Comments on: Fewer prisoners, fewer prison places

By: Robert K, Oxford

Robert K, Oxford — Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:36:36 +0000

If you are right that the price would rise tenfold then you should support legalisation, as this would give the effect you desire of reduced consumption. (Assuming perfect price elasticity, an increase in the price of 1000% would lead to a drop in consumption of 90%.)
However, I suspect that you are wrong and that removing distortions and inefficiencies from the supply chain would cut the price and raise the quality of the products reaching the market. Rather than being imported illegally, with the costs associated with that, most narcotics would probably be grown and sold domestically. This would shorten the supply chain, making it less vulnerable to hijacking. In any event, as prices would fall, the produce would be no more attractive to hijackers than a truck, say, of strawberries.
Now, you will argue that lower prices and higher quality is likely to lead to higher consumption and thus narcotics-related problems, and this may well be true. However, you or I have no moral right to tell another person what products they may or not consume through their own free will. These choices are inalienable human rights, irrespective of the misery they may cause.
It seems that you favour locking up drug users in ultra-nasty prisons. Here, I have to disagree. If someone is unfortunate enough to be addicted to drugs, surely they need medical help and therapy, not incarceration? Surely prison, where drug use reportedly is rife, is absolutely the last place they should be.

By: John Ward

John Ward — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:30:45 +0000

All of you should read a book entitled "Gangs" by Tony Thompson, an undercover reporter for The Observer. In it he talks to a low-level dealer who discusses the legalisation of cannabis and how it would not work.
For my own analogy, put drugs not alongside alcohol or tobacco but think about other consumer items such as TV sets or mobile telephones. People want these things, but they are expensive. There are other people out there who hijack lorry loads of these at gunpoint, terrorising the driver, tie him up and abandon him miles from anywhere. The consignment is then divided up amongst the group, sold on in ever decreasing numbers to fences and other petty criminals who eventually offer you the latest LCD HD Ready Flat Screen for £150 cash, no questions asked, no what I mean? If you accept it, you to are breaking the Law, but you otherwise wouldn't be able to afford going to Curry's and paying the 700 quid retail price. So you buy it.
Now, a heavily guarded consignment of Government cultivated, legal cannabis is being transported. Because of it's recent legalisation, the production, storage, transport and point of sale costs have sent the price of it soaring to about ten times the price it was pre-legalisation. The convoy is hijacked by a heavily armed, organised gang. Shots are fired and two of the motorcycle outriders are killed. The gang gets away with the entire 2 tonne consignment. A few weeks later, someone in your local pub offers you an eighth of grass. Since being legalised and State controlled, you haven't been able to afford it and by God, you could do with a puff after the week you have had. And your mates will cover you in Kudos. The price offered is a quarter of what the current price is, hugely more expensive than pre-legalisation, but attractive nevertheless. So you buy it.
Want to stop the Drugs problem? Reform of the Judiciary and sentencing guidelines for smuggling/supply of all illegal drugs. Make 5 Years mean five Years. Make Prison a hugely unattractive place to go, re-introduce hard labour and turn off the hot and cold running Playstation. That will empty them in record time and ensure a good percentage of cons don't want to go back. Enforced rehabilitation for addicts who commit crime to feed their habits.
Instead of enthusing about what YOU would do, listen.
Especially to someone such as myself, a serving Customs Officer of 23 Years who has seen things you really, really wouldn't want to see, but still think you have an opinion on.

By: John Duck

John Duck — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:32:38 +0000

Instead of cushy prisons like now, bring back punishments like "the crank" + "The treadmill"… connect them up to a dynamo to generate electricity to feed back into the National Grid (earning money from it, so prisoners earn their keep & can pay back their victims).

By: Richard Watts

Richard Watts — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:43:08 +0000

If prison works why not adopt the American system of harsh justice, I was amazed at how long their sentences were, what a truly awful places their prisons are not to mention the three strikes rule – look at all the success the Americans have had with this harsh penal system, crime is almost at zero … isn't it? …. and Capital Punishment, has in the states where it is carried out practically eliminated murder hasn't it? – I think not!

"From a Police Officers perspective" I'd rather look at crime prevention, rather than punishment. That won't happen when I do my civic duty call the police and they fail to attend, a day later they call and say do you still want a Police Officer to attend. On that example the following Monday (a bank holiday) no less than 6 Police Officers were gathered during daytime hours outside the local village pub, Merseyside Police on double time! – however Thames Valley are no better after being the victim of two serious crimes in Reading the Police attitude was "well even if we catch them they'll just get fine", in other words it's not worth our time – that's my time because I pay the taxes that pay your wages! OK Officer..

It's far from the failure of the Criminal Justice System – we are all paying the price of some private war between the Police and Government – you'd all better wise up as we the tax payer are fed up of picking up the tab for that – I'd rather dismantle the current police force and start a new, fresh faces fresh ideas a force of problem solvers not creators.

Prevention NOT! Punishment – Police officers should be on the streets not moaning about paperwork – some of you lot should work in the private sector then you'd learn what a gripe was about. Bosses dropping more and more paperwork on you? We call them corporate seagulls they fly in squawk a lot, S**T over everyone and then fly off … It's not just the Police force believe me

By: Olaf

Olaf — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:28:53 +0000

Maybe if we roll back 10 years of legislation to decriminalise 99% of us the police will have to give up on wheelie bin monitoring, Duck pond auditing and arresting people doing 61mph on straight bits of road at 4am or putting up a shed without permission from your local Neu labour stasi officer.

Maybe then they'll start to look at burglary, murder, assault and rape. But then they'll probably want CCTV in every home to save them going into dangerous situations like outside the patrol car.

By: no one

no one — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:37:39 +0000

yes i think the average university halls versus prison accomodation should teach us something

personally im still waiting for someone to get locked up for abusing intra company transfer visas, since i know 1st hand illegal abuse is routine im staggered that our system has not brought anyone to book, the contrast between business breaking the rules and poor individuals is dramtic also

a little fairness, is it too much to ask for?

By: MarkE

MarkE — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:33:04 +0000

I know the present Conservative party are embarrassed by the mere existence of Jeffrey Archer, but on his release from prison he made a very valid point. Most of his fellow prisoners were totally illiterate, which made them unable to hold any but the least skilled of jobs and they were thus incentivised to continue a life of crime. If they could be taught only this most basic of skills their chances of earning an honest living would be vastly increased. By making the achivement of a basic (and realistic) level of lliteracy a condition of early release the prisoners would be incentivised to apply themselves to their studies.

As for deterence; prison doesn't deter a person who does not expect to get caught. Get the police to concentrate on catching those committing the crimes the public worry most about (rather than those the government want to highlight, or political crimes); when we are catching most criminals we will see whether they are detered by prison or not and, if they are not, we can start thinking about changing the prison regime.

By: THE ESSEX BOYS

THE ESSEX BOYS — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:26:18 +0000

We submitteed the outline concept reproduced below to an Essex MP 18 months ago but it sank without trace!
We see a common thread with your own thinking.

PRISON REFORM

A concept from The Essex Boys

August 2008

This concept is based on the notion that penalties should have an element of retribution but should be significantly compensatory and should result with as little of a drain on the nation as possible.
The following is an outline:

· Prisons should be penal establishments which nevertheless are profit centres to undertake useful commercial activity as well as punish, retrain etc
· So they should have real commercial activity as their base – manufacturing, service (dirty jobs etc) replicating but competing in the commercial world, paying union rates, incentives and overtime, bonuses etc
· The penalty imposed at court would be in three parts:

* A retributive element recognising the severity of the crime (because of the other two parts of the sentence this would be significantly shorter than currently)

* A compensatory element – a criminal injuries compensation amount fixed by the judge according to scales and some discretion which is payable to the victim
* A maintenance element which is a direct contribution by the prisoner towards the cost of keeping him in prison. You could add to that an element for providing family support etc

The idea is that there is commercial reality to penal policy, the prisoner would be required to earn his keep and the compensation and would have the incentive to work hard for an earlier release.

There’s much more to it but that’s the bones.

By: adam

adam — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:29:57 +0000

Prisoners are treated better than any other member of society.

It costs the same to keep them in prison as it does to keep them in a Travelodge.
People who work dont have the same standard of living
students at university certainly dont have the same standard of living

Students dont get three full meals a day cooked for them. they dont get free accommodation. they dont get free playstations and televisions and other luxury goods.

It shows how morally low the country has sunk.
There have been huge changes in the justice system in the last hundred years all in favour of the criminal. If it carries on like this, law and order will break down.

Whats the point of all the surveillance, police state snooping etc if you are not going to fund the punishment of the few that are caught.

Step one is to take all privileges away from prisoners and give them to university students. Prisoners can have faulty showers and live on beans on toast and pot noodles.

By: Lola

Lola — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:09:41 +0000

Thank you Mr Jutson