The problems with socialism

Some socialists start with the best of intentions.

They say, let’s pass a law to cut the prices of basics so people can be better off.

If they do it too much businesses stop providing the goods and supermarket shelves empty.

They say, let’s tax the rich more to give money to the poor.

If they do that too much the rich take their money and their businesses, their jobs and their ideas, to a country which taxes less.

They say let’s take over profitable businesses, so we can use the profits to pay for public services

Once they’ve taken them over they usually starve them of investment and talent, driving great industries into loss and sacking employees to balance the books

They say let’s just print some money to give more to the poor

That way leads to more inflation, often leaving the very people they wanted to help worse off, unable to afford the basics.

This is something we can learn from our history books

Labour’s great nationalised industries sacked hundreds of thousands of people, lumbered taxpayers with huge losses and failed to serve the customer well.

Labour’s big spending sprees led to too much borrowing, to sterling crises and to high inflation

The final ignominy came when their policy meant the UK had to beg for a loan from the IMF, an organisation designed to help poor countries, as the country struggled from recession to recession

Labour’s tax assault on success led to the brain drain, as energetic and able people moved abroad.

This is also something we can learn again today by looking at poor Venezuela.

Mr Corbyn heralded the government of Venezuela as a new way, an alternative to the capitalism he hates in free western societies.

Thanks to laws cutting prices,to nationalisation, printing money , high taxes and state control, the economy is in collapse.

The rich and the not so rich are rushing across the border to get away from the regime that torments them

The nationalised oil industry produces precious little oil despite the huge size of the reserves, starved of capital and good management

Supermarket shelves are largely empty, with companies unwilling to make and trade in such a damaged economy

The poor have been given large increases in benefits, only to end up worse off as inflation soars to make their money almost valueless

The state keeps spending money it does not have, so inflation surges making trading almost impossible.

The UK must say No to such a dreadful diet of policies.

We can offer a much better alternative.

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  1. Newmania
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    Suppose you really cannot decide if you dislike Corbyn or Brexit more ? There is no-one to vote for at all

    • eeyore
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:54 am | Permalink

      Newmania – if you dislike Corbyn and Brexit you can vote for Mrs May. For the rest of us, content for better or worse with the democratic decision of the referendum, our unhappy choice is between socialism and Marxism. Nothing else is on offer.

      A dogged determination to ensure that the people own the state, and not the state the people, is the leitmotiv of English constitutional history. What the state could not do by force it may yet achieve by stealth, bribes and lies.

      Is the fight lost? By no means. A Tory vice chairman, Chris Skidmore, reminds us that the real Conservative party is “the political wing of the British taxpayer”. This week in Birmingham those who agree with him hope to see a robust struggle for the party’s soul. Abandon hope only if they fail.

      • margaret howard
        Posted October 2, 2018 at 11:16 am | Permalink


        “A dogged determination to ensure that the people own the state, and not the state the people, is the leitmotiv of English constitutional history”

        Pity we never achieved it. As it is we are ruled by an oligarchy with an non-elected head of state, unelected bureaucrats who tell our unelected ministers what to do topped by an unelected house of lords.

        And of course a PM who is chosen by another unelected layer of politics, either by the unions or by the establishment.

        We have the most un-free country in Europe.

        • NickC
          Posted October 3, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

          Margaret Howard, Our head of state is purely symbolic; the monarch has no political power. The HoL does need reform to make it elected – preferably by proportional representation – but it cannot hold up anything which the government has been elected on even now.

          Unlike the EU, we can elect a new government and dismiss it too. Any lack of freedom currently is because we are ruled by the EU – an artificial political construct where we cannot elect a government, cannot dismiss a government, and in which the main power base is its civil service.

        • libertarian
          Posted October 3, 2018 at 11:15 am | Permalink

          margaret howard

          All true, so you would have to be monumentally stupid to want another two layers of unelected, unaccountable people on top of all that.

          At last you understand

          Welcome to the real world, unpeeling anti democracy one layer at a time , starting at the top with the EU

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      The so-called Liberal so-called Democrats should suit you, sir.

    • NickC
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:51 am | Permalink

      Newmania, Presumably you still support the British Empire then? After all, you obviously hate the idea of a nation being independent.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:41 am | Permalink

      More pertinent, suppose you cannot decide whether you dislike Corbyn or Remaining in name only more?

    • Anonymous
      Posted October 2, 2018 at 7:13 am | Permalink

      Newmania – Take it as a sign that you are part of a tiny market too small to service.

      This is validated by the small number of people who took part in the march for a second referendum and the trouncing that the LibDems got at the last general election(the only party to stand for a second referendum.)

  2. Ian wragg
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    And we are left with the choice of Corbyn or subjugation under Chequers. Some choice.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:49 am | Permalink

      I’d prefer Corbyn for five years rather than Chequers for decades with the prospect of sliding back into the EU, which is what the pro-EU Tory leadership is planning. Not that it will affect the way I vote; in 2017 I made the mistake of trusting Theresa May as our local Tory candidate, and that will be the last time I ever vote Tory.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

        Hopefully it will not be May at the next election. So Hammond say Boris will never be Pm and lacks a grasp of detail. This from an appalling tax to death chancellor with a broken tax to death compass.

        Boris is a Tory and the position of Pm is not a detail position it needs a leader and a working compass.

        • JoolsB
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

          Totally agree. What’s more, Boris is very popular in the country at large but not with socialist EU loving Tory MPs. What a blow to democracy that they will fight tooth and nail to stop Boris being leader by putting their own interests before those of the country.

        • John C.
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

          Hammond’s ideal is not man with ideas, imagination and leadership qualities, but someone hunched over a document by candlelight, adjusting the odd word here and there.

      • Woody
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:18 am | Permalink

        Corbyn for five years would mean Venezuela for decades.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

          Don’t be ridiculous.

        • Lifelogic.
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

          Corbyn would be an appalling disaster. I still cannot believe the voters will actually fall for him and Mc Donnall’s magic money tree con trick but who knows. T May and Hammond are certainly doing their best to help ease Labour in to power, with their idiotic, half baked socialism and their fake Brexit attempted con trick.

          • Lifelogic.
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

            “Some socialists start with the best of intentions.” Well perhaps but many just start with hearts full of evil dark envy and a desite to steal assets off other people. Unfortunately they nearly lack the intellect to see the obvious consequences of their idiotic, magic money tree, greencrap pushing, virtue signallying, tax, borrow, over regulate and piss down the drain economics they endlessly push. Rather like T May and P Hammond in fact.

          • Sir Joe Soap
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

            A disaster short term but the EU would want rid of us. So the choice is either captured by the EU under May and running a high tax slowly eroding state, or a sudden jolt under Corbyn and leave the EU behind. At least we’d recover later.

      • Stred
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:22 am | Permalink

        Brighton council has just brought in HMO licensing at £700 a go and full bureaucracy plus fire, electrical, space, kitchen, bathroom, garden, energy and antisocial behaviour regulations and fines and bans. This will apply to 17,000 small houses of 2 storeys or more with more than 3 persons living in them in more than one family unit even if they are not the ants. This is being done under law passed by Conservative MPs. We may as well be under Labour.

        • Stred
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:26 am | Permalink

          Actually, is worse. It’s 3 or more persons, so my single tenant will have to tell his couple who are lodgers to split up or move.

          • forthurst
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

            Unfortunately, thousands of students are occupying houses designed for family occupation; the ‘universities’ should house their own students and not presume to take over the nearest large town’s residential accommodation thereby accentuating the housing shortage.

        • Lifelogic.
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

          Another huge tax and inconvenience for landlords and tenants. A money making scam for yet more parasites and regulators.

          Well done May!

        • Alan Jutson
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:05 pm | Permalink


          And they wonder why so many people are living on the street.

          Will get even worse if houses are under occupied because of this legislation.

          If I was into Buy to Let ( I am not) I think I would think twice, given the Regulations, cost/risk of fines, Taxation, Health and Safety, Insurance, and risk of non payment and or damage, etc, etc.

          • Lifelogic.
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

            Indeed it seem that May and Hammond want to kill the private letting sector through absurd over taxation and insane over regulation. Thus pushing up rents, decreasing the choice for tenants and damaging job mobility.

          • Stred
            Posted October 2, 2018 at 11:31 am | Permalink

            A lot of landlords are getting out now. Those with more recent investments and with mortgages without tax relief will be forced out. When they retire, they will have to depend on the state unless they have a good state employee’s pension. Landlords with long term investment will have to pay CGT on unreal gains and most will keep the property until the end. It would not be susprising if the government used retrospective tax regulations to seize the investment anyway. They have set a precedent with the CGT and now the taxing of previously legal avoidance.

        • rick hamilton
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

          In my town, which is blighted by a Labour council, it’s £850.

          They demand a floorplan with dimensions showing the location of cookers, fridges etc and in the small print there are ‘unlimited penalties’ for false declarations. So if our tenant moves the fridge does this mean I could be imprisoned for life at the say-so of some parasitic bureaucrat ?

          This is Soviet style interference into things which are none of their business and yet another reason why the Tories will not be getting my vote ever again.

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:43 am | Permalink

        Snap, although with a Davis-type leader who has spoken out, that could change. But the deadline for speaking out is now past, so it is no good Jeremy Hunt or other fence-sitters trying to appeal or triangulate.

      • Rien Huizer
        Posted October 3, 2018 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

        So what are the alternatives to the Conservative Party, assuming you would be looking for a party with a reasonable chance (and capacity) to govern? Labour? Some decent professionals but largely captive of a very flawed ideology. LibDem? Nide people, maybe some professionals but far too intellectual to appeal to the “infantry” you need to win elections. You cannot be serious that the UKIPs of this world (or worse) would have either the capacity or the opportunity (# of seats) to govern or even have a balckmailing capacity like the DUP. Of course I assume there are not many Fenians in your borough..

        • libertarian
          Posted October 3, 2018 at 6:59 pm | Permalink


          That is entirely the problem. Its a classic of what happens when you have a monopoly. There isn’t anyone else to vote for, so the Conservatives have rested on their laurels , got lazy and taken the easy route with virtue signalling and taxing. They are just copying Blair to ensure nothing like him gets elected again.

          We do not have any innovation in our political system, and that speaks volumes about the qualities of the people in it. Mind you most of the rest of Europe has some right dodgy parties hanging around making up coalition numbers , so I dont think we are as badly off in that respect as the two UK fruitcake parties UKIP & Greens will get nowhere. The Retro fruitcakes from Labour are just reselling to Andy and his young mates a promise of free stuff whilst they are still gullible, they will only get elected if the snowflakes get up in time to vote

    • Caterpillar
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

      I agree no point in supporting Tories who refuse to deliver Brexit and democracy. It will be a long time until they can be trusted, if ever, but would Corbyn and McDonnell deliver Brexit? What is the strategy?

  3. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Socialists do not take account of motivation when setting policies. They resort to authoritarianism when setting rules and then look in shock when motivated people circumvent their laws. Or in extreme circumstances fudge the results.

    Protect the weak, clip the wings of the strong slightly and step back.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:43 am | Permalink

      Socialists also suffer from an extraordinary level of smugness which clouds their authoritarian law making. They are so convinced they have the answers that they do not consider unintended consequences. Their hubris knows no bounds (although this is a trait of politicians the world over).

    • NickC
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:59 am | Permalink

      Narrow Shoulders, The problem with socialists is there is a marked discontinuity between the policies they advocate and the results they get.

      But instead of questioning their own policies, they tend to blame everything else: “it’s not my kind of socialism”; the people are horrible/greedy/wacists/selfish; capitalism/Fatcher/bankers are to blame etc, etc. As we saw in the USSR when policies went wrong it was not the policies but the people – wreckers, counter-revolutionaries – who were singled out for punishment.

      Unfortunately Jeremy Corbyn is in this mold: it is not socialism that is wrong but everything and everybody else. This has resulted in persecution in the past and will in the future. Think Blair was bad? – Corbyn, like many socialists puts dogma before real people, and is therefore by definition evil.

  4. Roy Grainger
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    The problem is that naive younger people like Andy can’t remember when we had a real socialist government. For that reasons they are taken in by arguments like “There will be a better service on nationalised railways because their main aim will be service rather than paying shareholders”. What we experienced older people who remember the last time know is that their main aim is actually pandering to their workforce who demand and get higher and higher pay rises and strike to achieve this. Another example is the low quality and reliability of the cars we got when the car industry was nationalised – you still see it in French cars.

    • Andy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:47 am | Permalink

      I’m not a socialist. The political centre looks a long way left when you’re looking far from the right.

      • NickC
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

        Andy, That applies to you too. Political positions are in the eye of the beholder. An example being your evident hatred of 17.4 million “far right Tory pensioners”.

        • Jagman84
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

          The ‘far right pensioners’ probably espouse the same views they held in their 30’s and 40’s. The problem is that most of the leadership of the political parties have lurched to the left. They have become ‘extremists’ by standing still!

          • Anonymous
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

            That’s how I feel. My ideas haven’t changed that radically.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

      May and Hammond are “a real socialist government” not perhaps full blooded but clearly appalling, anti-business, big state socialists.

    • 37/6
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

      Quite the reverse of what actually happened, Roy.

  5. Oggy
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    If the Tories don’t deliver a PROPER Brexit the electorate will punish you at the next GE and Corbyn is what we’ll get.

    • ian wragg
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      and quite rightly too.

      • ian wragg
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

        Did I hear correctly, someone asked May at the conference if Chequers allowed us to have an FTA with the USA and she replied “Yes” if the EU negotiate one.
        So if we accept Chequers, we can only have trade agreements if the EU let us, brilliant.

        • Sir Joe Soap
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:46 am | Permalink

          Except the EU could negotiate to exclude non-EU goods from that agreement, which leaves us with the worst of all worlds.

        • Stred
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

          Mr Raab has been telling the party that Chequers means Brexit and we will be able to trade with the world and help developing countries, while aping EU law and tariffs. Well, he is a lawyer. He made a good attack on Corbeau for his support for terrorists who kill Israelis. Didn’t realise he was half Jewish. Perhaps he aims to survive in the Remainer camp until he can escape to a real Brexit.

        • Lombaro
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

          She’s a genius!

          • Chris
            Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

            Pure disaster. This from D Express tonight:
            The Prime Minister will make a dramatic new Irish backstop offer to Brussels, which will soften her approach to allowing a number of regulatory goods checks demanded by the European Union’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier……

            For her plan to work, she would need the EU to compromise and allow the entire UK, not just Northern Ireland, to remain INSIDE the bloc’s customs union, the source told Bloomberg…”

    • Andy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      And, ironically, if the Tories do deliver a ‘proper’ Brexit the electorate will punish you not just at the next election, but at every election for the next 30 years. Sophie’s choice.

      • NickC
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:09 am | Permalink

        Andy, Actually, 17.4 million far right Tory pensioners give the Tories a healthy majority provided they get the Leave they voted for.

      • mancunius
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

        Andy, obviously it’s difficult for you to assess the mood of the British electorate as you don’t live here.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

          I live in Buckinghamshire. Which is here. One of the good bits of Buckinghamshire which backed Remain too.

          • libertarian
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink


            You ought to keep database of all the things you post. You told us you were going to live in France . Make your mind up. Oh and what happened to all the evil pensioners in your nice part of Buckinghamshire ?

  6. Adam
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Socialist policies are often anti-social.

  7. HardyB
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    politics in UK is in a truly dreadful state and there’s no need for me to spell it out

    We need to bring back the basic values of decency honesty integrity. We have to get away from f— business and go whistle

    Very soon we’ll be on our own and whether we have Tory or Labour led government giving us capitalism or socialism matters little and will be ok if it is managed in a responsible intelligent way- we have the politicos but am afraid that quality is not there- unfortunately

  8. Nig l
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Your government is timid lacking courage or ideas. It is the Labour Party that is offering the alternatives and, if the Marr interviews are anything to go by, a relaxed chatty Corbyn versus a closed body language, nervous almost gulping Theresa May, also the leadership.

    • Iain Moore
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:43 am | Permalink

      Corby offering alternatives, doesn’t mean they are good alternatives.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 3, 2018 at 6:20 am | Permalink

        Corbyn is just promising the world to everyone, all paid for by his magic money tree and legalised thefts off businesses and some individuals (that would destroy investment, tax receipts and the economy). A blatant con trick pure and simple. It is surprising that so many do fall for it.

        But then T May and the Tories largely fail to even challenge it.

    • NickC
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:14 am | Permalink

      Nig 1, Every time Theresa May claims that Chequers means Leave (when the Chequers executive summary clearly contradicts her) she looks distinctly uncomfortable. It is eating away at her.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

      Gulping until the switch was pulled, then she sat motionless. Even robots have a battery backup.

    • Dud
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:50 am | Permalink

      How difficult must it be to negotiate something as complicated as brexit whilst providing a running commentary to an aggressive press. It’s like playing poker with your hand on the table. May is trying to do that and therefore catches all the flack. Corbin gets an easier time of it sitting behind the line of fire with a smug smile. Marr does not treat them in an even way and in this regard shows bias. I don’t like chequers which I think if persevered with will fail further weakening our apparent strength. The eu need to realise we are going come what may. They need a deal therefore. These people are bully’s and need to have the word no explained to them. They will not know what to do. Let’s get on with it.

  9. Dave Andrews
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:30 am | Permalink

    Socialism also traps people in poverty by investing in their disability. When people are paid to be sick and lose such payments should they get well, they are financially incentivised to stay sick. If they could get well, they won’t, as they are dependent on their illness.
    Help people who aren’t well – absolutely, but don’t equate that to higher benefits.

    • a-tracy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

      I know a man that was certified as severe ADHD so that all of the benefits rolled in for him as a child and the father didn’t have to work outside the home, they got a blue badge he was considered so incapable of self-control. When he got to 17 he was suddenly cured enough to learn how to drive and now has his own car, he finished his college course and immediately got a job and is totally and utterly capable to cope alone and his father had to go back to work too after ten years.

      • Iain Gill
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

        There are lots of perverse incentives to fake childhood illness. The numbers of middle class parents getting a private doc to diagnose dyslexia is massive, so that then the child is allowed longer in exams etc which is a big advantage over working class parents not pulling this trick.

        • a-tracy
          Posted October 2, 2018 at 11:57 am | Permalink

          I know two couples that did this to get in to free grammar schools with underperforming children, my child has dyslexia not discovered as a child she had no extra time in exams and got the highest grades through pure hard work and dedication to revision.

          • Iain Gill
            Posted October 4, 2018 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

            state rationing always leads to corruption and this is one of many examples

            schools, healthcare, planning and housing are full of examples like this in this country

            its about time politicians admitted how out of control its become

  10. Lifelogic
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    The UK must indeed say No to such a dreadful diet of policies.

    But this is not very easy for the voters as May and Hammond are essentially Tax borrow and waste socialist too. Not quite as bad as would be asset robbers Corbyn/Mc Donnall but just the same in their actions.

    We have the highest taxes for well over 40 years, Hammond has just increased them again and is set for more increases in his Autumn statement. Yet despite this we have generally appalling and deteriorating public services.

    Every £1 paid in Tax delivers only a small percentage back in real value for the public, certainly less than half. Much government expenditure does positive net harm. This on top of the damage done by taking the money of people and businesses who would almost certainly have spent or invested it far better. The state sector is paid with pensions about 50% more than the 80% in the private sector and is hugely inefficient at delivering any value at all.

    Get rid of Hammond and May and replace with people who actually believe in lower tax, a real Brexit, fewer regulations, efficiency in government, far smaller government, reliable cheap energy, no daft grand projects like HS2, no green crap subsidies, a sensible criminal justice system with real deterrents, no attacks on the gig economy, easy hire and fire, no gender pay gap drivel and enable the UK to compete in the world for a change.

    No change no chance. Just as with the appalling John Major she will bury the party again.

  11. Anonymous
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    A lot of people vote socialist out of spite and for revenge.

    – Those unable to afford housing despite working hard might

    – Those not running households yet but indoctrinated in our universities (of which Labour socialists ensured there were many) might too.

    For most socialist radicals it is about the revolution and waving of banners, the exciting journey and not the arrival.

    I don’t think the Tories can do much to attract the students but they could do a lot to attract the working poor.

    • Steve
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:54 pm | Permalink


      You forgot to include those who vote labour because they don’t know why, but do so anyway cos their mam and dad vote labour. Brainless electoral automatons unable to think for themselves, who’s only ambition that surpasses getting bladdered and brawling, is to go to Benidorm and do likewise there.

      These fools still haven’t realised Kinnock got a peerage and cushy number with
      the EU, followed by similar for his missus.

      Two Jags; “I’ll never accept a peerage, goes against my beliefs” Then allegedly blamed the missus for his U-turn.

      Blair; not short of a bob or two eh.

      Keep the red flag flying boys ! You will have by now got used to flying it while flat on your faces.

  12. Lifelogic
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Scrap HS2 – it’s a waste of £56bn, urges Andrea Leadsom amid rail review. I see.

    Indeed except it will be more like double that in the end, and they are grabbing assets of people without proper and prompt compensation which is an outrage and is damaging the economy further.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

      They still have no idea where the sleeper trains will go if hs2 ever goes live. The capacity into Euston they use now will disappear. There was talk of moving all the sleeper routes from both Euston and Paddington to the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo but South West trains have started using those platforms.

      You would think the basics of a plan would be in place.

  13. margaret
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    Some very broad statements there and not the generality you speak of in all cases, however the other side of the coin can also be as damaging. ‘ Moderation in all things’ until safe to branch out.

  14. Lifelogic
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    As Charles Moore puts it today:-

    May “ does not seem to understand that if you are steering the ship of state, the engine room is more important than the sick bay. The creation and widespread ownership of wealth is what makes all the rest of it (including the care of the sick) work: that is where the necessary energy comes from. At the risk of exhausting the metaphor, I would add that the captain, once he has ensured that the ship is well-provisioned and well-crewed, must put out to sea. Mrs May has been at the helm for more than two years, yet we are still in port.”

    Time to ditch this dithering, socialist, dopey, robotic, tedious, electoral liability and her Tax to death, grim reaper neighbour. Replace with real small government Conservatives please.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      Hammond saying that Johnson is a “big-picture” person. Which is precisely what the country needs, not a team of middle-ranking civil servants working like deck-hands through making sure the decks are scrubbed and polished while the ship is steering itself into an iceberg.

      • Lifelogic.
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

        Exactly, what is needed in a PM is a working compass and sensible big picture, visionary leadership. The complete opposite of May and Hammond is required.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink


      She is not even in the port that’s how far out of touch she is.

    • Stred
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

      Hammodi is a tax clerk.

    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    One last grain. Do not read those books in front of a new girlfriend you wish to think you are strong. You will cry like there is no tomorrow. Trust me.

  16. bigneil
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    Can you tell us the effect of waving in hundreds of thousands of foreign freeloaders every year, who haven’t come to work, only to get a free life on our taxes – and how much this has cost the UK taxpayer in the last year? Please include all their benefits, their housing, their kids schooling, their NHS treatment including translators, and the crime they have committed. I won’t hold my breath for an answer as these figures would NEVER be released.

    • ian wragg
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:50 am | Permalink

      The ERG group research finds East Europeans paid £300 million in taxes whilst accessing £4.5 billion in benefits.
      How is this paying our old age pensions?

      • Lifelogic.
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

        Indeed and that is benefits not roads, police, social services, schools, university cost, defence, the vast other costs of government ….

    • margaret howard
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:02 am | Permalink


      It always amazes me when people talk about the “huge’ numbers. For comparison, UK net migration rate in 2012 was 2.59 per 1000, in Spain it was 5.09 per 1000, Greece has 2.32, Netherlands – 2.33, Italy – 4.67.

      Immigrants who arrived since 2000 were 43% less likely than British people to receive state benefits or tax credits, and 7% less likely to live in social housing

      • Ian wragg
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:59 am | Permalink

        That means almost half accessed benefits and why should any of them live in social housing. We cannot access these in the rest of the EU.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

        Comparative percentages are an odd way of measuring the biggest increase in the population of this country in its history.
        Since 2000 several million more people over and above the natural increase in our population.
        A new city needs building every year to
        manage the several hundred thousand new arrivals that come here

        • Edward2
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

          cont….each year.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

        Or to put it another way…figures for 2016/17:

        UK 9.0 per 1000 with population of 65.382 million = 588,438 inwards
        Spain 8.9 per 1000 with population of 46.440 million = 413,316 inwards
        Greece 10.8 per 1000 with population of 10.783 million = 116,456 inwards
        Netherlands 11.1 per 1000 with population of 16.979 million = 188,466 inwards

        But, are these figure relevant in any case?

        May be better to relate to land area:
        UK 248,500 sq km = 263 people per sq km
        Spain 506,000 sq km = 91 people per sq km
        Greece 132,000 sq km = 81 people per sq km
        Netherlands 41,500 sq km = 409 people per sq km

        Cost to the country is not necessarily individual workers but the families and extended families that don’t work and come along as well…

        Some links to “official” figures:

        • David Price
          Posted October 2, 2018 at 11:51 am | Permalink

          Are the majority of immigrants settling in other parts of the UK outside England though?

          A population of 53m (supposedly) and area of 130,279 gives England a density of 406.8 people per sq km, much more than 263 and not far off the Netherlands.

          No wonder there are so many potholes and wait times for dental and health services have grown so much longer.

          • Know-Dice
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

            David, who knows !!!

            But let’s say best case 263 worst case 406.8

            Certainly the population of Scotland is pretty spread out, other than those living in the larger town and cities. That’s why Scotland gets such a good deal from Barnett.

            So, how much of the land area in England is available for housing? – too much judging by the houses springing up in every corner of Mr Redwood’s constituency…

      • NickC
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

        Margaret Howard, The average net immigration to the UK has been over 250,000 per year every year for the last 14 years (ONS). That’s probably an underestimate because the IPS figures are used rather than NINos. Think of it as about 16 new Newcastles since 2000. It’s not about the people, or even the economics, it’s about the numbers.

        What is the source for your claim that “Immigrants who arrived since 2000 were 43% less likely than British people to receive state benefits or tax credits …”? And do you mean people, or workers?

        • Anonymous
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

          Three Wembley stadia to see that number visually.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

        “30 Jul 2014 – Foreign nationals make up 17 per cent of Britain’s 2.45 million child tax credit claimants, figures from HMRC show”. Telegraph

        “24 Mar 2016 – European nationals are more likely to claim tax credits and child benefits than British born people”. Express – are you saying this newspaper is telling lies?

        A document circulated among ministers by the Department for Exiting the European Union, has recommended that around three million EU migrants in the UK when the Prime Minister triggers Article 50 keep their welfare rights.

        “11 Mar 2018 – EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4billion a year in benefits. Those from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax”. The Sun – is this a lie? this article goes on “Data from the Department for Work and Pensions, taxman and Treasury shows EU workers received more than £2.2billion in tax credits and housing benefits, £1.1billion in out-of-work payments and £700million in child benefit.

        There is a stark contrast between Western and Eastern Europeans.

        Nearly half the personal taxes paid by migrants from countries such as Romania, Bulgaria and Poland went straight back in tax credits and child benefit.

        DWP figures were not broken down by country.

        But if they followed a similar distribution, then almost all of the taxes went back in working-age benefit.”

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

        One more thing Margaret, personally for me I’m not at all bothered about working migration, I don’t support benefits like housing, tax credits and child tax credits especially for children not living in the UK until a period of time and paying national insurance over a calculated level to provide a contribution to UK taxes has occurred. I also believe we should bill back other EU nations for healthcare as they bill us until a period of time living and paying taxes in that Country have passed.

        I think that asylum seekers should be allowed to work to pay for their own keep and we need to shake the whole system up. If we have shortages in work areas and other areas with high pockets of unemployment we should provide accommodation (like student digs) to accommodate people to WORK no one should get a free ride including free riders like the socialist that ambushed JRM outside his home.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

          There is no reason why we can not do all the things you want while remaining in the EU. It is not the EU stopping us – it is Westminster incompetence.

          The NHS is perfectly entitled to claim back healthcare costs for EU citizens. But, you may have noticed, much of the NHS is not geared up to charge anyone for anything. This is not the EUs fault. An easy way to do it would be to require ID cards to access service. You’ll note former Brexit Secretary David Davis was among the most vocal critics of ID cards. Shame.

          There is also nothing, but incompetence, stopping the Tories reforming the rest of the benefits system.

          • NickC
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 10:54 am | Permalink

            Andy, The corruption in the EU has seeped into the body politic of the UK.

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

            EU negotiations in 2016 – “Mr Cameron’s negotiators were unable to remove the “tapering mechanism” which will see EU migrants start to receive benefits when they start to contribute to the system – probably after their first year of work.” reported by our newspapers in this instance The Telegraph

            Andy, I agree we are badly let down by our Governments, however, we should have been able to set up a system that asked for medical insurance from EU nationals (paid on automatic recharge to their nation like they especially Spain and France charge the UK, and not just agree to treat people with no chargeback because we don’t have a system that coped with it, all private hospital charges could then be charged back to the EU and not the patient as they do have the necessary charging systems and it wouldn’t have put problems on unexpected NHS maternity services, GPs should have been asked to bill the EU countries for their annual patient registration cost. There is no reason as you say that can’t happen now, GPs can send out bills and this is what the Government should be promising that we will claim back what we can right now and net off against what other Countries bill us.

            Instead of agreeing on a settlement DC was just told NO our way or no way.

            I have no problem with ID cards but I know lots of liberals that wouldn’t like people to have to carry them but it could have resolved the Windrush problem etc.

            EU migrant’s child is living abroad, then they should receive no child benefit, no matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter how much tax they have paid.” – Conservative Party Manifesto 2015…The text now says that indexation of child benefit should “only apply to new claims” when UK negotiators had wanted all EU migrant children receiving child benefit in their home countries to go onto the new rates immediately.

            Andy we are importing poverty, housing benefit bills, child tax credit and child benefits for children not even living here, if you don’t listen to people that don’t agree with this then I do. How can a British person with 2 or 3 children in a private rental because they keep being passed over for cheaper social rental by foreign families (seen regularly on Can’t Pay Take It Away, or Benefits Britain and other programs constantly, families who become homeless with children and rehomed by our State) more in need, afford to compete with a man here for a year or two whose home in Eastern Europe costs a tiny fraction to run, he can rent with many other people in a house share whilst he stacks up funds to take back to E.Europe to build a home and make a great life, this money constantly slurping out of the British bowl and not spent here in Britain doesn’t get topped up. If this was a none issue like you say then the EU wouldn’t have stopped our changes to the rules.

      • fedupsoutherner
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

        @Margaret Howard. And lets not forget how small the UK is in comparison. I don’t care how many immigrants other countries take in. I’m just interested in how many I’ve got to pay for.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

          Unless you are a higher rate taxpayer you don’t even pay enough to cover your own costs. And even if you are your contribution to immigrants is somewhere around zero.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

            Presumably your theory applies to the millions of new arrivals too andy.

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

            So a single person with no children earning £30,000 is making no contribution over and above their cost to the State, what tosh.

      • mancunius
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

        As Parliament states that no such reliable statistics are gathered for the receipt of benefits (see HoC report of 28 March 2017 “we are reliant on indirect, often ad hoc analysis”) we must ignore such misleading ‘figures’.

      • Jagman84
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

        “Immigrants who arrived since 2000 were 43% less likely than British people to receive state benefits or tax credits, and 7% less likely to live in social housing.”
        Yet another whopper from University College London. The self-styled, “London’s Global University”, so no hint of bias there, obviously….

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

        @margaret you miss the point. They should be 100% less likely. If they come they should support themselves otherwise we are importing a poorer life for all.

        The strawman about how much our own people claim has no place in this argument. Although it has its own special place in a different discussion.

        • mancunius
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

          Exactly. Try applying for migratory residence anywhere in the world and telling them you’re ‘almost half as likely to need support from the taxpayer’ and see whether they let you in.

        • Lifelogic.
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

          Indeed but most immigrants do tend to be of working age and you are compairing them with the UK population of all ages. We should take high quality immigration but not net liability immigration as now.

        • a-tracy
          Posted October 2, 2018 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

          Exactly, the poor are getting poorer because we’re taking in so many poor people and their families full stop, then the benefits have to get shared to a wider group, if it truly were full taxpaying working immigrants enriching our nation no-one in the EU would have kicked off when David Cameron suggested a way to placate the British taxpayers would be to restrict benefits, it was quite a minor concession he asked for. If it were not a big issue as margaret howard said above then the EU shot itself in the foot at that point.

  17. Richard1
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Dead right, socialism is always and everywhere a disaster. I can recommend listening to President Trump’s address to the UK General assembly, which has been scandalously mis-reported by the BBC. I do not think he was “laughed at” I think he made an in character and remark and then a light hearted response which got a laugh. His message was clear and robust and very sensible. Amongst the things he said was the solution to migration crises is to make the countries from which people are fleeing “great again”. He gave the example of Venezuela where 2m people have fled the appalling socialist regime for which Messrs Corbyn and McDonnell have had such strong words of praise over many years. If Labour get in that’s the way the UK will go – a country from which he people wish to flee. etc ed

    • Richard1
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:38 am | Permalink


    • Richard1
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:35 am | Permalink

      I’ve failed the edit – i suggested that there is one…category…of UK citizens who might be at the front of the queue to flee a Corbynite Labour regime.

    • Chris
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

      Well said, Richard. I posted about President Trump yesterday about his extremely successful rally in West Virginia on Saturday, and included some of P Trump’s most significant comments about sovereignty and other fundamental issues. His comments were very relevant to our current position fighting for Brexit. However, my comment has not been posted. Very sad as our media are not reporting P Trump accurately and the truth needs to come through.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

      Trump’s statement was stupid and was certainly laughed at. Ans also as he said he was not expecting that reaction proves he is very stupid – it was obvious.

      • mancunius
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

        It was a boorish and premature reaction, as Trump was making a general statement which he then immediately backed up with facts and arguments – had they but waited and listened. Laughing at the preamble of his speech betrayed personal and political prejudice, and a general lack of manners.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

      “scandalously mis-reported by the BBC”

      Such is the BBC.

  18. Ian wragg
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    I see Hunt accuses the EU as behaving like the Soviet Union. Hardly surprising seeing how it’s modelled on the USSR and staffed by ex commies.

    • Chris
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:24 am | Permalink

      Exactly, with a Marxist agenda.

    • Steve
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

      Ian wragg

      “I see Hunt accuses the EU as behaving like the Soviet Union..”

      Quite a few of them are rumoured to have said similar just lately. I wonder if they’re finally waking up ?

      ” and staffed by ex commies.”

      Why else do you think they’re hell bent on pulling in the ex-soviet regionals.

      Of course there’s an ultimate agenda.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

      Indeed, exactly the same not yet quite as evil, but well on the way.

  19. Kenneth
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    “The UK must say No to such a dreadful diet of policies”

    How can we?

    All political parties that have any chance of forming a government are offering socialism.

    The current Remain regime is taking nearly 50% of our money in tax.

    • Andy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      1) It isn’t a Remain regime. It’s a Brexit regime – which you can see from the fact that it is clueless, nasty and inept.
      2) It isn’t taking nearly 50% of your money in tax – even if you are an additional rate taxpayer – which, as you’re whining about tax, you aren’t.
      3) By far the biggest part of our tax goes on the elderly – pensions, social care, NHS treatment for the old, pensioner perks. None of you who claim to care about how much tax we pay has any credibility unless you are prepared to slash the taxpayer handouts people get just for being old.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

        You are wrong about what taxes are spent on andy

        And remember pensions are paid from nation insurance contributions which we pay each working week.

      • NickC
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

        1) It is a Remain regime – most Ministers are Remain; the HoC is mainly Remain; the senior civil service is predominantly Remain; the MSM is mainly Remain; the Chequers plan is Remain (just read the executive summary). The test is quite simple: after March 2019 will we be still controlled by the EU in many policy areas – the answer is ‘yes’, as things stand. That’s Remain.
        2) The state accounts for about 41% of GDP (Investors Chronicle).
        3) Almost every old person has contributed to the tax system throughout their working lives. Plus many pensioners pay taxes anyway, including income tax. And all that has paid for previous pensioners. Just as future young and middle aged people will pay for your pensions and care.
        4) Why do you think the UK cannot be independent of the EU?

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

          The UK is independent. And we can be completely detached from the EU if you like. We just can’t be completely detached and richer than we are inside.

          And, yes, today’s pensioners have paid taxes to cover their pensions. They paid taxes to cover an expected retirement of 5-10 years. Most now live 10-20 years beyond retirement. We fund your shortfall.

          • NickC
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 11:03 am | Permalink

            Andy, No; we just voted to be independent of the EU precisely because we are not currently independent. There are many tests to confirm that – one is: can the UK make a trade deal with the USA? Currently the answer is an emphatic No.

            As for pensioners, we use a system of government that pays pensioners (and roads, rail, NHS, schools, etc, etc) out of current income. You provide no rationale for picking on one category. If you don’t like that system, campaign to change it.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

            Wrong again andy
            National insurance rates have risen over the decades to allow for more people and those people living longer.

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

            Andy, British pensioners were told they only needed to pay in for 39 years, most of the men paid in for 49 years. It is not the publics fault in the Labour government sold a ponzi scheme and still claims credit for it.

            My generation, many of whom didn’t go to University and started work at 16 will be paying in for 52 years.

      • L Jones
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

        Andy – I wonder if you’ve ever considered that you’ll be ”old” yourself one day.
        Perhaps you are wealthy, or well-cushioned by the Bank of Mum and Dad.
        Therefore: ”I care not for your predicament, Jack – pull the ladder up, I am suitably provided for” might be your mantra?

        Why do you so hate those older people who have actually worked (yes, ”work” – recognise the word?) for more comfort in their old age, and yet are STILL paying taxes on their savings? So it’s not just YOUR tax, sunshine, if indeed you pay any.

        I asked before – would YOU be willing to walk into that voluntary euthanasia chamber when you reach 50? It seems that’s where you’d like to consign ”pensioners”.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

          I am saving sufficiently for my retirement – basing it on the assumption that I will receive zero from the state. Most of today’s pensioners take more out than they ever paid in. That is not their fault. What is their fault is their attitude to everyone else. Rather than accepting and understanding that they are mostly a drain on the state, they instead blame everyone and everything else. Foreign aid, immigrants, the EU – everyone else is spending ‘your’ money. Erm, no. YOU are spending OUR money. At least be grateful.

          • NickC
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 11:14 am | Permalink

            Andy, As ever, you think your opinion is fact. Fortunately the rest of us on here tend to argue the other way round: from facts to opinions. You have no idea of the value contributed by pensioners – for example, as carers, volunteers, even in employment (over 10%), and through spending the private pensions they have.

            Young people are also a “drain” on the state. Civilisation is in part measured by our willingness to support our own. That does not mean we have an obligation to squander the UK’s money on propping up dictatorships through foreign aid (see Moyo: Dead Aid).

          • Edward2
            Posted October 3, 2018 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

            Most pensioners are not a drain on the state.
            Most have worked created wealth and paid taxes for decades.
            Many have private pensions which they have paid for and still are working or still run businesses.
            And many pay tax in their old age.

            Like most of those who discriminate against one or more sections of society the facts are against you andy

      • Woody
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

        I don’t think even the most raging remoaner could really argue that May and Hammond and their civil service advisors are in any way leave lovers. When it comes to nasty then that is definitely a remoaner trait, and the clueless and ineptness is the sign of a natural set of remainers being required to pretend they want to follow the democratic wishes of the people.

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        Taxpayer reimbursement for years of contributions (in many cases)

        Fixed it for you Andy

  20. fedupsoutherner
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Just the thought of another round of socialism gives me a fright. How about telling many of the feckless to get out and earn their own money? Those with children already rake in more in benefits than many that work full time. Nothing has been done to address this. There are many things the feckless could be made to do to help society for their free hand outs. Continuous years of sitting on one’s bum should not be allowed. Unless Mrs May comes out with some truly inspiring policies the Tory party is toast. We don’t want to see more tax put onto people who are working for a living. We also want to see a credible Brexit plan and not the pie in the sky Chequers agreement with more concession on our part.

    • Andy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:59 am | Permalink

      I have children and get precisely nothing from the state. We earn to much to get child benefit. We send them to private school. You are almost certainly more of a drain on the state than me and my family will ever be.

      • Richard1
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

        You get nothing from the state? You do not have an NHS doctor? You don’t use public highways? You wouldn’t think of calling the emergency services if you needed them? You do not feel that the UK’S military provides you and your family with peace and security? etc

      • fedupsoutherner
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

        Andy, you get more paranoid by the hour. I wasn’t talking about people working with children. I was talking about those that never work and never intend to. If you actually read my post you would see I said I don’t want those working to keep paying more tax. Really, keep up with play. My son also went to private school. You are not the only one who can afford such things. As you earn so much perhaps you might think about not claiming your old age pension or using the NHS when you get older. As my husband who is over 70 is still working and paying tax we still use it. We have paid into the system for many years – more than you have.

      • fedupsoutherner
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

        Andy, if you have children then you must have claimed child benefit at one time in their lives.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

          I do not qualify for child benefit. The Tories took it away from high earners – and both me and my wife earn above the threshold to claim any.

          It is good your husband still works. Why don’t you? Why should I subsidise you? You should pay your own way.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

        You get lots from the state for your taxes.
        Apart from the pleasure of knowing you contribute towards others less well off than yourself have you not considered all the other things your taxes pay for?
        roads rail airports police fire service coastguard ambulances army navy airforce customs officers courts prisons parks museums
        This list goes on and on.

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

          Yes – of course I have used those things. My comment was clumsy. I benefit from all those things – as do you. My point was that I don’t claim any benefits, my children are not subsidised by any of you at all. In contrast many of you are subsidised by me.

          Incidentally even though I probably pay more tax than any of you, I am happy to pay more. Our NHS needs more money and I am happy to pay more. I am also prepared to subsidise your pensions – I just want you all to be a bit more grateful about it.

          Reply Todays pensioners paid lots of tax to pay for the free education provided to your generation. There are lots of tranfers between generations instate spend and tax, which we agree through demicratic process as one nation

      • libertarian
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:08 pm | Permalink


        You’ve never used the NHS then? Or had your bins emptied? Or driven on a road ?

        • margaret howard
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

          We pay an (exorbitant) council tax to have our bins emptied and car tax to drive on the road.

      • Steve
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:05 pm | Permalink


        Exactly. I’d go further and send them a strong message – Stitch us if you dare !

      • Steve
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:08 pm | Permalink


        I think you’d be much happier living the other side of the Channel.

        Oh but you did say you’d recently bought a property in France, so what’s stopping you ?

        • Andy
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

          My children go to school here. My business is here. I will leave when I retire – if I can still go.

  21. Paul Cohen
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Well, Ken Clarke was right for once when he described Mrs May as that “bloody difficult woman”. She repeats over and over again her message in a tedious and robotic way in no way contributing to any discussion. Lets keep our hope of a new face in Dominic Raab.

    • Chris
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:26 am | Permalink

      P C, I do not see any hope with D R. D Raab is apparently weak, and also, as he supports May’s Brexit, is not prepared to uphold democracy and effect Brexit. The Chequers Plan, which he supports, is not Brexit. It represents a disgraceful betrayal of Leave voters.

      • mancunius
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

        And yet another example of a Tory politician who claimed to support Leave supporting a policy of chaining the UK permanently to the overlordship of the EU, for the sake of – what? a car? a driver? school fees?

        • Chris
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

          They seem to be without shame, among other things, mancunius.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

      “tedious and robotic” indeed like a dim primary shool teacher adressing some dim six year olds. Slowly stating the blindingly obvious (and undesputed), yet saying nothing of real substance at all.

  22. Norman
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    A timely warning, John. I hope this simple analysis gets into the MSM. I saw this first-hand in Romania in early 1989 before Communism fell, and it is truly shocking – plus of course the State repression of dissent, and the appalling neglect of orphans. Such regimes are truly evil.
    Recently, I watched a video of President Trump’s address to the UN. He spoke brilliantly for 35 minutes, without any hint of a script. The US economy is booming, and America is boldly addressing many international issues head-on. Germany was among the nations confronted, over their almost total reliance on Russian energy, whilst expecting America to defend them against potential aggression from the East. The scornful reaction on the faces of the German delegation was interesting! The issue of Iran’s destabilizing aggression was also firmly addressed (as it was, in President Netanyahu’s speech). I am ashamed of our Government’s apparent willingness to go along with the EU on their policy of appeasement towards Iran.
    I looked for reports of President’s Trump’s speech in the MSM, and was shocked to see not only that it appeared to be absent, but the depths of derision it was met with. This situation is ominous, and indicates that an oppressive ‘cultural socialism’ is already entrenched in Europe and the UK.

  23. Bob
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    I can’t disagree with this article except that it doesn’t explain why the Tory govt are dancing to the Labour’s tune with their tax and spend policies; you recently highlighted the effect of such policies on the car industry.

    If the Tories want a conservative manifesto then I suggest you start by having a look at ukip’s policies which include an increase of the personal allowance to £13k p.a. and the abolition of:
    – Foreign Aid
    – Inheritance Tax
    – Stamp Duty
    – BBC Licence Tax
    – Tuition Fees on STEM subjects

    Instead of the above, the Tories .want govt to micro manage the way restaurants distribute their tips to waiters.

    • ian wragg
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      That’s because what you have listed cannot be reduced because May has signed up to a non regression clause in the Withdrawal Treaty.
      They didn’t include tips so they can include it in their manifesto.

      • Chris
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:28 am | Permalink

        The Withdrawal Treaty needs to be completely rewritten and quickly.

        • Jagman84
          Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

          Nothing is agreed ’til everything is agreed. Nothing is “signed up to”, at present. The EU have missed the boat with their intransigence.

      • Martin
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

        There seems to be no limits to May’s treachery. Every day more unbelievably rotten dealings appear out of the woodwork that you hadn’t heard of previously. One thing is certain. If she prevails the UK will be considerably worse off than it was before her BINO. Yet there is simply no prospect of her removal, presumably because May and Cameron have succeeded in ousting enough real conservatives from the party in order to keep the far left at the helm in perpetuity. Or at least until the rightly disgusted party faithful finally give up altogether on a bad job.

    • Beecee
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

      All the people I know tip the server in cash and do not add it to the bill.

      Anyway restaurants will get round such a law by adding it either as a charge to the bill or, more likely, inflating the food price with a ‘no tips’ rule!

      As usual, No. 10 does not think its initiatives through!

  24. Bryan Harris
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    JR – I agree – The Tories can do much better than labour – So why aren’t they…. All we get is socialist policies that mean more tax and more hardship – Time to awaken the true Tory before your party becomes a second labour party

  25. JoolsB
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Labour have moved so far to the left, they have gone past socialism and are bordering on communism and their place has been filled by the party calling themselves Conservative but who are mainly socialists at heart. The tax take is now the highest in 40 years and this from a ‘conservative’ Government and yet Hammond is pledging to put taxes up further in England to pay for an un-reformed NHS.

    What a choice for the electorate – Marxism or Socialism.

    • Mitchel
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:52 am | Permalink

      Marx and Engels used the terms socialism and communism interchangably.It was Lenin,I believe,who introduced a distinction – with socialism being the transitional period between the proletariat seizing control and communism being achieved.

      Full franchise democracy probably results in socialism because politicians can’t resist the temptation to buy votes.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      Didn’t Hammond say that ‘we will continue to be a low tax party’?

  26. A.Sedgwick
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    When we have May and Hammond in charge then expect Corbyn. Hammond slagging off Boris is another example of his ineptitude and pots and kettles come to mind.

  27. Iain Moore
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    Thank you, this now needs to be shouted from the roof tops, put on social media, and Conservative politicians who get on the mainstream media primed with all the facts and figures so they can put down Corbyn’s Labour when they promote this Socialist fantasy world.

    • Gordon Nottingham
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

      This article should required reading for every UK citizen, can we not do a David Cameron and spend our tax monies like he did on Brexit and send it post haste to every household, before its to late to stop Labour from ruining everything we hold dear?

  28. BCL
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    I cannot be the only one who sees the terrifying spectre of Michael Foot in Jeremy Corbyn.
    I know there are many young voters who don’t remember the 1960’s and 1970’s, before Mrs T put us back on a sensible prosperous path, but the idea we might be about to repeat those mistakes is depressing and frightening.

    • mancunius
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      One of the biggest mistakes of the 1960s and 1970s was putting Heath in charge. The Three-Day Week punished the whole country for the PM’s failure to prepare for the inevitable industrial action that was bound to follow his attempts to reform industrial relations.
      Mrs Thatcher did not make that mistake, and her success there and in freeing the economy he had wanted to run on German state corporatist lines only intensified Heath’s bitterness towards her.

  29. Christine
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    I do not agree with Labour’s policies but at least they have some. I’m at a loss to know what the Conservative policies are. You have May and Hammond who propose policies that damage our productivity and just seem to involve increasing taxes. If your party don’t get rid of these two I fear that Labour will get into power. They are staid, old fashioned and have no vision. How much more evidence do you need about the damage these two are doing before you take action?

  30. mickc
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    But the current form of capitalism said “let’s print money to save the banks…”
    So there can be no problem with “let’s print money for those purposes the people want ”
    That’s really all Corbyn has to say. And there is no good answer as things stand. Certainly the current Blairite Tories have none.

  31. The Prangwizard
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    With a leader like May, you are living in a fantasy to hope she thinks like that. She is in effect a facilitator for the acceptance of socialist views. I do not believe she is a conservative. She must be removed but sadly Mr Redwood is unlikely to help that along judging by what he has said in the past. I have many fears about her character and etc ed.

    Why can so few Tories be persuaded she is a danger and how life could be restored with her and the smug Hammond at least gone? Just how far does loyalty stretch?

    • Chris
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:39 am | Permalink

      Pranwizard, in reply to your last sentences, I think it is because they want to hold onto power, and they have this misguided idea that Theresa May will enable them to do that, or another Remainer. The Brexiteers are simply not prepared to fight to put in a Brexiteer leader. They are scared by the “who wields the knife” issue, I suspect.

      I am afraid things have got so bad that we are way beyond considering the plight of individuals who may challenge Theresa May. The challenge has to be made immediately with no more excuses or ploy to save key individuals.

      The removal process would be brutal (if Hammond, Alan Duncan and others are anything to go by) and the result cannot be certain to produce a Brexiteer leader now. That is only because Tory Brexiter MPs have dithered and dithered, being too scared to take the plunge. They will now pay the price for that, both electorally and also re the fate of the “Conservative Party” and it may not be pretty.

    • Bob
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

      Problem is there aren’t many conservatives in the Tory Party and virtually none in the cabinet, so it’s a forlorn hope that they could produce a conservative PM or Chancellor.

  32. Geoff not Hoon
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    I wonder if in my lifetime a distinguished author will explain in detail how we ever got into the mess we know as the EU. I know there are already many books about the workings of the EU but my point is who, what, when made what now look like some very fatal decisions that are causing so much trouble to escape from as Mr. Hunt so nicely puts it.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

      Heath, Wilson, Thatcher (to really quite a large degree), Major, Bliar, Brown & Cameron (& Clegg) are all to blame for the hole they have dug the UK into (all without any authority of the voters. Other than Wilson perhaps but even that was for a “Common Market” and not a EU superstate.

  33. Iain Gill
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Not to mention that both Stalin and Mao each killed millions more than Hitler.

    It is only competition and freedom to choose which keeps things optimising and efficient.

    Mandarins rationing always leads to corruption.

    As ever Jordan Peterson is worth watching on this topic

  34. margaret howard
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    I thought JR was writing a personal blog, not a party political broadcast.

    (Still, I suppose this being conservative conference week, needs must.)

    • Richard1
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

      Do you have an actual refutation of his argument?

    • Lombaro
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

      Collect your refund on the way out if you’re not happy.

    • mancunius
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

      It’s of personal interest to me: I need to plan my move abroad when Corbyn becomes PM, as he now inevitably will when the sickened and betrayed Tory voters stay at home.
      But it’s not a personal problem for anyone whose income grows on trees.

  35. Andrew S
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Theresa May remainer blew it at the last general election. So she will the next if leader. I recommend Tory MPs to dump her now and take P. Hammond with her. With a strong leave
    leadership team in place, everything in the vision can be achieved. Otherwise, back to candidates who do stand up for independent Britain.

    • Andy
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:02 am | Permalink

      There’s a vision? Did you miss the last two and a bit years of the Brexiteers, literally, having no clue?

      • NickC
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

        Andy, Since when were Theresa May and Philip Hammond Brexiteers? Can you point to them saying so?

      • Jagman84
        Posted October 1, 2018 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

        Maybe their parents sent them to Private school?

  36. Mick
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Off topic
    Just been listening to the bile being spewed out by your colleagues sourbry and greening about a people’s vote, it’s not a people’s vote but another referendum vote to try and overturn the 2016 referendum vote, I’m not bothered if we leave with no deal we will survive hopefully with the likes of sourbry and greening and others not anywhere near Westminster, and do these muppets honestly think for one minute that should they get there rig vote in there favour of remain that the leavers and patriots to Great Britain would let that happen Not on you Nelly we wouldn’t, the seeds of a civil war will have been sowed , think on muppets you are few in Parliament but we are the boss and we’ve made our choice and that was to leave and if you cannot except that then hand your notice in and go live in your beloved Europe bye bye you’ll not be missed

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

      Agree Mick. They were talking about MP’s discussing leaving or staying in the EU today. There should be no discussion. We’ve had all that. The people were given a choice, told about all the ‘bad’ things that would happen and we voted to leave. End of!! Just implement it now.

  37. Man of Kent
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    ‘ We can offer a much better alternative ‘

    Yes I am sure you can , John , but it is not being offered by your/our socialist leader

    Only yesterday it was reported that she wants to put an extra 3% stamp duty on house purchases for some foreign buyers . This money to be spent on homeless rough sleepers .

    Any extra stamp duty on top of the existing penal rates will merely depress the housing market further , so less activity , less wealth ,less tax revenue , less social money .

    The tone coming out of the Tory Conference so far is pretty socialist eg Brandon Lewis comments -‘ we want to be the party of the working man ‘ – positions you/us as the new labour party .

    Very depressing and we must expect more of the same today from the PM .

    • mancunius
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

      Quite – any extra stamp duty for foreign buyers should be offset by SDT cuts for UK purchasers – if they also pay income tax in the UK.
      Rough sleepers indeed: as if that problem is solved by Philip Hammond bestrewing them with other people’s money. (And what direct proof will there be that he has? None!)

  38. forthurst
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    The Tories have only themselves to blame if Corbyn replaces May in No 10. I’m not a believer in the panacea of socialism but nor do I regard business operators as saints; the only thing that keeps businesses on the straight and narrow is competition: some of the privatised businesses were natural monopolies ie there is only one water table and through a series of holding companies the natural water assets of my locale disappears into a private company in Jersey, so not much in it for the Exchequer.

    The Tory Party have been doctrinaire and cowardly and incompetent in equal measure because they are unpatriotic and third rate and only get elected because the FPTP system gives various strains of authoritarian rule as the only alternative.

    • Jasg
      Posted October 2, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

      I notice the Royal Mail are making massive losses after being privatized as a profit-making concern. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!

  39. ian
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Everybody seems to know something about socialism but nobody knows anything about capitalism, maybe that because people that are doing well and people at the top find that socialism better for them with their bent accounts, lawyers and politicians, what gel and the labour party are talking about MARXISM to which they would not care for because new people rising to the top with more taxes and replacing them so they will consider moving out of the country.

    Capitalism, can you tell the people about it john because they have never known it before, it has never been fully implemented.

    What you have is a socialist capitalism to suit people at the top and MPs.

  40. pinch or punch
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Was going to go to the Leave means Leave thing when it trundles into town.
    Those placards though !!
    I would feel like an extra in Freefall ( Prisoner episode )

    • pinch or punch
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

      Free for all even . Freudian slip

  41. Denis Cooper
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Off topic:

    This morning a TV journalist asked Philip Hammond whether he agreed with the Centre for European Reform that Brexit was already costing us £500 million a week.

    Any half-decent Chancellor with a shred of integrity would have dismissed that study out of hand, pointing out that all economic models were more or less unreliable – look at how badly wrong his predecessor had got it with his doomladen predictions just before the EU referendum – and that must be especially true where the aim is to try work out where the UK economy would be now by treating the UK as a synthetic composite of Canada, Japan, Hungary and the US, plus a few other countries:

    But, no, he did nothing of the kind, instead he said he had no figure but there were other studies from the Bank and the OBR, with the unspoken implication that they also proved that the vote to leave the EU had slowed the growth of the UK economy; when the plain truth is that the most recent peak in the UK growth rate was in late 2014, at over 3%, and since then it has trended down both before and after the 2016 referendum:

    and there is no objective evidence that the referendum has had any significant effect.

  42. Mark B
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Well thanks for deleting my post. No links. On topic. Nothing that history cannot disagree with. Yes I mentioned a former Labour MP, now deceased, but you could of edited that out. After all you have allowed people to call the PM and others liars and that in my opinion, unless you agree with them, is far worse.

  43. Chris Dark
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Many speak as if the only choices we have to vote for are Labour and Conservative. Since neither of them will deliver a true Brexit, then don’t vote for either of them. Even a true Brexit Tory leader isn’t guaranteed to achieve it because the rebels plus Labour will vote it all down. Only UKIP is supporting Brexit one hundred per cent but people won’t give their vote, continuing to believe that they can vote the same old way (red or blue) and get different results. The whole two-party system we now have is not fit for purpose and needs to be destroyed. There are huge swathes of people who now feel unrepresented; we need more MPs who truly support Britain’s future as an independent nation and quite honestly there are no more to be found in either Labour or Tory.

    • Bob
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

      @Chris Dark

      “The whole two-party system we now have is not fit for purpose”

      It’s driven by fear of the other side. It’s only voters in marginal constituencies who actually matter to politicians, the rest are just voting fodder. I live in hope of a Trump style breakthrough by ukip to unsettle the careerists in Westminster and drain the swamp.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 1, 2018 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

      Well said Chris Dark. Why do we keep voting for the same mess that both parties have created themselves?

  44. MickN
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    O/T but only slightly.
    I am a bit concerned that when talking of the Chequers debacle, spokepersons including the PM say that we will no longer be sending “vast” amounts of money to the EU. Why are they not saying that we will no longer send ANY money to the EU? Would they consider the odd couple of billion here and there to be not a “vast” amount? Sounds like more weasel words to me.

  45. BretW
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    I am sure the EU side in Brussels is looking on at all of this with dismay.. yesterday we had Jeremy hunt sending out warnings to Europe and now this morning Dominic Raab doing the same, warnings and threats. Lets get one thing straight chequers is not going to be accepted by eu negotiaters because it smacks too much of cherry picking and by its very nature will undermine the single market and eu customs union..all of this is according to how the eu27 see we are going nowhere, and threats from our side are not going to resolve the matter. Better we get used to being without a deal come march 29 next and plan for that. We voted to leave and that is all

  46. mancunius
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    An excellent summary, John. In it Mrs May and Mr Hammond should recognize much of their own thinking, and not in a good way.

    By the way, I note that Mr Hammond responded to suggestions that he was against Brexit and in favour of staying in the EU by saying that ‘Brexit is going to happen’. He left unspoken his further reassurance ‘…But I’m going to make sure it’s a bl00dy disaster’.

  47. ian
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Most people who have money and good jobs these days prefer socialism that why they want to stay in the EU, the EU is the embodiment of socialism that why they want to stay with the EU at all costs, one might say whatever it takes and that is what you are seeing from most MPs in parliament, it a statement of their believes of what socialism means to them and elite of keeping their jobs in this world and only going one way up for them and their families in terms of position and wealth, you will hardly ever see them going down, that’s what they love about socialism so much, it does not matter how badly they mess up most will be kicked up to higher job with more money or always be brought back into the fold of a elite position later on.
    I call it socialism for the few not the many, the politicians talk about socialism for the many all the time in all parties but in reality, it boils down to food banks, housing problems, school problems and health care problems and so on, and for a country like England with its MPs that have been promoting socialism for as long as the liberals first entered parliament and most king and queens before them and yet today the country is going backwards as far as socialism for the many, why is that in time of printing loads of money, maybe its because the money only goes one way, up not down, the gov budget for socialism never go up these days they either get cut them or they stay the same.

    The people doing well are terrifyed of capitalism and what it means for them, no more bailing out for the banks, stock market, housing market, companies, high pay rises for themselves from people like themselves who recommend it, opportunity galore for themselves and families, no more lobbying gov to get their way over other people and companies and if you mess up you are on your own, not all your mates gather round to help out as with socialism, you have to prove yourselves and make it back on your own like people at the bottom but if have earned and saved you might take early retirement or start a new business.

  48. ian
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    The way parliament and MPs with academe experts have it work out as socialism at the top and capitalism at the bottom, the best place to see capitalism at work is on the country black market for jobs or selling drugs and stolen goods, capitalism is all about selling yourself for money and once you have obtained the money buying what you want with it, government and taxes does not come into it, government and tax is down to the person who is buying you not you, that capitalism, you only pay tax if you work for yourself and are not employed by anyone else by way of a business or company, what a business or company tell you what your gross is in pay is what you should take home anything else is socialism, that what PAYE is, socialism, take it from them before they get it, now I hear you might get MARXISM, they take 60 pounds off the company for your shares they say you have and give 10 pounds out of that for your hard work to keep you on side, that over 80% tax on your shares, while everybody else is paying 10% to 30% tax and another thing, is you cannot sell them because they really belong to the gov not you.

  49. Derek Henry
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    John Still thinks we are on the gold standard and the government finances are like a household budget.

    Somebody better explain to John Trump has slashed taxes and spent $5 trillion this fiscal year breaking all US government spending records with growth rates 4%.

    Even the Romans knew they had to spend the coins first before they could ever be collected as taxes. Taxes control inflation and fund nothing.

    1. There is a fundamental difference between the currency-issuer and the currency-user, such that the former has no intrinsic financial constraints on its spending. Such a government can always meet any liabilities that are denominated in the currency it issues.

    This also means that such a government can purchase anything that is for sale in the currency it issues, including all idle labour.

    Which means that the government chooses the unemployment rate. An elevated unemployment rate is always a political decision rather than anything that is forced on a nation by ‘market forces’ or the choice of individuals/households.

    2. The governments ability to spend is prior to any revenue it might receive in the form of taxation. Taxation revenue comes from funds that the government has already spent into existence.

    3. Central banks are monopoly creators of ‘central bank money’, while commercial banks create ‘bank money’ out of thin air – through “balance sheet extension”.

    Central banks set the interest rate but cannot control the broad money supply or the volume of ‘central bank money’ in circulation.

    This is because the central bank has no choice but to ensure there are enough bank reserves available given its charter is to maintain financial stability.

    If cheques start bouncing because of a shortage of reserves then financial panic would follow.

    This also means that the mainstream economics idea of ‘crowding out’, which posits that government borrowing absorbs scarce funds that would otherwise be available for private firms, is erroneous. Commercial banks will make loans to any credit-worthy borrower on demand. There is no scarcity of credit (loanable funds).

    4. The National Accounts tell us that a government deficit (surplus) is exactly equal to the non-government surplus (deficit).

    The non-government sector is comprised of the external and private domestic sectors. If the external sector is in deficit and the private domestic sector desires to save overall, then the government sector has to be in deficit and national income changes will ensure that occurs.

    Which means that fiscal surpluses squeeze non-government wealth.

    Further, the mainstream concept that fiscal surpluses represent ‘national saving’ is erroneous. A currency-user, such as a household saves (foregoes current consumption) in order to enjoy higher future consumption possibilities (via interest income on the saving).

    A currency-issuing government never has to store up money in order to spend in the future. They can always purchase whatever is for sale in that currency at any time they choose.

    5. The aim of fiscal policy is not to deliver a particular fiscal outcome (surplus or deficit). Rather, it is to ensure that the discretionary government policy position is sufficient to ensure full employment and price stability, given the spending and saving decisions of the non-government sector.

    If from a particular level of national income, the private domestic sector, for example, desires to save more overall and cuts its spending accordingly, then unless there is more net export spending coming in, the government will have to increase its deficit to avoid rising unemployment and a recession.

    There is no particular significance in any fiscal outcome. Context is everything.

    • NickC
      Posted October 2, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

      Derek Henry, Government finances are like a household budget. It is because our governments, particularly socialist ones, think they are not that we have arrived at the financial mess we are in (£2trn+ state debt). They think that they can do anything with the fiat currency and that there will be no consequences. They, and you, are wrong.

      If you were correct than the government would never “have to increase its deficit to avoid rising unemployment and a recession” (your claim) because it could always create more money to cover the (impending) deficit (also your claim).

      Moreover your tired old view that “commercial banks [persistently] create ‘bank money’ out of thin air” is false. In a stable economy commercial banks do indeed create money via FRB. But what you miss out is all that money is repaid (UK has only about 1% bad debts). So the same money is simply being churned, not created, and bank loan books do not change significantly. The only time they do is when there is either boom or bust. And that corrects over time as it must (otherwise stability has not returned).

  50. DUNCAN
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    The Evil of socialism

    ‘Some socialists start with the best of intentions.’ No they don’t. All socialists start with the most evil of intentions. They believe the power of politics should be used to politicise, enslave and control human beings

    Stop giving credence to this utterly vile political philosophy

  51. Steve
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Socialism – the politics of envy.

  52. Den
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    I would recommend those contemplating voting for a Socialist Government in this Country to first compare the standards of living in North Korea with that of South Korea.
    South Korea promotes a capitalist system where individuals are rewarded for their efforts whereas in the North the State controls all and denies most all freedoms. And further back in time, to review the reasons why the mighty USSR collapsed. However re NK, The Leader, Kim Jung Un, appears to have realised the failings of his Father and Grandfather in pursuing the Corbyn favoured Marxist style of Government, to the detriment of the people. Kim is now seeking to change that for he has the sense to understand where the domination of the State has restricted the well being of His people. I think we should commend him for that approach.

    However, despite the damning FACTS clearly`laid out by John, above, there remain, in this country, those that would follow the same path to socialism already failed or abandoned in the past.
    I can guess that a planned indoctrination, within their education has set their minds on this path and cannot be changed.
    However, I would hope that as Students, they would respect the 20th Century Super Scientist Albert Einstein and his definition of insanity. Namely, “!Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”. It is just madness.
    Socialism has failed many times over the years and always will. Ordinary people need to do their own thing and not be controlled by debilitating rules and false promises laid down by elites. Lest the people be Zombies.
    A Vote for Socialism is a step back into the dire 1979s of this country and that history should be taught in every school in his country.

  53. anon
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Ya dont have to print cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

    I stand by my assertion ( pre brexit ) of who would be good
    Farage Lead
    JRM ( with better haircut and faster diction )
    Pretty Pritti
    JR in the background with his feet up running the show.
    Plus Raab and Javid.
    Definately not….
    …. well I wont say. You can guess.

  54. ian
    Posted October 1, 2018 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    The UK will always be a socialist place, the gov breeds it into them from kids to give parties and MPs the chances to bribe them with their own money or borrow money on their behalf, the bribe never really get to the people it usually ends up as a bailout for companies and gov for bad management inside gov and outside, that why they love socialism so much, it allows for mistakes at the top and middle but not at the bottom, it so easy for them to fire up the printing press to get themselves and companies out of trouble, with capitalism that’s a no-no because people are only paying indirect taxes on goods and services, business and companies along with gov and self-employed would take the full hit of their mistakes, the culture that they have at the moment would change, they could not afford mistakes in the boardroom or in government, capitalism does not allow for big mistakes or bailouts, people the top would find it hard to hold down a job with amount of mistakes they make and in gov, that why capitalism will never happen because politicians will always want their hand in your pocket to pay for their mistakes and give companies and elite a free ride on your backs, what would do without socialism.

  55. agricola
    Posted October 2, 2018 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Socialism is a very broad church. Everything from Mrs May to Lenin. The version that is giving birth to itself under Corbyn is too close to Lenin to be workable. First because it is extreme, has been tried, and been seen to fail throughout the Russian Communist world and her one time satellites. Second because those who might vote socialist (labour), are nowhere near as extreme. They are in fact quite conservative in the none political meaning of the word. It is overdue that the social democratic elements in the Labour party broke free of this Corbyn travesty of democracy and re-joined their traditional labour voters.

  • About John Redwood

    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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