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	<title>Comments on: Why should Lib Dems vote twice?</title>
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		<title>By: alan jutson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24412</link>
		<dc:creator>alan jutson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24412</guid>
		<description>John 
 
Thanks but I will be using my brain. 
 
Brown with his systematic redistribution of wealth, profligate spending and waste, with communist type policies, is slowly destroying this Country. 
 
No I do not expect Cameron with his policies to be the great god of change, and Clegg with his unrealistic policies seems the worst of both worlds. 
 
Agree that all leaders want power, that is why they stand for election, but some know when the game is up, others are just bloody minded and refuse to let go, and I put Brown in that catagory. 
 
I would have thought my many previous posts and comments on policies would suggest I will vote on that issue, and not on personality, but I was agreeing with a simple statement made by Sally about Brown which I thought was true. 
 
I beleive the man is absolutely desperate to hold onto power, and not only is it undignified, it brings our whole political system into question when an unopposed and unelected leader, can operate in this way. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John </p>
<p>Thanks but I will be using my brain. </p>
<p>Brown with his systematic redistribution of wealth, profligate spending and waste, with communist type policies, is slowly destroying this Country. </p>
<p>No I do not expect Cameron with his policies to be the great god of change, and Clegg with his unrealistic policies seems the worst of both worlds. </p>
<p>Agree that all leaders want power, that is why they stand for election, but some know when the game is up, others are just bloody minded and refuse to let go, and I put Brown in that catagory. </p>
<p>I would have thought my many previous posts and comments on policies would suggest I will vote on that issue, and not on personality, but I was agreeing with a simple statement made by Sally about Brown which I thought was true. </p>
<p>I beleive the man is absolutely desperate to hold onto power, and not only is it undignified, it brings our whole political system into question when an unopposed and unelected leader, can operate in this way.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24411</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24411</guid>
		<description>Alan J. 
 
Disagree. 
 
All leaders will do anything to get/stay in power. Cameron will be the same and it is naive to think otherwise. Use your brain and vote on policies not individuals. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan J. </p>
<p>Disagree. </p>
<p>All leaders will do anything to get/stay in power. Cameron will be the same and it is naive to think otherwise. Use your brain and vote on policies not individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: alan jutson</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24410</link>
		<dc:creator>alan jutson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24410</guid>
		<description>Mike 
 
Agreed 
 
If people cannot be bothered to make a little effort to vote once evey 4-5 years then do not complain about the result. 
 
There are exceptions of course where the disabled, those in nursing homes and hospital, in some cases cannot make it. 
 
From personal experience my Mothers nursing home go to some effort to get all of their residents to vote. 
 
Our Armed forces should also get the postal vote (as they do at present). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike </p>
<p>Agreed </p>
<p>If people cannot be bothered to make a little effort to vote once evey 4-5 years then do not complain about the result. </p>
<p>There are exceptions of course where the disabled, those in nursing homes and hospital, in some cases cannot make it. </p>
<p>From personal experience my Mothers nursing home go to some effort to get all of their residents to vote. </p>
<p>Our Armed forces should also get the postal vote (as they do at present).</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wheatley</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24409</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wheatley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24409</guid>
		<description>800 peers, of itself, it not a reason not to have them. That some are unsuitable should not so much count against those that are suitable as to have a better system for ensuring that those who are of merit are those who weld the power. 
 
I would like to keep peers in an upper house. I see ways of improving the rules as to those who are entitled to sit during any one parliament, but this is not really the place to lay out such a lengthy analysis. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>800 peers, of itself, it not a reason not to have them. That some are unsuitable should not so much count against those that are suitable as to have a better system for ensuring that those who are of merit are those who weld the power. </p>
<p>I would like to keep peers in an upper house. I see ways of improving the rules as to those who are entitled to sit during any one parliament, but this is not really the place to lay out such a lengthy analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24408</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24408</guid>
		<description>There is something fundamentally incorrect in the title to this article.  It is not the case that LibDems get to vote twice, in a way that voters for the other two parties do not. (Incidentally, this comment would only be thought vaguely plausible anyway in constituencies where the LibDems come third, which is far from always the case, but I will leave that point aside).  The AV system is akin to a second round voting system in which there is a run-off between the top two parties (e.g. as in France).  Nobody suggests that that involves some people having only one vote, whilst others have two.  The AV system is the same as this, except that the second round commences straight after the first one is over.  It is thus more correct to suggest that everyone has two votes rather than some have more than others. (I have simplified this by using an example of a three-way race - where there are more candidates than three, it just becomes more complex, but the basic principles are no different.) 
 
A further advantage of the AV system is that people do not have to tailor their votes to fit in with their guess as to the likely result, as when they vote not for the candidate that they want to win, but for the one most likely to defeat the one they most want to lose. 
 
I find it strange to suggest that something is unfair because it does not resemble a horse race.  Do we want to convey the thought that the two are on a par as far as their seriousness is concerned.  One, after all, is supposed to reflect a choice by the British people on who should govern them for the next 5 years, which seems rather more important than - and importantly different to - the winner of the 4:15 at Wincanton.  Ideas of fairness need to reflect the decision being taken.  It is impractical to run a horse race twice after elimination of the slowest horse.  It is far from impractical in the case of a general election and it is also fairer. 
 
I do agree however that Gordon Brown has only introduced this because he thinks that he and the Labour party are likely to be its beneficiaries in the near future.  Otherwise, why has he just decided this is the right thing to do?  But unfortunately this is the mindset of all but a very small minority of our politicians. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is something fundamentally incorrect in the title to this article.  It is not the case that LibDems get to vote twice, in a way that voters for the other two parties do not. (Incidentally, this comment would only be thought vaguely plausible anyway in constituencies where the LibDems come third, which is far from always the case, but I will leave that point aside).  The AV system is akin to a second round voting system in which there is a run-off between the top two parties (e.g. as in France).  Nobody suggests that that involves some people having only one vote, whilst others have two.  The AV system is the same as this, except that the second round commences straight after the first one is over.  It is thus more correct to suggest that everyone has two votes rather than some have more than others. (I have simplified this by using an example of a three-way race &#8211; where there are more candidates than three, it just becomes more complex, but the basic principles are no different.) </p>
<p>A further advantage of the AV system is that people do not have to tailor their votes to fit in with their guess as to the likely result, as when they vote not for the candidate that they want to win, but for the one most likely to defeat the one they most want to lose. </p>
<p>I find it strange to suggest that something is unfair because it does not resemble a horse race.  Do we want to convey the thought that the two are on a par as far as their seriousness is concerned.  One, after all, is supposed to reflect a choice by the British people on who should govern them for the next 5 years, which seems rather more important than &#8211; and importantly different to &#8211; the winner of the 4:15 at Wincanton.  Ideas of fairness need to reflect the decision being taken.  It is impractical to run a horse race twice after elimination of the slowest horse.  It is far from impractical in the case of a general election and it is also fairer. </p>
<p>I do agree however that Gordon Brown has only introduced this because he thinks that he and the Labour party are likely to be its beneficiaries in the near future.  Otherwise, why has he just decided this is the right thing to do?  But unfortunately this is the mindset of all but a very small minority of our politicians.</p>
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		<title>By: APL</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24407</link>
		<dc:creator>APL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24407</guid>
		<description>Mark, </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Craig</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24406</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24406</guid>
		<description>Just because human institutions cannot meet a theoretical mathematical standard of perfection in voting (or law enforcement or economic/scientific progress or indeed anything else) is not an argument against improving a system which obviously is not giving everybody (or even more than 25%) what they vote for (&amp; I am certain most of that 25% don&#039;t so much like the party they vote for as dislike the other main contender). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because human institutions cannot meet a theoretical mathematical standard of perfection in voting (or law enforcement or economic/scientific progress or indeed anything else) is not an argument against improving a system which obviously is not giving everybody (or even more than 25%) what they vote for (&amp; I am certain most of that 25% don&#039;t so much like the party they vote for as dislike the other main contender).</p>
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		<title>By: Denis Cooper</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24405</link>
		<dc:creator>Denis Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24405</guid>
		<description>The best and simplest reform would be FPTP-SPTP, making use of the fact that Parliament is bi-cameral and both taking the edge off the gross disproportionality of FPTP and creating a much needed centre of effective Parliamentary opposition in a fully elected Second Chamber. 
 
That would kill two persistently troublesome birds with one stone: the Commons would continue to be made up of the candidates who got the greatest number of votes in their constituencies, usually ensuring that one party got a working majority and could form a strong government, while the candidates who came second would form the Second Chamber, usually ensuring that the strong government would be faced with a strong opposition in that chamber. 
 
In fact it&#039;s simple arithmetic that the more dominant a single governing party was in the Commons, the weaker it would be in the Second Chamber, and in my view that would be a very good thing. 
 
The central problem with FPTP is that the winner takes all, even if he takes it by just one vote out of tens of thousands, and nobody else gets anything. 
 
For example, in 2005 16,374 people in Crawley voted for the constituency to be represented in Parliament by the Tory candidate, but they were denied that wish because 16,411 people voted for the Labour candidate. 
 
Under FPTP-SPTP the Tory candidate would have taken a seat in the Second Chamber, and although he would have had less power (as defined by the Parliament Acts) that would have meant that 78% of those who bothered to cast their votes would have seen their preferred candidate elevated to Parliament. 
 
However it&#039;s clear that the Tory party leadership are not interested in any reform which would mean that they could no longer expect to take their Buggin&#039;s turn to form an elected dictatorship. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best and simplest reform would be FPTP-SPTP, making use of the fact that Parliament is bi-cameral and both taking the edge off the gross disproportionality of FPTP and creating a much needed centre of effective Parliamentary opposition in a fully elected Second Chamber. </p>
<p>That would kill two persistently troublesome birds with one stone: the Commons would continue to be made up of the candidates who got the greatest number of votes in their constituencies, usually ensuring that one party got a working majority and could form a strong government, while the candidates who came second would form the Second Chamber, usually ensuring that the strong government would be faced with a strong opposition in that chamber. </p>
<p>In fact it&#039;s simple arithmetic that the more dominant a single governing party was in the Commons, the weaker it would be in the Second Chamber, and in my view that would be a very good thing. </p>
<p>The central problem with FPTP is that the winner takes all, even if he takes it by just one vote out of tens of thousands, and nobody else gets anything. </p>
<p>For example, in 2005 16,374 people in Crawley voted for the constituency to be represented in Parliament by the Tory candidate, but they were denied that wish because 16,411 people voted for the Labour candidate. </p>
<p>Under FPTP-SPTP the Tory candidate would have taken a seat in the Second Chamber, and although he would have had less power (as defined by the Parliament Acts) that would have meant that 78% of those who bothered to cast their votes would have seen their preferred candidate elevated to Parliament. </p>
<p>However it&#039;s clear that the Tory party leadership are not interested in any reform which would mean that they could no longer expect to take their Buggin&#039;s turn to form an elected dictatorship.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24404</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24404</guid>
		<description>Actually, I believe the reverse is in general the case.  There are many constituencies where a Lib/Lab combination would be likely to return a Labour candidate for the foreseeable future where currently they could be even a three way marginal, and very few constituencies that are like yours and become marginals.  The &quot;small group of people&quot; - the executive of a local party for example - is a problem that is much better addressed by true open primaries, as held by Tories in Totnes and Gosport, where the entire electorate had the chance to choose between half a dozen different candidates. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I believe the reverse is in general the case.  There are many constituencies where a Lib/Lab combination would be likely to return a Labour candidate for the foreseeable future where currently they could be even a three way marginal, and very few constituencies that are like yours and become marginals.  The &quot;small group of people&quot; &#8211; the executive of a local party for example &#8211; is a problem that is much better addressed by true open primaries, as held by Tories in Totnes and Gosport, where the entire electorate had the chance to choose between half a dozen different candidates.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Fairney</title>
		<link>http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/02/09/why-should-lib-dems-vote-twice/#comment-24403</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Fairney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=5575#comment-24403</guid>
		<description>I think Dr Paul would laugh at the suggestion he is a monetarist, by his own words a follower of the Austrian economic school </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Dr Paul would laugh at the suggestion he is a monetarist, by his own words a follower of the Austrian economic school</p>
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