-edge) they had to follow suit.</p>
<p>Incidentally, it also seems to be why traditional investment banks (such as Morgan Stanley) started issuing credit cards &#8211; the mirror of why the UK banks could make themselves vulnerable. It meant they could claim to be a retail bank and benefit from the corresponding corporate protection.</p>
<p>However, there is also the insurance problem that seems to have infected the banking industry. The idea that you can take as wild a risk as you want as long as it&#8217;s covered by insurance. The link is then broken between the idea that a bank can only lend (or risk) what it can afford to lose &#8211; the traditional &#8220;boring banking&#8221; where you went on bended knee to your local branch manager if you wanted a mortgage or overdraft.</p>
<p>Associated with this is the idea that you can &#8220;sell&#8221; packages of loans on, including some of those toxic mortgages from the US. Again, insurance was meant to ensure that nobody could ever lose, but nobody considered the possibility that the situation would grow to such an extent that the insurance companies could not cover all of the possible losses (AIG anyone?!).</p>
<p>So, yes, the banks have been collectively stupid, especially in forgetting that they used to work in a particular way for a very good reason &#8211; it was safe. It required &#8220;due diligence&#8221; in their operations, for which insurance policies should never have been considered a substitute.</p>
<p>But, if they are to have the ultimate in taxpayer protection, they should have some limits imposed on them. They can either have no protection but complete freedom (as the old investment banks had), or complete safety backed by the taxpayer, but limited areas of operation (like the old retail banks). For them to be completely protected but able to demand freedom to take the wildest risks is not reasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: Lola</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16876</link>
		<dc:creator>Lola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 06:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16876</guid>
		<description>I agree about the complications and confiscatory nature of taxation.  I do not agree about the relaxation of financial regulation.

Relaxing, or preferably completely removing, financial regulation is a Good Thing.  The exception is to keep solvency and capital adequacy rules for banks.  But note, this is only necessary when they operate as a cartel supplier of a monopoly product as thye do in the UK.

The retail banks have been collectively stupid, but remember they are only banks.  The reason they went adventuring with our money is because Brown hosed them with poor qulaity cash at too low a price combined with his policies that made debt more attractive than equity risk capital.  The banks became Brown&#039;s unwitting (witless?) tools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about the complications and confiscatory nature of taxation.  I do not agree about the relaxation of financial regulation.</p>
<p>Relaxing, or preferably completely removing, financial regulation is a Good Thing.  The exception is to keep solvency and capital adequacy rules for banks.  But note, this is only necessary when they operate as a cartel supplier of a monopoly product as thye do in the UK.</p>
<p>The retail banks have been collectively stupid, but remember they are only banks.  The reason they went adventuring with our money is because Brown hosed them with poor qulaity cash at too low a price combined with his policies that made debt more attractive than equity risk capital.  The banks became Brown&#8217;s unwitting (witless?) tools.</p>
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		<title>By: Acorn</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16875</link>
		<dc:creator>Acorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 06:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16875</guid>
		<description>Robert, thanks for reply.  Basically I agree with you.  My concept of LVT would have it as a local tax yielding a significant proportion of local government net spending and directly under local taxpayer control.  LVT would put a cost to holding land out of the market, waiting for local council infrastructure and planning permission to raise its value several fold.

There would have to be balancing element for low LVT counties, probably from national taxes rather than local taxes.  Also, the proportion of national taxes raised and spent within a county would have to be published along with which department or quango was spending it.  Locals would then be able to see, or not, the value added to their community of such spending, and challenge it if necessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, thanks for reply.  Basically I agree with you.  My concept of LVT would have it as a local tax yielding a significant proportion of local government net spending and directly under local taxpayer control.  LVT would put a cost to holding land out of the market, waiting for local council infrastructure and planning permission to raise its value several fold.</p>
<p>There would have to be balancing element for low LVT counties, probably from national taxes rather than local taxes.  Also, the proportion of national taxes raised and spent within a county would have to be published along with which department or quango was spending it.  Locals would then be able to see, or not, the value added to their community of such spending, and challenge it if necessary.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16874</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 02:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16874</guid>
		<description>They should be in an untenable position but they won&#039;t be. I can&#039;t see Gordon Brown culling half of his ministers even if he knows that a lot of them will lose seats. He must realise it&#039;s over now, the other cabinet members know which is why we have the last desperate throw of the electoral reform dice. I&#039;m up for electoral reform but not out of desperation, it has to be done right. Would getting rid of the Lords in favour of a PR English parliament work? I like directly elected MPs in the commons but noone I know cares or knows anything about this kind of thing. Anyway, all that being said, it&#039;s also clear that Kirkbride&#039;s position is untenable, not because of the overblown family member stuff, but because she must have been in on the double claiming. Cameron seems to making supportive noises, I guess either because he doesn&#039;t want to lose a rare lady MP or because of a deal done on the MacKay resignation. They&#039;re the only theories I can come up with anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should be in an untenable position but they won&#8217;t be. I can&#8217;t see Gordon Brown culling half of his ministers even if he knows that a lot of them will lose seats. He must realise it&#8217;s over now, the other cabinet members know which is why we have the last desperate throw of the electoral reform dice. I&#8217;m up for electoral reform but not out of desperation, it has to be done right. Would getting rid of the Lords in favour of a PR English parliament work? I like directly elected MPs in the commons but noone I know cares or knows anything about this kind of thing. Anyway, all that being said, it&#8217;s also clear that Kirkbride&#8217;s position is untenable, not because of the overblown family member stuff, but because she must have been in on the double claiming. Cameron seems to making supportive noises, I guess either because he doesn&#8217;t want to lose a rare lady MP or because of a deal done on the MacKay resignation. They&#8217;re the only theories I can come up with anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16873</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 21:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16873</guid>
		<description>I am an accountant and have been waiting a long time for this debate.

One of the jokes about accountants is that an accountant is someone who solves a problem you didn&#039;t know you had in a way you can&#039;t understand.

This is true their are many traps in the tax system ready to catch the unwary. I have been preparing accounts and tax full time for twenty years and found another one that I wasn&#039;t aware of today so I don&#039;t know how the novice can do it.

There is also the presumption in the tax system that you are guilty until proven innocent.

(Allegation against Revenue left out -ed)

Further there are glaring inequalities to earn £33,000 net a small company would pay £7,000 in tax whilst an employee would pay £20,000 in tax and national insurance.

The tax system needs to be simplified so that the tail doesn&#039;t wag the dog, their needs to be more fairness and their needs to be stability.

I would suggest the following proposals:


The main mechanism for raising tax or fiscal stimulus should be by adjusting the basic rate of income tax. This is easy to implement and hard to avoid.

Tax on owner managed companies needs revised to stop the abuse of taking a small salary and paying dividends that has taken place over the last ten years.

Stamp duty should be set at 1% on all transactions over £150,000 - a typical family home in a decent area is over £250,000 and 3% stamp duty is too much.

Changes to VAT should be kept to a minnimum as it is very hard tax to administer. I would add that the price of an item is based on supply and demand not the cost of bringing it to market.

Company car tax needs adjusted so that an average car is taxed at an average rate. There is no point in expecting a sales rep who travels a lot of motorway miles to drive a smart car and at present a car such as a Volkwagen Passatt occurs a benefit in kind of 35% of the list price.

The tax credit system cannot be abolished due to the hardships it would cause, but it should be recognised that it is a silly system when someone can pay tax and get tax back. Over time this system should be phased out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an accountant and have been waiting a long time for this debate.</p>
<p>One of the jokes about accountants is that an accountant is someone who solves a problem you didn&#8217;t know you had in a way you can&#8217;t understand.</p>
<p>This is true their are many traps in the tax system ready to catch the unwary. I have been preparing accounts and tax full time for twenty years and found another one that I wasn&#8217;t aware of today so I don&#8217;t know how the novice can do it.</p>
<p>There is also the presumption in the tax system that you are guilty until proven innocent.</p>
<p>(Allegation against Revenue left out -ed)</p>
<p>Further there are glaring inequalities to earn £33,000 net a small company would pay £7,000 in tax whilst an employee would pay £20,000 in tax and national insurance.</p>
<p>The tax system needs to be simplified so that the tail doesn&#8217;t wag the dog, their needs to be more fairness and their needs to be stability.</p>
<p>I would suggest the following proposals:</p>
<p>The main mechanism for raising tax or fiscal stimulus should be by adjusting the basic rate of income tax. This is easy to implement and hard to avoid.</p>
<p>Tax on owner managed companies needs revised to stop the abuse of taking a small salary and paying dividends that has taken place over the last ten years.</p>
<p>Stamp duty should be set at 1% on all transactions over £150,000 &#8211; a typical family home in a decent area is over £250,000 and 3% stamp duty is too much.</p>
<p>Changes to VAT should be kept to a minnimum as it is very hard tax to administer. I would add that the price of an item is based on supply and demand not the cost of bringing it to market.</p>
<p>Company car tax needs adjusted so that an average car is taxed at an average rate. There is no point in expecting a sales rep who travels a lot of motorway miles to drive a smart car and at present a car such as a Volkwagen Passatt occurs a benefit in kind of 35% of the list price.</p>
<p>The tax credit system cannot be abolished due to the hardships it would cause, but it should be recognised that it is a silly system when someone can pay tax and get tax back. Over time this system should be phased out.</p>
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		<title>By: Emil</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16872</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 21:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16872</guid>
		<description>Indeed, Darling is getting away with murder whilst the media are following the &quot;Respect&quot; led campaign against Julie Kirkbride (who I have little sympathy with BTW, but surely should not be the headline news compared to what leading members of the cabinet are seemingly getting away with)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Darling is getting away with murder whilst the media are following the &#8220;Respect&#8221; led campaign against Julie Kirkbride (who I have little sympathy with BTW, but surely should not be the headline news compared to what leading members of the cabinet are seemingly getting away with)</p>
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		<title>By: SJB</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16871</link>
		<dc:creator>SJB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 17:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16871</guid>
		<description>Robert: &quot;We have to get people connected to paying directly for services that their local council provides ...&quot;

Didn&#039;t the Conservative Party try about 20 years ago with the Community Charge?

I was rather intrigued about the proposed new citizen&#039;s initiative mentioned in Mr Cameron&#039;s speech. For instance, if a local referendum votes in favour of free bus travel then who will finance the scheme?

http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2009/05/David_Cameron_Fixing_Broken_Politics.aspx

Incidentally, how much (ball-park figure) will it cost to run a local referendum?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert: &#8220;We have to get people connected to paying directly for services that their local council provides &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t the Conservative Party try about 20 years ago with the Community Charge?</p>
<p>I was rather intrigued about the proposed new citizen&#8217;s initiative mentioned in Mr Cameron&#8217;s speech. For instance, if a local referendum votes in favour of free bus travel then who will finance the scheme?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2009/05/David_Cameron_Fixing_Broken_Politics.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2009/05/David_Cameron_Fixing_Broken_Politics.aspx</a></p>
<p>Incidentally, how much (ball-park figure) will it cost to run a local referendum?</p>
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		<title>By: alan jutson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16870</link>
		<dc:creator>alan jutson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 16:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16870</guid>
		<description>Just shows how out of touch he is with the people of this Country and the way we live.
Brown has not got a clue what his own Party MP&#039;s are up to, let alone the Cabinet.

Wonder if he can fill in a Tax Return correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just shows how out of touch he is with the people of this Country and the way we live.<br />
Brown has not got a clue what his own Party MP&#8217;s are up to, let alone the Cabinet.</p>
<p>Wonder if he can fill in a Tax Return correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: THE ESSEX BOYS</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2009/05/27/tax-can-be-taxing/#comment-16869</link>
		<dc:creator>THE ESSEX BOYS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 15:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=3755#comment-16869</guid>
		<description>THROWING AWAY OUR &#039;SHOCK-HORROR&#039; HAT FOR A MINUTE
WE HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WE BLOGGERS ARE HAVING A FIELD MONTH WITH THE EXPENSES ISSUE! WE ALSO CHORTLED AT BROWN&#039;S REMARKS ON GMTV SO WERE AMUSED TO READ THIS:

“In an interview on GMTV this morning, Brown said that he was “angry and appalled” by what had been happening at Westminster. “If my father, my parents, thought that these things were going on in the House of Commons, they would be utterly appalled,” he said.”
Who gives a rag eye boll**k what Brown’s father would of thought?

REPLY

He’s still trying to pretend that that moral compass of his is working!

REPLY

Hmmm but the magnet fell out, so it’s pointing towards H.M.P. Pentonville.

IF ONLY...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THROWING AWAY OUR &#8216;SHOCK-HORROR&#8217; HAT FOR A MINUTE<br />
WE HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WE BLOGGERS ARE HAVING A FIELD MONTH WITH THE EXPENSES ISSUE! WE ALSO CHORTLED AT BROWN&#8217;S REMARKS ON GMTV SO WERE AMUSED TO READ THIS:</p>
<p>“In an interview on GMTV this morning, Brown said that he was “angry and appalled” by what had been happening at Westminster. “If my father, my parents, thought that these things were going on in the House of Commons, they would be utterly appalled,” he said.”<br />
Who gives a rag eye boll**k what Brown’s father would of thought?</p>
<p>REPLY</p>
<p>He’s still trying to pretend that that moral compass of his is working!</p>
<p>REPLY</p>
<p>Hmmm but the magnet fell out, so it’s pointing towards H.M.P. Pentonville.</p>
<p>IF ONLY&#8230;</p>
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