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	<title>Comments on: Follow the science?</title>
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	<description>Incisive and topical campaigns and commentary on today&#039;s issues and tomorrow&#039;s problems</description>
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		<title>By: Stuart Fairney</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22023</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Fairney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 08:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22023</guid>
		<description>Ah the well known industrial angineer and polytheist 
  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri&lt;/a&gt; 
 
We can trust him! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah the well known industrial angineer and polytheist<br />
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri</a> </p>
<p>We can trust him!</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsay McDougall</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22022</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay McDougall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22022</guid>
		<description>Hitler was not a rational social Darwinist. He had some totally baked ideas about the genetic characteristics of arbitarily selected &quot;racial&quot; groups, which he acted upon but never attempted to verify. 
 
Rigorous research into genetic inheritance would be well worth undertaking but our &quot;liberal&quot; intelligensia would scream like stuck pigs if anyone proposed a programme. Politically correct people say that if the unemployment rate is higher among people of (A particular -ed) ethnicity, there must be discrimination against them. How do they know? Have they undertaken research into the mean and distribution of intelligence (e.g. as measured by IQ or aptitude tests) of the UK&#039;s indiginous people and those of people of (the selected ethnicity-ed)? Of course not. So their assertion of evidence of discriminatrion has no scientific basis. 
 
There is at least one area in which social Darwinism would be welcome and that it the treatment of old age. The great virtue of human beings is their ability to reason. Once dementia sets in, what is the point of life? We need to get the medical profession under control. Once a person is known to be in the grip of dementia, even in its early stages, physical ailments should be left untreated by the NHS except for relief of symptoms. By all means slow down the progress of the dementia if that is possible. 
 
You don&#039;t need to be a Nazi to practice benign neglect. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler was not a rational social Darwinist. He had some totally baked ideas about the genetic characteristics of arbitarily selected &quot;racial&quot; groups, which he acted upon but never attempted to verify. </p>
<p>Rigorous research into genetic inheritance would be well worth undertaking but our &quot;liberal&quot; intelligensia would scream like stuck pigs if anyone proposed a programme. Politically correct people say that if the unemployment rate is higher among people of (A particular -ed) ethnicity, there must be discrimination against them. How do they know? Have they undertaken research into the mean and distribution of intelligence (e.g. as measured by IQ or aptitude tests) of the UK&#039;s indiginous people and those of people of (the selected ethnicity-ed)? Of course not. So their assertion of evidence of discriminatrion has no scientific basis. </p>
<p>There is at least one area in which social Darwinism would be welcome and that it the treatment of old age. The great virtue of human beings is their ability to reason. Once dementia sets in, what is the point of life? We need to get the medical profession under control. Once a person is known to be in the grip of dementia, even in its early stages, physical ailments should be left untreated by the NHS except for relief of symptoms. By all means slow down the progress of the dementia if that is possible. </p>
<p>You don&#039;t need to be a Nazi to practice benign neglect.</p>
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		<title>By: TomTom</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22021</link>
		<dc:creator>TomTom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 08:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22021</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;n 1912 a cross party group introduced the &#8220;Feeble-minded Persons (Control) Bill&#8221; to the Uk Commons. &#8220;The object of this Bill is to regularise the lives,and,if possible, to prevent the increasing propagation of half witted people&#8221;.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
The Eugenics legislation with forced sterilisation passed by the Nazis as part of the T-4 Program was rescinded in the Soviet Occupation Zone but retained in the US and British Zones. 
 
As for &quot;Science&quot; - are we talking about that Certainty that the Ptolemaic View gave us or the Uncertainty that Galileo and Copernicus introduced ? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>n 1912 a cross party group introduced the &ldquo;Feeble-minded Persons (Control) Bill&rdquo; to the Uk Commons. &ldquo;The object of this Bill is to regularise the lives,and,if possible, to prevent the increasing propagation of half witted people&rdquo;.</i> </p>
<p>The Eugenics legislation with forced sterilisation passed by the Nazis as part of the T-4 Program was rescinded in the Soviet Occupation Zone but retained in the US and British Zones. </p>
<p>As for &quot;Science&quot; &#8211; are we talking about that Certainty that the Ptolemaic View gave us or the Uncertainty that Galileo and Copernicus introduced ?</p>
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		<title>By: james harries</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22020</link>
		<dc:creator>james harries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22020</guid>
		<description>So many good comments that I&#039;m surprised noone has mentioned Beethoven yet. Born and baptised at once he was not expected to live. Only one of his other 6 siblings did. Probably syphilitic in the womb, descended from (to say the least) some pretty dodgy genetic material... What doctor wouldn&#039;t have signed the abortion consent form? 
And yet... d-d-d-DA! 
(OK he did write the EU national anthem, but you can&#039;t have everything, and besides he was deaf by then.) 
 
And thanks for the recommendation for the Roughgarden book, going on my wish list right away. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So many good comments that I&#039;m surprised noone has mentioned Beethoven yet. Born and baptised at once he was not expected to live. Only one of his other 6 siblings did. Probably syphilitic in the womb, descended from (to say the least) some pretty dodgy genetic material&#8230; What doctor wouldn&#039;t have signed the abortion consent form?<br />
And yet&#8230; d-d-d-DA!<br />
(OK he did write the EU national anthem, but you can&#039;t have everything, and besides he was deaf by then.) </p>
<p>And thanks for the recommendation for the Roughgarden book, going on my wish list right away.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen Responsible</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22019</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen Responsible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 19:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22019</guid>
		<description>I agree. Our policy makers need to look at all aspects- moral, financial, cultural, religious, etc. as well as the science. We elect politicians to do this- not scientists. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. Our policy makers need to look at all aspects- moral, financial, cultural, religious, etc. as well as the science. We elect politicians to do this- not scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Walker</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22018</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22018</guid>
		<description>Absolutely right, John.  We sometimes talk about the fallacy of moving from &#039;is&#039; to &#039;ought&#039;.  It&#039;s normally used of morality, but it&#039;s equally true of politics: just because the science tells us how the world *is* doesn&#039;t mean it determines how we *ought* to act towards it.  It informs our actions, of course, but doesn&#039;t determine them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely right, John.  We sometimes talk about the fallacy of moving from &#8216;is&#8217; to &#8216;ought&#8217;.  It&#8217;s normally used of morality, but it&#8217;s equally true of politics: just because the science tells us how the world *is* doesn&#8217;t mean it determines how we *ought* to act towards it.  It informs our actions, of course, but doesn&#8217;t determine them.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Craig</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22017</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22017</guid>
		<description>I have asked on a substantial number of websites &amp; in letters sent to newspapers &amp; journalists across Britain &amp; the world aski8ng if any of them can identify 2 scientists, not paid by government, who have said we face catastrophic glo9bal warming. Of a number of replies the only name I have been given (by an Independent editor) was Professor Lovelock (a genuine belief but he is a maverick). It has lomg been apparent that large amounts of government money were available (&#163;13.7 million in the CRU leader&#039;s case) for those willing to say warming was real. Scepticism, on the other hand, guaranteed one became an unperson. In the circumstances it is unremarkable that the outspoken sceptics are largely retired professors. 
 
It is a very strange sort of &quot;consensus&quot; which can only produce 1 member not paid to be there. 
 
It is also clearly dishonest of politicians who have ensured this &quot;consensus&quot; purely by paying for it, to now claim they were only following it. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have asked on a substantial number of websites &amp; in letters sent to newspapers &amp; journalists across Britain &amp; the world aski8ng if any of them can identify 2 scientists, not paid by government, who have said we face catastrophic glo9bal warming. Of a number of replies the only name I have been given (by an Independent editor) was Professor Lovelock (a genuine belief but he is a maverick). It has lomg been apparent that large amounts of government money were available (&pound;13.7 million in the CRU leader&#039;s case) for those willing to say warming was real. Scepticism, on the other hand, guaranteed one became an unperson. In the circumstances it is unremarkable that the outspoken sceptics are largely retired professors. </p>
<p>It is a very strange sort of &quot;consensus&quot; which can only produce 1 member not paid to be there. </p>
<p>It is also clearly dishonest of politicians who have ensured this &quot;consensus&quot; purely by paying for it, to now claim they were only following it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22016</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22016</guid>
		<description>Are you another believer in the God Delusion?  Dawkins actually supplied the analytical tools to understand religions&#039; role in humans in producing the idea of the meme.  Unfortunately, he is so religiously atheist that he fails to appreciate that religions are very successful memes that have survival value (in much the same way as families enhance survival value).  Concentrating on wars between religions and on their impact on widespread scientific understanding fails to grapple with why religion is such a constant feature of every civilization in recorded history, and why collapse in religion is associated with societal collapse.  You may not believe in a religion, but your genes may not thank you for that. 
 
Religions as memes tend to adapt to survive.  Although there are still Flat-earthers and Creationists, for the most part Christianity is at ease with the ideas of Galileo and Darwin.  What is also interesting is the observation of Prof AJ Toynbee (yes, Polly&#039;s grandfather) on the process of the demise of civilizations. 
 
(Summary from Wikipedia) 
He argues that the ultimate sign a civilization has broken down is when the dominant minority forms a &quot;universal state&quot;, which stifles political creativity. He states: 
 
    &quot;First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold by force&#8212;against all right and reason&#8212;a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation&#8212;and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands.&quot; 
 
He argues that, as civilizations decay, they form an &quot;Internal Proletariat&quot; and an &quot;External Proletariat.&quot; The internal proletariat is held in subjugation by the dominant minority inside the civilization, and grows bitter; the external proletariat exists outside the civilization in poverty and chaos, and grows envious. He argues that as civilizations decay, there is a &quot;schism in the body social,&quot; whereby: 
 
    * abandon and self-control together replace creativity, and 
    * truancy and martyrdom together replace discipleship by the creative minority. 
 
He argues that in this environment, people resort to archaism (idealization of the past), futurism (idealization of the future), detachment (removal of oneself from the realities of a decaying world), and transcendence (meeting the challenges of the decaying civilization with new insight, as a Prophet). He argues that those who Transcend during a period of social decay give birth to a new Church with new and stronger spiritual insights, around which a subsequent civilization may begin to form after the old has died. 
 
Toynbee&#039;s use of the word &#039;church&#039; refers to the collective spiritual bond of a common worship, or the same unity found in some kind of social order. 
 
Do you recognise any of these features in the society you see around you? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you another believer in the God Delusion?  Dawkins actually supplied the analytical tools to understand religions&#039; role in humans in producing the idea of the meme.  Unfortunately, he is so religiously atheist that he fails to appreciate that religions are very successful memes that have survival value (in much the same way as families enhance survival value).  Concentrating on wars between religions and on their impact on widespread scientific understanding fails to grapple with why religion is such a constant feature of every civilization in recorded history, and why collapse in religion is associated with societal collapse.  You may not believe in a religion, but your genes may not thank you for that. </p>
<p>Religions as memes tend to adapt to survive.  Although there are still Flat-earthers and Creationists, for the most part Christianity is at ease with the ideas of Galileo and Darwin.  What is also interesting is the observation of Prof AJ Toynbee (yes, Polly&#039;s grandfather) on the process of the demise of civilizations. </p>
<p>(Summary from Wikipedia)<br />
He argues that the ultimate sign a civilization has broken down is when the dominant minority forms a &quot;universal state&quot;, which stifles political creativity. He states: </p>
<p>    &quot;First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold by force&mdash;against all right and reason&mdash;a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation&mdash;and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands.&quot; </p>
<p>He argues that, as civilizations decay, they form an &quot;Internal Proletariat&quot; and an &quot;External Proletariat.&quot; The internal proletariat is held in subjugation by the dominant minority inside the civilization, and grows bitter; the external proletariat exists outside the civilization in poverty and chaos, and grows envious. He argues that as civilizations decay, there is a &quot;schism in the body social,&quot; whereby: </p>
<p>    * abandon and self-control together replace creativity, and<br />
    * truancy and martyrdom together replace discipleship by the creative minority. </p>
<p>He argues that in this environment, people resort to archaism (idealization of the past), futurism (idealization of the future), detachment (removal of oneself from the realities of a decaying world), and transcendence (meeting the challenges of the decaying civilization with new insight, as a Prophet). He argues that those who Transcend during a period of social decay give birth to a new Church with new and stronger spiritual insights, around which a subsequent civilization may begin to form after the old has died. </p>
<p>Toynbee&#039;s use of the word &#039;church&#039; refers to the collective spiritual bond of a common worship, or the same unity found in some kind of social order. </p>
<p>Do you recognise any of these features in the society you see around you?</p>
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		<title>By: BillyB</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22015</link>
		<dc:creator>BillyB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22015</guid>
		<description>APL# - check &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.xcweather.co.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.xcweather.co.uk/&lt;/a&gt; for the current wind status.... Looks like you are wrong - as of now there is plenty of wind off Wales and Scotland.     What we need is good grid connections to these places.... i.e. green investment. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>APL# &#8211; check <a href="http://www.xcweather.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.xcweather.co.uk/</a> for the current wind status&#8230;. Looks like you are wrong &#8211; as of now there is plenty of wind off Wales and Scotland.     What we need is good grid connections to these places&#8230;. i.e. green investment.</p>
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		<title>By: alan jutson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/01/04/follow-the-science/#comment-22014</link>
		<dc:creator>alan jutson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5302#comment-22014</guid>
		<description>Mike 
 
OAP&#039;s not being able to vote !!!!!!! 
 
Are you suggesting that they have no say in: 
 
Being taxed on their income on savings, tax on their income from Pension, money they spend on goods and services in the form of VAT, Council Tax. 
 
The age limitations on being treated by the NHS, the post code lottery on Drugs, etc etc. 
 
Now if you said Prisoners should not be able to vote, then I may agree. 
 
If you said only UK Nationals should be able to vote, I may agree. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike </p>
<p>OAP&#039;s not being able to vote !!!!!!! </p>
<p>Are you suggesting that they have no say in: </p>
<p>Being taxed on their income on savings, tax on their income from Pension, money they spend on goods and services in the form of VAT, Council Tax. </p>
<p>The age limitations on being treated by the NHS, the post code lottery on Drugs, etc etc. </p>
<p>Now if you said Prisoners should not be able to vote, then I may agree. </p>
<p>If you said only UK Nationals should be able to vote, I may agree.</p>
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