I have been asked to comment on the Speaker’s ruling on Wednesday. I will do so when I have heard the Speaker’s further consideration, which he promised to Jacob Rees Mogg and Iain Duncan Smith who raised important questions at the time. At issue is the question of whether a Business motion tabled by government should be amendable, and what putting a motion forthwith means as this is often referred to in Standing Orders.
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January 10, 2019
Well if you don’t know the answer you can imagine how confusing we find it in the real world. Rules can be interpreted to the letter or by the intention behind them. Thats what police men used to do, make a considered judgement on the spot, minus the PC world looking over their shoulder. I think we were the better for it.
January 10, 2019
I don’t fully understand the implications. None the less I never did like or trust Bercow.
Does his ruling weaken our chances of leaving the EU without a deal, or not ? is all I need to know.
January 10, 2019
It is interesting that everyone from the speaker to the Japanese PM are again telling the UK what to do, just as the world did at the time of the 2016 people’s vote.
January 11, 2019
The Japanese PM’s visit and support was on the list leaked and denied before Christmas. He was representing Japanese car manufacturers and the globalist lobby. It was his Obama moment. No mention of harpooning intelligent mammals on the news. It would have spoiled the plot.
January 10, 2019
Saw your question to the SNP guy in Parliment today.
Next time you have an opportunity to rebut them could you please remind them that if they had “won” their referendum Scotland would have been out the UK and simultaneously out of the EU.
And ironically we’d still be so deep in negotiation with wee Scotland ( if you think its difficult to unpick 40 years of integration, try unpicking 300 ) that ironically the UK would never have had the EU vote.
January 10, 2019
With the oil price at 1/2 the level it was in the Scottish referendum they would also be bust. By now the Scottish electorate would be moving radically to the right and searching for a Scottish Thatcher to sort out the mess.
January 11, 2019
Moving to the south more likely.
January 10, 2019
Many thanks, Sir John.
January 10, 2019
I guess this time when The Speaker refers to his advisors he’ll get the response:
“You’re on your own, mate!”
January 10, 2019
This is all irrelevant anyway. The controversy obsesses MPs because they think the world revolves around them and they delude themselves into thinking that they are entitled to ‘govern the country’.
They are emphatically not so entitled.
The Executive governs the country. MPs are the to hold it to account and, should they consent to do so, to pass laws when asked. They have no powers ot to tell the Government what to do.
We live under the Rule of Law in this country. The Government is obliged to apply the Rule of Law and is circumscribed by it. So these ‘motions’ and the ‘amendments’ to them, are irrelevant in law.
To quote the Supreme Court in the Gina Miller case:-, ‘they are of ‘political significance’, but have no legal consequences whatsoever’.
No number if motions can change the fact that the Crown in Parliament has legislated to Leave the EU on March 29th 2019 and, independently of that law itself, International Law also ensures we do so by virtue of Article 50.
‘Deal or No Deal’ the only way out, is to enact a new law empowering the Government to withdraw the Article 50 Notice, or a law empowering it to ask for the Departure Date to be postponed.
Neither can be done in the time remaining without the Government promoting it. If the House of Commons was unwilling to contemplate leaving the EU with No Deal or in the alternative accept whatever Deal was on offer, they shouldn’t have voted to Invoke Article 50 or pass the Brexit Act.
If any Tory MP fails to support the Government in any Confidence Vote they should be expelled from the party and delelected immediately.
January 10, 2019
Forthwith is defined as ‘immediately’ and ‘without delay’. I wonder how many will make excuses for Bercow and attempt to say there can be exceptions, etc., etc..
January 10, 2019
Exactly right, Prangwizard. In business, for example, one might see a memo saying “these instructions are to be implemented forthwith”. It means straightaway, or as you rightly say, ‘ without delay’.
January 10, 2019
Iain Duncan Smith and Jacob Rees Mogg lost.
They should get over it.
MPs backed the amendment by 51% to 49% – which, apparently, is an overwhelming margin.
We should not worry what the losers think.
Parliamentary soverignty is a wonderful thing.
January 10, 2019
It is an odd situation that those now fighting to use Parliamentary sovereignty are determined to use it to give it away to the EU.
January 10, 2019
Edward2
Exactly.
January 10, 2019
You know when you stand back and take a look at this, it becomes clear the ‘war’ in the HoC is between remainers and remainers.
May – a remainer
Bercow – a remainer
Grieve – a remainer
Soubry – a remainer
Corbyn – doesn’t know what he is, bless him.
It’s all remainers lobbing grenades at remainers.
I don’t think they’ll be satisfied until they’ve wrecked the country and caused a far right backlash on the streets.
Perhaps they should just be put in an amphitheater and made to scrap it out amongst themselves, full gladiatorial arsenal and all. I’d pay good money to watch.
They should take heed; we don’t see them as fit for much else.
Watch what happens at the next general election if there is any doubt, when the skunks will finally come to realise what people think of them.
January 11, 2019
@Steve
You’ve been listening to Anna Soubry again, obviously.
January 10, 2019
But most of those who voted were old Andy. So should it count?
January 10, 2019
Andy
“Iain Duncan Smith and Jacob Rees Mogg lost.
They should get over it.”
Indeed they should. It’s called democracy, not much of it about these days though.
“We should not worry what the losers think.”
Being one yourself Andy……etc.
Oh and if you wish to advise others on matters concerning sovereignty, please at least learn how to spell it.
January 10, 2019
Dear Mr. Redwood,
In reply to Andy…
The losers of the Speaker’s Ruling will not be asking for a People’s Ruling to overturn it.
January 10, 2019
Yes. We’ve always known MPs are out of kilter with the public over the EU and many other issues for that matter.
January 11, 2019
A good example is the govt’s refusal to provide safe sanctuary to persecuted Christians like Asia Bibi whose life is in danger, as well as her family’s. Shameful.
January 10, 2019
My impression was simply that Jacob R-M was concerned for the consequential implications for the standard business of the House. If the government is unable to rely on being able to move urgent motions that ought to be passed “forthwith” without risking all variety of amendments moved by the opposition, then it means that every motion needs to be attended by every MP (just in case the opposition seeks to sneak in a perverse amendment) and furthermore they need to provide for additional time to get these motions through parliament.
Don’t forget that the House of Lords will also be wanting to sneak in additional amendments if they see the opportunity…
January 10, 2019
Andy
What no comment on the economic collapse in both Germany and France? Why is that ? Ford closing German and Spanish factories? Merkel & Macron signing an agreement to unify the two countries as one whilst the citizens are revolting in the streets. Wow no wonder you want to remain part of that, its such a wonderful prospect
January 11, 2019
1.2 million votes is an overwhelming margin.
A vote that should never have happened, partly because they already voted on this Bill is another matter altogether.
Any other convenient untruths you’d like to try squirming into?
January 10, 2019
If it is now possible to amend standing orders I do not expect Parliament to ever again waive through an EU directive. However long we remain tied to the EU by either withdrawal agreements or membership.
January 10, 2019
Speaker Bercow’s wife has a sticker on her car which he drives to work.
“Bollocks to Brexit.”
So. Would the referee of the last FA cup final have got away with having an “I love Chelsea ” sticker on a car he drove to that match ?
January 11, 2019
Is it right that an MP’s wife should have a parking space reserved for MPs? It was good to watch the biased verbose quisling squirm and refuse to answer, when every person in the world knew the truth.
January 10, 2019
There is a useful article on this topic over at ConservativeHome, to be found here:
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/01/chris-white-the-day-the-speaker-set-fire-to-erskine-may.html
It seems that the Speaker overruled the Clerk of the Commons on whom MPs rely for interpretations of Erskine May, parliament’s procedural bible and rule book. If so the implications are potentially momentous for the conduct of parliamentary business.
January 10, 2019
Seems our Mr Bercow has been a naughty boy then.
I always thought he came across as egotistic and extremely arrogant. Was at the shops ten minutes ago and saw him on the front page of the papers – a right smug look on his face.
Who brings him to account when he breaks the rules I wonder? Though instinct tells me he’s the type to hang himself by his own petard, that’s what the smug always end up doing.
Then we’ll see him laughing from the other side of his face.
January 11, 2019
We are in a right pickle with a PM and a Speaker going off the rails, neither of whom we seem able to get rid of, though both are extending their power.
January 10, 2019
Never a truer word Edward2
January 10, 2019
It’s democracy working. Only loons or those intent on damaging the country could deny hurrying up the government after wasting 4 weeks since mid december is a good idea.
January 10, 2019
Peter Bone pointed out that he was refused the opportunity to make an amendment, in addition Charlie Elphicke (I think) pointed out that Grieve’s amendment was defective , so odd that Bercow allowed Grieve’s amendment . Perhaps it’s all explained by Margaret Beckett’s appearance on the Today programme this morning, which was odd, for she has become pretty invisible of late, and it wasn’t of note for anything she said on the programme for that was really a case of ‘nothing to see here’, but of note regarding what she had said previously about Bercow during the bullying allegations he was facing, that they needed to keep this EU supporting Speaker in position over Brexit. A little revelation the Today programme didn’t see fit to inform listeners about.
It was pretty clear from what Bercow said in the Commons yesterday that he was making it up as he goes along, and got shirty when embarrassed about his ruling. If Bercow is not going to respect the House of Commons rules and precedent, the he is less of a Speaker and more of a despot.
January 10, 2019
John Bercow is low calibre & unsuited to being Speaker; perhaps worse even than his predecessor. He should be diverted to a different career path, yet it is not evident that he would be of any value or useful. Some suggestions might attract him away from endangering parliament.
January 11, 2019
Bercow’s ruling was arrived at by him, manipulating the language which states that no ‘debate’ is allowed on an amendment and replacing it with a ruling that says a VOTE on the amendment is permitted, without the amendment being ‘debated’.
Leaving aside the fact that that this vote has no effect in law anyway it’s not legally possible for a public body in the UK to make decisions without some formal consideration process.
The Government and public bodies routinely lose Judicial Reviews not on account of the decision itself, but for the very reason that they can’t show evidence that they’ve given proper consideration to some feature of the question in hand.
It is not possible to arrive at a decision on a motion put before the House unless the House debates it, or at least formally votes on guillotining the debate.
If this ruling is put to Judicial Review Bercow should lose.
January 11, 2019
“Bercow’s ruling was arrived at by him,”
Or fed to him by the macchiavellian Grieve.
January 11, 2019
The real problem presented by The Speaker’s decision is that any (ANY) future motions presented to Parliament “forthwith” cannot be guaranteed to be unamendable. By his recent ruling The Speaker has set a precedent which may bind future Speakers.
The best solution for the Government is to present motions they don’t want amended in the normal way with the use of the word “forthwith”. If The Speaker chooses to allow amendments to such a motion then the Government should withdraw it forthwith.
The Speaker made a second error in the recent case by allowing his clerks to advise other MPs that the motion was unamendable. Thus Peter Bone was advised not to submit an amendment. It was further evidence of apparent bias by The Speaker.
I have tried in the previous two paragraphs not to make my criticism personal to John Bercow, but he deserves personal criticism. He lacks the integrity of most of his immediate predecessors. Bullying his staff, calling The Leader of the House “a stupid woman”, allowing himself to be associated with anti-Brexit slogans, not to mention his lengthy, public lectures to MPs he wishes to admonish…. The list goes on. Still, I am sure that his mirror loves him!
January 11, 2019
Is Erskine May now redundant ?
January 11, 2019
My understanding is slightly different than the article. I understood that the issue is that the business motion is not amendable via a motion stating that it could not be amended, but Bercow allowed it on the basis that Grieve was amending that amendment!
The key point here is that the Bill in question had already been passed with an approved motion as an amendment that it could have no further motions to amend the Bill.
Bercow allowed Grieve’s amendment on the ridiculous basis that it was an amendment to that motion, not an amendment to the Bill itself. That is clearly nonsense, since once it has been voted for, the motion becomes part of the Bill.
I look forward to the full article on this subject.
January 11, 2019
In earlier times heads would have been on spikes by now. Let us hope that we do not have to seen a return to these days of old. Those voting to destroy democracy should be very careful about what they want to replace it with.
January 11, 2019
It’s because of the uncertainties brought by Brexit, your lordship. I am not even going to ask if you have a shred of remorse.
4,500 jobs gone. The turkeys did genuinely vote for Christmas.