This Parliament has argued and voted itself into an impossible position. 82% of the votes were cast in the General election for two main parties promising to deliver Brexit. Now one of those is doing everything to prevent it, and some Conservative MPs have also assisted them or have joined the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems make a mockery of their name by insisting on not implementing the referendum, saying they want a second vote and finishing off their anti democratic credentials by telling us if that went the wrong way they might ignore that too. We have a Leader of the Opposition who has gone on and on about the need for an early election. Now he is faced with the opportunity of one he looks as if he might instruct his party not to vote for it.
Today the Commons will seek to drive a dangerous Bill through all its stages in one short sitting. Its purpose will be to deliver the UK into the power and control of the EU. The PM will be required to ask for an extension of our membership, and to accept any terms the EU wishes to dictate. No sensible Remain voter, let alone a Leave voter, can think that a good idea. The Commons procedures have been changed to allow this to happen. An urgent debate which was always on a neutral motion has been attached to a detailed Timetable motion not of the government’s choosing, binding the Commons and changing Standing Orders. This teems with irony. The MPs who have done this claim to be the true democrats and the defenders of the constitution. Instead they warp the constitution to seek to pass a Bill which would bind the UK into EU servitude against the express wishes of the electors in the referendum and in the 2017 General election.
There are usually constraints on MPs other than the government legislating. Only a Minister can move a Money Order, so any new legislation entailing substantial expenditure requires government agreement. This proposed Bill involves spending £1bn or more extra a month for however long we have to stay in the EU. Yet we are told the Speaker is unlikely to agree it needs a Money resolution. This Bill affects royal prerogative. It therefore should require Queen’s Consent – usually offered by the PM on her behalf- before its third reading. It will be interesting to see if this convention is observed. The government would wish to use Queen’s consent to stop the debate on this Bill to prevent its passage. In recent times Queen’s Consent has been witheld from Bills the government did not favour. As this is a fundamental constitutional Bill of great significance, it would usually get substantial debating time in both houses, yet yesterday’s timetable motion tramples over this normal protection.
Issues being debated include would an early election help? Should Conservative MPs who back this legislation lose the whip? The danger of that is then there are fewer MPs to whom the government can look to get any aspect of its programme through, making it even more difficult to govern.
September 4, 2019
1 You/we don’t need MPs who are hypocrites and defy the will of the people.
2. Let Corbyn, Blairites and the Libby Dems stop Boris calling an election. The longer this continues the more support he will have.
3 The focus must be on an Augean stable clearance via a GE.
We’ll get there.
September 4, 2019
@SJS; 1/. MPs have not defied the will of the people as the people have never been asked How nor When the UK should Leave the “European Union”, both those questions reside with the elected HoCs, not the people nor the Executive. 2/. Indeed Corbyn’s popularity might well increase (again) the longer governance by “Boris Proclamation” goes on. 3/. Yes, Labour, the LDs, the SNP & PC has been saying that for years, never mind “real conservatives” within the Conservative Party…
I’m no fan of “Austerity continuity Hammond” but I do agree with his comments from yesterday on the Today programme.
September 5, 2019
@ Jerry, what comments were those from Mr Hammond?
September 5, 2019
@Know-Dice; Not allowing any single political factions to take over the Conservative party, nor allowing entryism.
September 5, 2019
Ok, thanks
September 4, 2019
The traitor Letwin fails to comply with his own advice. He now proves parliament has no purpose for the people if it defies the will of the public.
Tories will be toast if it fails to deliver Brexit in October. The death of your party certain. Expelling defiant traitors of the EU is reasonable.
Those leaving parliament also need to have consequences i.e. Legislation to strip them of titles and pensions, including Bercow.
To hand control of our nation to a foreign power is shocking. Those 328 MPs need to be prosecuted under a new offence specifically created when a new govt is formed. No immunity. Mayhab still needs to be investigated for dishonest Kitkat policy and all those involved.
The swamp has got out of control.
September 4, 2019
The last two by elections should be considered carefully. Peterborough and its postal rigged votes and standing Brexit Party against Tory. Vote Tory get lib dem.
Hammond, Letwin and the others have now shown that the previous indicative votes were a good indication of their treachery and that of the Mayhab govt. It is difficult not to conclude that Mayhab knew what her cricket watching buddies/ministers and chancellor were up to.
September 4, 2019
Only fascist regimes do retrospective criminal law, Hope, not that it would bother you in the slightest, I surmise.
Well Johnson’s record so far is impressive isn’t it? 100% defeats in the Commons, and not a single answer to a question from the Leader Of The Opposition at PMQS eh?
September 4, 2019
Might I add, that having just watched John’s excellent speech in the Commons, I commend him warmly, for the best argument of the day, as to why the UK should not leave the European Union at all, and why it was truly fatuous ever even to consider such a thing.
The UK had enormous influence as one of the Big Three, and a very strong hand in shaping the law and the general direction of the European Union.
September 4, 2019
That’s all very well Sir Joe Soap but for every month these traitors keep us in the EU, we have to hand over an extra £1 BILLION for the privilege.
September 4, 2019
@JoolsB; “£1 BILLION [per month]”
That’s the price of living in a parliamentary democracy, of an Executive who have over the last three years repeatedly refused to return to the people for further instruction (not a re-run of the original question as some europhiles want), and now the price of an autocratic Executive.
September 5, 2019
Before you can have another referendum you need to know what the final agreed deal is.
At the moment we have no agreed final deal.
We haven’t even started negotiations on trade arrangements and many other important items.
Then you can ask, deal or no deal.
September 5, 2019
@Edward2; Total nonsense, bordering on simple trolling. By your logic (sic) there should not have been the first referendum either, as no one knew what our (Brexit) “final agreed deal” with the EC/EU27 would be -Duh!
September 5, 2019
Well that’s progress Jerry normally you say utter nonsense.
Trolling…just a simple point made politely, you are getting all silly again.
Calm down man as Speaker Bercow would say.
The point you miss is this, I am not against a second referendum but before we can have one we need to know what the actual deal is.
And that deal needs to be agreed by the UK and EU and have passed Parliament.
Do you see?
September 4, 2019
Will be get there and still avoid Corbyn? Will we avoid a betrayal by Boris with a modified W/A after/if he wins a majority? What is certain is that Hammond and Rory Stewart and the rest must be kicked out and never let back in. They tarnish the reputation of the whole party hugely. They are not conservatives in any sense anyway. We do not want them to undermine the next government too.
The Conservative now must stand for UK based democracy, low taxes, small government, a bonfire of red tape, freedom and choice, law and order with deterrents, strong defence, the abolition of dire state monopolies, sound economic management, no government waste, free trade with the world and selective only & sensible immigration controls. The complete opposite of the dire May/Hammond sick joke of a government that put us in this mess. May must retire too.
September 4, 2019
This is war. WTO Brexit is my right as a British citizen who voted aware of all the rules which this parliament has now overruled.
September 4, 2019
Linda, could you summarise for us the differences between the UK being a member of the EU and the UK not being a member of the EU but a member of the WTO.
September 4, 2019
If you have to ask that question then your political education is sorely lacking. The WTO is NOT a supranational government.
September 4, 2019
Nor is the European Union.
September 5, 2019
Martin, Yes, the EU is a supranational government – see Declaration 17 (Lisbon).
September 5, 2019
Marty
Only fascist regimes do retrospective criminal law, what you mean like May and Hammonds retrospective changes to Loan Charge Tax law?
“The UK had enormous influence as one of the Big Three, and a very strong hand in shaping the law and the general direction of the European Union”
Yet Cameron couldn’t even get them to pretend to make some cosmetic changes in order to avoid a referendum
Its almost as if you are talking complete ……….
September 5, 2019
This post should have appeared under a Martin post further up the thread but once again captcha is playing up. Honestly why bother with it
September 4, 2019
sovereignty
September 4, 2019
@glen cullen; But we surrender “sovereignty” to the UN, by way of the UNCHR etc, also the Council of Europe (that the UK was a founding member of [1] in 1949, in London, it’s founding treaty being the Treaty of London) and their ECHR, should the UK leave the UN, the Council of Europe, and all their treaties that stop our parliament being fully sovereign, enacting what ever laws they might wish?
[1] proposed by the greatest Conservative leader and PM ever, one Winston Churchill in 1943, whose grandson was kicked out of the very same party last night
September 5, 2019
Jerry, The EU treaties are designed to make a constant stream of new law; other treaties from double taxation to the UN are not.
September 5, 2019
@NickC; The answer giving, to a question, was about Sovereignty, not politics (and thus taxation). The founding treaty of the UN does remove the power of the UK parliament to make law unilaterally, as does membership of the Council of Europe.
Talking of taxes and the European Union, funny how so many Brexiteers complain bitterly about the EU setting taxes in the UK but never complained about the UK parliament setting Scottish taxes in the union that is the United Kingdom. Nor do they comment on the fact that the Federal govt of the USA set taxes in Texas and all the other 49 States of the USA.
September 5, 2019
A whole net of red herrings.
Well done jerry
September 4, 2019
Helena, Control of laws, borders and money. The freedom to conduct trade deals with non EU countries. Regain control of our territorial waters and fishing.
In a word, SOVEREIGNTY.
September 4, 2019
Sovereignty is relative, not an absolute. NATO demands arguably greater concessions than the European Union for instance. Where are the EU bases on UK soil, from which it conducts operations at its own whim?
You sound like old maiden aunts discussing virginity.
September 5, 2019
Marty
BOF is correct we need more than anything the freedom to conduct our own trading deals. The EU is appalling at it and it doesn’t work
I’m sure you know a lot about virginity , but not much else
September 5, 2019
Nonsense NATO doesn’t make laws supreme over us.
Neither does the UN.
In business there is a fundamental difference between a company being a member of a trade body and your company being part of a group where they own most of your shares.
NATO and the UN doesn’t have anthems, flags Presidents MEPs it’s own currency central bank and supreme courts.
September 5, 2019
@Edward2; But NATO does demand payments from the UK, just as the EC do…
The point you and other cant grasp is, simplistically always singling out the EU is pure and simply cherry picking, and it doesn’t wash any more, and hasn’t done for some time now, eurosceptics might have been able to get away with simplistic arguments back in Sir John Major’s time as PM but easy access to official documents was more difficult (but not impossible) back then for mere plebs.
September 5, 2019
It is a simplistic argument indeed Jerry.
The EU is a very different organisation to trade bodies and defence bodies.
Good use of bold type by the way.
September 4, 2019
@BOF; Nonsense, see my reply to @glen cullen (should it be published).
September 4, 2019
I’d also be interested in the numbers Linda if you know them.
How much do we pay the WTO to run compared to the EU?
Do we have to pay the WTO taxes on Rest of the world imports at 80%.
Do we have to pay the WTO taxes on prostitution and drugs that we don’t tax so those that don’t use these services pay for those that do?
How much does the WTO cost to run compared to the EU two main locations and multiple others, where is it based, does it move twice each year?
Do we have to pay the pension of the whole of the WTO employees at what rates?
September 4, 2019
Helena,
Not being a member of the EU means NOT paying 80% of CET to the EU, worth about £4 Billion per year.
Not being a member of the EU means NOT paying net £10 Billion per year to the EU for “Free Trade”.
Not being a member of the EU, but trading under WTO rules means we can charge tariffs on imports that are more closely aligned to the UK’s requirements rather than the EU’s. And those tariffs can be used within the UK in any case.
September 4, 2019
Helena, Does the WTO demand we have no border control and have to accept – and pay for/take care of – millions of Third Worlders who will arrive here as unemployable, uneducated, non-English speakers, who only want a better life – for having arrived here. The EU does.
September 4, 2019
Helena
Yup easy
The WTO is a set of global trading standards that the members all agree to abide by unless they make alternate arrangements and enables us to strike trading agreements with countries around the globe that suit our market aspirations
Being a member of the EU requires us to submit to an undemocratic politburo that is attempting to make part of Europe a Federal single entity with common one size fits all trading laws, a protected market customs union, monetary, tax and regulation system controlled by a centralised bureaucracy with no mandate from the people .
Glad to help, always suspected you didn’t know what you were voting for
September 4, 2019
Nothing can be achieved in British politics until we leave the EU and open up the country to a new, prosperous role on the world stage. Outside the EU we will be able to control our borders, our laws and money and set our own trade policy.
September 4, 2019
Borders? Well, we had plenty of those last time I came through Heathrow. Same at Gatwick and the ports, and on eurostar. Laws? Well, what’s going on at Westminster now if it’s not us making our own laws? Money? Last time I looked the pound was the UK’s currency, and no one else’s. We seem to have all the freedoms you want already, inside the EU
September 5, 2019
If you come in from the EU Helena,there is no border in comparison to arriving at New York or Dubai for example.
You play down the large number of powers we have delegated through treaties we have signed to the EU.
September 4, 2019
Helena, I am sure Linda can, but here are the basics:
1. The WTO is not the top tier of UK government; the EU (currently) is (see Lisbon Declaration 17).
2. The WTO does not make new law; the EU does.
3. The WTO bill is about £6.15 million; the EU bill is about £20 billion.
4. The UK is already a member of the WTO.
September 4, 2019
NickC, Do we have to pay this WTO bill of £6.15 million even though we’re in the EU or does the EU pay that out of the money we pay them on our behalf?
September 4, 2019
You are horribly wrong, NickC. The top tier of government in the Uk is our Parliament. We are in the EU only because our Parliament consented to it, and we will leave it if/ when our Parliament so decides. EU law applies in the UK ONLY because Parlaiment lets it
September 5, 2019
And if UK Parliament doesn’t implement EU directives?
September 5, 2019
Helena, And look what is happening, even when the people instruct Parliament that we should Leave.
September 5, 2019
Helena
Our parliament ALREADY did pass a law to leave, they voted for it by a considerable margin. I guess you missed it
September 4, 2019
The EU and the U.K. are already ‘members’ of WTO. 5 of the top 10 EU trading partners trade with them on WTO terms. Being a member of the EU means that the British Monarchy, Parliament, Law and people don’t exist. Why should Kashmir’s have ‘self-determination’ when the U.K. does not? MPs yesterday screaming on behalf of Kashmiri democracy and sovereignty before voting to continue the subjugation if the U.K. to a foreign, aggressive power!
September 4, 2019
Oh dear Helen. You like the dunces hat too much.
September 4, 2019
@Linda; But a non-WTO Brexit is the right, as British citizens, for all those who voted aware of all the rules which this government has now (tried to) overruled…
The country voted to Leave, that is all, there has been no referendum asking How nor When the UK should leave, so no direct instruction has been issued by the people to both the Executive nor Parliament.
Indeed it is often suggested here that it was the official campaign groups from which people made their decision upon (Leave or Remain) but even Vote Leave talked often and op0enly about leaving with a deal, it will be “the easiest deal in history” they said.
September 4, 2019
Perhaps the next vote to the public should be:
Leave with no deal if necessary
Leave with the only withdrawal agreement the EU are willing to offer
Then the people get to choose rather than parliamentarians who got elected on “no deal is better than a bad deal” but have then thwarted the Man tasked with delivering a better deal than the one rejected three times or no deal.
September 5, 2019
Agreed, the choice should ONLY be just leave or leave with whatever deal is available at the time.
Certainly Remain should not be on the table as most Remainders suggest.
September 4, 2019
Jerry
Let us have your full list of referendum options, many thanks
As you’ve been told many times, first we leave then we negotiate trade agreements
September 4, 2019
@Walter; Oh do keep up! I posted my idea for a referendum the other day, indeed you replied to it – remember, when you seemed not to understand the difference between the CU that the “European Union” and Norway etc. are a part of and the EUCU that the EU28 + others, (such as Monaco) are members of.
A very simply question, should the UK remain in a CU with the EU, yes or no – if no the only possible Brexit is on WTO rules.
September 5, 2019
Jerry
That was a referendum question got it
On the post where you INCORRECTLY claimed that Norway is in the Customs Union when it isn’t , that one?
“A very simply question, should the UK remain in a CU with the EU, yes or no – if no the only possible Brexit is on WTO rules.”
What about the rest of the questions then genius? Youre the one who keeps banging on about the multiple ways to leave. So by your own demands you cant just have one question
Blimey you struggle to think at times
September 5, 2019
Would the EU allow your preferred deal Jerry?
They seem not to want to negotiate anything new other than the Withdrawal Agreement.
I think you would need to get the EU and the UK to agree a deal then put that to the people.
September 5, 2019
@Edward2; Oh dear… I wasn’t offering a suggested ‘deal’ I was asking a question, who knows what the EC/EU27 would offer given a UK public binding public vote on membership of a CU.
September 5, 2019
Yes who knows.
So we have another referendum on the question you pose and then the EU say no thanks.
They have said no more negotiations no alteration to the Withdrawal Agreement on many occasions.
And they have said we cannot be in the Customs Union if we are not a member of the EU.
But I like your optimism.
September 5, 2019
@Walter; Blimey you struggle to think at times, Norway is in a CU with the EU, just not the EUCU, go read up on the EEA, then the EUCU.
I never said that there might not be other questions, that may or may not need their own referenda, I was talking through a way of (hopefully) ruling out a CU, any CU, and thus obtaining a WTO exit.
But then it was silly of me to expect Brexiteers to use democracy to sort out the problems, after all it wasn’t as though they were demanding democracy be returned to the people was it!
September 6, 2019
Jerry
Yeh but no but yeh but …. oh look ….over there …
From Fact check website
Norway isn’t part of the EU’s customs union. Its exports to the EU have to go through customs controls to check that goods from outside the EEA aren’t entering the EU through the back door. It could not, for example, just import a car from China and then export it to Germany without facing a tariff.
I did go read and this is what the EEA website says
What is not covered by the EEA Agreement?
The EEA Agreement does not cover EU common agriculture and fisheries policies, although it contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fish products. It does NOT entail a customs union, nor does it include a common trade policy, common foreign and security policy, justice and home affairs, harmonised taxation or the economic and monetary union.
Seems like you are totally WRONG ….again
Go lie down Jerry, your brain needs a rest
September 4, 2019
I will remind you again that any exit from the EU will be, by default, to WTO trading, if only for a limited time period. The EU cannot (and will not) countenance any trade negotiations while we are still EU members. Their rules prevent it and their current senior personnel reject the notion completely. They prefer to try to punish the U.K. for our choice of a different future.
September 4, 2019
@Jagman84; Nonsense, unless that is the wish of the UK govt.
September 4, 2019
I agree. I voted leave. I don’t want No Deal – yet they keep saying 17.4 million voted leave, which means 17.4 million want No Deal.
Absolute hogwash.
My hope is that parliament force the government into accepting the withdrawal agreement, and we can actually get on with the business of leaving rather than this farce.
September 4, 2019
The WA is not leaving, it binds us in to the EU and our escape would be vetoed by France unless we gave them all our fish, and by Spain unless we gave them Gibraltar. Do you really want that ? I don’t.
September 4, 2019
Surely you don’t wish to accept May’s surrender treaty, thrice rejected and the most scorned proposal in history?
September 4, 2019
Then let us have a general election.
September 4, 2019
What a vote for “out” meant, was explained by David Cameron at the last PMQs before the referendum and he especially asked all MPs to take note that it meant Leave in 2 years plus and “then” negotiate. No MP has any excuse not to know this:
David Cameron PMQs 15th June 2016 Question 14:
“I am very happy to agree with my hon. Friend. “In” means we remain in a reformed EU; “out” means we come out. As the leave campaigners and others have said, “out” means out of the EU, out of the European single market, out of the Council of Ministers—out of all those things—and will then mean a process of delivering on it, which will take at least two years, and then delivering a trade deal, which could take as many as seven years. To anyone still in doubt—there are even Members in the House still thinking about how to vote—I would say: if you have not made up your mind yet, if you are still uncertain, just think about that decade…”
September 4, 2019
Jerry, A WTO Brexit is inevitable – almost all our current global trade is already conducted under the WTO framework, even our trade with the EU27. In or out of the EU, international trade is WTO trade. The EU itself is registered at the WTO as an RTA.
Define your “How?”. Leaving the EU must mean the UK as a nation is no longer subject to EU laws, courts, or dues. Your “How?” appears to me to be a method of making “Leave” only a partial Leave. Nobody voted for that, it was not on offer.
I have no recollection of VoteLeave as a campaign stating that a deal with the EU would be “the easiest deal in history”, though some foolish politicians did claim that. Certainly the VoteLeave leaflet I helped to distribute (over 40k of “5 Reasons”) did not even mention a deal with the EU, but did mention the WTO.
September 5, 2019
@NickC; Nonsense, Norway is not a member of the European Union, but it does not trade on just WTO rules with the EU28, nor is it a member of the EUCU.
Oh but Norway have had to accept the EU’s Four Freedoms you and other have bleated in the past, indeed, but that is not the same argument/question as asking about membership of the “European Union”, I’m sure that once explained the people would reject such a CU if they were asked via a How-to referendum, but perhaps I’m being over optimistic..
As for your memory, what ever, again you miss the point, VoteLeave most certainly did talk about getting a Trade Agreement. Indeed commentators to this site have complained bitterly that the EC refused to hold parallel WA and TA agreement talks during the A50 process, insisting that a WA must be agreed before any TA talks could begin.
September 4, 2019
Rubbish, you could spend 20 years arguing when or if we should change the TV channel! You have never done a days work in your life!
September 4, 2019
@tim; I’m not a bit like you! Every day I have to negotiate best price, if I did not my customers would take their trade to my competitors, nor can I just assume my customers and competitors are blathering idiots to be taken for fools…
September 5, 2019
Jerry
If you ever need help it making your business better I am happy to help. Heres a hint its not always about price
September 4, 2019
“How do you want the government to proceed?” asks JR. I want it to use all the weapons in the constitutional armoury to defeat this attempted coup by Parliament against the people, designed to hand us over bound and gagged to a foreign power.
Mrs Thatcher’s first act in office was to award a big pay rise to the police. It proved its worth as she smashed the then enemy within, the trade unions. Soon we may see a howling rentamob on the streets of London, intent on doing by intimidation and violence what their leaders cannot do by lawful means. Police support will be needed then too.
September 4, 2019
I too want it to use all the weapons in the constitutional armoury to defeat this attempted coup by Parliament against the people, designed to hand us over bound and gagged to a foreign power.
Rory Stewart, Philip Hammond (perhaps more) still want to stand again as “Conservatives” – No, no, no – they made their choice and they are not Conservatives at all in any sense. Hammond has delivered the highest, most complex and most idiotic taxes for over 50 years. They are tax borrow and piss down the drain, EUphile, anti-democratic Libdims at best. The last thing we want is these 21 fake Tories undermining the next government as they have done this one. Rather more others need to go too.
September 4, 2019
eeyore
“, designed to hand us over bound and gagged to a foreign power.”
Since when do 28 independent countries with their own parliaments in the world’s largest, wealthiest trading bloc constitute a ‘foreign power’?
September 4, 2019
Margaret howard: “Since when do 28 independent countries with their own parliaments in the world’s largest, wealthiest trading bloc constitute a ‘foreign power’?”
Bless you Margaret, you are persistent in your dissemination of untruth.
The United States of America is the wealthiest trading bloc.
The US economy is ranked first at $21bn, whereas the EU is ranked second at $18bn and when the UK leaves the EU, The EU’s economy will be 11% smaller.
September 5, 2019
There’s none so blind as those that will not see.
September 4, 2019
Since they handed over control to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Are we negotiating with German industrialists or French farmers?
No, because they’ve handed over their future to Barnier and co. That’s what being a member of the EU means.
September 4, 2019
Yes, a hundred thousand mobility scooters could indeed cause a few traffic problems.
September 4, 2019
What an idea lol.
September 4, 2019
Like a lot of remainer lefties you are not very PC martin.
It is unacceptable to make jokes at the expense of people who have mobility problems and disabilities.
September 4, 2019
Martin in Cardiff
“working class”, labour hero Cardiff Marty now posting derogatory comments about disabled people. Very tasteful
September 4, 2019
Good luck with your war. We will fight back – and most of us have 20+ years on most of you. Plus you will need to be home in time for Countdown.
September 4, 2019
That made me laugh, Andy, even if you are on the wrong side of the argument.
Keep them coming.
September 4, 2019
Really? You’d have to get up earlier in the morning!!!
September 4, 2019
What’s Countdown?
September 4, 2019
A generation of wimps and social media obsessed fools. I fancy our chances. Plus we ave all the money.
September 4, 2019
@Andy; “[Brexiteers need to be] home in time for Countdown.”
I think you mean Dads Army…
I’m told that Countdown is especially liked by the retired UK expat community in southern European countries!
September 4, 2019
Andy, There are not very many of you, though. During the campaign, only one person thought like you – that the EU was good for the UK. Almost all the people I talked to, who intended to vote Remain, said they were doing so because they did not want “to rock the boat”. Nationally that number must surely have increased, now we can see the EU for what it is.
September 4, 2019
I think that we need only compare the number who marched for Remain with those who turned out for Farage’s coach trip, or for his “March Of The Hundred Thousand” eh?
September 5, 2019
Martin, So the mob is more important than the democratic vote, eh?
September 5, 2019
Marty
I think you’ll find 17 million is a BIGGER number than 16 million . I think you’ll find that Remain dont want an election for a very simple reason, they’d get massacred
Youre welcome
September 4, 2019
Andy
“Plus you will need to be home in time for Countdown”
Oh dear my friend you are soooo out of touch with the modern world. Catch UP TV
September 4, 2019
Personally I prefer to use the ballot box, Andy.
So let’s have an election with every MP’s EU stance first and foremost in their campaign.
On this form a Boris led Tory party (minus some usual suspects) would landslide it.
PS. I don’t hold that younger is fitter. And my class (police constables, soldiers, criminals) have all the guns.
September 4, 2019
Apparently under EU Law which we still are. On wishing to leave the block the withdrawal arrangements MUST include on the out set future trade relation ships. Which the May/EU treay doesn’t, so you could reason it is an illeagal document.
The default position for any Country leaving the EU, again as per their rules is a WTA exit.
Then again remember the EU Parliment is not allowed to scruitinize, ammend, repeal, rules or laws only act on them.
September 4, 2019
Mpst of those MPs were elected in 2017 on a manifesto pledge to honour the referendum result and leave the EU. They now demand that WTO is taken off of the table, which means that the EU can keep the UK trapped in by not agreeing to an FTA.
These people are working for Brussels, not Britain.
September 4, 2019
Good Morning,
I do hope that what is occurring is part of the Johnson/Cummings master plan; if it’s not, it’s looking decidedly dodgy…
A general election is clearly needed, together with an accommodation with TBP – or is that too simple?
September 4, 2019
Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are both Alpha Males. They will not work together very easily.
Having said that, Nigel Farage is passionate about a clean break brexit and he says he will do everything to support Boris Johnson if he comes right out and goes for a clean break brexit too.
September 4, 2019
You’re right, Mr Stallard. They may say what they will about Mr Farage, but his passion is genuine and he appears to have no ‘side’ to him, probably because he isn’t a ‘politician’, as such, but just a man with a mission.
I remember Mr Trump saying before he was elected that, as he wasn’t a politician, and he didn’t speak like a politician, people wouldn’t like what he said or the way he said it. Mr F, I feel, is the same. He and his Brexit Party are the only ones able to be straightforward and focused at the moment.
I hope that Messrs F and J will work together for the good of the country. I see no reason why BJ wouldn’t want that if it means success, and the annihilation of the Labour party – UNLESS he doesn’t want anyone watching too closely if he intends to resurrect May’s surrender treaty in any way.
September 4, 2019
“How do you want the government to proceed?” We are voters we do not matter, we have no say.
In the General Election of 1992 all major parties supported the Maastricht Treaty so voters had no choice. Despite this John Major did not offer a referendum. In 1992 Phillip Lee joined the Conservatives.
In 2019 a Conservative PM battles to deliver the democratic result of a referendum. In 2019 Phillip Lee defects to the LibDems stating “the party I joined in 1992 is not the Party I am leaving today.”
“Since 2010 I have had the privilege of representing the Bracknell Constituency.” Bracknell votes for Leave 35,002 . Bracknell votes for Remain 29,888.
September 4, 2019
Weirdly it is reasonable to suggest that the people of the UK have never ever joined the EU, as no legitimate election for it has been held. The UK people have had their democracy surrendered to a foreign power by those that have never been democratically selected to represent them.
I said ‘selected’ on purpose
While it is a tradition that political parties select candidate’s, that isn’t exactly government by the people for the people – recognized as real democracy. That is simply my gang is better than the alternative.
As is the EU way political gangs start by attracting taxpayer funding, so nullifying the efforts of true democracy
September 4, 2019
@Caterpillar; Has Dr Phillip Lee said he opposes Brexit, or does he simply oppose the version of Brexit that you, the ERG & the PM want, you cite the referendum result, so now please cite the official breakdown of those figures for his Bracknell Constituency, those who voted for a WTO exit, those who voted for Flexcit and so on…
The How & When questions have never been put to the people, thus they still reside with the elected HoC, MPs in other words, not the Executive. You and others talk endlessly about democracy, you demanded that democracy returned to the UK parliament but now bleat because it has been, sorry but you do not have a first clue what the word “democracy” means! 🙁
It is not Dr Phillip Lee, nor the other 27 ‘rebels’, who have changed their views since the last GE but the party/Executive.
Reply No Deal is better than a bad deal was our stance in 2017
September 5, 2019
@JR reply; Define “bad deal”, you can’t as it is subjective, for some Mrs May’s WA just needs slight tweaking [1], for others any WA is a bad deal if what they really wanted all along was to leave on WTO rules.
[1] which was the thinking behind version #4 that reappeared as an amendment last night (4th Sept.), and was bizarrely nodded through by the Govt whips/tellers
September 5, 2019
Jerry, Clearly the Tory government wanted (and wants – though heaven knows why!) a trade deal. But the EU has refused one. So the only option now is WTO.
September 5, 2019
@NickC; “the EU has refused [a trade deal]”
No they have not, although they have said they will not start negotiating a TA until the devoice (WA) is settled, call that a Catch22 if you like and I might well agree…
The point I’m trying to make is that a public referendum on aspects of any WA is more likely to be listened to by the EC than some eurosceptic politico, one of the reasons why I disliked any suggestion that Mr Farage should take a hand in the matter.
September 5, 2019
One minute you tell us Parliament is sovereign now you want a referendum on (aspects) of the Withdrawal Agreement which Parliament has rejected three times.
A Withdrawal Agreement the EU has repeatedly said it will not alter or re negotiate.
September 4, 2019
Each MP that claims to be democratic (Dr Lee, Mr Benyon etc.) needs to take a long look at themselves. It is easy to lie to oneself.
[In the case of the LibDems the whole party is not democratic, having a policy against the referendum result. The LibDems don’t even acknowledge that the number that voted Leave in the referendum is higher than the total number that voted in the EU Parliament elections].
My country, the UK is shot (other vowels are available).
September 4, 2019
What a hysterical rant, you are truly rattled. Rightly so. Doesn’t matter what happened in 2016 or in 2017 – when the facts change, smart people change their minds. And the facts have changed – we now know for sure that the Brexiters promises (easy deals! we hold all the cards! exact same benefits as before!) are false. Time to think again, time for a referendum on a deliverable Brexit, not a fantasy one
September 4, 2019
So by your reckoning the democratic majorities can just be ignored because, basically, you didn’t like the result. Why then can’t any future election or referendum be ignored for the same reason?
September 4, 2019
I don’t want to ignore a democratic majority. I want a democratic majority in favour of a different decision from that made in 2016. I want things to change. That is how democracies work. Didn’t you know?
September 4, 2019
And if you got that then I’d want a new democratic majority after that to reach the original decision we already made. Remain lost. Get over it.
September 4, 2019
That logic means ignoring the first people’s vote Len
Next you lot will be wanting a re run of the next election if the result doesn’t please you.
September 4, 2019
So, tell us, Mr Grinds, how would it be if there were another referendum on exactly the same lines, ie a simple choice between leave or remain (or is that too simple for you?) and the result were to be the same – or perhaps (probably) even higher for leave?
Should we have another – best of three?
Is THAT how democracy works best for you people?
September 4, 2019
Quite
Let this Parliament in so much thrall to the EU pass a no deal law. Following a general election one of two things will happen. Either the law will be repealed or we will not leave. Either way someone is going to be ignored because someone else didn’t like the result.
The EU has history of setting citizen against citizen
September 4, 2019
“Doesn’t matter what happened in 2016”. I say it does.
September 4, 2019
The facts haven’t changed, though it is true that some people have now caught up with the implications of leaving the EU, and furthermore, the consequences of an utterly incompetent attempt by a government to ‘respect’ the result of the referendum. Unforgivably, professional politicians were clueless about the biggest political issue of our time – not how to resolve Brexit, but what being a part of the EU implied.
In fairness to this Parliament, what it is trying to do is prevent a no deal Brexit (and I’d be amazed if they didn’t succeed). Of course, for very many MPs, remaining in the EU is much the best option, and of these MPs, very many have been hell bent on achieving this from the very start. If this Parliament then seeks to keep us within the EU without any such mandate from the public, there will be, at the very least, profound and severe electoral consequences. But I suspect that the second referendum is arriving imminently, and the public will therefore be consulted.
Those of us that recognise the good sense of leaving the EU, and certainly of respecting the referendum, are angered by the notion of a second referendum. But the blame for arriving at this point lies squarely with the Conservatives.
The situation is what it is, and though a second referendum is highly unattractive, it is far better than the imposition of a WA, and far better than a GE in which the leave vote will be calamitously split as a result of the utterly dishonest Conservative party, and of their leader who, beneath a clearly (to many, but not all) cracked and chipped veneer is a typical Tory politician, devoid of principle and integrity, and certainly of any idea what he believes beyond Boris is best.
September 4, 2019
“Smart people change their minds.” But Len hasn’t changed his mind. He was a Remainer then and he’s a Remainer now.
Not so smart, Len.
September 4, 2019
Don’t be Len. Be smart!
September 4, 2019
A WTO Brexit is easily deliverable
September 4, 2019
Dear Grinds
Please show me what process we use when a Labour government is elected and proceeds to go to war against our wishes .
1) Changing your mind has no democratic validity
2) You dont have a scrap of evidence that enough people have changed their mind to YOUR argument to even make this claim
3) We have NEVER wanted the same benefits you buffoon thats why we want to leave we DO NOT want the so called “benefits”
4) Keep drinking the Kool Aid , youre in a cult and cant escape
September 4, 2019
Libertarian
You really never learn do you but I am sure it is not too late for even you to mature
September 4, 2019
Hans whatever your name is today
Your post makes no sense , when are you going to apologise for childishly lying about me ?
September 4, 2019
“Keep drinking the Kool Aid, you’re in a cult and can’t escape”. Indeed, libertarian. BTW, do you believe Sir John when he asks you ‘How do you want the Government to proceed?”. What do you think he will do with your answer? Just checking.
September 4, 2019
hefner
Do keep up, I didn’t answer Sir Johns question I responded to Grinds silly post
He cant do anything as I havent posted anything for him to do something with you odd person
September 4, 2019
Libertarian, Well said. Remains like Len Grinds don’t like reality so they construct a fantasy – a “deliverable Brexit” (ie neither deliverable, nor Brexit) where the EU still rules the UK.
September 4, 2019
However, when you say elect me and I promise to do this and also put it in writing and into law. You the taxpayer will pay me for this duty I am carrying out. Then change your mind as everyone has a right to, any right minded person would go back to the people they promised and say I am doing this because – do you agree and will you keep me on.
Its called honesty and integrity. Which the opposite acting frauduantly
September 4, 2019
An early election? – We are voters we do not matter.
The only chance for democracy is for an election before any agreement and for the Conservatives to stand alongside the Brexit Party for an no deal / immediate free trade deal. Even then I don’t think Leave voters will turn out, the truth about democracy in this country is out – we do not live in a democracy.
September 4, 2019
Agreed. Democracy has been eroded in the UK since 1972, when Heath took us into the EEC without electoral consent, and democracy has been sidelined or ignored ever since. It’s how the EU operates and their sycophants are only too eager to follow suit.
We do NOT live in a democracy, and world respect for the UK is now all downhill. Such a sad ending to a great country.
The Remainers will have to rig all the elections from now on, or just ban elections altogether. We who know the importance of democracy will never give in.
Trust in Parliament is now zero. It cannot go any lower.
September 4, 2019
Spoken as a Leaver myself, if Leave voters do not turn out, then if we don’t get Leave those voters can only blame themselves.
After three years of no progress, should an election happen I will place my vote in the hopes that a change of faces will remove a few obstructions – though it is going to be a very odd election when the best thing that some constituencies can do for a Conservative government is vote against the Conservative candidate.
September 4, 2019
Call an immediate GE. Expel all Tory rebels from the party. Enter into a GE pact with BP. There is now no other option than this.
The winners of the 2016 Referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU have been abused, denigrated, slandered and criminalised.
British Democracy is teetering. This is deliberate and strategic
Johnson must be brutal and uncompromising.
With regards to Labour. There is one issue that exposes that stain of a party and its claim that it is the party of tolerance, compassion and humanity. Expose them and destroy their reputation
September 4, 2019
Dominic, a PM can’t call an immediate GE. Don’t you even know the law of the land?
September 4, 2019
Err, yes he can, but it has to go to a vote in the Commons.
However, it would appear that despite calling for an election for months, Labour have now decided they would not agree one. Why, if they truly believed they were working in the interests of the country, they would return with a resounding majority? But they are not and they won’t, and that is why they won’t agree to an election.
September 4, 2019
Is it so difficult to understand? Labour wants an election but not at any PM-chosen date. Given the guignol that has been recently voted as PM by the 92k true- and old-in-their-head-young- oldies it makes sense for the Opposition at large to let him show himself as a rather incompetent fool and see what he, his adviser(s) and his bunch of second-class cabinet position holders can come up with.
Isn’t it something a PM who loses his majority and the first votes in his few first days in Parliament?
Maybe in a couple of months to be followed by even better, having TBP MPs able to show us all they can do. Given the results of these brains when active at the local level we can expect even more fun.
May we live in interesting times!
September 4, 2019
Gosh Helena, a true comment at last.
It will be interesting to see how this goes. Labour, SNP & Lib-Dems have been asking for a General Election for Years, now they have the opportunity will they take it?
Will Labour MPs be like moths to a flame…I hope so…
September 4, 2019
If Boris hands are tied then can he ask the people for a referendum decision on
Leave with the only withdrawal agreement the EU are prepared to give
or
Leave without a deal if necessary because the EU will not change course
The vote to Leave was already decided and these Tories that are betraying the people that elected them on the platform of no deal is better than a bad deal (one rejected three times) then will have their orders from the public again instead of guessing what the public want.
September 4, 2019
Boris can simply table a motion notwithstanding the FTPA for a GE
This will require a simple majority
September 4, 2019
We shall see. Labour will look absurd if they resist an election and try to force the PM to surrender to the EU.
It seems Greg Clark was sworn at and told he was not relevant to the Conservatives going forwards. I can well understand why, he is not. He has always been a big government Libdim, EUphile at best. He should not be allowed back under any circumstances.
September 4, 2019
Nor should any of the 20 others. We cannot afford to have any of these fake Conservatives in parliament after the election. We have had far more than enough of these appalling traitors already. Listening to them all today (Sandbatch, Hammond, Clarke x 2, Soames, Gauke and the likes) made me feel nauseous. Many of them even think they can still come back. Never please.
Sensible Conservatives could never vote for these people now they are beneath contempt.
September 4, 2019
Helena
You are of course correct about the fixed term parliament act
So when do you start campaigning to uphold the the law of the land on implementing the vote to Leave as ratified by parliament and put into law ?
September 4, 2019
It requires a 2/3 commons vote in favour of one if the PM petitions for such a vote. Boris Johnson indicated that this will be put in motion, in his reply to the house, after the Parliamentary coup. Theresa May used the same proceedure in 2017. ‘Steptoe’ and his rabble were very keen to indulge the request then but appear to be not so keen this time around.
September 4, 2019
The fixed parliament act is one of the daftest and the only part of parliamentary procedure that does not need a simple majority of 1, or zero if the Speaker is so minded.
September 4, 2019
Helena, The PM has called for a GE; it will be debated tonight. Don’t you even keep up with the news you’re commenting on?
September 4, 2019
Indeed.
September 4, 2019
Many more than the 21 need to be kicked out but a very good start, at least another 50 LibDims pretending to be Conservatives – Alan Duncan and Amber Rudd for example should go.
Grant Shapps keeping open mind on HS2 until enquiry. Why can he not just cancel it? He is pissing £ millions of tax payers money down the drain ever single day for almost zero value. This is very clear, no enquiry is needed.
September 4, 2019
I wish they could find a way of getting rid of the biggest obstacle to democracy in the house – Bercow.
September 4, 2019
Indeed the parties should put up a single pro-Brexit candidate against this appalling traitor.
September 4, 2019
I’ve always been critical of the Tory Party’s selection process, and they only have themselves to blame for there being so many wet pro-EU liberals within their ranks. That always was going to cause a problem at some point because traitors and patriots are diametrically opposed to each other.
Yesterday, we were treated to the spectacle of Theresa May sitting next to Kenneth Clarke and laughing at Boris like some blithering idiot. That made me fume, but it confirmed everything we had hitherto suspected, and why we are in the present predicament. I’d get rid of the pair of them with a lot more besides! The Tories need a complete clear-out, and a subsequent alliance with The Brexit Party who haven’t been tainted by remainer trash.
May should do the honourable thing and resign her seat, (as should those who cross the floor or continue to oppose Brexit). At least that would stop her bitching and sniping from the side lines.
September 4, 2019
Tad, May doesn’t know what honourable means.
September 4, 2019
Lifelogic, Indeed HS2 is a grandiose politicians’ wheeze, and should be scrapped. But it is only costing a few £million a month, whereas the delay to Brexit costs us about £1 bn every month. Still, it’s someone else’s money so what do Remain MPs care?
September 4, 2019
Exactly.
September 4, 2019
Agreed plus:
Repeal fixed term parliament act – the political Laurel and Hardy got us into another fine mess.
Speaker’s term limited to one parliament.
September 4, 2019
That would had deprived us of many Speakers who have served honourably and with distinction for long periods. However I agree that either a confidence procedure to remove a Speaker, or a re-selection after a set number of years would be useful.
September 4, 2019
Perhaps the Speaker could be elected at the time of a general election from a list of candidates put to the people not a sitting MP.
September 4, 2019
Surely Boris can call a GE prior to the ‘debate’ today?
September 4, 2019
Too, Fred, perhaps he could prorogue Parliament from this morning, onwards, to the 1st November? Just pop round to see Her Majesty with a new plan?
September 4, 2019
Agreed, Dominic.
I added this comment to the BrexitFacts4EU website today (link at top of page):
Sacking of these 21 MPs is part of Johnson’s dilemma.
The Torys cannot go into an election as ‘the party to deliver Brexit’ when it is clear that the Conservative Party is full of traitors who refuse to implement the 2016 vote of the people to leave the EU. Not only are they refusing to implement the people’s decision, they are actively collaborating with the EU to damage the UK’s negotiating position, and too, handing all power in that decision to the EU as to when, and thus if, we can leave the EU. [It is like being in a bad marriage and unable to leave until the abusive partner gives their permission for the other to leave, and then dictating the terms of such divorce, in this case, permanent servitude. Totally intolerable and unjust.]
Thus, he must sack them. This may lead to other Tories resigning in protest, and thus the inability to pass legislation. So, he has to go back to the people to re-elect his government, minus the traitors.
He cannot win that election without the support of the Brexit Party, and that support is conditional on having a WTO Exit.
That is Johnson’s choice: to win an election on ‘WTO leave’ with the help of the Brexit Party; or to retain these traitorous Tory MPs and allow the whole Tory Party to sink below the waves, never to resurface, (and too, consequently, letting in a Corbyn Government ).
–
If he doesn’t sack these 21 MPs – today – we know that this is the death of the Tory Party – and too, I might add, good riddance.
September 4, 2019
@Dominic; “Call an immediate GE.”
The PM can ask, not demand, and without a majority he is very unlikely to get an election. What is more if the opposition is really smart they will also vote through the coming Budget in Nov., in other words vote through just enough to keep the current Lame Duck govt in office, but not in power, that way any and all the problems will fall into the lap of the PM in the eye of the
sheepleelectorate..Those who voted to Leave the “European Union” in 2016 have indeed been “abused, denigrated, slandered and criminalised”, by hard line Brexiteers like you Dominic.
“British Democracy is teetering. This is deliberate and strategic
Indeed and that is what has upset the opposition and at least 28 (now) ex-Tory MPs – the HoC is sovereign, not the executive and their advisor…
September 5, 2019
Jerry, Do you even understand what the word “Leave” means? Of course you do. Which means the only alternative explanation is that you want to remain tied to the EU in some form.
September 5, 2019
@NickC; Norway nor Monaco, nor Switzerland are NOT members of the “European Union”, do you understand what the 2016 referendum question actually (legally) asked, I suspect you don’t.
September 4, 2019
You write “[the Bill’s] purpose will be to deliver the UK into the power and control of the EU. The PM will be required to ask for an extension of our membership, and to accept any terms the EU wishes to dictate”. That is a shocking lie. It does no such thing. Why are you so eager to lie about the wishes of the majority of MPs (reflecting the majority view in the country which is that no-deal is damaging)?
September 4, 2019
Garland
I believe it’s a little arrogant for you to decide the majority view of the country without the evidence which would come with a GE. This is no longer about Leave or Remain, anyway, but who runs our country, our Parliament or Brussels.
What extension do you believe a newly empowered EU would be kind enough to grant a nation that contributes a huge amount to their coffers, a situation they’d rather like to see contine? What terms do you believe they’d agree, if any at all? The thrice rejected WA, perhaps, which our MPs appear to have now endorsed?
September 4, 2019
Read section 3.2
I accept the majority of people in the HoC claim no-deal is damaging. However I disagree that is true outside of parliament. Let us see if these people in parliament have the courage of their ‘conviction’ and agree to an election on that basis?
September 4, 2019
I’ve read it, and it does precisely that; you are the one lying.
September 4, 2019
Exactly.
Richard Benyon too it seems wants to come back too. No way. Non of these dire 21 traitors should ever be allowed to stand for the Conservatives ever again. They would harm to whole image of a real Conservative party.
September 4, 2019
Look at section 3(3). If the EU offers a different extension date, the UK can decide whether or not to agree. So clearly the EU cannot unilaterally decide the extension. Yet another Brexit falsehood
September 4, 2019
As usual.
September 4, 2019
The EU parliament and its laws are superior to the UK’s. As such all the time we are in the EU they control what our Parliament does. So clearly that is the truth.
There has never been a Deal offered that permits the UK to run it’s own affairs, the so-called WA/treaty emphasises that EU law is superior to UK law and should the UK exit the UK must still accept EU rule. That was never leaving, that’s what the whole discussion is about
September 4, 2019
Garland
Either your reading skills are poor or its your comprehension.
September 4, 2019
Garland
Tell you what , read the bill then get back to us
September 4, 2019
Well, I just read it. Para 3 of section 3 makes it clear that it is up to the UK to make the final choice. Totally clear. Try reading it yourself, there is no unilateral power for the EU
September 4, 2019
Garland: The Bill states that the UK cannot leave the EU without a deal, therefore the UK must either remain in the EU or leave on a deal that is acceptable to the EU. If the only way of leaving is to accept the EU’s deal then it follows that the EU can dictate any terms it wishes.
This is of course the whole point of the Bill, to either get the UK to remain or leave in name only but in reality be as constrained as if we were a member. There isn’t a single MP who wants to leave the EU but only if we get a deal, everyone rejecting no deal is a remainer.
September 4, 2019
You said:
“… about the wishes of the majority of MPs (reflecting the majority view in the country which is that no-deal is damaging)? …”
MPs are representatives. They have no voice of their own. The contry voted to leave. We did not stipulate a trade arrangement. Such was suggested, but not mandated on the ballot. Due to treacherous and incompetent – or more likely, mendacious – tactics by the ‘negotiators’ we got nothing as May gave everything away from the outset. Thus the best offer is precisely that – nothing.
Thus the nation voted to leave, on whatever terms were available. Nothing is available. However you remainers try to spin it, the simple truth is that MPs, in a representative democracy are irrelevant. Their job is to represent the will of their constituents. Thus the house should show a majority to leave of 52%. What they as individuals – grasping, greedy liars and thieves they are want – is irrelevant.
As others have said. Stop lying. Your tiresome deceit is the reason why this great country is being crippled and we are still chained to an unelected, unaccountable authoritarian dictatorship by – comically – an anti democratic unaccountable, unelected authoritarian dictatorship of self serving remainers in Westminster.
September 4, 2019
For the hard-of-thinking (Garland) read Section 3(2) of the Benn bill.
September 4, 2019
It was reported yesterday that one of the Bill’s supporters let slip to Boris Johnson that it had been drafted with help from the Commission Legal Services.
If this is true our democracy is in tatters.
September 4, 2019
It was Hammond a servant of the EU that let it slip
September 4, 2019
That says it all about the current Tory Party and the other legacies. We’re living in a banana republic with the current Parliament and it’s Civil Serpents totally unaccountable and not worthy. Time for reform of our legislator and voting system to stop this abuse by the legacies. Far to many SNP’s and no Brexiteers!
September 4, 2019
What’s the legality of all this?
Collusion should be illegal.
If it’s not a money bill sanctioned by the government it should be invalid.
If it’s not given the Queen’s consent it should be invalid.
Let’s set the issue aside for one moment (these MPs clearly don’t give a blank about the electorate) and look at the precedents they are setting: making any future government unworkable.
Major reform is required up to disbanding certain institutions.
Donating to the Brexit Party today but will vote conservative if the two parties work together.
September 4, 2019
The money resolution is key. A confrontation with the speaker, to the point is disobedience is now needed.
The current law states that on 31st Oct we no longer pay the EU. Therefore the new bill must have a money resolution. Stand firm and don’t back down, even if you get expelled from Parl.
September 4, 2019
Pete S,
The Queens consent issue is perhaps one chance that this ludicrous control of events by the remainers can be overcome. There is no way that Boris can be constrained in such a way. I hope that he and his team have the answer. The next few days are critical.
September 4, 2019
To add to my comments regarding the Queen’s consent issue, there is a most revealing article on the Briefing for Brexit website which may give grounds for Boris to overcome the bill. It is entitled:
‘Proponents of the new Backbench Bill to stop No Deal face a significant dilemma over Queen’s Consent’ 04/09/2019 by Robert Craig
I urge all to read and, Sir John, with your permission the link is:
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/proponents-of-the-new-backbench-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
There must be a way to stop this treachery – hopfully this is it.
September 4, 2019
When BJ became PM, I suggested in one of my comments on this blog that he
– return postal voting back to its original form
– give the local constituency groups the right to deselect and choose their own representatives/candidates
I sincerely hope BJ will now allow the local parties to deselect and select their preferred candidate, or that he starts looking for suitable replacement candidates.
Following on from last nights debacle of less than 400 people determined to overturn the democratic vote of 17.4 million people I am not surprised the pro-eu people in the HoC appear to have gone off the idea of an election now.
I am pleased to hear that 21 people in your party have had the whip removed. If the whip is removed, surely that means they can’t vote on this pro-eu bill, please can you confirm if I have understood correctly?
Am I right in thinking this rogue parliament cannot force BJ to go to Brussels and request yet another (never-ending) extension of remaining in the EU with its associated costs?
Also, as the government is now a minority does that not mean an election is on the horizon anyway?
September 4, 2019
J Bush, I think you misunderstand the withdrawal of the whip – it means an MP cannot vote AS A PARTY REPRESENTATIVE, but still can as an Independent.
I stand to be corrected.
September 4, 2019
Removal of the whip means they cannot stand as a Conservative candidate at the next GE, unless the whip is restored. While MPs they will either sit as independents or join another party.
September 4, 2019
While we are at it, a review of the role played by the Electoral Commission post Brexit wouldn’t go amiss, either.
Remainers opened the door: they can all step through it, no sacred cows.
September 4, 2019
I sincerely hope Boris will now INSIST, as far as he legally can do, that local parties to deselect and select their sensible pro Brexit real Conservative candidates to replace the traitors. Even the ones that did support the government this time. We certainly do not want such people undermining the next government and the wishes of the people.
September 4, 2019
I would like the Government to launch a second Pride’s Purge.
September 4, 2019
@formula57
I really like the sound of that – which will surely make for a small Parliament left behind – but who will play the part of Pride?
September 4, 2019
It doesn’t matter what I want the government to do, or what comments I may offer here to be ignored, like this one:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/09/02/austerity-economics-comes-directly-from-eu-policy-and-the-maastricht-requirements/#comment-1050980
pointing out that the new Irish border proposal from Lord Empey is much the same as the proposal I have been making for more than eighteen months, or what letters I write to the papers here or in Ireland or to my MP or other MPs.
The fact is that those running the Tory party have never truly accepted the result of the 2016 referendum any more than those running the Labour party or the Liberal Democrats or the SNP, they have just loudly pretended to accept the result while constantly working away to undermine it over time – and all this at massive public expense, and cost to our international reputation as well as to our national democracy.
If there is a general election then I will vote for the Brexit party candidate; I will do that whether the Tory candidate is the known liar cheat hypocrite and traitor Theresa May, or some other sneaky untrustworthy Tory; and if the Liberal Democrats take the seat then so be it, at least we know where we are with that bunch.
September 4, 2019
@Denis Cooper:
Maybe Lord Empey’s proposal bears some resemblance to this one:
“Weiler, Joseph H.H., Sarmiento, Daniel; Faull, Jonathan: An Offer the EU and UK Cannot Refuse: A Proposal on How to Avoid a No-Deal Brexit”, a recent proposal by an independent expert group.
I haven’t seen any reaction by the EU and assume that the UK has not made proposals along those lines (yet).
September 4, 2019
As JR has chosen to vaporise the original comment, including the link to the recent article in the Irish Times, entitled:
“Brexit: UUP suggests proposals to replace Irish backstop”
nobody on here will ever know what he proposed …
September 4, 2019
denis – you think you know where you are with the Libdems? Personally I haven’t a clue as to what they would put before Parliament.
September 4, 2019
We know that their primary loyalty is to the EU.
September 4, 2019
Denis, same sentiments here.
I shall vote for the Brexit Party too.
September 4, 2019
Denis, what about standing as a Brexit Party candidate?
September 4, 2019
The Brexit Party has already chosen a candidate for Maidenhead:
https://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/gallery/maidenhead/148395/brexit-party-announces-its-maidenhead-constituency-candidate.html
and I shall vote for her.
I was the UKIP candidate in 2001, once was enough …
September 4, 2019
My MP is Jacob Rees Mogg and I won’t vote for him as he represents a Party of proven liars and people who have done so for decades. Look at Mays majority remoaner Ministers, Camerons remoaner Ministers. The Party is mostly Liberal Democrats which is why they are leaving to join it!
Brexit Party is the only way forward after the swamp is drained!
September 4, 2019
A second referendum could easily deliver us to the same position: 52% of the country wanting to Leave with 70% of MPs wanting to stay. Deadlock again.
Of course, if 52% voted to Remain in the second referendum it would be delivered. So Leave is disadvantaged by a second referendum.
What is needed is a general election. MPs to put foremost in their campaigns their position on the EU.
Uncontrolled mass immigration caused this. The policy was intended to abolish our country and our national identity by stealth. They did this – to an enfranchised population – too early and too fast.
This is what it looks like when an attempt is made to abolish a country.
This is Remaining in the EU.
Naff isn’t it.
September 4, 2019
Um – immigration is controlled. I can confirm this. I arrived at Heathrow the other day and – after a 24 hour journey with my kids – had to wait an hour and a half to have my passport checked. I travel a lot and never have such difficulty getting into any country as I do getting into Little Britain.
September 4, 2019
Andy.
My experiences of London airports has been good recently, especially with the latest automated gates.
I’m assuming you have modern passports that are machine readable?
Sounds like you have never arrived at JFK airport in New York or Cancun in Mexico or some Far East and Middle East airports.
Queues for passport control can be hours even for their locals.
September 4, 2019
627000 gross immigration 2018 so not exactly controlled. (I have never had to wait that long to have my passport checked.)
September 4, 2019
Andy
Just think once we are out of the EU you will no longer have to queue at EU passport control with all the inherent delays, you can pop straight through British Passports . Great huh
September 4, 2019
Andy, could it be I am always landing late in the evening (after 22:00) but my waits at LHR or LGW automatic gates have always been less (sometimes much less) than 15 mn.
September 4, 2019
Andy, I thought you didn’t travel because of global warming. What is the point in driving an electric car if you are taking long haul flights?
September 5, 2019
Energy- and pollution-wise speaking, short haul flights are worse than long haul flights as, computed over the whole flight, a higher proportion of exhausts are produced when taking off. Ask LL, he will explain (or maybe not).
September 5, 2019
Andy … take a hint simply don’t return.
September 4, 2019
All of the MPs are saying they know and respect the leave vote other than the SNP, so the question is leave with the withdrawal agreement on offer from the EU or leave with no deal if necessary. Remain already lost.
September 4, 2019
“A second referendum could easily deliver us to the same position: 52% of the country wanting to Leave with 70% of MPs wanting to stay. Deadlock again.”
In the referendum, 52% of the country wanted to Leave with a deal, and they had been promised that it would be the easiest deal in the world, and that the UK holds all the cards.
The majority of MPs today are specifically objecting to a no-deal Brexit.
There’s no deadlock or contradiction here. I’m not saying that it’s not a difficult issue to resolve, all I’m pointing out is that you can’t simply claim that the MPs are going against their constitutents, as it’s not a like-for-like comparison.
September 4, 2019
General election please.
Let’s have those MPs standing on their EU position with skin in the game. Deals with other nations outside the EU were mentioned in the referendum and we cannot make those if we make a deal with the EU of the type being discussed – the WA for example.
September 4, 2019
But about three-quarters of immigration has not been from the European Union, and the UK has, and always did have, sovereign control over that.
There is NO European Union policy on immigration. It is not covered by any treaty.
Our – we Europeans – own movements around the European Union are a different matter.
September 4, 2019
I know.
Give some ground then.
Reduce immigration to the tens of thousands and I’ll sign up to Remain.
September 4, 2019
PS. Any member country of the EU effectively controls the whole Union’s immigration policy every time it makes a migrant from outside the EU a citizen.
September 4, 2019
Anon, Touché!
September 4, 2019
I’m confused, Sir John.
Parliament consistently rejected the WA due to the backstop, which placed the power to decide how and when we left the EU solely at the discretion of the EU. Am I correct that Parliament has now agreed that this state of affairs is acceptable, in which case, why is it now (and on what terms, if any) when it wasn’t before? Doesn’t it also provide a foolproof guarantee that the WA will be implemented, i.e. how can they reject one without the other?
Have I missed something?
September 4, 2019
The point you miss is that Parliament doesn’t want the WA because they want to stay in the EU. Giving the EU the sole right to set the leaving date (subject to a vote in Parliament) achieves this. If the EU proposes a 5 year delay this Parliament will approve it. And so on until they can organise a second referendum.
September 4, 2019
We can use the Vienna convention of treaties, to cancel that arrangement. On the basis it is unreasonable.
September 4, 2019
The issue can be easily stated. A majority of the UK electorate wants to leave the EU, but a majority of current MPs doesn’t want to leave the EU. The only way to resolve this is via a General Election. It is to many people a surprise (to put it mildly) that the Conservative Party has at this juncture so many MPs who are no longer Conservative, the Liberal Democrat Party has so many MPs who are neither liberal or democratic, the Labour Party is controlled by Marxists, and the SNP continues with their unique obsessions. The Augean Stables do indeed need to be cleaned out, and the UK electorate will do this with relish.
September 4, 2019
Of course the rebels should lose the whip. If they are allowed to run again for Parliament you would have fully 10% of the Conservative parliamentary prepared to vote against the PM for the next five years knowing they will suffer no consequences.
September 4, 2019
“Now one of those is doing everything to prevent it”
Nonsense on stilts. The question has never been IF we Leave, but HOW we Leave. Had a so called “Remain Parliament” really wanted to stop Brexit then they would have voted down the Act that authorised the triggering of our A50 letter.
As for one MP crossing the Floor, big deal, your own party has, or is likely to, now remove the whip (and quite possibly deselecting them) from 21 of its own for doing no more than what the eurosceptics have been doing since the Premiership of Sir John Major, you lot were once called the “rebels”, and a lot worse, remember. So even without one MP crossing the floor Boris has scuppered his own majority!
What an unfettered omni-shambles, call an election, oh hang on, Boris is likely to even loose that FTPA vote too…
September 4, 2019
OT; Sir John, if your other article published (by mistake?) today should ever reappear could you make clear that it had been previously published and commented on, or simply delete the comments already made?
September 4, 2019
‘Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.’
Oliver Cromwell April 20th 1653.
350 years and nothing’s changed.
September 5, 2019
@Oggy; Indeed, someone needs to print that comment off and hand it into No.10 Downing Street, or at least the Chief Whip…
September 4, 2019
It does seem that we are very close to the point where we can say definitively that it isn’t possible to leave the EU with a friendly deal, allowing eg an independent trade policy in the future. The EU sees any attempt by a member state to leave as an existential threat, and will insist on punitive terms involving a long period as a non-voting EU member, with pre -commitments never to attempt to leave the customs union or much of the single market, except by unilateral permission of the EU. Mr Juncker was clear about this at the beginning saying “brexit cannot be a success”. Maybe a different negotiating strategy at a much earlier stage would have produced a better result. But Conservative MPs decided to leave hapless Mrs May in office for 2 years after it became plain just how useless she was.
This now needs to be explained clearly to the public. One way or the other I think we might end up with another referendum with WTO Brexit vs remain.
September 4, 2019
Last nights vote was a victory for decency. Proud of my MP John Benyon. It’s a shame 301 MPs, many of whom shared his opinions did not follow suit. Your oft quoted 82% figure is meaningless. You can equally truthfully say 54% of the electorate voted for parties expressly ruling out no deal at the last election. Parliament is reflecting this will of the people.
September 4, 2019
Yesterday in his statement on the G7 summit Boris Johnson said:
http://bit.ly/2MTgw5O
“So at the G7, I made the case for free trade as an engine of prosperity and progress that has lifted billions out of poverty, yet the reality is that trade, as a share of the world economy, has been stagnant for the last decade.”
But the reality is also that even if international trade has been stagnant for the last decade the world economy has not been stagnant for that period, on the contrary world GDP has risen year after after year at healthy rates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product
Perhaps one day the Tory party will wake up and recognise that even if free trade was a significant engine of prosperity and progress in the past we seem to have now reached a point of diminishing returns, and stop grossly overstating the importance of special trade deals to our economy – whether that be the EU Single Market arrangement or some new trade deal with the USA.
September 4, 2019
JR: “How do you want the government to proceed”
Out on October 31.
Concede, Theresa May had no lawful authority to extend the leave date. and advise the EU they are lucky we did not leave on 29 March.
I’m sick of this clown car brigade in Parliament.
September 4, 2019
Good morning Sir
What a night, or as my predictive text says what a nightmare
Clearly any party in government only works when those that sign up for its manifesto keep to their promise to the electorate. Those that find they can no longer support that view must with any sence of duty and democracy seek a mandate from their electorate or else they will be rightly seen as hypocritical liars
Reluctantly after last night’s fight to throw any semblance of respect and democracy that the HoC had in the bin, there has to be a GE. It is a fight that Parliament has picked to have with the People, it should now be the people that decides how we are Governed.
I would even suggest that as things have got to get nastier before they get better, it will need the government itself to call for a no confidence vote in itself, to push its opposition into a corner. Even if that means a short term opposition rule as horrific as that would be. At this moment in time the government can’t call an election without massive preconditions to get the 66%. By surrendering to the preconditions the Conservatives will be seen to be weak not a good place to be going forward.
It has to be seen by the people that only a Conservative Goverment believes in democracy, difficult – given last nights nights antics
September 4, 2019
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro’ many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor’s wages.
The EU stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour’s station;
But EU gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
September 4, 2019
Very good APL 🙂
September 4, 2019
Why would a Tory MP align themselves with an extremist party like Marxist Labour? Labour couldn’t care less about the EU. Their only aim is to get into No 10 and impose a Marxist reconfiguration on this nation and its people. That will mean pain, suffering, loss and social dislocation. Is that what Tory rebels want?
Surely, it is now time for decisiveness. No more deliberation. Purge the party and return power to its members to determine its future and those who stand at the next GE.
September 4, 2019
The gloves should come off now no more messing around with these remoaners, they have nailed there colours to the Eu mast, what Mr Johnson should now do is flood the HOL with Brexiteers and play them at there own game
September 4, 2019
I’m free at the moment! The sofas look comfy.
September 4, 2019
I’ll volunteer.
September 6, 2019
oh yes, we already have ~800 Lords and Ladies. I therefore propose, Mick, that you pay the £300/day per person for the 100 extra ones recently proposed by the PM.
September 4, 2019
On the basis that your government has told us precisely zero about what they are seeking our relationship with the EU in terms of money, trade, legal s or the political declaration how the hell can we know what to do.
It is still full of people that voted for Theresa May’s rubbish now assuring us they want something different.
We don’t believe you.
September 4, 2019
No one can believe them. Time to consider our relationship as they have no legitimate right to rule anymore or tax us. They represent the EU!
September 4, 2019
I was surprised by how upset I was to read of the death of the Conservative Party today. What is it now , some sort of Trump tribute act with added Alf Garnett. A sad sad day when you think of all the decent men and and women who have been Conservatives and how the moderate sensible spirit of England has served us all.
The “people” have been telling pollsters for a year now that they would like to stay in the EU the referendum was clearly deeply flawed and for those who hate Europe to lecture us on accepting referendums is beyond parody . Yes Bunter will get his majority but on a low vote and only due to the malfunctioning system
I have known this was coming for some time but, now it has . All I can do , is do all I can to get rid of the truly disgraceful idiot Conservatuve soi disant , in our constituency.
That at least I can do , or help do at least
September 5, 2019
Conservatives are still 10 points ahead in various polls and the Boris is way ahead of the leaders of the opposition parties as best PM
September 6, 2019
Edward 2
That sounds really depressing and just underlines the low quality of our politicians and our limited choice
September 4, 2019
John,
Here’s my cunning plan.
Let’s get England out of the UK instead. If Wales wants to join us, we can call ourselves Wenglish!
September 4, 2019
The so called impartial speaker is beneath contempt there are no words to describe this odious little man. I hope Boris is plotting his downfall as we speak.
So finally the Tory EU quislings got their comeuppance – at last a PM with some backbone. We do not want or need their sort in Parliament.
We must have a GE now to clear out the rest of the remainer rabble.
September 4, 2019
Why bother with a GE? Just send in the tanks – that’s where you Brexiteers are taking us anyway.
September 4, 2019
We’ve always used the ballot box. It’s other people who smash the place up.
September 4, 2019
For goodness sake Andy, grow up!
September 4, 2019
I wish.
September 4, 2019
Oggy,
‘The so called impartial speaker is beneath contempt there are no words to describe this odious little man.’
Really?
I can think of plenty. Most of the ones I have in mind are quite appropriate and derived from Anglo-Saxon.
September 4, 2019
Exactly I felt sick listening to all the traitors talking complete drivel today. The speak too need to be kick out and have his totally undeserved huge pension cancelled.
September 4, 2019
I have predicted since Maastricht that the Conservative Party cannot be a ‘broad church’ over the issue of EU membership and that a choice will one day have to be made or disaster will ensue. This very sad Cassandra has been proved correct.
I respect those who believe the UK should remain an EU member, and would have respected any MP who stated that they could not support Mrs May’s actions to implement Leave. I view with huge contempt those who lied and achieved Cabinet position to undermine Leaving – it will be most ‘interesting’ to see whether those who have permanently lost the Whip will retire or attempt to follow Dr Lee across the floor.
I believe there must now be a General Election, but unless the Conservative Party clearly co-operates with The Brexit Party I predict the result will be disastrous for both country and Party.
September 4, 2019
“I have predicted since Maastricht that the Conservative Party cannot be a ‘broad church’ over the issue of EU membership and that a choice will one day have to be made or disaster will ensue.”
Exactly there is no halfway on Brexit we leave or we stay. We voted to leave if we stay the Conservatives are done for and rightly so.
September 4, 2019
If the speaker says the bill does not need a money resolution, do not budget for it based on this ruling.
September 4, 2019
But if you do not pay; we will be thrown out of the EU. And that is ………………….
September 4, 2019
Surely yesterday’s events were unconstitutional?
Surely Mr Bercow is acting unconstitutionally?
Who polices their conduct?
Who is there who can still march down the chamber and drag offenders by the short and curlies off to the Tower?
I wish.
September 4, 2019
If Corbyn is so keen to meet the people then invite them into the house and express their feelings to the anti democratic MPs. A bit of squatting would be nice to see.
September 4, 2019
Afraid too many MPs have lost their minds
They no longer represent the people
Time to close down Parliament and have a general election
If this bill passes we give complete control of our Country to the EU
Complete and utter madness
September 4, 2019
Amazing that Boris is still seen as the bad guy in all of this…
What can be done?
1. Force the Speaker to resign or get him out of the picture any way possible – He is the key traitor here…
2. Call an election before the bill comes into play
3. Ignore the bill as it didn’t follow convention, as it is not strictly legal, and do not allow Queen’s Consent on it.
Reply 1 and 2 require Commons majorities!
September 4, 2019
reply to reply….then surely if the PM says he cannot govern against no majority, he can call a GE? if the PM lose a vote surely he says I cannot govern any longer, go to the Queen and resign?
September 4, 2019
The speaker is supposed to be impartial, which is at least in part why they are not opposed at election time. Burcow is anything but impartial and consistently shows contempt for the democratically arrived-at decision of the people to leave the EU, so deserves no such concession.
Further, because of his blatant bias, he consistently brings the office of speaker into disrepute. The speaker’s panel should be able to advise the holder of that esteemed office and issue guidance, but I don’t think that man will take any notice such is his arrogance.
If a mechanism doesn’t presently exist to rid us of this lop-sided and turbulent popinjay, one must be found post haste, for he exercises an inordinate and extraordinary negative influence over this nation’s direction. If parliament is at odds with the people, it is he who exemplifies and promulgates that division most of all.
September 5, 2019
@JR
1. Force the Speaker to resign or get him out of the picture any way possible – He is the key traitor here…
2. Call an election before the bill comes into play
3. Ignore the bill as it didn’t follow convention, as it is not strictly legal, and do not allow Queen’s Consent on it.
Reply 1 and 2 require Commons majorities!
Can the Head of State remove him ?
September 4, 2019
So Prince Harry now defends his families use of many private jets and his rather vast carbon footprint on “grounds of safety” – while launching an ‘eco tourism’ project in Amsterdam. Private jets are rather less safe than commercial airlines statistically.
When in massive a hole (of deep hypocrisy) best to stop digging mate. Either you believe the generally alarmist and unscientific drivel you come out with and that “every choice, every footprint, every action makes a difference” as you said – or you are just a lying hypocrite who cake for himself and gruel for others.
It is quite simple to grasp this mate. Do as I say not as I do is not an attractive look for someone in such a privileged position as yourself- as Prince Charles has discovered.
September 4, 2019
who wants cake for himself and gruel for others.
September 4, 2019
Harry Antoinette would make a huge impact on opinion if he and his wife moved into a semi in an ordinary street.
September 4, 2019
The Conservative party should draw the obvious conclusion and rebrand itself as the Brexit party which is what is has become with the departure of its last sane members.
You might as well ditch Boris Johnson for Nigel Farage as a leader. He is a smarter campaigner.
A round of applause for Sir John Redwood of the Brexit party, please.
September 4, 2019
What is sane about being so fanatically in favour of retaining foreign rule that they destroy their own democracy, constitution, and economy, risking civil unrest?
September 4, 2019
Exactly – nothing.
September 4, 2019
Tabulazero, What is sane about wishing your country to be a colony of the EU empire?
September 4, 2019
I spy traitors.
Leaver MPs need to inform the EU that any advantage that this Remain parliament offers the EU that is contrary to the referendum result must be considered non binding pending a GE. If a Leave parliament is returned, any such advantages conferred will be unilaterally revoked by the UK in line with the referendum result.
September 6, 2019
EdwardM
It does not work like that
September 4, 2019
The way forward now should be a GE. Parliamentary processes as normally understood have broken down. The government has no majority. The proposed bill would put control back in the hands of the EU. This is an utterly unacceptable state of affairs. The civil war of words could easily take a turn for the worse if this Bill is passed into law.
September 4, 2019
Quite. Remain is playing with fire.
September 4, 2019
We should at least take heart from the obvious fear of Corbyn and the Neo-Marxists at the prospect of an election now that one is looming into view.
September 4, 2019
I am surprised at the actions of the Northern Labour MPs. Their votes are the tipping point of how things turn out. The way they are going they will be exterminated by TBP at a GE.
September 4, 2019
Sad to say Brexit looks finally dead as predicted by 2 people I most respect my wife and Rod Liddell. We should make the most of resuming our current membership terms (if actually allowed) before we move into the Euro and Shengen area, and common taxation and banking union when the EU further strengthens qualified majority voting.
September 4, 2019
If this proves true. I will NEVER stop reminding Remainers of the consequences of their actions. Plus I want a spotlight on everything the EU is up to.
September 4, 2019
Indeed. It always seemed to me that the WA was a holding arrangement which would allow a future govt to return to the EU once it became clear, as it surely would, that with the constraints of the WA Inc in particular the backstop, any kind of meaningful brexit is impossible. But such a return under those circs would mean joining the euro and accepting all the liabilities and loss of democratic sovereignty that involves.
Which is why I have always favoured either remain or WTO brexit over the May WA.
September 5, 2019
Richard 1
“But such a return under those circs would mean joining the euro”
Well I will have my incomes either paid in, or converted to, Swiss francs or US dollars.
Might even convert my savings to bullion and stash them somewhere.
I’ll wipe my arse on that abomination they call the euro.
September 4, 2019
MPC, I’m not surrendering!
September 4, 2019
Sir John you ask ‘How do you want the government to proceed?’
It would appear what we the electorate think (until the next GE) has absolutely no value to the rotten treacherous shower of MP’s we have at the moment.
We the electorate gave our opinion in 2016 and our answer will still be the same, the result of the referendum has yet to be honoured.
September 4, 2019
Sir JR
Very interesting analyses , yes both main parties voted for Brexit , but neither Parliament nor the voters, were asked to vote for Brexit and no deal.
The imagination that the government is undertaking serious negotiations in Brussels for the moment, only seems to be the view of the government but not Brussels nor the Finnish chairmanship of the EU.
Accusing Parliament of changing procedures after what the government has been doing with the amount of days in session, seems a bit over the top.
We have a clear decision to leave but it has to be done in an orderly fashion for the benefit of the country and its citizens
September 4, 2019
This means the withdrawal agreement which Mr Redwood and his friends have refused to vote for. Apparently they do not like reality Brexit.
September 4, 2019
But we’ve effectively got hard Remain.
Naff, isn’t it.
September 4, 2019
Then that is the question the public should be asked.
“yes both main parties voted for Brexit , but neither Parliament nor the voters, were asked to vote for Brexit and no deal.”
Withdrawal agreement Brexit as offered
NO Deal authority to the Prime Minister if no other deal is agreed.
September 4, 2019
bill brown
The EU offered one deal and made it clear that this was all they would accept
This was offered to parliament and made clear that a failure to accept it meant we would leave with No Deal. Parliament voted 3 times to reject the WA , so yes parliament voted for no deal
The EU politburo ( ie they didn’t ask any country head of the 27 members) have stated that they will not move their position , so you are right here are no negotiations to be had. So we leave on 31st October , go WTO and then try again for an FTA when the EU starts to feel the pinch
Its what happens when you let unelected bureaucrats with no skin in the game do your negotiating
September 4, 2019
A quick cursory look on EU documents shows that there were meetings of the 27(28) heads of States with the ‘EU Politburo’ on 23/02/’18, 17-18/10/’18, 10/04/’19, 09/05/’19, 28/05/’19. I give you that all of those meetings (and those I must have missed) might not have been entirely devoted to Brexit but is this such an interesting topics for them after all?
September 5, 2019
Libertarian,
This is about as naïve as it comes (your idea that the EU will feel the pinch more than us), trying to negotiate an agreement after we have left will just put us in an even worse position. What proportion of EU exports go to the UK and what proportion of UK exports go to the EU?
I am still waiting for an apology
September 5, 2019
Don’t blame the UK bill.
It is the EU that has refused to begin negotiations about trade and other related matters until after we have left
September 6, 2019
Oh come on Edward2, that’s not a new thing.
This procedure (maybe not given in too many details) was appearing in the Lisbon Treaty ($2, “A MS which decides to withdraw shall notify the ECouncil of its intention. In the lights of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Art. 218(3) … It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the EParliament”.
The main point is a Trade Agreement (if any) only comes after the UK will have left.
So I guess all in the VoteLeave and LeaveEU superstructures must have known about it and similarly all prospective Leave voters should/could have known before voting.
So there is no reason to be surprised. Or are you? If you are, it is some kind of ‘dereliction of duty’, not having informed yourself properly before voting.
But I am sure you knew all that.
September 4, 2019
Bill Brown, Since we voted to Leave, and the EU refuses to negotiate a trade deal, the only option left which complies with our Leave decision is a WTO Brexit.
September 4, 2019
NickC
According to Boris, we are still negotiating, or did I misunderstand that?
September 5, 2019
Bill, You misunderstood. Boris is trying to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. The EU have refused to negotiate that too.
September 4, 2019
The chaos is never-ending. The Speaker and Remainer MPs dream up new procedures and ignore convention. The govt has lost all authority.
I suggest now would be a good time for Boris to withdraw his current prorogation and seek the Queen’s agreement to a new prorogation to Nov 1st.
In a GE – if the Opposition allow one, I will vote Brexit Party. That risks an Armageddon Coalition, but it is one I will take. I have already taken steps to mitigate this outcome, and will continue to do so.
A pox on both your houses.
September 4, 2019
The Commons are acting illegally as is Bercow. May facilitated that illegality last time so this very poor Parliament has been taught the wrong lesson. The ‘Bill’ must be trashed so that every future Parliament understand a smattering of Constitutional Law.
The Commons will not vote off an election – sit tight, no legislation needed for a Clean Brexit 31st Oct.
Just what we want!
All the rebels and Bercow must NEVER regain the Tory whip!
September 4, 2019
The proposed bill today is hugely dangerous and very damaging to the UK. I assume Boris and Cummings have a plan to kill it off or to get round it in some way and still deliver a real Brexit. The real danger is not Brexit but Corbyn/SNP and the “Conservative” Traitors trying to put him in power.
What an appalling mess Theresa May left behind after her dreadful “leadership”. Hopefully she will retire at the election and certainly not be elevated to the Lords. It is far too full of wet, leftie dopes already.
September 4, 2019
We have a massive realignment in politics at last. The traitors are exposed and will soon be out of work.
Already the Brexit Party is enjoying a surge in support. The Tory Party has no God given right to exist and it is looking likely it will disappear without trace. The BP is ready and able.
September 4, 2019
Nonsense. Misleading, Corbynite nonsense. The Tory party – 301 of them, if you can be bothered to count – voted against the Remainiac coup. Why do you then tout Farage? I’ll tell you why: to split the Brexit / Conservative vote. You’re transparent.
September 4, 2019
No, I was a lifelong Tory until Cameron came along. He waz an outright liar together with his partner Gideon.
I voted first for UKIP and now the BP.
Today Stephen Barclay replies to Johns questions on the WA and he defends it so no doubt Boris Intends to field a watered down version of it.
Farage will prevent this.
September 6, 2019
YouGov, 1-3/09/2019: Con 35%, Lab 25%, LibD 16%, TBP 11%, GP 7%, others 6%.
Whoah, what a massive realignment, in your dream, maybe?
September 4, 2019
All the BP is going to do – If it does manage to hang onto 12% or so of the vote – is put Corbyn in power.
September 4, 2019
Brexit has revealed the deficit in our Parliamentary democracy. MPs do not reflect the Brexit vote in the country and they have thwarted the decision of the people for three years now. Last night they revealed that they have every intention of denying Brexit forever. This is intolerable. If we cannot trust our MPs to find a way to carry out their instruction to leave the EU, then the conclusion is not that we come to a different decision but that we choose a different bunch of MPs.
I commend the Prime Minister and his loyal Ministers and honourable MPs like yourself, Sir John. The country is crying out for firm, determined and decisive leadership. I pray that we have at last found it and it is strengthened by a decisive victory in a general election.
September 4, 2019
As always a good article by JR setting out the current situation.
The Remain side are trampling over our constitution and pushing through controversial legislation with little debate and against manifesto promises. It is then quite reasonable that the government should respond with all tactics open to it, like not recommending Queen’s consent, and delaying via amendments the passage of the motion to curtail usual procedures in the HoL.
Giving power to decide our country’s future to a foreign body (the EU) is an utter act of treachery, and in contravention of the result of the referendum – which was for the return of sovereignty not the continued abrogation of it to the EU.
Hence it is proper to remove the Tory whip from MPs who voted for the Letwin motion, otherwise the Conservative party would be accepting of traitors.
Things could get messy, but surrendering to Remain MPs is not an option. Leave has right on its side.
September 4, 2019
If today’s vote is again won by the Remoaners, Boris should accept the instruction and request a delay. This would be granted subject to approval by all EU members. Then the UK veto could be applied.
Simple Sergei!
September 4, 2019
I believe the HoL is going to talk out out of time but if not I’m sure that’s the plan. All is not lost yet.
September 4, 2019
Perfect!
September 4, 2019
No! Because this gives Farage the chance to squeal “Betrayal”. Foolish advice.
September 4, 2019
I imagine there is a secret protocol agreed already that if and when Boris is obliged to ask for an extension, the EU will say fine conditional on a referendum. I think the bill says he has to accept any terms automatically doesn’t it?!
September 4, 2019
Nigel, I don’t believe the UK can veto any more.
September 4, 2019
Leave no deal immediately.
Block the bill in the lord’s.
Do a deal with the Brexit party, let them have seats held by remainer conservatives.
Call an election.
September 4, 2019
Leave the EU as soon as we can – do we have to wait to 31st October?
and/or prorogue Parliament now – they are unfit to represent us and they are acting in a very dangerous way.
How is it that the Speaker seemingly has so much more power than a PM?? That cannot be right. So what mechanisms can the PM use to stop this?
Basically, I want this stopped in its tracks now before much worse happens and it comes to blows – we already have mob rule starting on the streets.
The Prime Minister must do what is required to call a General Election. This is now Parliament versus the People and we need to be given back OUR powers so we can use them. This current Parliment is now a rouge mob of anti-democrats they must be dismissed immediately.
On last night’s vote and the sacking of the infamous 21, I would only say ‘good’, that is the start of the cleanout. Give power back to local associations to have a representative of their choosing.
Finally, the Conservative Party should now work with their real Friends, the majority of right minded British people (both those who voted to leave and those who voted remain but what democracy respected). And, also the Brexit Party, and those in Labour who also respect democracy.
This is ‘do or die’ now and Boris must pull out all the stops and land a winning blow on this lot of traitors and communists as soon as possible, it has gone on for quite long enough.
September 4, 2019
I think the deal with the Brexit Party should be to allow them a free run or even assist them in constituencies where the Conservatives have little chance such as in the Labour Leave areas. These areas will never vote for Boris or the Conservatives but they may vote for TBP as the European election showed. The remainer conservative seats should have new candidates who believe in the UK leaving the EU. If a common sense pact was used earlier there would have been two more Brexit voting MPs in the HOC.
September 4, 2019
There’s a saying – “You can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”.
Boris Johnson needs to stand firm like his hero Churchill and refuse to ask for an extension even if an act of parliament demands it.
This is the beauty of the opposition not forcing a General Election before we leave. Boris Johnson is still in charge.
September 4, 2019
There does seem to be few shells left in the leaver arsenal. There will not be a general election, a second referendum only will be enacted if remain wins and the government has no majority.
I am truly saddened that Parliamentarians and other vested interests have shown the people are to be ignored.
Civil war would be the next step but the downtrodden leavers are too busy surviving to disrupt their lives. That is why we don’t March and join rent a mobs. Maybe we should just down tools. It works for the overpaid train drivers and indeed St Greta
September 4, 2019
The one certainty about the next General Election is that every party that publishes a manifesto will publish a declaration of lies! Paper is too precious a commodity to be wasted in such an offensive manner.
My understanding is that The Brexit Party did not produce a manifesto for the recent European Union election. I hope that party doesn’t bother for the next General Election because it’s unnecessary. The farce of yesterday ensures a dramatic increase in its vote at the next pantomime election.
September 4, 2019
A Party manifesto is wasted in the EU elections. Those elected as MEPs can never get anything done anyway. They are there in the EU parliament as nodding dogs are in the rear window of a car.
September 4, 2019
I think the Government should use any parliamentary device or strategy to ensure that we leave the e.u., no matter how devious and clever. If it was good enough for Mr Blair to take us to war in the teeth of parliamentary opposition, then it is right to do it now, when you have a democratic mandate and the law on your side.
September 4, 2019
“No matter how devious”
How about scrapping Parliament and installing El Presidente Boris as Devine Leader?
Is that devious enough for you because that is not far from where we’re at.
September 4, 2019
Andy, If you get your way and the EU empire remains our government, then the HoC and the HoL can be scrapped anyway – they will be pointless.
September 4, 2019
Is that the best you can do – it’s not very devious and besides the position has already been taken by Bercow.
September 4, 2019
I’m all for scrapping Parliament.
If Brussels is really in charge then we don’t need two governments.
September 4, 2019
Absolutely. To make good on all the pledges – the referendum, the 2017 manifestos, the promises of May and the pledges of the current PM, we must use all constitutional power to face the Remainiacs down.
September 4, 2019
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away” (2 Timothy 3:5).
Increasing lawlessness is another feature of this time. What is happening in Parliament is diabolical and destructive – and a terminal judgement!
We are in the last days: and the King is coming! (Psalm 2, etc)
September 4, 2019
How should the government proceed?
1. Only go for an election if Farage agrees some workable pact eg BP fights in Labour and Lib Dem seats, especially those that voted leave in 2016.
2. If the backbench bill is passed, either deny royal consent, or refuse to obey the injunction re Oct 19.
3. If an election is called for Oct 15, postone polling day until November.
4. If a vote of no confidence is tabled and won by the opposition(and re-iterated by a second vote 14 days later), Boris must NOT resign and NOT recommend the Queen send for Corbyn or A.N. Other, rather he must stay on, set the GE date for November, and let Brexit take effect by default.
5. Include a Brexit ‘sledgehammer’ in the Queen’s Speech so that the 5 parliamentary days allocated to the opposition are dominated by leaving with no-deal. This will force Corbyn to table a no-confidence vote(through voting the Queen’s Speech down), and the subsequent 14 days following would terminate in November. Check mate!
September 4, 2019
Good morning.
Well, well, well it looks like our unwritten constitution is being torn apart, all for the sake of Remaining in a political project that has impoverished much of the people it claims to represent.
My views on another general election are well know here. What is important is that the Conservative Government seek an alliance with the BP. If not, I will support the BP and hope that the Conservatives lose. I do not trust our PM, Alexander Johnson MP.
Should those conservatives (sic) have the whip removed ? Well of course they should ! If any of us was working for a company and we acted in such a manner that harmed said concern we would be dismissed. These people have acted against the government, their party, party members, the manifesto that they were voted in on and the nation. Such treachery deserves such sanction.
One final point. It is time that, as we have fixed term parliaments, we must also have fixed term PM’s, MP’s and especially, Speakers of the House. The current incumbent has, in my view, been a national disgrace.
September 4, 2019
Well this is spiteful. You have allowed everybody’s comments except mine.
You really do not like being told the truth.
September 4, 2019
Whatever the Government decide to do, Bercow is the problem. Boris needs to get on the phone TODAY to Nigel Farage and form a pact. Nigel will only agree if Boris agrees to go for no deal which is the only option now. Then call a general election but find a way without needing the consent of treacherous MPs. Pride comes before a fall. If the Tories and the Brexit Party get together, they will walk it.
September 4, 2019
Brexit is dead!
And our Country with it.
September 4, 2019
This afternoon Lord Carrington plans to:
“… ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will ensure that food imports after Brexit meet the same animal welfare, environmental and food safety standards as those required of food from British farmers”.
He might just as well:
“… ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will ensure that the other EU member states will continue to apply all EU laws relating to animal welfare, environmental and food safety standards after the UK has left the EU, in the same way as they apply them now while the UK is still in the EU.”
Or does he think that some of those EU governments would decide that as the UK was no longer in the EU it would be perfectly OK to send across goods which could not legally be produced, imported, traded or sold within the EU?
Is that the low opinion this europhile he has of our European neighbours?
Maybe he should write around to their embassies and ask them directly whether their governments intend to still comply with EU law after the UK has left the EU, or instead they will turn a blind eye to infractions if they only concern exports to the UK.
But I don’t suppose he will get anything that reply from the government spokesman in the Lords this afternoon, it will just be more feeble and unconvincing waffle carefully leaving open the possibility that we will need to start intercepting and checking imports from the EU which we have been just nodding through for the past quarter of a century.
September 4, 2019
This is from last August:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/08/01/project-fear-from-the-eu-is-just-absurd/#comment-951691
“Well, I’m getting fed up with all this nonsense, thanks a lot bloody Therolly, and so I’ve dropped a line to the Dutch Ambassador in London, as follows:
“Dear Ambassador
In the light of various media reports circulating in the UK, I would be obliged if you could clarify:
In the event that the UK left the EU without any agreed deal, would it be the policy of the Netherlands government to immediately ban all exports of food to the UK?
Would the policy of the Netherlands government in that regard be determined by any trade sanctions policy of the EU as a whole?
If the policy did not involve a complete blockade, as some suggest, would all the food exported to the UK still meet the high standards required by the EU Single Market, of which the Netherlands would of course still be a part, or would Dutch suppliers be permitted to send sub-standard and possibly hazardous produce to the UK once it was a third country outside of the EU and its Single Market?
Thanking you for your assistance in this matter.
Yours etc”
September 4, 2019
Those sickening traitors who bleat about parliamentary sovereignty have been giving it away to Brussels for half a century.
They also bleat about a coup. How is ignoring an act of direct democracy …17.5 million wanting to leave…. not an attempted coup?
When will they be deemed to have broken the law?
They are certainly trying to “ steal the Common from the goose.”
September 4, 2019
Leave the EU as soon as we can – do we have to wait to 31st October?
and/or prorogue Parliament now – they are unfit to represent us and they are acting in a very dangerous way.
How is it that the Speaker seemingly has so much more power than a PM?? That cannot be right. So what mechanisms can the PM use to stop this?
Basically, stop this in its tracks now before much worse happens and it comes to blows – we already have mob rising on the streets.
The Prime Minister must do what is required to call a General Election. This is now Parliament versus the People and we need to be given back OUR powers so we can use them. This current Parliment has no mandate and should be dismissed immediately.
On last night’s vote and the sacking of the infamous 21, I would only say ‘good’, that is the start of the cleanout. Give power back to local associations to have a representative of their choosing.
Finally, the Conservative Party should now work with their real Friends, the majority of right minded British people (both those who voted to leave and those who voted remain but wand democracy respected). And, also the Brexit Party, and those in Labour who also respect democracy.
This is ‘do or die’ now and Boris must pull out all the stops and land a winning blow, it has gone on for quite long enough.
September 4, 2019
Things seem to have progressed to the next logical step. First, Parliament
objected to the result of the referendum, now it seems that it does not
mean to have a general election. A Fixed-term Parliaments Act
may be in place today, but, come 2022, what is to stop Parliament passing
yet another piece of lightning legislation to delay the ballot indefinitely?
September 4, 2019
Even with these Tory traitors, that insane bill would have been voted in:
Guto Bebb
Richard Benyon
Steve Brine
Alistair Burt
Greg Clark
Kenneth Clarke
David Gauke
Justine Greening
Dominic Grieve
Sam Gyimah
Philip Hammond
Stephen Hammond
Richard Harrington
Margot James
Sir Oliver Letwin
Anne Milton
Caroline Nokes
Antoinette Sandbach
Sir Nicholas Soames
Rory Stewart
Ed Vaizey … but why wasn’t the Speaker officially cautioned by the PM
September 4, 2019
Bryan Harris
I wold suggest you look up the word and definition for traitor , before using it in this context?
September 6, 2019
Bill – I don’t need any advice from you on the definition of this word and how it applies to these tories ..thanks
September 4, 2019
John, is it possible for Boris to write to the EU and tell them we are leaving TODAY or is that too simplistic? Alternatively could the Government bring prorogation of Parliament forward? The opposition and 21 Tory MPs are playing dirty – so must Boris.
September 4, 2019
Why not, there is no legal impediment that I can see. In the EU Council decision October 31 is named as the LATEST date for the Article 50 extension to end, there is nothing to say that the UK could not unilaterally decide to leave earlier.
September 4, 2019
agreed
September 4, 2019
Boris should refuse to advise Royal Assent to this traitors’ bill coming today. He should ignore its demands. Offer a GE but set the date in November. Refuse to resign (to prevent an interim PM). Most importantly, Conservatives need to accept that Farage is how we got to leave the hated EU. So it is ESSENTIAL to now have an electoral pact with The Brexit Party, to oust the 21 tory remainers (and possibly dead cert losers like Rudd), but to let the Brexit Party tear into the labour leave vote – tories stand aside in critical seats where it is likely. Brexit Party will agree to leave key tory marginals alone.
If you get this part wrong and try going it alone, you will fail. Corbyn will win.
September 4, 2019
There are no more constitutional norms – this is remainer minority against the people’s majority decision. MPs derserting ranks, against their manifesto pledges, speaker completely on the side of remain, opposition swivelling on their own manifesto pledges.
So as Boris has the keys to No. 10 , hang on to them, wait it out for no-deal and go to the country once we leave in November. Then destroy the marxists and tory traitors at the ballot box.
September 4, 2019
The MP’s from whom the whip has been removed, if allowed to stand again, would continue to do everything in their power to prevent us leaving the EU. They are irreconcilable. The most dishonest statement I believe I have ever heard is from so many Conservative MP’s, that they voted to leave the EU when voting for Mrs May’s ‘deal’, which had nothing to do with leaving and everything to do with rejoining.
An election now seems inevitable and I would hope that some accommodation can be made with TBP as it has the potential to cause massive damage to Labour.
September 4, 2019
What would I like? ALL sides to stop playing games and accept some compromise! At most only one can win and whoever done will have to cause massive divisions to do so.
I do realise this will not happen. Sadly.
September 4, 2019
John
I believe that Boris is following the only route open to him that will ensure a clean no strings attached Brexit.
He is absolutely right in following this route and must not deviate from the goal of leaving the Eu completely.
I would strongly advise an accord with the Brexit Party as soon as possible as in my opinion this is certain to lead to a landslide win in the inevitable upcoming GE.
Please keep up the excellent work.
September 4, 2019
General Election. Collusion with Farage. No deal Brexit. Curtailment of the King John powers currently enjoyed by Parliament.
Brecht’s poem, Die Losung appears to sum up the situation. (When I first read the poem, I thought that could never happen here, how wrong was I?).
September 4, 2019
Brexit Party must form an alliance with Conservatives for any future scenario – it is an unbeatable combination and total suicide for Conservatives if they do not realise this.
You might as well vote Labour, without an alliance to cancel the split vote.
September 4, 2019
“How do you want us to proceed?” – – would it really matter what we, the voters want? – it doesn’t seem to have been any concern previously.
September 4, 2019
I also would have thought our host had a pretty clear view of our desire.
September 4, 2019
The Government should be just as ruthless as its opponents and use every trick to ensure the UK leaves on the 31 October.
Its opponents are fanatics but dealing with those who are Tories is secondary to getting out of the EU. Certainly they should not be spared if this helps the object of leaving, but this should be a secondary issue. Once we are out of the EU, especially if the disruption involved is far less than remainers expect, the views held now on leaving the EU will matter far less.
An election now is a last resort only to be used if the remainers succeed in blocking Brexit. It still seems possible that their attempts will fail, if the government is cunning and ruthless enough.
September 4, 2019
The New World Order has been stuffing our political parties, media, judiciary and education with pro-EU people since the demise of Margaret Thatcher. Yes, Boris Johnson has sacked the rebels but how do you stop another batch of rebels replacing them? Our whole system needs changing. That’s why I’ll be voting for the Brexit Party.
A pact with The Brexit Party is essential for Boris Johnson to have a chance of making a success of us leaving the EU.
September 4, 2019
I believe you are absolutely right about the NWO aka the deep state, and that is why the battle is so fierce. They have huge influence and finance behind them. It is exactly what President Trump is up against in the USA, but he is winning, and when the swamp is finally drained it will have enormous implications globally.
Boris, if you go for true Brexit (which after 2 years of negotiation, i.e. in 2018, should have been Leave with No Deal and revert to trading on WTO terms) expel the rebels, and make an electoral pact with Nigel Farage then you could win an election with a landslide. It requires courage and focus, and ruthlessness. No more spin and pandering to left of centre/marxist policies which are engineered to cause divisions in society. Firmly position yourself right of centre and do not waver and blow with the wind as Cameron did to appease this minority faction or that. That does not work and it does not command respect or trust.
September 4, 2019
How do I want the government to proceed? Simple, in a way that respects democracy. There is not, and never has been, any evidence of a mandate for no-deal Brexit. The vast majority of people in this country will be harmed by a no-deal Brexit (not you though, John, I imagine that you’ve got yourself covered). I believe that the significant majority of them are aware of it, and do not support a no-deal Brexit. I believe that there are a lot of people who don’t realise how vulnerable they are – they see your confidence and take comfort from it, but they don’t realise that they’re much further down the pecking order than they thought.
I don’t know how you can consider what is going on in the HoC right now as being somehow antidemocratic. Your assertion that the opinion of our elected, informed representatives today should be trumped by the result of a vague, dishonestly-executed referendum from over 3 years ago, suggests either mind-boggling leaps of logic or ulterior motives.
Here’s the thing, John. When you’re driving down the motorway and there are hundreds of cars coming towards you, surely at some point you have to ask yourself “maybe it’s ME who’s driving on the wrong side”?
September 5, 2019
There is no mandate for a deal. The last thing I voted for was to get enmeshed in another oppressive treaty with the EU. The remainiacs have cooked up this revised version of history. The mandate is to get us out, not keep us in by concocting another Project Fear around “no deal”.
September 5, 2019
I get where you’re coming from, I promise. The deal currently on the table is not what you were promised before the referendum, and I sympathise with that. But all the research that I’ve seen points to “no deal” being by far the most unpopular option out of those available to us, both in parliament and the general population. It seems to garner about 20-30% support. It doesn’t strike me as logical that, out of all the various options, that should be the one we end up settling for.
Imagine a scenario where you had a group of people and you were trying to decide where to go for dinner. Say you had 10 people, and 4 of them wanted to go for burgers, 4 wanted to go for chicken, and 2 wanted to just stay home and eat a pot noodle. The Burger and Chicken faction are fighting amongst themselves, meanwhile the Pot Noodle faction are rubbing their hands in glee because they know that eventually the restaurants will all close and everyone will end up staying home by default.
What SHOULD happen is that the Burger and Chicken factions should turn to the Pot Noodle faction and say “well, we can all agree that Pot Noodles are not a popular choice. It’s between Burgers and Chicken now. So please choose one of those.”
September 4, 2019
Yes they have to lose the whip, especially Rory Stewart and Sam Gyimah , for those two stood in the Conservative leadership contest, had their arguments rejected by the Party against Boris whose arguments won, that to make 31st Oct a deadline date to leave with or without a deal, but yet again , just like the Referendum, they refuse to give losers consent , and now connive with Corbyn to overturn Boris’s agenda by another route. It’s clear they aren’t democrats.
I see we are being treated to more BBC fake news by omission . Facts that go against their narrative and agenda they conveniently forget about. They conveniently forgot about Major and Blair proroguing Parliament for political reasons , which gave the public a distorted views of the the current proposal to prorogue Parliament allowing the rentamob to build up a sense of victimisation, and we saw it again this morning where they sought to portray Boris as intolerant by withdrawing the whip making the Tories nasty right wingers, again conveniently that Major withdrew the whip from 10 Maastricht rebels.
September 5, 2019
These 21 are deeply sinister. What is driving them to conspire with a bent Speaker to seize control of the business of the House away from the Government, and hand it to a crypto communist opposition? What sadistic tendencies do they have to want to keep their own PM prisoner, forcing him to do the unthinkable? And the media paint them as noble and high-minded victims. The Blair/Brown regime never made me feel like this.
September 4, 2019
Now the globalist Conservative MPs have been asked to leave there are two goals
1) Prevent back tracking on the globalist agenda. EU laws. Mass immigration
2) Push the opposition into adopting the globalist position in public for as long as possible. With the intention of getting a populist party to get up and running in Labour and LibDem seats. The aim being to split the vote in those areas as much as possible.
September 4, 2019
We are in the end game for Brexit now.
Yesterday the Commons gave up any pretence of wishing to abide by the referendum result and set itself on a collision course with the 17.4m voters who won the referendum.
Swinson said this morning that her only aim is to stop Brexit, not to obtain a good deal.
Corbyn may or may not want to leave the EU but he is a mere passenger in the juggernaut that is the Remain majority in his party led by Starmer. They will not stop until they have created the circumstances for a second referendum or won an election.
A General election is now absolutely necessary and it will be vital that Boris does a deal with Nigel Farage to unite the Leave side of the argument otherwise he will not win a majority.
If the forces of Remain come together and win a majority of seats and more important, votes, at a general election based on Brexit, they will cancel leaving without a second referendum using the argument that a clear majority voted against Brexit.
That would be a genuine constitutional outrage.
September 4, 2019
It looks like all is lost and we won’t be leaving on the 31st oct after all , if ever.
September 4, 2019
Stephen, did you ever really believe this country was truly democratic? My husband and I always argued that we would never leave. I said we wouldn’t and he said I was a pessimist. I said I was a realist and that MP’s would shaft us as they have done. I don’t know why the Tory government put up with May for so long. It was obvious she and Hammond were plotting for us to stay in. What a load of limp hand wringers we have in parliament. The news is on at the moment and I cannot bring myself to watch these self serving idiots anymore.
September 4, 2019
A dreadful state of affaires. It would seem to make an election inevitable. I which case Boris should have no hesitation in talking to Nigel Farage and delineating the constituencies into those that Brexit can win and those that the Conservatives can retain. No way can the twenty or so traitors be allowed to sit for their seats again as Conservatives. They are guilty as charged.
My one caveat is a question. As leaving the EU is leaving a series of treaties, does the executive, PM and Cabinet, have the power to do it without recourse to the perfidiousness of Parliament. Perhaps our host could answer that one. If the answer is yes then do it. If not it is an election and a very bitter one at that.
September 4, 2019
Where does this end? Why are those rebels able to take over Parliament? Something is definitely rotten in the State of the UK today. And the core of decay is in Parliament. It is time to cut it out.
Under the 5 year term rule can the PM not even call a GE when he was never elected as the PM, only as an MP and in this event he now believes he has lost the confidence of his Constituents and wishes to assure himself ? Or the like?
September 4, 2019
Can the Conservative government just stand down, or does it have to bring a vote of no confidence in itself? Clearly it cannot act, so let Corbyn, Swinson and the Remainers form a government and take the blame.
Or Revoke Article 50 and fight the next election on a leave with no deal platform.
September 4, 2019
If a money resolution or queen’s consent is required and these aren’t provided in the Commons, wouldn’t the Lord Speaker be expected to procure these for the relevant debates in the Lords? Therefore isn’t there hope?
In addition, isn’t there a loophole in the bill? The government is obliged to agree to what the EU council agrees, but is silent on behaviour at the EU Council itself. The EU Council includes the UK so can’t our government simply refuse its own request?
September 4, 2019
Given that our host and other Brexiteers will still not support the WA even with the backstop removed, it is looking impossible for there to be any kind of deal that Boris could get through Parliament, with or without the Backstop.
Given that the EU is never going to agree to starting all aspects of the negotiations again from scratch, WTO terms are looking to be the only way we are going to be able to leave the EU. WTO Terms are surely the only form of Brexit that will win Brexit Party support for the election campaign.
WTO has always been my favoured outcome because I never thought we could get any kind of good deal, but it is likely to be exposed to careful scrutiny in the forthcoming election campaign.
However, I am uncertain whether the public will support a party or parties that are proposing a WTO Brexit. We are in the end game and there is still all to play for.
September 4, 2019
Would a free trade deal to through?
There has been 3.25 years to prepare, there should be no need for a transition. I think the public will support straight out and live with it, we’d find out if we had an election – the total number voting in the EU election was fewer than the.number of leave voters alone in the EU.
Here is a manifesto (1) Leave EU on given date, manage country for 6 months, call another GE. (2) In parallel with 2nd GE good another referendum on changing FPTP to two vote MMP.
I am.happy to vote twice, once to move on and then once on other policies.
September 4, 2019
Well the British constitution has never been written on tablets of stone – never to be changed – so it is time to do some editing…
By the way: Did the Monarch insist on a GE in 1912 when dealing with some constitutional crisis to guarantee voter endorsement?
September 4, 2019
If this tawdry little bill goes through, would it not be possible to ask for a judicial review if as seems possible the Speaker has been incorrect in his allowing of this to go through and as it is a matter of importance to the nation, surely a few hours of debate is insufficient?
If this really is to go through in one day, what about a filibuster? Rees-Mogg is the best exponent. Can he speak? Can the Royal Assent be denied? I really don’t know the answer to this but surely something can be done.
September 4, 2019
The Lords have tabled 100 plus amendments, and time is short. We wait and see.
September 5, 2019
They are being guillotined.
September 4, 2019
JR
” 82% of the votes were cast in the General election for two main parties promising to deliver Brexit. ”
Another one of your misleading statements. In a election people vote for a hundred and one different reasons, nothing to do with Brexit. In the referendum nearly half the voters chose to vote Remain and you Brexiteers have been trying to browbeat them into accepting your skewed power grab.
Your behaviour now is just trying to bamboozle the public with your arcane commons procedures that nobody outside politics understands.
September 4, 2019
Margaret H, We can only be in the EU, or out of the EU. Over half of those voting in the Referendum voted to Leave the EU. Over half. Those were the rules made legal by Parliament. You Remains have been trying to browbeat us into accepting your skewed power grab ever since.
September 4, 2019
Whilst there are more than one reasons to vote for a particular party in a general election, the important point is that both main parties had statements in their manifesto that they would respect the referendum result.
That reassured both Conservatives and Labour brexit supporting voters to vote for them.
Interesting to note that Greens and Lib Dems who openly stated the would do their best to stop Brexit did poorly.
One can only speculate how many votes Labour would have lost with their new remain policy on Brexit.
September 4, 2019
Margaret, we finally agree on something. The referendum is the only true test of whether the voters want to leave or remain in the EU, because they are answering one question only. As we’re now getting along so nicely, please don’t spoil it by trying to pretend that you wouldn’t regard 52% voting for Remain as decisive.
September 4, 2019
the referendum was a wisdom of the crowd exercise there is no point in doing this unless one expects it to be close. if it wasn’t going to be a close a referendum adds nothing. The wisdom of 33.5 million people made the decision, it should not be seen as a win lose ‘football match’.
The total turnout in the EU elections was lower than the leave vote alone in the referendum Of there were really many more than 17 million strong remain voters they would have turned out in the EU elections – they didn’t, their existence is a myth.
September 4, 2019
Maggie H
So lets get this straight ,elections multiple reasons, but referendums only binary reasons yes or no. Is that correct?
September 4, 2019
What did Remain voters vote for then ?
September 4, 2019
The only true statement in your response is that people vote the way they do is for varied reasons. Other than that, it is pure retainer response and if anyone is trying to browbeat anyone, all the evidence is that it is the remainers, with their continuous accusations of leavers being simple-minded (or worse) browbeating us with project fear Mk 1, 2 and 3.
Pray set out your reasons why you think it is good to remain in the EU, supported by concrete, concise evidenced reasons as to the benefits of staying in such a sclerotic, undemocratic, Germany ruled statist organisation. We might learn something. Or not, as the case may be….
September 4, 2019
I think I would ask those that continually vote against there own Manifesto position what option the English in particular will have left, The Wolves in Sheep Clothing tactics of Sinn Fein/IRA because that seems to get an Ear where the Ballot box No longer does.
September 4, 2019
There are three potential road-blocks obstructing the passage of this accursed bill: the CONSENT block; the Lords block; and the ASSENT block. I’m sure that they will be enough. Perhaps Boris should now look to extending the prorogation, past 31 October, while the Commons is away. And if we are still in the EU at the time of the next general election the Conservative manifesto should include a simple commitment to leave the EU, immediately, without a further referendum and without being bound by any treaty. Just do it! Time for Nike politics.
September 4, 2019
I want the government to use every method at its disposal to exit the EU, I wonder if we could even leave before the 31st of October? For Boris and the conservative party to be credible they must have run out of options to deliver brexit.
But a GE is now inevitable, here the conservative party needs to be firm and deselect the rebel MPs and any other that seek to stop a WTO brexit. I’d hope a deal was done with the brexit party, but likely they now will not stand against real conservatives.
As for Labour, the next election may well return them less votes then libdems, who have surely domed themselves to infamy for the next couple of decades.
On brexit I now cannot see any hope of a deal, ironically the remainers sabotaged that.
September 4, 2019
Philipp Hammond was reelected by his local association. Hammond is a ‘good’ Conservative. The problem is the party itself. The sooner this is realised and the Conservative party ceases to exist in any meaningful sense, the sooner a political party can emerge that represents good sense.
September 4, 2019
Hammond has now been deselected by his own Association. The “readoption” of Hammond on Monday by just a few key members has now been reversed as a result of Hammond’s conduct last night. Very reassuring news. Treachery cannot be seen to be rewarded/ignored.
September 4, 2019
He does not respect a democratic vote. He refused to prepare the UK to leave. I don’t know whether this classified as a good conservative, but it is not good.
September 4, 2019
Simeon
A party for Hammond already exists, its just he joined the wrong party. He should be a Lib Dem , unless of course you think we need a new “centrist ” party , maybe we could call it, I dunno…. TIG …. no that won’t do…. I know Change UK , yes lets start a new party called Change UK . Great idea
September 4, 2019
Your 82% figure may be true but only because many Labour voters didn’t have an alternative option. If you don’t like the way our democratic system is working maybe you should vote to change it. Proportional Representation would be a good place to start. Then at least people would be encouraged to vote for the party they really wanted to vote for, rather than the least worst of two bad options.
September 4, 2019
What should we do now, we’ll what the majority want is freedom from all our hypocrites.
What to do now is vote for the only Party promising to change Politics in this Country for good.
I sincerely hope that all self respecting Tories will in deed put Country first and do a deal with The Brexit Party, and get the hell out of the EU
September 4, 2019
Sir John
It’s now no longer a question of how we want parliament to proceed: we know the answer to that. What we now need to know is: how on earth to prise Remain’s fingers from the windpipe of Brexit? David Green on the Spectator website suggests packing the Lords with five hundred Brexit supporting peers. This will honour the referendum, balance the upper chamber and provoke the dissolution of this appalling parliament. Remain has torn up precedent and constitutional norms; now Leave must answer back.
September 4, 2019
The article is as per what I posted yesterday, so I want the govt to proceed by denying Consent, which is essentially ministers simply saying that they will not seek Consent (i.e. HMQ i not directly involved in this).
That means last night was about smoking out the rebels and showing the country that there are no bounds to the depths to which they will stoop to thwart the will of the people.
If that did not happen for whatever reason then I would expect them to advise HMQ to refuse Royal Assent (i.e. at the back end of the process, refusing to sign the Bill into law). Although this oi sthe more normal means by which tyhe govt blocks a Bill there are two reasons why refusing Consent may be better in this instance:
1. Assent involves the queen more directly that would spark (nonsensical) faux outrage – of course, refusing Consent would also do so – so Consent is better since it means less direct involvement of HMQ. We saw how some people were behaving towards Her Majesty over proroguing, so it is clear that these people don’t understand her role and won’t bother to find out or even to listen to those who try to explain it.
2. There is an advantage to withholding Consent (i.e. at the start) since it is then obvious that the only way the opposition benches can put through legislation is by actually and genuinely BECOMING the government via the ballot box, not by usurping its executive powers through arcane procedural means – essentially, vote for a GE or shut up and watch the clock tick down to 31/10.
September 4, 2019
Just to add… I note that the article says “It will be interesting to see if this convention is observed.”
If it is not, then my view is that the PM should simply stand up and state that it needs to be observed and that Consent is denied.
He can them state that, whatever the Speaker may think, the government is certain that Consent is required, therefore it will not be bound by any further proceedings on a matter on which it has refused Consent.
Cue the usual court cases, of course.
September 4, 2019
This link is pertinent:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmhansrd/vo990416/debtext/90416-21.htm
On the Parliament web site, this shows the (then) Speaker’s response when asked if the Private Bill on the Iraq war could proceed without Royal Consent from Blair’s govt – a very clear ‘No’ from the Speaker, quoting the relevant section of Erskine May.
September 4, 2019
1. Call a GE if possible
2. Don’t provide Queen’s consent today
3. Don’t pass the bill to Royal Assent
4. Flood the lords with Brexit peers
5. Phil-buster it out in the lords.
6. Withhold payments to the EU if it becomes law.
7. Try to prevent Royal Assent.
8. Extend the revocation of parliament passed the 19th October, then resign as PM one minute before he needs to request an extension. With parliament prorogued, it cannot find a new PM in 14 within 14 days and so a GE ensues and we leave to WTO.
9. Just ignore the bill, it doesn’t specify any deterrent.
10. Veto it’s approval in the EU
11. Persuade another member state to veto
12. Threaten to VETO all EU business if they extend.
Any combination of the above.
September 4, 2019
We need you in government, I love it!
September 4, 2019
In answer to your question, Sir John, the government should hold firm and the Remainer rebels should lose the whip and be deselected, and swiftly.
The election should start being fought now with the slogan “Parliament against the people” to ram home exactly what has happened. Maybe, “Parliament and the EU against the people”.
Make a pact with The Brexit Party immediately and be proud of doing so. Look at the huge opportunities that brings.
Start putting out new policies – abandon HS2, abandon the Green Deal, reform foreign aid,
designate free port areas, announce sweeping reform of the Fisheries policies, give tax breaks by removing/reducing unpopular taxes, give financial stimuli and remove crippling legislation to help regenerate manufacturing industry in this country and to boost SME. NHS needs reforming so that power is out of the hands of the bureaucrats and medical decisions are made by those medically qualified to make them. Also abandon hospital car parking charges. For high streets, bring down business rates, and make LAs reduce car parking charges, and allow more on street free parking.
September 4, 2019
Abolish postal voting
Abolish the BBC
Increase voting age to 21 to stop Labour indoctrinating the minds of young people with extremism and then buying their vote with ‘free-lunches’
September 4, 2019
Yes. Yes. Prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed until about 25.
September 4, 2019
Increase voting age to 51 ….ha ha
September 4, 2019
Perhaps a maximum voting age should be introduced. 55.
September 4, 2019
I would favour a higher voting age, with exceptions made for police and military service.
September 4, 2019
Sir John,
It is entirely useless having MPs who claim to be Conservatives, many ex -Ministers – being given a Whip they ignore on matters of major constitutional significance and on a policy they stood on in a GE Manifesto and voted for the subsequent substantive legislation. They must be removed from the Party because they are acting directly against it, its democratically chosen Leader and its government. They cannot be bound by the Whip as they perceive it – so they are excluded from the Government’s numbers anyway.
September 4, 2019
The Speaker has broken every Constitutional rule in the book. The Government should send in the Army to remove him.
I hope that the Prime Minister will bring a motion of No Confidence in his own Government. Corbyn would not dare to oppose it. That way the Prime Minister can get his General Election on 15th October.
The PM should tell the House that he will repeal the wretched Benn/Letwin Bill immediately after winning the General Election.
In order to ensure that the General Election is won the PM and his Party should list all of the many advantages – both economic and sovereign – that a No Deal Brexit will deliver. It is necessary to dispel the clouds of gloom that Project Fear has built up.
September 4, 2019
Problem is the British/Brussels Brainwashing Corporation is totally controlled by the Remain Traitors and the EU. Many feeble minded people actually believe what they tell them!
September 5, 2019
And how much did Sir Oliver have to do with the invention of the FTPA?
September 4, 2019
Dear Sir John Redwood
The Conservatives are now down to 287 MPs: Even with the DUP they CANNOT govern! A General Election (for 15th October)- fought on an economically-popular pro-growth and pro-Brexit platform is now vital: The Vital Plan Boris Johnson needs now is “How To Get To An Election Without Losing Power”.
Labour have now asserted that they will not vote for an Election under a Motion bought by Boris Johnson (under Fixed Terms Parliament Act) – unless the Anti “No-Deal” Bill is firmly on the Statute Books. This Bill must (rightly) be resisted by the Government.
Boris Johnson could trigger a Vote of NC in his own Government and dare the Opposition to support him. This is a High-Risk route to an Election – as there is (clearly) a firm Majority in Parliament against a “No Deal” Brexit.
Boris Johnson could table a simple piece of legislation for an Election on 15th October buttressed with a stipulation that Britain WILL leave the EU on 31st October- and dare MPs to vote it down. There is a risk that they could support such an Election Bill but the House of Lords add Anti-“No Deal” amendments. Boris Johnson would have to strike down his own Election Bill if it was thus sabotaged but this should be his first step.
If the simple Election Bill fails (or is sabotaged with amendments) it must be the High-Risk route since Labour will close off the Low-Risk Route to an Election: Boris Johnson tables a Vote of NC in his own Government on grounds that he can’t govern with just 287 MPs (plus DUP). The Opposition votes for this, scrabble around to form a Government. In the meantime Boris Johnson stays PM, does everything in his power to dissuade other MPs from coalescing around Jeremy Corbyn (should be easy) or from around a leading Remainer like Dominic Drieve, QC (could fail).
If Remainers do find enough common ground to try and form a Government Boris Johnson could still sit tight and hold out to go for an Election- campaigning that people MUST have their say “Not a Remainer Elite Determined To Stop Brexit”. This should help Boris Johnson should the Remainers (again) go to Court to argue the Government is being “unconstitutional”- the Judiciary may well agree that there must be an Election!
Boris Johnson should hold out until the end of the 14 days- prevailing upon the Remainers to go to the country: They will (eventually) agree and relent!
The High Risk route does risk Boris Johnson getting told by a Judge his Government is “illegal”, that Remainers should be permitted to take over if they can command enough support behind a Dominic Grieve or a Hilary Benn. If that happens, Boris Johnson should get the Army to protect him and his ministers around the clock (to protect them from arrest) whilst he pushes for a General Election- whilst sacking (and replacing with Conservatives) any judges making such rulings!
This could well be what is required to get to an Election to get a mandate to fully see Brexit through. The country will thank Boris Johnson’s government for its boldness!
Have you, Sir told the Prime Minister and Dominic Cummings that all this may be what it takes to see Brexit through?
May the Force be with Boris Johnson
Best Wishes
Ian Pennell
September 4, 2019
JR, We are this mess primarily because there is a majority of Remain MPs in the HoC who seem to think it honourable and democratic to overturn our vote in the Referendum.
Secondarily the Conservative party a) elected the Remain Theresa May as PM; b) did not remove her when it was obviously going wrong (2017 election, 2017 military sign-up, Kit-Kat scandal, Chequers, dWA, multi votes in HoC). Commenters on here repeatedly highlighted the ongoing problems, but Brady and the PCP did not act (soon enough).
As I said (from 2013) – and many others did too – the EU will not be fair or reasonable and we will not get any major deal that does not tie us back into the EU. We should never have invoked TEU Art50, but patriated EU Regulations and repealed the ECA 1972, trading under WTO terms only. The EU cannot be trusted.
The only way out now is a pact with the Brexit Party for the purposes of Brexit only in a general election. Unless of course the government in its weakened state can find a magic way to exit on 31 Oct to WTO trading under current circumstances.
September 4, 2019
Boris MUST force through what was promised. I see great problems if he doesn’t, not only for the Tory Party. What the Remainers have done will have to be done bt Leave backers, and being as the Police seem never to take action against them it will flare out of control if they should try to interfere,
September 4, 2019
I understand that it is the Speaker who decides if Queen’s Consent is required.
September 4, 2019
Peter, well if that;s the case then that’s doomed too. Does this government have any power? I really don’t see that we need a parliament at all if the party that’s in power cannot do anything.
September 4, 2019
When you are backed into a corner you have to level the playing field.
Boris must align with Nigel Farage in terms of tactical voting.When all said and done the Brexit Party has Conservative principals albeit that they may be a little further right of centre.
Corbyn will have to agree eventually to an election,in the mean time Boris should soldier on and bend the rules legally if necessary.
September 4, 2019
It seems likely that Boris’s motion to call a General Election – entirely conventional, following the appointment of a new PM – will be thwarted by a remainer-dominated Parliament whose remainer MPs rightly fear the wrath of the voters from whom they have their only democratic legitimacy.
Boris should go to the Palace and ask HMQ for an early election. HMQ can easily grant the request (upon which prorogation can follow) as the FTPA Section 2(3) – the Crown’s ability to call a GE or install an alternative PM – involved a transfer of power from the Crown to Parliament, and the Crown when assenting to the bill never envisaged or consented to its being deliberately abused in this way by Parliament.
The PM can point to Section 3 of the rebel ‘Do whatever the EU wants’ bill as a blatant attempt to keep the country subjugated to a foreign power and an entirely unconstitutional interference in an international treaty matter in which the foreign power is known to be colluding.
HMQ has the right to take back the power to appoint and consult a PM, as Parliament – for its own anti-democratic ends – is holding the government to ransom but not allowing it to test its public support in a fresh election. This is clearly unconstitutional.
September 4, 2019
The more I hear Ian Blackford of the SNP ranting on in Parliament, the more I wish they had their way and left the UK.
The Scots may of course not really want that.H Having an EU border would present problems, but then Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon could always go to the EU for hanouts.
September 4, 2019
Sadly agreed.
September 4, 2019
agreed
September 4, 2019
Boris is right in that delaying will continue the uncertainty that everyone hates. Even if Labour win there will be a chunk of the British electorate who will never accept remain. The Labour party will be divided. We should have begun this enterprise with a National debate as soon as the referendum was over. Whatever happens there will be division in the country.
September 4, 2019
In a democratic way and NOT as a DICTATOR. This government is a travesty of our democracy where you PERSUADE those who disagree and NOT throw them out of your government. WELCOME TO COMUNIST CHINA .
September 4, 2019
Vanessa, Don’t be silly. No MP has a God-given right to be in the government.
September 4, 2019
They voted with the opposition on a 3 line whip after being warned the consequences.
They all stood on the Conservatives manifesto and so gained votes from local people who expected them to help the government respect the referendum result. ad not spend their time once elected to do the opposite.
If they were honest they should have joined the Lib Dems before the last election or stood as independent candidates.
Or even abstained in that vote.
September 4, 2019
They cannot be persuadrd. They stood under a manifesto and refuse to implement it. The manifesto implicitly defined a good deal as including a parallel negotiated trade deal. EU wouldn’t do this (though if HoC wasn’t going against Johnson TO might have shifted).. There is no parallel trade deal, hence eal deal is the manifesto promise.t
(More people voted leave in the referendum than voted at all in EU ekections)
September 4, 2019
Read some history and grow up
September 4, 2019
they should not have stood on that manifesto if they didnt believe in it.
the public have had enough of people saying one thing at election time, and doing another thing completely when they have a chance to manipulate the levers of power.
never mind loss of the whip, the public would be quite happy to see saying one thing at election time and doing another once in office a criminal offence…
September 4, 2019
The Conservative Party has long been taken over by Liberals.
It is a false party.
This is why we had a referendum in the first place. To remove once and for all the chasm between Liberal imposters and real Tories. It backfired. It turned out that Tory Eurosceptics were some fringe minority after all.
September 4, 2019
Should read: It turned out that Tory Eurosceptics weren’t some fringe minority after all.
September 4, 2019
They have not been thrown out of government they have been effectively thrown out of the conservative party so stand as independents for not supporting government policy. As for democratic there is nothing democratic about those who wish to have their own way and keep us shackled to the EU against a legitimate vote where the majority voted to leave, which is what the government seek to honour, hardly dictatorial. I also urge you to look up the definition of Democracy.
September 4, 2019
How about going to the Queen and getting the new ruling overturned and then just leave the EU. Simple. Everyone I speak to is fed up with it all and even those that voted remain couldn’t care less anymore. They just want it over and the democratic vote to be respected.
September 4, 2019
Boris Johnson can refuse to comply with the MPs wishes. Then the only way to break the deadlock would be a no-confidence vote on the PM and eventually a general election.
No matter how Labour want to play it and no matter how long the garden path is that leads to it, the only way to resolve the issue now is a general election. Either sooner or later.
September 5, 2019
Hello Sailor…a remarkable brief and clear way forward….Congratulations. Others write small unfathomable novels and still don’t capture the essence.
September 4, 2019
Any election – no postal votes this time as the system is broken and corrupted I heard of teenagers that voted by post at their parents address and at their University address until you can tie this up then this must be stopped – vote in person unless you can provide evidence that you are out of the Country. If necessary hold an election on a Sunday as they do in Europe.
September 5, 2019
There has obviously been some organisation/funded operation to ensure that hundreds of thousands of new voters register. This smacks of potential for voter fraud. There already exists the huge risk of voter fraud in the present system but the government has been unwilling to tackle it effectively, so it will now reap the “reward” from its own inaction.
September 4, 2019
Pottery Barn rules – you’ve broken the Conservative Party, it’s yours to fix now.
September 4, 2019
Sir John, please read Robert Craig’s helpful and forensic explanation (reposted on Briefings for Brexit) “Proponents of the new Backbench Bill to stop No Deal face a significant dilemma over Queen’s Consent”.
He explains that the way the bill has been drafted means the provisions insisting the PM accedes to the will of the foreign treaty power directly interferes in the Crown Prerogative in a way the Cooper-Letwin Bill did not, and it therefore expressly needs Queen’s Consent, which the PM/government can refuse in her name.
The Speaker’s judgement was therefore erroneous – if he continues at 3rd Stage to refuse the request for Royal Consent, the government should declare the Bill ultra vires, refuse to present it for Assent, and ignore its provisions, as it is not law.
Judicial review would undoubtedly find for the government.
September 5, 2019
Yes, I hope that Boris and his team are aware of this, and thank you for summarising it so clearly,mancunius. I once thought MPs were clued up on issues, but over the last years it has become very obvious that many are surprisingly ignorant of critical issues, and the content of key EU legislation seems to have eluded them. Some have even admitted they never bothered to read it.
September 4, 2019
I feel that if Mr Johnson would make it VERY clear to the general public that he has no intention of ‘tweaking’ May’s surrender treaty (simply with the dropping of the ‘backstop’) then there are many who would vote for him, rather than The Brexit Party. He should state publicly that it is ‘dead’ – as he has done on the website ‘standup4brexit.com’. (Perhaps he is waiting for the right time, just before a GE – in order to wrong-foot the remains.)
As it is, there seems to be a widespread suspicion that he will use the rest of it as the basis for the ‘deal’. Many people have read this ‘WA’ and know what it’s about. For those in power to dismiss our fears as if we’re ignorant of what it represents is folly.
This is what will throw people into the arms of the The Brexit Party. Its aim, at least, is very clear.
September 5, 2019
That is why he has to have an accommodation with The Brexit Party so that the Leavers can have a united front in an election, but key to that is having the trust in Boris to firmly discard the WA and PD. I personally do not have complete trust in him. He has to take action swiftly. I understand that there is to be some sort of “emergency statement” fairly soon, if reports in the Press are to be believed.
September 4, 2019
Sir John,
You have a jaundiced view of today’s Bill. It does not “force the PM to seek an extension”. You forget the conditionality part. The PM would be made to seek an extension only if (1) a deal with the EU acceptable to parliament has not been reached and (2) our sovereign parliament decides that it does not support your preferred no-deal form of Brexit. If the Bill does not pass, it means that your preferred version of Brexit (which is a minority view except for your many supporters who post here) would be forced upon us.
September 4, 2019
It should be refused royal assent
September 4, 2019
“We have a Leader of the Opposition who has gone on and on about the need for an early election. Now he is faced with the opportunity of one he looks as if he might instruct his party not to vote for it.”
I feel a bit foolish writing this, because I would have expected you to already know this, but I suspect that it’s because calling a general election right now looks suspiciously like a sneaky move to tie up parliament and prevent them from having a democratic and honest debate about the impending Brexit deadline.
September 4, 2019
I usually find this site very interesting, but today, scrolling through the many rude remarks of the remainers who have found this site – it was really boring and quite tedious! Such a shame!
In answer to the question of what government should do next …arrest the remainers actively attempting to stop Brexit for treason! There is no way they should be allowed to continue abusing the constitution as they have been to date! And as for Bercow… shameful little man.
September 4, 2019
Prof Bill Mitchell who I brought to Edinburgh and Glasgow this year nailed it in his blog yesterday.
September 4, 2019
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Bercow and the “Remainers” were responsible for tearing up the Erskine May convention in January which caused the failure to leave on the EU on the 29th March. This was the real “coup” by those who cannot accept the result of the referendum in 2016. The “Remainers” may talk about being opposed to “No Deal” but in reality they are opposed to BREXIT in its entirety. Hammond and Co have had plenty of time to obtain a suitable deal which can pass parliament and have failed to do so. So there needs to be the option of leaving without a deal or there is no incentive for the EU to negotiate at all. I think that the EU people have intimated this already. So the “Remainers” are just seeking to keep us perpetually in the EU negotiating in some sort of “Remainer ” induced purgatory.
September 4, 2019
Not being an infant, when I voted to leave the EU I expected Germany and France to punish us. I did not need someone to explain this to me. What I did not expect was politicians, who had strained every sinew to rid us of the Commonwealth to conspire with a corrupt speaker to ensure we remained a colony of Europe.
Sadly, Boris missed an elementary trick by not using the language of his opponents. Corbyn may declaim that he is not going to be tricked into a general election to defeat Dictator Boris
but would he be so proud of denying a People’s Vote?
September 4, 2019
Boris should simply refuse to ask for an extension under any circumstances – even if the bill says he must. What are they going to do about it? Only the PM can ask for an extension, if they want a new PM they had better table VONC or accept an election.
September 5, 2019
He has said he won’t so let us hope he sticks to that course. I can’t think of another.
September 5, 2019
Apparently Blair used similar “blocking” powers when he did not like what Parliament had voted for. I believe Boris is within his rights to ignore the Bill. He will get his election on his preferred date, I believe, but I fear that voter fraud/manipulation could happen.
September 4, 2019
Sir John,
You may read this at your own leisure, or you may not. I suspect very few others, if any, will have the dubious pleasure…
The present mess might not be entirely of BJ’s making, but he is ultimately responsible for it. The reason is that, were he truly a believer in a coherent Brexit; if he understood the essential nature of our relationship with the EU; had he been paying attention over these past three years to what the EU has been saying and doing; and had he understood the opinion of this Parliament, then he would have recognised that the only way to proceed in order to deliver Brexit was this;
first, state that the UK and EU had agreed that no agreement was possible prior to Brexit.
second, state that as such, it was government policy to leave the EU on October 31st.
third, prepare the country as best as possible for this outcome.
Assuming that the entirety of the Conservative Parliamentary party would not support this, he would then propose a general election to resolve the matter. Had he done all this earlier, and indeed aimed at this from the start, he would have the general election he has belatedly concluded is necessary. Furthermore, he’d actually stand a great chance of winning that general election and actually delivering Brexit, because people would have no reason to doubt the sincerity of his words.
As it is, sensible people don’t trust BJ generally, and certainly don’t trust him on Brexit. His prospects in a general election are poor. The people versus Parliament? Which people? Those who have come round to the idea that the WA is marginally better than a long and painful death? Not a promising constituency from which to draw your support.
The best hope of a Brexit now is a second referendum – hopefully with BJ and the vast majority of Conservative politicians nowhere to be seen. Even the likes of yourself and other Tory spartans are probably liabilities as, with some justification, you are guilty by association (most electors are not close followers of politics and the subtleties of various views on Brexit are lost on them).
The Conservative party has utterly failed, both as a defender of conservative values, but also more basically as a competent party of government. Your judgement must be questioned given your long standing and continued support of a disgraced grouping (I certainly wouldn’t use the term ‘organisation’).
As I have said, the present shambles is, overwhelmingly, the fault of the Conservative party. Sadly for you, your hands are as red with blood as any other Conservative MP. This despite your integrity in standing firm against the WA. That action had genuine value, and no one can take that away from you. But your continued association with the Conservatives is a more profound action. You might cite your duty to your local constituents, but don’t you think they would not only have understood but Furthermore supported you had you determined to become independent? Would that not have been more honest?
BJ and Cummings have cocked this up spectacularly. And you, for whatever reason, to whatever extent, have enabled them. You might say they have let you down and betrayed your trust, but what were you expecting? Seriously. These two are clowns. They might be intelligent to a degree, but they have no wisdom. These procedural antics are unnecessary and only serve to corrode trust in politicians further – though how this is even possible is difficult to fathom. Whether, it’s Grieve or Berrow, Starmer or Hammond, Rees-Mogg or BJ and Cummings, the nonsense in the Commons is pathetic. Politicians have failed. Let the people raise up new ones. And if the people are foolish enough to raise up the same old charlatans, then the people deserve everything that’s coming to them.
September 7, 2019
Thank you very much for that.
September 4, 2019
To be fair to the electorate, should not the Parliament consider, discuss and debate the “only deal available” Withdrawal Agreement, page by page, paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, making deletions and amendments until the document is agreeable to all our representatives, the revised form submitted back to the EU with our final offer, by October 30th 2019 ?
September 5, 2019
Ha Ha that ‘debate’ would take us to the end of the present Parliament, when a GE would be needed anyway.
September 4, 2019
All this is the fault of David Cameron for introducing the Fixed-Term Parliament Act. PMs were always allowed to call an election whenever they wanted to, and the reason for this was to prevent us ever arriving at the situation in which we now find ourselves. But Cameron, following the example of Blair who also played fast and loose with the constitution, foolishly introduced this stupid change to the constitution.
What the solution is, I don’t know. Can the PM take us unilaterally out of the EU now? Many people would welcome it.
September 5, 2019
…and guess who designed the FTPA for Cameron?
September 11, 2019
> All this is the fault of David Cameron for introducing the Fixed-Term Parliament Act.
There are many at fault.
Gove for stabbing Boris in the back in the previous Conservative leadership campaign.
Theresa May for a wholly unnecessary general election.
Theresa May for her Stockholm Syndrome.
The Remainers for hating the plebs (at very stage).
And now Cummings and Boris for…. well, it remains to be seen. Loss of Brexit altogether? Or Brino warmed over WA? We’ll see.
September 4, 2019
Now the opposition both have a majority but refuse a GE I feel there is no longer a restriction on the governments behaviour.
Boris should go to the EU and tell them Britain is leaving the EU early if possible. If not then he, as is the right of every free subject of the Queen can refuse a task that he had not agreed to undertake when he took up the job. In which case parliament should then be prorogued permanently until either the Queen steps in to dissolve it, or the opposition agree to cancel the fixed term parliament act – since it is faulty legislation.
I hope and increasingly believe Farage will unilaterally stand aside in the event of a no deal brexit to conservative seats, if some conservative prospective MPs stood aside in labour seats it would help. Its hard to tell whether libdems or labour will come third, they both have committed acts that should spell the end of any party.
September 4, 2019
If Gove hadn’t decided to stab Johnson in the back, Johnson would have become PM instead of Theresa May, moved briskly to Brexit, had a healthy majority and we’d have some kind of bearable WA and be out of the EU by now. Hammond never would have been Remainer in Chief in Cabinet either.
Things look very bad at the moment, but I don’t think there’s much else Johnson could have done, coming to the PM position this late with no workable majority and a parliamentary party riddled with Remainers. In my own view he should advise the Queen not to give the Bill royal assent. It seems to me strikingly irregular (I don’t know if the word “unconstitutional” would have meaning in this context, so irregular will do).
It orders the PM around like a junior civil servant. It has written a letter to the EU for him, making him a mere messenger boy. If this is Bill is made law, it sets a precedent of astonishing irregularity- that the Parliament can instruct not only the Executive, and thus the Monarch, to take particular actions, but that it can instruct anyone to do anything. It is not a law which defines thou shalt not. It defines thou shalt.
It means Parliament could instruct the PM- or anyone else- to do anything. Stand in Whitehall singing the EU anthem on one leg. Jump into a giant bowl of custard. Post nude selfies on Twitter. It makes him- and thus potentially any UK citizen- a slave of parliamentary whim. If it is not constitutionally struck down, it is an appalling, terrifying precedent far beyond the issue of EU Membership.
Bercow has already decided to pass rulings which are highly irregular in themselves. Johnson and Brexiteers must now simply say “no”.
September 5, 2019
Agreed, IB.
September 5, 2019
Very worrying, but hey, this is the EU puppet parliament we’re dealing with together with all the little EU quislings.
September 7, 2019
May I remind you that this is the Parliament voted in by the British people in 2017. Whether the MPs are actually following their manifestos is a different question. This Parliament you condemn had not one vote coming from any of the EU27 countries, apart from some British expats, nor from any EU immigrant in the UK as their presence here only potentially gives them a vote in local elections. So this is a Parliament voted in by British people.
If you are happy playing at pre-insurrection, please also accept that I consider you as utterly stupid (together with some others on this blog) as you only appear to use vocabulary pumped into your arse by right-wing media not even owned by Brits.
So try to be a bit original, stop copying the Sun and the Express, aim higher … at least at the Telegraph … if you can (which, by the way, the more I read you, the more I doubt).
September 4, 2019
Anxiety indeed wonderful, raising anger and impatience across the land towards the brexit puritans holding this great country of ours back
September 5, 2019
I think the best way to proceed is for Boris Johnson to make it clear to Parliament and the country that the UK will leave the eu within 3 days of winning an election.
My understanding is that normal protocol means that international treaties are normally honoured by successive governments. However if the political party that eventually wins an election makes it clear BEFORE the election that such a treaty/agreement will not be honoured I see no problem with tearing it up once it is back in office.
By doing this, the Conservatives can be certain to win a general election (although it may need help from the Brexit party). It may also persuade the eu that signing any such agreement would be futile.
As for the Speaker’s conduct, this needs a proper investigation once things have calmed down.
September 5, 2019
All quite predictable. When Dominic Cummings et al rejected long term sceptic Dr Richard North’s well researched and credible Flexcit proposals this car crash was inevitable. Simply we should have joined the EFTA free trading block and used that as a vehicle to withdraw from the EU. What he has said about the foolishness of the leave side has sadly come to pass.
If it wasn’t for the ego’s and ignorance of those in the Leave camp we could be on our way out of the EU now in a way that protects jobs and the economy. The mistake the leavers made was assuming Brexit was an event instead of a process that will take many many years.
September 5, 2019
The EU have said they would not agree to your version of Brexit.
September 5, 2019
You give a simple answer to a very very complex problem. Have you read the entire Flexcit plan and accompanying research?.
Flexcit is infinitely better than the leavers expecting that jonny foreigner will simply back down if we talj tough enough
September 6, 2019
I glad you like my answer Ken.
I simply listen to what the EU keep saying.
Many on here have various good ideas for the kind of deal they would like.
But the EU has never been interested in these deals.
Currently the EU say the Withdrawal Agreement is the only reality and they will not reopen any negotiations on it.