What kind of Remain did Remain voters vote for?

Throughout the referendum campaign Remain advocates refused to discuss the current state and the future path of the EU. Many of those I debated with declined even to defend the current EU, saying it had its faults and they wished it to be reformed.  I found few willing to defend the Common Fisheries Policy, the drift to common taxation through EU VAT, company tax rules and special taxes, the policy on animal husbandry, the Maastricht budget rules and austerity and much else of the current EU. Had we enjoyed a proper debate on the current and future EU I suspect more would have voted Leave. For those passionate Remainers who write in  here I am offering them a chance today to write about their favourite subject, why we should stay in the EU. Here are some possible futures of the EU. Which did they have in mind when they voted to keep the UK in membership?

1″Ever closer union”. Do they accept the main aims of the EU, to create a full monetary, social, economic and political union?  When do they think the UK should join in properly, by joining the Euro, the core of the current Union? Do they accept that the Euro with or without UK membership will need a bigger and better transfer union  to help the poorer countries in the Euro? Do they support a bigger EU  budget to bring that about? Do they welcome more EU based taxes to pay for Union policies? Do they welcome a common defence and security policy? Should UK armed forces be part of European forces and accept command from the EU?

2. If they wish to avoid some  features of ever closer union, how would they secure the necessary opt outs as the Union proceeds with a fuller budgetary and political union? How realistic is it for the UK to be round the  budget table for the general EU budget but not round the table for the Euro area budget? At what point does the opt out from the currency cease to  be an opt out from the budgetary consequences of the Euro? What would the UK have to do if there were another financial or banking  crisis in the Euro area?  How far can the UK allow defence industrial integration go before it is no longer an independent nation for defence purposes?

3. Are there any limits to government expansion and legal creep which characterise the advance of the EU? Do advocates accept that the more ECJ decisions there are, the  more regulations and directives there are, the more we are governed by the EU institutions and the less scope our Parliament has for independent action and lawmaking. The EU has a doctrine of the occupied field. Once it passes a directive or regulation, it then has power in that area and can override national parliaments. Recently the EU has for example taken over much of the regulation of the new social media and digital industries which are crucial for our future.  Surely at some point there has to be greater recognition in  the democratic system of the big transfer of power which is occurring, with strengthened democratic control over the EU Commission and the European Court of Justice, which is an activist court with a political mission.

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  1. What Tiler
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    I await cogent answers with some eagerness.

    I expect tumbleweed.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:35 am | Permalink

      That’s the trouble with Infantile Absolutism, especially when coupled with a delusional obsession with Immaterial Symbolism.

      The afflicted would leap from a jumbo jet at forty thousand feet because they did not like the in-flight movie, divorce their wife because her lipstick was smudged, shoot their dog because it had a flea, leap overboard on a January night on a North Sea ferry because the waiter was insufficiently courteous, and burn down their house because they were bored with the wallpaper.

      Or vote to leave the European Union, because of a small possibility of some of John’s predictions having a just-detectable negative effect on their lives in the future, whilst ignoring the facts of all the present benefits.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

        What a bizarre post from you Martin.
        Are you feeling OK?

        • gus jackson
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

          PTSD can affect people in many differents ways, add some Stockholm Syndrome on top, and folk like Martin can’t face reality.
          They tried to say is was “older voters” who mainly voted to Leave, and, subsequently, “younger ones” who voted to Remain.
          There’s no substitute for experience, as they say, and imo the whole situation points to our EU Guided Education System and it’s constant brainwashing. How many times have you heard “School’s not what it used to be, the Exam’s are easier nowadays”. Apparently the wheel has been reinvented several times in recent years, there are now over 30 genders, Men speak to random Women at their peril, and, so on.
          The empty vessels, young Remainers, have sucked this up, and older, wiser folk like Martin are using that separation madness as some kind of a tool to show how angry they are. Demonstrating by proxy.
          Long gone are the time when young people used to ‘March for this ‘n’ that. Now they’ve been mentally coshed, so much that they now ‘March for the Establishment, the EU.
          Aldous Huxley was right.

      • tim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

        Martin, seroiusly, I am not joking, please please see a Doctor, show him what you have written. I think we will all agree on that.

      • Alan jutson
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

        And the positives of membership are ?

        • Colin McRobbie
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:01 am | Permalink

          Keeping the peace process alive. the GFA was one of the finest peace agreements in modern times . over 2o years, thousands negotiators, two referendums and Brexit wants to risk that don’t understand why people would want to risk children’s live san happiness when we have a great agreement in place. until you can renegotiate GFA then Brexit at least for the island of Ireland cant happen. No alternative arrangements have been agreed by nationalists in north so cant use any of the ones mentioned so far. sorry but GFA comes 1st

          • Know-Dice
            Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:57 am | Permalink

            Have you read the Belfast Agreement?

            Maybe you missed the small section about the ROI/Northern Ireland border.

            This is all it says on page 25 of 35 pages:


            1. The participants note that the development of a peaceful environment on the basis of this agreement can and should mean a normalisation of security arrangements and practices.
            2. The British Government will make progress towards the objective of as early a return as possible to normal security arrangements in Northern Ireland, consistent with the level of threat and with a published overall strategy, dealing with:
            (i) the reduction of the numbers and role of the Armed Forces deployed in Northern Ireland to levels compatible with a normal peaceful society;
            (ii) the removal of security installations;
            (iii) the removal of emergency powers in Northern Ireland; and
            (iv) other measures appropriate to and compatible with a normal peaceful society.

            No mention of “NO hard border”, no mention of NO normal customs checks at the border….

            Check it for yourself here – https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement

          • Colin mcrobbie
            Posted September 11, 2019 at 2:35 am | Permalink

            Yes you are 100% right. No mention of new border checks which Would be part of brexit Well done on pointing that out

            The biggest trick of the GFA agreement that the uk negotiators had was to kid on to the nationalists that they were part of one Ireland. Brexit changes that and the nationalist negotiators have said that very points. It is not the Uk mainland people that you have to tell, it’s the nationalists you have to sit down with. So far this has not been done and they see brexit breaking the GFA. Brexit can’t happen until uk negotiatates with them

      • libertarian
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

        Martin In Cardiff

        What a pathetic response

        List the benefits that cant be obtained outside without the £380 million per week cost

        Also look up Stockholm Syndrome

      • Fred H
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

        Martin….seriously….do seek professional help.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

        You state no good reasons for remaining. Just blather on with no intention of looking at the facts that John is pointing out.

      • margaret howard
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

        Martin in Cardiff


        Judging by the infantile comments your observations have solicited you have hit a nerve. A sane voice about Brexit – an insane event.

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

          Margaret Howard, The infantile comments are all Martin’s. Brexit bears no resemblance whatever to his strained, silly, and infantile analogies. Brexit simply puts the UK in the same position in regard to the EU as New Zealand is, or all the other 164 states on the planet not in the EU.

          Still can’t think of any advantages of remaining in the EU that are not vastly outweighed by the advantages of being independent? Thought not!

      • Nigel Seymour
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

        My Mother is 91 and dying. She thinks you should all grow up. She voted in 2016 in honour of my Father (RAF), her Father In-Law (the Somme) in the hope that she will see this Great Britain and NI once again become a sovereign nation and freed from the yoke of the EU…

        Wok Const

      • C Beevers
        Posted September 13, 2019 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

        Benefits? What benefits?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

      Talking of tumbleweed, I just watched Emily Thornberry on the daily politics what a complete joke she and the Labour line is. No wonder they are scared to death of an election. Steve Baker wiped the floor with her despite her endless interruptions.

      She was left spluttering on about “Speak your Weight weighing scales” if she thinks this will wash at the election she is totally deluded.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        I wonder what put “Speak your Weight weighing scales” into her rather confused and deluded mind?

        Does she have some at home perhaps? Steve Baker did not sound remotely like one. He was just pointing out the obvious and sensible truth but she did not seem to comprehend.

        Perhaps because she was too busy interrupting him with idiotic drivel to listen to him.

        • Longinus
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

          ‘Speak your lorry’s weight weighing scales.’

        • Hope
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

          JR, Johnsons statement in Ireland today appears to be the beginning of his capitulation. The phrase no deal is a failure of state craft is backtracking from the position no deal is better than a bad deal, or other comments he made about Mayhabs plan being vassalage etc.

          Steve Baker made it clear today on TV that he and other ministers were working on a trade deal with the EU based on Tusk’s offer. This was rejected and destroyed behind their backs by Mayhabs Chequers backstabbing servitude plan which betrayed our nation.

          You need to ask the more poignant question: why did Mayhab sell out our nation despite being offered a trade deal by the EU that ministers were working to achieve? Why did Mayhab severely betray our nation with those who we are witnessing today are still trying to achieve her aims to keep the UK as a vassal state or trade colony of the EU?

          I sense betrayal from Johnson that will lead to the destruction of your party as well as Labour. Brexit Party is the country’s salvation.

          • Colin McRobbie
            Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:41 am | Permalink

            isn’t peace no 1 800 years of troubles in northern Ireland solved with one the best peace agreements in modern times

            so far no new negotiations on the GFA which of course was passed with massive majorities on two referendums, why would you risk that . the nationalists who signed the GFA have said no to any of the proposed alternative arrangements. peace comes 1st always for children and families,. Brexit can happen once the GFA has been renegotiated

  2. Mark B
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    At last it seems our kind host is going on the offensive. At the time of the referendum I was highlighting what EVER CLOSER UNION meant. It is at the core of the EU and means more power for it at the expense of national parliaments and the people. It is fundamentally undemocratic.

    There are many things about the Vichy Remainers’ one does not like but, one of the things less highlighted compared to the Leave opposites is, the lack of conviction in their beliefs. Leave supporters believe in their country and fellow countrymen. Remainers lack any belief in this country and cannot articulate any convincing arguments for the the EU. It is into this void that they mumble about ‘reform’ but are extremely vague on what ‘reforms’ they would like to see and how is it best achieved. Of course I could be wrong and it would be nice for some so called Vichy Remainers to finally put forward their case for the EU. Just please don’t expect me to hold my breath 😉

    Finally. Amber Rudd MP resigning the whip is a tactical move. She has less than a thousand majority and would lose her seat to the BP. So best for her to step aside. Alas if this is indeed the case then the CCHQ have miscalculated. I believe unless they get full assurances that we are to get a full BREXIT then even our kind host can expect a challenge from the BP. You have been warned !

    • Mark B
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      Come on, Sir John. Why are you holding this up ?

  3. Dominic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    The Leave position was absolutely clear and transparent. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. Cameron and May re-emphasised this point ad-infinitum. It is the Remain position that is utterly ambiguous and exposed to continual change. To Remain translates into the eventual destruction of the nation State as the EU drives towards to full political and economic union.

    We must always expose Remain to the contra-argument. Therefore, Leave must ask of Remain what type of Remain they voted for when Remain demands of Leave the same response

    The Remain position as expounded by political agents of the EU based in the UK is one of deceit, lies and subterfuge and they must be exposed at every turn

    • APL
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

      Dominic: “It is the Remain position that is utterly ambiguous and exposed to continual change. ”

      Remain could not, nor can make any undertakings about the direction of the EU had we stayed in. It simply wasn’t nor is under their control.

  4. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    This should be interesting John. So far we have heard of no good reasons for staying in the EU. I wonder if we will all be enlightened today? I find the prospect of continued membership positively frightening and can see no benefit to us. I resent having to support French farmers, and I want to gain the ability to run our own affairs. If we make mistakes then at least they are our mistakes and we can change what we are doing wrong. If the EU are calling the shots and we don’t find it suits us then if we don’t comply we can expect a fine. I say enough!

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:43 am | Permalink


    There are virtually no democratic controls over the Commission or the activist ECJ. The EU is not even a sensible demos on which to have a democracy. Even if there were more democracy resting on this Demos it would largely act against the interest of the UK due to the nature of the Demos. Almost everything the EU does has been damaging. The ERM, the EURO, CAP, Fisheries, VAT, the endless red tape in employment laws and health and safety, the landfill rules, the carbon tax lunacy, the pushing dopes diesel cars in cities, the smart electric meters and all the rest that you mention above.

  6. Peter Wood
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Sir John,

    Don’t fall into this trap! We do not need to debate the pros and cons of EU membership; the decision has been taken. (Remainers want to continue the argument as they think it will encourage a new referendum)
    We voted out; all efforts need to be addressing getting out by 31/10 and ensuring that we leave with minimal disruption.

    • Alison
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

      Peter Wood, I disagree, in that I think it is extremely important to keep people reminded of the awfulness of the EU, past and future. We are being bombarded, insidiously and overtly, by messages that the EU is wonderful, that’s where our economic prosperity lies, that’s where it’s emotionally wonderful because we can all move around freely.
      I don’t think we should be brash about it. But the vacuum of positive coverage in the period Nov 2016 to the end of Mrs May’s tenure is one of the main reasons we are in this mess. There wasn’t enough pressure on remain MPs to renege on respecting the referendum.
      That’s spilt milk. We cannot afford to ignore any avenue of defence or other.

      • Richard Evans
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

        Alison, There was never any positive coverage of Brexit from the MSM, the EU funded BBC, Sky and CH4. The Brexit Campaign was deliberately starved of a platform. Remember SIX conglomerates own and control the news media narrative and “NEWS is what a certain group of people want you to know”.
        Anyone with any sense can see the EU is falling apart in front of their eyes but unfortunately there are still many who sit in front of the TV and accept everything that is thrown at them.
        I have said from the start the Establishment will never let a Brexteer be PM.
        Boris was a remainer initially and so was Cummings so are they to be trusted? Boris “runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds” and I feel a betrayal staring us in the face. We need to LEAVE no strings attached. You do not negotiate with the EU. Ireland was an EU manufactured False Flag and by the way , why DID Mayhab resign- Brexit?????? It is all available but you need to research.

    • James1
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

      It spoke volumes when ‘Bollocks to Brexit’ Bercow announced his resignation that approximately half of the MPs in the chamber rose to applaud him, and the other half sat in silence. What could be a more fitting tribute or greater proof of the bias that has been shown to the Remain side by he odious little pompous twerp.

  7. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    So how is Boris going to get round this appalling surrender bill, have an accomodation with the Brexit Party, deliver Brexit and bury Corbyn’s and the Marxist Labour Party?

    The 21+ Surrender traitors must never return to the party. They are not a Javid said yesterday on Marr Conservatives at all. To try to bury the the country and the country is totally unforgivable. What sound person could vote for them or a party with them in it anyway.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      I meant:

      The traitors are not, as Javid said on Marr yesterday, ‘Conservatives’, they are not even democrats. Let them join the satirically named Liberal Democrat Party as that is what they clearly are. Anti-liberal and anti-democratic people (and full of green crap) just like almost all Libdims.

      They were only in the Conservatives as it is easier to win elections by pretending to be a Conservative. Alas many more are still in the party, the commons even still in the cabinet. 200 after all voted confidence in May (and even more voted for May’s putrid, servitude, vassal state Withdrawal Treaty).

      • Mark B
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 4:27 am | Permalink

        I don’t seem to remember as much vitriol against Theresa May MP when she withdrew the whip from, Heseltine. Something that was decades overdue.

  8. Dominic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    ‘Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar plans to discuss whether regulatory alignment between Ireland and Northern Ireland might form the basis of a Brexit deal’…From today’s Business Support Network

    There is no such place as Northern Ireland. The border exists between Ireland and the UK. Varadkar is a con-artist. Johnson will pay a heavy price if he chooses to go down this Remain route. The backstop arrangement is a handcuff arrangement. The UK cannot allow itself and its future to be dictated by this sideshow. The EU and Varadkar see the Irish-UK border as our Achilles heel and they will exploit it. The UK must simply dismiss the border issue as meaningless. Ireland has far more to lose than we do

    • Duncan
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

      Stupid thing to say- the UK is made up of two parts as its title says- the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Prior to 1922 it was the United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Britains involvement in Ireland was always a handcuff

      • NickC
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

        Duncan, That is because “Great Britain” is simply the largest island in the British isles – it is not a political term. Ireland is the second largest island in the British isles. There are over 6000 isles in total.

  9. steadyeddie
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    You raise some interesting questions but leaving the EU does not change the position of our friends in Europe. We need to be there to influence the decisions. There are arguments for and against but many of us (16 million in 2016) believe we would rather remain. It is Farage and his supporters who create the bogeyman of Europe when it is sensible politicians who see all the benefits of working with our partners to compete with the power of USA and China in economic, environmental and political arenas.

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

      This is exactly the type of response I was expecting. That is, not actually addressing any of the actual and very real scenarios outlined by our esteemed host, but just habitual remainer denigration of the people who have very real concerns about those scenarios. You have not put my mind at rest, or enabled me to think that the remain view is a reasoned one. I can still only see evil on your side.

      • Richard1
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

        Calm Down. People who disagree with you aren’t automatically ‘evil’.

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

          Richard1, You seriously think the EU isn’t evil? We voted to Leave. That has been stopped by a Remain coup. You seriously think that isn’t evil?

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

      I agree with your sentiments toward our friends in Europe, but not with the suggestion we have significant influence over the governing bodies there. It’s a nice thought but not reality. As to Farage and the bogeyman, I don’t follow Farage per se but I do agree wholeheartedy, that the EU governing bodies are anti-democratic and therefore totally unworthy of our trust.

    • Michael McGrath
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

      “working with our partners to compete with the power of USA and China in economic, environmental and political arenas.”

      Steadyeddie, I believe that you are missing the point and trying to move down a potentially dangerous path.

      We do not want to join in a battle alongside the EU and against the USA and China.

      We want to cooperate and trade with ALL nations as equal partners and for our mutual advantage in ALL cases

    • Gary Mac
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

      ‘Believe we would rather Remain’

      No logic, just belief. Like a religion.

      • Fred H
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

        more like a cult.

    • Mitchel
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      The French Foreign and Defence Ministers are both in Moscow today for talks with their Russian opposite numbers,following on from the meeting between M Macron and President Putin late last month.

      The world’s centre of gravity has moved east.

    • Beecee
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

      So -‘ We need to be there to influence the decisions.’?

      This argument has been used for decades as a big reason for being and remaining in the EU. I suggest you ask Mr Major, Mr Blair, Mr Cameron and Mrs May how much influence they had when they asked for it.

      It runs a set of accounts which do not stand up to Audit scrutiny, which suggests potential misuse of money and/or fraud.

      It is in all regards a Trade-block Dictatorship.

      Partnership? Don’t be delusional!

    • G l JONES
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

      Why then do you not answer those questions?

    • Mustapha Brexit
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

      Is that the best you have?
      We must remain to influence?
      Well chum this has not yet been successful and is not likely to bear fruit in the future
      You really must try harder.
      Why not give us one single unequivocal stand alone positive reason to remain
      Answer that

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

        Mustapha, so far nobody has given a good reason to remain because there isn’t one.

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:40 pm | Permalink


      ”…to influence the decisions…” How? When was the last ”decision” we ”influenced”? I ask because I’d really like to know. We understand that the EU Parliament has no decision-making power.

      You mention ”Europe” – no-one is creating a bogeyman of ‘Europe’, least of all NF. (Though Facebook hysteria makes a bogeyman of HIM.) Aren’t you confusing the EU and Europe, as many remains do?

    • dixie
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

      We do we need to be there to influence decisions? We must we keep being dragged into their squabbles and stand surety for their safety while they abuse and insult us.

      I have no wish nor incentive to help Germany and France compete more effectively at the cost of our economy, people and security.

      • dixie
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

        mistyped … Why do we need to be there …

    • John Hatfield
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

      Farage is correct. The EU is a parasite.Why should we seek a ‘deal’ with the EU? After all no one pins down what a deal means.
      Is a deal one that keeps us in the European Court of Justice, in the Single Market and Customs Union? One that means we continue to pay the EU for a trade deficit? One that allows the EU access to our coastal fisheries? That was what May’s Withdrawal Agreement meant.
      Best we settle for no deal so we are, to quote the then Prime Minister Cameron, out of all those things.
      The British taxpayer has supported the EU business cartels, the only entities that benefit from EU membership for far too long.

  10. Jingleballix
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Remainers often speak of lies that helped procure the referendum result.

    However, the biggest lie was unspoken i.e. that a vote to remain was a vote for the status quo – when it was clear that had the British people voted to stay in the EU, it would have been taken as blind consent for full federalization.

    • Rhodas
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:53 am | Permalink

      Spot on Jingleballix

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

        The two Councils of the European Union, plus its seven hundred and fifty-one MEPs must give their consent to any changes of any kind.

        Also some nations would have to hold referendums.

        JB is not even anywhere near the target.

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

          But you agree there must be many versions of Remain, Martin.

          Which one were you voting for ?

          I don’t recall it on the referendum slip. (Anticipating your answer with confidence.)

        • libertarian
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:26 pm | Permalink


          Ah but referendums in the EU only count if you get the right answer or else you have to vote again

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

          Have you got any examples of these brave democrats refusing consent ?
          There must have been hundreds of possible examples Martin.
          A few will do.

        • Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:14 am | Permalink

          ”…. would have to hold referendums…”
          But what if they come up with the wrong answer? How many should they hold?

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

          Martin said: “Also some nations would have to hold referendums”. Well, that’s no use because referendum results are not obeyed. Moreover only the Commission can originate legislation, not your list of feeble revising institutions.

          Still can’t think of any good reasons to lose our independence?

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

      Oh No! Cameron said we were voting ‘to Remain in a Reformed EU’ complete and utter blatant lie!

  11. GilesB
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    So much of the EU project is deceitful. The Commission knows that elimination of nation states is not what the peoples of Europe want.

    Whenever the EU talks about subsidiarity, that decisions should be taken at the lowest possible administrative level, they do the opposite.

    As an example take consumer protection. Local government can handle this perfectly well pursuing offenders into other jurisdictions as necessary. Instead we have the full palaver if EU regulations: the purpose of which is to boost EU-wide industry associations at the expense of national associations: nothing whatsoever to with effective or efficient consumer protection.

    Similarly undermining national Trade Unions.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

      Please indicate which part of the Lisbon Treaty prefigures “the elimination of the nation state”?

      Trade Union and employment law (bar H&S) is a sovereign, national matter.

      It’s why the Tory UK’s is about the most draconian in the European Union.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

        It is done on the sly, Martin.

        The ECJ and the ECHR are the highest courts of appeal – therefore they can control our law.

        Any EU nation is a de facto controller of our borders. It accepts a migrant, therefore he becomes our migrant – free to travel and live here once granted citizenship. This way the EU controls our borders.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:34 pm | Permalink


        What is it with you lefties that you cant absorb facts ?

        Employment law in the UK is amongst the best in Europe if not the best

        We have one of the highest living wages, The 52 weeks of statutory maternity leave in the UK is considerably longer than the 14 weeks guaranteed by EU law. Of this, a period of 40 weeks is available for shared parental leave, free at the point of use healthcare, workplace pensions, Workers in the UK are entitled to five weeks and three days of paid holiday a year . The Working Time Regulations of 1998 guarantee four weeks of paid leave as a European minimum. But for 35 years before joining the EU, the UK had legislation on paid holidays.

        These rights were fought for by trade unions, the real Labour movement and some Tories long before the EU even existed

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

          Its huge failing is that effectively, Breach Of Contract – the common law – on the part of employers has been effectively legalised in the UK by Tory statute.

          All that is required are a few box-ticking “consultation” exercises.

          Which makes it near-impossible for employees to defend their T&Cs by legal action.

          That is how all those pension schemes were closed, for instance.

          • a-tracy
            Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:16 am | Permalink

            Martin, does Europe have higher protections on private corporate pension schemes that the UK hasn’t implemented?

          • libertarian
            Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

            Martin in Cardiff

            Ha ha ha ha ha funniest post of the day . You have clearly never employed anyone

            The UK is signed up to the ILO conventions as are most other EU countries

            Any employee can take an employer to a tribunal with no fear of having any costs attached. A breach of contract is a two way process an employee can take an employer to court for breach . Oh and of course the big one….DONT BREACH YOUR CONTRACT . Simple really. Its like saying speeding fines are unfair when youre caught speeding.

            You also forget I own a business in France with French employees

            ​The reasons you can dismiss a worker for Breach of Contract in France

            Serious fault or gross negligence,
            Non-culpable facts but facts related to the worker, when these facts affect the operation of the business,
            Sickness: when prolonged absence or repeated absences interfere with the operation of the business,
            Refusal of a modification of the employment contract by the employee

            Oh dear Marty is wrong again

  12. Richard1
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:08 am | Permalink

    It has indeed been remarkable that the remain side declined to talk about the merits of the EU both during the referendum and ever since. The whole remain campaign was devoted to whipping up absurd scare stories about the consequence of leaving and insulting leave voters. The euro is the main policy of the EU. But even its erstwhile defenders such as Lord heseltine are silent on it now.

    Of course you could argue that EU centralisation is gradual, 2016-19 might not be the right time to leave (but if not, when?) and indeed the last three years have been painful. Whilst project fear has been shown to have been nonsense, there has undoubtedly been some damage from the limbo in lower growth and investment than there likely would have been.

    But let’s see what the passionate remainers can come up with today. And let’s hear from them in the coming election which will in effect be another referendum.

  13. eeyore
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Sir John makes an important point in this post. From the start Remain seized hold of the narrative and has never let go.

    In politics perception is everything, and the perception has been that it is for Leave to make their case and for Remain to judge it. This is a failure of strategy of the first order.

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

      This is because, when Leave won the referendum, we just sat back and trusted in the honour of our politicians to deliver that for which we’d voted – simply to leave the EU. We also trusted in the honour of remainers to accept that result and get behind their country.

      Our trust was misplaced on both counts. From day one we were behind in the game, because the remain camp was not (is not) honourable and immediately began to undermine the result in every way it could. That’s contemptible.

      We didn’t expect to have to fight for the actioning of a democratic vote. That’s never been our way – we expected our fellow countrymen to honour the result. I believe we Leavers would have done so, if we’d lost.

      • Jasper
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

        LJones – totally agree with everything you have said. I was thinking today if there was this much animosity in 1975 when we joined the CU? Sorry I am too young to remember😂 No one talks about this as I assume the referendum result was just accepted??

        • ELMES Joy
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

          There was no referendum on joining the E.U.
          They held one later when the little sweetie bags had been handed out, I voted No to E.U. then and am still waiting for our one chance to leave to be democratically implemented. No ‘deal’ was mentioned, just ‘leave’. The deal idea was thought up by the remainers.

  14. Mick
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Don’t forget to being able to travel the world by being in a conscripted arm forces , the snowflakes would soon be crying into there readybreak for there mummies

  15. Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    They are in complete denial John.

    They have tried to reform it for 30 years now and cannot even reform their own country never mind the EU. Schwarz Null it is cone heaven or high water.

  16. Martin in Cardiff
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    John, when couples reject divorce, so as not to tear apart their children’s home, not to cause great distress to one another and to their families and friends, and not to inflict financial hardship, then what kind of “together” are they choosing?

    How can they be sure that something even worse than all that will not happen one day?

    They cannot of course, but that would be the most idiotic reason for divorce, and yet it is apparently seriously being advanced as one for leaving the European Union by such as you.

    • pauline baxter
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

      Martin, you xxxx. Divorce? that word was Remain emotive balderdash propaganda all along. My life was blighted as a child by having parents who wanted different goals so I can out emotive you any day.
      Our armed forces were coopted into the EU under May’s premiership – if it was you wanted to travel worldwide with them.

    • J Bush
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

      If you are going down the route of this marriage analogy, it was Major who signed Maastricht, but refused the voters a say.

      So given he was dragging millions of people into this ‘marriage’, perhaps he should have given some thought to the possibility of ‘divorce’.

    • Edward2
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

      You are hilariously bad at analogies Martin.
      Just stop.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

      Well the EU certainly is not showing any signs of wanting to be friendly. What is so difficult about trading with a near neighbour? They want to trade with other countries outside of the EU and don’t expect them to pay for the privilege but not us. Well they can take a hike. I don’t want my money propping them up.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

      Martin in Cardiff

      You are becoming more ridiculous by the day. Do you really think that any of your stupid analogies have any baring what so ever on things?

      We are leaving, we are leaving because we want to make our own laws free from the imposition of EU directives, we are leaving because we want to negotiate trade deals that suit us and our industries, we are leaving because we want control of fishing and agriculture . We are leaving because we dont want to be in a protected market ( just like Trump) that makes the cost of basics very high and kills innovation. We are leaving because we are a creative, innovative , entrepreneurial country and the EU despises that, We are leaving so that big multinational corporations cant transfer price and avoid paying taxes here, we are leaving because a majority VOTED TO LEAVE

      If you want stupid analogies , we are getting a divorce because we no longer want to be in an abusive relationship , where our drunken partner takes everything from us and gives us some pocket money in return, where we are told what we can wear, where we can go and who we can go with .

      • Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:20 am | Permalink

        Well said indeed, Libertarian! Very well said.

      • pauline baxter
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

        Well done libertarian. Can I join your party?
        One final point to Martin in Cardiff, since he likes spouting his legal theories.
        We are leaving because we do not like Napoleonic Code Law. Under that you can be arrested by European Arrest Warrant. They need no primae facie evidence for the arrest. They put you in gaol for as long as it takes them to find(?) some evidence. You have no Right of Appeal to this proceedure because they do not have the Writ of Habeus Corpus. Excuse my spelling of Latin words. Maybe if my father had been able to oppose my abusive mother I would have learned Latin. Oh and all that law that you approve of has equivalent protection in our own law without need of the ECJ.

        • margaret
          Posted September 11, 2019 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

          Agree. For that reason the Teresa May’s proposed Security Treaty must never be signed re criminal law. ( this is separate and in addition to the abominable and mis named “Withdrawal Agreement” Treaty). And we don’t want diplomatically immune EU paramilitary police on our soil.

  17. villaking
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Sir John,
    Just before the referendum, David Cameron obtained a number of concessions from the EU, one of those being a specific opt out from “ever closer union” if we voted to remain. We have an opt out from the Euro within the treaty. The ECJ is necessary because we have a Single Market and that requires a sole arbiter, a bit like the ICJ to which I have never heard you object. You are promoting untrue ideas, we had a unique position within the EU, able to enjoy the benefits of the Single Market but able also to keep away from these things that terrify you so.
    Despite the new law, I believe we are nonetheless destined for a no-deal exit. That is something to be genuinely afraid of. I know you dismiss any idea of supply chain disruption as Project Fear and you may feel, for example, that the 3,000 pounds the company I run will have to pay to appoint an authorised EU representative to be able to continue selling in the EU a mere bagatelle. But consider some actual facts rather than speculation: Overnight, our EU customers (who are many) will face WTO import tariffs on our exports of 4% to 6.5% which they are sure to want us to compensate them for. Since our margins won’t allow this, they will certainly seek alternative suppliers within the EU. Our government’s proposed import tariffs are 0% on our products. This will be very helpful to our non-EU competitors who currently have import duties on their products. Competition is good you may say, but if and when 120 jobs disappear at our plant, I will write again here and request you publish an opinion on this for our ex-workforce to see

    • NickC
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

      Villaking, It is perfectly possible to have a zero tariff free market without a “sole arbiter” court. Most global trade deals don’t. In fact the EU is the only one of its type. So, no, the ECJ is not necessary for a free market.

      The “unique” position we had within the EU was one where the EU stole our fish, stole our democracy, stole our money, and boasted that it had finally made the UK a “colony” of the EU.

      The WTO does not set “import tariffs” for your products – it is your EU empire that imposes the tariffs. So have a word with your “friends” in the EU.

  18. Richard1
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    52% voted to leave and 48% remain. All the leave voters must clearly have wanted to be out of the EU in spite of the terrors they were advised of by the United forces of the govt, opposition, CBI, TUC, BoE etc. But what about the 48%? Very many were certainly not passionate remainers, but rather felt either that the UK would have to be out at some point but 2016 wasn’t the time, or perhaps were got to by project fear and decided that the likely 5 years or more of turmoil wasn’t worth it. How many of the 48% are the loud and righteous remainers who are so over-represented in parliament and on the airwaves?

  19. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    John Mann on radio 4 just now, he is resigning as an MP to take a Government job fighting anti-semitism. I wish him well in his new job. He finishes by asking what the current Labour Party is for?

    Well John the Labour Party is there to incubate the evil politics of envy, to try to bury us in the anti-democratic EU and to try to con people into voting for it by promising to nationalise almost everything, steal assets of anyone with assets, increase taxes (even further than the appalling Philip Hammond already has) and then to use the promise of this money to try to buy votes. Thus destroying all incentives to invest in the UK, pushing business overseas & raising far less tax not more. Leading us towards a Venezuelan economy making the both the rich and the poor far worse off. Let us hope they never obtain any power, especially in conjunction with the dire SNP. No sensible English person wants to suffer that surely? They also seem to be good at attracting Muslim votes (especially postal ones it seems) by being a bit anti-semitic.

    I am not Jewish myself but my interests in maths, science, physics and classical music means that rather a high proportion of my heroes are. Though they are usually the rather more atheist ones.

    Why is Mann staying in this basket case and very dangerous Labour Party I wonder?

  20. Marie Dunne
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Right now we participate fully in the single market, but have an opt out from the Euro and Schengen and a veto over any developments in tax and defence. It is a brilliant deal, and (since we also have a veto over Treaty change) it will endure as long as we want. This is a million times better than ANY version of Leave, which is just head in the sand isolationism. Our country cannot afford to walk away from the planet’s biggest and best trade deal, which also gives us huge clout in tackling climate change, migration, security etc

    • pauline baxter
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

      Opt out from Schengen and euro IS TEMPORARY. It will lapse and we have no say over that. The Euro will collapse soon unless the EU gets full integration of all tax and economic policies. The worlds biggest and best Trade deal? It’s you has your head in the sand. a) we pay far more for food now than we would outside EU. b) The EU wants to keep us in so we cannot trade freely outside, thus improving our balance of trade, thus having a strong economy. It IS NOT a trade deal. It is a restrictive protectionist block. And it is a UNION surely you understand that word. It intends to become a FEDERATED STATE.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

      Marie, climate change,migration, security? Yes, wrong on all fronts. We are not secure with their open borders or their crazy immigration policies and don’t get me started on climate change and the lovely Greta.

    • Alouette
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

      Well said Marie

    • Pud
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

      You do realise that participating fully in the single market means the UK is unable to negotiate its own trade deals? The price of anything that an EU country produces is higher than it need be due to EU wide tariffs to protect the EU producers, i.e. it’s dearer to buy from a non-EU country than it should be.

    • Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:29 am | Permalink

      There is not a status quo with the EU, Marie. They change their rules as and when they see fit, to their advantage. There are far more issues to be addressed than the ones you mention, and the ones you don’t mention are very sinister indeed – defence, for example. Why does a trading bloc need an army?

      The EU wants us to remain because it wants our money. And because the other member countries shouldn’t see an ex member being successful, lest it may encourager les autres.

      Thanks for trying to give your point of view though. Not many do.

  21. sm
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    I very much hope that responses to your request, John, will not be sneering and abusive; the tone of pitying condescension is not persuasive.

  22. Sea Warrior
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    What a delicious challenge! I feel that one of the strategic blunders by Vote Leave was closing itself down as soon as the referendum had been won. It should, of course, have kept itself in being, posing questions like this to those who voted Remain. Now I’ll sit back an wait for Newmania’s post,

    • C Beevers
      Posted September 13, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

      You are right, of course. We know now that we should never have trusted our own MPs to have supported democracy.

  23. agricola
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Remain voters are inheritantly dependants. They must like sitting back , not having to make decisions. At heart they must be maochists, quite happy to let a few jobsworths in Brussels map out their lives unquesioningly and without control. The only thing that excites them is the thought of having to make decisions, face up to facts or historical truthes. They are not self employment potential.

    I have not included some of the louder remain voices whose interests are in the EU pensions they receive tax free. These are many of your fellow MPs and civil servants and members of the lords. Then there are those receiving kickbacks such as the BBC. Add to this the big industrial concerns who on leaving lose their seat at the table of their particular industry. They can no longer control it’s direction. Finally there are the mindless footsoldiers of international socialism who troll this diary and anywhere else they can spread their lies and negativity.

    None can sell a vision of a great liberated USEU because they know it does not exist nor ever will under the present anti democratic bureaucratic regime. It is a dead concept incapable of reform. The very antithesis of what it set out to be, and therefore containing it’s own self destruct button.

    • Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:32 am | Permalink

      I think you’re being too kind, Agricola. I am sure that most remain ‘foot soldiers’ don’t think that deeply. They voted once. They lost. They don’t like the idea that they could have been wrong – fingers in ears, etc.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:00 am | Permalink

      . . . there are the mindless footsoldiers of international socialism who troll this diary . . .

      I fully agree. But they are allowed to continue to the detriment of this site.

      Sir John, it is not just me that can see this !

  24. Colin Iles
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Thank you Sir John for today’s entry to your valued diary.
    Since before the Referendum I have challenged others to give me one good reason for staying in the EU.
    I’m still waiting for any reply.

    • BJC
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

      Colin Iles

      The point is, Colin, the EU is nothing more than a hugely expensive, inefficient and unnecessary Middleman, and does nothing that individual countries couldn’t do for themselves or in co-operation with other chosen partners and at a fraction of the cost. The EU is one of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated, and yet we still have gullible “we know best” Remainer MPs telling us it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Incredible.

  25. Newmania
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    The main good things about the EU for me
    1 The UK`s Place in the world – NATO, or indeed any treaty requiring a country`s old , to sacrifice its young, is always contingent . The UK has delighted our enemies by that undermining not only Europe but the ties that bind NATO ( from which Trump is sliding anyway). We are a smaller weaker and sillier country today, a little rat of a place with only space for narrow survival.
    2 – The UK cannot negotiate with the US at a tenth of its size – what will we have there ..no deal again, storming off like children ?
    3 Free Trade – The Bank of England are going to astonishing lengths to assist Financial Services( by its temporary permissions scheme and low capital requirements) but it can only do so inwards. The UK is now the worst place, by far, in which to start up any services or high end in put company in Europe. Large one off companies can be tempted to stay but only by an interventionist government. This in the end, cannot work .
    The future is lowering non tariff barriers on high end services not selling fish and this drag on prosperity is a slow poison injected by Brexit

    To be continued ……
    Capitalism with civilisation
    Britain’s European dimension
    The conservative argument for better over dreams of utopia
    Standing up to Fascism in Europe, no surrendering to it

    • Pud
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

      Regarding your second point, we only gain an advantage in negotiations if what the UK wants and what the EU wants coincide. If the UK and thee rest of the EU have different goals then the UK is forced to follow a position it doesn’t want to.
      That was the only part of your post that made any sort of sense so I’ve limited my response to that.

    • dixie
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

      “We are a smaller weaker and sillier country today, a little rat of a place with only space for narrow survival.”

      If you think so poorly of your fellow citizens why are you even here, why don’t you simply take yourself off to your favourite EU paradise and wallow in your misery.

  26. Pete S
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    The attitude of the EU is worth looking at. A good example is May’s WA. I think a reasonable EU would wank us to separate amicably. But the WA shows their nasty vindictive nature. Read Lawyers for Britain, avoiding the trap by Martin Howe, available as a PDF. The WA is a capitulation treaty, I found it ought to be a criminal offence for any official to agree to it.
    etc ed

    • Pete S
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      Sorry for for the typo’s.

  27. Mike Wilson
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    If the Tories call a vote of no confidence in themselves … 280 Tory MPs vote for it and all the other parties + 20 Tory MPs vote against … we will truly have reached the point of total insanity. A government with no confidence in itself and an opposition that does have confidence in the government. The mind boggles. I think I need to go for a very long sleep and see if I wake up in a normal reality.

    • Know-Dice
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

      This truly is “Schrödinger’s cat” – I would prefer to open the box, get it over and done with.

      Enough of uncertainty for the population and business in particular…

      • A.Sedgwick
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

        Unfortunately within the box there are a succession of matryoshka boxes.

        • Posted September 10, 2019 at 3:35 am | Permalink

          But only one of them is real…..

  28. Kevin
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    There is another question that may be asked: In the 1975 referendum, who,
    of those involved in the campaigning, proposed that a “No” vote would
    mean anything other than “No”? Who among them said that a “No” vote
    meant you accepted all the legal consequences of joining the EC, but
    you could still say that the UK was not a member of the EC?

  29. Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    Correct – No remainers ever spoke of where the EU was/is taking us – Far better for their argument to lie about the problems Leaving might encounter than to discuss the dire realities of the EU.
    Those of us that have been watching the EU for a number of years will have known what the EU was growing into, but remainers have some kind of blind lemming faith that the EU is the way (!) – Either that or they have been deiberately leading us off a cliff – Despite them concentrating the argument on fake stories, Leave still won… But you have to wonder what is driving remainers… It certainly is not decency and regard for British people.

  30. Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Well done, about time someone asked the Remainers to define what remain actually means .

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      It means exactly what was said before, in the 1975 referendum, in the pamphlet sent to every single UK electoral address.

      It was crystal clear, that it would lead to what we have today.

      Under “aims of the European Community”, right at the top was “to bring together the peoples of Europe”, for instance. The others were similar, and progress continues towards achieving them.

      However, you would not accept the thumping sixty-eight to thirty-two result, and after an industrial campaign of misinformation from the US/aristocracy-owned UK press for decades, we are where we are.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

        In 1975 it was the Common Market and six similar nations.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:47 pm | Permalink


        Half of Europe was behind an iron curtain at the time !

        Our people thought they were joining a common market of similar nations. And by stealth they changed the name of the EEC to the EU with totally different connotations.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

        Martin, still no reasons to remain?

  31. Tabulazero
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Remain did definitely not vote for a remain that would inflict massive damage on the UK economy and political standing so that a few Conservatives politicians can continue safely with their lifelong political careers catering to the fantasies of the lunatic extremists that have taken over their party.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink


    • Edward2
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

      Good try at whataboutary diversion Tab.
      But not responding to anything Sir John asked.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

      But that is not outlining your vision of how we stay in @Tab

      We have no deal – what are you offering?

    • Shirley
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

      So you are able to foresee the future? A future where absolutely nothing is done to promote UK trade, its products, services, and it’s standing in the world? I suppose that could happen, if Remainers were in charge.

      I remind you we are the fifth biggest economy. There are hundreds of smaller economies that do not have our inbuilt advantages and they survive pretty well without EU membership.

    • BR
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

      That’s called an “assertion” Tab. And a wild one at that, bordering on the ridiculous considering etc ed

      You were asked to state facts in support of your case – as ever, remainers can only produce a vague assertion that is patently untrue.

      Please describe exactly how this massive damage would occur (no, queues at Dover doesn’t begin to cover it – apart from the fact that the heads of both ports have said that won’t happen, it doesn’t start to be massive damage).

    • APL
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

      Tabulazero: “so that a few Conservatives politicians can continue safely with their lifelong political careers”

      That’s a joke. The very first item on the agenda** when the result was announced, was who was going to pay for the pension of the European Union bureaucrats.

      It’s my opinion, they worked for the European Union, therefor its the European Unions responsibility to pay Neil Kinnock, Peter Mandelson et al, their contractual obligations.

      **I’d put in a link to one of the numerous news stories at the time, but moderation.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

      That’s what you didn’t vote for. What DID you vote for ? Did you for example vote to give the EU the power to send UK troops to war ? Why ?

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

      But tell us why we should wish to remain.
      Just three concise reasons would do for a start.

      • tim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

        Just ONE reason would be a start.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink


      Explain what damage to the economy and why

  32. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    Quite, this saga has not only changed the political divide but indicates there are more in this country unwilling to face the blindingly obvious with the disintegration of Parliament taking away our reputation of fair government. The only logical platform for Remain is a federal Europe and that was not on the ballot paper either.

  33. Gary C
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    Seem’s to me the remainers fear is their own fear, they are scared of their own shadow’s.

    It’s unbelievable they are willing to handcuff us to a parasitic foreign ponzi scheme rather than spend their efforts building a strong and prosperous UK.

    It will be interesting to read exactly why they want us to stay.

  34. BJC
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    When the question of a referendum was first raised I knew absolutely nothing about the EU or its purpose, yet I was going to be asked a question of great magnitude about the future of my country, and my vote would truly count this time.

    As the campaign got under way, I felt a personal obligation to weigh up both sides of the argument and quite frankly, I was listening to such outrageous and conflicting claims by MPs the only way I could clear the fog was to do my own research.

    The only place I could find any information that stood up to scrutiny was in the EU treaties, specifically because they are legally binding. I was horrified, not only at the extent of the powers our representatives had already transferred to the EU without our consent, but also the future intentions mapped out in the treaties. I could do nothing about the past, but I had now been given the power to do something about the future. I voted the only way I could, Brexit.

    It’s blatantly obvious that our MPs didn’t and still don’t, feel any obligation to research their topic. They agreed a referendum in ignorance, they voted for Art50 in ignorance and every Brexit decision since has been done in ignorance. Their towering conceit, abuse of power and utter contempt for those they allege to represent has blinded them to their own abject and consistent failures.

    If our baying MPs bothered take a step back they would see that neither side can claim to have right on their side. Neither Brexit nor the EU middleman is the objective, it’s simply the vehicle we have at our disposal to reach our destination (prosperity) and both have the potential to allow us to achieve it. However, no matter what time and money we’ve put into caring for the old jalopy it can no longer be adapted to suit our needs, so we’ve decided it’s reached the end of its useful life. We want to trade it in for something new and powerful, but our Remainer MPs are looking in the second-hand showroom for an upgrade of the old model.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:27 am | Permalink

      It’s blatantly obvious that our MPs didn’t and still don’t, feel any obligation to research their topic.

      They’re just voting fodder and see us as less better than that. And all the rest I strongly agree to and, thank you for taking the time to read some of what I read about the EU. Knowledge is power, something our MP’s need to learn.

  35. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    How to make your country even more of an international laughing stock:


    “One plan under serious consideration would see the Prime Minister send an accompanying letter alongside the request to extend Article 50 setting out that the Government does not want any delay after Oct 31.”.

    For God’s sake, man, do the only honourable thing and resign as Prime Minister.

    • Know-Dice
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

      You don’t like him do you 🙁

      Who would replace him?

      • Mark B
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

        The good news is, unlike his predecessor, Denis didn’t actually vote for him.


    • 'None of the above'.
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

      Yes, you would like that wouldn’t you.
      This is precisely why I believe he should stay with it.

      I think it might worth exploring a Judicial review of Standing Order 24.
      It seems to me that Mr Speaker has given it the widest possible interpretation and this has opened the way to an Act which hands control of our Brexit to the EU.
      Couple to this to Parliaments decision to deny the Electorate of their Democratic right to express a view on a Constitutional change and one could conclude that ‘The Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011’ has been used to abuse those rights.
      Perhaps the Supreme Court might find a way through.
      And before you get excited, they will be commenting on the law not political policy.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

        Just like they did for Gina Miller. Well done. You got there.

    • dennisambler
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

      And what would be the outcome?

  36. Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    The trouble with the remain lobby is they have never really explained to me why the EU is worth the effort. In my market sector they have imposed anti dumping taxes on Chinese product and produced the first ever glossy video explaining how they are protecting 80,000 jobs. None of those jobs are in the UK, the specific type of product is not built in the EU and UK consumers are now paying an extra £150 for that product. I have no idea and they do not explain how the job numbers are calculated.

    • Andy
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

      You make a very valid criticism.

      The people who led the Remain campaign – made an appalling case for the EU. In fact they didn’t really make a case for it at all – and when they did it was often done poorly.

      I have long believed that Remain would have won by a significant margin if it had run a positive campaign.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

        Yes, Andy, but a fair few of the Remain “campaigners” were Tories, who had previously fought General Elections on European Union-bashing – like Cameron himself – to get the votes of the curtain-twitchers and the privet-clippers.

        They just couldn’t bring themselves.

        The campaign should have started back in 1975 – it was always bound to happen.

        • Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:32 am | Permalink

          MinC – so give us REASONS why we should wish to remain. Stop trying to butter up poor Andy. Tell us WHY we should wish to remain in your EU.
          Simple question. Simple answer?

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

        But which version did you vote for ? That was the question.

      • tim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

        “Andy”, who ever you are? you could be Junker for all we know, you are definately anti UK, Quisling!

      • Richard1
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

        They should have tried ‘if it ain’t broke don’t mend it’.

      • Jiminyjim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

        A positive campaign, Andy? You’ve been challenged endlessly to give us positive reasons. So far, zilch, nada.

      • Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:30 am | Permalink

        Andy – okay, so you believe in your EU. That much is obvious.

        Now give us REASONS we should wish to remain.

      • dixie
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 4:22 am | Permalink

        The Ashcroft poll on referendum day sampled more than 12,000 people and showed at least 58% of those who voted leave had finally decided to do so well before the campaigns even started. These positions were not based on last minute marketing but life experiences.

        Putting lipstick on a pig does not change the pig, dressing up the EU with flashy marketing does not mask it’s true nature and how truly dissatisfied people were with the EU and it’s extension in to our establishment.

        The EU has not been a positive experience for many of us, quite the opposite.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:31 am | Permalink

      The job numbers are calculated the same way the 3 million jobs, remember that, was calculated. Out of thin air !

  37. Julie Williams
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    I’m personally a massive fan of Target 2 whereby the Germans have allowed Italy to rack up debts for 599 billion Euro for German goods and services but the actual debt is held against the ECB so if Italy defaulted, the problem gets shared by all Eurozone members so Germany only coughs up 27%.
    100% of the benefits to Germany, 27% of the risk.
    Luxemburg is quite keen non Target 2 as well.
    Even better, Target2 has been accused of helping “capital flight” out of big debt countries like Greece so they avoid the pain when the economy collapses.
    Of course, the assumption is that the Euro will never collapse, so it’s all theoretical.

    • acorn
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

      ECB Target 2 balances are no big worry. When the EU completes the Banking Union, the ECB will be using a similar balancing system as the US Federal Reserve uses.

      The Fed has to balance 12 banks against the ECB’s 19. The FED does it by shifting its securities collateral between the 12 banks at regular intervals. the ECB does not do this presently. But, when the securities issued by the 19 Euro central banks are netted off the T2 balance the picture is a lot different.

      Target 2 is a payment system internal to the ECB. The ECB is the Euro currency issuer and will never run out of Euro to stabilise the banking system. Just like the BoE was never going to run out of Sterling to rescue UK banks in 2008.

      A short answer to JR’s question. Remainers know things that Leavers don’t QED.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

        When the EU completes the Banking Union . . .

        And pray tell when will that be ? Or don’t you know ? 😉

        • acorn
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

          A pathetic “leaver” comment. As if you have got a clue what I am talking about.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 11, 2019 at 4:56 pm | Permalink



            The important difference between Target 2 and ISA, is that in the US all Reserve Banks are owned by the federal government. This means that in the US it is possible to safeguard the integrity of the system by changing the settlement rules. As all Federal Reserve banks are owned by the federal government, a loss in Richmond is irrelevant when there is an equal gain in New York. In the Eurozone, however, the ECB is owned by the national governments via the national central banks, not by the European Union as a whole.

            Remainers ( who cant tell the difference between South Koreans & French) might think they know things but it pays to check

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

      I once worked for a firm like that. They would give smaller target companies almost unlimited credit and when they were so enmeshed in trouble they would simply take them over. Much easier than starting new companies and of course intellectual property, plant and equipment and customers all obtained at minimal cost. The owners of that company were German and Hungarian, long before we joined to EU, so the Germans would seem to have form in this area. Perhaps that is their way of doing business.

  38. Oliver
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    I hope you don’t object, but I’ve slightly reframed your questions:

    1. Do they want to spend my taxes on homeless people in Bulgaria before dealing with them here?

    2. Do they want Jean Claude Juncker, or someone of equal judgment, accountability, credibility and charisma to send their children to die defending Latvia?

    3. If the UK is against something, anything, but it is imposed on us by QMV which can weights other countries votes per head at double the value our own, or b the ECJ, is that acceptable? Why?

    4. What industries outside manufacturing benefit from the CU, Single market? Will the EU prove better placed, more flexible, innovative, to deal with the obvious and imminent dramatic challenges of the inevitable widespread roll out of AI, with all its implications for competitiveness?

  39. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    What kind of Remain did Remain voters vote for?

    They do not have much of a clue I suspect. Some absurd dreamworld of let us all be friends together I suspect. Joint bank accounts with “friends” while letting them over rule you is rarely a good plan or a good way to remain “friends”.

    Maybe they just like to be bossed about by and taxed EU bureaucrats that they can never remove and for their votes (for MPs and MEP) to be almost totally worthless – this as they can change little of substance once elected anyway.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

      LL – – they are people who don’t want to take responsibility, not think for themselves. Perfectly suitable for judges( who act on precedents) and those who want to be told what to do next. Many civil servants fall into that category ie pass every issue upwards to avoid making a decision.

    • APL
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic: “They do not have much of a clue I suspect. Some absurd dreamworld of let us all be friends together I suspect. ”

      A very significant number of people, don’t know anything other than the European Union (EEC).

      A lot of my co-workers are in their thirties, the EU is older than they are, it’s just the way it has always been. Consequently, they haven’t thought about the advantages of the EU, or the disadvantages ( the British Politicians covered those up for 43 years, vide Redwood: ‘The EU doesn’t play on the doorstep’ ). Otherwise known as ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell.

      And it served British Politicians well, to let the EU do all the ‘hard’ work of administering the country, then just rubber stamp the torrent of EU legislation, and pick up a cool £75K + expenses + gold plated pension, for talking a lot.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:39 am | Permalink

        Cha-Ching !


  40. tim
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Sir John,
    could you please give us some rough/basic figures, of how much being in the EU is really costing the UK tax payer. for e.g £18,200,000,000 each year {that was from 2016}. And this is really the tip of the iceberg!

  41. rose
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    “which is an activist court with a political mission.”

    Did you hear Lord Sumption putting the boot in this morning? Despite his protestations in his Reith lectures that he is worried about the courts getting into politics. He also pronounced that the PM is not allowed to write a letter to the EU telling them what he thinks. This is beyond tyranny.

    I think we can all guess who is the unelected official the Court would order to usurp the PM’s position.

    • 'None of the above'.
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

      I think you should read his comments properly.

      He was commenting on what the Act required, nothing more and nothing less.

      P.S. I’ve finished my lunch and I still have not yet heard a proper response to Sir John’s questions.

      I wonder why?

      • rose
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

        I listened carefully and I heard the tone.

  42. Everhopeful
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    So glad I am a Brexit supporter.
    Those questions would be very hard to answer!

    • C Beevers
      Posted September 13, 2019 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

      Impossible, in fact……which is why there have been no answers!

  43. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    And this is the nub of the whole matter.

    Once we decided to have a referendum a vote to stay in made us even more subservient.

    If there is another referendum and remain gets on the ballot it must be “remain with all current opt outs, no ever closer union, full rebate reinstated (as CAP has not been reformed), and a brake on free movement for at least five years.

    Remain should not be on the ballot as it lost but if it does appear then this version is the only one that is acceptable in the slightest.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

      Indeed. A Remain result would have been seen as a mandate for Hard Remain.

      A Leave result has turned out to be Harder Remain as Yannis Varoufakis predicted in an article he wrote for The Big Issue.

  44. Everhopeful
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    I saw a vid of a member of the Lords making an impassioned speech regarding his fears about the EU taking over our forces.
    His name was not given and no clue to the age of the film.
    He said that our men would be forced to swear allegiance to the EU and that all our MI5 type things would be subsumed.
    Other Lords were laughing at him.
    Since JR is talking about the creeping nature of EU take overs…which really have happened…I just wondered……?

    • Sharon Jagger
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

      In the Political Declaration it signs over control of our armed forces to the EU.

      A year or two ago I read on Veterans for Britain’s website that there is a secondary treaty that has been compiled that signs away control of our forces….which presumably was then inserted into the PD. Either way it appears that no-one is taking much notice in Parliament

      At the end of last week, Brexit Central, conservative woman and Briefings for Brexit all had the transcript of a speech made at the banqueting hall by a lieutenant colonel who is one of many, really concerned that our arms forces might accidentally be lost to EU control.

    • Carolyn
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

      It was Lord James of Blackheath who made that speech, only the other day (8/9/19). And yes, very worrying..and seemingly true if you follow posts by Veterans for Britain..

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

      an old rerun of Monty Python?

  45. Turboterrier
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Sir John.
    I hope you have sent this to every member of parliament who is a stated remainder including those who have left the party and cabinet.
    Have we your permission to cut and paste and send to my local editors and member of Parliament

    Reply Yes people are welcome to use this in any legal way

  46. Roy Grainger
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Another question for Labour Remainers is whether their policies on (for example) the steel industry and their next election manifesto will be changed to be compliant with EU anti-state-aid rules ? Currently they aren’t.

  47. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    A helpful guide to electric cars in the Sunday Times yesterday.

    So should I change by ancient petrol Golf Cabriolet worth perhaps £800 at best for a new elctric car costing £30,000+. With a battery (tank) that can only be refilled at about 1 litre per hour, a range of 120 miles (if I do not use the heater), very long recharge times, needs plugging in all the time, with a battery that devalues at about £200 per month (this on top of the devaluation of the car at perhaps another £400 PM). Then plus the loss of the investment income (or interest costs) on the £30,000 capital and a huge increase in insurance costs too.

    Total cost of old one for 5 years including fuel perhaps £10,000 (about £6,000 of which is tax on fuel). Plus a far more useful and flexible vehicle.
    Total cost of new electric one including fuel perhaps more like £50,000 (even after the government bribe) and with range and other inconvenience limitations too. Plus I cannot choose to have one with a soft top roof.

    If you take out the government bribes and the irrational tax advantages on electic fuel (which will have to go at some point) then the electic one costs about 12+ times as much. Taking into account the manufacturing and electricity production CO2 output the electic one will also produce far more C02 (certainly at least double). So why exactly is the government pushing electric cars (given current technology) with these tax payer bribes?

  48. Ian Wragg
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    The majority in Parliament are happy to belong to a Federal Europe as it cements their place on the gravy train. It will ultimately end badly as do all empires when the people realise they are being conned.
    As the rest of the world moves on the EU will become an irrelevance.

  49. bill brown
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    Sir JR,

    A decision has been made by the people and should be respected.
    It would therefore be more relevant to ask, what does a good deal look like for somebody who voted Remain and would keep the Union together?

    • libertarian
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink


      Remainers were so busy throwing their toys out of the pram at losing that they missed their big chance

      If right up front they had accepted the vote and gone to an EFTA/EEA solution they would probably have got it. Not now though .

      This is the problem Hans they dont really want a deal of any kind, they want to stay

      They cant come up with an alternative deal as they have no idea why they want to be in the EU. Its just woke virtue signalling

      However I’d be interested in you answering your own question because I’ve asked every hardened remainer on here and not one of them has responded in any way

      • bill brown
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:07 pm | Permalink


        I am happy to answer that question face to face as I have a few personal question to ask you ?

        • libertarian
          Posted September 11, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

          billy hans

          Are you threatening me? Lol

          If you are happy to answer the question get on with it and answer the question , I’m waiting….

          • libertarian
            Posted September 12, 2019 at 9:50 am | Permalink


            tumbleweed , as always lots of hot air, threats and abuse but NEVER an answer

  50. Lifelogic
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    BBC favourite Roland Rudd (a paid pro EU advocate) was on the Today Programme again today.

    “Amber Rudd (his sister) is a brave and principled woman he says.” Sure very principled of her to sign up to the Boris govenrment agenda one day and kick him in the teeth the next! Or to stand on a pro brexit manifesto then try to kill it with the putrid brexit in name only W/A.

    She is totally misguided in trying to bury the conservative party, kill UK democracy and perhaps give us a one way Corbyn trip to Venezuela. Thank goodness she has left the party she must never be allowed back.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:41 am | Permalink

      Amber Rudd claims that she signed up to the Boris Government plan “in good faith”. Oh sure dear we all believe that one just go & be honest for a change – joint the B******* to Brexit anti-Liberal anti-Democrats.

      After all it is full of people just like you, that is why they have so few MPs.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

        L/L Agree totally. I don’t Jo Swinson, Rory Stewart and Rudd join the SNP? Two of them are Scottish anyway, Scotland didn’t vote to come out and if they are successful with their independence referendum Scotland will be out of the union and free to do what they want. It would also make many English very happy.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

      Amber Rudd even kept her resignation secret from Boris Johnson it seems. Very honourable and in good faith! I assume she will refuse to take the salary and any pay off for her disgraceful and brief period in the Boris Government?

    • Know-Dice
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      The somewhere between Red & Yellow person said that “not enough effort was being made to negotiate a Deal” – Which is strange because as Mrs May in her extension to 31st October request agreed not to try and re-negotiate the Withdrawal Agreement & everyone and their dog knows that the very child like EU will not negotiate a trade deal until you are a “Third Country” which is very strange.

      Article 50 states that as part of the leaving process the future relationship should also be included, so I find it very strange that the Political Declaration is not legally binding – As usual the EU say one thing and do the opposite…

  51. Turboterrier
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Sir John, I hope it is not just me in that when I look at those expelled from the party nearly all of them were in positions which they had been removed from. Is it just a case of revenge when Rory Stewart is quoted in the DE on line he is leading the rebels in having even closer ties with the Libdems to thwart the PM plans. After all they do have a Scottish leader so it might be a good idea for people like this who are so besotted with the EU resign completely and stand for a place in Scotland where we are it always being stuffed down our throats that they want to and voted to remain. It would seem they would be well suited to return north of the border and fight against the dictatorship driven by Sturgeon and the SNP.
    Regarding the other 20 outcasts why would anyone in their right mind invite such two faced fifth columnists back into the party to again destroy it again from within?

  52. Sharon Jagger
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    As there are , as yet, no responses I’d like to add something.

    Currently, the EU is trying to get non-EU countries to conform to their trading rules. They are calling it ‘a level playing field’ and any country refusing to comply are being refused access. There are two lists, a black list, of countries who are refusing to comply, and a list of 20plus countries who are, ‘getting themselves in line’. These countries include Australia, Canada, Brazil and some quite mainstream countries.

    Are remainers happy that the EU is slowly trying to extend their empire to include the whole world? Is this healthy for one entity to have such control?

    As an invisible hand behind governments in all EU countries do remainers realise the extent of the control of the EU? And evidence shows the elite in Brussels to be very wealthy, and a number of countries are getting poorer with massive unemployment. Are remainers happy with this?

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

      1984 – its coming

  53. BOF
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Thank you Sir John, this is a much needed discussion and I look forward to reading all the positive EU arguments from Andy, Martin from Cardiff etc.

    Throughout the Referendum campaign I was never able to find a single person able to defend any aspect of the EU. Their only argument was ‘Project Fear’. Catastrophists all.

    • Ian!
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:34 am | Permalink

      You could have a deep and meaningful conversation with a brick wall – it will be more responsive

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

      It seems perfectly natural to want to remain as part of the most advanced, enlightened, civilised project between nations, that this war-torn and blood-soaked planet has ever seen to me.

      What ever kind of moral degenerate would vote against that?

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

        Yet the majority of nations are not in the EU and many others are desperately right now, fighting to be independent nations.
        Freedom and democracy based on self determination of people in a single nation state seems to be very popular.
        And the very opposite of your vision of the United States of Europe

      • Fred H
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:12 pm | Permalink


      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

        So it was about stopping war now, was it ?

        We were told it was a common market.

      • tim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

        Martin! just one reason will do! Do you write fairy stories?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

        Martin, well I don’t see them being nice to each other or us. Many of them are a lot poorer now.

      • pauline baxter
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

        Martin why do you live in Cardiff then. Go and live in your dream State. Of course Wales was not part of Britain in the early years of building THIS advanced elightened etcetera Nation. perhaps that is your problem. Answer John Redwoods questions.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

        Martin in Cardiff

        Well the kind of person that doesn’t believe that its advanced ( it isn’t, the EU has virtually no presence in any advanced new technology area and actively resists new innovations, its financial services and fin tech are in the dark ages, it has no mobile phone industry and banned advanced vacuum cleaners ) , enlightened? How many EU countries STILL forbid gay marriage and gay rights? 10 EU members have no minimum wage or a NMW below £2 per hour , remind me about their behaviour towards Catalonia civilised? Is it civilised to protect cow stabbing and pony wrestling as sports? is it civilised to allow force feeding of geese and ducks until their livers explode ? Is it civilised to allow the transport of live animals for slaughter , you’ve not been to France then and watched the weekly rioting 11 dead so far

        As Ive said all along and you’ve just confirmed Remainers have no reason to be in the EU they are just woke virtue signallers

      • Jiminyjim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

        Cut and paste previous of your comments, MiC? How pathetic

      • APL
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

        Martin in Cardiff: “It seems perfectly natural to want to remain as part of the most advanced, enlightened, civilised project between nations ..”

        You are the second Remainer who has confused the United States of America, with its constitution protecting the rights of its citizens, with the European Union, which when it attempted to introduced a ‘Constitution’ didn’t have the courage to stick to its guns and ended up calling it something else, the Lisbon treaty or some such.

      • Gareth Warren
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

        The recent Balkan and Ukrainian wars both started after EU interference.

      • C Beevers
        Posted September 13, 2019 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

        And that would be where, exactly? Cos it certainly doesn’t resemble the EU!

  54. Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    That is something I’ve been asking Remainers for a while now.
    Unfortunately I’ve had so few responses, I’ve come to the conclusion that they did not know what they voted for.

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

      They don’t seem to have read the official literature nor listened to Cameron et al on television during the campaign. I am just amazed at how ignorant some of them seem to be.

  55. Christine
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    I’ve been labouring all these points you make for years. There is a deafening silence from our media and politicians about the future of the EU and what it means for this country. Sensible voices like yours have been drowned out by keeping the debate on the economy and not the perils of remaining.

    One of the most frightening aspects of the EU is that once MEPs vote for a law they have no power to amend it, repeal it, or put forward alternative proposals. Everything is in the gift of the unelected Commission and Presidents. If the public really understood the system, they would run a mile from being a member.

    The EU is slowly closing down the media under the guise of hate speech. Its latest power grab to remove the veto on taxation and foreign policy using the ‘passerelle clauses’ in the Lisbon Treaty is truly frightening. Junker calls this “the treaty’s lost treasure”. This information is laid out in documents on the EU website. It is not fabricated, as the remainers would have people believe.

    I appeal to those who advocate remain to open their eyes and see what the death of democracy will inflict on future generations.

    A way must be found to get this message out to the general public.

    We must have a clean break from the EU. Making ourselves a vassal state by signing the Withdrawal Agreement is the last thing we need.

    We must be independent and strong and a beacon to lead others out of the undemocratic EU.

  56. Sydney Ashurst
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    MP’s and the Media are blind to reality, perhaps their reading ability is limited.
    Parliament in the Bill, by requesting a further extension is colluding with the EU Council in banning the reopening of the Withdrawal Agreement (continued negotiation), the stated aim of the Bill.
    It is kicking the can down the road and preventing the Government from implementing the will of the people.
    The evidence is here: On 10 April 2019, the European Council agreed to a further extension to allow for the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement by both Parties. Consequently, the withdrawal should take place on the first day of the month following the completion of the ratification procedures or on 1 November 2019, whichever is the earliest.
    The European Council takes note of the commitment by the United Kingdom to act in a constructive and responsible manner throughout the extension period in accordance with the duty of sincere cooperation, and expects the United Kingdom to fulfil this commitment and Treaty obligation in a manner that reflects its situation as a withdrawing Member.
    (The killer) This extension excludes any re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act by the United Kingdom should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement, and must not hamper its implementation. Such an extension cannot be used to start negotiations on the future relationship.
    It was repeated the purpose of the extension is to allow for the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement by both Parties.

  57. William1995
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    All excellent questions. Amazing we are still having this debate >3 years after the referendum

  58. Les
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Watch the waffle come out…

  59. Fred H
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    They haven’t got a clue. Having been subjected to the mass media brainwashing for years, plus the devious judiciary and MPs, most are frightened rabbits thinking they are going to be pushed over the white cliffs into the sea. Spineless chickens who lost the British spirit years ago.

  60. Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:53 am | Permalink


    Remainers like the way the EU operates – This is plain to see.

    The EU WAS built on lies, is run on secrecy and deceit where honesty would normally work best, and is known as being economically incontinent. They do not care how much of our money they waste.

    Remainers have taken to heart the ways of the EU. They emulate EU methods to keep us trapped in the empire they so admire.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:52 am | Permalink

      They don’t know how it operates, rarely know who their MEPs are and NEVER which EU party they belong to.

      • Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

        True – but in their imagination they think they know… but I was referring more to the hardline remainers, those affecting our efforts to leave

  61. Stephen Priest
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    UK economy grew 0.3pc in July, reducing fears of third-quarter contraction

    Faster growth than Germany.

    Despite Brexit,

    Despite Boris.

    Black arms band at Remoaner HQ

  62. David Taylor
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    There is a large group in the UK that believe in the EU and its drive to ever closer union .
    The country is almost equally split , for & against continued membership of the EU .
    I am not in favour of continued membership of the EU , as the UK cannot opt out of the Political aspect of the EU , British membership was advocated on a misleading prospectus , a trade bloc only .
    The narrative that the UK can only survive & prosper as a member of the EU is outdated and no longer applies .
    The EU like previous over regulated , bureaucratic entities , whether political or Business , will ultimately stifle itself , the signs are there now and are pointed out by much more educated & well informed people than I .
    Also to digress , can it be right that the Houses of Parliament can bring forward & enact a Law to penalise one person , The Prime Minister , in record time , whilst knife crime increases ?

    • tim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

      This a very real threat to all free people. Make up a law and put your PM in Prison.

  63. David Maxwell
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I believe the column of answers from Remainers will resemble one of the old West “Ghost Towns” with tumbleweed blowing through it for some while….

  64. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Pooled sovereignty and laws designed for 28 (plus) countries.

    No thank you.

    • Ian!
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:32 am | Permalink

      Agreed. In a democracy the People through direct representation get to create laws that effect them, scrutinize laws that effect them, amend laws that that effect them and of course repeal laws that effect them.

      Take that away and it is no longer a democracy

      in EU member countries, EU law takes ‘supremacy’ over domestic law.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:45 am | Permalink

      In treaty-limited areas of law only.

      Laws must be consistent, so they can all have a bearing on each other.

      However, at a primary level, this so-called seventy-five percent of UK law that is supposedly made in Brussels does not include family and divorce, nor Town and Country Planning. Nor does it cover crime and sentencing. Heath, education and professional standards are outside its remit, as are land, property and inheritance, along with most tax bar VAT. Defence and security are not covered, and nor are electoral matters nor media regulation. Driving and parking rules and penalties appear to be for us too, along with employment and trade union matters, except for health and safety. It seems to be getting rather hard to find.

      You have fallen for this silly distortion hook, line, and sinker, along with so much more though, it seems.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

        One minute you tell us we are so inextricably linked and deeply involved in the EU that leaving is nigh on impossible and we cannot survive outside as a free independent nation, now you are telling us here that the EU has no control over the UK and we are independent already.
        Which is it?

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

          Both, the UK is an independent legal entity in most areas of law, but very intimately connected with the European Union as a commercial, cultural, social, educational, scientific, environmental etc. one.

          Is that so hard to grasp?

          • Edward2
            Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

            This is the time to make your mind up.
            You can’t be just little bit pregnant.
            Either we are ruled by the EU.
            Or we rule ourselves.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

        The ECJ and ECHR are supreme.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

          ECHR is not a European Union institution. It has forty-six member countries.

          The British wrote much, probably most of its charter just after WWII.

          The ECJ only has jurisdiction in the limited areas of law covered by the Lisbon Treaty.

          You can’t even get the basics right.

          • Andy
            Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

            Conservative objections to the ECHR are particularly baffling.

            The European Convention on Human Rights is based on British principles.

            Established from the ashes of WW2 it was written largely by British lawyers – and is based on British values.

            These were the values of Churchill at the time of Churchill.

            The court which interprets the law is NOT part of the EU. Brexit does not mean we leave it.

            What on Earth has happened to the Tory party that it wishes to trash the legacy of its greatest ever member?

            (Having already trashed the single market – the legacy of its second greatest member ever).

          • Edward2
            Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

            Well that is only partly true Martin
            The ECJ and ECHR are supreme over the areas of law they concentrate on.
            So anonymous is right.

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:35 am | Permalink

          Thanks Edward. OTT reactions to my simple statement of fact.

      • graham1946
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

        Still no positives then.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

          So, unless you can prove conclusively, that you definitely would not meet someone better, you should divorce your wife, then?

          • Edward2
            Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

            You don’t divorce to meet someone better.
            You divorce to move away from a relationship you find is negative.

          • dixie
            Posted September 10, 2019 at 4:52 am | Permalink

            It is not about meeting someone better it is about leaving an abusive partner.

      • Beecee
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

        If we do all this for ourselves – why are we paying £10Bn+ a year to outsiders to do the little bit that is left?

        You are the one on the hook methinks.

        • tim
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

          Beecee- I calculate as of 2016 350 mill x 52 weeks = £18,200,000,000 plus all the tax on everything we sell going to brussel sprouts. I wish this figure was wrong!

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

        In practice that is in “elastically-limited” rather than “treaty-limited” areas of law, with the EU institutions, especially the ECJ, deciding how far the limits can be stretched and even whether or not they should be broken.

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

        Mission creep Martin.

        I have fallen for nothing but I recognise the direction of travel because I bother to look.

        You just accept.

      • Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

        So, MinC, you’ve blathered on as usual about nothing in particular, ending with the usual disparaging tosh.

        Can you now tell us some of the main advantages to remaining in your EU? Be positive – tell us about all the good stuff. Paint a word picture of the great and glorious EU future that could have been ours, if only we’d been sensible enough to vote ‘remain’.

        You obviously consider yourself to be good with words – now use them to paint us that picture.

      • BJC
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

        So you’ve not read the legally binding EU treaties, then?

      • libertarian
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:10 pm | Permalink


        The EU does interfere in media… big time, Article 11 and Article 14 as well as GDPR

        Oh and professional qualifications in the EU is governed by Directive 2005/36/EC, recently amended by Directive 2013/55/EC.

        Wetting myself laughing at you now Marty you said ” employment and trade union matters, except for health and safety” are outside of EU remit. On this very thread you went off on a rant because you claim we are doing away with all the EU employment laws , there are literally dozens of them Oh and the EU controls taxes on energy products and electricity, tobacco and alcohol.

        You left out the ECJ the European Arrest Warrant and about 12,000 other directives

        You haven’t got a clue what you voted for have you Martin

        • bill brown
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:11 pm | Permalink


          There might be some major misses in Martin’s answers but you have to learn a bit more self-control

  65. Grist
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Well, having read through the deep and thoughtful insights offered by all the Remainers, I have to say I’m more convinced than ever that I made the right decision. Because right now, at 10.25, there are none at all.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:38 am | Permalink

      John is an MP. Are you aware of what is happening in Parliament just now?

      Didn’t think so.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

        There is nothing happening in The House of Commons until 14:30 today, so not sure what you are suggesting @ 11:38?

      • Robert Mcdonald
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

        Yes, they are talking and baulking and avoiding asking the people to have a say by holding a general election … well all of them bar the government who are farcically being accused of attempting a coup …. by demanding an election !!! Come on, grow up.

      • graham1946
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

        Does that have some meaning?

      • Jiminyjim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

        What is happening in parliament at 11:38 am, MiC? With every single post of yours, you shout your complete ignorance from the rooftops!

        • bill brown
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:12 pm | Permalink


          You might have a point there but yours are not much better

  66. Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    There is no point in remaining and trying to reform the EU from within. Cameron proved that when he came back with nothing before the referendum.

    Any attempt at reform will simply be ignored, circumvented or cancelled by qualified majority voting.

    The only sensible option is to get out now…

  67. Dan Earley
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    I can forsee that the most common answers you will get will centre around an argument being based on ‘it’s better to be around the table discussing than outside looking in’. It will pay no attention to the democratic validity of being in, of the lost sovereignty, the decisions being made behind without due diligence or democratic oversight. It will all be about collective power, being part of a big negotiating block. the arguments will say that we can reform from within to prevent much of what you say despite the wholesale evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you should sponsor a TV debate on this, set the format, decide on panellists, an adjudicator (someone who will be unbiased), vett the audience or invite an equal number of leavers and remainers. Maybe have it in a university where debate is still encouraged.

  68. Earley Riser
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    I would take any of the above over the appalling destruction you have unleashed.

    It is a Union, we do get a voice and a vote. We will have neither after your No-Deal exit. Then we will find out there is no such thing as “No-Deal”, just a worse deal negotiated from a much weaker position.

    If the EU was trying to do to us that which we are doing to ourselves you would be apopleptic and the papers would be calling for war.

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      The Treaty of Lisbon was troubled with opposition e.g. Eire and one of its effects was the phasing out of the veto for any country. As a result any member will be at risk from a decision by the others. Odds of 1-27 I don’t favour unlike Ken Clarke in one of his more disingenuous moments described this TREATY as a “a tidying up exercise”.

    • Robert Mcdonald
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

      We have a voice and a vote, none of which will ever result in changes that benefit us as we are one of 28 .. and at least 19 of those 28 are beholding on the eurocrats for funding to feed their economy. 72 attempts to make the eu better and 72 rejections for our proposals.

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

      Another one with nothing positive to offer. Have another go.

    • Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

      There is no such thing as ‘no deal’ though, is there?

      Perhaps, as a remain, you could tell us why we need a trade deal to exit your EU? And tell us why they want us so badly to remain.
      It couldn’t possibly be anything to do with our money, could it? Surely not.

      (How come this ”appalling destruction” has resulted in high employment in the UK, and all the other good things that are happening in our country at the moment ”despite Brexit”?)

  69. John Probert
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    The EU does not have any number of issues that could be corrected

    The EU is fundamentaley flawed which is why we need to continue

    to focus on Leaving

  70. ukretired123
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Remain subservient is not in Britain’s DNA.
    Lots of Remainers never think things through and only scratch the surface glossing over the previous errors and crises of the EUs own making.
    They treat its past injustices as irrelevant to the future, but it cannot escape from its track record, ever.
    It’s strength of uniting Germany and France is also it’s weakness as other countries have different cultures.
    Squaring the circle is their problem as both Germany and France have conquered the whole of Europe and it is not in their DNA to be regarded as just another country. Having been masters they do not want to be mere equals to Malta, Bulgaria etc .
    They are not humble and sincere as Britain has been whilst a 2nd class EU member for nearly 50 years!

  71. Wessexboy
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Andy; Martin in Cardiff; where are you? I was looking forward to your strong defence of Remain logic!

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      I think they have got new names?

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

      Well one thing is for sure. They can never live it down and we will take delight in reminding them every tine they post their nonsense.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

      schools back! Their tablets are banned.

  72. Simeon
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    A most pertinent question to be asked in light of an impending referendum which, surely, will offer either a ‘no deal’ Brexit or a revocation of Article 50, the only intellectually coherent choices available.

    So, will Dominic Cummings be running the “Vote Leave II” campaign (he’s back, and this time it’s personal…)? Could BJ win a GE in the event of the referendum deciding that the UK remains? Is this the Cummings masterplan? And in this case, is Cummings so clever that he’s worked out how to revolutionise British society whilst the UK remains a member of the EU? Stay tuned for the next episode of Boris Johnson’s Flying Circus.

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

      There is no referendum on the cards, but MPs such as McDonnell would like one. The choice he said would be between Remain, or a deal based on the WA (if I understood him correctly). No Deal would not be on the table. See videoclip of very recent tv interview.

      • tim
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:50 pm | Permalink


      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

        @Chris. Oh very democratic I don’t think!

        • Chris
          Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

          Indeed, it is beyond belief, Fedups.

    • BJC
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

      Keep up, Simeon. Labour’s latest ruse is a referendum between Remain or May’s thrice rejected WA, aka Remain with concessions or Remain without concessions. I suppose this is what happens when the not very intellectually coherent occupy positions of power.

      • Simeon
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

        I think Remainers will realise the referendum McDonnell is proposing would be self-defeating. People understand the WA is awful, and certainly not Brexit. The backlash would be huge. The only winners would be the Brexit party. The one advantage of all this appalling political manoeuvring is that the people are ready to get radical if there’s a stitch up.

    • pauline baxter
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

      Simeon has lost the plot. The opposition in parliament are intending a referendum on May’s version of Agreement versus Remain.
      That is – Brexit in name only or Remain. Actually we will be offered Remain or Remain if they have their way.

  73. Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    That has always been the case with the remainers. They decry the fact that we won and they lost and are constantly telling us that we are the mindless ones and ruining the future for our children but never have they given any pluses as to why they want to stay. It’s mind numbing that the information is out there for everyone to see, and hear, but they refuse to open their eyes and ears. Boris has got to see this through and get us out at the earliest opportunity.

  74. Ian!
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Please delete, my comments don’t fit the question

  75. Duncan
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Where do you get the time?

  76. libertarian
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Hey Martin in Cardiff and the Remainer Crew

    EU Tax & Customs 🇪🇺
    “I will make use of the clauses in the Treaties that allow proposals on taxation to be adopted by co-decision and decided by qualified majority voting in the Council.”

    Thats Ireland stuffed then . I think the solution to Irish border just got way way easier . Irexit

  77. Mick
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    So Parliament will be prorogued tonight, ho my god what will the bias bbc do for five weeks when they won’t be filling there boots with remoaner mps 24/7, I know get back to backing Britain and not these Eu loving remoaner muppet mps , you never know you might get some of your credibility back !!!!

    • DaveK
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      If as I believe the Queen gave her permission to prorogue Parliament not before 9th September, why didn’t the PM carry this out at 0001 9/9/19? Parliament should already be suspended.

  78. Chris
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Well this is what Hillary Benn understood when he voted: hilarious to have his current interpretation of Brexit so clearly contradicted by himself in 2016. See videoclip of Benn on this link:

    • Ian!
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:27 am | Permalink

      Something you wont see on the BBC – great

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

      They think we are stupid and forget things. Hammond denied he had ever said anything about leaving with no deal until it was shown he had. They are consummate liars. I bit his Dad would not be proud of his son’s anti democratic antics.

      • bill brown
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:37 am | Permalink

        Graham 1946

        This unfortunately applies to both camps
        -Turkish membership of the EU and 90 million knocking on our door
        -350 million more a week for the national health
        -we can negotiate a deal when we have left because were are better positioned than the EU

        • Edward2
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

          Turkey will join the EU. It is policy to allow further nations into the EU and Turkey is on that list.
          Even Cameron was saying he was in favour of Turkey moving towards membership.

          The NHS has already had increases of more than 350 million a week since the referendum and if we save the many billions we pay the EU when we leave, even more increases can be afforded.

          Remainers wasted three years and negotiated the dreadful Withdrawal Agreement and ignored the EUs offer of a trade agreement.
          Which Parliament refused to accept three times.
          Boris is having to restart what should have been a straightforward process.

          • bill brown
            Posted September 11, 2019 at 10:58 am | Permalink


            there is no set Remainer camp nor is there a set Brexiteer camp, so stop these funny generalisations

  79. a-tracy
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    31 comments shared and none of our resident Remainers have answered your questions, how odd, they have so much to say on everything else, are you holding them in moderation John?

  80. Chris
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Maybe I have missed something, could the EU make a condition of an extension that there is either a general election or Mrs May’s deal is accepted. This would give a 3 way option for the pro-eu faction to choose between. I suspect under those circumstances they would vote for Mrs May’s deal at the end of October, and possibly still refuse an election?

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

      Not my comment above, (starting Maybe I have missed…) but a newcomer to the Diary?

      • graham1946
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

        Yes we have at least 2 Andy’s including one sensible one. Looks like the screen names part of this blog has gone awry.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

      Chris …your name already used – -please add an initial or something to differentiate?

      • Chris
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

        Will do something, Fred. Thanks. Normally comments systems do not permit the same name to be used.

  81. Newmania
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    I was against joining the Euro and if as John Redwood claims joining it is, or will be , compulsory, I would have a problem. In fact the UK cannot be forced into this .
    The UK`s exemption form this route as part of special deal along with being out of the Schenghen area and many other opt outs , painfully won all of which will be thrown away
    That is the special deal the UK already had
    He implies that the UK would be on the hook for future Euro banking failure . In fact In 2011 the EU leaders agreed that the UK should not be part of any future bailouts.
    establishing a bailout fund, paid for by, and benefiting, eurozone countries only.
    If he would like to clarify that he only unintentionally implied anything else it would be appreciated .
    I think this is an interesting subject but reheating the old myths is less so. In any case it does not get to the heart of what the EU project is .
    It is an attempt to grasp the gains of free trade and free movement of capital without destroying communities and civilised values.

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      You can’t really believe all that baloney can you? If Remain win and we go crawling back to the EU begging for forgiveness and totally emasculated, as Verhofstadt’s office said on broadcast t.v. the UK will be a ‘colony of the EU’. Everything will be forfeit.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

      “It is an attempt to grasp the gains of free trade and free movement of capital without destroying communities and civilised values.”

      And free movement of people. That risks destroying communities.

      The unchecked influx of peoples from war zones and lawless nations risks destroying civilised values.

    • tim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:55 pm | Permalink


    • Richard1
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

      It seems to be the case that the UK has a watertight legal out from the euro. It is unclear as to whether in the event of a big bailout (eg aimed at taking eurozone states down to or towards the Maastricht limit if 60% debt /gdp) the liability would really only fall on eurozone and not EU members. Bob Lydon’s paper for Global Britain thinks not.

      The point Sir John makes, which is surely right, is the EU must and will integrate more deeply to ensure the viability of the euro. It needs fiscal transfers, cross-guarantees on debt, a banking union – and therefore common or at least centrally controlled tax and spending policies.

      The decision making body for this must be the eurozone, so being in the EU and not in the eurozone would be like (not Sir John’s analogy but he might agree) being a 10% shareholder in a company with a 90% controlling block. You can show up and vote but in the end you are powerless. (Where the analogy perhaps falls down is as a shareholder you have limited liability only….)

      Remain and Continuity Remain have simply refused to address this issue.

    • Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:29 am | Permalink

      REASONS Newmania. Reasons to remain.

  82. kzb
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    After 12:35 pm and still waiting !
    Come on Remainers give us some hope, because it’s increasingly obvious we’re not leaving.

  83. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    As if you needed any additional warning against choosing Boris Johnson as the Tory leader I gave you mine on May 31:


    “Boris Johnson was the MP for Henley back in the days when I could go round to our local shop in Maidenhead and buy a copy of the Henley Standard and read his weekly column, and then send another letter to the editor pointing out his many errors and misrepresentations about the EU. At a public meeting in Henley his stated position on the euro was ambivalent, to say the least, rather like that of his party, and as for leaving the EU altogether that clearly did not form any part of his plan. Not only is he like a bull in a china shop when what is needed is calm and clarity and precision and a degree of subtlety – look at Michel Barnier – I simply do not trust him to carry through on whatever he appears to be promising.”

    But even from that longstanding hostile perspective I never envisaged that he would bring utter disgrace on himself, and by extension all opponents of the EU, by openly proposing to flout the law of the land.

    • Robert Mcdonald
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      The disgrace is when the europhiles in parliament, led by the supposedly independant speaker, act in denial of the promises they were all elected on and block the only sensible negotiating position anyone can take … if the deal is not good enough they must be able to walk away. Their hypocrisy is beyond reasonable opposition standards and is idiotic bigotry.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

        We’ll see what the courts have to say about it. Clearly he thinks he is above the law, as did Charles I, and like the latter he will find out differently.

        I think it costs about £300,000 to get a boy through Eton, in today’s values, and this is how he can turn out. What a shocking waste of money.

    • tim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

      Dennis cooper, to flout the EU made law , handing over the UK to a foreign power!

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink


      Dr. Martin Luther King flouted the law many times. Why ? Because there are good reason for flouting bad laws. Or do you believe that the segregation laws were just and the likes of Rosa Parks deserved to be locked up ?

      Good parliaments create good laws which good people agree to and obey. Bad ones don’t !

  84. Robert Mcdonald
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    An accurate prediction of how the eu would have forced us into their clutches even more firmly.. and if the remain gang get their way and, God forbid, we are not allowed to leave it will be worse than that .. we will be a slave state .. no say, no rebate, no rights.

    • steve
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:16 pm | Permalink


      Interesting question. I suppose we could say remainers didn’t know what they were voting for, and that they were duped by their own side.

    • steve
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:27 pm | Permalink


      Even if remain get their spiteful way it won’t be for long. A general election will see to that.

      The seeds are sown, and at some point in the not too distant future we will have a government with the mandate to flush every single capitulation down the toilet.

      You might find ours is not the only country to do so, there is unrest brewing right across the continent.

      I reckon three, maybe two kingpin member states pull out and it’s game over.

      When it does collapse, you can be sure the EU elite will attempt to do a runner with the money….but be caught red handed and suffer the same fate as all despot dictators.

      It’s on it’s way mate.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

        No, we’re not like you, Steve.

        Read up on what has recently happened in Italy, and Salvini’s collapse in the polls, eh?

        • steve
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:15 am | Permalink


          “No, we’re not like you, Steve.”

          You got that much right.

  85. ADAMS
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    As far as I know the EU are already taking control of our armed forces and Parliament does not even talk about it or even care . Is that true John ?

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      You are right, Adams, courtesy of Theresa May, apparently. See the Veterans for Britain website for details e.g. article entitled:
      “A Brief Introduction to the Risks for the UK Arising from Current EU Defence Integration Schemes”.

  86. Caterpillar
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    I think these three points relate to PM Cameron’s espoused concerns.
    On 1 and 2 Cameron had words acknowledging that the UK would be exempt from “ever closer union”. This may have no true worth as “closer union” is not defined and UK PMs have a history of not giving the people a say (e.g. PM Major had no mandate for ratifying Maastricht but did not give a referendum, some might consider such dictating to the people as one of anti-democratic extremism rather than moderate).
    On 3 Cameron had the “red card” where it would take 55% of govts (sadly not one) to kick a recommendation back to the European Parliament (which they might ignore anyway).

    If people believed Cameron’s deal had some effect, even if marginal, then Remainers were voting for some limit to EU powers, presumably without this the Leave majority would have been even higher.

  87. Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    The 3 points of question that you put forward Mr Redwood, should have wider circulation.

  88. Oxiana321
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Sorry Steadyeddie, you know, I know, we all know that 40 years of seeking to influence decisions inside the EU has got us nowhere. Anyway, I am not concerned with exerting ‘influence’ if by doing so this country loses the ability to self-govern. When I vote for my local constituency MP, I want to be confident he / she will have real power to affect change for the betterment of our society, not that he / she is sidestepped by some new form of legislation produced by the unelected Commission, rammed through Parliament using Statutory instrument and subsequently enforced by the ECJ.

  89. Alan Joyce
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr. Redwood,

    On this occasion would you please consider allowing those Remainers keen to respond to your blog a little more largesse than usual, so that they may develop their arguments for staying in the European Union at some length.

    Clearly, allowing them a mere paragraph or two will not enable them to set out the many benefits of belonging to the organisation in much detail.

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

      They are not restricted, they run out of things to say after a couple of sentences and resort to personal insults, ageism and their superior intellect and education.

      By the way I do realise you were being ironic.

      • bill brown
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:39 am | Permalink

        Graham 1946

        This unfortunately, applies to both sides of the debate on this blog

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

      The Remainers on this site do not seem able/willing to put their case. Very strange.

  90. Mick the remaner
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    The mane avantage of stayin in the EU is bean told what laws we have to obay bi unlected brorocrats

  91. graham1946
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Well , Sir John, unless something happens during the second half of the day it would appear you have shut them up. But then we have asked for years what positives there are and they can’t think of one between the lot of them.

    • bill brown
      Posted September 11, 2019 at 10:55 am | Permalink

      Graham 1946

      Your generalisations are really helpful, thank you for your deep contributions

  92. David Maples
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    I support Brexit 100% Sir John, and for the record, I loathe the EU and all its repulsive modernist totalitarian dogma. But let’s pretend I am a committed remainer; why then do I want to stay in the EU? Because⤵️

    1) I despise all those uneducated ‘deplorables’ out there who don’t have a completely useless PPE type degree(like me), which lets me kid myself that I am qualified to act as a pillar of wisdom to people even more gullible and stupid than I am, in my pubescent fascination with Brussels.

    2) I care nothing for democracy anyway as I am an unmitigated fascist who thinks my opinions are beyond contradiction, and as such convinced the sensible way forward is to agree with me, that the EU is a glorious precursor of world government.

    3) Of course I know nothing about economic theory, and couldn’t tell you the difference between a Phillips curve and a Phillips screwdriver. However, as we are bound to be richer and more prosperous if we all muck in together, I think we should let the EU make our economic policy…and social policy too for that matter.

    4) I had no idea until very recently that if we stay in the EU, that our laws will all be legislated in the Commission, and that the British Parliament will be reduced to the status of a county council, but I don’t care, because my local county council are a bunch of idiots anyway, so we will be no worse off.

    5) I don’t really trust the leaders of this country to rule us fairly. My guess is that they will re-introduce lots of nasty laws banning homosexuality and abortion, and bring back the death penalty. The EU will never ban nice left wing laws like our horrible, right wing leavers.

    6) I believe only the best and cleverest people(like me), should make the important decisions. This way we will avoid politics altogether. People need to learn to do as they are told, not what the Daily Express tells them.

    7) We are far too small as a country to be independent, and need to be supported by others in Europe, because we are Europeans, aren’t we?
    It’s all right for much bigger and more powerful countries like New Zealand to be independent, but not us.

    8) The world is getting hotter, and so western europe should stick together, to stay cool and greenhouse free. The EU will guarantee this, by passing lots of regulations.

    9) The EU gives us lots of money every year, which we mustn’t lose.

    10) I like the idea of being european, with the right to live and work anywhere in the EU.

    I’ve got plenty more reasons why we should remain, and whatever leavers say, I’ll say the opposite. It’s really very simple, you see, I’m right and you are wrong!

  93. Ian!
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    The party “had not respected” the result of the 2016 referendum.

    “Remain is total travesty of democracy, total hypocrisy. RemainAlliance are deranged agents of #EU-#4thReich enslavement.”

    “The majority voted Leave without a deal, if there wasn’t a deal.

    “Campaigns against NoDeal are a cover to trash the historic democratic mandate to Leave”

    The above are quotes in todays papers attributed to one Piers Corbyn, Jeremy’s brother

  94. BR
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Don’t forget:

    European Army
    Removal of national vetoes
    Compulsory Euro membership
    and so on…

    Did all remainers vote for those? Without a veto, what other horrors are yet to be dreamed up and enforced upon us? Note that at least 2 of the above were not dreamed of at the time of the referendum.

    Awfully quiet round these parts, remainer-wise, isn’t it? Apart from the usual assertions, as ever with nothing to back them up, the remainers are conspicuous by their absence.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

      plus never an audit on where the money goes….
      Ever increasing contributions ( for the few).

  95. Iain Gill
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Are there any limitations to immigration numbers? If not let’s have a referendum on cutting immigration to zero…

  96. Original Richard
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    How many countries do they wish to be members of the EU ?

    The EU is currently working on membership for Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia Moldova, Serbia and the Ukraine.

    Followed by Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, Armenia, Georgia, Libya, Syria, Azerbaijan, Israel, Tunisia, Belarus, Jordan, Morocco all of whom receive money we send to the EU for its “European Neighbourhood Policy” (ENP) to help with their preparation for EU membership.

    Not forgetting the 7 “stan” countries Mr. Cameron wanted to join in his “Atlantic to the Urals” speech in Kazakhstan in July 2013.

    Or the EU’s implementation of the UN’s Migration Pact.

    Are we still going to have freedom of movement so any number of people from these countries can come to the UK ?

    How will we be able to plan and cope with the additional housing, schools, hospitals and infrastructure necessary?

    Mrs. Merkel outlined the EU’s immigration policy at the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Berlin 21/11/2018 :

    “Sovereign nation states must not listen to the will of their citizens when it comes to questions of immigration, borders, or even sovereignty.”

  97. MikeP
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    It would be interesting to have been able to find out how many people voted Remain in 2016 on the strength of Project Fear predictions that would have been a grave concern then but have been roundly ridiculed since. I’d guess at least 2 million.

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

      Get ready for more. They are going to publish the Yellowhammer nonsense dreamed up by Remainers before Boris took over, to blow up his government. The Establishment will never let us leave the EU. Too much money involved for too many in the know.

      • bill brown
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

        Graham 1946

        Do your home work the latest edited version was published by the government at the beginning of August. When, you make accusations about detrimental and not substantiated arguments , check your own facts first

        • graham1946
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

          Beginning of August – you prove my point. You think this stuff just comes about in a jiffy? This stuff was by commissioned the Treasury and was months in the manufacturing. At the time of release the new government had only been in operation a few weeks. It is being published at the behest of the Remoaners in Parliament in a bid to try to change people’s minds with another project Fear and it will prove as ridiculous as the first lot commissioned by Osborne. Perhaps you need to give a little more thought before telling people to do their homework. You don’t need to do homework because you rarely have anything useful to say.

  98. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Off topic but interesting:


    “Why did Leo Varadkar tell Boris Johnson that Ireland could be the UK’s ‘Athena’?”

    Well, there’s a lot of good explanatory material in that article, but the central point that is being missed is that Athena was a full goddess while Hercules was only a demi-god.

    So here we have the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic – population 4.7 million, GDP $360 billion – comparing his country to a powerful warrior goddess, Athena, who could perhaps be persuaded to intervene on behalf of an inferior, a mere demi-god, Hercules, that is to say the UK – population 66.1 million, GDP $2,900 billion – and as his country is being patronised in that way the UK Prime Minister – who should never have agreed to be the one travelling to seek an audience – stands there with a silly grin on his face.

  99. Andy
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    An excellent question – and one which is straightforward enough to answer.

    A vote for Remain was not a vote for the permanent status quo – but it was also not a vote for radical and immediate change.

    Rather it was a vote for slow, steady further integration – going at different paces for different countries but ultimately ending up in a similar place.

    Would a Remain vote have ultimately seen the UK using the Euro and joining Schengen? Undoubtedly, yes. In most of your lifetimes? Probably not. In my lifetime? Perhaps.

    But the point is that, despite Brexiteer scaremongering, these are not the sort of things which would have been imposed on us by the EU. They would have been our choice, at our pace when our country was ready.

    Not any more. They will not now be our choice. They will be a requirement of rejoining the EU. And, be in no doubt, if your children’s generation do not rejoin it (and I suspect they will) then your grandchildren’s generation certainly will.

    Brexit has, ironically, made it more likely that we will do all the things you think we shouldn’t.

    The question you all fail to ask – and the reason why Brexit is the wrong answer – is what will the world like like 50 or 100 years from now? What will your children and grandchildren’s world be like?

    Well, for a start, it will be a lot more integrated than it is today. Aside from the very biggest countries – like the US, China, India – most nations will need to work in regional blocs to have any sort of voice. Africa, South America, Asia will form their own versions of the EU. These blocs will themselves work more closely together to further break down barriers between us. And not just trade barriers either.

    This is the way the world is going. It has been going this way for 100 years – and you are not going to stop it.

    Finally – and crucially – no amount of ever closer union will ever stop you being British, or English or however you describe yourself. You will still be able to queue til your heart’s content (you’ll have to at airports) and you’ll still be able to moan about the weather.

    Being in the EU has not made France any less French. It has not made Germany any less German. The Italians are still proud of being Italian. It is just the Brexiteers who have such little faith in their country and their culture that they think it can’t thrive in a club of equals. How very very sad.

    • Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:37 am | Permalink

      Andy. Answer a simple question.
      WHY should we wish to remain in the EU?
      In your opinion. Don’t woffle. Don’t maunder. Don’t blather. Just tell us WHY you think we should remain in the EU.
      (You could also add reasons why it is so to be admired.)

    • dixie
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:30 am | Permalink

      So the only benefit you can think of that you think would appeal to Leavers is that remaining would be .. more of the same rubbish we have had to put up with for the last 40+ years. Even more lipstick on an increasingly uglier pig,

    • Keith
      Posted September 16, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      Rejoin the EU? There won’t be an EU as we know it in our children’s or grandchildren’s time. The federal project is going down the pan.

  100. Margaret
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    I would not have believed it 2yrs ago: blatantly passing a law preventing a no deal. We were led to believe that we were being governed by those who put our countries first. In my own little life I have been set up and lied to , kept down and all the time been aware of those discussing who they liked ,who they could keep up with, who to send up and who to break however on this scale it is simply a priori.

  101. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    The Daily Mail is reporting that Bercow has quit. Not before time. He knew he would be kicked out eventually. Please can we have someone decent this time?

    • Gary C
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

      “The Daily Mail is reporting that Bercow has quit. Not before time. He knew he would be kicked out eventually. Please can we have someone decent this time?”


    • steve
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:31 am | Permalink


      “He knew he would be kicked out eventually.”


      1) he’s just allowed process without Queen’s consent.

      2) his Achilles heel i.e harassment and bullying allegations.

      3) his pro Labour bias.

      I think it’s more likely Mr Bercowitz resigned before getting the bum’s rush.

  102. Ian terry
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Reported that the Speaker has resigned. Good riddance, taken far too long to smell the coffee and do the honourable thing. Strange that it was being widely reported he was going to be challenged at the next election. So he has jumped rather than be pushed. How many others within the house will see this as a benchmark to reflect on their behaviour over the last three years?

    • graham1946
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

      Trouble is, this useless Parliament is going to choose another one in the same vein. What was that nonsense about one Parliament not tying the hands of succeeding ones? They’ll get their retaliation in first before the public give lots of them the boot and they retire comforted with their severance packages and huge pensions.
      It’s to be deja vu not a Betty Boothroyd

  103. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Bercow is going, had misfortune to be watching his announcement and what followed – a perfect example of the Westminster bubble.

    • Oggy
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

      Yes I almost fell about laughing when opposition mp after mp got up to sing Bercows praises and all that he has done for democracy. These people really are delusional.

  104. margaret howard
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:22 pm | Permalink


    ” How far can the UK allow defence industrial integration go before it is no longer an independent nation for defence purposes?”

    Surely since we allowed the US to drag us into the Iraq war which so many MPs voted for and our blind following their aggressive foreign policy ever since, we have forfeited our claims to have an independent defence policy.

    Exactly what has the EU forced us to do that you claim will lose us our independence?

    • Jiminyjim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

      Is this really MH the best comment you can make about our host’s very specific and multiple questions? How utterly pathetic

    • Oggy
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      So you don’t have any good reasons to remain in the EU either ?- thought so.

  105. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Sorry, must correct my last post. My husband has given me the wrong information. Bercow not going until the 31st October.

  106. Cees
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    1/ you don’t have to be too concerned, by the looks of it you’re heading for the wilderness for a generation or two, or worse, more probably vassalage to your great white hope- Trump

    2/ Ditto

    3/ Ditto

    Am glad I don’t live in your country

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

      we are glad too.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

      Cees, we’re glad you’re not too

    • tim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      Cees –God Bless Donald Trump! God Bless Boris.

    • Oggy
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

      We are glad you don’t live in our country too.

    • margaret howard
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 11:40 pm | Permalink


      The standard of replies to your posting by Fred H, Fedup, tim and Oggy tells you all you need to know about the quality of Brexiteer comments

      PS and you are right about our US/Trump vassalage. It’s already happening.

      • Fred H
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

        mh — the replies to you indicate the level of esteem you are held in.

  107. Rob
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    I find it interesting the way leavers promote isolationist economics whilst also harking back to the war. What made us great was our ability to unite despite the issues surrounding us. Part of the problem is it wasn’t “us” living through the war. It was our ancestors. The majority of the issues mentioned are of our own making. We contributed to the beast the EU seems to have become. We promoted austerity politics and created the chaos and fake news about Europe, both positive and negative, to the point where all there is is noise and the truth is lost. Our own government has repressed its people to the point where many just voted for a change. They didn’t even care what it was, so disenfranchised were they with the status quo. The upper class used to fund social projects for the lower classes, such as libraries and schools. We all used to know who lived around us, and help each other out. We had compassion. Now we begrudge each other, call each other out and suffer from competing “truths”. Politicians used to be respected individuals who stood for their constituents’ interests. Now many insult and throw slurs at each other, maintaining the very minimum decorum required by the rules of their office. The UK is driven by greed, a desire for prosperity at all cost, and it is dark. We need to address this much more urgently than we need to leave the EU.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:50 am | Permalink

      You raise good points but, fail to answer the question set by our host.

      The EU is about power. Power in an unelected and unaccountable form. This, as history has repeatedly show, to be a bad thing.

      Those that voted Leave have seen their lives and the future for their offspring depreciate. They, rightly, see the EU and as a factor in this. Unable to influence events as decisions are taken elsewhere. Taking back control resonated with them, hence to the vote to Leave.

  108. BR
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    So the Bercow has said he’ll go by 31/10. Hmmm

    He thinks it’s ‘job done’ in the no-deal department. I wonder if he will rescind that as soon as he finds out that Boris has a cunning plan and it’s not taken place as he had hoped.

    His statement included the assertion that his successor should be voted on in this Putrid Parliament (I’ll avoid repeating the spurious ‘reasons’ he made up) but I suspect that means that he won’t want Lindsay Hoyle taking over, he’ll try to get Harman -……………………. – installed so that she can continue where he left off.

    Oh and Macron claiming he’ll refuse an extension. Yeah. right. Jangle, jangle. Smoke and mirrors, he’ll vote for it if he gets the chance, same as always.

    Any sign of some actual facts from remainers on JR’s challenge? Didn’t think so.

    • tim
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

      BR- Macron claiming he’ll refuse an extension. Thats good enough for me. Boris no need to do anything

    • Gary C
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

      “Oh and Macron claiming he’ll refuse an extension. Yeah. right. Jangle, jangle. Smoke and mirrors, he’ll vote for it if he gets the chance, same as always.”

      My thought’s too.

      • steve
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:37 am | Permalink

        Still, if Macron does refuse an extension we can make him a national hero.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

      President Macron will do as he is told. That is how it works in the EU.

  109. Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Well having read the comment it seem Remainers are shy about divulging their reason to want to Remain. Let me throw a light on one of their reasons – many receive money in grants, payments, subsidies, pensions etc without having to do at work. So they want to Remain for purely personal reasons and sod Democracy, Sovereignty and Britain!
    Lovely, ‘moderate’ people. Admirable. No wonder they want to shout this reason from t rooftop. rtc

    • ukretired123
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

      Exactly the hidden gravy train sees a cliff-edge on the 31 October 2019!
      Vested interests have thrown all tricks into keeping the GT going for another 3.5 years, including every bone in John squeaker Bercow’s body. Unbelievable just how many are in thrall to the EU including our supposedly independent Civil Service.
      As the saying goes when the tide goes out all will be exposed one way or another.

      • steve
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:51 am | Permalink


        “…..including every bone in John squeaker Bercow’s body.”

        Well that’s odd since he doesn’t have any.

  110. Mike Wilson
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Redwood, what will MPs be doing with their 5 weeks off? Another long holiday for MPs just after getting back from the summer break. It’s a tough job but someone’s got to do it. Jolly at the seaside for conference to fit in too.

    The expression ‘Nero fiddled while Rome burnt’ leaps to mind.

  111. Mike Wilson
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Any reasonable person would acknowledge there are many good things about the EU. My pencil hovered over the ballot paper for a good few minutes – having weighed up the pros and cons for weeks before. Was I really going to do it? In the end I did – confident my vote would simply be a protest. I was astonished when Leave won. Having won, we must Leave. It would be an outrage if we don’t. That said, there are plenty of good things about the EU. It’s a shame the people running it are so determined to ruin it.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

      Mike – the many good things are lost on me, please enlighten?

      • Mike Wilson
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

        Freedom of movement is a great thing generally although it does create issues. Some sort of limits would have been a good thing. Oh, hang on, limits were allowed but OUR government ignored them.

        The Single Market is a good idea.

        A Customs Union is a good idea.

        The stuff about trade and people is good. Common action on the environment, cooperation on lots of different matters – all good.

        The single currency and the ambition for an undemocratic political union are what made me vote to leave.

        • Mark B
          Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink


          But the thing is, all the good and bad things are part of a take it or Leave it package. The EU have repeatedly told UK governments of all hues that there can be no cherry picking. And their right !

  112. Duncan
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    So many questions John and all pertaining to the EU- wonder what you’ll have to go on about post 31st Oct?😃

  113. GilesB
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Why didn’t the EU bill #6 need to be proposed by a Minister? Why didn’t it need Queen’s consent?

    • steve
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 5:45 am | Permalink

      Giles B

      “Why didn’t it need Queen’s consent?”

      It did, but Mr Bercowitz and his cowardly Labour traitor friends probably estimated Her Majesty would have issues with it.

  114. Gareth Warren
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    I wait in anticipation of someone actually writing something positive about the EU, but I expect it will ignore the evidence of ever closer union, something raised in the 1960’s by Enoch Powell.

    Today it is an ever larger bureaucratic mess that is rewarded for the quantity of regulations it imposes by ever increasing size, 10,000 of them are paid more than a top neurosurgeon.

    Cleanly leaving this mess will significantly reduce wasted taxes, let us get on with it.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

      There is no more such a thing as “clean exit” from the European Union than there is a “clean evisceration”, or a “tidy plane crash” or a “neat chemical works explosion”.

  115. Stephen Reay
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m afraid it’s game over for Boris’s Brexit plan . The WA will be brought back and will be voted through, otherwise we will remain and democracy in this country will never be the same again.

    What type of remain did remain voters vote for ? Just the status co, but it wouldn’t have been would it.

  116. Jiminyjim
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    A whole 12 hours, Sir John, with not a single sensible response. How revealing

  117. forthurst
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    There were three classes of Remainers in my experience as a local activist:

    Those who had been brainwashed. It is important to remember that the three main parties, the media, and academe had been spewing pro-EU propaganda 24/7 and that at the time of the Referendum, the Tory government spewed out Project Fear to deter the waverers.

    Those of alien extraction who wish to live in the UK but do not wish to be ruled by those people, the English, that created their adoptive home.

    Those who pose as ‘us’ but are vehemently hostile to the English, start gabbling about the Economist in support of their arguments for Remain and who easily lose their tempers because their temperaments are (not very ed) Anglo-Saxon.

    Your PM, David Cameron, talked about the EU extending to the Urals. That was and is the Tory Party, a party that wishes to abolish the right of the English to govern ourselves, a party that fights wars for the globalist scum and incorporates every new piece of their deliberately destructive agenda into law on the phony grounds of ‘savingtheplanet’ or ‘inclusiveness’.

    • forthurst
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

      I forgot to mention a further category, namely those who either work for the EU or derive a specific benefit from it such as those who produce reports commissioned by the EU; these people were actually rather rare, overall.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 10, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

        Rare but highly influential.

  118. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Well, I don’t know about you guys but I’m worn out reading all the good reasons to remain. Lol. I really thought Andy and his mum would have such a lot to day, but nothing with any substance. What a laugh. You couldn’t make it up. Must get an early night. I’m worn out.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 9, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

      Say, not day.

  119. pauline baxter
    Posted September 9, 2019 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    You asked some very sensible questions Sir John.
    You got no sensible answers to them.

    • Mark B
      Posted September 10, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      I asked sometime ago just one question. Name one thing the EU can do for a member country that no other non-EU country cannot do for itself ?

      Needless to say I too received no useful reply.

  120. Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    I can’t imagine why none of those always so-vociferous remains (Andy, his mum Margaret, Newmania, Tab, Hefner, Len, etc) let a chance like this pass them by. Poor MinC was left to carry the rusty old can! They could have used this opportunity to educate us thicko leavers. They could have used simple words of one syllable, and short concise bullet points, so that we could understand.

    So – where were they?

    • Posted September 10, 2019 at 2:51 am | Permalink

      PS I meant ”allowed a chance like this to pass them by..”

  121. Paul McGreevy
    Posted September 12, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Brexit is a battle of ideologies. Nothing to do with economics, nothing to do with the EU. It’s about those who want to be controlled by as they see it as the greater good and those who don’t wish to be controlled but want to take responsibility for their own destiny because it’s obvious authoritarianism , mass bureaucracy, subjugation, political correctness, aka communism will not succeed.

  • About John Redwood

    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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