The choice in this election is simple – Corbyn or Conservatives in government?

Elections are said to be about many things. At election time lobby groups abound each with their own Manifesto trying to get prominence for their cause. A range of parties offer competing visions of what government could  be like if they were allowed to change it. The public becomes engaged, with many voters seeing it as a chance to get more political attention to their worries.

This election has debated the NHS, the economy, taxes, spending plans, Brexit, trade policy, green issues, homes, planning and many other concerns. A lot of old soundbites and a few new ideas have come to greater public attention.

In  the end, however, it comes down a simple choice. Do you want a Conservative government, or do you want a government led by Mr Corbyn and Labour?  The polls all indicate by a large margin that these are the two most likely outcomes. The media and commentariat agree. It was right that  we had  two debates between the two men who could  be Prime Minister this Friday.

No-one can deny that is a genuine and big choice. The Conservatives offer affordable increases in spending on priorities in education, healthcare and law and order, and sustainable tax cuts for the many. Labour offer large increases in public spending on most things, along with a very expensive nationalisation programme. They say they will merely tax the rich to pay for it, but confirm they will take away the married allowance. They would end up having to tax the many to pay for some of the long list of items of increased spending. Last time Labour tried taxing the rich hard we had a brain drain so many of them paid less or nothing at all.

The Labour government of the 1960s ended with a devaluation crisis and its aftermath. The Labour government of the 1970s effectively bankrupted us, forcing us to borrow from the IMF to pay the bills they ran up. The Labour government 1997-2010 created a nasty great recession and left us with no money. Each Labour government put up unemployment.

The difference with the Corbyn plans is they are so extreme we would get to the economic crisis more quickly were his programme to be attempted.

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170 Comments

  1. mickc
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Yes, I’d love a conservative Conservative government…we haven’t had one since Thatcher.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:19 am | Permalink

      And even she could only stem the tide, rather than change the course.

      • Hope
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

        JR, tell us whether this scare blackmail blog is better than your blog about the UK having a puppet parliament that you would have left if not for Brexit?

        It strikes me you cannot have it both ways. Either Corbyn will lead a puppet parliament for the EU, the same as the last forty years where it matters not who is in charge, or your mob under vassalage to the EU under worse terms! The choice of your party in govt looks a lot more frightening to me.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      Even Mrs Thatcher made huge and predictable errors. She closed very many good grammar schools, failed to cut taxes sufficiently, embedded us further into the EU, push the obviously politically damaging poll tax, fell for the climate alarmism and “renewable” energy religion/con trick, appointed someone who failed to obtain his maths GCSE as Chancellor, allowed him to take us into the ERM (despite the sound advice of JR, Sir Alan Arthur Walters and many others) and then even allowed/helped Major to take over as PM. Thus burying the party for many terms.

      She also failed to address the dire NHS structure which can never work as currently structured and did not introduce freedom of choice in education or at the BBC.

      Though they did sensibly have tax breaks to encourage private provision in health care rather than another 12% IPT tax on top of it (thanks to “surrender act”Hammond).

      • Hope
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:38 am | Permalink

        Yes but look where Thatcher started from and look at some of the dishonest treacherous MPs around her who pretended to b Tory but were secretly dressed in EU colours. The same traitors trying to stop our departure from the EU today. They still act as recruiting agents for their cause and silently them get them to positions of power.

        The Tory party needs to be cleansed before anyone is stupid to vote for them. A term of Corbyn might do the trick.

        • rose
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 12:01 am | Permalink

          Also she didn’t shut the grammar schools: the councils did that, with a few Conservative ones not doing so, which is why some such schools survive today. The Conservative government and MPs respected the line between central and local government then.

          She didn’t push the poll tax. It was dreamed up very early on by Letwin and Waldegrave but she was too cautious to accept it. She kept sacking environment secretaries who didn’t come up with an alternative until at last a crisis was caused when the five yearly Scottish revaluation resulted in the Scottish Conservatives losing their seats. (Because the rates soared.) They came down to London to tell her to for God’s sake get rid of the rates quick or the same thing would happen in England at the next revaluation. It was adopted but then the Treasury refused to support it. If it had been pegged at the same rate as the BBC licence fee, the BBC would not have been able to kill it off.

          • rose
            Posted December 9, 2019 at 12:07 am | Permalink

            She wasn’t able to reform the NHS or the Law because there was a limit to the amount of contentious reform she could pack into that turbulent period. she was always very conscious there was a lot more to do.

            Can you imagine her successors being able to cope with the Miners Strike, the Falklands War, the IRA, and an absolutely vile press?

      • mickc
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

        She headed us in the right direction…but even she couldn’t pull the coach on her own!

        I think the seeds she planted will yet give a fine crop…the Brexit vote was a first yield…

        Sorry about the mixed metaphors!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

          Indeed let us hope so.

      • Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

        I agree. She could have done more but said she needed 4 more ‘of us’ in the Cabinet to do so. Why in the name of all that is good did she not therefore appoint them? It is a disgrace, with the quality of the people we British produce with monotonous regularity, that Mrs T nevertheless is the last recognisable Tory PM (and Callaghan the last gentleman to hold that post).

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

        Thatcher was just the spokesperson for the IEA etc. nexus which actually ran the then government, I think.

        The policies were theirs.

        So, therefore, were the dreadful misjudgments.

        But blame that lady if you like – she’s not here to defend herself.

  2. Lifelogic
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    It is even worse than merely a government led by Corbyn. It would be a government led by Corbyn but with the SNP tail wagging the dog. What sensible English or Welsh person wants Nicola Sturgeon or Ian Blackford part ruling over them and demanding even more subsidies from English tax payers for their daft socialism which is doing such harm to Scotland.

    What sensible person will invest in the UK when people like Corbyn threaten to confiscate their assets of them, destroy the property letting industry and to destroy much of the rest of the economy too. Labour makes much of the Conservative threat to the NHS. But the real threat to the NHS is a Venezuelan economy that is proposed by Corbyn/Mc Donnall. what sensible person want another dithering coalition negotiating or rather surrendering to the EU?

    Plus we would be giving even more power to the powerful state sector unions. It would be a disaster for rich and poor alike.

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

      It is the property letting industry that is turning so many of the young to Corbyn. Locked out of ownership.

      That and old people living on their own in big houses – mass immigration is a taboo subject and cannot be blamed.

      • Gareth Warren
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:54 am | Permalink

        I note that old people want to live in their current houses than move to purpose built smaller flats, I don’t blame them and would probably make the same decision.

        The solution is less immigration, the conservative points based system sounds good, I personally would say a system that required someone to be paid 30-50% above the average wage would work too.

        I also believe we need much stronger planning laws, new houses today are too small and make for areas where people will enjoy lower quality of life. Making more large houses and less immigration will increase happiness in the long term.

        • hefner
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

          With the present average salary at around £29k/year, your personal wish would correspond to salaries between £37.7k and £43.5k. Maybe a look at http://www.savethestudent.org that gives starting salaries for people beginning in a job (as accepted immigrants would be likely to be considered) might show how your proposal is realistic. Not.

          • hefner
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

            Look at ‘Average graduate salaries in the UK 2019’, then choose the area, ‘Nursing’ for example.

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

          I advocate Help to Move (for old people) over Help to Buy for young people.

          One loosens up existing property for proper use, the other inflates house prices further.

          Many old people want to move but have left it all too late and remain in large, super heated houses.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

        Would you rather did not have somewhere to live at all? Not everyone wants to buy or is ready or in a position to buy. With stamp duty at such absurd rates there is little point in buying anyway until you are fairly sure you are staying somewhere for a few years at least. Also no point in buying a one bed or studio flat if you will need a two or three bed property very soon – and you perhaps cannot afford that as yet.

        You pays your money and takes your choice.

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

        Anon, There are (officially) over 9 million people not born in the UK but living here. Unofficially, there are many more than that. If only half went home there would be plenty of houses for the natives and millions of migrants remaining.

        • bill brown
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

          NickC

          This is a load of rubbish as the majority of them contribute to the economy. We have not been building enough houses to our own people in the past ten years, where they are actually needed. So get your facts right

          • NickC
            Posted December 9, 2019 at 9:30 am | Permalink

            Bill Brown, It is irrelevant whether migrants “contribute to the economy” or not for this issue. They occupy housing, and if half of them went home there would be plenty of houses. Yes that means a slightly lower UK GDP total, but unchanged or better GDP/head. Remember: turnover (GDP) is vanity, profit (wealth) is sanity.

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

          We don’t even need to talk about this to be able to make things better. (I do agree with you, however.)

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      A disaster for our defence and deterrent strategy too.

  3. Shirley
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    ‘Vote for us, or you’ll get something far worse’. Hardly a good sell is it, but it keeps the LibLabCon cartel going, doesn’t it?

    So we have a choice between the Conservatives, with a large number of Brexit blockers, or other parties full of Brexit blockers. Brexit was never wholly about the economy. You can’t put a price on freedom.

    So now we have to gamble on the Conservatives rather than have our economy destroyed. The Conservative track record for keeping promises is abysmal!

    I’m voting Brexit Party. It will be no loss to the Tories, as I live in Labour stronghold, but as the MP is a Remainer and the constituency voted Leave, I hope the Brexit Party can win, whereas the Tories stand little to no chance as they have done plenty to destroy our area, and virtually nothing to help it.

    I am a floating voter, and I will never vote LibLabCon again. All have more than their share of undemocratic politicians.

    I am constantly amazed by the people I once admired coming out publicly against Brexit, and trying to stop it happening. I no longer admire them. I pity them, and also start wondering why they want to destroy trust and democracy in the UK.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:57 am | Permalink

      I would have voted for the Brexit Party candidate in Maidenhead if Nigel Farage had not stood her down from fear that she could erode Theresa May’s wafer thin majority, a mere 26,457 in 2017, and perhaps let in a euromaniac candidate.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

        You can have my vote.

        • Hope
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

          Dennis, I am intrigued what are you going to do with your vote?

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

            I intend to spoil my ballot paper.

      • Brigham
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

        My Brexit candidate has stood down to let in Damian Collins. He was a remainer and has now seen the light. (so he says) I don’t believe a word of it.

      • Helen Smith
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

        Nigel’s strategy is quite mad, standing down against the few Tory Europhiles left in the party yet standing against good Brexit backing Tory candidates in marginal constituencies where he risks splitting the vote.

        I’m afraid he has allowed ego and jealousy to get in the way of Brexit.

        • NickC
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 9:31 am | Permalink

          Helen S, Yes it is a blunder on Nigel’s part exactly as you say.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:16 am | Permalink

      How confident are you that your BP candidate isn’t a Tory sleeper agent ready to come home if elected?

      • Shirley
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

        No more confident than many who vote for Conservative MP’s. They have hardly been honest, have they? If the choice is between voting for a confirmed liar, or a potential true Brexiter … I will go for the Brexiter, until I know they are liars too.

        • Hope
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

          Spot on Shirley. You are not alone I know lots of people who feel the same. They prefer not to turn out than vote for the lying treacherous Tory party who put party before Country.

          A Tory party ashamed to say or mention the word England. A party who promised to answer the alothian question to give England the same say as e other U.K. Nations but have repeatedly failed to do so. No mention from JR, who allegedly speaks up for England!

        • Simeon
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

          That’s fair enough. No reason not to roll the dice as there is now nothing to lose.

          I live in a Con-Lab marginal where the sitting MP is Labour, so I assume there will be a BP candidate. However, I have had no contact from the BP whatsoever. By far the most active campaigners have been the Lib Dems (though they have no hope; it would seem an investigation into campaign spending is absolutely necessary). If I thought the BP had a chance I’d probably vote that way. But it is obvious they don’t.

          • Shirley
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

            The only leaflet I have received is from the Brexit Party. I am in a Labour stronghold so maybe LibLabCon don’t feel the need (or are too timid) to campaign here. This part of England is well known for our blunt speaking so I can imagine many campaigners getting short shrift.

          • Simeon
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

            Sounds as if Labour are taking your constituency for granted. It would be nice to see them punished for that, and their many other sins.

  4. Lifelogic
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Any answers yesterday had an ex (long term) prisoner call in. He seemed sensible and to have had considerable experience of the reality of Jihadi supporters in prisons. He seemed to think that a very high proportion indeed of them would continue to be a threat on release. I suspect he is right. The Home Office and Justice Department heads need to speak to such people and get real about what is going on in prisons.

    This before releasing any more dangerous people into the community. Any one of which might well want to and be capable of killing 100+ people.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:33 am | Permalink

      Any one of whom!

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      The many ex prison officers I know (quitting in droves) tell me the same.

      The authorities don’t want to know.

      They want to apply all the statist restrictions on the general public whilst being soft and shit scared of dealing with radicals because of political correctness and/or a visceral hatred of their own country and people.

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Rod Little is spot on (and very amusing with it), today in the Sunday Times and in his recent excellent book.

    “I absolutely do not think the BBC is biased” said Kirsty Walk, in her interview podcast with Iain Dale. So is she really this daft or is she just lying to keep her job/employers happy? She is yet another arts graduate with the usual deluded BBC values. Little understanding of business, science, energy, climate, real politics, risk reward, logic or economics, someone who wants big government, more EU rule over us, left wing governments, is insufferably PC, a climate alarmist believer, the usual dislike of Trump and the US, a feminist chip on the shoulder – just like nearly all the other group think dopes at the BBC.

    Due to this perhaps she really cannot just see the blatant and incessant BBC bias evident in almost every single programme they pump out.

    She goes to in the interview to show off her climate change religious beliefs – “our generation literally screwed it up we drank at the bar and left the bill” – Deluded unscientific BBC group think to her very core.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      Perhaps Kirsty has just never noticed that BBC political programmes are, on average, about 80% remain to 20% leave. This when the population as a whole is more leave than remain.

      Plus they are always chaired by a “BBC think” remainer to add further bias. As the leaver can then hardly yet a word in edgewise, without one or more of the remainers or chairman interrupting, then bias is even worse than the 80/20 figure suggests.

      • Stred
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

        As Rod Lidl said, with one letter changed, the BBC are at peak Wark.

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:40 am | Permalink

      There is nothing stopping a greenist settling the bar bill now – they are still drinking.

      There is nothing stopping a greenist cutting their person carbon to zero right now !

      Any who doesn’t is not worth listening to and celebrities are the worst hypocrites. Even David Attenborough has only just turned vegetarian. I have 50 years on him in this regard.

      I used a tiny fraction of the resources that Emma Thompson does.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:21 am | Permalink

        “There is nothing stopping a greenist cutting their person carbon to zero right now !”

        That will give some of them something to think about on their private jets, racing yachts or their first class flights. If any of them do thinking?

        I try to keep mine to about about 0.1% of Prince Charles’s output. Not of course that C02 is really the problem the mad alarmist pretend it is. It is certainly is not some World Thermostat as some frauds and bent “scientists” claim.

  6. agricola
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Corbyn has identified many of the things in our society that need correcting. However to do so you need to create wealth, individual and national. Corbyn’s solution to achieve this would guarantee the exact opposite. As you point out, not once when Labour have had power, have they left the country in a better financial state than they found it on taking power. They are a bancrupt philosophy in every sense of the word. Corbyn’s version is Marxism which has been assuaged just about everywhere in the World.

    The Conservatives have the chance to prove they are true Conservatives having dabbled in left wing thinking for too long. Conservative management can eliminate the Corbyn wish list for individuals by being financially successful. The question mark in my mind is does Boris have the guts to remove us from the EU unencumbered with WA2. He has that quality of leadership encapsulated by ” Once more unto the breach dear friends”, he is also intelligent without being intellectually detatched. It remains to be seen whether he will committ. The choice is simple, freedom and immediate sovereignty or more years of uncertainty. I have already placed my money , where will he put his.

    • oldwulf
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

      Which would I prefer:

      Corbyn for 5 years or

      Johnson’s “Leave” Agreement.

      Not a straight forward choice.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:22 am | Permalink

        It is Corbyn would be a total disaster in every way.

        Anyway Boris would be far more amusing and more fun. We just need to get him to just leave.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

        Would Corbyn last five years? Would Corbyn be as bad as the MSM suggest, especially given he would be forced to compromise given he’s not getting a majority? Hope that helps!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

          A Corbyn government forced to compromise by the Sturgeon and the SNP sounds appalling to me. What do the Scots see in her and Ian Blackford?

          • Simeon
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

            That is an appalling prospect, but in my view the lesser of two evils. The only policies they could certainly agree would be the two referendums. The SNP cannot vote on matters that do not pertain to Scotland. They could theoretically enable Labour policies, but given how shrewd the SNP are, I think they’d realise that interfering in English matters would be impolitic. Ultimately, I think a Labour minority or coalition government would be shortlived, but we would at least be delivered from the dire WA Treaty.

        • rose
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

          “Would Corbyn be as bad as the MSM suggest,”

          Corbyn is shorthand for Corbynism which would endure beyond him. He won’t be allowed to retire until the Corbynite succession is in the bag.

          If he had any power or influence he wouldn’t have to be pretending to be a remainer.

  7. Everhopeful
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Goodness knows what the Labour Party actually is now but I know it brings with it a rag toggle army of extreme, far, far leftists…anarcho communists, IWW etc.
    Those types are not giggly, liberal fun.
    The Tories have been extremely stupid in gradually ditching conservatism and IMO have done incalculable harm. To country and party.
    Devil and deep blue…rock and a hard place for the voter.
    But what do I know? I dare say it is all one huge hoax.
    However, I will be pressing very hard with my pencil to put a cross for myTory MP.

    • James1
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

      Yes, in essence it has come down to Boris saying “vote for me or you’ll get Corbyn”. True, and what a terrifying prospect. Even worse would be Mr Corbyn and his comrade Mr McDonnell propped up by Nicola Sturgeon, who has admitted that she is hoping for a hung Parliament so that she can exercise the maximum influence. For any politician to hope for a hung Parliament is breathtakingly appalling.

    • NickC
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

      I must say that I am truly shocked by the anti-semitism that seems to have infected many parts of the Labour party. I never thought this would happen in our country.

  8. Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    General Freiherr Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord was Chief of the German High Command in 1933 at the height of German power.
    “I divide my officers into four classes: the clever, the lazy, the industrious and the stupid. Each officer possesses at least two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can be made in certain circumstances of those who are stupid and lazy.
    “The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the highest command. He has the requisite nerves and the mental clarity to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be got rid of, for he is too dangerous.”

    Those quotes from John Julius Norwich were in yesterday’s Mail. I think it is pretty obvious where Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell land – one of each!

  9. Ian Wilson
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    So we have the choice between Jeremy Corbyn bankrupting the country with Marxist policies or Boris Johnson bankrupting us by caving in to the Green Mafia with his zero carbon and anti-fracking policies (see Ruth Lea “carbon policies are futile gesture politics” and engineering Professor Michael Kelly “Energy utopias and engineering reality” Incidentally the Somerset earthquake causing negligible damage was many times as strong as the tremors which ruinously killed fracking and left us reliant on gas from Russia and Qatar.

    I will probably vote Conservative as the lesser evil but I dearly wish there was an option which really supported the economy.

    • Stred
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

      If Boris scrapes home and proceeds to follow disastrous greencrap policies leading to energy costs even higher than those in Germany, then the Brexit Party will morph into something like the AfD but perhaps the Sense Party of AfUK.

  10. Simeon
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    Well, that’s one view I suppose… I don’t share it.

    I think that it is necessary to make the point that Labour’s extreme programme would be drastically moderated were they to fail to secure a majority, which seems much more likely than not. On the matter of Brexit, which is still the one truly big issue, a Labour minority or coalition government would offer the least worst option of revoking A50 after a referendum. (Still an appalling outcome, but far better than the alternative.) In contrast, a Tory-led government would almost certainly result in BJ’s horrifying Treaty, with the chances of revoking A50 slim to none. A Tory majority and the game is well and truly up.

    Sir John, your lack of enthusiasm for your party’s policy on Brexit is palpable. The same can be said for your view of the rest of Tory policy. You have not been able to bring yourself to convincingly make the case for either because you know each is objectively awful. This is clear from your longstanding political views expressed over decades. Your endorsement of your party is transparent electioneering. You have your reasons, and that’s fine. Perhaps things would be different, and better, were you in a position to provide leadership. Instead your party is led by quislings. No one that desires an independent UK above all else could vote Tory now.

    Reply I strongly support the economic and budget strategy set out by the leadership, and the clear Manifesto commitment that we will take back control of our laws, borders and money.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply,

      Thank you for allowing my comment and also for replying.

      Though I am against the vast majority of public spending for philosophical reasons (public services are inevitably politicised), if the increases in spending were accompanied by a coherent plan to reduce inefficiency they would be far more palatable. The NHS is grossly inefficient. The criminal justice system is not dit for purpose. Laws and policies that address criminality are either inadequate or plain wrong-headed. Education in this country has been compromised by the expansion of universities, the denigration of less and non-academic skills, and a collapse in standards. And our tax system is abysmal, open to abuse by those who can afford ckever accountants. I could go on. Simply throwing money at problems doesn’t solve them.

      And as for the Manifesto commitment you mentioned… I’ve said enough on that!

      • sm
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

        Simeon, you have put my serious reservations into a nutshell.

        However, I have taken the trouble to organise a proxy vote for myself in order to vote ‘least worst’, ie a Brexit-minded Tory candidate in my old constituency, formerly a Conservative stronghold, in order to keep out (hopefully) the appalling prospect of a Labour/Momentum government.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

      But the WA and PD don’t give us back control. Level playing field etc.
      Barnier has again said until our contribution to the EU budget, rights of people and access to UK fishing waters are agreed then there can’t be any trade agreement.

  11. Mark B
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    So, we as always, because that is what our voting system delivers, being asked to choose between the Conservative and Labour Parties. Or, what is commonly known as, Hobson’s Choice’.

    The Conservative Party has been in office for nearly 10 years. It has made many promises and, with the exception of the EU Referendum, has pretty much failed to deliver on them. It has cut the number of police, fire stations and military. It has introduced gay marriage. It has created numerous departments (eg. ONS and Overseas Aid) at great cost and to no benefit. It has presided over many tax rises (eg. fuel and insurance). It has proceeded with two great White Elephant projects (Hinkley Point and HS2) to great cost and no benefit. it has slavishly carried out EU laws. It has caused war in Libya and Syria. It has created many hate laws. It has failed to tackle Labour’s client state. It has negotiated the worst deal in history – our own Treaty of Versailles whose 100th Anniversary is next year. And so on.

    So why should anyone want to vote for them ?

    The Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn would indeed be a disaster. But it will at least be short.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:50 am | Permalink

      I agree with much of that, but even a short Corbyn/Sturgeon government would be a total disaster. Also they have plans to gerrymander the electoral system – so what makes you sure it would be that short?

      Hobson’s choice derives from an inn (now now part of the site of St Catharine’s College Cambridge I believe) and how they hired out their horses – you just got the one at the front of the queue not two choices. Thank goodness Corbyn is not the only choice.

      We may not have the perfect horse on offer – but Boris is so much better than the would be Marxist confiscatory and blatant (promise everything to everyone) con merchant Corbyn and Sturgeon.

      Just look at his dire, daft and dangerous team too – Abbot, Mc Donnall, Lammy, Watson, (White Van) Thornbury, Barry Gardener, Long-Bailey, Vaz, Butler, Rayner …… what sensible person would want this lot? A truly appalling prospect.

      Boris is better on Brexit, on the economy, on defence, on immigration levels, on tax levels and even on the NHS and public service.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:18 am | Permalink

        LL

        Things have been engineered that way so you do get what you are given.

        I saw a play recently and it was Hobson’s choice. So I know the history and what it means.

        But thanks anyway.

      • Stred
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

        What sensible person? According to polls, 95% of school teachers and lecturers. My Mrs reports hearing highly paid academics telling the others that they have sent their postal vote in already for Labour and assuming that their colleagues will all agree with them.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

        Boris is not meaningfully better on anything, and on Brexit is actually much worse. Undiluted Corbyn would of course be awful, but that is not a realistic proposition. He would be limited by those in his own party, together with coalition partners, or confidence and supply partners, and also, of course, the EU themselves. A Corbyn catastrophe is scaremongering plain and simple, straight out of the Project Fear playbook.

        • Mark B
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

          Precisely !

      • Hope
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

        LL,
        The flawed logic to your comments is that JR tells us it is a puppet parliament. So if Corbyn gets in and implements everything EU what is going to change from the past?

    • Dominic
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

      It seems Tory MPs have become cannon fodder with most of them voting for legislation they revile or despise.

      Ask the question why is it that the Tory party should have introduced legislation legalising same-sex marriage and Hate Crime legislation. This type of politics is simply not Tory thinking, it’s Labour territory. Tory virtue signalling, which of course is self defeating and perceived by the left as an act of weakness, has destroyed ancient freedoms

      I could never vote Tory again however much that pains me. They have betrayed every single principle in the Conservative handbook.

      To capitulate to minority rights activist pressure across so many areas is cowardice full stop.

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

        Dominic

        “To capitulate to minority rights activist pressure across so many areas is cowardice full stop.”

        EXACTLY !

        And I can’t abide cowards, which is why I won’t vote for them.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:20 am | Permalink

        The way they treated Roger Scruton was abominable.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

          It was indeed absolutely appalling.

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

        Mark B, Lifelogic, and Dominic – sad but true, well said.

        • Mark B
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

          Cheers. 🙂

  12. Mick
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    In the end, however, it comes down a simple choice. Too right it does and it shouldn’t even be entering people’s heads to vote for Corbyn or Swinson, Swinson would stop Brexit on it’s first day and Corbyn along with his team of misfits would grovel to the Eu to keep us in under the Eu terms with not a chance in hell of there ever going to be another referendum on leaving the Eu which would suit the snowflakes down south, I can only hope that the good people up north see the Labour Party for what it as become and hold there noses and on this occasion vote for the conservatives no matter how distasteful it will seem because we are never ever going to get the chance again to leave the dreaded Eu

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      With respect, the Conservative party are not offering to leave the EU. This is why many contributors to this site who are naturally and instinctively Conservative will vote AGAINST the Conservatives. I understand why some will vote Conservative, hoping against hope that somehow, contrary to all the evidence, we will actually leave the EU in the only way worthy of the term. But to vote Tory and EXPECT to leave is a recipe for even more disappointment.

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

        Simeon, Exactly right, unfortunately.

  13. Martin in Cardiff
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    I note that you state that the choice is between “Corbyn or Conservatives in government”, rather than “Labour or Conservatives in government”, or “Corbyn or Johnson as Prime Minister”, as consistency would have advised, John.

    Many people say that your party are no longer the Conservatives, and something else altogether, but I can see why, under the circumstances, you trade under that name.

    You are right though, and it is why the ratings for the brexit party and for the Lib Dems are collapsing.

    • steve
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:21 am | Permalink

      MiC

      “…it is why the ratings for the brexit party and for the Lib Dems are collapsing.”

      Farage’s ratings are collapsing because true to his form he’s run away from the fight, again.

      “Many people say that your party are no longer the Conservatives, and something else altogether, but I can see why, under the circumstances, you trade under that name.”

      Indeed they are not Conservatives. They trade under the name because if people saw what they really were, and what they intend for the UK they wouldn’t get any votes.

      They’re con merchants, and not to be trusted.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      Johnson is almost as toxic as Corbyn, and more so than the Conservative brand, which is saying something.

      The Conservative party are however aptly named as they seek to perpetuate the status quo as far as is possible, as has always been the case, Thatcher being the exception – though even her radicalism was tempered by the establishment, icluding, of course, those in her own party.

  14. Johnny Dubb
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Sir John
    Good luck. You are one of the few real conservatives.
    However, the choice is between a financial and social meltdown with Labour and
    Remaining in the EU with an ever more leftward Tory party.
    Yesterday my MP, ( in the last Parliament ed)Guy Opperman, was on Twitter, campaigning 40 miles away in Bishop Auckland, in a Labour seat with a useless MP, Helen Goodman.
    (Btw, obviously Guy is taking his large majority in this safe seat for granted, probably correctly. Why does he have a safer seat than you? It definitely is not based on ability) .
    By doing so, with no chance of a Tory win, he is quite obviously working there, rather than his own patch, in order to stop The Brexit Party winning. Further proof that the Tories are working against a party committed to leaving the EU, which Boris says he wants.
    Together with the stage managed MEP defection, this abysmal new treaty and the Tories standing Remain-Tory candidates, the only conclusion which can be drawn is that we are remaining in the EU.
    The Leave population is mystified as to why the Tories are working against BXP. Wonder no more. They are terrified of the Brexit Party in Parliament, and rightly so. Party before country.
    If Labour was not now Momentum, with people such as Flint & Burnham fronting it, this woeful Tory campaign by “tactical genius” Cummings (I see no evidence of this genius) would be badly trailing any half decent opposition.
    Start learning German.

    • Stred
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:55 am | Permalink

      The selfish determination to destroy the BP above the Marxists in Labour and the SNP will likely lead to disaster, just as May’s personal agenda in 2017. Boris should have taken Donald’s advice. Whoever forms a government and then welches on the clear promises in the referendum will face the fury and resistance of half of the electorate.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

        Yes, but alas it will be too late. There is no exit clause to the new treaty.

        • old salt
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

          Mark-B
          But it (the exit clause) didn’t work for the old one and I fear it will not until we have sufficient committed Leave MP’s in parliament.

          Article is said to be a trap and so it has proved. Just look up who commissioned and agreed to it.

          Johnny Dubb
          “that we are remaining in the EU.”

          Why not just repeal the European Economic Communities Act 1972 if serious about leaving?

  15. Anonymous
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Look.

    Both Remainers and the BBC (Left wing media) have made me (white working class Dad) the #1 enemy in the UK.

    I even feature in one multi-culti festive ad having a zip put across my mouth.

    Andy may well find out what happens when I stop voting responsibly.

    Well done ! You’ve managed to turn this erstwhile Thatcher voter into one who doesn’t care if socialists get in. In fact quite liking the idea. (Though one would never vote for it.)

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      I’m a white father from a working background.

      Your main point is ridiculous.

      Do stop with this endless victimhood pleading.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

        Every other grouping (Muslim, black, trans) is treated with great sensitivity – not told ‘… stop with this endless victimhood’.

        All I’m going to do is stop voting.

        Let the students take charge.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 8:22 am | Permalink

          We have equality laws.

          All of this self-centred whingeing, be it by majorities or by minorities, should stop forthwith.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

      I sympathise.

    • steve
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

      Anon

      “Andy may well find out what happens when I stop voting responsibly.”

      Quite possibly. But do bear in mind that on some of the things he says he is absolutely right. Same for Martin in Cardiff.

      One thing that does unite us is the understanding that politicians have been conning us all, regardless of their political bent.

      None of them can be trusted, and now more than any other time people are wising up to their lies and trickery.

      Things will change, and for the better. However I believe the country needs to be broken first, it’s the only way to drain the swamp.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

        I think you’re right that only crisis will bring change. Clearly this Brexit crisis of the last three and a half years was not grave enough. The pity is that even as and when there is such a crisis I cannot see how this country will take advantage of it. Cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman perhaps)? Maybe.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

        Who is Martyn in Cardiff ?

        😉

    • Andy
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

      What a silly comment. Why would I think you are public enemy number 1?

      I come from a working class background. I grew up on an estate. I went to a rubbish school. I was the first in my family to go to university and I got lucky with careers and business. My background is probably no different to yours.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

        I didn’t go to university. I didn’t get lucky with careers and business (I do not resent this though am gladdened when others have) but I am part of an enfranchised majority that is working class (which you are not) and you have been most careless to insult me over and over and for you not to expect there to be consequences.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

      Who is Andy ?

      😉

      • NickC
        Posted December 9, 2019 at 9:40 am | Permalink

        Mark B, Someone with a very variable legend, which seems to depend on the issue he is polemicising.

  16. Fred H
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    The choice in this election should be simple. Vote for a clean break and Leave the EU as was expected in 2016, or continue the fudge under Boris, or worse still abandon all hope and withdraw from leaving. Sir John you try to switch thinking from Leave or Remain to Conservative (new version) versus Momentum portrayed as Labour. It doesn’t wash I’m afraid.

  17. Edwardm
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Corbyn makes it a very simple choice – he thinks Venezuela is a good example of socialism, he is friends with supporters of terrorists who kill British people, he presides over an anti-Semitic party, his thugs prevent the PM from speaking, he wants unlimited immigration, and Labour want to undo Brexit. He offers “free” bribes to the gullible yet attacks aspiration and success.
    There is nothing that suggests Corbyn and his henchmen have any real interest in the wellbeing and safety of British people.
    Even more worrying is that large numbers of people say they will vote Labour, and with all the more bad news about Corbyn and Labour, their vote share goes up, utterly illogical.
    If the polls are a guide, I cannot understand why so many people want to vote for the ruination of their own country.
    Clearly the only choice is Conservative, and for a positive can-do PM in Boris.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      That’s up to you mate. Your endorsement of BJ and these Tories speaks for itself. Perhaps your cage is a gilded one.

      • Edwardm
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

        I have no gilded cage.
        I have a total aversion to what Corbyn’s friends do.
        I wish for a clean Brexit.
        In these perilous times I am glad to endorse the Conservative party.

        • Simeon
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

          We can agree on Corbyn’s friends. I don’t know what your idea of a clean Brexit is, but voting for the ‘positive, can-do’ BJ is certainly wishful. The times are indeed perilous, in very large part because of the Conservative party. They’re a big part of the problem, and definitely not the solution.

    • Richard1
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

      Exactly

  18. Kevin
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    However one may package it, it boils down to this: if we knowingly vote for the Withdrawal Agreement we will all have done the same thing that Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg did in MV3 – we will have backed down. Three and a half years after the courageous decision to ignore “Project Fear” and vote for a clean-break, Leave the EU Brexit, and to “fund our NHS instead” (as the famous bus sign read), the EU will have got the British electorate to consent to EU legislative authority over us (Arts. 4 and 127, WA), judicial authority over us (Arts. 160 and 174), subservience to their foreign policy (Art. 129(6)), and, it seems, their continued access to our fisheries (Clause 72, PD) – all while, as I understand it, our children and our children’s children will be obliged to contribute annually to EU pensions into the 2060s. The 300 Spartans did not win at Thermopylae, but they did the right thing by their country – and Europe.

    • Shirley
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:25 am | Permalink

      Well said, Kevin. Democracy has again been sidelined by only offering us Remain, or Brino. ‘Leave’ is no longer an option among the mainstream parties despite the biggest democratic vote in UK history. The truth will out, eventually, but politicians don’t care, because the opposition is just as bad, or worse.

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

        Shirley

        “The truth will out, eventually, but politicians don’t care, because the opposition is just as bad, or worse.”

        Yes one day the truth will out, however politicians don’t care because they think they’ve got away with it.

        Theresa May, for example will find it impossible to convince anyone that the WA she brought to Chequers was anything other than the EU’s work to cripple and punish this country for daring to leave.

        She’ll have her name at the top of the sh*! list, followed by Johnson, Benn et al.

        The sad thing is if any of them had the guts to come clean and expose what the EU was up to, we’d have been by their side through hell and high water. Instead they gave us cover up of their pantomime, charade, lies and treason.

        Some day we’ll have a gladiator running this country, and when we do there’ll be a bad moon on the rise for these con merchants that’s for sure.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

      Conscientious objection is the only noble option for leavers. How one votes, or whether one votes at all, is the preserve of each individual conscience. There is no leave platform to get behind. Leavers have been divided and conquered with the connivance of the leave politicians, from Farage down (though in Nigel’s case it was at least unwitting).

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

        Simeon

        “Leavers have been divided and conquered with the connivance of the leave politicians, from Farage down”

        Yep, that’s the truth of it.

  19. Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    As ever a concise summation. Nevertheless you consistently argue about a second referendum which is precisely what your party strategists are doing, get Brexit done with the Tories against the alternatives is Boris’ cut through message.

    Corbyn has outflanked you on the NHS, corporate excess as a justification for re nationalisation, especially the railways, very popular and the 4 day week and 5% pay increases.

    We know the Labour Party run out of other people’s money yet I am not hearing that from Boris. A picture of the note left in the Treasury when Brown departed along the lines of ‘there is no money left’ should be sent out on social media to remind people.

    It was always ‘the economy, stupid!’ that won elections, you have chosen Brexit. I hope you are right. The polls showing the gap tightening indicate voters may not agree.

  20. Alec
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Never have I been more depressed by the quality of the candidates for election. We have a choice between outright Marxism and big, nanny state, socialism with a soft Brexit. Now longer a case of lions led by donkeys, now it’s sheep led by wolves.

  21. Everhopeful
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    I wonder if the tories understand how they have been manipulated by the Left?
    Not only in allowing them to set the political agenda but in allowing NHS, education etc to be run by them..and used as their own personal echo chambers.
    Generous benefits also allow the hard left the time for political organisation. It is difficult to muster supporters slightly right of Che Guevara ( since the Tories have scuppered the true Right) when they have to get up to catch the 7.45 the next morning!

  22. formula57
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Per remarks (as best I can recall) some decade ago by Thatcher era cabinet minister Lord Young the challenge in 1979 was that the economy was broken whereas the challenge in 2010 was that society was broken.

    Society has not been repaired and Government action has not helped much. Mr. Corbyn has often connected, perhaps by chance, with the dissatisfaction that flows in consequence and while not proposing workable solutions does nonetheless point to where action is needed. Should it be given the chance, your party might do well to make a start in addressing the challenge identified by Lord Young.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:29 am | Permalink

      The difference between 1979 and 2010 is that government of 1979 saw state intervention as the problem not the solution. Good business were being taxed to keep bad business’s going.

  23. Original Richard
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    I’m terrified by Labour’s wish to “extend freedom of movement” and to give the vote to all UK residents, irrespective of nationality.

    Especially when we have no official records of who is resident in the UK, no records of who comes in and leaves, no voter ID, no curb on the use of postal votes and “homeless” voters can now register their address at a willing pub or café.

    • Andy
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

      Why are you scared about it? The wonderful thing about free movement is that it has proved beyond any doubt that the vast majority of people do not want to come here.

      Genuinely – how does other people coming here affect your life? The answer is that it doesn’t.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

        500,000 new people coming here every year cannot be dissmissed as just “some people”
        We need a new city the size of Southampton to be built every year to cope.

        • bill brown
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

          Edward2

          you forgot about 300.000 leave as well

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

        Andy, You used to claim that we controlled our borders. Now you say free movement is wonderful. Make your mind up. My grandfather was an immigrant. Both my wife’s parents were immigrants. But England in particular has not got room for a billion new migrants, or even 15 million.

        Too many immigrants deleteriously affect the entire infrastructure of the country – schools, roads, hospitals, etc. Too many immigrants swamp the native culture and ethnicity. A nation needs to be reasonably integrated to survive. And nations are the best bulwark to protect democracy, free speech and free enterprise.

        • bill brown
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

          NickC

          you are sailing very close to the wind with you ethnicity talk , be very careful as most of it is nonsense.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

        Because only a selective few come to Beaconsfield.

        That will change under Corbyn.

  24. steve
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    JR:

    “The choice in this election is simple – Corbyn or Conservatives in government”

    So, it’s Corbyn to destroy the country, or Conservatives to surrender to the EU via May’s capitulation document.

    This is blackmail Mr Redwood, pure and simple . Did you and your fellow tories actually think we’d not see through this ?

    It doesn’t matter how you dress it, blackmail is what it is.

    We also know the source of this blackmail is the EU. It is becoming obvious to an increasing number of people that Mrs May was in fact doing the EU’s bidding all along. Boris is doing the very same, in the naive belief that we will fail to realise the inside of that thing he has polished is in fact the same turd May brought to Chequers.

    Same ‘turd’, as he himself described it…..but with a new salesman. Do you really think we’d fall for that one ?

    Some choice we are being offered, personally I don’t yield to blackmail, which is why I shall be calling your party’s bluff and voting Labour – just to stop you and your kind in your tracks.

    You can shove your choice mate, we always have our choice – which is the principle to walk away from a bad deal.

    Nobody, and I mean nobody, holds me over a barrel. I hope all this backfires on the Conservatives, because when it does they’ll never be in government again and rightly so.

    Your party should have been making a stand against this country’s enemies, not trying to force us into accepting servitude by threatening us with Corbyn.

    Shove your so-called choice.

    • James Bertram
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:46 am | Permalink

      Steve – I enjoyed this comment which very much echoes my own thoughts – so much so that I copied it on today’s BrexitFacts4EU comments (see link at top of page). I hope that is OK.

      A big Thank You from me.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 11:50 am | Permalink

      Hear hear.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

      It would help if you would identify whom you believe to be the country’s enemies, Steve.

      I think that you might be mistaken.

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

        Martin, Your evil corrupt EU empire is certainly an enemy of our nation.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

          Only people can be evil or corrupt.

          Who are they?

          The twenty-eight leaders of the nations in the European Council, its supreme authority?

          Our elected MEPs to whom the Commission answer?

          Or the half a billion people in it?

          Where is your evidence for your silly claim?

        • bill brown
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 9:17 am | Permalink

          NickC

          It is not an empire/

          Rome was an empire

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        “It would help if you would identify whom you believe to be the country’s enemies, Steve”

        Already tried that……not allowed.

      • Andy
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

        It would be quicker if you asked him to identify those he does not consider enemies. I suspect he uses the term enemy to describe anyone with whom he may disagree on any issue.

        • steve
          Posted December 8, 2019 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          “I suspect he uses the term enemy to describe anyone with whom he may disagree on any issue.”

          Not at all Andy, the aspersion you cast is inappropriate.

          From some of the things you have said on here one might conclude you see anyone of pensionable age as a public enemy of the first order. So I don’t think you’re in a position to be calling anyone out.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

      Strong stuff, can’t disagree.

    • John Finn
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

      What drivel. The deal is not perfect but it’s not bad. There is a clear exit route out of the EU. Furthermore the eventual agreement could be close to what I would have wished for when I voted to leave.

      That aside, the rest of the comment is delusional rubbish. Steve says ” Did you and your fellow tories actually think we’d not see through this?”

      And what are you going to do about it, Steve. The combined Tory + Brexit Party vote is about 46%. About a FIFTH of those are Tories who voted to remain. The Leave vote is fractured and is not fully behind any party. We knew this last May. The EU elections were hailed as a resounding success for the Brexit Party. They were nothing of the sort. The Brexit Party, despite all the fanfare, did slightly better than UKIP in 2014. The May EU elections remember were just a few weeks after the ‘March 29th Brexit betrayal’. At least 12 million leaave voters couldn’t even be bothered to get off their backsides for 10 minutes to register a protest vote.

      But Steve is going to “see it through”. Don’t make me laugh. You take a chnce on the Tories or Brexit is over – for good.

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

        John Finn

        “And what are you going to do about it, Steve.”

        Already told you : do the opposite of what these blackmailing con merchants want – vote Labour.

        Try reading posts fully, not just the bits you want.

      • NickC
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

        John Flinn, If you want to vote Conservative, that’s fine, there are plenty of sound reasons to do so. But the Boris WA is not one of them. The truth is that his WA is a treaty under which the EU controls the UK as much as it does now.

        You claim a low percentage (46%) for Leave without taking into account the Leave voters from Labour, LibDem, Green and other parties. However you are right that the Leave vote is fractured. That is the advantage of a single issue binary referendum – it gives a true answer to one issue.

        What you fail to address is that if we keep voting for parties that cheat us out of Leave – whichever parties they are – we only encourage the politicians to think we have rolled over.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

        Seems you’re in a minority, at least in these parts.

    • Hope
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

      Well said.

    • Jon Reade
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

      The problem is sadly that most of the Sheeple haven’t seen through it and we will continue with this pseudo democracy indefinitely.

    • Richard1
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

      I assume this post must be from some momentum troll seeking to present a caricature of a brexit voter and encourage voting for the Brexit party.

      • steve
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

        Richard1

        Do me a favour. Farage’s party is an irrelevance, just as UKIP turned out to be.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

        steve is more than capable of defending himself, but I will lend my support.

        He understands the situation. You don’t. He is therefore a genuine leaver. You are not. Either that, or you’re a CCHQ wannabe. Probably both in fact. It is extremely poor for you to question the sincerity of a guy who, as a longstanding contributor yourself, you will surely have noticed is consistent in his analyses and criticisms, shared by many contributors here. But of course, you too have been consistent in your pushing of party propaganda. This puts your comments into their proper context.

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

      +1

      Tories love choice when it comes to others but not themselves – so off with the Brexit Party.

  25. Sue W
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    “The difference with the Corbyn plans is they are so extreme we would get to the economic crisis more quickly were his programme to be attempted.” – that may not be a bad thing as we would become a net recipient from the EU rather than a major contributor and they might be happy to let us go. That aside, the Tories are unforgivably responsible for Theresa May’s too long reign and I will have no part in sharing the responsibility for Boris’s deal, which, in my view, will be worse than anything else. In the absence of a Brexit Party Candidate, I will vote for an independent candidate.

  26. Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    There is only one issue at this election, Brexit, and nobody is offering that!

  27. Helen Smith
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Labour and Lib Dems run nasty smear campaigns every time. I have also had three times as much crap from the laughingly called Lib Dems as I have from any other party, where are they getting the money from?

  28. Bob Dixon
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    We have missed a great opportunity to replace the candidates who sat in the last parliament with candidates who can respond to the countries need. For forty years parliaments role has been to rubber stamp the orders of the eu
    From the 9th of December MP’s will be in charge.Are any of the returning MP’s up to the task. Very many will not be up to it.

  29. Original Richard
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    The choice at this GE is not between parties (Conservative and Labour) but between those who support democracy against those unelected forces who wish to overturn the biggest democratic vote in the UK’s history.

    The whole world is watching to see if we are still a democracy where TPTB implement as promised the democratic decision made by the people of the UK in the 2016 EU referendum

  30. Lester Beedell
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    So many highly improbable results being bandied about, unfortunately social media enables everyone to become an armchair pundit, let’s just pray for a healthy Tory majority and let’s put this issue to bed!
    One disturbing aspect of this Election is the sheer nastiness of some of the participants, ID-S having his campaign headquarters vandalised, I’ve always taken a great interest in politics and this would have been unthinkable in the 60’s
    It goes without saying that Channel 4 and the Brussels broadcasting corporation need a serious review, why should the BBC tax us and spew out left wing propaganda?

  31. ian
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Can’t wait for another Tory party leadership election starting in Jan 2020.

  32. Posted December 8, 2019 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    So it seems from reading this far, that the majority of us are sickened by what we see in Parliament.
    We dislike the situation presented to us, there is sadly no choice, this is anything but Democracy.
    It matters not who you vote for, you will be given the combined Treachery of the ruling classes.the EU will be with you , cradle too the grave.
    Other Countries should look to this, and make damn sure they hang on to there Democricy.

    The Tragedy here is that the best man and the only party that could have given our Nation back has sadly been too decent , he trusted Johnson to play fair, and they probably did not have enough cash to fund over 600 possible MPS

    • Simeon
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

      Funding may well have been an issue. Finding good candidates certainly was. A far better approach would have been to sustain criticism of the BJ Treaty whilst fighting a few dozen seats. BJ was never an ally and never could be. To believe he might be was a serious error of judgement, the consequences of which we can all clearly see; the BP have marginalised themselves, and confidence in their ability to break through has evaporated. Very disappointing.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

        The problem with the BXP is that it is stuffed full of disaffected Tories. They did not like May but prefer Johnson. That’s the difference.

        • Simeon
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 6:51 am | Permalink

          The problem is that they weren’t diaffected enough. In fact, it would seem that their disaffection was purely superficial. The same conclusion can be drawn about the ERG types; dismayed by May, but happy with Boris. When JRM claimed he had no problem with the leader but only the policy, it was, clearly in hindsight, a barefaced lie.

        • Fred H
          Posted December 9, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

          Mark – – ‘The problem with the BXP is that it is stuffed full of disaffected Tories’.

          A problem? or a natural conclusion from events over say the last 10 years?

  33. steve
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Well Mr Redwood

    Judging by the sentiment on here it would seem your party’s threatening us with the prospect of Corbyn is about to backfire.

    Obviously Mr Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson doesn’t seem to understand we Brits are not known for surrendering.

  34. Anonymous
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    BBC banging on about Facebook being anti democratic but the reason social media has taken a lead is that such as the BBC can no longer be trusted to be impartial.

    EVERYONE is now talking about it. For a while I really thought it was just me.

    It is in-your-face leftism and PC.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

      Since the dawn of Radio the BBC has held sway. It has used its position of trusted news outlet to peddle lies and has got away with it because there has been little effective competition. Now we have the internet and social media such as this place. Their grip has been loosened.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 9, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

        The Board of Governors of the BBC used to ensure a broad coverage of news, and bias was examined and removed. Times have changed, the BBC Trust ran for 10 years, before being dissolved. The BBC has come under fire from Ofcom after a report has emerged suggesting the corporation’s political coverage isn’t fair and equal enough, as it chooses to give “extreme” voices more airtime.

  35. Irene
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    My comments may not go down well with y0u, JR, or with any of the contenders in the glamour contest we are required to call a GE. As you know by now, I despise the language that has been used and the way that everyone seems to feel the need to slag off their opponents, so I will with or without permission use a few of the words that I wish had never been introduced.

    Today, for the first time in my life, I cooked and served up guinea fowl. With roasted veg. With hints of lemon and herbs. A splash of white wine (optional). Never tasted something so delightful before, and all home cooked by me. I adapted a recipe to suit me and to suit what I envisaged others might enjoy.

    No sign of anything ‘oven-ready’. No hint of ‘stuff’ or stuffing. Not one thing that had ever been ‘on the back burner’ or ‘obiter dicta’ or ‘rehashed’ or ‘regurgitated’ appeared (as far as I am aware), and I didn’t have a week to think about it either, so absolutely no dithering on my part. Spontaneously new and delicious.

    All plates cleared, which really made me think about the junk that has been served up over recent months, and years. Nothing new. No new flavours. Not one hint of anything attractive or attracting to the senses. Just the same unappetising oft-used menus and recipes.

    Is it any wonder so many of us are bored to tears with the dehydrated, pre-packaged, over-done junk food with which we are being force-fed?

  36. bookend
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Did Trump build the wall? Well to the same extent neither of these two Boris or Corbyn types will be up to doing not even one tenth of what they are promising. It’s all about power..just for themselves..they don’t care one iota about the people

  37. Serves them right
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    A Corbyn /SNP government would serve the greater British people right and particularly the Scottish people. Things have to happen to tribal societies where its very existence is dependent on tribal values. It is time for this tribalism to materialise in full force and the tribes suffer for being so moronic

    • Mark B
      Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

      This is what happened in 1979. People just had enough ! They wanted change and got it !

  38. Time's Eye
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Bojo’s victory will be a paste-over job of true Brexit. It may work for a time.
    But the underlying reason for the Leave vote was the imposed immigration. Nothing has changed, nothing has changed.
    We’ll see what will happen. It looks from the onset grim.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted December 9, 2019 at 12:33 am | Permalink

      Sadly I agree.

      Our political elite are destroying the country.

      No sign of the pragmatic views of the decent majority.

  39. Judge Dread
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Two figures will stick out in history books of the UK one hundred years hence. Bercow and the lady who headed the Supreme Court.
    I have n idea how they will be seen and judged.

    • Posted December 8, 2019 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

      I have!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 9, 2019 at 3:43 am | Permalink

      I judge both very badly indeed expecially the dire Bercow – thank goodness this man has gone. But the supreme court was unanimous. All eleven justices clearly inventing new law and acting very politically indeed which is highly dangerous. Hopefully Boris with have a majority large enough to address this problem. But history is generally written by the victors.

      A further problem is that lawyers, as a group (like actors, celebs, bbc reporters, academics, health sector workers, teachers, accountants) have certain “group thinks” and traits. So you get warped judgements often totally at odd with the wishes and interests of the people. I doubt if a single one of these 11 Justices was in favour of Brexit, had they been they would have been very unlikely to have been appointed. Yet the population in general was 52% pro Brexit probably higher still now. The justices are selected by a group of senior lawyers, the Lord Chancellor, then the PM. So of course they are likely to all be remainers the system virtually ensures group think.

      To a man with a hammer everything starts to look like a nail. To a lawyer all problems seem to demand more law and more lawyers. Judges always seem to want more powerful, law inventing, judges. They do not want to rule on laws made by others who are elected – they want to invent news ones. They think only they know best. Despite their limited backgrounds and experience of life. Nearly all will be privately educated, then Oxbridge, little understanding of business, economics or science, swotty types and with top law degrees. The are totally unrepresentative of the population in general.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 9, 2019 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

        and operate within a strict protectionist framework, for wonderful compensation. The law is an ass ( but a handsomely paid one).

  40. Mark Nottingham
    Posted December 8, 2019 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    I can not bring myself to vote conservative probably ever again. Fortunately this time I have a Brexit party candidate to vote for. I would not vote Labour either but if you are so inclined to vote Labour so close to Christmas please remember that it’s not just any Labour party it’s an M & S Labour party (Marxist & Socialist).

  41. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted December 9, 2019 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Hopefully, the Corbyn nightmare will be banished on Thursday. Then we can get back to discussing what Conservative policy ought to be, although a lot will have been dictated by our manifesto.

    My key issue: How do we guarantee that the Brexit transition period will not last beyond the end of 2020, as promised by both Mr Johnson and Mr Gove?

  42. Us
    Posted December 9, 2019 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    And I’ve kept a dog after dog for quite a time. Too well fed. Spoilt of course. An absolute health necessity for a range of reasons not completely understood by the NHS. We need dogs.
    We don’t need moaners in the NHS. Their time will come. They will not like it when the truth strikes home. I know they can out drink me. Look down in pity. Sometimes in arrogant “Oh we thought you earned as much as us ” 🙁
    No £5,000 per year less than their basics with all the overtime I was allowed to work. They did not guess for two years. I seemed to have adequate money. I did.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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