So they did not even save the Euro


               The bad tempered EU meeting last week did little to save the Euro. We still do not know how much money they will have to rescue troubled countries, or to intevene in wobbly bond  markets.

               Meanwhile, the non Euro members have seen the text watered down about their possible involvement in the new budgetary controls envisaged in a new Treaty. There was clearly less agreement amongst the 26 than the spinners said. The socialist candidate for French President wants the whole thing re negotiated. There is going to be plenty of time to do so. There will be months of argument ahead on how much new power the EU should have over budgets that used to be set by democratically elected governments.

                     I cannot believe the Times story today will come true that the UK is seriously thinking of concessions to try to stitch this all back together. The public has been misled by suggestions  this “agreement”  can save the Euro, and into thinking all the other 26 now agree. It turns out there is a lot of arguing to do before they have a new legal agreement for the 17 plus, with the 9 not so keen. The UK is well out of it.

                    They are embarked on a long process to build a new hospital for the Euro, when what they need is a better lfie support system for the Euro’s ailments in the bond markets today.


  1. Paul H
    December 13, 2011

    And in the meantime the BBC lets Paddy Ashdown and Jonathan Powell get away with their absurd hyperbole on Newsnight. I still haven’t seen or heard it mentioning the poll saying a majority of the public supports Cameron’s action, but I’m guessing that it’s covered its backside with a “small print” mention somewhere or other.

    1. Kevin Ronald Lohse
      December 13, 2011

      Public support for Cameron’s position is implicit in the number of BBC comments columns which are curtailed after only a few hours.

    2. Bob
      December 13, 2011

      I see the BBC have finally reported the….. riots in Trafalgar Square, albeit in a sanitized form. The Telegraph has the real story.

      Mr. Redwood, it really is time that the BBC question was raised in Parliament, the effect of this organisation and it’s unique method of funding needs to be questioned at the highest level.

      1. lifelogic
        December 13, 2011

        Indeed the BBC role in pushing the pro EU agenda, the Global Warming Exaggerations, forced equality and an ever bigger and more interfering and over paid state sector is pure evil. Paid for as it is by taxes extracted, under threat of imprisonment, then used to indoctrinate and frame the whole political debate of the UK.

        One cannot even say “businessmen” on “any answers” without a pathetic Dimbleby feeling that he has to butt in and point out (for the very, very dim) that there are businesswoman too. The whole language is distorted by the BBC and the choice of what they consider newsworthy items.

        They recruit more of the same from the Guardian, every question they ask seems to come from the arty, lefty, ever bigger state direction. Every discussion on AGW has to be preframed by “the proven science is ……”. Never do they address the fact that wind and PV is absurdly expensive and not even available on demand. Never do they say the true value of this electricity being generated is “virtually nothing”. Just “it will power x homes” (it won’t, it might just provide them with electricity for a couple of those dim mercury filled, mono chromatic, slow light bulbs if the wind blows not to hard).

        1. Pete the Bike
          December 13, 2011

          The risk is that the Beeb propaganda succeeds then lefty politicians / bureaucrats sell us down the river again and we end up shackled to the ghastly socialist nightmare. Lets hope it simply collapses under the weight of it’s own stupidity soon.

        2. Bazman
          December 14, 2011

          I read that gun licence fees are in fact not high enough to cover costs. You need to look at your own bias and exaggerations. Your previous comments on the last post are so far out of kilter with truth and reality as to be laughable.

      2. Kenneth
        December 13, 2011

        But the BBC has public opinion on its side (even I quite like the some BBC shows!).

        Any question raised in the house must be specific and evidence based. If it just a generality it could backfire badly

        1. Disaffected
          December 13, 2011

          Question the conflict of interest of the Trust’s Chair to receive an EU pension and whether it conflicts with his role, as the BBC should be an impartial broadcaster. The two are not compatible. Patten must go. The public already gave him their opinion of him as an MP in Bath- he lost.

        2. Sean O'Hare
          December 13, 2011

          We’re obviously not talking about Strictly Come Dancing or cookery programmes here, but any programme that in any way touches on matters political, be it EU or climate change the BBC shows it’s lefty bias straight away. It needs to be curbed and soon.

        3. lifelogic
          December 13, 2011

          I too listen to a lot of BBC and like much of it. Radio 3 & 4, Newsnight and sometimes the Daily Politics, question time and even the usually unintentionally very funny woman’s hour.

          The evidence for bias in news coverage on the EU, the warming exaggerations and an every bigger state and is absolutely over whelming. It is just the Guardian/Independent on television. Papers almost no one buys from choice. So they have to have it rammed down them using their own money, taken of them under duress, as a licence fee.

          I think they have only Andrew Neil and Prof Philip Stott and Ruth Lea who seem to be fairly sensible people who are not indoctrinated with BBC think to the core.

          1. Bazman
            December 14, 2011

            Where does SKY stand the red herring of the TV licence is just that.

    3. figurewizard
      December 13, 2011

      In a BBC interview last Saturday Ashdown pointed out that Washington was present as an observer at the Brussels summit. The spin he tried to put on this was that they must have been seriously unimpressed by the UK leaving that meeting in a minority of one.

      It is astonishing that it didn’t dawn on him that Washington was actually there to learn what proposals Merkel and Sarkozy were putting forward to resolve the Euro crisis. The only thing that could have left them seriously unimpressed was that those proposals amounted to nothing more than the Eurozone getting together to carry on in the same old way, only this time with new rules to break; just like the others they have already broken.

      It is also astonishing that Ashdown doesn’t realise that for Britain to refuse to go along with this and walk away is what any right thinking US negotiator would have done.

      1. Chris
        December 13, 2011

        Wall Street journal approves of Cameron’s action.

        1. uanime5
          December 13, 2011

          No it doesn’t. It even says that Cameron’s veto may be bad for the financial sector:

          1. David Price
            December 14, 2011

            In that article all the negative comments or near negative comments are unattributed, the only comment with a name attached is that the reaction to the veto is neutral. What the heck does “a person close to London financial firms” mean! – someone who cleans the offices?

            That article smells like disinformation concocted by pro-EU journos.

            The WSJ also carries this article which offers yet another perspective –

      2. Disaffected
        December 13, 2011

        Also the way the states raise and spend taxes on an individual state basis ought to be a message that the EU cronies understand even though America is one country!! Perhaps Clegg and Ashdown should propose to Obama they would have Mexico examine and determine the budget of the USA? Or that the USA needs to become part of one American country to include Canada and Southern American countries and that Panama take the lead!

    4. Disaffected
      December 13, 2011

      It has not stopped with the BBC, Clegg, Ashdown, Huhne and Cable. The unelected dictators of Europe have started with threats and further language of fear. I hope John, Boris, IDS, Cash, Eustice and others realise the EU fanatics are on the war path. Time for that referendum guys. If it leads to an election so be it. Labour and Lib Dems together will get no where even though the boundary reforms have not taken place yet. Make it an in/out general election and the prize is yours.

      Clegg still insults the UK, its culture and anyone who dares to speak out against the EU dictatorship and is a patriot and wants democracy in this country. He stated before the election that he would give an in/out EU referendum that was better than the Tories – was this a true pledge or not? The language he is now using in addition to making a three lined whip to prevent a referendum calls his sincerity into question about making the pledge- like tuition fees. Does he always oppose public opinion on everything? He led the Lib Dems to a thrashing at the last general election, he got thrashed in May at the local elections, he got thrashed on the vote for AV. Split the coalition and give us all another chance to show Clegg what we think of his dream for the UK to become part of a pan European state. Ollie Rehn, Barrosso, Rumpy pumpy and the rest could then see what the British public think of Clegg and his party.

      I still think Paddy ought to go for an EU referendum rather than maintain the EU led puppet government.

      1. lifelogic
        December 14, 2011

        You ask “Clegg stated before the election that he would give an in/out EU referendum that was better than the Tories – was this a true pledge or not?” well it was a “true” pledge. Rather like the Student fees pledge but given as with most Libdem policies on the basis that they never expected to actually gain power.

        Thus they never expected to have to honour it and just thought they would defraud the electorate to gain a few more votes.

    5. Electro-Kevin
      December 13, 2011

      Ditto a lack of balance on the news bulletin on Radio 4.

      However, if you want to witness undisguised BBC bias then look at drama, sitcoms, soaps and children’s TV.

      Look at who is always being portrayed as bigotted, idiotic, ignorant, hysterical, mean, small minded, violent …

      Look at who the heroes and victims are.

      1. Electro-Kevin
        December 13, 2011

        This was meant to be in response to Paul H.

      2. lifelogic
        December 14, 2011

        Certainly radio 4 “comedy” seems all to be written by slightly dim lefty teenagers. The usual punch line is “readers of the Daily Mail” or something that abuses Mrs Thatcher in some way or anyone sensible who points out that the “science” of global warming is full of hole, clearly a gross socialist exaggeration and anyway the solutions proposed do not actually work.

  2. alan jutson
    December 13, 2011

    Just like any large organisation which seeks a concensus, when you have 26/27 members attempting to come to a decision to take action, it will always be too little too late.

    The EU has outgrown its usefulness in its present form, where individual Countries are involved in any real decision making. They have tried to modify it by majority voting, but all that ends up doing is to consistantly upset someone.

    I see a number of politicians within the EU (newspaper reports today) suggest that some EU Members will now seek revenge on the UK by trying to apply draconian regulation and legslation on us without our consent.

    I suggested this would happen in earlier posts, DC will need to be strong, time and time again over the coming months. Meanwhile it would appear all is perhaps not as rosey as had been broadcast with the 26, as many are now begining to find out what is actually on offer, and what they will have to give up in political and self government terms..

    Meanwhile the debt for some, continues to rise. What a fiasco

    1. norman
      December 13, 2011

      It’s difficult to see what we can do. Bound by Lisbon and qualified majority voting it’s impossible for Cameron to get tough. He has both hands tied behind his back.

      This whole saga really has been blown out of all proportion, by both sides. No, we’re not suddenly going to be free of the EU, we’re in exactly the same position we were in 2 weeks ago, and, no, we haven’t caused the Euro to collapse, that’s still continuing apace and nothing anyone could have said / signed at the weekend would have made a whit of difference.

      My bet is they’ll all make up in a month or two and it will back to business as usual with no change in our relationship to the EU. To do otherwise is fraught with so many difficulties it’s hard to see any other outcome.

      1. cosmic
        December 13, 2011


        What’s actually changed?

        What’s likely to change with the UK government basically unconditionally committed to being a member of the EU?

        I suspect that they’ll all kiss and make up and this will be forgotten very quickly and looking back it will be seen as a lot of fuss over nothing.

  3. Javelin
    December 13, 2011

    I’m trying to put some perspective in this. David Cameron has focused on the broken negotiations the much more important issues are growth in the UK and more importantly the EU leaders seem hellbent on sinking into an economic union that is ruinous for Europe. The markets are not trying to bring the EZ down but they reflect the fair value of the EZ – and those prices are lower than the existing market prices for bonds and equities – and it will continue to keep falling until an economic solution is found to EZ debts and deficits. 

  4. Steve Cox
    December 13, 2011

    Since the Eurozone members now seem obliged to hate us, do you suppose we can ask them for all the money back that we’ve stumped up so far to save their currency?

  5. Brian Tomkinson
    December 13, 2011

    Last week’s summit was billed as the last chance to save the euro. Nothing was apparently done to address the immediate problems. If it was so dire why was nothing done to deal with it immediately? Instead further steps were taken to rob the citizens of the countries which are members of the EU of their democratic rights. In the EU the objective of the “project” -a United States of Europe (even Heseltine has now admitted it after 40 years of denial)- always takes precedence. The euro crisis is being allowed to fester to enable the so-called political elite in the EU to force countries to surrender their sovereignty. Clegg says that Cameron’s actions were bad for Britain and yet he was party to planning the negotiations and has no intention of quitting the coalition. Is this man in the pay of the EU? Given the way the whole affair has been treated by the BBC isn’t it about time that they came clean and changed their name to the EUBC ?

    1. backofanenvelope
      December 13, 2011

      They were engaged in “displacement activity”. My cat often does it.

    2. uanime5
      December 13, 2011

      “The euro crisis is being allowed to fester to enable the so-called political elite in the EU to force countries to surrender their sovereignty.”

      The political elite in the EU are the democratically elected leaders of the 27 countries in the EU. So surrendering their sovereignty probably isn’t in their interests.

    3. Jon Burgess
      December 13, 2011

      Don’t worry. The next summit will be the last chance to save the euro. And the one after that. And the one after that, and so on. It’s a bit like a Status Quo on farewell tour.

      The 17 (well Germany and France, lets be honest) seem intent on putting off actually doing anything substantial in the vain hope that something turns up. Is it likely that Europe will suddenly and miraculously returns to vigorous growth?

      Didn’t think so. Too little, too late might be an apt epitaph for Sarkozy, but that might be deemed too ‘heightist’ by the moderator!

  6. Viv Evans
    December 13, 2011

    No, they did not ‘save’ the Euro, but that inconvenient fact has been totally overshadowed by the totally overblown outrage over Cameron’s veto.
    Here in the UK it has been instrumentalist by Labour and their accretions in most MSM, as if they would be capable of enforcing the proposed caps on spending in spite of the demands by the unions.
    On the continent, only some financial commentators are not jumping on the bandwagon of the political journalists and commentators, who have shown such visceral and unreflected hatred of us that further discourse is severely hindered. This is driven by reports even in the top publications, who also pick up the reports in the Guardian and the Beeb to fuel their vituperations.
    Proper analysis there is none, and I for one think this has been very welcome on the continent as it engages the public and takes their eyes off the issue of debt relief and any solutions to the Euro crisis.

    What is even more staggering is that nowhere is the fact addressed that these proposals mean such huge interference into the national sovereignty of the countries subscribing to the proposals. One really wonders what understanding of democratic processes and parliamentary control of governments are prevalent on the continent.
    It is shocking to see how so many see nothing bad in giving up their democratic rights to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels, not even in their own country.

    What good are a few more Euros or Pounds in our pockets if we have given up the freedom to spend them as we, not foreign bureaucrats, see fit?

    1. uanime5
      December 13, 2011

      “What is even more staggering is that nowhere is the fact addressed that these proposals mean such huge interference into the national sovereignty of the countries subscribing to the proposals.”

      What exactly are these ‘huge interference’? Having a deficit of 0.5% GDP?

      “It is shocking to see how so many see nothing bad in giving up their democratic rights to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels, not even in their own country.”

      Does this include the Belgians as well?

      Also your claim is totally false as the EU is not made up of unelected or unaccountable bureaucrats.

  7. yaosxx
    December 13, 2011

    Beware of Primie Ministers bearing gifts…


    1. Alan Wheatley
      December 13, 2011

      Thank you yaosxx for a good link. Well, unless someone really does know different, this is the most convincing explanation of the story so far that I have come across.

      It explains why Cameron and Clegg were able to agree a negotiating position before the event and why they have such different views of the result after the event. Neither foresaw the course the negotiations would take, and for one the twists and turns were good and for the other bad.

      This sorry tale also provides a good example of why the EU is fundamentally undemocratic. It also shows why the EU will end in failure, as ever closer union will never work as long as populations have a sense of national identity.

      The UK must make the preparations for a fully independent existence outside the EU. Whether this is because the UK leaves the EU or because there is no EU left to be a member of remains to be seen.

      1. uanime5
        December 13, 2011

        The UK stopped being able to have a fully independent existence outside the EU after WW2 when its empire was dismantled.

        1. The Realist
          December 14, 2011


  8. john w
    December 13, 2011

    john,it is funny how some people agree to things without checking the detail.It might explain the defecit.Some people say they are off their heads,i say off with their heads.

  9. Disaffected
    December 13, 2011

    I note Sarkosy is saying this morning there will be a two-tier Europe: those who want solidarity and those who want a single market. Ollie Rehn, European Liberal Party, uses language of fear against the Uk saying the veto will not stop regulation against the City of London. I think Janet Daley’s article in the DT (10/12/11) was very good and articulated the situation very well.

    It is no good to rely on Cameron and his Europhile advisers to act in the country’s interest. John, we need people like you, Boris, IDS, Patterson, Eustice, Carsewell, Cash and the others to depose of Cameron in a leadership contest before he takes the UK further into the pan European state that Clegg and his supporters want so desperately. I hope the coalition breaks up so that a general election is forced to decide whether the uK wants to be in or out of the EU. Cameron has prevented an EU referendum already and nailed his colours to the mast. Even though Clegg, Cameron before the election stated to the public we would have an EU referendum. After hearing Clegg over the last few days, what right minded person could believe a word he says? He clearly had no intention of giving the public a referendum and his comments show he treats the UK and culture with disdain.

    Your proposals for renegotiation are laudable but fall on deaf ears. Sadly, it is either an in/out issue because EU fanatics like Clegg will not stop at anything to get a pan European state. Look at the insults he has cast at the UK and people who do not want to be part of a pan European State. He criticises the UK culture and even called us pygmies. He then thinks we should vote for him!! If he dislikes the country and culture so much why does not he leave and live in Europe?? Clegg also seems to forget, as Ashdown does, that there are more Tory rebels in parliament than Lib Dem MPs. On the basis of democratic consensus they are in the minority and are acting against the public’s views.

    The language of fear is nearly hysterical, but the uninformed will believe some of this tripe and it will be too late before they realise what is happening. The unelected take overs of Ireland, Greece and Italy should be a danger warning to everyone the lengths these people will go to to get their way. Also very worryingly is the lack of protests from so called democratic countries allowing it to happen. Countries have gone to war to prevent this sort of thing happening.

    There also needs to be a concerted effort to change the BBC from acting as a propaganda unit for its pro European stance. It is ridiculous that the public fund a broadcasting company instead of it being a private enterprise. If it were it could put whatever slant it chose, like news papers. A good start would be to oust the chair and vice chair of the BBC Trust. The Chair cannot be independent or promote the impartial values of the BBC because he is in receipt of an EU Pension. There is a conflict of interest. The last four days reporting on the subject of the Eu veto was horrendously bias and skewed to scare people.

    1. lifelogic
      December 13, 2011

      “The last four days reporting on the subject of the EU veto were horrendously bias and skewed to scare people.” Indeed it was, just as the BBC reporting AGW agenda always is.

      Still at least the climate summit just came up with a “nothing of any substance agreement” just to save face. Now that nearly all but Huhne have seen through the absurd exaggerations and claims of greens, the BBC, the EU, Cameron, the Libdems and all the dodgy charities on the band wagon.

      Can we please stop building the ugly white elephant wind farms now please?

    2. uanime5
      December 13, 2011

      “He criticises the UK culture and even called us pygmies.”

      Clegg said this because being outside a group every other EU country belongs to diminishes our influence.

      “On the basis of democratic consensus they are in the minority and are acting against the public’s views.”

      Without the Lib Dems help the Conservatives would be a minority Government and wouldn’t be able to pass any laws without Labour’s support. Also the Lib Dems were elected because the public supports what they do.

      “The language of fear is nearly hysterical, but the uninformed will believe some of this tripe and it will be too late before they realise what is happening. The unelected take overs of Ireland, Greece and Italy should be a danger warning to everyone the lengths these people will go to to get their way.”

      You seem to have be affected as well. Ireland, like Spain had a democratic election. Greece and Italy removed their Prime Ministers and chose more competent ones in exchange for bailouts.

      “Countries have gone to war to prevent this sort of thing happening.”

      Name 3 examples.

      “The last four days reporting on the subject of the Eu veto was horrendously bias and skewed to scare people.”

      Just like in every other national newspaper and news channel. It seems like the BBC is just as good as any other news station.

  10. Kenneth
    December 13, 2011

    I think the Germans want to force PIIGS debts onto the UK and private investors and others (China, U.S. etc) by blowing them out of the Euro.

    I cannot see the Euro surviving in anything like its current form by next autumn. France will somehow be looked after, though.

    1. David Price
      December 13, 2011

      I don’t understand your point.

      Isn’t a very large chunk of the Greek and Italian debt held by France in which case how would pushing them out of the Euro/EU move that debt from France onto other countries? Why wouldn’t Greece simply default on the debts to French?

  11. lifelogic
    December 13, 2011

    So what is there solution to the Euro problem – it won’t solve itself either the Germans need to make it clear they will pick up the endless ongoing bills for the PIGIS and even France or they need to break the Euro up devalue wages in the south and get the recovery started again.

    Which do they prefer? Complaining about the Anglo Saxons, the city, “inanimate markets” and the banks it seems.

    1. Kenneth
      December 13, 2011

      I think Germany’s preference must be a break up of the Euro as this is the least cost option.
      Why mutualize the debt within the confines of the Eurozone and let the UK and private investors off the hook?

      1. lifelogic
        December 13, 2011

        Indeed I tend to agree so when?

        1. Kenneth
          December 13, 2011

          I reckon the first domino will fall next summer when many bonds mature.

  12. Antisthenes
    December 13, 2011

    As far as the euro-zone is concerned all that is awaited is the timing of it’s collapse and what will be the outcome whether it will be a complete or partial demise. At the same time we will see the start of the collapse of European economies and where that takes everyone is anyone’s guess. It is astounding that EU leaders and politicians are prancing around having hissy fits apparently oblivious to and doing nothing concrete to address the economic dangers surrounding them. Having put our faith in such people to govern us and look after our economic and social well being it is no surprise that instead they have brought us to the brink of Armageddon.

  13. Damien
    December 13, 2011

    This quote is from the EU Economic and monetary affairs commissioner in yesterdays EUOBSERVER “I would also like to remind you that the UK government has also supported and approved the six-pack of new rules tightening fiscal and economic surveillance which enters into force on Tuesday. The UK’s excessive deficit and debt will be the subject of surveillance like other member states, even if the enforcement mechanism mostly applies to the euro area member states,” he noted’

    I regard this as just one level below the humiliation of a visit by the troika who are monitoring the PIIGS. It is totally unacceptable that this was agreed without a debate and vote in

    As for the socialist candidate for President he has stated he will be seeking even greater scrutiny of the budgets within the EU. How long will it be before they remove our government and replace it with a technocratic administration?

    1. Robert Christopher
      December 13, 2011

      “I would also like to remind you that the UK government has also supported and approved the six-pack of new rules tightening fiscal and economic surveillance which enters into force on Tuesday. The UK’s excessive deficit and debt will be the subject of surveillance like other member states, even if the enforcement mechanism mostly applies to the euro area member states,”

      Is this true? “Being the subject of surveillance” sounds rather sinister.

      I thought Cameron was agreeing for the Euro-zone to do this to themselves, not us!

  14. Sue
    December 13, 2011

    When will this nightmare Sarkozy-Merkel axis end? I simply cannot understand why a Conservative government is denying us the right to vote on how we live our lives in the UK.

    This attitude of “I know best” by Mr Cameron et al has to stop. You cannot expect to get away with it for much longer. Tempers are beginning to fray, everyone I know is furious at what is occurring and they’re not blaming the EU, they’re blaming the Conservatives for not speaking up for democracy.

    If he U-turns on this “veto” or compromises in anyway to placate the EU, watch the stampede to UKIP, not just by the public but I can see some politicians crossing over too.

  15. Sue
    December 13, 2011

    “The largest party in the European Parliament, the centre-right European People’s Party, has said Britain’s annual rebate from the EU should be reconsidered following London’s “selfish” behaviour at last week’s summit.

    “I believe that the British rebate should be put into question. Our taxpayers’ money should be used for things other than rewarding selfish and nationalistic attitudes,” said EPP leader Joseph Daul, referring to London’s decision last week to block full-blown treaty change to tighten fiscal rules”

    And the government want to associate with a bunch of crooks like this? Where is our pride?

    1. Mike Stallard
      December 13, 2011

      Thank you very much for pointing me towards the actual words and break-down of the suggested Treaty and the ESM. I will not say that it was not hard work reading it. It was!
      I have just come from the site where Professor Steve Peers of the University of Essex also discusses it.
      What stuck me very forcibly is this: Italy is now in the hands of the EU/Germany-France. That means that the three countries have total control of the EZ. They demand all sorts of things – among them the supervision of budgets for states that, in their opinion, need it.
      The second thing is that they are determined to hold two summits a year and to make sure that the progress towards fiscal and political unity runs smoothly.
      I find both these last rather scary myself.

  16. RDM
    December 13, 2011

    Do you think it is time to seriously consider the structure and behavior of the BBC?

    To start with I would suggest there two initial problems that need to be deal with.

    1) John Patten, the BBC chair man, being paid by a Federal state, EU? This must be a source of conflict?

    2) The BBC regional clones. Highly expensive at that! All pushing a Federated “United Kingdom” within the EU?

    Is it not time to move to a Economically efficient system? An Internet TV based system, which would, at the same time, release huge Bandwidth? BBC Wales could easily be supplied from their new offices in Manchester with people from N Wales! Huge saving, and releasing loads of commercial properties in Cardiff?



    1. Chris
      December 13, 2011

      It is Chris Patten, not John!

      1. Mike Stallard
        December 13, 2011

        I watched Jeremy Paxman use the word “Disaster” regularly last night. He also had the right, apparently, to say what “the Eurosceptics” thought without actually having any on the programme.

        He is worth every single penny of his salary.

      2. lifelogic
        December 13, 2011

        Lord Patten in fact (for services to the EU I assume)

  17. Chris
    December 13, 2011

    Have just read on Der Spiegel that 49% of Lib Dems apparently supported the PM’s action. Perhaps the BBC should be reporting this fact?,1518,803397,00.html

    “…Polls show that the majority of Brits support Cameron’s position. A survey by pollster Populus found that 57 percent of British voters consider the veto to be correct. Only 14 percent believe it was the wrong move. Among the Liberal Democrats, 49 percent support the prime minister’s decision….”

    1. uanime5
      December 13, 2011

      So the majority of Lib Dems don’t support the PM’s decision.

  18. Chris
    December 13, 2011

    All is not well in Greece according to Venizelos. In Athens News article, Venizelos admits bailout policy failure:

    “….After hour of talks with the country’s creditors and troika inspectors, an “exhausted” Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos admitted on Monday that the harsh austerity policies of the past 18 months have failed to stem the slide to an ever deepening recession and mounting debt.

    “Unfortunately, all the fundamental macroeconomic and fiscal forecasts of the original bailout programme have failed to materialise,” Venizelos told a news conference.

    “The recession – originally estimated at 3.8 percent but now forecast by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to exceed 6 percent this year – has been cumulative over the past three years, paving the way for its fourth year in 2012…..

    Asked by the
    Athens News

    whether the government expects Greek people to endure another avalanche of self-defeating austerity measures under EU uncertainty and blackmailing dilemmas that accompany every bailout loan disbursement, Venizelos replied in an apologetic tone.

    “No, the Greek people can’t endure the same situation because they have already been extremely oppressed and insulted,” the minister said.

    Destructive stereotype

    “A negative stereotype has been created about the country, destroying its international standing and functioning in a counterproductive manner by worsening the recession and undermining the national economy.

    But – as you say – the EU changes its views too quickly, its decisions are never completed and finalised, they fail to convince the markets and ward off the attacks orchestrated by speculative sections of the same markets against the euro’s hard core.”….

  19. Robert K
    December 13, 2011

    It doesn’t take much for the viciousness of the EU elite to be revealed, does it? The second anyone steps out of line they deploy the language of threat and menace.
    Let’s get out now.

  20. Chris
    December 13, 2011

    Whatever one’s views on UKIP, (I am not a member of UKIP but find the straight talking and energy of Nigel Farage refreshing and impressive) it is well worth seeing his address to the European Parliament this morning…”On the Titanic towards economic and democratic disaster”…

  21. javelin
    December 13, 2011

    Just in case you wondered why the Euro was falling.


    Honestly what a shambles. I would call it a joke but it’s the European Economy.

    If you look at the economy and politics alone – the size of the debt, the political dogma, and the economic destruction – this all very similar to WWII. Europe is led by moral pygmies once again.

  22. Chris
    December 13, 2011

    To those mentioning EU funding of the BBC, see the Early Day Motion January 2008 just to give some idea of the scale of it: “soft loans and payments amounting to 258 million euros over the last five years (2003-8?)were paid by the EU to the BBC; additionally…!

    This second link gives an idea of just some of the grants and loans available more widely.

  23. Martin
    December 13, 2011

    To be fair to the eurozone countries at least most of them have seen the folly of APD (Air Passenger Duty) and cut or abolished this bad tax to enable tourism growth.

    The figures in the Telegraph article about Chinese visitors are very interesting and show in general how the high tax UK is under performing! Classic Laffer curve analysis.

    1. uanime5
      December 13, 2011

      The Laffer curve claims that if taxes are too higher or too low maximum revenue is not collected. The question is whether Eurozone countries would obtain more revenue if they reintroduced APD. If they would then their taxes are too low.

  24. uanime5
    December 13, 2011

    Given that 9 non-Euro countries that belong to the EU have to join the Euro they’ll have to comply with the new treaty when they join the Euro.

    The main problem for the UK is that it is currently the only member of the EU that is refusing to participate in an effort to save the Euro. This will not only antagonise the other 26 members of the EU but other countries that want this crisis to be resolved, such as the USA. Cameron’s plan to make everyone our enemy to score political points with his backbenchers will not end well.

  25. Anne Palmer
    December 13, 2011

    As I understand it, David Cameron’s veto was to a proposed EU treaty change. Is that correct? A Treaty change may well have activated the promised referendum, is that correct?

    Having then left the table, his departure allowed “the rest” to concentrate on the proposed ESM Treaty for the 17 Euro Members plus that Countries that now feel obliged to join the Euro 17. A Treaty that no way can this Country ever join.

    Although this is stated quite clearly in a UK Government Standard Note “Even though the UK is not in the euro area, Treaty changes must be approved by all Member States and the UK must therefore ratify this decision in accordance with constitutional requirements. The current requirements for parliamentary approval under the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 are that each House agrees a motion approving the Government’s intention to vote for or support the adoption of a specified draft decision under Article 48(6) TFEU. ”It is indeed changing the Treaty of Lisbon. It is a Treaty change which should be debated in full and put to the people, because, although the UK has an “opt out” on the EURO, it should also be remembered the UK had an “opt out” on the EIO, yet when this Government came into alleged power, one of the first things they did was to “opt in” to it. The same could happen to the EURO especially if the LibDems became the next Government! Yes I know a referendum has been promised before entry into a Single Currency, but I also remember being told by one Edward Heath that there would be “no loss of essential Sovereignty” too, yet didn’t he become Sir Edward Richard George “Ted” Heath, KG, MBE, PC?

    Sue above has a very good point re a referendum although I would rather our own British PM take us out of the EU and not left to the people. I do question however, is it right that a very temporary Prime Minister should be allowed to make such a momentous decision that would take this Country to be governed forever by Foreigners which is indeed contrary to our Constitution. In war time, some were hung for less.

  26. Atlas
    December 13, 2011

    Surely Merkozy will want another Summit soon. They need an EU treaty for all the power it will give them to frighten when dealing with the small states, So apart from Sarkozy’s loss of face, they’ll offer Cameron a small bone on the City, mediated by those Lib-Dems who already have to keep their EU alligence so as to hang on to their EU pensions.

    I just hope Cameron will remain firm.

  27. javelin
    December 13, 2011

    Euro crashes after Merkel rules out what she implied she led us all to believe at the Summit. Actually there is NO money – but lots of debt.

    Cameron – you played a blinder – really.

  28. BobE
    December 13, 2011

    Dave is being proved right.
    ReutersReuters Top News
    Analysis: Merkel’s post-summit glow fades in Germany

  29. Denis Cooper
    December 13, 2011

    Interesting tables in this article entitled “Fines all round?”.

    The first table shows how few of the eurozone states have consistently kept below the Maastricht budget deficit limit of 3% of GDP over the past decade – just three, Estonia, Finland and Luxembourg.

    None have kept below the proposed 0.5% limit.

    The second table shows how many have kept below the 60% of GDP limit on public debt – five, the above three plus Slovakia and Slovenia.

    The author’s conclusion: “What was supposedly agreed in Europe on Fiday just ain’t to gonna happen”.

  30. Bernard Otway
    December 13, 2011

    Did anyone watch Panorame 8.30pm last night ,about trading with the REST of the world.
    I couldn’t believe they showed it as it clearly stated the way forward is to broaden horizons in
    trade for Everyone,including Europe.They actually showed that the EU is slowly dying IF it stays focussed inwardly.I predict by the year 2050 at the MOST [I won’t be here by then]
    but my grandchildren will be,the world trading nations will be something like this,as a sort of order.
    then who knows
    BUT clearly only one European country will be at the very top,the ONLY way that any other European country will be successful ,IF this is not to happen is to identify and do what it is best at or like Finland and NOKIA and Sweden ELECTROLUX and VOLVO[now chinese
    owned] identify and exploit new industries or services,and as I said the other day in a comment NEVER let go of Intellectual property and pursue new and keep it and IF it’s manufacture is outsourced put thousands of padlocks on copying,BUT better still manufacture yourself,and at the very best of anyones ability.Apple products for instance would sell no matter where they are made as would any well designed and desired product.
    This is why I tell any young people under 40 especially with children to Emmigrate to
    Australia/NZ/Canada,as I don’t believe we have leadership capable of making this a great place to live even in 25 years and we will probably by then have a population of 80 million,
    with not a good standard of life.

  31. BobE
    December 13, 2011

    Reuters Top News
    S&P says more bonds at downgrade risk on euro zone crisis

  32. Trudi
    December 13, 2011

    I understand the need to protect the Euro currency, although I don’t understand how in these ‘sophisticated’ times it was able to get in to so much trouble. But what I don’t understand is why it’s parent company isn’t being held responsible for helping it. The EU has been sucking in money for decades and as their accounts haven’t been signed off for nearly two decades, there must be huge fighting funds gathering dust. I don’t understand why any nation is prepared to give them a penny until everything is brought up to date.

  33. john w
    December 13, 2011

    John,i have seen mr verhofstadt on the telly.He has now completed the set with the word nationalism.They eat us out of house and home and insult us for not letting them rob our banks.I wonder if my mp is defending democracy in the eu debate,mrs w has hijacked the telly.Best check hansard in the morning to see if he raised any important points.

  34. waramess
    December 14, 2011

    There is but one way to resolve the problem of bankrupt entities and that is liquidaton of all available assets and forgiveness of debt. Nothing else.

    And David Cameron is still a socialist europhile dressed in blue, no matter how his performance in Brussels might appear.

    Shocking that we might think otherwise.

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