What we want from Brexit

I am tired of listening to endless negotiations amongst ourselves. There are too many interests and individuals who want to undermine the UK position by constantly urging us to make concessions. It is even more bizarre that they do so before the talks have even begun about our future relationship.

It is time to remind ourselves of why a majority voted to leave. We expect a better future as a result, with or without a deal with the EU.

Out of the EU we can spend the £1bn a month of net contribution on our priorities, as I proposed in my suggested post Brexit budget

Out of the EU we can set our own taxes. We can for example remove VAT from green products, domestic fuel and female sanitary items.

Out of the EU we can decide how to spend the money we do get back from the EU. We may have better ways of subsidising our farming, for example.

Out of the EU we can regain control of our fishing grounds and have a fishing policy that is kinder to both our fish and our fishermen.

Out of the EU we can sign free trade agreements with countries like the USA, Australia and New Zealand that the EU has  not bothered to settle.

Out of the EU we can shape our own laws, and Parliament can respond to UK public opinion where people want change.

Out of the EU we can have our own migration policy, inviting in those we wish, and controlling the numbers coming to take low paid unskilled jobs.

 

It will also be better for the rest of the EU, as they can press ahead with their currency, economic and political union without the UK trying to slow them down, block them, or opting out.

We can have a more positive relationship when we and they are free to do as we wish.

 

The EU is not offering anything we need pay €20 bn for!

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209 Comments

  1. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    Yes but leaving the EU will not lead us to a land of milk and honey. The decision to get involved in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya was taken in London not Brussels. “Light touch” regulation of the banks, then having to bail them out, go for ZIRP, double the national debt and keep deficit spending was decided in London not Brussels. While you and you pals in Westminster decided to leave the borders wide open to anybody who wants to come here from outside the EU. With some of the nationalities that have come here showing rates of unemployment of around 80% you cannot realistically look forward to any “social cohesion”. BREXIT is only a small part of the massive repair job required on the UK.

    • Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:18 am | Permalink

      Allow me to expand this with some questions:
      On 30/3/19, how will REACH work?
      On the same date, how will (the European air arrangements being cancelled) planes fly to USA?
      How will phytosanitary products cross into Europe and back again? (Which includes all meat, poultry, vegetable and livestock.)
      What will be the reaction of Legatum to the chaos that will ensue?

      • Denis Cooperso
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        Gosh, Mike, you seem to be a bit of an expert on this!

        • Hope
          Posted September 22, 2017 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

          JR, May is keeping us in the EU for at least another two years. When did we vote for this? Utterly disgraceful. She is allowing EU courts a say over citizens living in this country, not stop immigration and pay our taxes to the EU. Brexit means staying in not Brexit by the lying May.

          There was no transition deal on the ballet paper, a simple leave or stay. No retention of ECJ and no adjudication of ECJ for Brexit either. Independent nation by 2019 that is what we voted for. She is still trying to keep us in the EU. what happens when the Tories lose the next election and we are still in the EU? Her speech today offers none of it.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        Dear Mike–Utter Tosh–Obvious that there will be difficulties, possibly very considerable difficulties, but what has that got to do with a decision to leave judged to be the right thing to do–especially long term? Wouldn’t have wanted you at Dunkirk. The best way to mitigate any problems is not to drag them out but to leave immediately.

        • APL
          Posted September 22, 2017 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

          Leslie Singleton: “Utter Tosh–Obvious ”

          No, it’s not “utter tosh”. We have been in a system of integration for 43 years. The procedures and practices that are in place now are predicated on the idea that the European Union is one state. Which we are – despite what the Tory party might tell you.

          On 30 March 2019 we will be a separate state. Borders that haven’t existed for thirty years will be reinstated. That’s not a problem – I’m happy for that to happen.

          Problem is, trade that is predicated on border free traffic, and which is probably larger in real terms that it was 43 years ago, will suddenly encounter customs checks and border controls.

          If we don’t erect border controls, the EU has said it will!

      • a-tracy
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

        Mike, are you saying the EU has the power over the UK to stop all flights to and from the United Kingdom as a free Country in the World when we leave? and secondly that this is what they have threatened to do if we don’t pay up?

        • APL
          Posted September 22, 2017 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

          a-tracy: “are you saying the EU has the power over the UK to stop all flights to and from the United Kingdom ”

          No, he’s saying that for quite some time ~15/20 years air traffic in the EEA has been a community competence. Once we are outside the EU / EEA, “technically” there will be no authority governing air traffic over the UK. Since our ConLab government has ceded control of such authority to the EU / EEA.

          • a-tracy
            Posted September 25, 2017 at 8:38 am | Permalink

            “Once we are outside the EU / EEA, “technically” there will be no authority governing air traffic over the UK.”

            Who provides the authority?

        • APL
          Posted September 22, 2017 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

          a-tracy: “are you saying the EU has the power over the UK to stop all flights to and from the United Kingdom ”

          It’s a bit like the relationship of an independent Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond didn’t understand why a lorry can travel from Edinburgh to Birmingham unimpeded by customs at Carlisle.

          The reason is a result of the Act of Union, dissolve that and customs posts are back on the border between England and Scotland.

          • a-tracy
            Posted September 25, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

            I see it doesn’t stop the travel but it puts an extra barrier a passport and duty check on roads.

            We already have passport checks, in fact, very long queues the last time I came back from Germany at the airport in Berlin but there would also be either duty-free or a tariff to pay on goods you buy.

          • APL
            Posted September 25, 2017 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

            a-tracy: “We already have passport checks, in fact, very long queues the last time I came back from Germany at the airport”

            Yes, and it’s a nuisance. But nothing compared to the tailback of the lorries on both sides of the Channel.

            Goods traffic is currently waved through ( except for the lackadaisical checks for stowaways ) because the permission for the goods to cross internal EU state borders results from reciprocal agreements in EU states.

            In effect goods are certified in one EU country as fit to be exported to another EU country.

            The certification authority is an EU organisation – when we leave, we’ll no longer have the EU authority to certify our goods for import to the EU.

            That certification will lapse as a result of us leaving the EU ( but would be provided under the EEA or membership of EFTA – we were members but left to join the EEC ).

            Redwood doesn’t seem to be aware of this mechanism, odd since he’s been in Parliament for the last 40 years and presided over it’s implementation in the UK.

      • Hope
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

        We had Cameron falsely claiming he ruled nothing out. We have May claiming no deal is better than a bad deal. We have all this chat about a transition period. We never voted for any of it, we voted leave. Lord King former BoE governor is spot on walk away and leave.

        The EU will keep on demanding in the hope remainers will change our minds. JR, why is May making an offer to waste our taxes when public services are in dire need of help. Last week she put the army on the streets after cutting police numbers by 20,000. How many nurses, doctors, police officers, teachers could we buy for 20 billion? 2 billion buys 70,000 nurses including pensions!

      • Edward2
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

        I can help you on REACH Mike
        Non EU nations have no obligations under REACH regs which apply only to EU members.
        To import substances or products, which you make into the EU, you appoint what is called “an only representative”
        Which is effectively your customer inside the EU.
        They then register your imports with the EU.
        That what all the non EU nations do now and they have no problems trading in Europe.
        PS The REACH regs are one of the most ridiculous wastes of time the EU bureaucrats have ever devised.
        REACH stands for the Registration Evaluation Authorisation and Restriction of CHemicals

      • mike fowle
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

        Phytosanitary certificates apply to plants only, I believe.

      • Chris
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 10:09 am | Permalink

        Phytosanitary: (Merriam Webster)
        of, relating to, or being measures for the control of plant diseases especially in agricultural crops ·phytosanitary treatments
        ·a phytosanitary commission

    • Peter
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:14 am | Permalink

      Agreed. Leaving the EU does not solve all our problems. Immigration from the third world is a bigger problem than from Europe, in my opinion. It is also something we could have already addressed but chose not to.

      Likewise, the destruction that occurred in our financial sector was not the fault of the EU. It was neo economic liberal policies which pulled down previous checks and balances and encouraged many institutions to chase profit by any means possible.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        *We* chose not to ???

    • Michael Wood
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      All fair points even though I voted to leave!

    • Iain Moore
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      I believe one of the most important benefits from Brexit is that we will know where the buck stops , it will stop with the politicians we put in office. No longer will there be any confusion as to where a policy originates, we never did find out what was the origin of the energy policy that making Port Talbot steel works so uncompetitive , and is it this accountability that makes much of our political class so hostile to Brexit.

      I am a little concerned at the needy desire of our political class to strike new deals with the EU , and deals here there and everywhere. Every treaty our our political class signs disenfranchises us that little bit. Climate Change, Refugee Convention , Aid , have been milestones our necks, which has removed decision making about the policy from us and moved it to the Judges in Courts.

    • Dennis Zoff
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:51 am | Permalink

      Nicely put!

      With Brexit concluded, Westminster will no longer be able to hide their non-accountable actions behind the EU skirt!

    • agricola
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      Quite correct Rita. Bombs will continue to explode from sources we are fully aware of. Sources that are reluctantly eventually acknowledged by our media, remain unnamed in Parliament. Sources that gather the censor if named on this site. Yet we continue to financially support this 80% while being totally unprepared to deal with the problems they nurture. Our security services are reactive, our government is inactive.

      • Dame Rita Webb
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

        I do not know what Mrs Merkel was up to knowing how hard it has been to integrate the Turkish community into Germany. Look at their levels of welfare dependency, educational attainment etc and the core of this group came to Germany as gastarbeiter with jobs already lined up. If the declining population was a problem, why did she not invite more Vietnamese in? They are born entrepreneurs and their business success is self evident as any body who has been to Berlin’s Dong Xuan Center will tell you. Funny how she has replicated the mistake that we did when we told the Hong Kong Chinese to go elsewhere in 1997.

      • Peter
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

        Moderation here is a complete mystery. You say there is censorship on terrorism. I note banksters are not allowed to be mentioned either.

        As others have noted, some posters comments appear straight away often multiple posts. They are not considered contentious – though they are often rawmaish.

        Other posters get delayed til the very last knockings or ignored completely.

    • Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      Doubling the national debt is the only good thing to come out of that list.

      Because if you study the actual accounting between the BOE and the Treasury. The national debt =

      Everybody’s ” sterling savings” to the penny. Home and abroad which are held at the BOE.

      The national debt should be called what it actually is national savings. Most of it being in pension funds and foreigners who have parked their ” sterling savings” in a savings account at the BOE after they have sold us stuff.

      So if you want to reduce the deficit or the national debt can we start with your pension first please.

      All the £’s ever spent by HM Treasury – All the £’s ever destroyed through tax collection = The national debt.

      Which is what £9 trillion now. That’s £9 trillion of all of our savings that has not been spent yet. Which means it has not been taxed yet as your spending is someone elses income.

      So who did you think we owe the £9 trillion to ?? Mars ??

    • Timaction
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:00 am | Permalink

      Totally agree. We know from Gideon that the Legacy parties don’t care about immigration or the anxieties it causes the rest of us. We want to be able to get a Doctors appointment within days, not weeks. Hospital appointments within months not years. Why are we being taxed to pay for the worlds health anyway? After 7 years why aren’t foreign nationals being challenged for their free treatments, political correctness doesn’t cut it. Try getting free health care in any other Country. So why are the legacies filling our schools with foreign children when its increasingly difficult to get a local placement for English children. Massive building plans up and down the country when what the legacies need to do is get a grip on immigration.
      We are one of the most overcrowded nations on earth and still little to no control on immigration. No care for our culture or concerns. Sad but inevitable that the latest outrage in London is by a young man allowed to remain after arriving on the back of a bus via Egypt and Syria. Why have the legacies made this our problem when none of the rich gulf states have invited anyone. None of this is ever discussed or challenged with the snowflakes with the fake news mainstream media.

    • Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:12 am | Permalink

      Sorry I missed out the 1.

      £1.9 trillion

    • Mitchel
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:19 am | Permalink

      Can we also consign the notion of the “Special Relationship” (and that Trump is going to bail us out-the US establishment remains in favour of an integrated EU that includes us) to the realms of Father Christmas and the tooth fairy.

    • M.W.Browne
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      Well said, and I agree 100%.
      Your points about uncontrolled immigration from non EU sources are never anwered.

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:12 am | Permalink

      Apologies for the sermon. This isn’t Church. And I am not a priest .. Please delete. Thank you.

    • Hope
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:20 am | Permalink

      JR, you are absolutely spot on. Unfortunately your ministers disagree. When your party appoints a remainer PM against the overwhelming wishes of the public then it has a problem. Against all odds we won the vote to leave. Cameron tried every underhand trick in the book including not allowing the civil service to plan to leave. If that were not enough may has allowed every obstacle to be placed in the way to prevent us leaving including an election she claimed on six occasions was not going to happen.

      If that were not enough she appoints a majority of remainers in top posts to secure EU light. I do not have any confidence in May. Her record as HS speaks for itself. When you have the likes of Ken Clarke championing her cause you know something is wrong about leaving the EU.

    • rose
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

      A lot of the people showing 80% rates of unemployment and using our welfare state to the full have in fact come here as EU citizens, having moved to Europe from other continents first.

      • Diogenes
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

        Wrong, people coming from Africa or Middle East would need a minimum of five to seven years of residency in an EU27 to just be able to apply, with no guarantee whatsoever to be given that German, French, Italian, Spanish, or … citizenship.
        People who were queueing in Calais were not French!

        • Dame Rita Webb
          Posted September 22, 2017 at 7:11 am | Permalink

          Wrong they are already here with their Dutch and Swedish passports indulging in benefits arbitrage.

          • hefner
            Posted September 23, 2017 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

            Do you say that migrants arriving from Africa or the Middle East get a Dutch or Swedish passport within a few weeks they have arrived. If you believe that, you never have had to go and stay and work in another country. That’s simply not true. Even as a nice white Brit going to work in Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, you have to organise several months in advance to get the proper visa and work permit. So do not tell me that anybody coming from Syria gets a EU-compatible passport that allows them to arrive in the UK. That is a very sad fantasy.

    • Peter Wood
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      As a ‘stand back and look’ type of comment; look which of the EU nations are members of NATO, certainly all the larger economies. So we have promised to spill our national blood for these countries, as they have for us, but we can’t trade freely with them!? Who is it says we can’t…..

    • The Prangwizard
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      No doubt about, we have been betrayed, and it will probably go further. We need a riot or two, or three. And don’t anyone try to say it doesn’t work. It worked well against the Poll tax a few years ago.

      We must end the Liberal/Fascist tyranny.

  2. JM
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    This needs to be said clearly, loudly and repeatedly. Otherwise we end with the worst of both worlds.

    • Peter Wood
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:20 am | Permalink

      This is certainly our vision, let us hope the our host and his close allies in the house have made it clear to the PM that she MUST deliver on the Lancaster House speech or she will face a vote of no confidence. Fingers crossed for tomorrow….
      It must surely be logical that the next step is to walk away from the waste of time talks with the temp Mr. Barnier, it was always just a delaying exercise, send terms to the EU council and PREPARE THE NATION in the next 18 months for full exit and WTO terms. I, for one, have had enough of the insults and condescension from the EU.

    • Hope
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:35 am | Permalink

      JR, do you not agree with Lord lawson that there is no chance the EU will make a god deal with the UK because it will encourage other countries to leave. Secondly, Lord King says the UK should just walk away and trade on WTO terms. We voted leave and must live with the consequences.

      It is flawed to think the UK will get a good deal when it is a political project not economic one. Why is the govt persisting on trying to achieve something that is not on offer? This can only be retainers hoping that it gives another chance to change our minds by scaring us. If May says Brexit means Brexit and no deal is better than a bad deal, why is she making offers? Does this not show contradiction in what she says and that she has a weak hand?

      Meanwhile Heseltine is not he radio convinced we will change our minds and join the Euro as well! it is time to walk away as May claimed she would, not make offers for a bad deal as it is anticipated she will do tomorrow. She needs to consider how the public will view her change of mind.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

        Lord King is probably right. The deal between the UK and the EU will be an ongoing negotiation for ever more anyway as it was when in the EU. As will the deal between the UK and the other countries. The sooner we leave fully and all adjust to the new regime the better for everyone.

        The main problems are that T May is a misguided, PC, greencrap, soft socialist without a Conservative bone in her body and she has little electoral appeal (beyond not being Corbyn).

        Corbyn’s Labour Party would just steal people’s personal property and shares, destroy the economy in short order and give us a version of Venezuela in the UK.

  3. Mark B
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    Out of the EU, we will be just like all the other countries around the world. Much like we use to be before we joined the, ‘Stupid Club’.

    We will have our own foreign policy and be able to act in our own interests and not in the, ‘Common Interest’ like we do today.

    We will be able to sit on the high tables of the world, like the G8, and international standards and trading bodies, and speak for ourselves and act in our own interests, whilst the likes of Germany and France will have to sit outside to see what the Commission has got for them.

    Out of the EU, the UK will once again gain her voice and will, once again, be heard and listen too.

    Out of the EU, countries will want to ally themselves to us and be our friend as they know we are a power in the world.

    Out of the EU, for a short time, things will not be easy, but our future and our childrens’, childrens’ future is what we wanted, and that is what they shall have in a free and democratic country governed by the rule of law.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:53 am | Permalink

      “Out of the EU, for a short time, things will not be easy” , Cobblers you have nothing to fear but fear itself. Unfortunately in the West leaders of the stature of FDR disappeared years ago. Anybody looking forward to Osborn’s comeback?

    • Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:20 am | Permalink

      You can do all this within EFTA/EEA.
      If we remain in, we can continue trading as normal. If not. Not.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

        If we were allowed to stay in the EEA, by no means a foregone conclusion and requiring changes to the EEA Agreement, that would in any case still be with uncontrolled and unlimited immigration from the rest of the EEA, including from all the other EU countries as now. Maybe that wouldn’t bother you but it would bother a lot of other people, easily a majority of UK voters.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

        Dear Mike–Your ability to continue talking repetitive drivel, much dredged over, is very impressive–But I think now getting counter-productive–We have heard it all before and are not in the slightest convinced

      • getahead
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

        Mike, The UK would still need to contribute around 2 billion euros a year to the EU budget if part of the EEA/EFTA. Nationals of the EEA EFTA States have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA, we would therefore still have uncontrolled immigration.
        So in effect EFTA is simply EU lite, similar to that which we have recently voted to quit.

      • Chris
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 10:17 am | Permalink

        Please can you realise that so many people voted to leave on account of the mass immigration that we have experienced, and would continue to experience, so long as wealth and benefits disparities exist within the EU. Your “mentor” RN may think the same way as you, but I assure you that uncontrolled mass immigration was hugely important to a very significant segment of the population.

        In questionnaires on how one would vote in the Referendum I was asked to choose the most important factor influencing my decision. I said sovereignty, as if our country is in charge of itself it can decide exactly what immigration policy it will adopt. So, I went down in the stats simply as someone wanting sovereignty (and not concerned about uncontrolled mass immigration) which is not true. Thus many people wanting control of immigration would not have been registered as such, making the existing figures an underrepresentation of the true figure.

    • CharlesV
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:20 am | Permalink

      Out of the EU things will not change very much.

      Those that are unhappy now about the state of our nation will continue to be so and will simply find someone or something else to blame as well as continuing to blame the EU for decades and decades to come.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:37 am | Permalink

      Indeed. I really cannot understand why everyone cannot see it in this uplifting way. Cooperation with the rest of Europe good, ruled by un-elected, largely incompetent and self serving bureaucrats through a mad & sclerotic system of 28 countries very bad.

  4. Duncan
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    The PM has a choice to make. She can either side with Hammond and the entire British Civil Service (who are working tirelessly to prevent full Brexit. Yes, unelected bureaucrats who view Brexit voters as the lowest form of humanity and these people will do all in their power to circumvent the referendum result and ignore the will of the British people) and go down the route of Brexit light or the Swiss option. Down this route effectively translates into the UK being a subservient, vassal nation of the EU

    Or she can side with pro-Brexit forces and go for full Brexit. We take back control of our country’s affairs. We reassert the supremacy of the British Parliament, our laws and retain our independence. If she decides to betray this nation she will never be forgiven, and I for one WILL NEVER VOTE CONSERVATIVE AGAIN

    It is time for all decent Tory MPs to stand up and be counted or else we will lose our country forever

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

      “She can either side with Hammond and the entire British Civil Service (who are working tirelessly to prevent full Brexit”.

      True, well certainly “almost” the entire Civil Service – look at the idiotic intervention by Sir (whatever it was) the head of the statistics department attacking Boris without any sensible justification at all.

      Well the EU is a wonderful job creation scheme for essentially parasitic bureaucrats, pointless job and lawyers all over the place. You can see why they like it. Lots even establish second offices in Brussels for their amusement.

    • getahead
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

      Well said Duncan.

    • Johnny Englander
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

      Sorry – is that the Continuity Conservative Party you’re not going to vote for, or the Provisional wing?

    • Chris
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 10:24 am | Permalink

      Your message about never voting Conservative again is what is being repeated over and over in the blogosphere, and Conservative MPs would do very well to heed that very stark warning. I think many just have not a clue.

  5. oldtimer
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    There are reports that Hammond, Rudd, Treasury officials and the mandarin class are actively trying to frustrate Brexit. That is why many at senior levels in Germany, for example, do not believe Brexit will happen. That is why the EU negotiators are spinning out the process to wear down UK public opinion. And that is why Boris Johnson thought it necessary to publish his article last week reminding everyone what Brexit should be about, prompting the smear from the head of the ONS. There is a civil war on: it just has not, yet, descended into an exchange of blows or shots.

    • alan jutson
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

      oldtimer

      Agree with your points ref Hammond Rudd etc.

      Even the German businesses and trade unions it is getting reported are becoming worried about the trade deadlock and are blaming the EU for holding it off the table.

      Time is actually on our side if we did but know it.

      Now is the time to stay strong, not capitulate by offering large sums of money that there is no legal argument to do so.

      Given we have a trade deficit with the EU, free trade is in their interests rather more than it is ours. We have no reason to pay them for it as well.

    • Beecee
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

      The OBR report clearly shows that in 5 or so years we will be making a NET contribution of c £335 m per week to the EU. The EU also takes a chunk of the VAT we all pay.

      Boris clearly wrote – AFTER we have left the EU (my caps) – so Boris was right and the head of the ONS wrong because he clearly cannot read!

      Ms Coburn of the BBC cannot read either and should apologise to IDS

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

      Much truth and I suspect May is still actually remainer too. After all she is wrong on nearly every other issue.

  6. Bryan Harris
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    OK – those are the direct benefits to us – but I voted to leave, in addition to the above, because
    – the EU is inherently socialist by nature, and haven’t we had enough of labour messing us up over the years;
    – the EU does so many things in secret, behind closed doors, they are not transparant, and have a propensity to deceit;
    – the UK has never been the most favoured member, we got shafted at every opportunity;
    – the EU is more and more like a dictatorship;
    – the commission are unaccountable, and immune from prosecution – but who tells them what to do?

  7. eeyore
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    I hope this post is an open warning to the Prime Minister that she will not get the votes in Parliament for an E20bn payment. She would be wise to read it as a warning about votes in the country too.

    Regardless of merit, this humiliating danegeld is one of those political virility tests which the public takes seriously, and for good reason. If Mrs May calculates that she can get away with it because the alternative is worse, she shows yet again that she does not know the people she governs.

    • Chris
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 10:41 am | Permalink

      She seems again to be displaying a lack of wisdom and common sense. I really fear what is going to happen next. This is all so vital for the future of our country and yet it looks like we are going to be betrayed by our politicians. Words fail me.

  8. Bryan Harris
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    Reasons to Leave-2
    – democracy doesn’t factor into their deliberations when making decisions;
    – so much of our money was sent to the likes of Poland or Spain, to make new roads or airports that never got used, while our streets crumble;
    – the EU parliament is a farce –
    a) things are decided in closed door sessions;
    b) there is no real debate;
    c) there is no actual opposition;
    d) there is no second chamber to correct the mistakes of the main one.
    – financially, the EU is inept which encourages corruption, and misuse of funds.

    • sm
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

      The founding fathers of the EEC believed, so I have read, that democracy led to nationalism, which could lead to dictatorship, and that the answer therefore was to have a token Parliament, with the real decisions taken in private by an elite and well-educated clique whose only motive was of course the well-being of European citizens.

      In other words, a dictatorship run by YOU is obviously awful and leads to Nazism, but a dictatorship by ME is totally good.

    • getahead
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      I think you have just described the old USSR, Bryan.

  9. Bob Dixon
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    In time ,becoming an MP ,will attract those who can aspire to drive the Uk back to where we should be in the World.

  10. Bryan Harris
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Reasons to Leave-3
    – the EU doesn’t work within budgets – they decide what they want to do then demand money from member states;
    – the EU has done nothing for me personally, on the contrary, it has taken away my rights, and imposed its own warped ideas on me;
    – the whole lobbying process is open to corrption and malpractice;
    – the EU parliament is remote and out of touch, they live in a gilded cage;
    – the EU elite award themselves far too many priveleges, and they are certainly not value for money.

  11. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    So, was I wrong to perceive some disunity, weeks ago? 🙂

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

      Peter – You are witnessing the subversion of democracy.

      Why so smug ?

      Why do you respect people who support the EU and not their own country after the issuance of the Art 50 letter ?

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 8:06 am | Permalink

        @Anonymous: I respect all and nothing smug about it. I just see disunity and when I mentioned it before I was told the opposite (unity) being true (which to me looks like wishful thinking)

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

      PvL–Your perception is as always staggering–There is not the slightest doubt that most, and increasingly so, want Out–It is true that some motormouths still disagree but so what?

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

        @Leslie Singleton:
        The Independent today: “Brexit: Majority of British people believe UK should stay in the EU, finds latest poll”.
        Lots of “staggering” perceptions! 🙂

    • Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

      It’s called democracy.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 8:13 am | Permalink

        @Handbags: I agree. Maybe about time that both sides learn to listen to one another.

    • Bob
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

      @PvL
      So Poland and Hungary not happy to accept Merkel’s migrants then?
      How’s the youth unemployment situation in the southern Eurozone?
      Wouldn’t it make more sense for Germany to provide employment for Greek & Spanish youngsters than importing people from outside the EU?

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 8:15 am | Permalink

        @Bob:
        You DO like to go off-topic.

    • Peter Wood
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 1:18 am | Permalink

      Hello Peter,
      This is called freedom to debate, a generally polite exchange of views between interested parties to produce a best compromise; democracy! Something the EU doesn’t much like so you’d better use it before you lose it…

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 8:18 am | Permalink

        @Peter Wood
        “a generally polite exchange of views between interested parties to produce a best compromise” – please allow me to smile here.

  12. Anonymous
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    I am tired of Remainers telling us Leavers that we are confused about what we wanted from Brexit.

    We are not.

    Remainers, having lost the referendum, took a second bite of the cherry with “What do we mean by Brexit ?”

    The question was not for them to ask because it didn’t apply to them. They voted Remain. They meant ‘stay’ when they voted. No uncertainty there.

    I have yet to hear (and certainly not in any significant numbers) any Leave voter saying “I did not mean leaving the Single Market. I was duped.” None were more unequivocal about what Leave meant than the Remain campaigners – in fact not one of them spent time laying out an argument about the exciting future that the EU promised. No uncertainty there.

    Both leading parties at the last election stood for full Brexit. Art 50 was voted through by Remain politicians who had no choice because they were accountable to constituents standing fast on full Brexit. No uncertainty there either.

    ‘Brexit uncertainty’ (blamed for the fall in the pound and loss of confidence) is being caused entirely by bitter Remainers and Brexit saboteurs. They are trapping us halfway out of the catflap.

    EU negotiators are reading anti Brexit blog comments, the ‘Brexit. Boo !’ London Evening Standard and watching the 100% Remain BBC and using it against us in negotiations because they, correctly, see a divided nation.

    Remainers refuse to respect the authority of the referendum result and are actively subverting it – they have been in denial since the issue of the point-of-no-return Art 50 letter at which point it was their solemn duty to get behind Britain and stop giving support to Brussels.

    If Britain fails it is entirely the fault of the Newmaniacs who have played right into the EU’s hands.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:11 am | Permalink

      I don’t EVER hear Leavers asking “What does Brexit mean ?”

      This whole question is bloody insulting.

  13. alan jutson
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    Agree JR, shame so many who are in positions of influence are blind to what you say and to our possible future.

  14. margaret
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    It is strange isn’t it ? we have heard you repeat this time and time again and we get a little fed up with the repetition . There is an inclination to say yeh! yeh! yeh! we know , but as a politician somebody new every day is reading or listening and the only way to emphasise or introduce others to these aspects of leave is by repetition as though you were addressing a new audience.
    Trying to prevent the erection of barriers is also a challenge .The barriers are promoting the downside to leaving incessantly, and being too afraid to change. We will not be here when our Independence has finally come into fruition. I myself would like regulation of skilled workers into out Countries thereby allowing home grown talent to develop and not be frustrated when opportunities come along by taking from abroad.

  15. paulW
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    Sorry JR but you are the very one initiating daily discussion about ‘listening to endless negotiations amongst ourselves’. You are correct to bring up that we need to remind ourselves on why we voted to leave..this is easy to answer.. we were tricked by UKIP lies and Tory party faction fighting and collusion and 350 on the side of a bus..not to mention the tabloid rag press.

    Then the old story about having all of this extra money to spend? Wow! wish it were so but I don’t believe a word for after we leave the EU the whole dynamics of the UK economy will have shifted and nobody knows how it will shape up- nobody knows.

    Then all talk about farming and fishing- Yes, but who is going to do all of this hard work? a lot of it drudge with very unsocial hours.. who is going to do this work?..who is going to get out of bed early in the morning and work all night in the case of fishing in all weathers, certainly not today’s young british, and as the foreigners will have all largely gone a lot of them expelled and unwilling to put up with people who treat them as aliens and worse- looking to fingerprint them- so just like ryanair pilots they will leave in droves..so another shift in the economic dynamics of this country that we cannot even start to envisage yet.

    lastly you are quite correct that the EU will push ahead with it’s own agenda and so we will be left behind scratching around looking for remnants of the old Empire who’s childrens children have long since passed by and who have absolutely no collective memory of us- the cliff edge

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

      Did you vote Remain ? If so then please don’t say *we* were tricked.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

        You don’t sound like someone who would ever have voted Leave. And you didn’t say the all important * I * was tricked.

        Otherwise it is not your place to say this.

        I have yet to hear a Leave voter say to me that they felt tricked and the voting pattern in the last general election suggest not too.

        You are trying to reduce the authority of the referendum by telling us how *we* think and how *we* feel.

  16. Helena
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Out of the EU we can see almost half our export trade being subjected to the tariff and non tariff barriers which all third countries have to face when they trade with the world’s most powerful free trade area. But it won’t be you that suffers, will it, Mr Redwood.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

      Only if the EU wants it like that; perhaps you can explain why?

    • Richard1
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

      Only if the EU decides to start a trade war. there are no tariffs now, why would anyone think its a good idea to introduce them?

    • Andy
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

      If the EU is ‘the world’s most powerful free trade area’ how come they will subject UK exports to ‘tariff and non tariff barriers’ ? So the EU isn’t a free trade area but a protectionist racket.

      And by leaving this protectionist racket the costs of many goods will fall considerably. The EU slapped a 16% tariff on Oranges last year. Now they don’t grow in the UK, so your glass of orange juice is more expensive than it needs to be. Ditto coffee. Actually there are something like 12000+ tariffs the EU imposes, usually to protect vested interests within the EU. We can do very well without a lot of these, or mitigate them with FTA with other countries. The EU could come out of all of this very badly indeed.

    • Edward2
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

      Did you know Helena, that the nation with the largest trade growth with Europe since the start of the fabled Single Market is America.
      How did they manage to do that?

    • getahead
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

      I understand Helena, that tariffs will be cheaper than the £10 billion or so we fork out to the EU each year for Single Market access.
      As a tax payer John Redwood contributes to EU contributions. As a customer he will also pay duty when he buys imported goods. Same as everyone.

  17. Lifelogic
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Indeed and out of the EU we can actually live in a democracy with elected politicians who can actually respond to the electorate and act in the interests of the UK for a change.

    Some ex MP dope yesterday in the Telegraph suggested Osborne should be given a new roll in government. He is needed like a hole in the head. He was a tax borrow and piss down the drain, punishment budget threatening economic illiterate. Do these people really want to win the next election? Let us hope we get more than the usual vacuous, robotic, fence sitting and dithering today from T May today.

    Is she actually capable of some real and positive competitive Brexit vision? Or will she just ape Vince Cable as usual?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      Vince Cable and on occasions even the dire David Lammy. What made Theresa May join the Tories with such silly left wing views?

      Charles Moore is, as usual spot on today in the Spectator. Sir David Norgrove’s attacks on Boris were clearly wrong in fact, surely politically driven and totally inappropriate. He should apologise and go to be replaces by someone more numerate and rational. Boris was entirely accurate in his article. We should “take back control” of all this money and do so as soon as possible.

      https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/the-remainers-are-wrong-boris-never-promised-the-uk-another-350m-a-week-after-brexit/

  18. Nig l
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Good point Theresa mays ex advisor made about Hammond, the Treasury and other Manarins needing to start being openly positive about the opportunities. Let’s hope he still has contact and influence.

    Interesting the different views, you have been an entrepreneur and needed to achieve positive outcomes to be successful and are not afraid of risk or change. These people haven’t and are, hence their dead hand on everything.

  19. Ian Wragg
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    Your preaching to the converted here John. It’s just a pity Hammond and May don’t understand why we voted out.
    For 40 years it has been one capitulation after another and it appears it’s about to happen again.
    I can feel your exasperation in your posts.
    You will never be forgiven if you sell us out to Drunket and co.

    • getahead
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

      You’re

  20. Richard1
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    I’m afraid the EU has won this first tranche of these negotiations. They have succeeeded in engendering terror of the cliff edge in the UK and the Govt have now missed the chance to address this and set out clearly for UK voters what are the consequences of no deal, i.e. The walk away option. Therefore public and parliamentary opinion demands unilateral concessions which presumably Mrs May will announce tomorrow. Clearly we will be giving the EU a c £30bn bung, likely to be increased in the final event. I can live with that, with continued subjugation to EU institutions during a transition period, and continued unlimited EU integration conditional on 2 ‘red lines’: 1) it must be clear there is a binding commitment to long term free trade post the transition period and 2) the UK must be free to negotiate and sign free trade deals with other countries during the transition. I think that’s the best we can get.

    • zorro
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

      There is no point in a transition period unless we have some concrete agreement to implement.

      zorro

  21. Bob
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    “The EU is not offering anything we need pay E20 bn for!”

    According to the BBC, Mrs May will offer exactly that amount of money to Brussels.

    Is this fake news?

    • acorn
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

      BTW. If you want to know why so many UK Commercial Lawyers are applying for Irish passports, the following explains.

      “Can EU actors keep using [English] common law after Brexit? English common law is the choice of law for financial contracts, even for parties in EU members with civil law systems. This creates a lucrative legal sector in the UK, but Brexit could make UK court decisions difficult to enforce in the EU.”

      “Parties will be able to continue using English common law after Brexit, but how will these contracts be enforced? Some continental courts are preparing to make judicial decisions on common law cases in the English language.” (European Macroeconomics & Governance.)

  22. Sakara Gold
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    For once I find myself in agreement with you. The country as a whole voted to leave – if Theresa May capitulates and pledges more billions to the EU in order to gain access to their markets etc, they will continue to blackmail us for more. If she does, the whole cabinet should resign in protest.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

      More than half the cabinet are remainers!

  23. Original Richard
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    “There are too many interests and individuals who want to undermine the UK position by constantly urging us to make concessions.”

    It seems we always have a sizeable and influential group amongst us who believe the country would be better run by another country.

    In the first half of the 20th century we had UK citizens who would have preferred if the country was run by the USSR.

    Since the demise of the USSR, we now have UK citizens who believe our country should not be sovereign and prefer it was run by the EU.

    I have just read that a top civil servant, allowed to be in charge of Brexit despite being an EU supporter, previously wrote in defence of Stalin, lamented the demise of the USSR, and implied communism was preferable to capitalism.

    No wonder our negotiations with the EU have become more difficult than necessary.

    The irony is that the more that the EU supporters try to undermine our position, the harder will become the EU’s negotiating position and the “harder” (or cleaner) will be our exit.

    • zorro
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

      Mr Robbins will clearly be in his element then advising TM on the proposed EUSSR!

      zorro

  24. Gareth
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    So if the PM offers the EU 20 billion euro as part of a sea, you will vote AGAINST the deal when it reaches the Commons – and open the door of No 10 for Corbyn. Yes?

    • getahead
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

      ¿Como?

  25. agricola
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    This is becoming very repetitious. By and large we know what we expect from leaving the EU. The important, if not key point is to ensure that our PM and negotiating team understand. They and the Conservative party who have sole responsibility for the outcome of these negotiations will pay dearly in the country if they get it wrong. Subsequently the UK will suffer under a Marxist government called Labour. Should the EU fail to understand our position then it is the unfortunate industries and people of Europe who will suffer for their intransigence. Much is at stake.

  26. Excalibur
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    Well said, JR. Why are these Remoaners so lacking in vision ? We will have the world at our feet, clamouring for trade deals.

    Of course there will be problems, but this country did not rule a third of the known world because it could not adapt or innovate.

    No transition or separation payments, please. We should pay only the amount we are required to do under the law.

  27. Michael
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    £20,000,000,000 is an awful lot of money. It is our money.

    If you had that amount extra to spend what would you do with it? Would Brussels be on the list ahead of everything else?

    • zorro
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

      What exactly in a tangible way are we supposed to get for this pot de vin?

      zorro

      • zorro
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

        Sweet nothing it seems!

        zorro

    • miami.mode
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

      Agreed, Michael. It should be voiced loud and clear that this money could be used for pensions, NHS, schools etc and perhaps even potholes.

  28. am
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Out of the EU we will be free from Junckers, Barnier, et al,.

  29. Bert Young
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Independence is a state this country needs very badly . For too long we have been subjected to rules and regulations that have overtaken our democracy ; the public now need to have their faith restored in our system of representation . The EU bureaucracy is full of individuals who have not been elected and who receive huge benefits – financial and otherwise ; they line their own pockets with little sign that they have really done anything positive and useful . Individuals from this country have benefited from such appointments .

    Financial mis-management is the reason their accounts have not been signed off for many years ; it is probably the reason behind the “fine” punishment they now wish to inflict on us . Meeting our justifiable commitments is one thing but paying for blackmail is another . Theresa is about to make a speech that should make it very clear that we are not going to be shoved around ; whatever she does say will determine the quality of her leadership for the period she has left . If she makes a floppish effort she must go ; if she does stick a rightful chin out she will deserve respect and support .

  30. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    I hope you have sent this aide memoire to Mrs May. If, as reported, she is prepared to capitulate to the EU’s extortion she is more naive than I thought. Offering €20bn publicly will result in a humiliating rebuff from the EU who will demand much more. Extortion tends to work that way.

  31. Peter
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    ‘Enough is enough’ says May.

    I am sure many people think the same about her leadership.

    It is all very well to quibble about the internet when the bigger issue is allowing ‘known wolves’ to walk the streets of Britain instead of interning them.

  32. Fed Up
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I don’t disagree with any of what you’ve written; I only wish that you were in the cabinet in place of Mr Hammond and encouraging the Treasury to put out a more positive message.

    I wonder though, does Mrs May share these views though John? Not long until we find out I guess.

  33. Chris
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Offering 20 billion is really a form of blackmail in my mind, and will not end well. There are always further demands. Don’t imagine for one minute that the EU demands for money will stop there. The UK, by offering this, has displayed its weakness, and that is fatal with the EU. I just wonder who really is in charge of our negotiations. It does not seem like they are headed up by committed Brexiters.

  34. robert lewy
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    I am against making a payment to the EU outside our legal obligations.

    However, from a practical point of view, there would appear to be value in
    making payments spread over say 5 to 7 years of an amount to be agreed
    which as well as providing mutually tariff free trade would give us the right
    to discontinue payments if evidence of non-tariff barriers is produced.

  35. Lifelogic
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    “The EU is not offering anything we need pay E20 bn for!”

    Indeed they are not offering anything more than we are offering them. If anything the payment need to be the other way on any rational basis.

    • Stuart K
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

      Indeed, but some of the posters on here seem to think that we should be paying the EU for the privilege of importing more from them than they sell to us. No self-respecting nation would ever agree to such an arrangement.

  36. simon
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Tell that to the treasury, who seem not to understand.

  37. MickN
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Part of me thinks that this might all be like one of Baldrick’s cunning plans. We offered a good deal for EU citizens in the UK only for the EU not to wish to reciprocate. Mrs May offering 20 billion pounds when we are not legally obliged to pay anything looks like we are not being intransigent and are keen to get the process moving. The EU for their part will reject it out of hand as not enough. We will at least be able to say we gave it our best shot and take the moral high ground. We can show this as a good example of the UK trying to get a deal but being rebuffed and so having to walk away without one.
    Another part of me though wonders if she is that clever.

  38. fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Is it me or has politics never been in such a mess as it is now? Is anyone else as depressed about the lack of democracy in the UK at the moment? Have we ever had a more dithery PM than we have now? Is there nobody in the Tory party with any guts (apart from our host)? Is there any difference between all the parties now? Answers on a post card please. I just hope TM steps up to the job in hand in Florence and tells the EU to get lost, we are not paying to stay in their jumped up little club and we are getting out which is what the majority of the UK voted for. Perhaps someone could remind her of that??

  39. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Every euro added to the bill for leaving the EU is yet another euro saying that we should never have joined it in the first place. If we had not made the mistake of joining it we not have been paying to be in it over the past four decades and we would not now be expected to pay to leave it as well. On the other hand those who argue that this huge unjustified ransom demand is a good reason why we should not leave the EU clearly want us to carry on paying ever increasing sums into it forever, year after year after year, when common sense says that we should cut our losses now as far as that is possible.

  40. Andy Marlot
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Out of the EU we could cut mass immigration, cut taxation, cut regulation and cut the public sector and thereby make Britain boom- but we won’t. What we’ll actually do is fudge and prevaricate because as a nation we have no guts. We’re scared of being called Little Englanders, racists, fascists or whatever the radical left lunatics dream up to undermine the British people. We’re scared of standing up for ourselves as we used to do. We have become gutless, spineless wimps. Why can’t we simply tell the EU do a running jump, pull out of negotiations, declare Britain free (ish) and get on with our lives without Johnny Foreigner having the veto on our every thought and action?

  41. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    If May comes up with a give away speech in Florence it is time for you and the other genuine Leaver Conservative MPs to call for a leadership election. It is laughable that we have her, Hammond, Rudd, Green leading the exit in reality. I am no great fan of Boris but he has that something that a leader needs and May has never had it, whilst Corbyn has proved he has.
    The EU is running rings around us and we need Boris, Davis, Fox, Gove in the main Government posts, not to mention yourself, who I said yonks ago would be the ideal head of our exit(not negotiating) team.

  42. CharlesV
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    “I am tired of listening to endless negotiations amongst ourselves” = “I don’t like people disagreeing with my view, however much I repeat it.”

    If you want the negotiations to finish then less dogmatism and more pragmatism is the only way to achieve this.

  43. Paul
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    I guarantee if it was any other major EU country leaving there would be a sense of optimism and great opportunity among its people and politicians. Only the UK could get itself into this laughable position of dithering and having absolutely no confidence in itself.

  44. Man of Kent
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Brexit means ———-what exactly ??

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

      If you voted Remain then you are trying to have another bite of the cherry.

      The Remain campaign made it very clear what Brexit means.

  45. Nig l
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    So the Treaurys role is to overcome fundamental bitterness and as a bulwark against the extremes of human nature according to two top treasury officials.

    Obviously the vote to leave comes within those categories. Now we have proof. They view democracy as something at best to manage at worst to ignore.

    For goodness sake JR how is this allowed to happen and what can be done about it?

  46. ian russell
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    The EU is not offering anything we need pay E20 bn for!

    Yes, what we get for our money is what the media should be banging on about.

    If Mr Juncker needs a short term loan to cover his budgeted expenditure I am sure the Chancellor and the City could arrange it.

  47. Epikouros
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    There are obvious considerable advantages to leaving the EU. You have listed the most important and without doubt your list is not exhaustive. It is difficult to list the disadvantages of leaving and the advantages of remaining as to my mind they are few and are generally insignificant. Yet the remainers trot out many all absurd and/or false. It is significant that the EU does not point out any advantages and disadvantage probably because if they did they know that they would not stand up to scrutiny as they would have to supply evidence which remainers have the luxury of not having to. The case for leaving is clear and has been made so remainers have to resort to speculative scaremongering, obfuscation and blatant propaganda.

  48. Prigger
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    We should want out of the EU a growing patriotisation of our people.At the moment they have been made headless chickens, moving this way and that frantically. Uncertain of their nation, its spirit, lacking focus. Awful seeing some young people and older ones who should know better, marching in London with the flag of the EU shouting they are not British. It is fair enough. But there is no such nation as the EU and it does not have “values”. It cannot.

  49. Tom William
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    I hope Mrs May can hint at a steel fist inside a velvet glove. In some countries, especially Germany, political and business leaders openly say Brexit will not happen and they do not want it to happen.

    Reasonable people talk of compromise but they are not reasonable. How can anyone explain a refusal to consider a tariff free trade proposal other than as a determination to punish the UK?

  50. BOF
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    I am riven between optimism that in her speech tomorrow the PM will say that we will be leaving with or without a deal on 29th March, 2019. We will not be paying any monies other than our legal requirements and that the transition period is the 2 years from Article 50. That she will repeat that ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’.

    On the other hand I am filled with dread that billions will be promised and that we will continue to pay in for a further 2 years. The money of course will never be sufficient. Much wants more and the extortion will continue. Transition will in time become permanent and we will be shackled the that corrupt political edifice forever.

  51. Bob
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Steve Crowther, UKIP’s Interim Leader says Britain should walk away from Brexit negotiations until EU drops its “ransom demand”

  52. Ed Mahony
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    ‘The EU is not offering anything we need pay €20 bn for!’

    – Most businesses aren’t that hot-under-the-collar about whether we go for HS2, or not. Something that costs nearly £60 billion.

    But many businesses are extremely concerned about being out of full access to the single market, with £20 bn, being a third of the cost of HS2.

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:57 am | Permalink

      Not forgetting we need UK businesses, exporting to the EU at their full capacity, to help us pay off our national debt as soon as possible.

      • zorro
        Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

        A lot of businesses find it easier to trade and expand their businesswith non-EU countries…. The ‘Single Market’ is actually quite complex and diverse and does not encompass service industries which are a large part of the UK 🇬🇧 economy.

        zorro

    • Oggy
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      You just don’t get it do you ?
      It’s not about the money it’s the principle of making unilateral concessions to the EU which are completely against what we voted for last year.
      I’m hoping that tomorrow the EU flatly refuses Mrs May’s offer(s).

      • Chris
        Posted September 23, 2017 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

        They will spin it out, I fear. Not outright rejection, but instead some words of encouragement, and then hints dropped that more money is required or another problem needs dealing with before talking about trade, and so on and so on…..Frustration and anger with Mrs May’s dithering will entrench even further, and the EU will be hoping, I think, that the electorate gets so fed up with Brexit they will just want to ditch it, and stay in (and accept even more onerous conditions). What a shambles.

  53. Prigger
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    We should desire a health service and research which is independent of foreign fashion and undesirable cross-pollination of weird health theories and practices…with fake research heralded as a new dawn and adopted by dumplings in our NHS

  54. bigneil
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    I suspect those in power here but want to stay in the EU are hoping for a “reward” job in the EU for their efforts if successful. Traitors in power are not uncommon.

  55. ChrisS
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    It’s obvious that we should not be offering to pay anything to allow the 27 to continue to sell us much more than we sell to them. The whole idea is proposterous but they are so breathtakingly arrogant that they regard our agreement to their demand for a huge payment as inevitable.

    In the circumstances, Mrs May is being foolish and naive if she thinks that €20bn will be anything like enough to placate them.

    They will want at least 3-4 times that before they will even start talking about any kind of trade deal. A payment of that magnitude would be political dynamite here – it will cause uproar amongst taxpayers and if we agreed to pay it, we would look incredibly weak.

    Hardly the image we want to establish as we are about to rejoin the world stage as the independent fifth largest economy. It would give Dr Fox a very weak hand with which to play with in future trade negotiations

    Far better to stand firm and call their bluff.

    I would follow our host’s line and ask them how much they are prepared to pay us to continue with their advantageous trade surplus. When they say nothing and refuse to even contemplate trade negotiations, we walk away and wait for them to choose on which goods they want to impose tariffs. We can then reciprocate.

    I suspect that lobbying by influencial businesses in Germany and France will then start and there will then be a small chance that common sense might prevail. They might then decide not to go down the tariff route. Defacto free trade by the back door.

  56. Sarah
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    What is going on then John? Perhaps you could explain it to the punters.The Conservative parties approach is baffling to the rest of us?

    • John Soper
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 6:16 am | Permalink

      Yes, please explain. Why is Mrs May offering money to the EU when as you have explained tirelessly they need us so much more than we need them?

      • miami.mode
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 11:30 am | Permalink

        The Remainers in the cabinet are plainly worried that after our exit any loss of employment that can be directly attributed to Brexit will be politically highly toxic and a gift to the Labour party.

  57. CharlesE
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    What we’ll get from brexit is exit from the EU and the way it looks now is that it will be a hard brexit mainly because dear old Boris and others have mrs May by the throat so there can be no wriggle room for the government..and that’s it.. there will be no transitional period agreement with the EU either because there is no clear or collective decision as to where we want to go.

    The only thing clear is that Boris wznts to be PM as does DD and Michael gove..all out for themselves only..but not thinking about the country or the future. We are sunk

    • Oggy
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

      CE – ‘ it will be a hard brexit mainly because dear old Boris and others have mrs May by the throat so there can be no wriggle room for the government..and that’s it.. . ‘there will be no transitional period agreement with the EU either ‘

      I sincerely hope so ! – it’s time we stopped being subservient to Brussells.

  58. Joan Wild
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    You are needed in the Cabinet.

  59. Denis Cooperso
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    “It is time to remind ourselves of why a majority voted to leave.”

    Obviously there were many factors swaying voters in both directions, but no doubt one of the factors in favour of voting to leave was a deep weariness of being swindled by the EU time and again, year after year, and often with the connivance of our own politicians; and so what has the EU been attempting to do since we voted to leave?

    I think we’ve got the point where Theresa May should give the other EU leaders a clear and firm message: either start negotiating seriously, or we will abandon your Article 50 process and exercise our right of withdrawal under wider international law.

  60. ferdinand
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    All good sense but why are we using Remainers to particulate in our exit. Is there not a whiff of treachery ?

  61. Eh?
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    What we want from Brexit is an end to a pernicious and eventually most evil ideology you can dub EUisma or EUism. So broad, this mental construct bypasses logical thought and perverts a nations economics, politics, agriculture, civil society, health care and the Young.
    When you get say the LibDems and Greens coming up with unutterably bizarre complex arguments supporting the idea that Absolute Democracy or Ultra Democracy such as the all-party agreed Referendum on 23rd June 2016 was in fact the opposite then you see what damage has been done to these otherwise intelligent people. They are affected and could be said to be infected mentally by the ideology of EUisma.
    Brexit should be the freeing of minds such as theirs, returning them to quietude and equilibrium . Many are young enough still to make a valid contribution to a new society of freedom.Much older ones, no, they’re passed it whether they have a hat on and wink uncontrollably or not.

  62. Tom Rogers
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Pay them nothing other than what we legally and morally owe them arising from existing commitments and responsibilities.

    Let’s leave.

    • Stuart K
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

      Well said, Tom.

  63. Duncan
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Cabinet Minister quoted today as saying:

    ‘We will end very close to the EEA’

    Brexit is lost, democracy has been circumvented by unelected mandarins

    I’d like to thank all those cowards on the Tory backbenches for watching this on the sidelines as our country is sacrificed on the altar of the EU

    The TORY PARTY IS DEAD

    • Soft Brexit
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

      If we end up remaining in the EEA, I’ll be delighted, it’s the only way Brexit won’t seriously harm our economy.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 22, 2017 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

        Then I expect no economic depression in the future.

        If anything bad happens to us in the EEA (and it already is – being covered up as we speak) then it is the Remainers’ fault entirely.

  64. Remington Norman
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Absolutely, John. Perhaps someone should tell Mrs May and the Cabinet who seem bent on making costly and unnecessary concessions to Brussels.

  65. Augustyn
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    I’ve just been reading the wonderfully clear Economic Policy Centre’s report which identifies the external EU tariffs applying to the various categories of products. They say the £3 billion or so raised by the UK in 2015 was sent to Brussels. can I take it this is additional to the 20 billion Euro membership contribution?

  66. lojolondon
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Out of the EU, we can tax all those international companies locally – like Amazon, Google, Microsoft, IBM, Apple and the rest…. instead of paying tax in Lichtenstein (etc.) on revenues collected in the UK, they will pay tax in the UK.

  67. Tony Sharp
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    The point about a No Deal is that the Remoaners really do believe the EU will enter into a trade embargo – ie refuse to sell us things. This would make all past UN embargos look like a corner shop boycott!
    Or is the EU threatening to dump lots of low priced goods on us?
    Either scenario is nor only impossible – it is actaully illegal in the EU constitution!

  68. ale bro
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Farming subsidies – the only solution for this is to remove all subsidies, and to apply tariffs to imported goods that do receive subsidies.

    There is no case to be made for UK taxpayers to subsidise anything.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

      Indeed and certainly not farming. Farm land if far too expensive due to these daft subsidies (and the absurd green crap grants) they needs to fall.

  69. Lawrence Hartley
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    I totally agree with all the points made.

    As for the final point of paying £20 billion for a Trade Deal ! Trade is decided by companies buying from suppliers offering the best value for money in the things you want to buy, not by Governments.

    With the devaluation of Sterling we’re more competetive in the world, and still competetive in the EU even with WTO Tarriffs.

    Lower some of our Tarriffs after we’re free of the EU’s protectionis Tarrifs, and conclude some FTA’s and our Trade will flourish without having to pay £20 billion for it !

  70. Julian
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Why do people talk about some bill paid to the EU for leaving when what we need to say is simply…
    “we will honour our financial commitments in full whilst we are members of the EU and pay for any ongoing project which we agree to participate in when we do leave. ”
    just a thought to make it clear.

  71. rose
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Out of the EU we will no longer be subject to across-the-continent rules and regulations which endanger life and limb. Or result in the catastrophic loss of animals, as for example the rule that all abattoirs should have a trained vet in attendance. This led to small abattoirs being shut and eventually to the catastrophe of the last foot and mouth outbreak when affected animals had to be transported across country rather than being dealt with locally. ( Some continental vets take a year to train but ours take 7 years and are very expensive.) Crazy to legislate like that across an entire continent. No successful empire would do that.

  72. HJ
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    I’m not sure why John thinks that removing VAT on domestic fuel would be a good thing. It is already at a rate of only 5%, whereas I can see no reason why it shouldn’t be levied at the normal (currently 20%) rate.

    Who has the biggest fuel bills? Those with the biggest houses, i.e. the better off. If we need to help those on low incomes with their fuel bills it would be better to do it through the benefits system, which would be cheaper. The fewer exemptions and reduced rate of VAT, the better as this would allow VAT rates (or other taxes) to be cut.

  73. The Prangwizard
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    We voted for OUT. Not partly out or loosely linked or any of that treachery.

    No payment no transition. OUT FROM MARCH.

  74. VotedOut
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    £18 billion = 16 hospitals like Barts
    £18 billion = 6 aircraft carriers
    £18 billion = 18 type 45 destroyers
    £18 billion = crossrail with cash to spare
    £18 billion = 8% of health and social care spending 2016/17

    For 45 years we the British people, have been *told* what we have to accept.

    In 2016 we were asked if we agreed with that. The answer was *no*.

    There is hardly a politician living that can remember the time when government was by the agreement of the British people. So I understand the confusion in Westminster.

    But please remember, being ordinary plebs we would prefer to be asked, rather than told.

    On June 2016 we gave an answer.

    We expect that to be honored.

  75. Tabulazero
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr Redwood,

    After reading your latest entry, I am happy to inform you that I happen to be in possession of a slightly used but well maintained bridge I might be inclined to sell you. Would you be interested by any chance?

    Regards.

  76. Wee Chef
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    So, the Cabinet after a three hour meeting have agreed on a speech. I bet their families are glad they do not decide on the menu for a family Sunday lunch.

  77. John S
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    It appears that Theresa May is going to give a sweetener in the order of £15m to the EU. If she is, then it should come with strings. If we do not agree on a trade deal and other matters then the offer must be withdrawn. I, personally, do not believe we should give them anything. However in the world of realpolitik, bearing in mind the weak position of the PM, if this results in unity, I suppose we will have to go along with it.

    • John S
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

      Sorry I of course meant £15b

  78. Chris
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    This, from Coffeehouse James Forsyth, is very bad news. This should never have happened:
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/this-new-tory-brexit-battle-will-be-the-bloodiest-of-all/
    ..”But the EEA-minus crowd — led by Chancellor Philip Hammond and Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood (one thing that Brexit should explode is the myth that the civil service are impartial actors) — are the ones with their tails up. Talking to keen Brexiteers in the past few days I have sensed an immense nervousness about where things are going. There is a general feeling that they are being successfully cast as zealots and are losing the internal argument. By contrast, the cabinet ministers pushing for EEA-minus (who voted Remain) are upbeat. One predicts: ‘That’s where we’ll end up. Not in but very close.’ They believe that civil servant Olly Robbins’s move from the Brexit department to No. 10 should help secure that shift. One senior Brexit department figure tells me: ‘Olly Robbins and Treasury civil servants are in favour of EEA-lite’. That’s why those pushing for this course are so delighted that Robbins is working for May. They believe his presence, and his close relationship with the Prime Minister (they worked together at the Home Office), will help steer her down this path…”

    How and why have Remainers plus Jeremy Hewood been allowed to dictate the course of action, apparently in defiance of what we voted for in Brexit? If there is a fudge, then May will never be forgiven, and to employ cliché, the Cons will be toast. They will deserve it, too.

  79. Simon Coleman
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    “It is time to remind ourselves of why a majority voted to leave. We expect a better future as a result, with or without a deal with the EU.” This is just plain wrong. The Referendum question contained no subsidiary questions about how we should exit or whether we should seek a deal or not. If you Brexiteers stopped peddling lies like this to keep your followers in a state of pent-up, righteous fury, there would be a calmer environment for debate. You’ve also conveniently ignored the General Election outcome, despite the fact that May called it for the express reason of gaining a mandate for a hard Brexit (i.e. no EU deal required). THERE IS NO MANDATE FOR TAKING BRITAIN OUT OF THE EU WITHOUT A DEAL. That is a fact, Mr Redwood. The government, and a majority of MPs, have decided that a deal is in the country’s best interests. That is the overwhelming consensus.

  80. Iain Moore
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    “The EU is not offering anything we need pay €20 bn for!”

    Agreed. It seems a small group of companies want us to subsidise their trade with the EU. This would seem to go against WTO trade rule. If we are paying for access to the EU market, we are essentially subsidising companies by the tax payer picking up the tariff cost that these companies would incur by paying it in a one off payment. From all my understanding of WTO rules, that is an infringement .

  81. Nig l
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Check out the bbc. 20 billion to access single market and some form of customs union.

    Well JR, what says you

    • graham1946
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

      He said ‘Rubbish’ when I said this a few weeks ago – mind you I did say 30 billion over 3 years. I see you got no answer this time. His boss is on a sell out mission.

  82. The Prangwizard
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Another partly off topic but I’ve had the delight of listening to President Trump’s speech to the UN.

    Magnificent – about freedom of the individual, national sovereignty self reliance and mutual respect from strength.

    Sadly our leadership under Mrs May is unlikely to say anything similar as it surrenders to the EU and betrays the referendum..

  83. Gary C
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Bizarre indeed !

    I feel those who voted to leave know exactly why they wanted to do so, what I do not understand is why remainers want to:

    Continue to pay a large contribution into an over bloated, overbearing, dictatorial regime.

    Continue to allow other’s to dictate our rate of tax.

    Continue to waste our money on useless overseas projects.

    Continue to destroy our fishing grounds.

    Continue their dogmatic ‘you need us’ attitude so hampering new trade agreements.

    Continue to allow others to shape our laws.

    Continue to tell us who we should let into ‘our’ country.

    Etc etc etc!

    I personally think we (The UK) have many skilled entrepreneurs, designers, inventors, builders, workers etc etc who will see us well in the future and those that think we cannot survive without the EU are doing a disservice to the many capable, loyal, hardworking people in the UK.

    Those who want to remain could always go and live and work in one of the many countries that are members of the EU. Choose carefully though as you may end up very disappointed.

    You are of course very welcome to stay but if you decide to do that do us all a favour, stop the whining and put some thought into making Brexit work.

  84. Martin
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Those who voted to leave were mostly OAPs who are protected by the national debt (state pension triple lock) from any economic downside. All they want is to wave flags, sing silly songs and pretend the British Empire is alive and well.

    • graham1946
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

      How did you come by that as it was a secret ballot? Got any figures and source?

  85. Edward
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    All of that, well said Mr. John Redwood, the pity of it is, you are not part of the [Leave the EU] decision making process, and a few of the cabinet could do with a word, a confab with your good self.

  86. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Oh look, this is amusing:

    https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/139102

    “Barnier: UK risks undermining trust in Brexit talks”

    This is from the representative of an organisation which has long been notorious for its lack of respect for its own treaties and laws, which it applies rigorously enough when it finds that convenient but which it otherwise bends or breaks or ignores.

  87. Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Control of our own money eh John ? Have another 20/30/40 billion Michel is that OK with you ? Not so simple now is it ?

  88. Edwardm
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    I agree with you entirely in this and previous posts. Thank you for stating issues clearly and as you say the big issues are not difficult to understand. There is a very positive case for total Brexit from March 2019 – as long as it knows the situation business will adapt. The EU is showing itself to be a far worse bullying organisation than ever I realised, and it is essential we do not yield to its extortions for protection money – to do so will send a wrong signal about the UK to the dictators in the world. Thank you for fully standing up for us, the British people, especially when so many MPs appear to favour the EU or else take a halfway position.
    (Perhaps it may be helpful to have a referendum on how much the British people are prepared to pay to leave the EU, eg options being: 0, upto 10, upto 20 billion – the figure above which there is a majority being accepted. For any amount over zero, this will force the appeasers to justify asking our taxpayers to subsidise the EU).

  89. Iain Gill
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Oh dear if Ms may is saying what is reported it is a very bad thing

    Let’s hope she gets kicked out quickly.

    The political class once again showing how completely out of touch they are.

  90. G
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Well said again. And twice the clear voice of reason on Radio 4 Radio 5 Live. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again I wish John Redwood was in charge!!!

  91. G
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    The thing I like most about Dr. Redwood’s arguments is his very insightful observation about the benefit to the European Union of being freed from the stalling and resistance of the UK.

    One would have thought they would be almost slavering at the mouth at the thought of being able to carry out their grand vision unimpeded by us! Total integration and central control, the European Army and all sorts. They could surely be sold on this alone!

    And the UK as a continuing close partner no less. If the UK has free trade agreements world-wide, and the EU has free trade arrangements with the UK, does that mean the EU has a possible channel of free world-wide, if they so choose? They have not been persuaded of the many possible advantages. And that is a direct weakness of our own negotiating strategy. The Rt. Hon. Redwood is the ONLY one to have identified it!

    And as for money, and how much they will miss our contributions, well it is about time they gave a proper kick up the ass to their members, and let it be known that the gravy train has pulled in!

  92. Ron Jedward
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Oh, grow up and take some responsibility.

    • G
      Posted September 22, 2017 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

      What the hell are you talking about?…

  93. Supporter of hanging
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    There is much talk of the Cabinet giving away our money. So long as they earmark 50% of their salaries and expenses to charity there is not much wrong with the idea of MPs who do not value being elected at the next General Election. They could keep bees or trout or, go AWOL to decency and honesty and sport a dead stoat round their necks in the House of Lords as testament to their wisdom and maturity.

  94. Frenchy
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    I do not know why Marine Le Pen has been rattled enough to start tweeting again. Our neighbour France has always been verboten in many respects of our glorious media. But she appeared to be in hibernation even a few days ago but is now activated. If French voters had a mind, of course, they would not vote for Macron irrespective of Le Pen. It must be something in their water. A dumbing influence

  95. Soft Brexit
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    ‘I am tired of listening to endless negotiations amongst ourselves.’

    I admit, it must be hard having your ‘it’s so simple’ approach potentially rejected to some extent tomorrow. One could almost be forgiven for thinking the Government is being sensible.

  96. fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    So Mrs May is planning to pay the EU at least 18m Euros for a 2 year transitional period. I see Junker is already making jokes about it. That’s all we are – a joke to the rest of the world. Who knows what will happen during this time. Another government is very possible and then we may never leave. But then that’s what a lot of us thought in the first place.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

      Sorry, that should read 18b euros. Still, what’s few euros amongst friends?

  97. miami.mode
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    David Davis said that an agreement had been reached on EHIC cards, but as this scheme seems to work in favour of the EU it would appear that the score thus far is 1-0 for them.

  98. Mark
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Do we assume that €20bn isn’t agreed until everything is agreed? Can we take it off the table if the EU fail to pursue negotiations? Is it in any case really simply an extension of EU membership for two years on article 7 terms (no voting rights)? Doubtless all will be revealed in Florence.

  99. anon
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    The EU has its very own printing press they do not need ours. They can print as much money as they need. This is all political games & theatre to try and manipulate and tie us in.

    No further delay. Just leave. No deal. No further payments. No legal tie- ins to subvert whats left of our democracy.

    Any further payments will completely destroy any credibility any government will have for raising taxes to transfer purchasing power to “rich” 3rd countries.

    Further, there will be a backlash against any and all who sign up to this including calls to tax retrospectively,those who attempt to force this abuse of powers on the people.

    It will be open season on any and all MP’s that sign up to this.
    and the say

    “Sorry no money left for you though.”

  100. Ron Olden
    Posted September 21, 2017 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    This is a dangerous and likely foolish offer to make.

    It might well be, that in the end this sort of sum will be appropriate as part if a clean break, and to secure a permanent deal on various things, but offering it like this, with nothing in return courts disaster.

    They’ll just pocket the offer and this sum will become the new starting point for negotiations.

    There is nothing whatsoever anywhere in the Treaty which requires a departing country to pay anything as a ‘Divorce Settlement’. They have resolutely refused to tell us either the legal basis for requiring any money, or the amount they want.

    Without a Treaty obligation, it can’t be paid in UK law either. Both Houses of Parliament will have to vote for this, and it’s in none of the parties manifestos.

    Were I a Tory MP I would bend over backwards to help the Government with Brexit and swallow a lot, but I wouldn’t vote for this payment unless I was satisfied with what we were getting for it.

    It what we were being offered however, was free access to the Single Market on terms preferential to rest of the World, what would the WTO have to say about us having achieved it by paying a bribe? That must surely be in breach of WTO law.

    And why aren’t we demanding anything for them accessing our market?

    Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty says as follows:-

    1. The Union SHALL (Note not ‘may’), develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and GOOD NEIGHBOURLINESS, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on co-operation.

    2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation.

    If, therefore, the EU attempts to deny co-operation with its’ biggest neighbouring country (it even shares a border with part of it), unless we pay money we don’t legally owe, the EU is in breach of both Article 50 and Article 8 and is liable to be sued in the European Court of Justice.

    The UK might have left the EU but that doesn’t mean we can’t sue it, or it’s Member States for violation of its’ Treaty obligations. Just as they could sue us in the UK Courts if we violated UK law to their disadvantage.

    When we leave the the EU the Treaty no longer applies to us, but it still applies to the EU and the EU countries.

  101. William Bojczuk
    Posted September 22, 2017 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    I respectfully invite you to stop using the phrase “the money we get back from the EU” (or words to that effect). We will not get any money back from the EU on departure, they will stop getting as much money from us. The correct term is “the money we will no longer have to pay to the EU” (or words to that effect).

  102. McBryde
    Posted September 22, 2017 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    The fascist show of force in Spain demonstrates how Madrid is committed to the European federal power.

    We have to watch out – I don’t think the ‘powers that be ‘ (merchant banks, corporations, etc??) will let us get away with democracy now.

    All along Brexit has just been an annoyance to those who steer the new European power project, and will stop at nothing to get their way.

    It’s all a pretense. Look how Carney is still in place. Look how May keeps veering off track.

    They cannot be trusted, and strong stances such as seen from Boris will have to become commonplace.

  103. Chriss
    Posted September 22, 2017 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    It’s obvious that we should not be offering to pay anything to allow the 27 to continue to sell us much more than we sell to them. The whole idea is proposterous but they are so breathtakingly arrogant that they regard our agreement to their demand for a huge payment as inevitable.

    In the circumstances, Mrs May is being foolish and naive if she thinks that €20bn will be anything like enough to placate them.

    They will want at least 3-4 times that before they will even start talking about any kind of trade deal. A payment of that magnitude would be political dynamite here – it will cause uproar amongst taxpayers and if we agreed to pay it, we would look incredibly weak.

    Hardly the image we want to establish as we are about to rejoin the world stage as the independent fifth largest economy. It would give Dr Fox a very weak hand with which to play with in future trade negotiations

    Far better to stand firm and call their bluff.

    I would follow our host’s line and ask them how much they are prepared to pay us to continue with their advantageous trade surplus. When they say nothing and refuse to even contemplate trade negotiations, we walk away and wait for them to choose on which goods they want to impose tariffs. We can then reciprocate.

    I suspect that lobbying by influencial businesses in Germany and France will then start and there will then be a small chance that common sense might prevail. They might then decide not to go down the tariff route. Defacto free trade by the back door.

  104. Monza 71
    Posted September 22, 2017 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Sitting here waiting for Mrs May’s Speech to start and listening to various news channels, it all seems over blown. They seem to be intent on setting her up for a fall because I’m sure they/we all know that whatever she offers, if it’s less than €bn60-80 it will be rejected out of hand.

    Is there anyone who doubts that the remainer-media, Labour and the LibDems will have no hesitation in blaming our Government for the negative reaction by everyone on the other side of the Channel ?

    Nigel Farage was on Daily Politics and was absolutely right : we are going through an exercise with Brussels negotiators who don’t want a deal. Only the 27 member states can knock heads together in Brussels and ensure there is any kind of deal.

    Will they do it ?

    I doubt it anytime soon. In the coming months when little or no progress is being made, our Government will need to be absolutely steadfast in the face of severe criticism from Starmer, Cable and the likes of Ken Clarke and ensure that the blame is firmly laid at Brussel’s door.

  105. Prigger
    Posted September 22, 2017 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Stanley Laurel and Theresa May go to Florence …” Brexit means Remain “

  106. a-tracy
    Posted September 28, 2017 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    We want the excuses to end. We want to be able to hold the government we elect responsible if they don’t spend our taxes wisely. I read Corbyn’s speech and his UK problems aren’t the ones I see locally.

    Workers are getting more pay, in fact they’re getting more pay plus a NEST workplace pension in addition to their normal national insurance cover. They have got this extra pay with a reducing hours of work to give them more leisure time.

    NHS services – we have needed to use the NHS service twice recently one for a routine test and one a referral from our GP that told us we would be seen faster on the NHS than through our private medical insurance so get that! We were indeed seen within one week for each appointment at the hospital. Both services were delivered quickly and efficiently – better than it was in the past.

    Schools – these larger class sizes are they resulting in a lowering of standards or an improving of standards because the biggest failing primary school in my local area has a class size of only 16! Are these failing schools in Labour areas, what are the Conservative government doing about holding them and their governors to account?

    There is talk by Corbyn that your party want to bundle May out of office, yet everything I read is a united Tory party who are saying they support her in position? The rest is just tittle tattle and gossip, hardly something to base your speech upon.

    I’ve read ex-army people are having problems getting good careers, is this true, if you are short of firemen and policemen why aren’t they offered transfers, or part-time work in these roles?

    Labours idea to end tuition fees for graduates is a very unfair proposal as all students studying since Labour introduced tuition fees are paying their graduate tax and those best qualified, highest earning graduates are then going to be taxed more at the higher rate to pay for freeloaders behind them. There will also be higher taxes for people who have worked hard and built themselves up without a university education who will then need to plug the gap for the new 50% ++ of students coming up who won’t be contributing.

    I hope your conference gives hope and encouragement to our children, they endlessly hear on their social media of Corbyn’s Santa Clause policies and believe they won’t have to pay for them, who these rich people are to them I can’t imagine?

    The one thing Labour are good at is spending money, but when they run out and can’t borrow any more (remember it was them that went PFI crazy) they can’t create money, they can only spend money.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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