One of the ironies of the Labour leadership contest is the dislike of democracy amongst the Labour establishment. We read of rumours that a senior figure wanted to terminate the contest prematurely because it might produce the wrong answer. We hear of conversations between Labour establishment advisers and others over whether they could have a single Stop Corbyn candidate. We hear that some Labour MPs would want to dump the new leader as soon as possible if it is to be Mr Corbyn. We watch and listen to Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham respond to Mr Corbyn, allowing their agenda to be dragged into discussion of the suitability of the front runner rather than a positive case of why they would offer the best leadership. Yvette Cooper understands she needs to communicate a positive message of a better UK were she to lead, but is being hampered by the absence of a compelling vision and phrase. Andy Burnham just flip flops from one day to the next as he tries to gain the front runner position he seemed to think he had by right.
No wonder people are fed up with aspects of contemporary politics. The Labour leadership discussion exudes a sense of entitlement rebuffed from the mainstream candidates. They look shocked that they are not leading the opinion polls, worried that their meetings don’t attract the following Mr Corbyn attracts, and bemused by the way Mr Corbyn has an army of followers enrolling as Ā£3 voting members when they do not have lots of new people to draft in. They fall back on garnering the endorsement of Messrs Blair and Brown and repeating the establishment arguments that you have to carry on doing things much as they did them in Brown’s government and Miliband’s opposition period. “Credible” is their favourite word, mouthed without any sense of irony. How credible was Labour’s tax and spend strategy? How credible was Labour’s remodelled banking regulation? How credible is Labour’s passive acceptance of all things EU? What does Labour now think of its immigration policies of the last decade? Has Labour found England on a map yet or recognised our flag?
I certainly don’t think Mr Corbyn has the answer to the UK’s problems. I do think he asks difficult questions of the Labour establishment, and highlights the failings of their past economic, foreign and EU policies. It is his willingness to demand change and to point out that it was the Labour establishment that got them into their current mess that clearly appeals to many Labour supporters. Meanwhile the country could benefit from an opposition that was willing to oppose. If only one of them would pledge to oppose the accretions of power and the unwise laws coming from the EU that would liven UK politics up and shine a light onto just how much is now done for us by Brussels. The Opposition should be putting pressure onto the government to get powers back from the renegotiation. They need to confess just how much power they gave away and show some remorse at the limitations now placed on any UK government. The more parts of UK government policy the EU runs, the more the Labour establishment figures look like puppets of Brussels.
August 19, 2015
it smacks of the Cameron election rigging. One minute nobody has heard of him, next minute he’s leader. After the smarmiest, cringing campaign speech I’ve ever heard,
the mainstream media rallied behind him as if on cue.
it almost seems that there is a controlling hand from above.
Reply The other candidates had the same opportunity to win support from members and the media. Mr Corbyn was not the media’s candidate but seems to be doing well.
August 19, 2015
Indeed. I suspect the main reason Corbyn does so well is that the public is totally sick to death of “professional” politicians with their endless vacuous, question avoiding phrases, childish PR photo ops and non answers. Good luck to him.
I see there was a letter in the Times from some overseas academics supporting Corbyn’s bonkers, logic defying, learned nothing from history, economic approach. Disappointingly they seemed totally unable to give any reasons why they supported it.
Talking of puppets of Brussels, has Cameron decided what powers he wants back yet? Is he ever even going to tell us? Cameron, professional career politician to the core, should watch out for exactly these reasons.
August 19, 2015
Interesting to read about the inability of the London Ambulance service, in relation to Gerald Ratner’s daughter. Apparently left in agony for two hours and eventually picked up by her mother it is reported in the Evening Standard yesterday.
It does not surprise me, almost nothing in the NHS or the UK state sector in general ever seems to work efficiently. Politicians are far more concerned with passing laws, PR stunts and photo ops to ever bother to ensure anything runs efficiently or acts in the interest of the public.
Run by the state sector mainly in the interests of the senior staff but (paid for by the 80% not in the state sector) this seems to be the way.
August 19, 2015
Well the police seem to be very efficient at closing roads off for ages within several 100s of yards of any accident or incident. It would seem far more sensible to have mini-cranes stationed at strategic locations to lift vehicles off motorways etc, particularly the M25, but that would be too efficient, wouldn’t it?
August 19, 2015
They are very efficient at issuing parking tickets, box junction ticket, bus lane tickets, fines for late filing or forms etc. too.
But attending and investigating burglaries is clearly not remotely a priority. Nor is answering the phone at HMRC, nor replying to letters, nor getting NHS medical scan results out promptly (up to five months) I hear sometimes.
August 19, 2015
@JoeSoap
You’re not kidding.
If they spent less time holding up traffic they might find more time to investigate burglaries.
Chocolate teapots come to mind.
August 19, 2015
I see that the authorities in Thailand have sensibly managed to re-open the bombed shrine in the Bangkok already.
Still the UK courts haven’t started fining you for photographing police cars parked in disabled parking spots yet have they? (as seem to now happen in Spain).
August 19, 2015
Don’t be silly the NHS and all public sector institutions are running perfectly well and all our loaded tick box questionnaires back this up.
Any decent whistle blowing voices will not be heard, and we will deal immediately with any incompetence by immediately moving the person sideways within the institution with more re education and a possible pay rise.
August 19, 2015
Mr Corbyn has been an MP since his early 30s and before that was employed by a union. As far as I’m aware, like Miliband, Not one day in the private sector which generates all the wealth he wants to tax, borrow against and spend. A professional politician if ever there was one!
August 19, 2015
He also wants to thieve off landlords (just like Miliband) tbut then Osborne is also doing that with his double taxation of interest costs for landlords. Double as taxes on landlords and then also on the bank receiving it.
August 19, 2015
Thus deterring & reducing investment in property just when we need more to be built.
August 19, 2015
You are absolutely right Richard 1. But at least Mr Corbyn is a professional campaigner for his own ideas rather than a careerist who will jump on whatever bus that he/she thinks will take them to the top fastest. I thought Mr Redwood’s points on Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper were particularly telling.
Personally I would like to see another potential woman prime minister; I could have voted for the strong-minded “Left-wing” Barbara Castle in my youth if she had made the Labour leadership. So I am disappointed that. as Mr Redwood so neatly puts it. Yvette Cooper “is being hampered by the absence of any compelling vision or phrase”.
Sadly, it seems that she cannot articulate her vision for the country simply because she does not have one.
August 25, 2015
This type complaint comes so easily. Too easily. People on the left complain about the lack of politicians with a working class background. People on the right complain about politians without experience of private business. But does any of this make much sense? What was Churchill’s experience of private industry? What was Macmillan’s? Mrs T worked for a few years as a research chemist but did that make the difference? What influenced her political thinking most her work on ice cream emulsifiers or her reading of Hayek?
August 19, 2015
Good morning.
I think it ironic that we should demand that there should be ‘democracy’ in the Labour leadership campaign when there is scant democracy elsewhere throughout the land.
How democratic was it for three men to sign a piece of paper and commit a Government, Parliament and a nation to promises that they had no right to give ? Yes, it still wrangles with me even today !
We do not get much democracy over the selection of candidates who the parties put forward in our constituencies. And we do not get a democratic say who gets to lead our real government in Brussels.
There is only one true democracy, and that is Direct Democracy ā Swiss style.
Reply Members of the Conservative party select the Conservative candidate, and all voters can then decide whether they like that Conservative candidate enough to vote for them or want some other independent candidate or different party
August 19, 2015
T0 reply: Well what about Cameron’s A list, his token women, “personalities” and the likes. Also some of the sound EUsceptic people he has forced out or blocked without any justification.
August 19, 2015
To reply:
True. But the Con candidates/MPs seem to have no say over the agenda they follow – that is dictated by the Party leader who has presidential powers, yet we have no presidential election. When was the last time someone went against the Party whips?
And if they do follow their conscience like Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless did, they suffer from character assassination via the govt-controlled mass media (starting with the BBC). And jolly good luck to any poor souls who have the gall to stand as an Independent!
I like my local (Con) MP and am a personal friend of the MP for the remainder of the city (also Con), but the Party line as dictated by DC appears to have reduced them almost to local councillors.
Reply The last Parliament saw many rebellions, and in this Parliament some of us sought changes to the Referendum Bill against a 3 line whip.
August 19, 2015
Yes Mr Burnham is particularly feeble and inadequate. I guess we on the right should hope for him to win as the continuity-Miliband candidate most likely to lose for Labour in 2020. Although Mr Corbyn might be asking some difficult questions of Labour we should not kid ourselves he has any sensible answers. I doubt he thinks Labour borrowed and spent too much – he probably thinks too little. Presumably he favours every silly leftist orthodoxy from green crap to limitless borrowing and spending and uncontrolled non-EU as well as EU immigration. The only remotely sensible arguments are coming from Liz Kendall who seems to have no chance. labour are to remain the Party of welfare and the unions, of tax borrow spend, of green crap and euro federalism.
Reply Mr Corbyn’s folly is clever than that. He says he wants to eliminate the deficit and does wish to shape a new Labour view of the EU renegotiation – he has not rushed in to support membership on any terms
August 19, 2015
As you say: “Presumably he favours every silly leftist orthodoxy from green crap to limitless borrowing and spending and uncontrolled non-EU as well as EU immigration” …… “Labour are to remain the Party of welfare and the unions, of tax borrow spend, of green crap and euro federalism.”
Rather like Cameron and Osborne’s Tories and their magic money tree economics and centrally determined wage levels. The problem is these sorts always run out of other peoples money to piss down the drain.
August 19, 2015
Cameron the other day said – illegal immigrants cannot “break into Britain”. But they do every day and are almost never deported even when picked up under Cameron’s government.
Just saying things does not make them happen. We can only judge Cameron types on their actions as we know his words are usually forgotten before the sound even dies away.
August 21, 2015
I think Cameron is hollow as a drum but the Labour Party are the same. I think Corbyn will ask difficult questions of Cameron. If Cameron just keeps rebuffing him with hypothetical responses that his sums don’t add up the public will soon get fed up with Cameron as well.
August 19, 2015
“We read of rumours that a senior figure wanted to terminate the contest prematurely because it might produce the wrong answer.”
Well yes that was the spin that most of the largely right wing press put on it, but the truth appears to be that some wanted to delay the voting due to suspicions [1] that members and close supporters of other parties were signing up for a Ā£3 vote.
OK, perhaps the Labour party were stupid to allow ‘friends of the party’ a vote, but does wanting time to make (legal) checks on eligibility really amount to a “dislike of democracy” as you claim John, most would suggest the exact opposite. If your own party was faced with the same problem I have no doubt that it would wish to suspend the election/vote until such time as the eligibility of new applicants had been checked.
[1] and some very real evidence, not least from the editorial content of at least one right wing newspaper, and one persons self publicised admission to having signed up three times under different names
Reply Of course they need to check the names, and have said they will do so as the voting is underway, as well as having done so on first registration. That was not the point I am making. The story was a senior figure wanted to cancel the election owing to likely outcome.
August 19, 2015
@JR reply; “The story was a senior figure wanted to cancel the election owing to likely outcome.”
But my point was that is all it seems to have been -a story, and a tall one at that, put about by the right-wing media. I can not see how anyone as experienced as this “senior figure” [1] would not understand that should the other three candidates withdraw from the contest it would simply turn into a leadership coronation for Mr Corbyn rather than a cancellation of the election!
[1] someone named by the said media outlet, but a name you seem reluctant to use yourself John, I wonder why?…
August 19, 2015
Jerry ( words left out ed)
The fact that your beloved party can’t even stage a leadership election, can’t generate new members or decide what constitutes one of their own supporters tells us everything we need to know about the veracity of their ( and yours) economic policy, leadership qualities and ability to do anything meaningful .
As to your chip on shoulder based drivel about “the right wing press” try reading the left wing press and labour party blogs and forums on the same issues.
August 19, 2015
@libertarian; “The fact that your beloved party [could]nāt even stage a leadership election,”
You are quite correct, the Tory party truly messed up in 1975, and the Tory Party, and country, if not world, has been living with the consequences ever since.
“canāt generate new members or decide what constitutes one of their own supporters”
Are you talking about the Tory party again? The Labour party do not seem to have any problem in deciding who constitutes a (new) member of the party, or who is entitled to vote, or attracting such genuine members. Their problem seems to be the fact that they have over half a million applications to process in a fixed length of time – something the Tory party do not see to have for some reason, indeed judging by some media claims the Tory parties problem is deciding when someone actually stops being a member, not when they start…
“tells us everything we need to know about the veracity of their ( and yours) economic policy, leadership qualities and ability to do anything meaningful”
All in your ultra-capitalist partisan opinion of course.
“As to your chip on shoulder based drivel about āthe right wing pressā try reading the left wing press and labour party blogs and forums on the same issues.”
Touchy, I must have hit another nerve! But if you care to cite some evidence and I will be happy to, beyond the pro Blairite media, blogs and forums of course.
August 19, 2015
Perhaps you should advise us all which media sites are acceptable and completely unbiased Jerry.
It seems only you can determine which these are and everyone else is being brain washed.
Look forward to seeing your list.
August 20, 2015
@Edward2; “Perhaps you should advise us all which media sites are acceptable and completely unbiased Jerry.”
I asked for some evidence, such as someone saying something, not exactly difficult in this day and age of the video blog and YouTube.
Of course video is editable but it will take a very, very skilled editor to piece together a convincing video clip of a continuous sentence that says something the speaker did not actually say. Go for the longer clips.
If you want to know what Corbyn has said, in the written form, then you will need to search out his website for the official text, just as you would go to the 10 Downing Street site for that of the PM, or this site for what our host says, any other site or publication etc. can not be trusted to verbatim…
“It seems only you can determine which these are and everyone else is being brain washed.”
Of course they are, except that most would call it “the editorial line” or house-style these days. The modern MSM is like a fast-food burger bar, their offerings fill a craving (whilst being designed to sell the add on products), Michelin rated it won’t be!
August 19, 2015
Jerry
What a childish response from you.
So once again the failure of one of your beloved institutions is OK by you because YOU ( with no evidence and no links) think that another party is as bad. Ha ha ha you are so funny.
I couldn’t care less what the Tory Party did or do, I’m not a Tory or an ultra capitalist ( mostly because theres no such thing as an ultra capitalist)
As to links
Oh do grow up, so I can only provide evidence that you agree with are you sure you don’t work for the BBC ?
August 20, 2015
@libertarian; “What a childish response from you.”
You still can’t debate the point, only engage in silly personal abuse, and you call my comments “childish”. Please read my reply to Edward above with regards citations and URL’s etc.
“I couldnāt care less what the Tory Party did or do, Iām not a Tory or an ultra capitalist ( mostly because theres no such thing as an ultra capitalist)”
In your ultra-capitalist opinion of course! Just because you do not see yourself as one doesn’t mean there is no such thing, but perhaps I just need to be less politic in the description, although then I suspect I would attract the editors blue pencil.
August 20, 2015
I was actually referring to your phrase “the right wing media” Jerry.
I was wondering if you could let us know of any unbiased media which you like or trust.
August 19, 2015
JR is quite right. They’d be no fuss about any irregularities if the “right” result was likely.
There are always irregularities in any election. However, the way the Labour Party have chosen to conduct their National ballots is likely to lead to more irregularities than a reasonable person might consider acceptable. It is reasonable to have a one-member-one-vote system for any party election, but one -pseudo-Ā£3-supporter-one-vote??
If the result is decisive, there shouldn’t be a problem. At least not this time. But if it’s close? We’ll just have to wait and see I suppose.
August 19, 2015
@petermartin2001; “but one -pseudo-Ā£3-supporter-one-vote??”
The hole in that argument is proving that it is a “pseudo” vote, and the same could be said about any full membership application, Ā£3.88 p.m is loose change for many. Also even those who have belonged to another party are allowed to, and do, change their political allegiances [1], would the Tory party start slagging off ex UKIP members should they have a membership boom pre or post the promised Brexit referendum?…
Seems to me that the right wing first off tried to play the “pseudo-Ā£3-supporter-one-vote” game, not more so that the DT, but now that Corbyn seems to be winning due to real membership votes they are joining with the “Nu Labour” Blairites to question the entire election process because the status quo of the last 30 years in under threat, post a Corbyn win the debate will no longer be about how the accepted policy is implemented but about what the policy should be.
[1] never mind the previously disaffected
August 19, 2015
This is of course a mirror image of the Conservative Party’s situation.Same entitlement, same lack of credibility in its tax and spend/immigration policies. Perhaps Labour will be the first to change from being part of LibLabCon cosy cartel to being a fully-fledged party, independent of EU and US overbearing influence? Perhaps eventually, having seen this happen to Labour, the electorate will find a way of turning the Tories into a real Conservative Party again? One can but hope.
August 19, 2015
You avoid mentioning the fact there seems to have been massive entryism from the right (Conservative and UKIP) and the left (Greens, Trotskyites) into this election with some Conservative MPs voting and some Conservative supporters voting multiple times rendering it little better than a third-world election. This is not “democracy” in any sense of the word, and actually demonstrates contempt for the concept by those Conservatives participating in it. Of course all this has been entirely Labour’s fault for setting up the Ā£3 membership option, it seems their “membership” has increased by hundreds of thousands in a few weeks. It also makes those on the libertarian right (Dan Hannan, Douglas Carswell) who call for open primaries look pretty foolish – Labour has run an open primary for their leadership and look what’s happened.
Reply I did not know any Conservative MPs tried to vote, let alone was allowed to! Can you name one who has? I have read about one case of a Conservative member registering in 3 different names which presumably Labour will now cancel as it has been revealed. I strongly advise Conservatives to keep out of the registering/voting as most of us have done. I think Mr Corbyn can do well without the new entrants anyway, and as I have written Mr Corbyn is not unalloyed good news from the Conservative point of view.
August 19, 2015
Tim Loughton signed up as a registered supporter of Labour to be eligible to vote in the partyās leadership election
August 19, 2015
@Iain Gill; @Roy Grainger; To be fair, I suspect that he joined up simply to expose the problem, not to actually cast a valid vote, otherwise why self publicise what you have done and how you have broken the rules!
August 19, 2015
Tim Loughton tried to vote.
August 19, 2015
Democracy. That’s what gets invoked when political parties screw over the population.
For example today it was reported that only half of graduates are in skilled jobs. The other half are understandably livid that they cannot pay their debt back. Further it makes no sense for half of A level students to apply to university.
Then we see the majority of these new jobs going to skilled EU workers.
So it is obvious that higher education in this country is about to experience a catastrophic drop in student numbers. Also the Government is raving a debt time bomb.
If the Conservatives think that Corbyn isn’t coming into this problem with fresh eyes they are complete fools and deserve to be punished at the ballot box.
August 19, 2015
Over 50% of loans (and rising) will not be repaid it seems and this is likely to rise. Especially the loans to females who tend to take career breaks and the absurd ones made to overseas EU students.
About 75%+ of university courses are not worth very much at all in the jobs market. Either due to the poor quality or the subject itself. Perhaps they should limit loans to the 25% of courses & student that are likely to lead to command an income that will repay the loan in full.
At least the loans have shifted people towards more job orientates courses.
August 19, 2015
Certainly there should be some kind of follow up on which courses lead to what employment outcomes as any well run business would attempt to measure such a huge outlay of resources. I accept however this may not be so easy but, if do-able would lead to 2 things:
1. Far better clarity for students on where the best courses are. This info should be available to them during GCSE’s as it may influence their choices for A levels.
2. If not naturally achieved by 1 then places to be at the least capped on the lower performing courses
Reply Good careers advice/education does just this, tells people what qualifications/degrees they need to do certain jobs, and tells them something of the supply/demand balance and pay rates in current conditions.
August 19, 2015
Purely anecdotal evidence this year interviewing A level students:
-they are, finally, not just being funnelled into Universities.
-schools which are no longer funnelling them into Uni automatically aren’t giving them any help at all. Students with A* A B working in shoe shops, not having a clue that they need any further training to take on more complex roles in business.
-apprenticeship scheme although good in principle is a muddle. Different rules apply if you’re 16, 18 or 20 years old. In short employers pay for apprenticeships but student loans available for part-time diplomas. Kids with experience knowing they want to be an x can’t get on schemes because they’re too old, 16 year olds who don’t have a clue what they want to do can sign up free tomorrow.
August 20, 2015
To reply:
Good careers advice and good career advisers are in very short supply indeed I find.
Furthermore headstrong students are so often simply not listening. At least the student loan scheme encourages them to consider the course. Will the course being considered actually lead to anything other than a Ā£40K student debt, delusions of grandeur and a loss of three years wages & work experience?
In very many cases it will not.
August 19, 2015
Almost all you say is true. Labours four say nothing about the EU because the traits you highlight in labour extend well into the EU. None of them like democracy, nor can any of them face up to the seeds of chaos they have sown.
Your last sentence requires editing and should read “The more the EU runs, the more the political establishment figures of all parties of the UK look like puppets of Brussels.” I await that damascene moment when they accept reality.
August 19, 2015
It sure would be interesting to see at least one of the Labour leadership candidates come out against the EU, and talk about their past failed policies that have facilitated this disaster (although the Tories’ hands aren’t exactly clean.)
I’ve got this feeling that just like a lot of traditional Tory voters, a lot of Labour voters are no longer prepared to just put their crosses on the ballot paper without thinking about what it is these people actually stand for. There are a lot of traditional Labour supporters who do not like the EU and recognise how much damage it has caused. That means the position of the present crop of Labour leadership candidates is likely to be out of kilter with a broad swathe of their core supporters. That’s where UKIP have stepped into the breach, hoovering up blue-collar votes. That is a big problem for Labour, and is likely to keep them out of power, possibly more so than any swing to the left.
I’m in fairly regular touch with some senior figures in the Labour party who are disposed against the EU, and this is a bigger issue than any of the leadership candidates have so far acknowledged. On their own heads be it.
Tad
August 19, 2015
Tad reply.
Our future relationship with the EU is of such importance that politicians senior and junior need to put party loyalty to one side and consider the sovereignty of our nation. Party policy stems from the prejudices of the leadership and the tacit support of MPs who do not wish to blot their copy book where advancement is a possibility. Both conservative and labour are guilty of this lack of conviction in the face of the leadership. As you say it leaves the door open for UKIP to step in and provide the electorate with a means of expressing themselves. You will not know what the strength of anti EU feeling is until the referendum becomes a voting issue.
Reply We helped secure a referendum by a large group of Conservative MPs voting for one when the leadership was against!
August 19, 2015
Reply to reply, I don’t doubt you John, but why should anyone trust the judgement of a leadership that is so wedded to something that is a dismal and proven failure?
You might have the guts to denounce the cursed thing, but I know a lot of MPs from all sides who just go with the flow, and acquiesce as Agricola rightly says, because they have one eye on their career prospects. That isn’t good for the country, and they make me sick.
And this I venture, is the attraction with Jeremy Corbyn. He sticks to his principles whether others agree with them or not, and will ultimately try to sell them to the public if he is elected as the new Labour leader. I can at least respect a ‘signpost’. I hold political ‘weathercocks’ in contempt.
Tad
August 19, 2015
Reply to reply – At least the leader is for a referendum now apparently and will be getting the best deal for the UK….. š
zorro
August 19, 2015
Dear John, These Ā£3 chaps I thought were not “members”, voting or otherwise, but “registered supporters” and I for one wouldn’t blame Labour MP’s if they cannot stomach Corbyn, given how little say they will have had in his election. It’s a bit like in 2020 allowing the rest of the world to sign up as registered electors in the UK (already in train no doubt in some guise via the wretched EU). Is it not the case that Labour MP’s alone get to vote in any (very possibly immediate) new leadership challenge? However, even if that is right the Ā£3 chaps presumably get to vote for the next fellow. I may have lost the plot because surely it cannot be like that can it–Corbyn might get re-elected in a sort of perpetual motion machine?
Reply The Ā£3 joiners have to pledge support for Labour aims and values and have a vote like the long standing members. If Labour MPs refused to co-operate with the Leader the members/voters chose then they would have a constitutional crisis of some magnitude. Remember the members can also de select the MPs.
August 19, 2015
Yes, well, my professional association ended up as part of Unite, through several steps over a couple of decades or so, and they helpfully sent me a form so I could register to vote in this election. All I had to do was to lie about supporting Labour, and pay the Ā£3, and I had the chance to help elect a Labour leader who would destroy the party. What total idiocy, as stupid as “open primaries” where a party invites its opponents to help select its parliamentary candidate.
August 19, 2015
If you wanted to use your vote to destroy the party which candidate would would you choose ?
There is always the danger that your choice exceeds expectations and leaves you with egg on your face .
August 19, 2015
I would vote for the candidate who can command minimal support among the Labour MPs he would have to try to lead and who espouses policies with very limited public appeal.
August 19, 2015
LS and reply
If Yes4Jes is successful then I am fairly certain that in some way Labour MPs will in time find a way to remove him. They are politicians after all and this is their speciality.
By the way JR I like the way you are responding to many posts – it seems obvious that both you and many of your colleagues find this stimulating and thought provoking.
August 19, 2015
Comment on Reply–Corbyn is certain to win under the demented new system and there will be enough Labour MP’s to throw him out; but I do not see how that would affect the Constitution let alone cause a crisis, There would simply be considerable embarrassment for the Labour Party followed by a special conference to change the rules back to something more sensible. To think that these people recently fancied themselves capable of running the country. Possibly the Labour Party will break up but again that would not touch the Constitution.
Reply I was talking about the constitution of the Labour party!
August 19, 2015
Dear John–I did consider that, but then I thought that a need to change the Labour Party Constitution hardly warrants the term crisis. Said Constitution was and I quote “AMENDED ON 18 APRIL 2010, 15 APRIL 2012 AND 30 NOVEMBER 2013” so changes are routine enough.
August 19, 2015
John: “If Labour MPs refused to co-operate with the Leader the members/voters chose then they would have a constitutional crisis of some magnitude”.
Would they ? Corbyn himself has voted against his own party whip more than 500 times (yes, 500) since he was first elected so I imagine he’d be just fine with any of his MPs voting against his policies.
August 19, 2015
Comment on the reply about de-selection: I suspect many ‘parachuted in’ Labour MP’s are a little worried. Tristram Hunt a prime example!
August 19, 2015
The reason people support Mr Corbyn, as indeed they do Mr Farage is simply because they believe that they speak their true feelings and actually answer questions, without all of the complicated spin and political correctness of their competitors.
You may not like the polices of either, but what a refreshing change to listen to people who actually speak their mind.
Even better for those who actually like their policies as well.
Mr Corbyn may well be a throw back to the idealist ideas of the 1960’s but may younger voters have no idea of the chaos that this type of thinking caused.
Those who underestimate Mr Corbyn’s mass appeal, are making a big mistake.
If you have got little or nothing, think you have little hope for the future, and see financial abuse by those who you perceive already have it all, then who could blame them for turning to someone who promises them some hope and a rather easier life, by promising them more than the little they have.
History is littered with such examples.
Reply Mr Farage’s party commanded 12% in the last General election, and Labour with the promise of Mr Corbyn is down to 30% and falling.
August 19, 2015
UKIP really commands more like 30%+ as we saw in EU elections. The FPTP voting system (as you well know) forces people to vote for others in general elections, in order to keep other worse options out.
Cameron only narrowly won due to UKIP voters voting tactically and the fear of an SNP tail wagging a Miliband dog – as I predicted he would.
August 19, 2015
reply to reply
Yes, such has been the power of spin and hype in rewarding the likes of Blair, Mandelson and Cameron (3 particularly magnificent practitioners of the art).
What you aren’t getting is that their days are numbered.
Rejoice!
August 19, 2015
Alan Jutson ,
You are right that the young are trapped between a rock and a hard place .
The situation is much worse than most of them seem to realise .
They seem blissfully unaware that they are going to be destitute in old age and will most likely be offered a pill to put themselves out of their misery .
The young’s strategy , formulated after 11 years of dumbed down state indoctrination , seems to be “stick you head in the sand and hope for the best” .
Edward Heath , James Callaghan look seriously appealing compared with what the main parties are offering now .
The union mob cannot be tamed . They brought down supposedly their own man in James Callaghan . Mr Corbyn must know they would do the same to him ?
August 19, 2015
Yes, I agree with you.
Corbyn’s appeal is like that of Farage, and Sturgeon, and indeed Thatcher.
They put forward what they believe in, rather than what they believe people want to hear. Cooper and Burnham are simply disingenuous careerists.
If Corbyn wins, he will be a real threat to the Tory party, as Zac Goldsmith has pointed out. Even if he doesn’t win, he has changed the Labour party because his platform cannot be ignored.
August 19, 2015
Dear Micke–The real Labour Party may just up and walk away in to a new SDP leaving a pure navel-gazing far left ineffective and powerless Rump Party. Sounds good to me.
August 19, 2015
Alan Jutson; “Mr Corbyn may well be a throw back to the idealist ideas of the 1960ās but may younger voters have no idea of the chaos that this type of thinking caused.”
Whilst many people who keep trotting out such a version of the 1960s either have vestige reasons to rubbish anything pre 1979 and the ‘opportunities’ Thatcherism brought them, or (increasingly) do not have any more of an idea than you suggest Corbyn supporters do.
August 19, 2015
Jerry
As you yourself pointed out, the failure of Labour and the Heath governments in the late 60″s and through the 70’s resulted in 3 million unemployed by the 1980’s.
You and Corbyn would like to do the same again? What is laughable Jerry is you keep telling people to learn from history.
You are a parody account aren’t you?
August 20, 2015
@libertarian; There was 1.5 million (and falling) unemployed in May 1979, the spike to 3.5m plus came in the early to mid 1980s. Whilst other countries also suffered from the same international economic problems (such as the oil shocks of the 1970s) and issues their governments chose to support such troubled industries, not shut them down [1] with a promise of jam tomorrow (a high tech and services economy), hence why Germany and France still has a buoyant if not thriving ship building industry, a car industry (that is, the companies are owned) etc.
[1] or sell them off so that they could be asset stripped and then closed down
August 21, 2015
Jerry
Oh dear oh dear oh dear
Is there no facet of business and history that you are actually familiar with?
Through the late 60’s and early 70’s the LABOUR government closed 100’s of coal mines and shipyards. I’ve told you this so many times now. Once these industries were nationalised there was no need for so many of them as no competition , so the combined nationalisation and closure of vast areas of high employment industries caused the problem. By the time they had finished unemployment had gone from 1.5 to 3 million. Its called cause and effect and the effect takes time to filter through.
Quote from a newspaper report on German shipbuilding
“Germany’s dockyards are in a bad way. Six shipbuilding companies have recently filed for bankruptcy and others are fighting for their future.The industry has been hit hard by the global economic crisis, which saw orders grind to a halt, and competition from Asia is also worrying German companies.”
You seemed to miss the bit where the French moved from coal to nuclear energy.
By the way there are now far more people employed in the UK in high tech and service industries than were ever employed in heavy industry, so you’re wrong about that too
This is why socialism is such a poor economic philosophy. It is always about stasis , and lacking in vision. Jerry the world evolves, economies evolve, we grow, ALL people become wealthier, healthier and longer lived. This is entirely due to a willingness to reinvent and create new markets. Government control of business always results in tractor stats, beetroot picking and other stale non jobs. Why do you think that the UK who once led the world in buggy whip and naval cannonball manufacture no longer have these industries?
August 20, 2015
Libertarian.
I think Jerry is Uanime 5 in disguise !
Very, very similar arguments.
Welcome back Uanime 5 long time no hear, but same arguments, same views.
August 20, 2015
@alan jutson; Who or what is/was “Uanime”?! Someone else who disagreed with you I guess, before my time, and I don’t do sock-puppets either – sorry to disappoint.
August 19, 2015
Jerry
If you lived and worked through the 60’s and 70’s then you would understand why Margaret Thatcher was a breath of fresh Air for this Country with many (not all) of her polices at the time.
The Unions simply had too much power during those times, and most of those officers in influential positions were simply hard core Socialist or Communist minded, that just wanted more, and more, and more.
How do I know ?
I was a Trade Union member for a number of years, and indeed for a few years a Union Shop Steward at the time as well (but one who tried their best to act in a responsible manner).
A visit to Union Branch meetings where few turned up other than the hard line left wing who gloated over setting the agenda for conflict was then the norm.
Yes of course people should have the right and protection of Union membership if that is what they wish, especially if they think the Union will help to protect working conditions in a sensible manner.
Yes of course people should have safe working conditions with reasonable pay.
Yes of course people have a right to protest, but you also have to remember that we live in a competitive World where each employer has to sell their goods and services to an open market, if they are not competitive,then they go out of business, simple.
If they go out of business then there are no jobs on offer to anyone at any price.
Endless conflict does nobody any good, least of all Union members.
So please do not try to spin the facts, many of us have actually been there, got the tee shirt, and have the video.
August 20, 2015
@alan jutson; Nonsense, German unions and workers councils etc. were even more powerful back then (and still are) but look at Germany today…
August 20, 2015
Jerry
Have you actually ever been involved first hand with any union business/negotiations/working arrangements/settlements/disputes.
Have you ever run your own business or employed/managed anyone.
I guess not from your rather one sided view.
British Unions were destructive against industry, and eventually destroyed many jobs with their actions.
German Trade Unions were rather more constructive, so both parties gained something.
Seems you have learned absolutely nothing from past history.
August 20, 2015
A lot of German unions work with, and not in conflict with, the management of the companies for mutual benefit in stark contrast to the more militant unions in UK. (I am sure some of the UK managements are rather less willing to engage and really one breeds the other).
Fortunately in UK there are examples in large companies, many foreign owned and using their culture rather than ours, where a more collaborative working is practiced for the good of all, recognising profit is required to offer good job security.
Alan Jutson makes some excellent points about what a good union should be doing. Many of these are quiet Tory values: safety, good pay, stability & security as best as possible whilst recognising the continual need to adapt, profit benefitting all, input from all to making the enterprise a success etc… Maybe it could be shown that a centre-right trade union type movement can exist and work – indeed here in Belgium there are 3 trade unions that are more politically aligned than anything else, so I could join one which is loosely aligned to Christian Democratic politics should I wish. Why not in UK? It would help show there is a better way to advance all workers life that hard left confrontational shouting, i.e. a way that actually works!
August 20, 2015
@alan jutson; “British Unions were destructive against industry, and eventually destroyed many jobs with their actions.”
It always takes two to tango as they say…
@CdBrux; “A lot of German unions work with, and not in conflict with, the management of the companies”
Yes and a lot of German companies do likewise with the unions because they understand that they need a contented workforce to succeed. As I’ve often said, UK management and unions need to be more like they are in Germany, not at continual war with the “them and us” attitudes.
August 21, 2015
For crying out loud Jerry
Are you 12 ? Go and find out about the real world please
Germany’s main trade unions have been haemorrhaging members for some time: membership to Deutscher Gewerkschaftsbund, the country’s largest umbrella union, has plummeted by 5 million since 1990.
Read the WHOLE article here & its from the Gruniad so is allowed in your timeline too I presume.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/31/germany-trade-unions-model-disaster
August 21, 2015
@libertarian; “[../more personal abuse/..] Go and find out about the real world please”
Unlike you that is what I already do!
” [a guardian.com citation]”
Thanks for posting a link to an opinion piece in a mostly Blairite supporting newspaper, Also should we assume that you are also now a devout AGW (man made climate change) supporter, seeing that the Guardian carries articles that “prove” AGW…
Have another go at proving your assertions but a publication such as Der Spiegel (the international edition will do) might be a better starting point…
August 20, 2015
Dear Jerry, In the 1960s Labour represented hope, as in 1997, but with some individual exceptions such as the Open University and the fleet of British designed atomic power stations, it was hope disappointed.
What concerns me is what happened to Labour after the 1979 election. Forget that honourable romantic Michael Foot. It was the forces pushing behind him, from the new generation of socialist intellectuals to the Militant Tendency, that could potentially have destroyed the economy and living standards.
To be honest, I thought it was a media Red Scare until I read a book called “Manifesto: A Radical Strategy for Britain’s Future”, written by a collective of quite prominent and influential Left people at the time (initially including Robin Cook). The Red Scare was very much a frightening reality.
If you have not done so I recommend you to read it (still available at one penny plus P&P). Of course some of the analysis is fair and one or two proposals have been carried out, but much of it echoes the same themes, attitudes and policies that animate the “New Left” that has emerged recently and is backing Mr Corbyn. Just replace “New Labour” with “Revisionism”.
To me, their programme seems to have virtually nothing in common with the present needs or future aspirations of most families earning average or below-average incomes.
The key difference between the 1980s Left and today is that leaving the then EEC was the essential prerequisite for a radical Left programme, not least because “the mechanisms of free trade and multinational business are destroying Britain’s economy”.
Many of your past comments on Mr Redwood’s blog have been in strong support of the EU. Mr Corbyn, while resurrecting Clause 4, does not yet quite dare to envisage quitting the EU. But it seems to me that “Brexit” would be quite as much a prerequisite for his domestic programme as it was for the Left of 1981.
August 20, 2015
@outsider; “To me, their programme seems to have virtually nothing in common with the present needs or future aspirations of most families earning average or below-average incomes.”
Trouble is, those same words could be used against both the Tory and UKIP manifestos too, by those who will/would be most affected.
“But it seems to me that āBrexitā would be quite as much a prerequisite for his domestic programme as it was for the Left of 1981.”
If you are attempting to place Corbyn at the table with the Militant Tendency then surely that doesn’t stack up, as Corbyn in 1983-6 was still a very insignificant first term MP, many older and wiser, more significant, Labour MPs got kicked out of the party or at least deselected, due to their links to the MT, I doubt had JC been involved in the MT he would have lasted 5 seconds – but that will not stop the right wing, nor the Blairite left MSM from painting him as some latter-day Militant Tendency messiah.
August 20, 2015
Oh Dear Jerry. No, I see Jeremy Corbyn more as the outdated romantic, honourable at the personal level but careless in his associations. Neither he, nor the brilliant Robin Cook were Trots, nor were the Establishment academics who mostly wrote “Manifesto” in 1981.
And do you really think that Mr Corbyn’s programme is feasible within the EU? Nationalising German, French or Spanish utilities for instance?
By the way Jerry, there were I think only ever three alleged Militant MPs so I am not sure who the “many older, wiser and more significant MPs” you mention might have been.
August 20, 2015
@outsider; “I see Jeremy Corbyn more as the outdated romantic, honourable at the personal level but careless in his associations”
Don’t worry, I see you and a lot of others on our hosts site (and in his party) as “old romantics” too, “honourable at the personal level but careless in [their] associations” wedded to “TINA” as you and they are.
“do you really think that Mr Corbynās programme is feasible within the EU”
No, probably not, but I’m really not sure what your point is, isn’t that want many on here want?! I have already read one comment to the effect that the poster would ‘vote for Corbyn’ (presumably at a GE) if it would result in an assured Brexit…
August 20, 2015
” Labour with the promise of Mr Corbyn is down to 30% and falling.”
That’s probably true at the moment! The Labour Party is in a state of virtual civil war, so if there is any surprise, it is that its support is only down a few percent from the May figure.
But that war should end soon once a clear winner has emerged from the fracas.
After that it could be a different story, especially if I’m right that another economic storm is brewing up in China the US and elsewhere, which could have serious consequences for the UK’s private sector debt addicted economy.
August 19, 2015
There are reported to be around 200 Afghani interpreters under sentence of death if caught by the Taliban. We the UK who used them are refusing to take them in. Please prod your leader with a red hot probe until he allows their immediate entry as asylum seekers to the UK, should they so wish. Infinitely more important than the will he ,won’t he, speculation about Corbyn.
August 19, 2015
Agree with this. Our treatment of Afghan interpreters stinks. Surely there is still a sense of honour in the upper echelons of the civil service and the army?
When Joanna Lumley came out in favour of the Ghurkas, there was general public and media support. This case is not dissimilar.
August 19, 2015
I concur. I worked closely with several ‘terps in Iraq and Afg (as well as LEC mechanics, drivers, etc; all were brave, honourable, principled people, with a huge sense of humour, and despite the fact that they were volunteers and were reasonably paid, if they are currently under threat they should be looked after.
August 19, 2015
Agricola
Absolutely agree with your points, indeed I have mentioned this very situation more than once recently on this site in that last couple of weeks, and indeed many months before that.
Three things spring to mind here:
We are refusing to help people who actually helped us to fight a War, and who knowingly put their, and their families lives at risk in doing so.
Do we really think others are going volunteer to help us in any future conflict, when we have a record of abandonment of such people to the enemy.
To allow such people entry, is simply is the right thing to do in the circumstances.
Meanwhile we seem to allow illegals to roam the Country at will, give them food shelter, spending money, and medical treatment, pending another future appearance before a tribunal some time in the future if they turn up.
What a crazy system we have.
We look after the illegals, but do nothing to stop our friends and allies from being captured, tortured, and killed.
August 19, 2015
@agricola; Totally agree and what is more I suspect that Mr Corbyn would do the right thing for these Afghan interpreters, a pacifist or not. Funny how Russian oligarchs find sanctuary in the UK but not a those who have served in effect for Queen and country.
August 19, 2015
JR “The Economist” a few weeks ago had you as part of a photo montage crawling out from under a table preparing to do Dave in. When are you going to challenge the Conservative Party establishment over its near identical to Labour policies on the economy, welfare, immigration, defence in fact virtually everything?
Reply I do not agree with your analysis or with your account of some cartoon. I set out here how I am seeking to improve government policy. Current government policy is different from Labour on the issues you mention, and more so if Mr Corbyn wins.
August 19, 2015
Spot the difference Lab and Con are both for ..
money printing and deficit spending
renewing Trident and getting involved in foreign wars
open door immigration
more benefit spending (you even said its gone up by 3%)
remaining in the EU
August 19, 2015
That would be an exceptionally foolish thing to do. Mr Cameron continues to poll well – indeed ahead of the Conservative Party. He may not be perfect, but there are radical reforms in education and welfare, and spending is more under control than it would be if we had Labour. We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remember also that by the next election the EU question will have been settled one way or the other.
August 19, 2015
You do realise Osborne has DOUBLED the national debt? How much do you reckon Labour would have done, tripled it or quadrupled it?
August 19, 2015
I would have preferred a tougher approach to public spending in some areas, but of course the debt has increased – debt goes up for every year there is any budget deficit at all. Osborne inherited 11% from Labour – worse than the bust EZ states. That was never going to be solved overnight. I have no doubt debt would be higher had Labour been in power, they have after all opposed all such spending controls as the govt have implemented.
August 19, 2015
@Richard1; “That would be an exceptionally foolish thing to do. Mr Cameron continues to poll well”
Except that Cameron has already announced that he will not be contesting the 2020 election as party leader (and perhaps not as an MP either for all we know), if so popular one has to ask why, could it be that he knows he (and his cabinet) will be as popular in 2020 as Thatcher was in 1990 -not at all, and thus a liability along with much of the parties policy bank, much of it cribbed as it is from UKIP, who are already loosing much support since May.
Reply BY 2020 Mr Cameron will have been leader for 15 years and PM for 10. He sensibly thinks that is enough for anyone as these are high pressure jobs, with plenty of other good candidates who by then might like a chance to shine.
August 19, 2015
641,000 people immigrated to the UK in 2014 including 290,000 from outside the EU. In 2011, CMD helped to destroy Libya which is now a failed state and assembly point for asylum seekers from all over Africa and the Middle East. In 2013, CMD lost a parliamentary vote to bomb Assad’s Syria which his fellow neocons would like to turn into another failed state; now CMD would like to bomb Da’ish, same country, different uniforms: CMD, heir to bliar, the people traffickers’ friend.
One reason China is growing so rapidly is that their people get nothing for nothing whereas here, unless well paid, people are entitled to state pensions as soon as they start work or even if they never start work, hence we are a magnet for the world’s low skilled and a honeypot for rentiers seeking to profit from taxpayer funded largesse. Different perceptions, similar failed policies designed to destroy our country. Is it time CMD acquired a new, improved “mainframe computer”, one that is not part of a neocon-controlled botnet?
August 19, 2015
What most of the punters here do not seem to realise is that the liberal elite is slowly reducing them into poverty. Their kids are being loaded up with debt for a job they only have a 50% chance of landing and the average graduate salary is declining. While they themselves can hardly look forward to a rosy retirement. All the changes in pensions forces them to take on the annuity and investment risks. I wish anybody who is daft enough to “liberate” their pension the best of luck. Remember since “drawdown” was introduced, it really only worked for those who were seriously ill. Annuity rates did not improve and the markets have not been anything but volatile since 2000 onwards.
Just to illustrate the above, a recently qualified NHS consultant doctor would be pulling in around Ā£75k p.a. Assuming they had no other debts, what sort of house could they afford? Up in the North it would be hardly be anything that would reflect their level of education and I presume in the SE it would be in a street nobody would want to live in? NB its only a few disciplines that allow for private work so do not try and factor in BUPA earnings for everybody.
August 19, 2015
Compare this to Nurse Practitioner lone worker, fully autonomous in diagnosing , prescribing and taking full responsibility at Ā£18,000 PA and most able to answer Dr’s fellowship papers fairly easily, sorry the public havn’t a clue. It is a case of Professional snobbery earns them more than enough
August 19, 2015
Forthurst – if your figures are correct and no doubt they probably are, if 641,000 people immigrated to the UK in 2014 including 290,000 from outside the EU how in heaven’s name can our politicians simply ignore the facts, I stress facts, that in order to live in this country each and every one of them will require energy, water, food and probably at some point the services of the NHS – let alone somewhere to live. Madness, utter madness rules us and not one of the so-called leading politicians seem prepared to face up to the reality of what is happening.
Let us say that 33% of them will require a room, house or whatever in which to live i.e. around 224,000 new or existing (!) accommodations will be needed just to match last years’ intake, let alone those still coming in. Are we building enough houses for UK citizens, let alone those coming past, present and future? Answer, NO, not by a long chalk.
Are our energy provision plans meeting the requirement? Answer, NO, not in the slightest.
Is the NHS world service equipped, now and in the future to meet the requirement? Answer, NO.
And so it goes on, none of our leaders prepared to face up to facts and the future, without stern and positive action on their part to reign in what is happening we face a bleak future. And if if Mr Corbyn wins, as I have earlier said, I think that the possibility of us facing another winter of discontent to add to our troubles are likely as strike and other union actions get under way with his support.
Reply Of course migration is too numerous and the government has says it intends to reduce it. However, these are gross figures. If someone has left the country then their home/water supply etc is available for a new arrival.
August 19, 2015
“If someone has left the country then their home/water supply etc is available for a new arrival.”
The ONS does not publish stats of how many heads of households left.
August 19, 2015
Thank you John – I confess that I had not considered the number of those leaving the UK but am not sure that they offset, to any significant degree, the ever increasing demand for homes, services and so on. I remain unconvinced that the government has, or will be able to, reduce the intake to sensible levels consistent with our already inadequate housing and other resources.
Reply Net migration is under half gross migration.
August 19, 2015
“Reply Net migration is under half gross migration.”
..and who are leaving? Typically, well qualified English people.
August 19, 2015
I suspect emigrants inntend by and large to return home whereas most immigrants from Libya etc. don’t.
August 20, 2015
@Martyn G; We need to start counting the economic activity amounts migrants and the indigenous population on a sector-by-sector base as much as the numbers.
Around here, broadly agriculture with some light and medium industry, we have a very large number of migrant labour (mostly from the EU but some from further afield) but the vast majority are working in either the aforementioned agriculture sector or in health care (both NHS and private), all doing jobs that many the indigenous population adult has no wish to do.
By all means cut back on immigration, but do remember to tell those school leavers with their now worthless GCSEs, and even young adults leaving Uni’ with equally worthless degrees) that it will not be that nice cushy pen-pushing job for them but a foreseeable future of spending all day cutting fruit and veg, perhaps bending over for most of the day, or for those finding employment in health care, a foreseeable future of cleaning up after the old and ill, sluicing bedpans and what ever.
August 19, 2015
This election is by AV, so there is little point in any candidate standing down in order to consolidate the anti-Corbyn vote. Either Corbyn will get more than 50% of the first preference votes, in which case the contest is over, or the candidate with the fewest first preferences will be eliminated and her support will be transferred to other candidates according to the second preferences which her supporters have expressed by putting “2” against their names. (I say “her” not from any political correctness but because that will almost certainly be Kendall.) Then if Corbyn is still below 50% the next candidate at the bottom will be eliminated in the same way. It will almost be as if those two candidates had stood down, not exactly but close enough to make it pointless for any of the opponents of Corbyn to remove themselves from the ballot paper as some have suggested.
Much more significant than the anti-Corbyn votes being split is the likelihood that the pro-Corbyn votes will be inflated by registered electors who should not have been allowed to vote, the same as for the proposed EU referendum using the register for general elections including people who are not citizens, and who should not be allowed to vote in a referendum ostensibly intended to discover the will of the British people.
August 19, 2015
Denis – We have a majority Tory government. I don’t know why we are banging on about Labour.
Is it to distract from the fact that the Tories are unsuitable to run the country too ?
August 19, 2015
And no election planned for four years and eight months, by which time some of the policies being proposed by Corbyn will have became irrelevant.
August 20, 2015
@Denis Cooper; “by which time some of the policies being proposed by Corbyn will have became irrelevant.”
How, unless you are suggesting that democracy its self will be no more, and here I mean domestic UK democracy, not your often suggested vision of what the EU will become at the hands of the eurocrats as the UK can leave Le Club any time we wish under UN rules on the right to national self determination, so the only way Corbyn’s or anyone else’s policies will become “irrelevant” is if our own democracy dies.
August 19, 2015
Far too many people in the centre of politics come from similar backgrounds. The candidate selection process is biased in favour of people bowing down to the same centre group, for seats and also for cabinet/shadow cabinet posts. Brown/Blair/Clegg/Cameron/Osbourne are all too similar, there is no real reflection of the variety of views in the pubs up and down the land. The centre ground of all these main parties, and the journalistic bubble, has decided certain unalienable truths amongst themselves without engaging with the people, understanding what’s going on in the real world, or any real world experience. The centre ground consensus is not supported by the real people of this country. So in topics as diverse as immigration, take it or leave it healthcare and schools, the way the trains were privatised, anti-driver speed camera and other persecution, housing, and yes Europe you will find that the normal distribution of views expressed by ordinary decent people up and down the land is not reflected in our politicians. Not only that the top of the ordinary distribution bell curve of the ordinary people’s views is nowhere near the accepted wisdom imposed on us by the main parties. Democracy is a joke for all to see, the North East no to devolution referendum has been ignored, the majority that didnāt want any further devolution to Scotland at all have been ignored completely, lots of the promises of the main parties at election time are false promises that they have not got the slightest intention of following up on.
Corbyn is not expressing views I support BUT he is expressing views expressed by decent people up and down the land elsewhere in the bell curve of normal distribution of views different to those narrow pre-determined and delivered to us from on high by the “centre ground” of the main parties. He will get support not because of his policies or abilities but because he is not trotting out the same old accepted wisdoms many of which are clearly wrong, and everyone from all sides of the political spectrum can see they are wrong.
Corbyn is vulnerable for the same reasons he is strong. The top of the bell curve of opinions of ordinary people is in favour of much tougher action on immigration, it wants much more power in patient’s hands, it wants much more consumer choice in school selection, it wants more freedom and power in individual citizen’s hands and not the states. Problem is the main political bubble is not really anywhere near these opinions either.
August 19, 2015
By default if you were a Labour supporter you could not vote for anybody else but Corbyn. FFS the Oxbridge degree and no proper job model of the modern party leader is a busted flush. Two of them with their ministerial and expenses track records should be out of contention straight away. One of my nephews failed the Oxford interview this year. The best consolation I gave him was do you really want to end up like one of those ******* you see at Westminster?
Reply Most Oxford grads do not become MPs and most MPs did not go to Oxford
August 20, 2015
A few things are clear.
1 PPE as a grounding for our national leaders is now totally discredited. The people who organise and run these degree courses really need to be told to rethink and encourage people to have a proper grounding in some bleeding obvious things that they donāt get at the moment.
2 The big political parties allowing a career path of college->researcher->policy wonk->candidate->MP->Minister need to recognise this is not giving them the calibre and breath of candidates they need to convince the voters, and perform well in the modern world. We as a country need to do a whole lot better than this to be able to compete. There needs to be a lot more entry of candidates with real world experience in a wider range of fields, and a lot more entry of older people who have done other things in their life.
3 The old boys network, being given jobs because of your parents contacts, and so on is alive and well in the UK far more than other countries. Oxbridge is part of the problem here. We need more of a meritocracy in both our political class and business leaders.
These issues are at the heart of our ability to compete well as a country because we need to ramp up the quality of people to stand a chance in the modern world.
Reply A large number of MPs come into the Commons after a successful career in some other field, and most did not go to Oxbridge. Recent Conservative recruits include army officers, lawyers, accountants, people who have set up and run their own businesses, GPs etc
August 20, 2015
I donāt think you need to be so defensive. Everything I said is factual and obvious from the facts around us. I didnāt criticise any individuals, and I am not in the business of putting people down from different backgrounds. Your response is the usual knee jerk response politicians give in response to such feedback, you can do better than that. We collectively need to do a whole lot better here. And importantly if the Conservative party had a more believable pro meritocracy message that would neuter a lot of the Labour/SNP rhetoric, you see I think good Conservatives should believe that if you have the merit you should get on.
August 19, 2015
Labour is in disarray . I cannot see how they can climb out of the severe rut they are in – none of the candidates on offer can provide the vision and leadership to reinstate them into any credible shape to challenge and to gain the trust of the electorate . Corbyn is the only one with any clear message – he wants extreme socialism back . The public will not go in his direction ; they are far too independent now to put up with state control .
August 19, 2015
Is it just because its the summer or has the “independent” BBC gone completely overboard with their coverage of the Labour leadership contest? In all my life I cannot remember one political party being given such continuous access for its own benefit and seemingly unlimited daily coverage.
Before the EU referendum we shall see the same level of blanket coverage but then they will be dancing to the will of Brussels from whom they have received financial support, regardless of the virtual compulsory licence fee.
August 19, 2015
I noticed that too, seems like the BBC are making the news rather than reporting it…
August 19, 2015
Among writers, observers and commentators elsewhere there is a fairly consistent theory that after the presumed Corbyn victory, that a spasm within the party will eject Corbyn in short time leading to a collective realisation among the wider Labour Party that they got it wrong.
The actual historic evidence says nothing of the sort. The Election of Ed Miliband was seen as a course-correction at the time away from what was being seen as a contemporary obsession with the safe political centre (a perfectly reasonable contention, in my opinion). Notwithstanding the power-base from which Miliband gained that temporary advantage, that momentum has now coalesced into a fairly clear departure in previous direction resolutely leftward.
My opinion is that even if Corbyn was defeated at the ballot box in 2020, let alone be deposed during a schism in that party earlier, that the membership (who would presumably conduct a theoretical future Leadership election under the same rules) would react with a degree of contrary petulance. I would more predict a continuity of the same far-left, divisive characters. Diane Abbott would appear to be a more likely outcome as that future leader rather than some form of moderate unity candidate.
The left in the UK have a poor record of self-awareness. A rejection of, or a resounding defeat of Corbyn will always be everyone else’s fault – within that leftist tendency, there has been no revisionist history of the landslide defeat of Foot in ’83. ‘They’ were right, ‘everyone else’ got it wrong. (A cultural trait the LibDems share in abundance). There is as yet no sign of a conscious awakening from that self-applied delusion.
August 19, 2015
Alas, John, the present government has its problems on honesty too. Consider today’s newspapers covering two points:
1) The Transport Minister Perry made claims about cheap rail tickets ( Ā£15 between Manchester and London) whose existence is not to be found;
2) The Department of Work and Pensions have ‘made up’ leaflets about people who were ‘pleased’ that they were sanctioned. It seems upon investigation that these people do not exist. Yet, as a newspaper editorial pointed out, the DWP makes a big deal about people who they claim have made up stories. Sheer Hypocrisy, but will IDS admit it?
August 19, 2015
if you track the job adverts for people to work at, or for providers into, the DWP you will notice how evermore desperate and clueless they are. their massive IT and business change programme must be in even worse state than I thought it was having spent some time with people close to it (and actually been informally asked to come help troubleshoot it)… its clear nobody half decent wants to work on it… their last set of complete failures to deliver was redefined as success. Really John how is IDS getting away with this, I don’t expect him to know how to run such programmes but I expect him to be able to spot BS and hire people who do have a clue. if the labour party are such an ineffective opposition that they cannot apply heat here then someone within the governing party really needs to be asking for a reality check.
August 19, 2015
Corbyn has attracted support because, as others have already pointed out, he speaks more plainly with less obvious spin, than the other three candidates. He also appeals to the left wing strand in British politics which sees this as a chance to put one of their own in charge of the Labour party machine. It remains to be seen whether the other three have managed to conjure up extra support through the registration process since the YouGov poll putting Corbyn well ahead. They do not deserve to have done so not least because they have failed to make much effort to demolish his arguments; they merely claim he would make Labour unelectable.
August 19, 2015
My my my. Glass houses……throwing stones…..
What kind of democracy do we have here in England John?
Essentially a choice of two parties; anyone who threatens that status quo can stand by for the most horrendous smear campaign. 4 million votes = 1 MP. 2 million votes = 59 MPs. How many LibDem Lords? 110?
I voted for a party which offered a fair referendum on EU membership – hahaha.
I voted for a party which offered fair representation for England ???!!!!???!!!
I voted for a party which would establish a British Bill of Rights. Mmmm.
I voted for a party which promised to reduce immigration and stand up to excessive financial and legislative demands from Brussels. OMG.
Your party doesn’t offer democracy, it offers a Party agenda dictated by a self-interested PM who is a PPE graduate, who has never had a proper job, and who is – frankly – far too young to have the required experience or knowledge to run a country. And while we’re on the subject of puppets of Brussels…..
August 19, 2015
It comes down to beliefs.
Corbyn obviously believes in what he is saying and sticks to his beliefs.
The other candidates don’t seem to believe in anything other than trying to win and will offer whatever they think will give them victory.
To me, Corbyn appears to be honest whereas the others don’t seem to know what they want. I wouldn’t want Corbyn as leader of Labour, let alone Prime Minister, but you have to admire someone who sticks to what he believes in. If I had a vote, I don’t think that I’d vote for any of them, I can’t envisage any of them as PM leading the country. There seem to be no one who stands out as a potential leader in the Labour party, unlike the Tories who probably have too many!
August 19, 2015
You cannot discuss parliament as it slowly falls down (literally) without coming to terms with its boss – the EU. Sorry, but there it is. The Spinelli document wants to reduce the Eurozone countries to “States” within a Federal Union with one flag, one parliament, one elected President and one anthem. We are – if we are not careful – just going to be like, say, the state of Maryland in the USA – or even worse – like Poland in the USSR.
The Labour Leaders in waiting have absolutely nothing to say about this. Nothing at all.
I would very much like to know what the leaders and movers of Europe (Mr Juncker, Dany Cohn-Bendit, Joschka Fischer, and the rest of the Spinelli Group) mean by Associate Membership. What does any British politician (even the SNP) have to tell me on that score?
“Protocol No 18 sets out the procedure for the entry into force of the Fundamental Law and a contingency plan for what happens if unanimity of ratification is not achieved. In short, EU member states which do not wish to take the federal step forward will be expected either to adopt associate membership status or to leave the Union altogether. They will be discouraged from blocking deeper integration by and for those who want it.”
“…all EU members are expected to join the euro and to play a full part in all aspects of integration. Opt-outs and derogations are discouraged in favour of the more formal, and less destabilising, associate membership. It remains for the three countries concerned, Denmark, Ireland and the UK, to make their choices.”
“Protocol No 9
Associate Membership of the Union
Article 1
1. This Protocol lays down guidelines for the negotiation and conclusion of an agreement admitting any European state to associate membership of the Union, pursuant to Article 137. The agreement will set out the terms, conditions, scope and limits of associate membership and the adjustments to the law of the Union which such association entails. The agreement may be of limited duration.
Article 2
The agreement shall commit the Associate State to respect and promote the values and principles of the Union, as laid down in Article 2. The Associate State shall not obstruct the Union from pursuing and accomplishing its goals and objectives, as laid down in Article 3. It shall be bound to respect the principle of sincere cooperation, pursuant to Article 4(3). It shall respect and promote the Charter of Fundamental Rights.”
I think these are the main plans for the future outlined in the document.
http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/fundamentallaw.pdf
August 19, 2015
Another interesting side issue is that as it stands at the moment Corbyn’s stated views on some terrorist organisations would bar him from getting security clearance. That is if he were trying to get SC as a normal worker in the defence world. So in theory he should not be allowed to get the security briefings which are normal for the leader of the opposition. I am sure the various Sir Humphrey’s will customise a solution for him, but it will also under current rules give them an excuse not to tell him a whole bunch of stuff.
August 19, 2015
Tony Benn was anti-EU wasn’t he? It does not surprise me that another hyper-leftwinger should flirt with similar ideas.
August 19, 2015
Mr Corbyn’s policies could not be enacted whilst Britain remained part of the EU .
Wouldn’t it be tremendous if he could persuade the Labour Party that Britain should revert to being a sovereign nation ?
I’d vote for Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party if I thought it would take the UK out of the EU .
Maybe people like John would even do the Enoch Powell thing and tell his supporters to put their country before their party .
August 19, 2015
At the risk of becoming like Lifelogic and posting more on this site than you do John… How about looking at the Fathers4Justice issues sometime in a post? What happens to child/father relationships after divorce is a big problem in our society, and in my view leads to lots of problems. Decent fathers and their children deserve better. And the way the political bubble has handed most of the playing cards to the mother does seem to have swung the pendulum far too far in one direction. Is it really good for society that kids are brought up with so little influence from the fathers? Its probably not the done thing in the political bubble to speak up against the bubble consensus on this but how is this area ever going to evolve if we don’t discuss it?
August 19, 2015
‘At the risk of becoming like Lifelogic’ – I thought you were Lifelogic using a different name.
Moan, whinge, gripe – are you ever positive about anything?
August 19, 2015
I think the sleeper trains to Scotland provide great service, and the staff should be in the new years honours list.
I like Eurostar.
I think the staff on the Woolwich ferry are great, and the way I have seen them help mothers with pushchairs and disabled folk onto the ferry as foot passengers has been outstanding. Friendly and helpful.
There you go have a bit of positive energy.
August 20, 2015
Well done – it’s not difficult is it?
The negativity on this blog is absolutely staggering at times (although not from JR who seems to be able to rise above it).
Most regular contributors seem to be in urgent need of a social worker.
August 19, 2015
I do hope the Tory party is not going to take its eye off the ball by gloating. Leave Labour to get on with it. The Tory party in Government have any number of issues that need to be resolved and the voters need to know what progress is being made to ensure that the Government is credible and not just playing with words.
Reply Of course, which is why most of my posts are about government and future policy. However, the stance of the official opposition does matter and will have an impact with a small majority government.
August 19, 2015
@JR reply;; “However, the stance of the official opposition does matter and will have an impact with a small majority government.”
Only if the -insert a word used by Mr Major in the 1990s- run riot within the Tory party, otherwise a majority of 12 is still a majority and is all Cameron needs, of course there might just be a lot of sticky toilet door locks in Parliament….
August 19, 2015
It is a drop-jaw surprise even to seasoned Labour Party members: the general tenor of the current beauty contest for the leadership. Backstabbing is traditionally done throughout their party behind closed doors.
Oh the fake calls for the election to be called off or slowed is used to cast doubt on an outcome the ruling group feel is inevitable and undesirable. It allows them to claim “foul!” and then to “Under” ( as they call it, yes they have developed their own vocabulary for their corrupt practices to thwart democracy: highly developed dictators ) the victorious candidate at a later date. References will later be continually made as to his election being “Fixed” or ” Giving an unreliable result” etc etc.
(words left out ed)
Mr Corbyn’s seeming success against his fellow candidates is not a surprise. I dare say many ex-Labour members who left their Party in disgust and disappointment have paid the Ā£3 as one last grasp of a straw to set things to rights.
Mr Corbyn, if he wins, irrespective of his exact policies, will be a breath of fresh air for his Party. Hopefully his opponents at all levels will then just leave the party and the whole of politics. No genuine democratic political party should accept ex-Labour members post-Corbyn victory.
Reply These wide ranging and very general allegations without any proof have been left out. If you have evidence of irregularities in the way you describe you should notify the Labour party HQ.
August 19, 2015
That would be teaching grandmother to suck eggs.
August 19, 2015
Between you me and the gatepost JR,- UKIP is suffering from an influx of ex-Labour Party people in its membership who have brought the baggage of their ex-party’s “democratic ” local branch functioning…possibly at regional level too.
No I am not going to tell UKIP HQ. In their case they possibly do not know. But it is too late for UKIP, the damage is done. Their climbing membership has halted. No medium to long term problem for the Tories. Nor Labour for that matter.
August 19, 2015
I suppose the question is; could Corbyn actually win an election? Instinctively you, me and most here would probably say of course not but imagine this – another economic crisis in the next few years, bigger than the 2007 one, from either the Eurozone or China – or both- and one which results in the public losing faith in both capitalism and centrist politicians who rush to make the same failed policy responses (bailing out banks, for instance). In that instance, is it not possible that someone like Corbyn could tap into the mood and suddenly become electable?
August 19, 2015
I’m reminded of Italia ’90 when the country was justifiably in the grip of Gazzamania .
Labour is unjustifiably in my opinion currently in the grip of Corbynmania .
Is he just going to avoid touchy subjects like those Britons who have lost their livelihood due to people coming in from abroad ?
Is he prepared to discriminate in favour of the interests of British Citizens or does left wing dogma require him to treat everyone equally ?
Can Corbyn recite sentences which are an anathema to modern politicians and very possibly now illegal like “British jobs for British workers” ?
If not then his bubble will burst .
August 19, 2015
@ADS; “Is [Mr Corbyn] just going to avoid touchy subjects”
Will he talk about such issues, yes because he already has, will he tell you want you want to hear, probably not, but you knew that already I suspect. Although to be fair much has not been reported in the MSM, I wonder why…
As for āBritish jobs for British workersā, he seems to want jobs for all, but of course that is not what you really meant is it…
August 20, 2015
Corbynmania probably has more in common with the return of Kevin Keagan to Newcastle United as manager than Gazzamania .
I’m not a fan of the Conservatives or Nulabour but Corbyn may at least mean that issues like private sector workers pensions will get an airing rather than be pushed under the carpet – or perhaps I’m being too kind to him .
Corbyn seems to suffer from the same over optimism as Osborne and Brown . He seems to concentrate on how to divide up a future pie which is in reality may not be as big as he now thinks rather than on measures which might increase the size of that pie .
Or as they say in Poland , carving the roast before it’s been caught .
August 19, 2015
This is a scenario Peter Hitchens alluded to in his recent MoS column and,with plenty of things that could go seriously wrong in both the economic and geopolitical spheres over the next five years,you can’t discount it.Governments tend to get voted out rather than in;fear and smear may not work again next time.
August 19, 2015
“might produce the wrong answer” – a bit like Ireland and the EU? There is NO democracy anymore. Dictatorship and corruption is the way from the EU downwards.
August 19, 2015
Interesting to see Nicky Morgan put out a statement that libraries are key in teaching children to read. Rather like I said on this site when we were discussing libraries. Wonder if her policy wonks have been reading this site eh.
August 19, 2015
And less than 24 hours after “Five Southampton libraries are at risk of closing after councillors voted to stop running them from next year. “
August 19, 2015
Yea maybe John could find out exactly what government policy is on libraries, and child literacy. We seem to have the Eric Pickle replacement, forget his/her name, and Nicky pulling in opposite directions. Maybe Gove knows as he still seems to know more about education than Nicky does. I am sure there are disagreements behind the scenes. Personally I still think they need to start cutting overseas aid and so much more before they cut libraries, especially in areas with sink schools.
August 19, 2015
Anyone who has ever been a member of a club or society must look at the Labour Party with amazement at the rules they arranged for membership and voting.
If they cannot organise their own party and the election of their leader competently it does not give much confidence in their ability to lead this nation.
It seems obvious that the Labour Party should simply have had a rule, as with most clubs and societies, that you cannot vote in elections the day you join.
One small sports club I belong to, has a one year delay after joining for voting and being able to propose or second another new member.
There is already speculation that there may be legal challenges to the outcome of the election.
What a mess.
August 19, 2015
@Edward2; “Anyone who has ever been a member of a club or society must look at the Labour Party with amazement at the rules they arranged for membership and voting.”
On the other hand anyone who has been involved in actually running a membership club, association or society will look at the Labour Parties problems with up-most sympathy [1], any national club, association or society would become snowed under with problems if faced suddenly with over a half million extra members joining, many of they genuinely wishing to help and support the organisation but with a relative few who are intent on destroying the organisation thus necessitating the checking of all applications.
[1] and the same would be said about the Tory party, UKIP, the LibDems or any other political party
August 19, 2015
If you create and apply the rules the Labour Party has just done, then you will get the problems they have now got.
Its quite simple Jerry.
It is stupid to allow people to join and immediately be allowed to vote in elections.
Anyone who has ever been involved in a club, society or organisation realises this.
The number of people suddenly joining is besides the point.
August 19, 2015
Jerry brings us number 5 in his series of “I haven’t got a clue how to run things”
No one with credibility devises a recruitment method that they can’t manage and I don’t know of a single membership based organisation that has ever opened up cheap membership in order to allow anyone a vote.
I think Labour did this as cynical ploy to earn a quick influx of money, especially as quite illegally they have kept the money of the people they’ve barred from voting so far.
August 20, 2015
@Edward2; @libertarian; Highly partisan comments as usual directed toward a party you both despise, about an issue afflicting all current political parties (and quite a few non-political national membership organisations and operations). Couldn’t really expect anything more I suppose, certainly not a claim examination of the factors involved in running such a large membership. What ever…
August 20, 2015
I do not despise the Labour Party at all Jerry.
I just think they have made a mess of this leadership election with the rules they have made for themselves.
I dont really care who wins.
Corbyn would be interesting as I rather like radical politics.
August 19, 2015
I’m no expert on how labour works nor a fan of it, however in my mind a leader of a political party should only be chosen by its elected members, i.e. restrict the vote to MPs only to decide who they want as their leader.
Interesting piece by Hitchens a few weeks ago that Corbyn could be bad for the Tories as having a common enemy (labour) is the strongest thing that holds them together implying that a sunk labour party under Corbyn would have many Tories fighting amongst themselves and the leaderhip.
August 19, 2015
For those familiar with USA politics Corbyn’s popularity is mirrored by the popularity of Donald Trump (extreme right) and Bernie Sanders (extreme left) in the presidential race. For the same reasons I think.
August 19, 2015
“No wonder people are fed up with aspects of contemporary politics.”
IMO all major Western countries are currently run by flip-flop weather vane politicians which is why the electorate have increasingly turned off from politics as they have no idea what they stand for. These politicians have very limited leadership qualities, no direction, no vision and no principles beyond what the next focus group tell them they need to be for the next sound bite and to court maximum perceived popularity and votes.
The problem is that this vacuum is increasing being filled by the more focused, visionary and principled extremes of the left and right of the political spectrum, which does not bode well for healthy democracies and prosperous electorates and countries.
Mr Corbyns political principals and views are not to my taste, but at least he has some, whereas IMO the other three candidates come across in that they will do anything to court popularity as an end in itself.
Politics matters and political decisions profoundly affect all of us, which is why it is so important that the electorate engage in politics and with politicians. If we don’t then we have to accept we get, what we get.
Being able to join the Labour party for Ā£3 before the 12th of August and vote, has left it wide open to Gerrymandering. It would have been much more sensible for the rules to stipulate that you have to currently be a member on the day the current leader resigns to vote. As mentioned above most clubs and societies have some sort of probationary period when you can’t vote where this has stood the test of time for the sensible governance of that organisation. Where the Labour party can’t get something like this right, it does not bode well for any good outcomes if they ever get their hands on the levers of power again.
August 19, 2015
A somewhat ironic piece by john Redwood considering the lengths the Tory europhiles in Government are prepared to go to to firstly avoid an EU referendum and secondly to influence the plebiscite – including changing normal electioneering rules to allow the government to provide new information up to the last minute. There have been whispers out of Brussels that the unelected autarchy is finding the democratic process a tiresome burden and are seeking methods by which it can be circumvented – the desolation of the Greek people being a case in point. Mr Redwood’s government has handed over powers to and granted supremacy to Brussels throughout Cameron’s leadership, and hiding behind the Lib-Dem fig leaf is no longer an option. Look the beam in your own eye, Mr. Redwood!
August 19, 2015
Off-topic, JR, I wonder whether this will help to convince you that our government should be doing everything it can to help destroy Islamic State as quickly as possible:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11811061/Islamic-State-jihadis-behead-top-archaeologist-in-Palmyra.html
“Militants from Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) have killed a revered archaeologist in the Syrian city of Palmyra, after he refused to give up the secrets of its ancient treasures.
Syrian state antiquities chief Maamoun Abdulkarim said on Tuesday that 82-year-old Khaled al-Asaad, longtime director of the Palmyra museum, was beheaded in a local square before his body was placed on display in public.”
Reply I have every wish like others to see ISIL defeated, but I do not think UK bombing raids in Syria will bring that about. I see ISIL now have taken control of a major port in Libya. Arab states with forces on the ground need to consider what to do, and Libya needs to reach a political settlement so there is a single government that can invite in other Arab military help. These are complex and difficult problems which a few UK aircraft bombing a few targets will not resolve.
August 19, 2015
John ,
And it would have to be “a few” UK aircraft bombings wouldn’t it .
Isn’t anyone in the Conservative concerned about the dismantling of our armed forces ?
August 20, 2015
It is not enough for Islamic State to be “defeated”, it must be utterly destroyed.
August 20, 2015
@Denis Cooper; “It is not enough for Islamic State to be ādefeatedā, it must be utterly destroyed.”
That will not, can not, be done by the west (even less the UK or the USA) bombing any Arab country, even less putting western boots on the ground, that will do only one thing, fuel the very fire of ISIL and their related groupings.
August 19, 2015
I love your loyalty to the Conservatives
August 19, 2015
You are a bit hard on Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham, both of whom want a ‘broad church’ Labour Party. The sort of leader that could take Labour to victory would be one who (a) was a bit Eurosceptic (b) was prepared to control immigration (c) was middle of the road about wanting a ‘Big State’ and prepared to define it and (d) admitted that some tax rises were needed to finance it. Labour would also probably benefit if it promised to get rid of ‘ring fencing’ when doling out the misery.
So who fits the bill? None of the people standing. A youthful version of Graham Stringer or Kate Hoey would be best for them.
August 20, 2015
@Lindsay McDougall; “[people] are a bit hard on Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham, both of whom want a ābroad churchā Labour Party.”
No they are not, why, because in the words of Tony Benn (used many years ago in an interview) they are being political Weather-Veins, not Sign-Posts, swinging what ever way the political winds of change are, as you imply yourself they are trying to be all things to all people. This country needs some conviction politicians as party leaders once again, not the all things to all people mash-ups we have had since the 1990s, hence why parties of (previous) protest are moving mainstream, such as UKIP, the SNP, the Greens and now what appears to be a reawakening of conviction politics within the Labour Party.
August 21, 2015
It depends on what the convictions are. Enoch Powell and Tony Benn, definitely two Sign-Posts, had contrasting views and styles. Enoch’s voice was menacing and he never took any prisoners, but when you read what he wrote it was perfectly rational. Tony Benn was all sweet reasonableness, but when you read what he had said, it was clear that the man (had bizarre views ed).
August 19, 2015
“How credible is Labourās passive acceptance of all things EU? What does Labour now think of its immigration policies of the last decade? Has Labour found England on a map yet or recognised our flag?”
Mr. Redwood is absolutely correct to be asking these questions.
Sadly, however, the Conservative Party is no different to Labour when it comes to these issues.
In fact there is more chance of a Labour Party led by Mr. Corbyn returning to being an anti EU party, as it was for many years before Mr. Blair became their leader, than for the corporate led Conservative Party to become a party wishing to leave the EU.
August 20, 2015
I think part of Corbyn’s appeal is it gives Labour supporters the chance to “punish” their leadership without much downside – they will be in opposition for 5 years at least so it does not do much harm to have Corbyn for a few years. Likewise the big UKIP vote in the EU elections was partly a risk-free way for Conservative and Labour voters to “punish” their own party leaders. Another chance is coming up – those who voted for Cameron while holding their noses can embarrass him by voting Out in the EU referendum – with support from Corbyn and the militant Unions (always traditionally anti-EU) I think the vote could be won. For that reason I assume Cameron will postpone it until December 2017 in the hope something will turn up.
August 20, 2015
the bought and paid for mainstream media, on cue , foaming at the mouth and now chucking the antisemite trump card. The elite don’t want this guy, they are apoplectic. But the internet keeps pulling their pants down and given the other side of the story.
As John Kerry said, the internet is making it hard to govern. They’ll have to find a pretext to control it.