The defence of democracy

I wish to live in a tolerant society, where we settle our differences through argument, debate and votes. I do not wish to make windows into men’s souls. All should be free to practice their own religion, adopt their own belief system, or to exempt themselves from religious activity. All that we ask is that people who live in our society accept our basic belief in freedom and respect the freedoms of others.
We also all have to accept the democratic constraints on our freedom placed by lawmakers we have elected and laws we consent to. Where we do not like the laws we obey them for the time being and campaign for their repeal or amendment. We outlaw violence of one against another. We make illegal any attempt by force to impede another’s freedom of belief and speech. We set rules we must all obey to ban speech which can turn people to violence and hatred.

The recent mass murders in Manchester and London have made some people angry as well as worried. All of us who want to uphold our democracy are united in condemning the actions of the murderers and their assistants and tutors if they had any. Hate speech against those who had nothing to do with the atrocities and share our loathing of the murders makes things worse.

I am being urged by some to ask the government to take stronger action. There is no doubt that the government will continue to improve and strengthen its response to extremist violence. The Prime Minister spoke for the many yesterday when she said ŵe must confront the extremist ideology that fuels these crimes and must strengthen our response. We may need more people in Intelligence, monitoring individuals who arouse suspicions, and following up leads and information passed to the authorities by others. It may be that better use could be made of information collected at our borders, as we should be alarmed by individuals who go to places abroad with terrorist training camps, if we have reason to worry about the individuals intentions anyway. We need to ask how an asylum seeker from a dangerous country to whom we have granted asylum feels free to journey back to that very country that he said would damage him. Has he abused our hospitality and kindness if he goes back there? There does need to be better controls over the dissemination of terrorist techniques and incitements to murder.

There are no simple or cheap solutions to rooting out terrorists from our midst. Some were born here. Some have come here more recently, but were not known as potential terrorists when they arrived. If they are known then of course they should be banned from entry. We wish to live in an open and free society, where we welcome in tourists, friends and family for visits without too much hassle. We want our universities to offer courses to foreign students, our companies to have extensive business links with overseas markets and company personnel. I do not wish to live in an armed camp, closed to the world, because of the risks of terrorism. Our best ally for safety lies in ourselves, reporting and assisting the authorities where there are grounds for suspicion. The Intelligence services have a big task to perform, and will I am sure be strengthened further. We need to ask all men and women of good will, especially those in education and in contact with those who are exploring these evil beliefs to be ever vigilant and concerned for the safety of the wider community.

The government has introduced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation measures to replace Control Orders, which the courts had made difficult to deploy. These deal with people who may pose a threat. There are also Temporary Exclusion Orders to stop people returning to the UK if they might be a threat. There are powers to allow cancellation of UK citizenship for dual nationals who might come to the UK and be a threat. Some UK nationals have their passports removed if they are planning travel to countries where they might be seeking training as terrorists. Violent foreigners can of course be denied entry to the UK.

Published and promoted by Fraser Mc Farland on behalf of John Redwood, both at 30 Rose Street Wokingham RG40 1XU

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104 Comments

  1. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    Its interesting to see this morning that four Middle Eastern countries have cut links with Qatar over ‘terrorism’ support”. Why are the Western democracies not putting serious pressure on the states to stop their nationals supporting terrorism? Qatar is particularly vulnerable here as it will be looking to the West to protect it from any future threat from Iran. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40155829

    Mrs May also needs to apply some common sense as to how the UK is kept secure. If someone who is on a terrorism watch list and is making trips outside of the UK. Where is the money coming from for the flights? From what we know of the current perpetrators they either on benefits or hold low paying jobs. You do not need to be Sherlock Holmes to think that there is something suspicious here. Finally if you are going to leave our borders open to anyone who wants to come here you have to have basic information on them like how old they are.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40155829

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:18 am | Permalink

      Is Qatar being scapegoated by the Saudis though?I can understand the others -Egypt and the UAE are,for instance, at odds with Qatar and Saudi over who to support in Libya.

    • Hope
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:21 am | Permalink

      A far better and more positive article can be read in the Daily Mail by Richard Littlejohn. He advocates positive action that can be taken rather than the rhetoric of inaction. I would urge politicians to read it, it might give them a clue what ought to be done and stop making inaccurate statements about the intent of the terrorism and by whom.

    • stred
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      The Mancunian one took a student loan, didn’t turn up, went to Libya a few times and is now a bad debt.

  2. Ed Mahony
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    Good, balanced article

    We can act like bunny rabbits (bleeding heart appeasing liberals)
    We can act like monsters (like the Nazis, like the terrorists)
    Or
    We can act like human beings – being objectively tough when required but not in a way that leads to greater, as opposed to lesser, danger in the long-run.

    I strongly believe we can defeat this terrorism as long as we remain resolute with calmness and level-headedness.

    • rose
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:57 am | Permalink

      We also need to acknowledge that we are living in a period of extreme permissiveness, more extreme than anything in the past. At the same time we are admitting people from countries where the opposite pertains. How did the government and civil servants not thnk there might be a problem with this?

      • Dennis
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

        “At the same time we are admitting people from countries where the opposite pertains. How did the government and civil servants not think there might be a problem with this?”

        Didn’t they do the same in the 1950s? I’ve tried to find out but not succeeded but I bet….

        As the British were in India for 400 years you would think someone in govt when deciding to import nationals from the sub continent would know something about what might happen here and if so how to deal with it. For example – sunni/shia conflicts, polygyny, caste conflicts, Muslim sect conflicts (Ahmadiya etc.), Talaq divorce, child marriage, Hindu requirement to be cremated outside, Sikh law breaking re crash helmets etc.

        Luckily there hasn’t been much of this and compromises have been made but had any of this ever been discussed by civil servants at the time, I don’t think so but can’t get to any records.

    • Timaction
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

      Indeed. But unless Mrs May’s “Enough is enough” comment turns to actual actions more British citizens and visitors will die and be maimed at the hands of Islamic extremists.
      I saw Amber Rudd refuse to say how many Temporary Exclusion Orders had been issued to those returning from Isis locations on the Marr Show. It is reported at least 400 have returned from Syria and elsewhere. The answer it turns out is one. Just one!!!!
      The Government are not and will not protect the British people from extremists. They’d rather waste £12 billion of our taxes on foreign aid whilst cutting 20,000 police officers since 2010. The entire police budget for England and Wales is £8.5 billion.
      So the Tory priority is safeguarding foreign causes whilst refusing to protect its own because of political correctness.

  3. Caterpillar
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    I want to live in a fully integrated, post-theistic society. I want to see a Government strategy that will deliver this, even if it takes a couple of generations. Enough is enough, it is time to grow up.

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:32 am | Permalink

      I do not want to live in a post theistic society, thank you for the offer. And neither do an awful lot of your fellow countrymen.
      Belief in God has done us proud over the centuries and I look forward to continuing that special relationship.

      • Richard Hobbs
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

        Me too.

      • Caterpillar
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        Mike Stallard, yes the Government would have to avoid creating more feelings of alienation. This is why I think it would take generations.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:36 am | Permalink

      It is indeed time to grow up.

      Babies and children are babies and children with young & vulnerable minds. Evolution tends to make them trust what their parents tell them however daft that is (for their own safety and survival).

      They are not young Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists they are not “owned” by their parents.

      If they are allowed to make up their own minds, as they grow up, rather than being indoctrinated from birth things might be rather better. But clearly some versions of religions are far more dangerous and evil than others.

      • Caterpillar
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

        Yes.
        .

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:12 am | Permalink

      Been tried before, Hitler called his fully integrated post theistic society the volksgemeinshchaft. When you turn your back on god you end up with someone like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

      • Caterpillar
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

        Just because this has followed, does not mean it does follow. The unquestioned and unquestionable knowledge from authority is, I think, (one of) the problem(s), I do not see why we can’t ask how to progress from this without ending up with a dictator.

  4. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    ‘Some have come here more recently, but were not known as potential terrorists when they arrived’

    Agree but this is the problem when we take in asylum seekers. Nearly all those coming into Europe as illegal immigrants claiming asylum have no papers on them. We do not know who any of them are or what their real intentions are. This is unacceptable. Why don’t they have papers? What are they trying to hide. It’s all well and good saying that we need more people in intelligence etc but how much is this costing and just how many are necessary to cope with the ever increasing numbers who are turning to violence. Why are some of these people who are known to the authorities allowed to keep their passports and why are they allowed to travel to Syria etc and then come back with evil intentions? The time has come for some real action against these people instead of all the sound bites and pussy footing around that we see each time.

  5. margaret
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    We are all scared of admitting that the violence is arising from the Islamic population. We will agree that the Islam religion itself dos not advocate terrorism , yet the attacks are being made in the name of Islam. The balance between what is politically correct and what is vile and violent murderous action should be readdressed.
    Areas which are populated by the Islamic race should be monitored. Mosques where ideology is discussed should not be places exempt from the monitoring process .I believe we will get on top of these hate crimes and cannot understand why anyone should behave this way and abuse our hospitality . We have given power away with our tolerance and need to see clearer.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 6, 2017 at 2:40 am | Permalink

      I and many others are not at all scared of saying such things. Politicians often are I agree.

  6. alan jutson
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    The problem we have at the moment is in some part because we have been too limp wristed, and too tolerant in the past, when people have crossed the line.

    The preachers of hate have worked their idealism into thousands of vulnerable peoples minds for decades behind the so called closed doors of meeting places, with few including the local congregation/population, politicians, police or the justice department doing anything about it, (and they did know about it) because they were frightened of being called racists.

    The Human rights argument I am afraid has been misused as a protection for the few, rather than the many.

    Time to enforce the laws we have on statute already, before we make up new ones, and may be curtail everyones freedom even more.

    • Hope
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:32 am | Permalink

      How did giving the power for councils, food standard agency and ambulance service the right to look at and monitor everyone’s internet history help prevent terrorism? Why was he power not confined to the police or better still like David Davis recommended only to the police upon application of a warrant to make sure there was a check and balance in the system. Nanny state achieving nothing to safeguard us but to make sure the thought police were in full force for political correctness. Brought to you by one (Mrs ed) May.

      • Protestant Christian
        Posted June 6, 2017 at 9:21 am | Permalink

        We have to stop sending our young men to war, it is corrupting our nation. We must stop dropping bombs on other countries.

  7. eeyore
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Key to defence against terrorism is intelligence. Yesterday Cressida Dick, the Met Commissioner, stressed how strongly we rely on the intelligence services of our allies abroad. But on Thursday all that may change.

    We may elect a government whose leading members have long and deep sympathies with states and terrorist organisations which hate our allies and seek to harm them. If we do, it is inconceivable that America and Israel, to name but two, could trust Britain as they do now.

    The ship of state always leaks. How could the Israelis co-operate with a Corbyn government knowing that whatever they say may be passed to their enemies in Hamas? Or the CIA, knowing that Tehran may hear all they tell us?

    It is ironic that idealistic young people such as respond so eagerly to Mr Corbyn were the chief victims of the outrage in Manchester. Truly they have no conception of their own interest, even in matters of life and death.

    Etc ed

    • Gary C
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:41 am | Permalink

      “It is ironic that idealistic young people such as respond so eagerly to Mr Corbyn were the chief victims of the outrage in Manchester. Truly they have no conception of their own interest, even in matters of life and death.”
      – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

      I have a son who fits that description, he went through his schooling being spoon fed the idealistic views of the leftie luvies and even after the recent terrorist atrocities seems to think shows of ‘solidarity’ such as lighting candles, laying a sea of flowers and referring to the perpetrators as cowards will make it all go away.

      My thoughts are with all those affected by the recent attacks and I worry about the kind of world our youngsters will be confronting in future.

      • Sulis
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

        Indeed and let us not forget how the EU strategically targeted our children (the young) as recipients of their propaganda because that was where they believed resistance was least. (1993, De Clercq)

        • Lifelogic
          Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

          Indeed they were right in this belief, many of the young (even the bright ones) have swallowed this EU lunacy whole.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      @eeyore; What a load of utter out of date nonsense. IS was not born out of the actions of Hamas, never mind the IRA, it was born out of the actions of the West’s right wing politicians in the UK and USA. For every action there will be a reaction, we are seeing that reaction.

      You attack Mr Corbyn (because that is all the Tories have left, play the man not the ball, we are all likely to get sent off anyway) but forget that Corbyn never supported such terror groups (he is 100% pacifist [1], he will not even kill an animal to use as food…), he merely said that we need to start talking to them – he was proved correct as that is what both the respective UK and Israel governments did.

      [1] hence his views on first strike, funny how so me on this site want the UK to be a Greater Switzerland post Brexit, were are the Swiss Nukes, never mind first strike

      • eeyore
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

        Jerry – funny you should mention that Mr Corbyn won’t “even kill an animal” for food, as though that’s something admirable. I’d been wondering whether he’d ever killed anything. It’s not so easy, not the first time anyway.

        The thing is, a national leader has to take decisions of life and death. He might have to send in troops, take responsibility for shoot-to-kill policing such as we saw the other day, possibly go to war. No leader escapes without blood on his hands and lives on his conscience.

        He might, as Churchill did, find himself obliged deliberately to sacrifice his own troops in a wider interest. In bad times even darker and more terrible decisions cross his desk; no doubt you can imagine what they might be.

        Leading countries takes iron nerves and strong stomachs. It’s no job for the faint-hearted.

      • Edward2
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

        The first attack on the West goes back decades.
        Way before the reaction to 9/11 defined by the war on terror.
        You are being taken in by people who have a poor grasp of history.
        If we were to solve every complaint they have about us they would still attack.
        The aim is global domination.

        • Jerry
          Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

          @Edward2; Care to cite the attack you mean,. along with the historical context? If you can’t, as I suspect you will not, then it is you who is being taken in “by people who have a poor grasp of history.” Rhetoric is very easy without any facts…

          • Edward2
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:04 am | Permalink

            The first attack on the twin towers in New York was in the early nineties.
            Before that there were attacks in Kenya on the American embassy and airplane hijacks beand an attack on a cruise ship.
            Just a few examples of many
            Look it up yourself and open your eyes.

          • libertarian
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

            Jerry

            Here you go

            USA – RFK assassination 1968.
            Italy – El Al Flight 426 1968.
            Greece – El Al Flight 253 1968.
            Switzerland – El Al Flight 432 1969.
            Germany – Frankfurt 1969.
            UK – Marks and Spencer 1969.
            Italy – TWA Flight 840 1969.
            UK – Zim shipping 1969.
            Belgium – El Al, Brussels 1969.
            Greece – El Al, Athens 1969.
            Germany – Munich airport 1970.
            Switzerland – Swissair Flight 330 1970.
            Various countries – Dawson’s Field hijackings 1970.
            Austria – Sabena Flight 571 1972.
            Germany – Munich Olympics 1972.
            UK – Israeli embassy 1972.

            And heres some more

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

          • Jerry
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

            @libertarian; @Edward2; ) Indeed but where’s the context, those terrorists didn’t just wake up one morning and decide to commit those acts – ask yourself why they acted that way, what drove them. Few in the UK ask why the IRA acted as they did because it is seared into our own national history as well as Eire’s, perhaps you and others need to start studying some wider international history.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 7, 2017 at 7:12 am | Permalink

            Of all your posts Jerry this to me is your most ridiculous and shocking especially after recent tragic events.
            In your attempt to wriggle towards an argument you try to claim that every terrorist attack on every nation by the evil ones in the last few decades is not their fault but someone else’s fault.
            In effect you are excusing evil terrorists actions by saying we made them do it.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 9, 2017 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; The only thing shocking is your crass ignorance, you really do seem to believe that these terrorists exist in a vacuum, that they suddenly wake up one morning and find themselves radicalised – you need to desperately read up on world history and yes sometimes that will mean understanding events perhaps 100, not just 10 or less, years ago.

            Trying to understand why terror exists is not trying to excuse or appease such terrorists, it is part of trying to understand the solution.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:45 am | Permalink

      Well said. Let’s hope it rains on Thursday and they stay in their safe spaces.

      • hefner
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:11 am | Permalink

        So you don’t want young people to play a proper role in the election. Do I have to understand that you consider only Old F.rts to be intelligent enough to cast a vote? Welcome back to the 18th century.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

          It’s free to vote
          Just get up go out and do an X

          • Lifelogic
            Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

            But not for magic money tree joker Corbyn, the dire socialist May is the only real choice alas.

  8. stred
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    It appears that one of the murderers was previously reported by neighbours and the authorities knew where to go to make arrests after many people had been mown down and stabbed, but not blown apart this time.

    In yesterday’s post, I suggested a cheaper way to intern known terrorists without upsetting liberals as much and preventing ‘schools for terrorism’. I hope you will let it be seen.

  9. Mark B
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    I wish to offer my condolences to those that have lost loved ones and a speedy recovery to the injured of that brutal attack by barbarians.

    We live in a society that slowly but surely is becoming less free. When we can no longer express feelings of outrage against those that seek to harm us and, change our very way of life, they indeed winning.

    It is the sense of powerlessness that many feel and refusal of those who have power to act in our defence that angers many. Putting more armed police, soldiers and controls around government buildings along with empty Churchillin speeches and mass shows of faux unity will not solve this. I know it and everyone else outside the Westminster and Whitehall bubble knows it.

    Our enemy is within the gates. They do not seek dialogue. They seek death. Death to us, our way of life, and themselves as they believe they will reach paradise through martyerdom. These are therefore extreme circumstances which require, perhaps, extreme measures.

    Thanks to successive governments bringing in people from parts of the world whose cultures are , to be polite, regressive. The Genie is out of the bottle and it is going to take a lot more deaths before we even begin to see those that have the power, but not the courage, begin to think the the unthinkable and make those that are currently considered the pervayors of so called hate speech really rather normal.

  10. Richard1
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    A pity Corbyn and the Labour Party are in full on mode of making political capital out of this attack, blaming it on the reduction in police numbers. In a BBC interview this am Yvette Cooper breathily asserted the same thing. Unfortunately the BBC interviewer didn’t challenge her about the 20% increase over the last two years in intelligence and related resources which surely are more specifically relevant to this.

  11. The Prangwizard
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    Some people who post here think Mr Redwood should be in a government position.

    If he had had to make a speech yesterday would this have been it? With the nation and oour lives under daily threat and attack would it have inspired us?

    A couple of my pieces which I intended for yesterday seem to have gone missing.

    As corporal Jones would say ‘They don’t like it up’em’

  12. Jerry
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Not directed at you Mr Redwood as I know that you voted against such interventions but your first paragraph is double speak. You want people here in the UK to have such freedoms yet our governments (both Lab & Con) did not and still don’t want to allow people in other countries such privilege – both Afghanistan [1] & Iraq now have major problems when it comes to being breeding grounds for radicalisation whilst Libya and now Syria have become not only recruiting Sargent’s for IS but their training grounds.

    Mrs May was utterly clueless yesterday, trying to sound storing and stable yet coming over as weak and incompetent, she should have respected her own (national) electioneering suspension rather than make a knee-jerk political address.

    How would even a Great Firewalll of the UK, replacing the internet with a North Korea styled Intranet stop radicalisation via press and broadcast media reports, are we going to censor our own news media, are we going to ban the use of Satellite TV receivers (which are not just FreeSat or Sky), never mind the use of SW radios, and thus non UK regulated broadcasters beaming their reports/propaganda directly into the homes of their audience? When will the Government start to deal with the real problem, that of their making, not try and fix the stable door once the horse has bolted.

    [1] I’m not for one moment suggesting that the UN & NATO should not have responded after 9/11 but our fight was with Bin Laden and his group, not the Taliban, how ever much we disagreed with how they ran their society.

    • Edward2
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

      So just carry on and allow radicals to use the Internet to spread their violent poison.
      It has to be addressed.
      You cannot have evil propaganda encouraging murder being allowed.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

        @Edward2; Oh dear. Some people simply do not understand the technical reasons why Mrs may tough talk about controlling the internet is just hot air, in the same way as it was when the Blair government talked tough after 7/7, and was justly criticised for doing so by the right-wing…

        For goodness sake if law enforcement authorities, backed up by the likes of GCHQ (so we are told), can’t stop perverts swapping sexually abusive images via the dark-web etc. what chance encrypted emails or coded tax messages – of which there will likely be millions, should the government decide that it should have the right to do the modern day equivalent of steaming open envelopes containing personal letters to friends and loved ones – if you think we should accept and live in such a GDR like police state and accept such activity then the terrorist has already won.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:06 am | Permalink

          So do nothing because it’s difficult.
          That is your policy.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; No Eddie, that is the policy you and those you support wish to take, in effect, there is absolutely no point in hollow gestures, even worse, polices that simple can not work, merely generating a fails sense of security amongst the general public.

            On the other hand people like Mr Corbyn actually want to sort out the problem, both branch and roots, even if that means the west also having to eat some humble pie. Just because you prune all the branches off a tree it doesn’t mean the tree is no longer there, it is and perhaps ready to leaf again next year even stronger…

          • Edward2
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

            Ridiculous logic Jerry
            First you say trying to do anything won’t work.

            Now you say those that suggest doing something are really doing nothing.

            Corbyn wants to talk.
            I suggest he pops over to Syria and chats to IS

          • Jerry
            Posted June 7, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; “First you say trying to do anything won’t work.”

            Care to cite that? I said no such thing.

            “Corbyn wants to talk.
            I suggest he pops over to Syria and chats to IS”

            No one is going to be able to talk to IS, not even the Taliban or Al-Qaeda. But what can happen is international agreements that allow the countries in which IS have made their home to deal with the problem – that can be done at the UN level, although it might mean that some western countries need to rethink their political wish-list agendas for the area.

  13. Peter
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Internment is noticeably absent from discussions on the BBC. It has been widely advocated elsewhere.

    Maybe the establishment propaganda channel has been asked not to mention it?

    It would have an immediate impact by preventing the most dangerous from being able to carry out attacks.

    May is part of the problem.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

      @Peter; “Internment is noticeably absent from discussions on the BBC. It has been widely advocated elsewhere. [..//..] It would have an immediate impact by preventing the most dangerous from being able to carry out attacks.”

      More unthinking knee-jerk reactions. Have you forgotten, or perhaps you were not around at the time (as indeed the leader of UKIP wasn’t [1]), Internment when used in NI became nothing but a recruiting sergeant for the IRA whilst those interned were seen as heroes to the cause.

      [1] the only party groups talking about Internment are UKIP.

      • Edward2
        Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

        After the knee jerk reaction it calmed down the violence and reduced the murders bombings and criminal acts.

        • Jerry
          Posted June 6, 2017 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

          @Edward2; Stop talking utter ill-informed rot, the violence got worse, you do realise that Internment only lasted between 1971 and 1975?…

          • Edward2
            Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

            Calm Jerry
            Rude and agressive as usual.
            You need a new history book.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 7, 2017 at 6:08 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; The Pot calling the Kettle filthy again, twice…

          • Edward2
            Posted June 7, 2017 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

            Your repeated use of this tired old phrase doesn’t work.
            I’m not the one shouting “liar” ” nonsense” “utter nonsense” ” I’ll informed rot” and other such phrases every day on here.
            You need to develop some manners and realise your opinions are no more valid than other people.
            You regularly shout “nonsense” at posters when you actually mean “I have a different opinion to you ”
            It’s not how reasonable people talk to each other.

            PS
            It should read the pot calling the kettle black.

      • Peter
        Posted June 6, 2017 at 6:06 am | Permalink

        Yes. I remember the IRA concentrated on attacks on property so as not to alienate the UK population. They phoned in warnings. They had a clear objective and talked with government from time to time.

        Jihadis want to kill people. It is a nihilistic cult that will not stop.

        I prefer keeping ‘known wolves’ away from their targets.

        The head of COBRA Colonel Kemp has also called for internment and claimed there is a lack of political will.

        Reply The Brighton bomb did not feel like that – we didn’t get a warning

        • Jerry
          Posted June 6, 2017 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

          @Peter; “They phoned in warnings.”

          Not always, sometimes not giving anything like enough time to evacuate, sometimes giving the wrong location so sending both public and police into danger.

          PS, you do know what the term “COBRA” stands for don’t you?… 🙂

  14. backofanenvelope
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    My step-daughter would like this piece. A few years ago she explained to me that her son wouldn’t be following his father into the army, because the armed forces were no longer necessary, all disputes could be solved by rational people applying logic. She didn’t believe that there were lots of irrational people who didn’t believe in logic.

  15. Nig l
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    Another thoughtful piece with nothing to disagree on. Nonetheless as we saw in the Rochdale grooming and Tower Hamlets corruption scandals and the blind eye turned to Sharia courts, inhumane killing of animals, unequal treatment of women and verbal attacks on homosexuality, the fog of political correctness gives me no confidence that we will get anything other than some cosmetic tinkering. There are also questions about our allies in the Middle East sponsoring terrorism and the role of MI6 in recruiting people to fight Assads regime and who are now returning to the UK.

    We now learn that like the Manchester bombers, the people responsible for London Bridge had been reported to the terrors hot line and the police yet nothing was done. As I said above, no confidence whatsoever.

  16. The Prangwizard
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    So Mrs May says ‘enough is enough’. All she is talking about is the internet and just watch out for attacks on ‘the right’. She said that last week so nothing new. And nothing about arresting imams or closing mosques.

    Why has she allowed tens of thousands of our sworn enemies into the country? When she talks about extremists I imagine she includes people like Pamela Geller in the US who is banned but who simply talks about the dangers of islam. May banned her but she hasn’t even threatened lives. Taking the soft option. Fake toughness. Part of her appeasement strategy.

    May, as with the rest of this government attacks the wrong people. And the BBC is already turning the narrative claiming that people have reported individuals to the police. These claims ought to be treated with grave suspicion and and in any event will be used against them in the propaganda war.

  17. Andy Marlot
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    Here’s one simple and cheap way of stopping terrorism. Don’t let them come here. Here’s another. Stop allowing known terrorists to live here. Here’s another. Stop supporting terrorist groups in Libya, Syria and where ever else. Doesn’t seem that difficult to me.

    • Deborah
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      Cheap, simple and a very good start.
      Add on prosecute people with ISIS flags, those who preach violence and those who abuse our policemen/ servicemen – apply the law equally to all communities.

  18. agricola
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    While I agree with your first two paragraphs you subsequently fall short of indicating what can be done to limit the effect of this murderous cancer in our otherwise democratic society. The time for mild tweaking is over. When the PM says “Enough is enough.”, we want to know exactly what she means and how it is to be carried out. The time for rhetoric is past. Our whole approach should now be pro-active rather than reactive.

    My solution does not involve rhetoric. We need to end the concept of two separate societies within the UK. No more separate education. No second legal system in operation in any form. An absolute end to FGM through our own law. An end to polygamy. An end to under age arranged marriage. An end to genetically dangerous first cousin marriage, the results of which burden our NHS. We already have law against most of the above , but if not we have practise. People who come to the UK to reside should accept our law and practise unequivocally, or vote for change democratically.

    You say we need more people in Intelligence. Why not reduce their workload by removing the 500 or so they monitor from circulation. If you warrant the attention of MI5 then there must be substantial reason why. As we are at war, as in the past there must be law that enables us to remove such from normal society. I am personally in favour of a military run “Alcatraz” based on an uninhabited island off our coast with family communication permitted only by letter in English. We have so much law in the UK to chase every demeanour committed by motorists, there must be something to allow for the incarceration of potential murderers.

    Then there is the tool of deportation. Those that that give warped religious guidance should be the first out of the UK. How do you get to such a position minus years of study and peer acceptance via examination. There should be no returnees from Jihad in the Middle East. Any doubts should lead to detention at the border until cleared one way or another. Having a Jihadi in the family should automatically raise questions about the family.

    Application for entry to the UK should only be valid if made and approved in the country of origin or one adjacent, not in a layby on the M20 having been found in the back of a lorry. The latter should suffer immediate deportation.

    All my guidance is dependant on the UK being a sovereign state once more, which is in all our hands on Thursday next.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

      “Enough is enough” is a bit like “Brexit mean Brexit” – totally meaningless. Politicians only ever say things that are A. Blatant lies, B. Meaningless platitudes or C. So obviously true as to be hardly worth even saying at all.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted June 6, 2017 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

      I am determined to view this problem from a libertarian viewpoint that does not restrict our current freedoms but does make headway towards solving the issue.

      Conscious of avoiding knee jerk reactions to this escalating problem I can not find fault with a word of your post and hope Mr Redwood forwards it to the next Home Secretary on June 9th.

  19. Bert Young
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    All of us have to abide by our laws . No religion has the right to establish courts that impose laws outside of our system . No religion has the right to preach and encourage violence and hatred . The advocates who perpetuate hatred are as much to blame as those who carry out attacks . Enough is enough and all those guilty of these infringements should be punished and , when possible , sent where they belong .

    Society has to be governed as well as respected for it to work . The administrators of the laws have a tough and demanding job and must be supported at all times . The normal political 5 year time scale ought not to interfere and change the job of security and the administration of law .

  20. E.S Tablishment
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    The terrorists have seen just seen thanks to BBC and Sky News that just three of their amateur untrained fighters can make 2000 British run away without even the use of a gun or grenade…just implements for carving the Sunday Roast.
    Start what would appear is common in some private schools, miltary training in all our schools. We need our people combat-ready , psychologically and physically able to defend themselves as the government admits it has failed, will continue to fail and promises to fail against terrorist attacks because it “is impossible to defend against soft targets!”

  21. james neill
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    All above by JR today is good and I fully agree, however we shouldn’t forget that unfortunately from time to time in this world ideologies, including extreme ideologies, rears its ugly head like Pol Pot and the Khmer rouge, like Rwanda, like Stalinism, like Nazism, like the bouts of genocide in the Balkans, etc etc for which there can be no reasoning- these were extremist movements that just couldn’t be reasoned with. And so likewise today we have in our midst extremist radical Islamism fuelled by religious intolerance and hatred to contend with- unfortunately this kind of extremism will just have to be rooted out, faced up to and challenged, it cannot ever be reasoned with-

  22. English Pensioner
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    It is time to have a list of countries which British citizens/residents are prohibited from visiting without special permission. Whilst we can’t stop people from going to these counties, we can stop them returning if they have dual nationality, or interning them for committing a crime if they don’t.
    We should also refuse re-entry to anyone who has been given asylum here but subsequently visits their home country; if it is safe enough for a visit, it is safe enough to go back permanently.
    We also need to re-examine the Human Rights laws which seem to prevent us from doing anything in many cases on the basis of “family life”. Surely an individual’s human rights should be not seen to be more important than those of others to live in safety. I’m sure we could afford to send an individual’s family with him to wherever he is being deported!

  23. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    There are something like 2.8 million Muslims living in the UK, of whom about 23,000 have at some time come to the attention of the security services as potential jihadis. Roughly speaking, therefore, about one in a hundred British Muslims have given some cause for concern about their supposed extreme attitudes and potential inclination towards violence.

    So there is no inconsistency between the routine politically correct claim that it is only a tiny minority of British Muslims who have any inclination towards terrorism, and a pessimistic assessment that there are now far too many for the security services to monitor.

    Back in 1951 when there were only about 0.1 million Muslims in the UK it might have been possible to keep close tabs on perhaps a thousand suspected Islamic extremists, and even free ourselves of some of them by deportation, but since then the potential problem has since been allowed to get beyond control.

    I don’t suppose that those who claim to have discovered a huge economic benefit from mass immigration have factored this into their clever calculations.

  24. Protestant Christian
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    We have far too much brutality in our culture. From Politicians dropping bombs to Jihadists beheading children. All this comes through the that evil little box called the TV.

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      And the computer game.

      • a-tracy
        Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:54 am | Permalink

        And You Tube!!! Now that’s something that could be stopped

  25. barnacle bill
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Actions speak louder than words, so it might be appropriate if the Prime Minister were to start by closing down all the Sharia courts she allowed to be established in this country whilst at the Home Office.

    They are an insult to the established laws of this land and all the values we hold to be true and good in this once fair land.

  26. Anonymous
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    We need fast armed response everywhere and not just London. Perhaps a home guard made up of ex military and ex firearm trained police. A friend retired this year – thousands lost in tactical firearms training and expertise for the police – at only 49. We cannot afford this.

    We are at war. We need to start acting like it.

  27. Original Richard
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    “We need to ask how an asylum seeker from a dangerous country to whom we have granted asylum feels free to journey back to that very country that he said would damage him.”

    We are in a hole and we should stop digging by calling a halt to almost all immigration from “mainly Muslim” countries.

    Muslim refugees should be provided with aid in their own or neighbouring countries. Not bringing into the UK a further 50,000 Syrian refugees for instance as suggested by the Lib Dems.

    We then need to tackle the existing UK extremism by cutting off the funding of Muslim schools and mosques from abroad and deporting non-UK Muslim preachers of hate/non-integration, tackling radicalisation in prisons etc. etc. etc.

    It should be made an offence for UK nationals to travel to listed countries which are at war or harbour terrorist training camps without a valid UK visa for travel to these countries. In this way we have a valid reason to prosecute and imprison jihadists who do not apply for a visa and attempt a return to the UK.

    We also need of course to implement a proper border control system to know who is and who is not in the country

  28. Walk like a Russian
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    When Chechen terrorists took over a Russian school, the armed authorities turned up with a couple of armoured vehicles, handed out AK 47s to males in the neighbourhood who had all served national service and then jointly with uniformed and civilians as seen on our TVadvanced on the enemy and shot them to bits…no prisoners!But then Russia is a dictatorship but Putin has more popular support than the Tory and Labour Parties put together and gets one thing right. The first duty of a leader is to defend his people. Could we hire him for important stuff like safety of our kids to have a drink on Saturday night?
    Oh and “you know what?” as Corbyn says,Putin didn’t have one single talk with “communities” beforehand and their head of police didn’t threaten Russians with doing “Hate Speech” Know thy enemy!!!, something Tories need to learn when they allow themselves to name the enemy. Chechens don’t play computer games online so I guess it was easier.

  29. Antisthenes
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    The fact that we are a tolerant society and allow people to believe in what ever religion they wish is a relatively recent phenomena. It was not always so Christians went through a long period of intolerance against other religions and those within Christianity who were deemed to not to be adhering to the strict religious teachings of the religious texts and the clerics who interpreted them.

    There are other religions in the world who are still at that stage of their development the largest of which is Islam. For Christians in that period it created intractable problems and much blood was spilt and many horrors perpetrated so we cannot be surprised if having a large Islamic population in our mist and with others who we mix with in the wider world if we are now caught up in the horrors that we have currently disavowed.

    We cannot do much to change the mindset of peoples who are adamantly opposed to their deep seated religious views being questioned. Those deep seated views will only be eroded over time and if Christianity is any thing to go by it will be a very long time yet. These very obvious facts have been ignored by politicians, leaders and the bleeding hearts sections of society in the West and the consequences of which we are reaping the bitter harvest now. Fighting intolerance with tolerance has it’s place but without strict safeguards also being employed, which have not been, then things are going to become considerably worse. The outcome of which is not pleasant to contemplate.

    • forthurst
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

      How do you explain how the oldest Christian communities in the world are or were in Syria? How do you explain that the Syrian Arab Army is mainly Sunni, representing the largest sect in Syria, when the elected President of Syria is an Alawite Shia? There are political forces at work in the West which you simply have not understood; in particular, who is the real enemy behind all our problems. Don’t worry that clueless woman, Theresa May, hasn’t worked it out either!

      • Antisthenes
        Posted June 6, 2017 at 9:52 am | Permalink

        I also have my doubts about the competency of Theresa May but not just her but every Western country leader and well beyond. There has been no leader in history who can be said to be completely without fault but what those faults are are different depending on the partisan eyes of those judging them. All sorts of leaders emerge all with aspirations to accumulate enough power to impose theirs and their followers vision onto society.

        Power corrupts and visions are never perfect far from it and we ordinary citizens are fickle, gullible and credulous. So it is no surprise if even though the world today is at least far wealthier than it has ever been it s still being governed everywhere ineptly and different standards and values are being practised. Different forms of government being practised all with their virtues and their vices. All to someones dissatisfaction that results in some form of intervention with very mixed results. Sometimes tragic or at least destabilising.

  30. Mitchel
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    The British Establishment having adopted a “community of communities” design for this country(aping Lenin’s design for the Soviet Union-at least Stalin knew that would be a disaster and rowed back from it)know full well this can only be held together by authoritarian means which is why our freedoms have been diminishing under the guise of the rule of law.

  31. Mike Wilson
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    So, what’s the plan? We all get surveilled and still these things get carried out?

  32. Oliver
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    I don’t feel your last sentence, “We need to ask…” is strong enough. We need to DEMAND….

    If the Met have 2000 Officers in 70 teams dealing with Islamic terrorism as the Telegraph reports today the issue is not resources, but how they are applied. Corbyn needs calling out on exactly how his 20,000 would help.

    If suspects were tagged (after due process), both these attacks could simply have been hampered by making it illegal for a tagged person to rent a vehicle.

    It could similarly be made illegal for a tagged person to travel in a vehicle (possibly excluding a bus) with another tagged person. Computer tracking could highlight abuse, and allow targeted action.

    The powers may well exist now. Use them.

  33. A Peoples Militia
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    A democracy should have a Militia. We are denied our right to have a militia.We have no democracy.

    No, not a Territorial Army. Most of them resigned when the Gulf war and Iraq war turned up. Real proper men and women for a real proper militia.

  34. agricola
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    While you await the moderation and publication of my contribution today I would suggest you read Leo Mckinstry in the Daily Express today. He sums it up very well as inept political leadership, and as ever the man/woman in the street carrying the burden of their ineptness while being asked to carry on life as normal. I would predict serious civil unrest if politicians fail to come clean, fail to admit there is a problem, and fail to tackle it in an effective manner.

    • Chris
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      Well said, Agricola.

  35. Julian
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Internment.
    We’ve had enough of ‘the assailant was known to the security forces’.

    • sjb
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

      “Operation DEMETRIUS, the introduction of Internment […] was a major mistake.” [1] “military advice was consistently against the reintroduction of Internment in 1971.” [2]

      [1] para 220, Operation Banner: An Analysis of Military Operations in Northern Ireland, Army Code 71842
      [2] para 405, ibid.

  36. Raab not the Veg
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Dominic Raab MP is always on the box.He seems to have been appointed Tory Party spokesman of sorts.He is very good on TV.His historic thing about British workers being idle “Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world” reflects the mindset of a couple of Tory party members I’ve met, but totally opposite to two more. His ideas about Indian workers working hard and being aspirational surely accounts of why India governed the UK as a colonial power, established the mechanisation of our textile industry, pioneered the building of our railways and why every High Street in India has a fish n’chip and tripe and cowheel stall as we migrate there in our droves. Not many Indians, although flattered, agree with him. But he was young then. I used to be daft too.
    Unfortunately, our British businessmen are our and THE problem but not for socialistic reasons. They are just incompetent, full of their own importance, and have suffered by never being otherthrown a couple of times in anti-them revolutions. They think and act as the world owes them a living.Even one of the most idle peoples of the world has moved in and taken over much of our industry as a result, even to the corner shop and small retail food outlet and take-away. ..and of course HighTech for,apart from being supremely intelligent, requires most times just sitting lazily on your bottom and chilling out.

    Reply We have many well run and industrious enterprises, and world beaters.

    • sjb
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

      “Dominic Raab MP is always on the box. […] His ideas about Indian workers working hard […]”

      This is the ‘planting the seed’ stage. Post-Brexit, it will be easier for firms short of workers to employ Indians because EU workers will have lost their freedom of movement advantage.

  37. miami.mode
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    ……the government will continue to improve and strengthen its response to extremist violence……

    Concrete barriers around every place where people might congregate. Who’s winning?

  38. Tad Davison
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    It isn’t just a question of the defence of democracy, it is a defence of our culture and the British way of life.

    Be in no doubt, we are in a war – a global war. A war of ideologies. We have an alien culture in our midst that is so different, they might as well have come down from Mars. And at its roots, lie ridiculous beliefs, customs, and precepts handed down from generation to generation, that effectively inhibit many of its own people. And such people who have not the strength of character to choose freedom over oppressive rules and edicts, and willingly submit to them, are susceptible to misguidance and capable of absolutely anything.

    I cannot imagine any of my friends or family ever allowing themselves to be so brainwashed that they would ever submit to any of its rules that surely amount to superstition, and yet, we are supposed to accept and respect this wayward culture lest we get put to death. That is something I can never do.

    And if anyone thinks recent events are the end of it, they are seriously and dangerously deluded. It’s just the start, as predicted by some of us all along. Multiculturalism does not work.

    Tad Davison

    Cambridge

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 6, 2017 at 9:40 am | Permalink

      Except we do not have an ideology just a vacuum.When Russia binned what purported to be communism,the government brought the Russian Orthodox Church back absolutely centre stage and Mr Putin is very happy to be seen “doing God”.

      You know what happens when you create a vacuum.

  39. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Hello John, Why is my post at 5.55 this morning still awaiting moderation? Have I said something that is not allowed?

    Reply I am busy with an election!

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

      Reply to reply.

      Thank you, it is in now. Sorry, but I am unaware of how you decide what to print and when. Good luck with your campaigning.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

      Good luck indeed, post the election we desperately need you and the rather small sensible wing on the party to explain reality to socialist, buffoon Theresa May.

  40. Jason wells
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    The last thing radical extremists believe in is democracy- in fact these type of individuals have a very clear mission in life which is to destroy democracy. They resent and hate everything about our secular and free way of living- so there is no point in talking to them because there can ge no meeting of minds on any of this.

    Therefore what to do? Well its up to the authorities now and government to lay out a plan of action and to make the necessary changes to law that is going to make our lives more safer.. as mrs may has already indicated things have to change- we cant go on this way- however, one thing, ‘longer prison sentences is not going to do it’!

  41. SheaJ
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Only thing thats going to work in the short to medium term is internment without trial..and that means intetnment without access to the intetnet

  42. Iain Gill
    Posted June 5, 2017 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Can we not lock up people flying the Isis flag?

    Jfdi

    • a-tracy
      Posted June 6, 2017 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      Well if we can’t lock people up, or tag them, young girls in London are going to have to get some knife self-defence training for when they can’t run and these young men seem to target our women.

  43. NA
    Posted June 6, 2017 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    GCHQ want total control of the internet, that is partly what all this is about.

  44. Confused
    Posted June 13, 2017 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Why is the govt trying to stop extremists on Youtube when the alleged terrorist was not on youtube but a channel 4 show called ‘the Terrorist next door’?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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