The EU elite are on manoeuvres again. They really really want military power, so the EU can walk the world stage and stalk the world’s corridors of power backed by the ability to intervene militarily wherever they wish. We should not encourage them.
EU countries have more men and women in arms than the USA, but cannot exert this power for lack of heavy lift, lack of a large enough surface navy and enough transport planes. Relatively poorly armed troops are also relatively immobile. They can be sent by train or lorry to a small war in Europe, but find it much more difficult to exert influence on other continents.
The UK still has an important navy and airforce, despite the cuts. The UK has some expeditionary capacity to work alongside the US and other UN powers in conflicts well beyond Europe. The EU would dearly love to enmesh this, and the nuclear capability of the country, into its plans for a wider European force. I could think of nothing worse. The last thing the world needs is a new juvenile superpower trying out its new powers to intervene. It is going to be difficult enough watching the US and China size each other up and develop a new relationship as China’s economic and military power waxes. The EU will not spend enough on weaponry and military technology to catch up with the USA, but it is intent on making a noise by putting the unbalanced forces of the member states under a new bureaucracy.
June 6, 2008
‘No’ to the Euro Army? The word ‘no’ is not in the vocabulary of the EU-elite. An EU Army is therefore an inevitable consequence of an EU state, which is after all, the entire purpose of the European Project. For as long as we are in the EU, we’d better get used to the idea.
With the Lisbon Treaty set to clear its remaining hurdles next week (immersed in the chaff of the 42-day detention debate), can we expect an imminent Conservative policy announcement on a post-ratification referendum (and thus possible abrogation of the treaty) should David Cameron be sworn in as our next Provincial Governor?
June 6, 2008
Very good analysis and 100% correct.
June 6, 2008
While I agree with sentiments, John, there really isn't a lot of point arguing anymore. We ruled by the EU and that's that and what we have to say is no longer irrelevant
June 6, 2008
* I meant relevant
June 6, 2008
David Hannah has perhaps not seen the latest polling data from Ireland – it now looks as if the Irish may save the World at least in the short term from an even more rampant EU.
Doubtless if the Irish do say No to the referendum, their government will try, try, try again until they get the desired answer. However, that may allow time for DC to give us our rightful vote on the Treaty after the next General Election. Fingers crossed – but if DC were to let us down on that his days in power would surely be numbered!
June 6, 2008
You've spotted the weakness in their proposal. Military force is not primarily, if it ever was, about numbers, but about technological capability. Add to that thet any EU army is going to be suffering from so many duplications & political interference not from government but from 26 governments, that it will be immobile.
If the EU really wanted a military capacity (& I hope nobody there reads you) they should go for an EU force in a cutting edge area where they would not have to shoulder aside existing national armies. Space or computer war would be the obvious areas (as China is proving). Even a europewide airforce would make sense since modern fighters cannot get up to full speed within the airspace of many countries.
The same argument applies to the UK. Our island status may not be ase useful as in the 18thC but it still does help us against conventional invasion. If we put our defence budget into enabling us to project air power anywhere in the world (or indeed space power in the form of satellites or the Thor system) it would give us more influence with less chance of getting bogged down in geurilla wars than putting it into conventional forces.
June 6, 2008
Cameron is Pro EU, that is why he is so cagey about what he will do with the Treaty if the Consevatives win.
Brown has to stay on ( by his fingernails ) until ratification, the EuGenderfor are ready for any riots in Britain.
Personally I'm hoping the Generals will Kick the door in.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
Reply: David Cameron is pledged to reduce the EU's powers over the UK
June 6, 2008
Frankly with NO camp taking the lead in Irish polls with less than a week before a referendum on the Lisbon treaty I am somewhat amazed the EU is bringing this up now giving Irish sensitivities about neutrality.
This EU army plan is the thin end of a wedge. The UK should not get involved providing defence guarantees to Continental countries without US support. There is no reason to believe such guarantees would be no more effective than those provided to Poland in 1939. Nor would we be getting anything worthwhile in return from EU partners who either lack effective military capability or have simply never proven their reliability in times of crisis in the way the Americans have.
Personally I would like to see Continental countries given a hard choice between NATO membership and participation in this EU army. Those who desire to decouple the Americans from the security of Europe cannot be regarded as reliable allies in my opinion so I would prefer them not to hold vetoes in NATO decision-making forums. Once the EU capability is set up we can expect them to paralyse NATO action such that the EU is the only organisation in a position to act.
June 6, 2008
Like Mr. Hannah I too think that the EU Army will appear, the colleagues do as they wish to establish their state. We know, of course, that they want the British resources to be able to carry it out. the "government" have sacrificed our "Constitution" in favour of the EU but the services take an oath to the Sovereign. It must be stopped, even though your leader "doesn't do Europe", he must now front up.
June 6, 2008
I generally agree with your article but why do you make the common mistake of assuming that the next bit superpower will be China.
India already has greater force projection capability than China. There are rumours that India will shortly be purchasing a decommisioned US aircraft carrier which will ensure that the capability gap between it and China will increase. India's high tech sector is also highly developed which will only enhance its defence R&D capabilities.
June 6, 2008
If David Cameron starts spouting off about Europe, the Conservatives can kiss good bye to the next election.
But war is a time when brutal truths emerge.
The EU is not a country and people will not die for it.
The provision of materiel is beset by monumental corruption and inefficiency.
France, with its Napoleonic/Gaullist and Vietnamese/Algerian heritage, has a radically different approach to world politics to Germany (pacifist) and Poland (what DO they think?) (sentence left out suggesting Italy is not warlike) The Spanish were NOT in favour of the attack on Iraq – I was there. Would they fight?
Add in a lot of immigrants to every single European country and who knows what will happen if a new Mussolini of Europe declares war on another country?
Meanwhile our alliance with Australia, Canada, USA and other anglophone countries is as firm as ever. They would fight for us – and we would fight for them too.
God save the Queen!
June 6, 2008
I see Russia as the biggest threat in the future. Decades down the line, the new EU states may be in the single currency and face their first financial crisis as member states, one they have no control over. Nationalist oppositions and Russian sympathisers in the East could be courted by Mother Russia to revolt against the rival EU and join a resurgent expansionist Russian superpower. Civil war could break out.
I can see the logic in an EU army to prevent this from happening and defend out border with Russia (and possibly the Middle East in the future), but see no reason why we should bother joining in. Our defences are sured up by our NATO membership, being and Island and our high-tech military.
June 6, 2008
I hate to say it but I'm inclined towards AP's view @ 2.58pm simply because things seem so out of control now. David Cameron may be 'pledged' to reduce the EU's power over Great Britain and N Ireland, but:
(1) Manifesto pledges are worthless – vis the Court case against the Labour Party when it was established that pledges are not a promise or a commitment.
(2) Freeborn John, the EU has not deliberately brought this up – it was leaked in order to tell those who weren't already aware of EuroPol & EuroGendFor.
When will DC speak out and tell the truth about the EU? Things are bad here, but it looks like they're going to be an awful lot worse when the LT is ratified. The Conservative Party must stand for us. the people. If not, as AP says, the Generals will kick the door in. One can only vote and hope.
June 6, 2008
Addressing a meeting in Harlow, in Essex, Mr Cameron admitted it would be "almost impossible" to have a referendum on the Treaty if it was already law in the UK and the rest of Europe.
He added: "We may have to say, well look, we're not happy with this situation, here are some of the powers we'd like to have back.
"But we can't give you that referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it's already been put in place across the rest of Europe."
Cameron, the Heir to Blair.
EU scepticism looks good in opposition and is a vote winner. The Tories are as trustworthy as the other two parties.
No way can I vote for your party now.
Reply: Mr Cameron went on to say in that event he would be demanding powers back from Brussels.
June 6, 2008
Ian Evans, I have indeed seen the latest polling data from Ireland, but let's be honest here. While it would be most satisfying to see the Irish raise two fingers towards our political masters, the judgement of the Irish electors will be as meaningful as that delivered by their French and Dutch predecessors (or the original Irish Nice Treaty vote for that matter). Democracy has never been allowed to derail the 'project', and they don't intend to start letting it do so now. These cretins do not seek a democratic mandate for what they're doing; the Irish referendum is a constitutional anomaly: an obstacle to be overcome, and it will be. The 'colleagues' always get their way.
The EU Commission may claim that there is no plan B for an Irish rejection, but that's simply because they intend to force Plan A down our throats repeatedly until we swallow it. You may have noticed that several elements of the original EU Constitution (and subsequently the Treaty of Lisbon) have already been implemented, such as the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the European External Action Service (their flag will soon fly over the former Conservative Central Office). Does anyone think these creations will be undone after a 'no' vote?
The only way to avoid an EU Army is to get out of the EU: a truth that none of the main parties are willing to face.
June 6, 2008
Ian Evans,
Do you really mean if he lets us down, did you mean to say when ?
from The Guardian.
"Cameron wins over Harlow with town hall-style meeting
………the first questioner, a middle-aged woman told him. "Will you give the whole country the benefit of a referendum on the EU constitution?"
He would if he could, he told her. But were it to prove impossible, because other states had already ratified it, he would nevertheless fight to get powers back from Brussels."
That will be a No then Dave ?
John, you have a touching faith in your leader's 'pledge', I seem to remember a 'pledge' that you would be leaving the EPP, don't you ?
Reply: Yes, and we are leaving the EPP – no Conservative candidiate at the next EU election will be able to support the EPP
June 7, 2008
Cameron is Pledged to reduce the Powers of the EU.
He can't be, Conservative and Labour central Offices have conspired since at least the 70's to fool the electorate about the final intentions of the EEC / EU.
Heath said it was a trade agreement, no loss of essential sovereignty, this was a Lie.
The EU has it's constitution, a flag, a national anthem.
Brown / Straw are saying we do not have a Constitution when in fact we do. http://thejournal.parker-joseph.co.uk/blog/_archi…
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/freedom/f_your_ow…
Hundreds of thousands of Men and women died to protect our country, our Liberty, our Sovereignty, heritage & culture yet within a few yrs of the end of WWII Labour and Conservative MP's were Plotting to surrender our Country to a Federal Europe.
Mass Immigration is part of this agenda, to eradicate National Identity.
Along with 6 Million abortions and a plan to sterilise only British schoolgirls.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/ne…
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
Arnold Toynbee summed it up best.
We are at present working discreetly, but with all our might, to wrest this mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local national states of the world. And all the time we are denying with our lips what we are doing with our hands'
Kenneth clarke is on record as saying he looks forward to the time when westminster is but a minor council chamber of Europe.
He also talks about the Post Democratic era.
As I understand it the EU is a foreign power and our Sovereignty is being surrendered, which is against Magna carta, the Bill of rights.
Blair repealed the treason laws by slipping in the repeal into an act that was on its way for Royal ascent.
If we already Have a Constitution ( smaller than the EU ConstiTraityTution ) Why is Brown and Straw saying we Don't and why are they changing our Laws into those of a Police state, Double Jeopardy, trial by Jury, Habeaus Corpus, 42 – 90 day detention without charge.
It is someones Legal duty to stop this using ALL necesary means.
June 7, 2008
Although a bleeding heart liberal, I cannot see how a standing army with powers of conscription which can turn it into a citizen self-defence force can be transformed into a multi-national outfit under centralised command.
The British armed forces are de-politicised by being loyal not to any political figure or ex-politico like a president but the Queen, so every time there is a big change of government they do not all leap into their tanks and head for London.Many of the big national institutions have the monarch as head,so creating a very useful separation of powers.
The problem with a European army is that it will increase politicisation to the point where soldiers start saying " I did n't join up to serve under this lot "and start up the half- track engines.
June 7, 2008
I am somewhat amused to hear that Mr Cameron will "demand" changes from the EU. Delusions of grandeur perhaps?
As I understand it, he is what we would have called, within the Conservative Party, a pro European.
JR, you were a Euro sceptic but, you seldom reply to, or agree with, issues raised by bloggers on here on topics that I remember being your position in the past, that go against Mr Cameron's view.
I accept that you have said it does not help to go against your leader's view, however if that attitude is adopted, we become no better than Mr Blair's administration. Every one selling their traditional principles just to hang on to power and accepting things that were completely against the bedrock policies of the party in order to court the support of the centre.
I know that many politicians say that elections are won on the centre ground but, was Mrs Thatcher, arguably the greatest PM of all time, on the centre ground? No, she fought the election on simple commonsense policies that put our national interest first.
Many people in this country are very worried about further integration in to a USSR style super state, if we wanted a communist/socialist government or state, we would have voted for one. The Labour government know full well that we would reject the EU treaty/constitution if we were given a vote on it, so they deny us one. Where is the democracy in that?
It is about time that an alternative to the EUSSR was championed by those of us that are to the right of the current Conservative leader. That used to be your position, is it still your position or have you sold out to Cameronism?
I bet the EU are as happy as anything with the new religion of climate change as they can adopt soviet style policies to control the population of our country, something they could never do through military means…….Why aren't we fighting for the future of our nation? I signed up to a trading agreement under Mr Heath in the 1970s, not a socialist super state. Where is the pride in our national identity now that kept us free from states like the one the EUSSR is becoming?
Reply: No I have not sold out and not changed my principles. Any reader of what I write can see I disapprove of European government and want power back in the UK to govern ourselves. The best way I can see of starting that journey is to vote Cameron. All other options that might get elected entail further moves in the federalist direction. I want a referendum because I think the British people are more sensible and trustworthy on the EU issue than most of their elected politicians. It's a pity you did not join us in 1975 in voting No, when No would have meant NO.
June 7, 2008
"Reply: Mr Cameron went on to say in that event he would be demanding powers back from Brussels"
I wish he had said the alternative to Brussels giving the power back was us quitting (joining either NAFTA or going like Norway) rather than merely Brussels not doing so.
June 7, 2008
I know there are some decent Politicians in Parliament and I count Mr Redwood as one of them but Mr Cameron is being Deceitfull.
He must Know that the Transfer of Sovereignty is an act of High Treason, Yes I'm aware the Queen has signed these things but it is still treason and she has no legal right to do so.
Is she being coerced, blackmailed.
David Cameron must also Know that no Parliament can Bind it's successors, much of our rights now being trodden over Predate Parliament and cannot be outlawed.
No Parliament can bind its succesors, Why can we not simply tear up the treaties, they are after all Bits of Paper, Heath Lied to us, the Whole EU porject, in my view then this whole agreement is null and void on that basis alone.
The EU is corrupt to the Core, 85% of its Gravytrain Budget is unnacounted for, Where is this Money going.
It has not had it's accounts audited for 13 yrs
The French and Dutch killed it with their No Vote.
What part of NO do these Traitorous Despots not understand.
Come on Queenie, Get on that White charger, bring this house of cards down.
http://anm.intelli-direct.com/e/d.dll?m=230&d…
Reply: I do not agree about David Cameron – he is the best hope we have of rescuing some powers for self government here in the UK
June 7, 2008
As our troops have given their loyalty to Queen and Country, what right does Parliament have to trade that loyalty to the EU, and shouldn't our troops have the right to object to being seconded to the EU's military, and have a right to refuse to accept EU orders?
June 8, 2008
Reply: I do not agree about David Cameron – he is the best hope we have of rescuing some powers for self government here in the UK
Some Powers ?
I want them all back,
No Gold, no Fish, No food, no Fuel, no Industries, except the perceived wealth in houses and the stock exchange, and our armed Forces demoralised and culled.
The picture looks very clear and consistant to me, Great Britain is being deliberately Gutted, and by our own Parliament.
6 Million abortions, a bill to sterilise (only) British schoolgirls.
And what happens when the numbers are correct, are we to have a 'cultural revolution' is that how the food, fuel, housing shortages congestion problems are to be solved.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024863/L…
June 8, 2008
I'm sorry to post this but I don't agree with your comment:
"DC is the best hope we have of rescuing some powers for self government here in the UK".
I've voted Conservative all my life. My father was Labour and my Mother was Liberal. As you can see, we have a mixed 'working class' background which welcomed debate.
David Cameron has not spoken out on the EU and I can tell you this: Ifsomeone comes forward, pledging (ie a Court-honourable manifesto) to take Great Britain out – to denounce it as the corrupt totalitarian construct it is, we will vote for such a party.
Please don't post a reply about changing it from the inside – we all know that once we are inside the only option we have is to repeal the 1972 Act and get out. The EU does not like negotiation or different opinion.
June 8, 2008
Reply: I do not agree about David Cameron – he is the best hope we have of rescuing some powers for self government here in the UK
Those are the words of a surrender monkey John.
Those powers belong to the people. On who's authority have they been surrendered. No government can legally hand the sovereignty of our nation over to another state it is our birthright, you are complicit in an act of treason.
We do not want some of our powers back, we WILL have them all returned to us. You are putting our backs agianst the wall.
June 9, 2008
"‘Cameron admits referendum woe‘ says the headline in today’s Sun. What a load of cobblers! Cameron is just playing silly B’s pretending that he’s upset that it may be impossible to hold a referendum once the Lisbon Treaty has been accepted by Parliament.
The Tories took us into the EU. Ever since, the Tories have continued to strengthen the hold of Brussels at every opportunity. Did anyone seriously believe that they would give the people a referendum if they formed the next government?
No way would the Tories do anything to risk fracturing the EU project, not now nor in the future. The parliamentary Tory Party is no longer a conservative party it is a left/liberal Quisling party and can never, ever be trusted to protect British interests."
This is taken from the BNP's Website. They are standing in the wings, waiting to hoover up when they can……
That is why I agree with john – support Cameron! Trust the man, even though we live in lying times.
June 9, 2008
JR;
In the vote you mentioned, we were told it was merely a trading agreement, not the formation of an alternative USSR. One can only vote on the issues on the basis of what is presented at the time. At the time, I had my doubts as we enjoyed a great deal of trade through our British Commonwealth partners, however, Mr Heath said it was in our nation's interest and I believed him, I never expected a Conservative government to sell us out. Since then, both parties have facilitated further integration towards what we have now and the worse yet to come.
Why are so many British politicians and those of other nations, so keen to loose their national identity? What is in it for them?
I feel many people in this country feel betrayed by their politicians of all political parties, after all, it was our own party under Edward Heath took us in to Europe in the first place.
I am all for trading agreements with the Europeans but, I and many others I suspect, feel we have had a drip drip effect towards futher and further assimilation into a giant socialist style superstate.
At no time can I remember being asked if I want to effectively surrender my heritage, identity, customs and culture to Brussels. I am English and proud of it, I am not European and never will be.
We have seen our nation become little more than a region of the said state. Our courts no longer have supremacy over the law of the land. Our parliament in effect opperates subject to European approval. Our so called elected representitives happily implement each and every diktat given by Europe, often to our nation's detriment.
I suspect that many of those that gave their lives to keep our country free from the last European onslaught, are turning in their graves and in my opinion, we have let those brave souls down.
It makes me so angry the way our country has allowed itself to be sold out to a foreign power and all those politicians responsible should be tried for treason in my view.
Reply: I understand your frustration. The problem in 1975 was that the Treaty of Rome said very different things from what the politicians of all 3 main parties told us it said. That is why so many people feel cheated by the whole thing. Why do politicians go along with it? Because that is the easy option, with the establishment briefing pro the whole U scheme and against us Eurosceptics.
June 9, 2008
John:
Thank you for your reply, I have never considered you to be anything other than a Euro Sceptic, I however, prefer the term Euro realist and a patriotic Englishman when describing my position.
The point I was trying, somewhat clumsily to make I admit, was this; you were rarely, if ever, critical of Mr Cameron, even when he was at his most Blair like.
We need people like yourself to steer Mr Cameron away from "Blair Lite" type policies and to speak up when he sounds like a socialist or Liberal rather than a Conservative.
One example, the new religion of climate change, it is all very well for relatively well off people to constantly demand more and more green taxation but, as with most tax schemes, the poorer people pay an ever increasing proportion of their income directly to the government. Green taxes will not change people's behaviour if they cannot afford to change.
In my view, we should be putting the green agenda on hold at least until after the world economic down turn is over.
I suspect many people in our region of the EUSSR, are more concerned about the price of their fuel, the cost of their food, the cost of their home and the level of taxation, rather than green issues. The whole Climate Change Religion was created by two politicians and the governments of the world saw it as a way of controlling the masses and making some money. How will more and more taxation save the planet? When was the climate fixed?
Is it not a fact that, as technology develops then we will become naturally more green and the old poluting technologies will naturally die out?
In my opinion, the green agenda is a luxury item and we should do without it until the current economic crisis is over.
Perhaps you would give an honest straight opinion in your capacity as an individual citizen of the UK, do you consider Mr Cameron to be Pro the EU or a Eurosceptic? Do you honestly believe he is the right man to deliver the changes both you and I seek? If not, will you tell him so? If he is, then we should both get behind him.
Reply: If I ever have criticisms of the leadership I put those to them in private, not in public. I voted for Cameron because I know he is a Eurosceptic.
June 9, 2008
The problem I see with a proposed Euro army is twofold. Firstly, to be effective as an army the Euro Army will have to have the political backing to be sent somewhere in sufficient force, with sufficient backing to do a job. An army is only effective as a fighting force if you send them to a place with enough troops, equipment and political will to do a job properly; they absolutely must be able to escalate the level of force used to overwhelm an enemy. Given how bureaucratic the EU is, any EU Army would likely get sent in with only political permission to reply like with like, which is actual suicide for troops.
Secondly, to be effective as an army the military must be able to procure good weapons at good prices. The USA and Russia do this with huge home military industrial complexes. Israel does it by buying in everything save the all-important Merkava tanks. The UK does the same, but in an ineffective manner. An EU Army would likely be restricted to EU-manufactured military kit, which is a recipe for ineffective, overpriced garbage.
So, any probably EU Army would be politically hamstrung from the start, ill-equipped and highly unlikely to be effective, plus it everyone would know this. Have you noticed how the UK military now have a recruitment crisis? This is due to a high likelihood of dying somewhere sandy due to political incompetence at procurement and strategy; nobody with a brain wants to die for the sake of a muppet like Gordon Brown's poll ratings. I strongly suspect that people would be most reluctant to join the EU force, knowing what a suicidal farce it would likely end up as.
All in all, it is a really daft idea from the word go, and we really should not be handing over power to the incompetent nitwits in the EU who are proposing it.
Should Cameron propose a referendum on whether Britain stays in the EU or leaves it (to renegotiate a trading position afterwards) he will experience a landslide victory, and will likely trounce Labour into a poor third place.
I'd suggest talking to the electorate on this one, Mr Redwood; we all absolutely hate the European Union. Nobody who isn't a politician likes it, and nobody who isn't a politician can understand why the politicians so love the idea (most think that politicians like the EU as it represents a lavishly paid sinecure for life).
Go talk to your voters.
Ask what they want.
June 9, 2008
JR: "If I ever have criticisms of the leadership I put those to them in private, not in public. I voted for Cameron because I know he is a Eurosceptic."
The problem with the Tory party, is that it is infested with socialists. Those people who are prepared to see the party torn apart rather than see their pet project take a step back.
If honest, these people would be in the Labour party, but actually they serve the purpose of the Labour party, wheeled out to discredit the most recent Tory policy from the inside the party. We saw this behaviour time and again during the Blair years. These are the people who when Blair first came to government, enthuiastically joined him in his 'big tent', as the BBC adoringly called them "the BIG BEASTS" of the Conservative party, we hardly need to name them, we all know who they are. The fifth column in the party.
Mr Redwood on the other hand is, I believe, an honourable man, so are they all; these parliamentarians, honourable men. As they do call themselves honourable and right honourable men, it must be so.
Cameron is, he says, his friend, fathful and just to him, he is thought a ferice and ambitions Eurosceptic, who will bring many captives home from Brussels, the Euro trubutes will our general coffers fill.
When the poor cry out, Cameron too doth weep, comforting them
thus, "Fuel duty *might* be cut", "inheritance tax *may* be reduced (if the foriegners will pay)", "taxes *seem* to be high (but there is much work to be done in the schools n' hospitals)".
Perhaps his ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
June 11, 2008
Our troops already fight under a UN banner. The Royal Navy sails under UN flags and interdicts smugglers
using UN law.
The EU is a UN regional executive, not a sovereign state.
M.Thatcher took us further into europe but i believe she was well intentioned and mislead. She stood up in parliament and said no no no to the federalists. The subsequent coup was not suprising.
I cant imagine David Cameron doing that, but i agree he is the best hope.