I welcome the fact that the government is pressing on with taking the necessary legal powers to run our own customs and trade policies. They tell us the bills will allow them to set tariffs, impose trade penalties and do what it takes to be a full voting member of the WTO. So far so good. I support that.
Buried in the detail of the legislation are some areas where I and others sought reassurance or amendment. The government has agreed to make improvements. The government should not  have the power to put us back into a customs union or similar arrangement without needing primary legislation. Parliament has agreed to leave the EU Customs Union – voting decisively three times on this matter after extensive debate. Any wish to reverse this decision should also need substantial debate and a formal legislative process. I agree with Dominic Grieve’s line on the need for primary legislation in such circumstances, as he required us to do for the Article 50 letter and all aspects of leaving the EU in the Withdrawal Act.
We also want to see the UK outside the EU VAT system. On March 29 2019 VAT must become a UK tax which we can change as we see fit. The government agrees.
The government supports an amendment that rules out a customs or tax border between the island of Ireland and the UK. All parties to the negotiations tell us they do not  want such a border, so we might as well make that clear in legislation. The amendment proposed makes clear Northern Ireland will be part of the same customs and tax arrangements as the rest of the UK. I have always thought the Irish border issue was much exaggerated by the EU for their own purposes. It already is a Vat, Excise and currency border, but these matters are settled away from the border itself. The UK government does not  want to put in big barriers and seek to calculate customs or VAT at the border point, nor does it need to. What we have today can handle customs as well if that becomes necessary as it already does for non EU trade.
The government has also agreed to accept an amendment which says that the UK would not collect EU customs duties  for the EU unless the EU collected UK customs for the UK.
Yesterday’s debate was dominated by people who have never run complex supply chains who were unwilling to accept they work fine with non EU as well as with EU parts. We needed to explain all over again how TIR, Authorised Economic Operators, the WTO Facilitation Agreement, electronic manifests and calculations and checking loads away from the border currently operate to speed goods across borders. The electronic paperwork is detailed and sometime complicated, but it is also needed by the customer and required for product audit purposes. If you supply a part into the supply chain for a complex and safety crucial product like a plane or truck, you do need to supply the customer with very detailed information about  where it came from, when and how it was made, and how it has been tested. Your computer can share the parts of this information that is needed with the Customs, Vat, Excise and other authorities electronically.
July 17, 2018
Good morning
We should not be collecting anyone’s customs tariffs. Tell them to collect their own and pay for it themselves.
The solution to the CU is to abolish all tariffs everywhere. I have to compete with foreign workers so why can’t French farmers compete with non-EU farmers ?
July 17, 2018
Mark B
Exactly.
July 17, 2018
JR, whatever the issue it is clear May has lost complete trust of the public and party. Her lack of integrity is breathtaking. The reason the amendments were made were because Leave MPs know she cannot be trusted and given an inch will betray the country.
May has banned people from the country if she does not agree with their opinion, she has curtailed free speech at every opportunity, made the ballot box null and void by her white paper, got rid of collegiate cabinet, EAW to whip you off to a foreign land without legal process in this country, forced gay marriage on a Christian society without right to speak out about it, allowed yesterday HRMC to conduct secret investigations and take money from your bank account without any legal process to do so! She is becoming a dictator.
May knew for a long time Robbins was writing an alternative paper that would be thrust upon thencqbinet at the last minute hoping the detail would not be noticed. The detail went against everything n her Lancaster speech, i.e. Not half in and half our or bits of then EU applying to an agreed position between the factions in your party contained in the Mansion House speech. Ultr remainers were aware, of not participated in the paper. Why else would Clarke ask in parliament six weeks ago if she would diverge from regulatory alignment? His question not on single market or customs union. Her white paper demonstrates she would not diverge from regulatory alignment because the consequences would be too great but hypothetically and technically the govt could.
Your colleagues in cabinet who support this dishonest white paper, and Mays underhand behaviour, are finished l if they do not yet know it. Suggest someone have a word in their ear. I suggest Hammond and Hunt knew what was going on by their replies to the media i.e. Modest changes only, May’s Brexit or no Brexit. Again, breathtaking Reagan CE against electoral democracy. I would advocate their associations oust them.
July 17, 2018
Hope, Quite right. Someone needs to bang the Tory Remains’ heads together and tell them bluntly that the result the nation voted for was to Leave the EU. So Leave is the only outcome possible, unless our democracy is damaged irrevocably.
You say: “May knew for a long time Robbins was writing an alternative paper …”. Not merely “knew” she authorised it. So she has deliberately deceived her own Ministers, her own MPs and the country for months. She has taken the Tory party for mugs.
July 17, 2018
I had to laugh at the May-Trump press conference last week when our very own strong and stable genius,refering to Russia,spoke about “malign influences trying to undermine our democracies.”
Ooooh,Ther-eeee-sa…you are a card!
July 17, 2018
JR, suggest you read the traitorous email from S Hammond and published by Guido. Those named are acting in stark contrast to the rferendum result, election and manifesto.
I hope all associations will oust them ASAP.
July 17, 2018
@ NickC
Re: ‘Quite right. Someone needs to bang the Tory Remainsâ heads together’
Absolutely agree though I’m not sure it would do much good as they obviously think it better to destroy not only democracy, the trust of the electorate and the Conservative party as well, they will go down in history as the sole reason UK politicians will be looked upon as a joke for years to come.
And if the country’s memory starts to fade those of us that have been let down by these single minded charlatans will be sure to carry on talking about this fiasco to educate other’s of just how meaningless our votes are.
July 17, 2018
Tory rules do not allow a leadership contest when parliament is not sitting. Is the early recess proposal to save her neck or because she intends to cave in to ultra to stay in the customs union which is voted on today?
I am confused I thought we already had several votes not to stay in the customs union or a customs union? Could you shed light on this please.
Reply Yes Parliament has decided three times by large majorities against staying in the customs union and single market.
July 17, 2018
So why does it appear again today with SHammond and co threatening to vote against govt.?
July 17, 2018
Therolly wants to collect the EU’s customs duties for them because that would be a sycophantic subservient continuation of what we do now.
And Therolly did not expect other EU countries to collect UK customs duties for us because that is not something they do now and Therolly does not want to put them to any unnecessary trouble through our withdrawal from the EU.
And nor did Therolly think to offer to extend the same special favour to any other countries such as Canada or the US, whether or not on a reciprocal basis, because we haven’t had the same kind of close friendly relationship with them.
Not even with any of those so–called Most Favoured Nations who according to the very knowledgeable Vicky Ford MP might complain to the WTO if we still policed our land borders with them while we did not have any checks on our land border with the Irish Republic.
And now will we consider making use of or proposing the creation of any kind of arrangement to allow goods bound for the EU to transit through the UK without paying UK duties en route, even though such arrangements do exist:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-community-and-common-transit-outwards/uk-trade-tariff-community-and-common-transit-outwards
“Community transit (CT) is an EU customs procedure that allows non-community goods which duty has not been paid on to move from one point in the EU to another (including from one point to another in an individual member state).
Itâs also used for the movement of goods to, from or between the âspecial territoriesâ of the EU and between the EU and Andorra (Harmonised System chapter 25 to 97) or San Marino.
The âcommonâ transit procedure is used for the movement of goods between the EU and the other contracting parties to the Common Transit Convention (âcommon transit countriesâ) or between the common transit countries.
The common transit countries are … ”
Believe me, this has all been very carefully and professionally thought out, but by people who do not want us to leave the EU anyway.
In any case, the Lords will probably reverse these unwanted amendments.
July 17, 2018
Elsewhere we learn that 50 key negotiators have been moved from DexEU to the Cabinet Office where they will be under Mr Robbinsâs not Mr Raabâs control.
Further, Mrs May wants to bring forward the recess, effectively weakening Parliamentary oversight of HMGâs actions.
It would be much better if this year MPs voted to do without a recess altogether and sat right through the summer. Hold the Speaker down in the Chair as our ancestors did of old. This government is not to be trusted one inch.
July 17, 2018
Indeed, this recess a/ looks awful and b/ doesn’t get the job done.
The population will sense that Parliament doesn’t much care about the country (which doesn’t have a summer recess).
July 17, 2018
May, ‘tax to death’ Hammond and this government are certainly not to be trusted at all.
VAT was originally a French idea from the 50s. Britain introduced it as a condition of joining the European Economic Community. It is a very inefficient way of taxing people and should be replaced with a simpler sales tax anyway and reduced to about 10% but extended to all products.
July 17, 2018
When we joined the EU, VAT replaced our own Purchase Tax which was levied between 1940 and 1973 at different rates depending on goods’ luxuriousness and applied to the wholesale price and varied between 33 and 100%!!
Those were the days!
July 17, 2018
Yes, Dominic Raab is nothing more than a face to put in front of the cameras, to polish whatever the civil servants in No. 10 produce in secret.
July 17, 2018
BOF
Yes given a department to head up, then all the good staff taken away to be used by the department which is working against you.
Think I would resign on principle, its just an absolute farce, and taking the p…
Our Prime minister it wounds seem couldn’t organise a p… up in a brewery, because she would be turning turning up at the establishment where all the empty barrels where returned to be cleaned out, because she gave the job of organising it to a tea totaler.
July 17, 2018
Mr Robbins has been summoned to appear before the European Scrutiny Committee on July 24th. Whether he will attend is another matter, but if he does condescend to appear I think the committee members should seriously consider whether he has been taking on far too much work for his own good and he might be in need of a long rest to recuperate. The government does have a legal duty of care for its employees.
July 17, 2018
Perhaps with such momentous events going on, they could do without their annual jolly at the party conferences.
July 17, 2018
And another thing is to put your tooth under the pillow and wait for the ÂŁ2.00 in the morning.
Look, the EU is not going to haggle. M. Barnier has made it totally clear several times that unless the UK meets the qualifications on Northern Ireland, there will be no deal.
He means it.
We will, at the moment, crash out on 30/3/19.
If you think this will not happen, just keep living until then.
July 17, 2018
Mr Stallard. In what way will we “crash out” on 30/3/19? You regurgitate these sound bites but never explain what will allegedly happen. If WTO is part of the impending disaster, how come our current non-EU trade is not deemed to be “crashing out”?
July 17, 2018
Jagman84, That’s easy – it’s because Remains tend to be fired by an emotional commitment to the EU, rather than by fact. The added irony is that Remains sneer at UK (especially English) patriotism, vide Lady Nugee, whilst slathering about their wonderful EU.
July 17, 2018
Another chippy 11+ failure. Objective assessments can be so cruel.
July 18, 2018
what a load of nonsense it works both ways
July 17, 2018
Prof. Minford of Cardiff suggested declaring unilateral free trade. The biggest winners from this would be the UK consumers of high tariff goods. They are the ultimate payers of such tariffs. He calculated an immediate drop of 8% in foods prices, assuming that greedy traders did not attempt to hold prices at current levels. 3rd world farmers would benefit by not being priced out of the market by EU protectionism.
July 17, 2018
Prof. Minford also projects the elimination of most of the UK manufacturing base under this scenario.
To be fair, that does align with what we’ve been hearing from the likes of Airbus, BMW, Jaguar-Land Rover etc.
July 17, 2018
Another remain myth.
Prof Minford was asked if the UK could survive without a manufacturing sector.
He said yes probably we could.
He didn’t say Brexit would cause the end of manufacturing in the UK
July 17, 2018
Take car manufacturers.
WTO rules would apply a max tariff of 10%
That will not kill off the UK car industry.
The exchange rate of the pound versus the dollar and euro has moved by more than 10% in recent years and the car industry has survived and prospered.
July 17, 2018
And in a 2017 article in the Financial Times Prof Minford argued how post Brexit tariff free trade would boost the economy by over 100 billion and said it would bring great opportunities for growth in manufacturing.
July 17, 2018
I suggest you read the article he wrote in the Sun in March 2016:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/politics/1086319/brexit-will-boost-our-economy-and-cut-the-cost-of-bmws-and-even-brie/
“Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech. But this shouldnât scare us.”
July 18, 2018
And read the dozens of articles he has written where he shows the advantages of free trade and leaving the EU on the overall prosperity of the UK economy.
Never mentioned by remain.
But the Sun interview back in 2012 where this phrase taken out of context has been used as a flag flown by remainers ever since.
Manufacturing has declined whilst we were in the EU.
Is that the fault of the EU?
July 18, 2018
That’s not a quote from an interview from 2012, it’s an article he wrote (he is listed as the only author) in March 2016.
July 17, 2018
Whose CEOs are Thomas Enders, Harald KrĂŒger, and Ralf Speth.
Your starter for ten: What do they all three have in common?
July 17, 2018
Fake news! LSE enonomists came to this conclusion, not the Professor. Nice try! Unsurprisingly, I found the conclusion in the Guardian. What a coincidence!
July 17, 2018
I think Prof Minford needs to convince some S. American country of the efficacy of his scheme, to act as guinea pigs, before we try it ourselves.
July 18, 2018
Peter Parson
Bit behind the news curve my friend. Airbus got angry and ratted them up. Airbus were told by the government to make those negative comments. They then failed to land an RAF contract so snitched.
Oh and Minford said nothing of the kind, so stop spreading fake news
Meanwhile if you are worried about UK manufacturing here’s the good news from the horses mouth
Manufacturers Trade Magazine
Manufacturing contributes ÂŁ6.7 trillion to the global economy. Contrary to widespread perceptions, UK manufacturing is thriving, with the UK currently the worldâs eighth largest industrial nation. If current growth trends continue, the UK will break into the top five by 2021. In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people.
July 17, 2018
As usual he is quite right. That is exactly what we should do.
July 17, 2018
Making importers bear compliance costs of ÂŁ1.8 billion so HMRC can collect ÂŁ3.4 billion of customs duties seems unreasonable and stupid, whether that is done on behalf of the EU as now or it is done on our own behalf in the future:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/07/16/a-3-option-referendum-would-not-work/#comment-948036
Then going on to make businesses bear additional compliance costs of ÂŁ17 billion to ÂŁ20 billion to collect what could be similar additional revenue, maybe about ÂŁ3 billion of duties on imports from the EU, seems utterly insane.
July 17, 2018
It does seem insane , but it maintains May’s promise to the EU that we would not undercut the inefficient Single Market and keep us tied forever to the lowest common denominator in the EU. She thinks more of the EU than she does of her own country and so do the Remainers.
July 17, 2018
Foreign workers, home owners, shoppers, drivers, patients, passengers, pupils, benefit claimants……..
The list of those we have to compete with is long and they are often subsidised.
July 17, 2018
Dr. Redwood,
Thank you for maintaining a positive and constructive stance when some in your party and opposite seem to prefer ill-informed histrionics as their primary course. One questions whether further discussion of this paper is useful, perhaps much more productive use of time would be to make the case for leaving on WTO terms and why that is not the end of UK manufacturing.
As an encouragement to moving forward quickly on departing the EU, it might be worth considering what is now published German foreign policy on EU integration from the German Foreign Minister:
We can no longer fully rely on the White House”, says Foreign Minister @HeikoMaas. In order to recalibrate our partnership with the US we need a united, confident and sovereign Europe! #EuropeUnited #Trump @GermanyintheEU
A UNITED, CONFIDENT AND SOVEREIGN EUROPE.
Under whose control might that be?
July 17, 2018
Peter Wood: “Under whose control might that be?”….
answer: a Holy Roman Emperor, in fact though probably not in name, together with a nomenklatura (otherwise known in polite society as a civil service). And the structure will last for a while and then eventually fail and fall, as do all over-ambitious human power projects.
July 17, 2018
“The government supports an amendment that rules out a customs or tax border between the island of Ireland and the UK.”
How frightening that nearly 50% of MPs voted against this.
Mr Redwood shows remarkable self restraint.
Reply That amendment was passed unanimously
July 17, 2018
I pleased you spotted my deliberate error.
July 17, 2018
It appears to me that Parliament is looking for a way to defy the referendum result whilst making it look like it was the people’s idea. Greening’s three way referendum is an obvious swiz bent towards remaining.
They’re not even clever about it.
Just do it.
Defy the referendum. Stop insulting our intelligence.
July 17, 2018
Remainers included the Prime Minister would like to be saved by the bell so that they can regroup.
May is now fully exposed as secretive, deceitful and duplicitous – a poor manâs Machiavelli.
The only ways forward for Remainers is another referendum, indefinite delay or the complete abandonment of Brexit on the grounds of stalemate(ignoring the fact that it is stalemate because of intransigent MPs).
A long break would give May time to plot another of the above options. She would give Remain fellow travellers the bullets to fire and pretend she had no option but to move in that direction. Weasel words would be found to dress this up. Perhaps Mrs. Merkel could provide advice again.
July 17, 2018
Peter, Indeed, events have revealed that Theresa May is not the innocent, vaguely incompetent vicar’s daughter, but an accomplished schemer who has taken her own MPs for mugs. She authorised both White Papers, keeping the one a secret from almost everyone whilst babbling “Brexit means Brexit” to deliberately deceive us. This is state lying on a scale akin to Tony Blair’s Dodgy Dossier.
July 17, 2018
Hence the ……………..finding of the Electoral Commission to provide momentum for another referndum. Hence Soams and the like are demanding it already. Idiots. Printing Patel has already asked serious questions to the Electorial Commissin about Remain campaign, Guido showed evidence that is being ignored by the EC.
Today Guido produces the email showing Leave were not invited to give evidence as the alleged evidence was against the group. In commercial law the company is a ‘third’ person so how come directors, ceos get summoned to court? Based on th nonsensical EC view no one should ever get convicted on the that basis!
July 17, 2018
On World at One today, it was suggested by a contributor that the Leave Campaign had categorically broken the law and that was that. If it should transpire, how can the people under investigation now get a fair trial with such a public declaration? The police should not now touch it with a barge pole. It is tainted.
July 17, 2018
We know the event, white papers, Large Companies, the msm, the comments and threats by the EU have all been choreographed to prevent Brexit. I think we are heading to revolution brought on by the remainiac’s who won’t accept the democratic vote of the people in the referendum. So be it. The legacies will be toast!
July 17, 2018
Yes. Channel4 making a big deal of the Vote Leave overspend story. Soames trying to spin it into a reason to abandon Brexit.
The Remain attempt to tie us to the Customs Union if talks stall today failed to secure enough votes.
Theoretically that could mean we can go to WTO terms. However, there is a long way to go. The House of Lords can play up. The numbers for various scenarios will need to be monitored with intense scrutiny.
July 17, 2018
Peter Wood: âUnder whose control might that be?ââŠ.
Does anyone really need to ask? The answer was given back in 1957 (the year the precursor organisation to the EU was founded) by the Salzburg-born political scientist Leopold Kohr (1909 – 1994). He wrote in his best-known work, ‘The Breakdown of Nations’, that a federal Europe would be an ‘Unsuccessful Federation’ because:
“European federation, based on its great national blocks, unequal in size and strength, would in the end become a federation in the interest of Germany, because Germany alone would be large enough to enforce a federal law, and no law could be enforced without Germany’s consent. Germany would be arbiter and master.”
Who did Cameron have to go grovelling to for his ‘thin gruel’ of a deal? Merkel. Who pulls the strings of the Greek economy? Merkel. Who unilaterally rolled out the welcome mat for hundreds of thousands of supposed refugees, then ordered other countries to take their ‘fair share’? Merkel. To whom did Theresa May show the Chequers deal before sharing it with her Cabinet? Merkel.
What more evidence does anyone need that Kohr called it right in 1957?
July 17, 2018
“Yesterday’s debate was dominated by people who have never run complex supply chains, who were unwilling to accept they work fine with non EU as well as with EU parts”
Amazing, So where were these people getting their incorrect information/idea’s from, to debate so strongly.
This actually shows Parliament at its worst, that politicians who are totally ignorant and lack experience of the facts in a particular area, can hold up or form legislation, simply because they have been lobbied by a vested interest.
The MOD has had a system in place for tracking the detail of all parts made, inspected and tested before I started working as an apprentice toolmaker 55 years ago !
What else do they not know !
No wonder this is taking so long, and seems to be so complicated !
July 17, 2018
When I was a metal surfacing technician in a jet engine overhaul factory every single bolt, washer and nut was tagged and numbered with a full history of servicing. That was thirty years ago !
July 17, 2018
We did lots of trade other than EU.
July 17, 2018
Completely right.
The Remainer narrative [and narrative is all they have] is astonishingly ignorant, their claims of “catastrophic consequences” are orders of magnitude worse than the [defensible-ish] ÂŁ350m NHS claims that so irk them.
The “debate” began with Soubry, bless, revealing she’d been to a factory, finally, last week, to see what j-i-t invovled, rather exposing the total lack of basis for any of her grandstanding opposition to the whole process.
JR – well done. But what the ERG need to do, PR wise, is SHOW, not EXPLAIN why the arguments are right, and “Project Fear” is Bullsh1t…. how about accelerated time lapse video showing the Ontario, and Irish, borders in operation, with voiceover of the background paperwork.
You NEED to SHOW not TELL – the audience who hav’n’t yet understood the simplicity of the case for Brexit are TOO STUPID and BORED to pay attention – they need spoon feeding.
July 17, 2018
Parliament is by definition an amateur organisation. Very few have any actual knowledge or it would seem the will to seek out facts. Much easier to just spout the party line and adjourn to the tea rooms.
July 17, 2018
“…Yesterdayâs debate was dominated by people who have never run complex supply chains..”
Nor driven a truck, nor worked in the loading and despatch bays of factories, nor worked in the simplest of environments on farms, petrol stations, shops, factories or warehouses.
X and Y components do not turn up magically like a finely tuned machine. In fact such perfect machines are a fantasy.
Only a fool would try to set up the logistics on that basis.Except for a surgeon who needs to be handed the right instrument from a couple of feet away. He doesn’t expect a cranial drill to pop into his hand from half way across Europe. It doesn’t happen EU or no EU.
Remoaners are in panic trying to find fault to justify their treachery. But they show they are completely out of touch from the British workers and just what they have to do at work. Actually their ignorance of WORK is an insult to all of us.
July 17, 2018
They are trying to find a plausible method of defying the referendum whilst making seem to be our idea.
I’m all for them defying it openly. A good second best to leaving altogether.
Brexit has caught a lot of people out.
July 17, 2018
If you go into an Audi dealer and order a part and they don’t have it in stock – they order it and tell you to come in the next day. That evening it is picked from a warehouse in Germany, shipped overnight by one of the big logistics companies, and delivered to the Audi dealership the next morning.
Many supply chains work like that these days. It is not a fantasy at all.
July 21, 2018
Tell that to The Post Office
July 21, 2018
JR will not have time to read and publish this addition. But the container or lorry cannot leave the German warehouse until it is full for hopefully one UK destination. It will stay in one of the loading bays or container parking areas until enough orders are received to fill it up. If it is of part orders to different destinations then they are loaded in delivery-order of the UK. You can’t have a lorry being part loaded and reloaded to get to a part order at the front of the container. Some containers are not filled for days as a result.
Of course all operatives responsible for loading, also must take breaks, have holidays, go sick, jack in the job and get another.
The EU lorry drivers are only allowed to drive for a set number of hours by law and must stop for hours, sleep, rest. Even with two drivers they have to stop at regular truck stops, queue up, eat, wash etc with meals they must eat.
British firms have an opt-out from EU regulations. Our drivers work very much harder and longer than EU drivers. Our trucks are therefore more economical as machines and drivers as they are in continuous production and use.
The whole of Germany does not sit around awaiting one solitary order from the UK for one small part.
All this is planned and firms or at least UK warehouses supplying stores put in standard regular orders for parts from abroad. It is the only reliable way.
When Rolls Royce was British, many years ago, a Rolls Royce car miraculously broke down, unthinkable! But in the Sahara desert. Rolls Royce flew in a mechanic and landed in the desert. Fixed it within 24 hours. Vorsprung Durch Technik
July 17, 2018
I gave up reading when I saw your not so subtle reference to Grieve. Typically political and oh so revealing. True colours now shining through
July 17, 2018
It is all getting very interesting now. Clean Brexit hopes are improving. Collecting taxes on behalf of others seems onerous but if the EU have to do the same it makes the prospect unlikely.
An early end to this parliamentary session would not be a good idea. Best to build on the momentum while the PM is on the ropes. She can deny Chequers Deal is dead in the water but everyone knows that it is.
July 17, 2018
I do not understand what of value has been achieved re the customs union apart from delaying it and demonstrating the depth if feeling against it. This is another of her manoeuvres, continue as is, bring it back for the primary legislation having bought off more MPs using the âpayrollâ and force it through!
Nothing on migration so relying on the EC to reject that proposal or diverging from existing laws on the environment etc, keeping procurement, staying and presumably paying to stay in umpteen institutions, incidentally what will our fees be based on, is it a flat sum or a percentage relating to our economy size?
The supply chain issue and indeed much else, especially the lack of any detailed rebuttal of âyourâ comments indicates that your opponents are ideological not practical. If Greg Clark in his important role does not understand or is not prepared to learn, he is not fit for the role.
I see now No 10 is now trying to close Parliament early to protect Theresa May from criticism. A small cabal out if touch with reality as evidenced by them not realising the scale of anger amongst their members. No reflection on you Dr Redwood but in the wider community not only anger but derision.
July 17, 2018
Shut early to prevent Boris speaking against her in the house tomorrow, further publicising her duplicity, lies and deceit!
July 17, 2018
Everything you said this morning is logical and makes good sense but, the Remainers in The Civil Service and the Treasury, working hand in hand with MPs like Soubry and their friends in Brussels will do everything to ensure it won’t happen.
The nonsense over the Irish border is typical. If only Bertie Ahearn was still Taoiseach
we would have a sensible and friendly ally across the Irish Sea. Bertie has already said the border should be no problem. I suspect he would have just told Juncker and Merkel that our two governments would sort it and they would have to go along with what was decided on a bilateral basis.
Unfortunately that inexperienced idiot Varadkar is neither sensible or friendly to the UK. He takes his orders straight from Merkel and Juncker without questioning them. He fails to understand the damage that will be done to the Eire economy if there is not a sensible deal between us.
His only reward for frustrating Brexit will be the long-planned harmonisation of corporation taxes which will do immense damage to his economy. Sooner or later Eire will need our help again. I can’t see a Conservative Government running to help Varadkar when the time comes.
July 17, 2018
‘I can’t see a Conservative government running to help Varadkar when the time comes’.
I can, they’re stupid enough for anything!
If I were Theresa May, I’d be quietly reminding Varadkar via a back-channel how much his country depends on exports to the UK, and that the danger with biting a hand that feeds them is that hand can suddenly be withdrawn. I am sure I could be most persuasive.
Far better for Varadkar to accept the reality, play down the over-inflated border issue, and be more accommodating to the UK, but I can’t see him doing that somehow. He likes the attention given to him by the EU and his new-found but completely false feeling of importance. He clearly needs somebody to burst his bubble, but I have no faith that Mrs. May is that person.
Tad
July 18, 2018
I couldn’t agree more !
July 17, 2018
When we leave the EU on 29th March 2019, we should take half a day holiday to celebrate. This would set the remoaners mind at rest. EU truckers will have four extra hours, ongoing, to fix the mythical “waiting for parts” to turn up in Anna Soubry’s constituency.
July 17, 2018
So I buy parts from a supplier, who imports them from the US. Now let’s suppose there is a lower UK than EU tariff on these parts. Does my supplier have to pay an import duty for the EU? After all, he doesn’t know whether they will end up in the EU or not. I can’t tell him, because I’m ordering for stock.
Can anyone shed light on this?
July 17, 2018
You would pay anyway, not the supplier.
But yes, this is the reason it can’t work. Some parts could be sold on several times and held for months or years pending use. You’d never be able to separate parts which are eventually consumed or used in the UK from those in the EU. Also there would be a good market for contraband where x was stated to be consumed in the UK.
July 17, 2018
Well, before yesterday evening you might have been be able to work that out from the summary rules proposed in paragraph 16 of the White Paper:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/725288/The_future_relationship_between_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_European_Union.pdf
“16. This would mean:
a. where a good reaches the UK border, and the destination can be robustly
demonstrated by a trusted trader, it will pay the UK tariff if it is destined for the UK and the EU tariff if it is destined for the EU. This is most likely to be relevant to
finished goods; and
b. where a good reaches the UK border and the destination cannot be robustly
demonstrated at the point of import, it will pay the higher of the UK or EU tariff.
Where the goodâs destination is later identified to be a lower tariff jurisdiction, it
would be eligible for a repayment from the UK Government equal to the difference
between the two tariffs. This is most likely to be relevant to intermediate goods.”
But that must be in question now that MPs have decided by a majority of 3 that the UK will not slavishly carry on collecting the EU’s customs duties for it even after we have left the EU unless the EU agrees to a reciprocal arrangement, that is unless the Lords strike down that amendment and the government gives in to them, or alternatively the EU actually agrees to make it a reciprocal arrangement.
I hope this helps … đ
July 17, 2018
Chaos in the UK and the EU. We would be sure to pick up all those refunds from the French and Spanish. Olly must be off his……
July 17, 2018
You mean it’s a measure to make my life a misery?
It’s got “civil service” written all over it.
July 17, 2018
Yesterday’s debate was dominated by people talking very loudly about a small percentage of the UK economy, that part of the 12% of our GDP which is exported to the EU and which also relies on complex transnational supply systems for efficiency, but pretending that what they said applied to the whole economy, constantly looking to cater for the special needs of maybe 3% of the businesses in the UK while ignoring the effects on the other 97%.
July 17, 2018
Well that seems to have got that piece of legislation straightened out and workable whatever the outcome of our relationship with the EU. Like you I am amazed at the level of ignorance in Parliament on the subject of international trade and the spurious arguments that arise from the lips of some MPs. It is not as if this information is a secret, it can all be looked up or much better asked of somebody who knows.
July 17, 2018
One reason that MPs are so ill-informed about trade is that too many of them are lawyers. This has the knock-on effect that they are able to argue both for and against the same proposition with no sense of shame – one example is Sourby and co putting forward their own wrecking amendments to government bills but then arguing against the right of the ERG to do exactly the same.
July 17, 2018
Do we want to be out of the EU VAT system? What now happens to businesses who can currently zero rate invoices to customers with EU VAT numbers? Presumably in future we will have to raise VAT on them? Was this debated?
Reply We will run our own VAT system and treat incoming German product as we do US product today
July 17, 2018
Sorry thatâs not an answer to my question. At the moment if you supply goods or services to a customer with an EU VAT number then you can zero rate the invoice. Will this continue?
July 17, 2018
Richard1, That is not the case – if you fail to charge VAT to your customers where it is due, you will find yourself facing the wrath of HMRC. And believe me the HMC part of HMRC are the nastier half.
My business was registered for VAT and my customers were too. The only time I did not charge VAT was for my (rEU) export customers. All of this was detailed on my monthly VAT returns.
Of course I reclaimed VAT I had paid out to my suppliers, when I sold my products on to the next stage in the VAT chain. Since I always added value (otherwise I would not have been solvent) I always had a monthly VAT bill to pay (VAT charged less VAT paid).
July 17, 2018
Perhaps it isnât possible to answer this question now, it is TBD. But I recommend the issue is considered carefully. If U.K. service providers to EEA customers have in future to raise VAT where today itâs zero rated it will be a material competitive disadvantage. The workaround will be to invoice from EEA subsidiaries (& repatriate profit where possible / appropriate). But this is bound to be disadvantageous from the point of view of U.K. tax receipts and balance of payments. Smaller service businesses which donât have this workaround available will be disadvantaged. This is a detail which Brexit supporting MPs need to inform themselves about and have a coherent policy on Iâd recommend.
July 17, 2018
Reply to reply: Indeed, I presume HMRC are designing a new form without Box 6 as we speak, and have the accounts package companies on board??
July 17, 2018
Surely the Chequers paper is now toilet roll.
Brussels will never agree to collect taxes for Britain and they will insist we follow VAT rules.
When we leave the VAT should be scrapped and a sales tax introduced. It’s funny how only the EU has this beaurocratic nightmare of a tax
July 17, 2018
If they don’t know anything about complex supply chains, TIR etc what are they doing debating the issue in Parliament?
July 17, 2018
What surprised me about yesterdays debate, no one ever once mentioned the UN’s TIR convention in relation to goods crossing international borders (did I miss a perhaps a solitary mention?), such was the silence on this I had to check that it was still extant -it is, as you imply, what is more countries are still signing up to the convention. Thus I’m glade you mention it above, why does no one on the Brexit side mention it when intervening or in reply to the likes of that overly shrill Anna Soubry who keeps banging on about “two hour customs checks” at our freight ports post Brexit.
July 17, 2018
You are correct. The debate was dominated by people who have not run complex supply chains and who do not understand trade. Hard-right Tory pensioner Brexiteers – and a few brave Remainers.
Big businesses like Airbus, BMW, Honda, John Lewis and many others who do actually run complex supply chains are unanimous that Brexit – any Brexit – is bad for business. Why are they – who have actually run modern businesses – wrong, when hard-right Tory pensioners – who have mostly never run anything – not?
Reply Most big businesses running complex supply chains happily use non EU components today without difficulty. There is no problem here.
July 17, 2018
You mean, “bad for their business”. Not for business which has nothing to do with exporting to the EU and/or relying on transnational supply chains.
It should be obvious even to you that the correct approach must be to make special arrangements for the minority of businesses which have developed a heavy reliance on such integrated supply chains.
Sir Bernard Jenkin, yesterday:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-07-16/debates/B3ED8272-3DF1-464E-8ABA-701A376E6A2C/Taxation(Cross-BorderTrade)Bill#contribution-C4326C7C-19D8-45EF-8FCC-86FD4495CAB8
“That is not actually correct. It is quite common in a free trade agreement to have what is known as an auto-pact, so that there can be frictionless arrangements, for example for the motor industry. The same could apply for aerospace.”
It is only a matter of political will. Having devised one legal arrangement, the EU Single Market, which makes it permissible for numerous truckloads of automotive components to be routinely waved in and out of the country with no delays, there is no reason at all why some alternative legal arrangement should not be devised so that the same convenient practice can continue. Incidentally a/the customs union alone would not do that, it needs the Single Market laws.
July 17, 2018
Yes, Denis, you are right as usual but the problem is that the EU has no intention of making anything easy or sensible, let alone convenient because their primary intention is to punish the UK for leaving.
The idea of us switching from VAT to a sales tax should be examined in detail. It would remove the need for paying VAT on importation and everything exported from the UK to the EU would be sent tax free so they can then charge their own VAT rate electronically on entry.
It works very well in the US ( although they don’t currently have State law in place to properly cover online sales between States.)
Nobody here will be sad to see VAT go.
July 17, 2018
Andy,
Yes, making supply chains flexible and robust is tough, we have seen large firms get this wrong before with single supplier relationships. I ‘guess’ a difficulty now is that the UK has spent two years getting nowhere, neither exiting (as favoured by the electoral majority) or remaining (as favoured by the majority of MPs), this adds uncertainty to a complex situation. As well as downside risk, consultants have already written on the possible upsides of future trade deals for SCM which become possible when (if) the UK is able to independently make deals with the rest of the world. (There is much good tech outside the EU).
July 17, 2018
@Caterpillar; Who elected all those “remain” loving MPs, if not the electorate!
Again you miss the real problem, a minority government trying to carry policy (be it Brexit or Remain based) that neither a majority of MPs want and something the electorate have never been asked directly for an opinion, only indirectly via general election manifestos.
July 17, 2018
Who selected them, or rather foisted them on the constituency associations?
July 17, 2018
This is where the future of the Tory party is in its own hands. They need to select the right people who have resonance with voters. That isn’t to say a successful candidate needs to be earthy to have an affinity with the common man who makes up the bulk of the electorate, but they must always be honest and of the highest integrity (as in the case of Jacob Rees-Mogg). They must serve their constituents before their own interests, and really mean it when they take the oath of loyal allegiance.
Regrettably, these tests have not been rigorous enough in the past, and that has given us the present impasse. In the short-term, de-selection must remain an option, but wouldn’t be necessary had Cameron given us the right of recall.
Tad
July 17, 2018
Jerry,
I agree with there are issues with our electoral system, in other threads I have argued for mixed member proportional, but on the subject of Brexit a single question was asked and an answer was given. The main points of my post here though are (1) uncertainty is a problem which would not be the case if the referendum result were followed, and (2) there are upside supply chain possibilities as well for some.
July 17, 2018
@Caterpillar; We were asked IF the UK should leave, no one has been asked HOW. Brexit has never been a single issue question, if it were the Tory party would speak with a single voice, as would each of the parties.
In the absence of the opportunity to express a direct opinion about How the UK should leave the UK the electorate took second best, making the 2017 general election just as much about Brexit options as care homes costs etc. and how they should be funded.
July 17, 2018
Jerry, We were asked, in a Referendum authorised by Parliament, what outcome we wanted. We weighed up the pros and cons just as we do at general election time, and decided to Leave. We voted for no national subservience to the EU whatsoever. David Cameron’s fudge was rejected.
July 18, 2018
@NickC; Stop peddling your lie, all you do is show up either your total ignorance or your total disdain for democracy, sorry to say but I’m staring to believe it’s the latter…
Please see my reply to @Caterpillar above, sans the obvious typo.
July 18, 2018
Jerry, The question of how we leave is a procedural issue, and not something that can be used to destroy the outcome we voted for. You are either confused yourself, or trying to confuse others, that the end result can be anything other than Leave. And you are doing this to promote your hobby-horse of a weird half-in/half-out outcome that nobody voted for, and wasn’t on the ballot paper.
July 19, 2018
@NickC; You have a very asymmetrical view of what democracy is and is not. And you are doing this to promote your hobby-horse of a weird hard Brexit outcome that nobody voted for, and wasnât on the ballot paper [1], ho-hmm!
Our future relationship with the EEC/EU has always been a procedural one since we were first asked if we wanted to join during the mid to late 1950s -the people elect, the government decides- unless you wish government to embrace the Swiss model, many more direct democracy referenda…
[1] apart from being the UKIP manifesto at general elections, remind me how many voted UKIP got total, out of the total electorate, in 2017
July 17, 2018
Tut tut. Using âpensionerâ as a pejorative. Appalling ageism. Off to diversity training for you.
Everywhere around you you will see goods and components of items (electronic components for example) marked with the letters CE in logo form. Once you start looking youâll see it everywhere. Many people mistakenly think this logo somehow relates to EU standards. It doesnât. It is the China export mark – those goods and components came from China under WTO terms. How come there arenât massive two hour queues at our ports for Sourbyâs customs checks on those ?
July 17, 2018
@Roy Grainger; “Many people mistakenly think this [CE] logo somehow relates to EU standards. It doesnât. It is the China export mark”
Duh, that would be why a EU manufactured transformer, made not six miles away from were I live in the UK has a CE mark… CE does NOT stand for “China Export”!
2008 MEP’s question
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=P-2007-5938&language=EN
2008 Commission reply
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2007-5938&language=EN
Official CE mark page
http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/ce-marking/
July 17, 2018
But it can indeed mean “China Export”.
A CE mark indicating a product conforms to EU regulations carries the CE marking as specified for all CE marking Directives in the EUâs NLF framework regulation, 765/2008/EC, Annex II.
Though there is no official “China Export” mark some Chinese products carry a very similar marking meaning China Export which isvirtually indistinguishable from the EU CE mark, and there are fake versions of both.
Bear in mind though that the EU CE mark is self certification, it does not guarantee that the marked product is compliant or has beenested. Caveat emptor.
July 18, 2018
@David Price; By that logic the CE mark could equally mean Chile Export, Canada Export, Cambodia Export or any other country name that starts with the letter C, assuming those countries export such products to the EU, sorry but CE meaning ‘China Export’ is a MYTH.
As for your last paragraph, indeed, (as the EU acknowledge themselves) but that is were manufacture/import due diligence and QC comes in. Any imported product, batch sampled, that doesn’t meet the specification for sale in the EU would be rejected/returned and not further distributed to retailer or end user. No such marking, not even the UK’s BSI mark, will ever combat fraud and counterfeit products, as you say, Caveat emptor.
July 17, 2018
If anyone who supports the result of the referendum is in your eyes “hard right” does that make everyone who wants to stay in the EU thetefore hard left ?
July 17, 2018
The Brexiteers need their heads banging together and stop all this ideology of theirs, start being patriotic and stepping away from this absolute shambles that our country has been reduced to.
We must be in a customs union of some description. The Hard Right must not win, we are being betrayed and dragged down.
No, I’m not Hard Left, it is just that you Brexit people have moved off the scale of reasonable Right of centre.
The country did not vote for the catastrophe that has been caused by the Hard Right wanting more and more.
Still, us Remainers will patriotically fight on for our country which sadly the unpatriotic Brexiteers keep trying to destroy.
July 18, 2018
“Absolute shambles” ….continued growth lower unemployment record numbers in work deficit down with record tax revenues, exports up house prices up
Everything you remain fanatics predicted….the opposite has happened
All your Project Fear predictions are now seen as lies.
We voted to leave the EU
Not remain still in it.
Be like all the 160 other free independent nations
Trying to smear anyone who voted to leave as hard right is a despicable tactic which won’t work.
Because it isn’t true.
July 18, 2018
B&G, Until you can produce evidence to show that uniquely the UK cannot be an independent nation in the world, as 160+ others are, you have no case to argue. Your claim that you are patriotic in forcing the UK to be a vassal state of the EU, and against the wishes of the majority, is a gross misuse of language which shows the depths of your enslavement to EU ideology.
July 20, 2018
@Edward2; I do not call “anyone who supports the result of the referendum” the hard right, I am calling those on this site who think they can take a idealogical land-grab the hard right.
How many times do I have to point out the fact, the country was asked If the UK should leave the EU, that is all., There were many on the right and indeed left who voted ‘Out’ but do not want what those on the hard right want – any more than those who voted to Remain wanted a hard Euro-fedralist version of staying in the EU.
July 17, 2018
@Andy; My father worked for a company that imported/exported perishable goods before and after the UK joined the EU, until he retired the biggest problems were not customs & excise delays but (mostly UK) industrial action. Do you even understand what the TIR convention is, and how it is used even to this day when companies “have complex supply chains” with JIT stock control.
July 17, 2018
@Andy,
Didn’t you notice the timing of the JLR and Airbus warnings just before the Chequers statement? It was orchestrated by the govt.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/14/airbus-fury-loss-raf-deal-brexit-warning/
July 17, 2018
None of us were surprised or believed it anyway. The public aren’t fooled by the remainiacs rubbish anymore!!
July 17, 2018
And Airbus has now complained that after issuing their Project Fear communiquĂ© , the UK government didn’t even give them the RAF deal as a quid pro quo. ‘We lied for you, and you let us down. It’s all sooooo unfaaaaair.’
July 17, 2018
Mancunius, Spot on. I found it rather funny too, in a depressing sort of way – the biter bit.
July 17, 2018
Precisely.The synchronised yapping of the running dogs of Remain!
July 17, 2018
Our Govt should be fit for governing without struggling or having to be dragged in the right direction by the fewer who are loyal to the wishes of the people they support.
Parliament tolerates many chumps. 5-year stints are too long for several of the unworthy wasters to occupy seats before being removed.
July 17, 2018
I was struck, yesterday, by a TV interview between a Sky News presenter and a senior manager of an Italian aerospace group. The manager was coming out with all the usual rubbish about friction and the like, while offering support for May’s Vassalship plan. And under gentle questioning what did he confess? That most of his company’s suppliers for the UK side of his business were in, er, the USA and, er, the UK. I was so unsurprised. Scratch an argument from ‘business’ and you’ll find nothing but spin. Politicians, like British reporters, need to get into the habit of NOT taking arguments at face value. Dr Liam Fox, who set out his international trade consultation plans yesterday, needs to keep this firmly in mind.
July 17, 2018
The remainers constantly repeat the mantra “no one voted to be worse off” and then tell us all the ills that will follow leaving the EU and their costs. I am inclined not to believe the continuing “project fear” catalogue of dire consequences. It hasn’t been true up to now and I doubt it will be. However, even if leaving the EU (preferably with no deal, on WTO rules and saving ÂŁ39B) does leave us all worse off, I still want to do it. I did vote leave knowing that I might be worse off, contrary to what the remainers say, and I don’t care. I am convinced we’ll be better off in the long run and even if we aren’t, I think it’s worth it to get back control.
July 17, 2018
BCL, Agreed.
July 17, 2018
Vote Leave being persecuted and threatened with prison. How many political prisoners would that be under the May Regime? I’ve lost count.
July 17, 2018
Please note the ÂŁ9 million spent by Shameron on the Government propaganda leaflet to every home. Whilst within the rules it clearly wasn’t within the spirit of them. Priti Patel has also sent a catalogue of overspends to the remain electoral commission by the remain groups, showing collusion and significant overspend. Guido outed their evidence today and earlier. Its all remainiac biase and nonsense! Just deliver the complete Brexit not half in under their rules forever! Its like Groundhog day every day!!
July 17, 2018
And so the May Robbins bill is going through with the UK complying with EU standards for all goods and agricultural products, employment law, environmental law, and any other law that they wish to bring in. While the department for exiting is stripped out and Robbins is in charge at no 10 during the long summer break. Will anyone know whether they have got around to instructing HMRC to prepare for WTO?
July 17, 2018
Please tell us I’m wrong on this John.
July 17, 2018
Awful woman. How did she end up in the Tory party? As an act of revenge I’m tempted to canvas for UKIP or anyone other candidate in her constituency at the next election and pay for a lorry poster driving around stating, “Never trust a Tory on the EU”! She, Morgan, Grieve, Clarke should NOT be allowed anywhere near the levers of power. It reflects on how bad Shameron’s pretend negotiations were. I can imagine this rabble laughing at the gullible plebs in Cabinet as he pretended to reform the EU!
Theresa May’s shenanigans show how underhanded all legacy leaders have been since Thatcher, working against the interests of the English people. Finally and without doubt exposed! This will not be forgotten.
July 17, 2018
@Timaction; “As an act of revenge Iâm tempted to canvas for UKIP”
Vote UKIP, get Corbyn!
July 17, 2018
Vote May, get Corbyn.
July 17, 2018
Jerry, the self-destructive implosion of the Tory Party is not the electorate’s responsibility, but that of May and the Remainer Tories who have refused to carry out the country’s demand. The remedy is in the hands of CCHQ – and I would slash Opposition frontbench pay in order to concentrate the Tory minds on a future win. All MPs seem to enjoy lounging around the Opposition frontbenches far too cosily.
Ukip and Farage are just waiting in the wings.
July 18, 2018
@mancunius; “the self-destructive implosion of the Tory Party”
Oh the irony of a UKIPer writing such hyperbolic tosh. Do remind us how many Mp’s UKIP have, do remind us what the UKIP total share of the vote in 2017 (number or percentage, either will do), never mind reminding us how many leaders the party has had since 2016 – there is only one party that is suffering from a self-destructive implosion…
As for your suggestion, the miss use of GCHQ, the undemocratic parliamentary action you suggest, that says far more about the type of people UKIP attract than anything else, but you should be very careful, if GCHQ were to use their powers in the ways you suggest you never know what they might unearth about UKIP too, a very double edged sword indeed.
July 19, 2018
What on earth are you talking about? I said ‘CCHQ’ – CCHQ is Tory Central Office. GCHQ is government surveillance HQ.
And just a reminder that Ukip would not need to win a single seat in order to make the Tories lose big-time in marginal seats: Labour would hoover them up. All it would need is many former Tories voting for Ukip out of protest – as we know will inevitably now happen unless May is replaced.
That was the reason why Cameron knew he had to offer a referendum in January 2013. At the time Ukip’s support had risen to 12%. In the last fortnight alone, Ukip support has risen from 3% to 9%, and it is still rising.
No Tory MP likes the prospect of electoral suicide.
July 17, 2018
Jerry, Vote UKIP, get UKIP. The LibLabCon has swallowed the absurd Remain notion that we voted to Leave in order to remain partly in the EU. Only UKIP is saying that the outcome of voting Leave is, well, Leave.
July 18, 2018
@NickC; I know someone who voted UKIP in 2010, he got the most europhile government every, he even had to suffer obscenity of the party leader telling the nation that it was UKIP who done it!
If you want the UK to stay in the EU, by all means vote UKIP…
July 17, 2018
Doesn’t matter now this white paper will not be accepted in Brussels anyhow and will be signalled by Barnier as such next week..so time now for the ‘hols’
July 17, 2018
No, they’ve not earned their eon-lengthed ‘holiday’ just yet.
But then, you knew that already đ
July 17, 2018
Not so sure about that. I would have though that the EU would like to keep Weak and Wobbly in power as they know that she will capitulate to all of their demands.
I expect to hear some encouraging noises from Brussels over the White Paper, certainly enough to keep May in power here.
So is it worth replacing May just to keep the EU on it’s toes?
Who with? certainly not two faced Gove….
July 17, 2018
It’s quite depressing that we elect 650 members to our sovereign national Parliament and then it turns out that about 300 of them don’t want us to control our own trade policy and are perfectly content for us to continue collecting the EU’s customs duties after we have left the EU and without even asking them to return the favour. These people don’t believe in our national sovereignty and democracy and should not be in our Parliament.
July 17, 2018
@Denis
You can blame the people that elected them!
July 17, 2018
No, the people that selected them.
July 17, 2018
I think not Bob. What did the manifestos say about honouring the referendum and sovereignty? Both Labour and Conservative campaigned on that, so voters looked at other issues on which to vote e.g. the ill conceived tax rises apparently dreamt up by Nick Timothy. The left liberal statist type policies of Theresa May are not attractive to voters. Grassroot conservatives are not going to support May’s definition of Conservatism (let alone her failures on Brexit).
July 17, 2018
@Chris
Manifestos are not legally enforceable, before voting you need to look at the track record and background of the person you’re voting for and the ideology of their party. On that basis, what Leave voter would have marked their ballot for Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, Theresa May, Anna Soubry or Sarah Woolaston?
The Tory Party took us into the Common Market and have steadily yielded our sovereignty to the point where the mere mention of independence throws them into a bed-wetting frenzy. A small rump of true conservatives are retained in the party as a fig leaf to hide the true nature of the party.
July 17, 2018
I prefer to blame those who control the prior approval and final selection of the parliamentary candidates who have some chance of winning a seat.
July 17, 2018
@Denis
They select, you elect.
July 17, 2018
Exactly!
July 17, 2018
Parliament going into the summer recess early is a very bad idea. They should remain until all the work on leaving the EU has been completed and full preparation has been put in place for no deal.
Parliament is where we, the electorate, are able to see what is being done and said. The civil servants do not communicate so we are completely unaware of progress, or lack of it in the absence of our MP’s.
July 17, 2018
The UK is already a WTO member as presently bundled with the EUâs WTO membership. Reestablishing UKâs WTO status in its own right means first that the UK and EU27 are to negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO members (around 130+ of them) to extract their separate membership terms. Then the UK has to negotiate with the USA, China, India, Russia, the EU27 itself, and any trading nation or group of them.
As I understand (maybe wrongly) that WTO operates by consensus not voting, it seems that some objections from any of the other nations could hold up the talks. If the UK is to become a country with no or low import duties across the board and no or minimal subsidies for its farmers, fisherpeople, the talks in such case could be (very?) easy, but it might create some domestic opposition within the categories affected by a potential drop in their earnings.
So it is not clear (to me at least) that going to a WTO agreement with the trading community at large will be such a painless, fast and easy process? How long can it take? one year, two years, more?
Is this a correct way to see the UK going to a WTO deal?
Reply You don’t understand how it works. The UK can file its proposed schedule of tariffs, which it will apply. Any member that objects to one or more of them has to lodge an objection and show they would lose from the proposal. The WTO then adjudicates the matter
July 17, 2018
Puffer Fish, That’s not the case. The individual EU states are members of the WTO in their own right. The EU is registered at the WTO as a Plurilateral RTA under the title “EU (28) Enlargement”, conforming to GATT Art. XXIV & GATS Art. V, notified 25 April 2013. Only the 28 states are the signatories, not the EU itself. After 29 March 2019, the UK will no longer be a signatory. The UK will then be free to make our own RTAs and MRAs under WTO rules, with our trading partners, unless Mrs May locks us back under the thumb of the EU.
July 17, 2018
Thank you.
July 17, 2018
PLEASE note: I am 99% certain that Barnier & EU27 will agree to negotiate on the current proposal, and I am 100% certain they want Brexiteers to think they will not, for as long as possible, to give Brexiteers a false sense of security. There was an opinion piece in yesterday’s Frankfurter Allgemeine (CDU organ, ie Merkel-aligned), which has now totally disappeared. It said that the ‘cautious Brexit’ put forward by Mrs May is the only sensible compromise.
I watched the whole thing (doing the accounts). I don’t know how our host has the patience to sit quietly while the hon member for Broxtowe perorates, spouting nonsense about just-in-time manufacturing and supply chains. A huge amount of rubbish was said by Remainers, and there was not time to counter it. Obviously the Remainers had very carefully planned yesterday, leading up to Kenneth Clark calling on Labour, Lib Dems and SNP to vote with Conservative Remainers.
However, I think it is critically important that the message goes out to the public that we don’t need borders to track/check goods.
I see Vince Cable & Tim Farron didn’t vote on the two very narrowly won divisions.
The call for an early recess is despicable. Olly Robbins has snaffled 50 DexEU members of staff – extremely concerning in so many ways.
July 17, 2018
I assume that article was written before MPs narrowly decided that we would not continue to collect the EU’s tariffs for them unless they did the same for us.
That proposal in the new White Paper is so obviously and so utterly unreasonable that you really have to wonder about the state of mind of those who made it.
However as far as I can see this was just a vestige of the original, even dafter, idea that we should continue to apply EU tariffs to all our imports, almost as if we had not left the EU, and then reimburse companies for any excess duties paid on goods which had been destined for UK consumption.
July 17, 2018
I think you are absolutely right, Alison. The Brexiters are apparently being duped again and relying on the fact that the EU will reject May’s proposals. The White Paper should be torn up, Theresa May should be replaced by a leader utterly committed to effecting Brexit, Parliament should not go into recess, let alone go early. This has to be sorted out now. Do politicians realise how utterly contemptuous of the public they appear to just go off into recess, leaving the most important issue facing the country unresolved? Theresa May trying to bat away opposition by curtailing Parliament is a pathetic and also a dangerous move, in my view. What leader would ever do this? She has to go.
July 17, 2018
Most Conservative MPs publicly continued to give May the benefit of the doubt and refer back to her earlier statements until the Chequers statement was there in black and white for all to see.
So I am not surprised many suspect further twists and sharp practice. That is why there should be no early recess. May should continue to get a kicking until she is completely powerless. She must be finished off. It needs to be relentless now.
David Davis must have the patience of a saint to be used as a decoy for so long and basically forgive the main culprit. It would be team May constantly briefing against him in the media too.
July 17, 2018
Agreed Alison, see my post above.
I believe that the EU will make enough encouraging noises to keep Weak & Wobbly in power, at least for the time being…
July 17, 2018
Alison, You are right, the EU won’t save Brexit, and will accept Theresa May’s revolving door Remain. The EU will aim to salami slice more concessions afterwards, of course. They have form, and so do we in capitulating to it.
July 17, 2018
Sorry Mr Redwood but I still cannot see one benefit I will get from Brexit.
Just lots of extra hassle at the border.
P.S. nice French signs on the reCAPTCHA photo cheque today.
Reply We get our money and our democracy back
July 17, 2018
Martin, There’s no benefit to remaining in the EU. Everything the EU does for us we can do for ourselves, and more appropriately too. We don’t have to be a vassal state of the EU to trade with it.
I know that Remains fear we are not as advanced as we were in 1618, and are without such enviable 400 year old technology, but I believe we are still capable of trading all round the world without an oligarchy telling us what to do.
July 17, 2018
Well another vote at 6 pm in the common, this time to stay in the customs union, maybe you can table an amendment after, to stay in.
Reply We have voted down this idea three times since the referendum so far!
July 17, 2018
‘After finding Vote Leave guilty of breaking electoral law this morning, the Electoral Commission are claiming that officials from the Brexit campaign refused to attend interviews. Yet this email from Louise Edwards, the Tory-hating Electoral Commission boss, to lawyers for the Vote Leave officials says otherwise: – ‘
–
So John. When are our Leave MPs going to expose these Remain infections that have buried themselves deep within the UK body politic?
What we are seeing is no less than an institutional conspiracy targeting the entire Leave ‘movement’ and what do you and your colleagues do? NOTHING
July 17, 2018
There is a large swamp that needs draining…..
July 17, 2018
The comment by Peter Gardener on 15.7 setting out the series of deceptions and collaboration with the foreign opponent raises the question of impeachment and prosecution of those involved. Perhaps this could be put into action by a private members bill, which may well be supported by Labour and a third of the Conservatives. The UK could then be justified in withdrawing any offers made to the EU by May previous to her removal, as these would have been made illegally and with the EU acting in bad faith and maliciously. The law to restore Treason with traditional punishment could follow.
July 17, 2018
Stred, I STRONGLY agree re prosecution.
July 17, 2018
I for one would certainly be in favour of such a measure. Well overdue.
July 17, 2018
It does not matter if you get the government to completely drop the chequers plan or not or indeed whether the EU accept it or not as far as I and many others are concerned Mrs May and the civil servants are no longer to be trusted and to allow her to continue as PM is pure folly. This will bite you in the butt!
July 17, 2018
At 12.30 there will be an urgent question attempting to invalidate the referendum.
July 17, 2018
I am concerned about the issue of overspending by Vote Leave.
Where is the inquiry into the enlistment of a foreign president to campaign against Leave ? It may have cost nothing but the contribution was priceless.
July 17, 2018
Those who struggle to accept that trade can work between countries should read Roger Bootle’s article in the telgraph last Saturday.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/15/deal-no-deal-may-chose-uninspiring-fudge-instead/
July 17, 2018
Hose Pipe Bans
Would all those people stop moaning about paying their water bills regularly and being told not to use water and that they will get a ÂŁ1000 fine if they do!?
The fact you are not getting water is not a foreseen business hazard for water companies for which they should receive a fine and made to refund part of your water bill. No! It is your fault! If you had been sensible and shopped around you could easily have got a better deal elsewhere.
July 18, 2018
Our water supply was cut off on Saturday night and not restored until 6pm on Sunday due to a burst pipe. The outage covered a large area too.
Just the weather to go without a shower, especially if you had social engagements planned.
July 17, 2018
Why is Civil Servant Robbins running the govt and your party?
July 17, 2018
DaveM, I’m not sure he is. Theresa May must have authorised the second (“Robbins”) White paper some months ago. Strictly, therefore, however much he influenced her, Mrs May is responsible. Worse, it means, to put it bluntly, she has lied to her own party and the country for months.
July 17, 2018
These amendments may do the trick and succeed a clean Brexit!?
July 17, 2018
You and JRM saved the day, thanks.
I note that all the major EU’s excuses are bogus e.g. The Irish border, the Remoaners are just trying to put in some serious sounding, technical terminology (rules of origin) as they are trying to confuse and obfuscate, keep on making your arguments – they are working.
July 17, 2018
Rules of Origin are World Trade Organisation rules.
You really should familiarise yourself with them.
They are why manufacturing jobs will be going – and why you will be getting poorer.
July 18, 2018
We’ve used them for trade with the 160 nations not in the EU for years.
Not a problem.
July 17, 2018
I’m amazed that it was necessary to point out that the UK as an independent country has to have control of its own VAT regime, and that it cannot be expected to collect import duties for other countries except as a reciprocal measure. The problem with the acquisitive EU is that it does not know where it ends and everyone else begins. (‘Acquisitiveness’ – a polite term for what history books call by a more sinister name.)
I wish our courteous and refreshingly militant host ‘Good luck’ with another parliamentary
Groundhog Day – The Return of the Killer Zomby Customs Union (As trailers used to proclaim: ‘Just when you thought you were safe!)
It might be advisable to take a stake, a head of garlic, and a cross to Parliament – this vampire will not apparently easily expire.
July 17, 2018
This only the start with remainers, even if you do get through a no deal at the end, you will still have to deal with remainers in parliament wanting to vote on any and every law that the EU past for the 27, to be voted on in the UK to be pasted into the UK law where possible.
Long haul.
July 17, 2018
As an aside, there was a small admission from Caroline Lucas in yesterday’s debate:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-07-16/debates/B3ED8272-3DF1-464E-8ABA-701A376E6A2C/Taxation(Cross-BorderTrade)Bill#contribution-FA57D745-EC0F-44BE-9AB1-B347B470C05B
“I was going on to give examples of ways in which food standards in the US are much lower than our own. Many may find the prospect of eating chlorine-washed chicken disturbing. Although there appears to be no clear scientific evidence that it poses a substantial risk to human health, it is linked to poor animal welfare on farms and at slaughter …”
She might have gone further and added “… and some evidence that proper disinfection lowers the risk for consumers …”, however the point is that even she admits that any doubts about so-called “chlorinated chicken” correctly relate not to the product but to animal welfare during the process of production.
July 18, 2018
@Denis
I heard a rumour that the British mains water supply (when available) contains chlorine too.
July 17, 2018
I believe âcontinued economic alignmentâ is still in the White Paper. What does that mean?
Despite the ERGs bluster, sense of triumph over last nights amendments, it seems we are still going for the softest Brexit possible even if the customs union amendment is not overturned tonight?
Has Anna Soubry lost the plot? I suggest that if she stopped hectoring me in that shrill parroting style and calmly responded on a factual basis, I might listen to her.
July 17, 2018
Of course rather than fixing our NHS, schools and roads our MPs are currently wasting their time making things worse.
They are wasting their time erecting trade barriers with our nearest neighbours. They are wasting time adding unnecessary frictions in customs. They are wasting their time and our money duplicating regulators. They are wasting their time making the lives of millions of people harder and more bureaucratic. They are wasting so much time that they want a longer summer holiday to waste more time.
And we now know that we are in this Brexit mess because the Leavers cheated. They broke the law. Cheated. Broke the law.
Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson, Diego Maradona – vilified sporting cheats. Vote Leave is their political equivalent.
Churchill is perhaps the greatest ever Conservative. I agree with his grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames. It is time to blow all of this up and start again.
July 17, 2018
This afternoon the stench of hypocrisy in the chamber must be quite overwhelming.
July 17, 2018
Ps the Daily Mail on line is saying that No Deal would lead to chaos at the ports because of the customs checks on cross channel traffic.
I think you have countered this in the past, if so I suggest you contact the DM and put them straight, asking them for a right of reply.
July 17, 2018
We are leaving 29 march 2019..so nothing else matters..we did not vote for a new deal with them so don’t know why we need a white paper
July 17, 2018
Are they having another vote to stay in the Customs Union if there’s no deal?
I was under the impression that they’d rejected that umpteen times already.
July 17, 2018
Things are getting further out of control under May’s baton and Tory MPs really have to act, and swiftly.
Attacks in the Press are being targeted on the Leavers in a crude attempt to belittle, smear and weaken (including personal attacks e.g. on Johnson);
fear mongering articles about Brexit are being relentlessly churned out;
May is issuing ridiculous ultimatums to MPs and trying to curtail debate/action by deciding to bring forward the Parliamentary recess;
people are leaving the Conservative Party in droves and expressing their displeasure/anger at May with relish (they have simply had enough of her, and the duplicity/betrayal).
John Curtice writes a warning from the polls in D Telegraph, and Tory MPs should pay real heed to this, and take action:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/17/betrayed-deserting-tories-ukip-polls-say-leave-voters-chequers/
‘Betrayed’ and deserting the Tories for Ukip: what the polls say about Leave voters after Chequers By John Curtice
July 17, 2018
The esteemed lawyer Dominic Grieve has lent his name to a proposed amendment, New Clause 18, which appears to me to be legally unsound in more than one respect.
July 17, 2018
However there seems to be underhanded threats , which really puts us on a more equal footing with the EU who have been setting their requirements for too long.
July 17, 2018
Yes this is all good stuff and consistent for this blog but where is the Alternative Plan for Brexit”? According to so many Remainers , there isn’t one.
What about the Leave Campaign’ s “The Road to Brexit”? Their detailed plan to leave the EU? Where has that gone? Was it deemed irrelevant?
It is only a week to go before the Summer break and I fear the current Brexit impetus will die after that.
Do not let this Remainer-controlled Government win and destroy the Conservative Party in the process.
When we lose democracy in Britain, Britain is no longer a Nation and all British citizens are doomed to be just “Europeans”, totally controlled by an unelected oligarchy based in Belgium, a foreign country. World Wars were started by such megalomaniac. Stop it right here right now.
July 17, 2018
I suspect some of ’em including May, might have found themselves aware of public enragement.
Never the less for me it’s done – I won’t be voting conservative again. The only exception might be if we have a hard BREXIT and perhaps JRM in No 10.
I also expect to see a purge after 29/3/19….where anyone in public office known to or discovered to have ideological alliance outside of this country is removed from said office.
We need to rout and remove anyone in government who doesn’t put this countries interests above all else. A lot of people are now asking how these infiltrators managed to get in.
Time for a good clear out.
July 17, 2018
What ramifications if any has the Remoaner success in voting through the “regulation of medicines after Brexit.”?
Today’s Parliament was confusing. I don’t recall ever seeing before some of the MPs who spoke. How many more intrigues are there going to be?
Earlier Chloe Smith MP faced a wall of literally standing remoaners shouting, moaning , some almost in tears. Tens of repetitious questions. She had sufficient vocabulary sometimes in varying the sentence construction of her replies. Mr Speaker did nothing, as usual, by not saying “The question has been answered ad nauseam” . He did say once that perhaps MPs should sit down after having asked a question.
Remoaners are getting desperate and afraid aren’t they?
The Fake News media is on full blast Stop Brexit.
July 17, 2018
Well maybe some companies would PREFER to use EU parts rather than non-EU ones. So you’ve been running a complex supply chain recently, have you? Apologies if you have but I can’t be bothered to read your Wikipedia page.
July 18, 2018
The EU allows duty free import of raw materials, components and semi-finished products which cannot be supplied from EU or Turkish manufacturers. I would expect a UK scheme to operate similarly for our principal benefit. With the wholesale adoption of EU regs as part of the Brexit process why wouldn’t that still apply.
Perhaps you should be berating those MPs who are focused on blocking Brexit instead of establishing an environment of tangible benefit to the majority in the UK rather than just the few now foreign owned multinationals.
July 17, 2018
I just caught your brief speech tonight (Tuesday) in the Commons…. It was succinct and appropriate – You made the case very well for automatic trade across borders…
…and yet it was like you had said nothing – that you had not provided a solution to all of this… The Remoaner MP’s just kept on spilling the same old scare stories, about jobs and time delays in getting items to factories on time – It’s hard to imagine they had anybodies best interests at heart, so misguided, so full of misinformation, were they, but content to spread the false words.
The whole thing is incredible, that so many MP’s are working against our future.
July 17, 2018
Does anyone know what is really going on over the so-called negotiations ?
We have the best 50 negotiators taken out of the department for exiting the EU and transferred into the Cabinet Office under the direct command of Robbins. In a sop to Rabb, he is supposedly going to attend all the meetings between Robbins and the PM and see all the correspondence. This was certainly not the case with David Davis.
However, Robbins can always pick up the phone at any time and discuss the direction he intends to take with Mrs May. Everything can therefore be decided between the two of them before any formal meeting or correspondence thus they will continue just as before and bypass Rabb completely in the same way they utterly humiliated David Davis.
How can Rabb be the Cabinet Minister responsible for the negotiations let alone have any chance 0f directing them if Robbins is in charge and has the most direct line to the PM ?
No self-respecting Brexiteer would agree to these terms or was Dominic Rabb so desperate to get into the Cabinet that he took what is a non-job ?
July 17, 2018
Great speech in the House today!
July 17, 2018
Tell me, these high tech production projects that involve complex supply chains between the UK and the EU: do they make money? Are they profitable? It sometimes seems that multi-country production is organised so as to spread the work around, and not to minimise cost. Take Airbus for example. Or products made in Anna Soubry’s constituency.
Intuitively, it seems optimum to organise the production of complex high tech products in a single country, so that supply chains are not international. Why don’t we? What’s the best way of competing with Boeing?
July 18, 2018
“Yesterdayâs debate was dominated by people who have never run complex supply chains who were unwilling to accept they work fine with non EU as well as with EU parts.”
Indeed. I would have thought it should take only a moment’s reflection for these people to realise that BMW manufactures all over the world outside the EU. Perhaps, for these people there is no world outside the EU. They are like the flat earthers.
And they seek to strike fear into our hearts that Airbus’s supply chain can’t work across the Channel citing the alternative of China!
I don’t see why it takes hours of fierce debate to settle what should not take more than a few minutes. Too many people holding steadfastly to their ignorance with indomitable passion.
Did they even read the so-called risk assessment by Airbus. Again it is obviously not a risk assessment because it specifies neither risks nor impacts. It merely asserts that things cold be awkward ad it might have to reconsider its position. We know now it was a political statement put out at the behest of Remainer ministers.
it is not unreasonable to ask whether we have a national government of UK or an EU governorship of the British provinces?
July 18, 2018
The EU has just signed a free trade deal with Japan. Why has Mrs May not proposed a free trade deal to the EU?
July 18, 2018
Does this mean Japan has to allow freedom of movement, pay into the Brussels expense budget or comply with judgements of the ECJ?
July 18, 2018
Listening to Soubry on the Today Programme this morning, it’s clear that she has totally lost touch with reality.
She was actually calling for her own Government to cede power to a Government of National Unity with, presumably Corbyn as deputy Prime Minister ?
Of course, the interview being on the BBC, she was hardly challenged at all on this or the core subject of Brexit. She wasn’t even asked why she and her disloyal friends are still fighting over membership of a Customs Union when this was ruled out by both sides in the referendum campaign and has been voted down in Parliament three times.
Her constituency Party need to get a grip and give her a strong talking too.