Labour knows how to borrow too much to bring on an economic collapse

Some younger voters may not have studied UK economic history. There has been a depressing pattern to it all.

The 1964-70 Labour government borrowed and spent too much. It was forced into a devaluation and had to impose austerity policies to try to rally the currency.

The 1974-9 Labour government overspent and overborrowed to such an extent that they ran out of money and had to go to the IMF for a loan. There was further devaluation. The IMF imposed tough austerity conditions on the loan  which then governed Labour policy.

The 1997-2010 Labour government lasted longer because for the first few years it followed inherited Conservative spending and tax plans which worked.  Then it cranked up the spending and borrowing – particularly through the private finance initiative lumbering public services with large debts- and presided over the crash of 2008-9.

The last two Labour governments both raised unemployment by around half a million people. Indeed every Labour government apart from the first short lived minority one has left office with unemployment up on where it started.

A sensible amount of credit, and borrowing for worthwhile investment, can help an economy. Excessive state credit and excessive state spending with high taxes is always a ruinous combination. It makes people worse off, leads to job losses and recession, and leave the Treasury short of tax revenues to pay the bills. The huge spending and taxing plans of the current Labour party would bring on an early crisis.

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  1. Lifelogic
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Exactly and we already have excessive state debt and excessive state spending with the highest and most complex and idiotic and confiscatory taxes for 40+ years – all thanks to Brown, Darling, Hammond and Osborne.

    Just the threat of Corbyn is already doing huge economic damage and killing confidence in the UK economy even though, thank goodness, it still looks unlikely. Why invest here if Corbyn will confiscate you assets or devalue them in short order?

    So Boris might kill HS2 and the BBC licence fee it seems – why only might both should happen? I suspect he will do neither alas. One think for sure is that the NHS will get far worse under Corbyn as he will bankrupt the country and will be totally unable to fund it or indeed other public services. Please he will embolden the state sector unions which is the last thing we need.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:24 am | Permalink

      So long as the UK is signatory to ECHR, NO government can confiscate anyone’s assets.

      It would violate the Human Right To The Peaceful Enjoyment Of Possessions.

      Maybe that is the true reason why so many on the Right want to leave it?

      There are several trillion pounds worth of equity in all that residential property, after all.

      It would be handy if the Receivers could grab that, when people’s mortgage owners went bust next time, after all.

      Read the small print on your lender’s terms.

      • IanT
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

        Can you name a Marxist Government that has shown any respect for Human Rights Martin?

        As the Labour Party has discovered to its cost – once you let these people in the door – you can’t get rid of them.

        As for “trillions of pounds worth of equity in all that residential property” – how much do you think that will be worth if the pound crashes and capital controls are put in place. How many people are up to their eyes in mortgage debt that they couldn’t possibly sustain if interest rates started to go back to the long term norm of 5%?

        Not possible? My mortgage went up to 15% at one time – I nearly defaulted. Read JRs article again – because if you are not old enough to remember the 70’s – the you need a history lesson. I visited state owned Leyland factories, lived through 3-day weeks, saw the pound crushed. Surely even you remember the note left by the Brown Government “There’s no money left”

        And these were Labour Governments that would look a bit right wing to some of the people behind Corbyn. All your fancy theories will not help you if these people gain power. Be very careful what you wish for – you might get it.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:44 am | Permalink

        “ARTICLE 1

        Protection of property

        Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment
        of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions
        except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided
        for by law and by the general principles of international law.

        The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair
        the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary
        to control the use of property in accordance with the general
        interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions
        or penalties.”

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

          And our beloved Common Law, national and international, has oodles of case law as to what is reasonable in the public interest, and how far the authorities might go on that pretext.

          If you remove the statute to which that relates however, then you lose all those additional protections too.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

            The Thatcher government’s Acquisition Of Land Act is about the most far-reaching of such laws enabling the authorities to take private property in this jurisdiction.

            However, in accordance with ECHR even this stipulates that due compensation must be paid, and that there must be a fair appeals procedure.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

          In other words Judges can decide entirely how they wish to rule on it’s legality – depending on what mood they are in that day!

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 11, 2019 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

            No, they cannot overturn precedent without a legal reasoning which would persuade their profession, and which would be consistent with the Axioms Of Equity as well as with statute.

            So do you think that a judge should not be permitted to use, er, judgement, then?

            What else, bizarrely, can you mean, Mr. Logic?

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

        You’ve got egg on your face over that one, haven’t you Martin? That’s the problem with so many Remains – you fall for slogans and soundbites rather than doing in-depth research and then real thinking. Two examples: you keep telling us why we voted Leave, instead of asking us; and, you are unable to explain why you think the UK cannot be as independent of the EU as New Zealand is.

        • bill brown
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

          Nick C

          If, you had any idea about how trade and our service sector work and historical and cultural ties you would not write such nonsense about UK, EU and NZ

        • Andy
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

          We can be like New Zealand. The question is why would you want to be?

          New Zealanders are poorer per capita than we are. New Zealander’s have significantly fewer trade advantages. Its people can not live, love, work or study bureaucracy free in 31 other countries.

          Why do you want to be like NZ?

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

          No, it is you who needs to do your research, into the case law of Human Rights, the precedents, that is, as well as the articles and statutes.

          Your last challenge is too silly for words. You might as well ask the same question about Puerto Rico and the US.

        • Andy
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

          Incidentally you often speak of wanting us to be like NZ. So why don’t you retire to New Zealand? The answer is quite simple. You probably can’t. Unless you have links with NZ – children there for example – or you are wealthy enough to invest a significant sum you probably are not eligible. NZ does not want you.

          Spain, Italy, France would have you. NZ probably won’t. And this is one of the ironies of an ‘Australian style’ immigration points system. Most of the people demanding such a thing would themselves never get sufficient points to ever be able to emigrate.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

        Well if you control rents and prevent people evicting tenants that is exactly what you are doing. Or if you force water and rail company’s shareholders to give up their shares (for fairly worthless Corbyn bonds) or demand 10% of company equity for workers… that is exactly what they are doing!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      Plus (not please)

    • Maid Marion
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

      Boris only said he would think about it, the TV licence . He clearly said he did not wish to put more money on the present pre-Election agenda. It’s a wonder the Labour Party have not got it in their manifesto plus a free telly and free laptop. There is still time.
      I bet they offer everyone a housemaid “for the many not the few”. It’ll be a year before they spot an error in that one and then say that it is “Still” a good idea and are not taking it off the table.

      • rick hamilton
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:39 am | Permalink

        Corbyn’s last throw of the dice might be to offer free holidays in North Korea on Wednesday evening. I can’t understand why Boris is so polite about this appalling throwback to the era of Scargill and Red Robbo.

        • Fred H
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

          More likely to be Shangri-La. Sounds quite attractive!

  2. Shirley
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    UK politics is in a dire state. Few take an interest. I am sure many politicians will take this as a sign of trust, but the opposite is true. For the last 40 years our democracy has been manipulated so as to reduce the power of the electorate. We have been given a choice of pro-EU parties only, until UKIP came along. The establishment banded together to discredit UKIP, and no doubt many other dirty deeds too as we have witnessed happen more openly over the past 3 years with Remainers using every dirty trick in the book to destroy democracy.

    It appears they are winning. The mainstream parties continue to ignore the voters and only offer us a choice of what the establishment wants. Boris’s WA2 is NOT Brexit, but the only alternative is Remain. The undemocratic EU has more far more influence in our politics than most people realise. Instead of the EU becoming more democratic, it has worked in reverse, and our politicians are only too eager to comply with the EU.

    The rot set in with Heath and Major (and other PM’s too) and too few other politicians were willing to stand up for democracy. It happened again with May and will happen again with Boris. Join any EU institution and say bye bye to democracy. Forever!

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:45 am | Permalink

      Another brilliant post Shirley stating how many oc us feel. As you say John I cannot remember a time when Labour did any thing constructive for this country. I am truly fearful of the results come Thursday and just pray the BP does well in the Labour strongholds so they can hold Boris to account.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:32 am | Permalink

        Well, here’s one: Freedom Of Information – the most anti-authoritarian law passed in my lifetime.

        Even the Tories and their media can’t find an excuse to put that djinni back in the lamp.

        It’s probably why the state-within-the-state have decided that there will never, ever, be another government like it in the UK, whatever the cost.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

          When have the Tories ever said they want to alter or revoke that act, martin?
          Are you making things up again?

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

            Well, just look at the voting records, and see who voted for, and who against that Act at the time eh?

          • Edward2
            Posted December 11, 2019 at 8:28 am | Permalink

            There is nothing in the Tory manifesto to alter anything in that act.
            You smear then run off.

      • Stuck up
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

        I feel many will still vote Labour in my rock solid Labour area. Ask them individually either side of an election and they will tell you more wrong about the Labour Party than is ever published or broadcast.
        There must be a reason people are stuck.

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:31 am | Permalink

          It’s because the name Thatcher is hated – a loathing passed from generation to generation. Young people don’t know why they hate it, they just do. Like some hate spiders for no personal reason.

          You would be forgiven for not knowing that The Lady was freely elected by thumping majority several times.

          The BBC described her as a *divisive* Prime Minister on her death. Well weren’t they all ???

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

            So was Tony Blair.

            Seems like a classic case of Projection to me.

          • Stuck up
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

            “It’s because the name Thatcher is hated”
            It could run deeper and along time’s edge

      • RichardM
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:20 am | Permalink

        Actually the majority don’t give a flying fig about leaving the EU. It’s you brexit cultists who are obsessed. Leave voters if they actually thought about it would prefer to save the 220 billion over 5 years that it’s going to cost, but have been brainwashed by the cult into believing there will be a dividend, and that the EU is to blame rather than the Tories for the national divide, when in fact it will result in less freedom, more beurocracy, and yet more poverty.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

          “… the 220 billion over 5 years that it’s going to cost …”

          Where did you get that number from, why do you assume that it is correct and merits repetition without a shred of supporting evidence, have you considered how would it compare to cumulative GDP over that period, or how it would compare to the long term trend rate of natural growth of the UK economy, and would anybody ever be able to look back and prove that it was correct, and if it does not turn out as you so confidently predict will you then copy Martin in Cardiff and pretend that it was not a prediction?

          “No, those things were not predicted.

          That is a silly, infantile, absolutist distortion of what was said.

          All that was said was that there was an unquantifiable increase in the probability of those things – and others – happening at some point after leaving the European Union.

          That is quite different.”

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted December 11, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

            Pity this has been left in moderation.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

          RchardM, Where did you get your magic “majority” from? Actually the majority of people I speak to on the streets are more bothered about being cheated out of Brexit than about any other issue.

          Nor do you have a shred of evidence to back up your statement that “Leave voters” (all of them?) would forego Leave for your imaginary £220bn cost. As for your precious concern for “the national divide”, all democratic votes divide the nation – that’s what they’re for.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

          Who says it is going to cost £220 billion over 5years?

          I note we have a new insult here from the remainers, we are all apparently brainwashed by a cult.
          One more to add to the long list of abuse.

          • bill brown
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:22 pm | Permalink


            as one sided as usual and as uninformed as well or should we just call it more abuse. (like the stories about the Turks and 350 million more a week for the NHS)

          • Edward2
            Posted December 11, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

            I am entitled to have a view.
            That is what politics and democracy is about bill.
            Turkey is being readied for membership.
            It is both their ambition and an ambition of the EU Commission
            The bus claim was proven in court not to be a lie.
            In fact we give more than £350 million a week to the EU and funding on the NHS has risen by more than that since the time that famous bus was wheeled out.
            Is that enough information for you?
            No answer to the £220 billion cost of leaving claim I note.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:11 am | Permalink

      “…many politicians will take this as a sign of trust.”

      What politicians think at this stage is irrelevant to democracy. They will think and believe whatever suits them. It’s what the people think and believe that will determine the nature of our democracy. Taking what you said yesterday about not voting playing into politicians hands, let me turn that on its head; people voting indicates to other people that the present options are sufficient.

      In elections, there are just a few headline statistics; percentage of the vote won by each party, number of MPs returned, and, albeit to a smaller degree, voter turnout. My suggestion is that, if the number of people NOT voting exceeds that of those voting for the winning party, then everyone may be forced to recognise that there is a democratic crisis. And an alternative party might be encouraged to emerge. It’s not a guaranteed winning formula, but it has to be better than voting Tory because they are supposedly the least worst option.

      This appoach has demonstrably failed, not least because they can then claim popular support, despite becoming a steadily worse option, which in turn encourages Labour to themselves grow steadily worse as they push and pull each other ever further left, and the state grows ever bigger.

      To continue doing the same thing by voting for the same parties but to expect change is definitively madness.

      PS Whilst voting for fringe candidates is legitimate, it does split the ‘disenfranchised’ vote. Those not voting at all are the far bigger, and therefore more eyecatching, number. Supporting that constituency is thus a more effective way of sending the message in my opinion.

    • Eh?
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

      “to reduce the power of the electorate.” How could it be reduced further than not honouring the answer to the question all MPs asked? Pretending it all never happened and we had all suffered a three year blackout and we had been in Intensive Care for three years?

    • BOF
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:59 am | Permalink

      Yes Shirley, even though I am conservative, voted for and in the past and had a Conservative MP, with a Conservative government, I am in no way represented.

      The party has become de facto socialist and intensely EUrophile, completely at odds with my core beliefs and those of most of my friends.

    • Oggy
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

      Exactly Shirley – an excellent post which accurately describes how many of us feel.

      Boris’ rehashed WA isn’t Brexit and he knows that himself, after all he did resign his ministerial post over virtually the same deal he now thinks is the best deal in the world. I and everyone I know will be voting for the BXP on Thursday.

      How different it could have been if the Tories had delivered a true meaningful Brexit.

  3. Mark B
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    And the Tory obsession with all things EU led to the 1992 economic crash, Black Wednesday and the ruination of many. And those responsible, as LL reminds us, have never apologised for this. And I repeat. Major, Clarke, Hurd and Heseltine all sat round a table in Admiralty House wondering what to do as the nation went down the pan. And three of those are still around trying to tell us what to do !

    I care not what Labour did or did not do in the past, it is what those who wish to form the next government will do in the future ? Currently all I am hearing is nonsense.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:49 am | Permalink

      If the ‘named’ individuals bother you, you could always put; Members of the Cabinet.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:21 am | Permalink

        Mark, Ken Clarke recently on TV dismissed this financial catastrophe where people lost their homes, jobs and business as trivia with throw away comments, like a forgotten blip in history, as if it did not matter and was forgotten. His only indignation was that Major wanted them to be together as a buy in for anything that went wrong so it would not be his soul responsibility! Is that leadership?

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

          They are disgusting, dishonest and disloyal people.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

          Hope, I’m not sure Major still has a “soul” any more – he may well have sold it to the EU sometime ago.

          • bill brown
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:19 pm | Permalink


            this is about as credible as you empire nonsense

          • Hope
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

            Predictive text, sorry. Sole. But your are right he does have morals, values or a soul.

  4. Ian Wragg
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    Taxes are at a record high. Government borrowing has doubled under your administration so there is nothing to be proud of.
    Immigration is at an all time high yet you still want our vote.
    Fool me once etc……..

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      True – but Labour/SNP/Green/Plaid/Libdims would clearly be far, far worse.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:23 am | Permalink

        LL, how?

        They would continue to apply EU rules. There is and has been no difference during the past forty years. JR, has agreed it has been a puppet parliament acting with small scope of the EU rules.

      • bigneil(newercomp)
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:59 am | Permalink

        And having to vote for the “least worst” – LL – is a VERY sad situation.

  5. agricola
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    The present Marxist/Labour party would move from a record of financial incompetence throughout their post war existance as a Labour party to a situation of absolute financial irresponsibility. They are the modern day financial drug addicts where reality goes out of the door to be replaced by even greater spending that leads to the collapse of the country.

    In addition their leadership would not pass the positive vetting to which government employees in senior positions are subject, to quote a recently retired head of MI5. He must be familiar with their files in MI5.

    Conclusion, the electorate would need to mad to elect them.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

      Agricola, It is highly unlikely that Labour will get an outright majority – almost impossible. What is much more likely is the Tories won’t get a majority whilst being the biggest party.

      In that event I think the price that Swinson and Sturgeon will extract for a Lab/SNP/LD coalition is the removal of Corbyn and McDonnell. That in itself will provoke some chaos because Labour is now riddled with Momentum.

      Even if the Tories gain an overall majority we are in for a rough ride. Both Remain and Momentum will continue their campaigns of lies, disinformation and even physical attacks. We’ve already witnessed it.

  6. Bob Dixon
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    This election has now shown new depths with Boris being shown a photo of a sick child. This was a stage set up.

    • Shirley
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

      That’s my opinion too. The media and politicians are so untrustworthy that we automatically suspect a staged photo. What a sad state of affairs!
      A guy on the BBC said today that politicians and the media should be held accountable to the same laws as businesses, ie. all adverts and other publications must be honest and not fraudulent. We need politics to be honest and transparent. Some hope! The ability to prosecute for fraud would make political parties more cautious and limit some of the outrageous lies.

      • The Prangwizard
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

        I can understand tbe frustration but I would not wish to see lawyers’ powers or their ability to pass judgment being further extended into politics. We have seen recently how damaging this can be since many and the judiciary are unable control their political ambition and agendas. Democracy will be further and dangerously eroded and placed into the power of the unaccountable.

        Be careful what you wish for.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      So you think that simply confronting a Prime Minister with the facts, as to what is happening under his watch in the country is “new depths”?

      Why, exactly, do you think that?

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

        Funny that the photo that didn’t appear was one of any night of the week in any A&E. The one showing drunks and druggies taken there because the police are no longer allowed to take them into custody. They are not even allowed to take them to A&E by police car such is the fear of death after police contact.

        If a space cannot be found for them then the ambulance must stay with them.

        It is also disturbing that our university-for-all education system is failing to produce the key workers we need and that we are still relying heavily on imported health professionals.

        My son only got one interview for med school (but got into the one university that bothered to look at him) and then shortly afterwards they made him a scholar. Otherwise med schools don’t seem to want his type in general (pun unintended.) He is a tiny minority on his course.

        Making him ready for interview took three years of voluntary work (Mum and Dad’s taxi), sports, DofE and UKCAT, BMAT and forecast top grades (which he got)

        Not good enough for most.

        3 out of 4 universities didn’t want to see him, so with that kind of filtering maybe it’s why we don’t have enough doctors that stay full-time for the full duration of their career.

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:15 am | Permalink

          By voluntary work I meant in care homes and work placements.

      • agricola
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

        Simple really. The suspicion is that the photograph was a set up, designed specifically to denigrate the PM. A bit of Black Propaganda. Even were it real it poses many questions. Seeing the number of tubes around the boy he had obviously been attended to. Who decided he was best left on the floor, doctor ,nurse, or administrator. Who permitted photographs of a patient to be taken while said patient was in the care of the hospital. Even were there no beds available in the whole hospital why couldn’t they find a mattress and a trolley. My suspicion is that had Corbyn been injured outside the hospital gate they would have quickly found a private room to keep him in and we would not have been shown a picture of him in trauma.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

          So, no evidence at all, then.

          • Edward2
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

            Agricola has explained it well.
            But there is no level of explanation nor evidence that would change your mind.
            The truth on this matter will eventually come out.

          • NickC
            Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

            Martin, Neither have you.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 11, 2019 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

            The premise of John’s post is that it was not a set-up job.

            Reply I did not mention a particular incident as I have no special knowledge of the circumstances

        • bill brown
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:18 pm | Permalink


          So you do really believe your own propaganda

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:59 am | Permalink

      Interestingly (looking at statistics) it seems that when doctors go on strike mortality rates nearly always fall and go up again when they resume their important “work”. Lots of examples.

    • Norman
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

      May be so, and the BBC are salivating over it. However, I think that many decent people can see what’s going on, and will come out on Boris’s side. At least he’s personable and human, and as such, does not pretend to immediately have all the answers (as ‘normal’ politicians do) . I doubt he’ll lose any votes over this, and may even gain some.

      • bill brown
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink


        Very sweet defence of Boris, just too bad about all his lies and non delivered promises in the past. Including on the NHS during the referendum

    • Irene
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

      It was not a ‘stage set up’ at all. it was genuine reporting, as it happened.

      • Lester Beedell
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

        It was a set up designed to embarrass Boris Johnson and you seem to have fallen for it!

      • roger
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

        This morning on radio five the BBC were flat out suggesting that the twitter reports of it being fake news were themselves fake news and that the BBC backroom were hard at work trying to discover who, including possibly ‘the Russians’ had made the first tweet portraying the whole story as fake news.
        Fast forward to BBC 1pm TV news and just a short reference to the original story and a vague reference to it’s rebuttal.
        This story is dying on it’s feet.

      • Bob
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:44 pm | Permalink


        If you really believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

      • Mitchel
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

        The Tories have made it worse for themselves by claiming one of their people was punched by a Labour activist afterwards-the photographic evidence proves otherwise.

    • cornishstu
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

      I believe the mother was seen by one of the nurses taking the child off of the trolley taking the picture then putting the child back on, though you are not likely to hear that on the BBC, as Norman says they, ‘are salivating over it’.

    • margaret howard
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

      Bob Dixon

      “. This was a stage set up.”

      If that is so it should be easy to prove. Why haven’t they?

  7. Lifelogic
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    I watched the Question Time (under 30s programme) last night. Seven on the panel one from the Greens, Libdims, Labour, SNP, Plaid, Conservative and Farage from Brexit. So five absurd socialists, pushers of climate alarmism and economic lunacy all wanting to defy the 17.4 million voters and remain in the EU. Then the socialists light Conservatives and their still rancid not leaving W/A.

    The one voice of reason Nigel Farage, climate and economic realist was endlessly shouted down by the others (mainly the dire Angela Rayner).

    • Richard1
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      It is an appalling programme. I gave up watching it several years ago.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

        OFCOM should examine QT, the panel choice, the company who selects the audience, the group seating of similar views etc. It is totally planned, researched and host primed to attack……an utter disgrace to unbiased television.
        Terminate BBC television, let them become pay-per-view.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

          They did not even find the ice sculptures and refusal to accept Gove on Ch. 4 to be biased!

      • graham1946
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:35 am | Permalink

        This one was a bit better than normal. I expected lefty climate alarmism all night, but there were some intelligent questions and some less intelligent answers. Rayner was particularly bad, shouting at Farage inches from his face, then complaining that someone had called Labour policies ‘loony’ and getting all insulted and huffy. Appalling woman.

    • DaveK
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

      Actually LL I was quite surprised that the audience were not as biased as usual and there was applause for the common sense answers and some good questions. The only disappointment was the almost total acceptance of the climate scam (probably due to the educational and media brainwashing). The presenter did disappoint in her inability to rein in Ms Rayner who constantly interrupted.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

        Indeed – on climate change the idea that CO2 is a thermostat on world temperatures is totally mad – as Corbyn’s brighter Imperial College Physicist brother and most sensible scientist understand very well.

        The Economist this week says CO2 extraction from the atmosphere will be difficult but required.

        The Economist is wrong as usual, it is very easy to extract C02 (but very expensive and pointless) so it will not be needed. Far better ways to cool the climate if needed but they probably will not even be needed anyway.

    • margaret howard
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 4:56 pm | Permalink


      “The one voice of reason Nigel Farage”

      He has tried and failed seven times to become an MP. It has gone some way to reassure me that the voting public can see through a snake oil salesman when they see one.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

        Margaret H, Unfortunately for you Nigel Farage is widely acknowledged, even by his political enemies, to have had a profound effect on British politics in the last decade. Much more so than the average backbench MP, or even most Ministers.

  8. Dave Andrews
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    I would like to know whether every administration, including Conservative, has left office with national debt interest payments higher than when they entered office.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

      Well as a % of GDP it did fall very slightly from 1997 for about four years. Other than that then, for the last thirty odd years, it has gone from just over 10% of GDP to nearly 90% of GDP. Yet Ministers still seem to claim they are “repaying the debt”. Might not be so bad but for the fact that most of the money is almost totally wasted – rather than being invested wisely.

      Investing wisely and efficiently, on sensible and needed things is something governments so rarely (if ever) do. Much is even spend doing positive harm or on inconveniencing the productive.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:11 am | Permalink

      Not always, I think, just looking at the table on pages 5 and 6 in this report:

      You would have to go through and pick out the years when each government entered and left office, but at a glance I would say that since the war there will have been some instances – not many, but some – where the annual interest payments had gone down both in nominal terms and as a percentage of GDP.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

        Cheers, Denis

  9. Mike Stallard
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    I am studying game theory at the moment and someone’s past record seems to be very important in games like chicken and GRIM. So, nice article – and I have lived through most of it and can remember how true it is/was.

  10. Andy
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    And the Tories know how to bring about social collapse.

    At the end of the Blair / Brown years our streets were largely free of homeless people. Not under the Tories.

    Children – even poor ones – all had reasonable opportunities through things like Sure Start. Not under the Tories.

    Under Labour the poor and disabled could afford to eat. Under the Tories there are food banks. A sign, according to some candidates, of people who are not very good with money.

    With Labour sick children would be properly treated in hospital. Under the Tories 4-year-olds with pneumonia are made to sleep on hospital floors. And when the Tory prime minister is shown a picture of it, he snatches the reporter’s phone and puts it is his pocket. What a predictably out-of-touch multi-millionaire posh boy response.

    Even under Corbyn Labour at least has a moral code. The Tories have long since lost theirs. Mrs May once said that some people called the Conservatives ‘the nasty party’. Pretty much everyone calls them this nowadays.

  11. Richard1
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    It is amazing that as many as 30% are thinking of voting Labour when eg the Simon Wiesenthal Centre has just slammed Labour under Corbyn for doing more than anyone anywhere to normalise anti-semitism in a democracy (a fact unreported on the BBC as far as I can see). That’s the world’s leading organisation dedicated to hunting down Nazi perpetrators of the holocaust describing the UK’s official opposition as “the biggest global threat to Jews”. You really have to pause for thought.

    Then there are the ludicrous economic policies involving arbitrary confiscation, massive borrowing, punitive taxation (can there really be anyone who thinks the ‘top 5%’ will carry it all?!), relentless anti-business rhetoric, foolish nationalisations etc etc, all of which will make people poorer and public services worse.

    Voting Labour in this election is immoral.

  12. Everhopeful
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Wouldn’t it Be lovely if Boris won and the Tories came to their senses?
    A huge purge of all those who have been working against the country.
    A nice, proper Brexit.
    A real conservative Conservative Party that appreciated its loyal members.
    An end to political correctness and cultural Marxism.
    A return to manners and the society Mrs T denied.
    Uncrowded roads, controlled immigration, no green rot ….
    Oh dear…I woke up!!!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      Everhopefull indeed.

    • rose
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

      Mrs T didn’t deny society in the sense you mean, only the trick people had then of blaming everything on something they called “Society” and not understanding how it was composed or worked. It was very prevalent then, and infuriating. After that, people stopped doing it, so no-one knows what she meant any more. She actually meant what you mean.

  13. Lifelogic
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    As you say “every Labour government apart from the first short lived minority one has left office with unemployment up on where it started”. Indeed and with the particularly absurd Corbyn/Mc Donnall/SNP policies we would get this in spades and in double quick time.

    Just the threat of Corbyn/SNP is already killing investment and destroying jobs. Look at the large deficit of the Scottish Economy under the very damaging SNP policies.

  14. Kevin
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Unless the Conservatives seize the opportunity to join forces with the Brexit Party, Labour will continue to be the only way to remove the Conservatives from office when a majority of the public have finally had enough of them – whether that is this Thursday or in 2024. In the last Parliament, we did not need Boris Johnson to defeat Jeremy Corbyn – we needed him to defeat Theresa May. When he finally did, what did he do? He carried on with her Withdrawal Agreement because “returning were as tedious as go o’er”. Democracy demands the existence of a political opposition. The Conservatives have a chance to change the nature of that opposition so that we are not presented with the “depressing pattern” to which you refer. Instead, Mr. Johnson wants to put Nigel Farage “back in his box” – the only party leader that I have seen conduct himself in a statesmanlike manner during this campaign.

  15. nshgp
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    14,000 trillion owed for pensions rising at 17.5%.
    What have the Tories done about that? Nothing
    What can you do that doesn’t screw us? Nothing

  16. George Brooks
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Labour buy votes, Conservatives try to earn them with reason, which is why we sway back and forth over the years and if it wasn’t for Brexit we would be heading back into economic mayhem once again.

    This time the Lib/Dems, SNP, Greens and the other parties are all trying their best to take us back into a hung parliament which would ruin this country and it’s economy.

    All Leavers must vote Conservative and so must all ‘light’ remainers as this is the only route out of this ghastly mess. Also if one thinks about it, it is the only way to repair the NHS as Corbyn has not got the slightest vestige of a plan.

    Boris is being hammered because ”one-track-May” was concentrating on screwing up Brexit and doing precious little else. Some people are incapable of multi-tasking and we are now suffering for those two years of neglect.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      Your obliviousness to the reality of the Conservative party is remarkable. Not sure why anyone should take seriously the opinion of someone who clearly hasn’t been paying attention.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

      George B, It wasn’t “two years of neglect”, it was three years. And it wasn’t “neglect”, it was deliberate. Theresa May deliberately set in train a second Brexit plan which she kept hidden even from her own Ministers. She must therefore have lied to those Ministers at least by omission if not directly.

  17. Norman
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    An observation on the wider political scene, if I may please, John.
    There are 3 nations in the world today upon whose value systems democracy and freedom are founded. They are the UK, the US, and Israel. Currently we see all 3 under siege from destructive ‘leftist’ forces. If only the people knew why, and what is really going on!

  18. Anonymous
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    They know how to borrow too much whilst throttling the goose !

  19. Newmania
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    he 1997-2010 Labour government lasted longer because for the first few years it followed inherited Conservative spending and tax plans which worked.

    John Major`s spending plans to be exact; a politician Sir John Redwood feels has no place in the Conservative Party. During the entire Blair period borrowing did not exceed 35% . It is now well over 80% of GDP and forecast to get into the 90s under Johnsons meandering opportunistic mess of a plan , a level not seen since the mid sixties when France an Germany sped past rip off Britain , the sick man of Europe
    The reference to to PFIs is presumably a rhetorical fig leaf to cover the shame of this thread bare argument . Whilst PFI`s may be high profile borrowing the extent of them was insignificant in terms of overall debt
    The lesson of History is that Major and Blair presided over fiscal continence as did George Osborne . Leaving John Redwood in charge of National borrowing is leaving a dog in charge of the sausages.

    • Richard1
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

      Its extraordinary how even educated people get into such a muddle over debt.

      In the fist place debt equal to about 20% of GDP is held by official bodies – like a company owning its own bonds – due to QE. Net debt therefore is about 65% of GDP.

      In the second place it is indeed true that in each year since 2010 total debt has increased – because there has been a deficit. But the deficit – thanks to Labour – got to over 10% of GDP. Under the Coalition & Tories it has come down to under 2% – and without the recession so confidently predicted by left-leaning experts, BBC fact checkers etc. So the lesson is don’t get to a massive deficit in the first place – it cant be reversed overnight.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

        Richard1, Well said.

        • Newmania
          Posted December 11, 2019 at 9:19 am | Permalink

          Richard -even educated people get into such a muddle over debt.

          Quite, although if you have any background in this subject it is far from obvious.
          The suggestion that QE could be written off and the UK officially go into the money printing business is not one that has any currency outside this blog. It would render any future fiscal discipline “soft” tip the UK`s creditors into panic and mean that any discussion of affordability was redundant as we could simply print some more cash.
          Be serious.

          I am well aware of the causes of the raging deficits of post 2008. Nonetheless we at least started from a position of relative fiscal strength . Risk has not left the system , now we are scheduled to reach historically high debt levels 95% of GDP. What about the unknown – the experts you despise got it most wrong when they were too optimistic

          I am discussing Debt levels not deficit levels which are affected by growth as well as spending ( we mostly grew rather than cut ) and can , as we have seen change dramatically.
          We are coming out of an artificial consumer bubble created to stave of the dismal prospects of Brexit facing a global slow down driven in part by the beggar thy neighbour populism of which Brexit is part.
          That slow down will immediately impact deficit levels and so , above all will the slow down in economically productive immigration ( so says the treasury whose opinion I value ). Either we face cuts tax rises or more borrowing all thanks to Brexit . Political unpopularity ,as we see, is no longer an option for the new breed of irresponsible yes men who have literally thrown anyone who could count out of the Party- leaving a sad selection of cretins ( frankly)
          George Osborne`s planned retrenchment and base rate normalisation had to be abandoned post referendum as the economy tipped into recession Brexit is already a generational theft form our children by the old

          Don`t get me started …..basically

      • Mitchel
        Posted December 11, 2019 at 11:51 am | Permalink

        “like a company owning it’s own bonds”

        Actually it’s not “like” at all-companies can’t print their own money to buy their own bonds.

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

      So close to a general election you bat for Corbyn, who would be like a hungry boa constrictor in charge of the dog !

      Sir John is trying to stop people like me staying at home.

  20. majorfrustration
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    For Labour project fear is the NHS. Why not transfer the Foreign Aid Budget of £7billion over and when that proves insufficient close the Army followed by the RAF and Navy and when that proves insufficient close the Home Office and then gradually work our way thro the rest of Whitehall – there is bound to come a time when the NHS has enough money surely.

  21. Ian @Barkham
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Labour is summed up with a comment attributed to Diane Abbot (true or false, I don’t know – but it says it all about Labour) ‘Labour will borrow all the money it needs to bring down the National Debt!’

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

      Sounds rather like just the sort of thing she might say!

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

      possibly does it with her credit cards – works fine….

  22. glen cullen
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    It should be made into law that nether local or national government can barrow money

    They have a ready source of income its called taxation

  23. Ian @Barkham
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    This election offers a simple binary choice, freedom under the Conservative or punitive punishment under the Metro Marist Labour.

    It is bizarre that some people believe there is alternatives to the above choice. The problem with that thought is all the leaders of the alternative groupings and their candidates, are first of the socialist left, then have already shown their willingness to have a Corbyn Labour Government in power.

    If you vote and don’t vote Conservative, what ever alternative Party you wish to call it you have voted for a Metro Marxist Labour Party. I have said it that way deliberately as this London Marxist grouping called Labour has none of the traits of the Workers Party in what used to be Labour heartlands, under Corbyn it is a different more threatening Cabal.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

      Wow. I must have misunderstood what freedom means. Unless you’re talking absolute rot, and I myself do in fact understand what freedom is. Yes, that’s what it is. You’re talking nonsense. Glad to have cleared that up.

  24. Denis Cooper
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    If Boris Johnson loses this election over the image of a sick boy on a hospital floor then he can lay the blame on George Osborne:

    “The Tories are only vulnerable on this issue because of their failure to impress on the public that Labour totally wrecked the government’s finances. Which abject and hugely damaging propaganda failure started when George Osborne was the shadow Chancellor. I commented about this again and again to no avail, and I don’t suppose that it will make any difference now, but here is a small sample of those comments just on this blog … ”

    And I am quite sure that George Osborne would be very happy to see Boris Johnson lose the election, even if he kept his joy to himself and maybe a few likeminded close friends and fellow europhiles such as David Cameron.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

      It’s interesting you say Osborne would be pleased to see BJ fail. I think you’re right, but not because Osborne doesnt like BJ’s politics, but because BJ is PM and not George himself. All these Tory ‘wars’ are largely personal feuds. That’s why May’s treaty was considered to be so awful, but BJ’s treaty, despite being the same thing, is wonderful. It is truly pathetic.

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

      You’ve got to wonder Denis why the Tories do just take this sh*t. The NHS budget has risen in real terms every year since 2010. However, it rose only 1.1 per cent annually under the coalition and 2.3 per cent annually since then, well below the long-term average of 3.7 per cent. This is after Labour screwed up the economy ‘ad spent all the money’ and we were breaching EU debt and deficit targets so GEORGE OSBORNE said!

      I read there was a 29 per cent rise of emergency admissions on October 2019 in comparison to 2010 was this the increase at Leeds too? Why are the numbers increasing so high, what is the increase in relation to population increase in the area, have GP practices cut more out of hours services locally, investigate?

      Boris isn’t the Leeds hospital Chief of Staff, who is in charge there? How much are they paid? How many members of staff do they employ in A&E on that busy shift, how many agency staff were on that shift? How many people were treated that evening? How many beds to they have? What is the average numbers for that shift? How many members of staff were on holiday or absent, was cover arranged or do they normally cope short-staffed in the busy winter season (in my busy winter season I ask workers not to take holidays but have them when we are quieter, managing a rota is a tremendous task and perhaps someone isn’t up to it at Leeds).

      How much is this Leeds hospital given to operate with each year? How does this compare with previous years? How does their service level compare to a similarly sized hospital elsewhere? If I were Boris and I was taking the flack for this I’d be over this like a rash. Is this an A&E that has the out of hours GP service in it? Was the child seen by a GP first? Were they directed to A&E by their GP or the Helpline? If I were Boris I’d give a commitment if re-elected to investigate hospital A&E departments where patients are left on the floor with breathing masks on!
      Check where best practices are and properly look at the Management.

  25. Lifelogic
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Charles Moore is sound as usual today in the Telegraph. On Defence, Joe Swinson, John Major’s abject foolishness and food banks. Exactly right on all four.

  26. The Prangwizard
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    I’ve seen this myself. We often see infrastucture improvements under the Tories and would sight the railways as one lately only to see a freeze under an incoming Labour administration. For quite a while no-one notices because as it takes many years for existing contracts to complete and the improvements that have been made to wear out, so Labour live off the fat so to speak.during which time their wrecking plans can be put in place. Again these are not noticed so the rot can takes place out of sight for many years.

  27. Alison
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Lifelogic – killing investment – the SNP is already doing it. The SNP is doing a great job of persuading the Scottish voter not to vote for it. Unfortunately, at the same time we’re at the receiving end. The headline areas are education and health – yet more health scandals emerged this weekend. Youth employment (though the SNP tried to fudge that news).
    Almost every day I read about investment into England, in manufacturing, fintech, aviation .. Once in a blue moon, there is a small investment in Scotland. Last two cases were not foreign investment, but expansion of facilities by a big Scottish firm.

    Sir John, re getting Brexit done – can I note that there are at least 150 Tory PPCs who are pro-remain, some clearly strongly so. And the WA and PD are not at all good.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

      I see that Scottish schools are getting much worse too. Is this perhaps due to the brighter Scots all leaving and taking their children with them?

  28. Kenneth
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Not only does Labour follow disastrous financial policies, it always creates complicated systems of dishing out taxpayer money via the benefits system or various quangos.

    This ALWAYS ends up with those who can “play the system” getting free taxpayer money while the hard working poor just get poorer.

    Just as the word “democrat” no longer applies to the LibDems, the word “labour” is also a misnomer when those who labour long and hard have the most to fear from a Corbyn government.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      Have you not noticed that this is exactly what the Tories do as well?!

  29. Brigham
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    I don’t know why everybody is against Labour getting into power. John McDonnell has explained how the finances will work, and if he gets into difficulties he can always hand over the financial reins to Dianne Abbot.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

      Yes I think she has some way of getting new police officers to work for nothing – she is just great with number and logic!

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

      Brigham – – Corbyn might be just fine. I do have slight anxiety that when he cycles to Buck House for his meetings with Her Maj, he might forget to take off his Lenin/Mao cap and leave his cycle clips on his tucked in trousers. Otherwise all okay.

  30. graham1946
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    You mention PFI as ‘lumbering public services with large debts’. That is true and the answer is simple – take them on to the government ledger and free up the NHS for instance to pay for the services it provides, rather than a high interest rate for city spivs. They have decades to go yet on them and they are draining vital resources.

    True, we had a lovely hospital built on PFI, rather like a futuristic air port instead of the old Victorian workhouse image we had before, but at the cost of treatments cut, nurses cut, doctors cut. ‘Nice building, pity we can’t afford to treat you but have a nice flat white at one of the shops’ whilst you wait for a few months’ seems to be management’s answer.

    I would suggest the government could borrow to clear the debts at virtually negative interest rates (otherwise why are you promising all the goodies in the election), certainly less than the usurious rates being paid currently. If you don’t want to do that, how about a bit of Quantitative Easing – it would be a mere fraction of what was done for the banks. Or is it only bailing out the City which the Tories are interested in and public services can just go hang?

  31. Iain Gill
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Boris going off message about the BBC is probably the best thing the Conservatives have done in this election campaign. Shame there is not more stuff like this.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      Almost certainly deflection. That said, perhaps the Tories, if they win, will throw the BBC to the wolves, and whilst the wolves are feasting on their fresh meat they won’t notice that BJ is selling the country down the river.

      PS Personally, I believe the license fee/tax should be abolished, for reasons of principle. Whatever reasons BJ might have, they’re not born out of principle.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

      Indeed the Conservatives should be pointing out the massive left wing BBC bias and endless propaganda they issue every day.

      I greatly dislike Greg Clark – but in his favour he did at least kill the Swansea “Lagoon” lunacy. Let us hope the project is not revived (the numbers simply make no sense) and by a huge margin – it even makes the basket case HS2 – look good by comparison! Let private investors fund it if they are daft enough to want to.

  32. ukretired123
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Labour forget Ed Balls ‘ endogenous growth theory didn’t pan out.
    Our greatest chancer Gordon (benett) over-cooked borrowing billions.
    Labour want to get the Guinness book of records trillion debt to show Venezuela how to proceed in the ” race to the bottom ” as Corbyn accuses Tories of!
    Austerity is caused by Labour
    But they never have to clean up after their mess (correction, serial messes) big-time!
    You couldn’t make it up.
    Meanwhile if kids are to vote they should be taught modern economic just beforehand.

    • The Prangwizard
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

      We must not forget that Labour is now in the grip of revolutionary Marxists. They have fooled many into thinking their plans are largely harmless but they intend to carry out their revolution and everyone will be hurt. It would not surprise me if McDonnell, within minutes of acquiring the power to do so, were to impose severe exchange controls.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

      Indeed Labour actually have an incentive to leave as bigger economic mess as possible for the next government (once they feel their time is up) then they get all the blame and have have difficulty showing a turnaround in the five years they have. So that is what Labour do.

      But then with essentially soft socialist, pro EU, climate alarmist, tax to death, expensive energy, red tape spewing governments and Chancellors and PMs like Major, Cameron, Osborne, May & Hammond they do not even try very hard.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 10, 2019 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

        Last time Labour damagingly put top rate income tax up from 40% to 50% the economic illiterates Osborne and Hammond retained it (50% or now 45%). This despite the fact that this does huge economic damage and raises less tax too. Hammond even put it up to well over 100% for some landlords (or with the bonkers pension contribution rules).

        This while he claimed to be cutting taxes! Thank goodness these people have gone.

  33. Simeon
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    I think you’ll find the USA have the national debt record sewn up for the forseeable 😉

  34. Lester Beedell
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    Be careful what you wish for, they said Boris Johnson couldn’t get a deal….. he got a deal…. then it wasn’t the deal we wanted, put him back as PM and then you can criticise him if he doesn’t come up to expectations, until then back Boris!

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

      I didn’t, still don’t, want a surrender. The ‘deal’ is not a deal it is simply accepting submission on many points. And we will still be paying the EU for the privilege.

  35. NigelE
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    You say ‘sensible’, I say ‘indefensible’: let’s call the whole thing off!.

  36. Duncan
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Yeah- but we need a change- the conservatives have had a good run at it now for nine years or so and we have not seen all that much improvement in economy as far as the people are concerned- only higher and higher cost of living while the wages remain stagnant and now these stories about the NHS failures together with 5000 foreign nurses already departed- we really need to get a grip on what we’re at and where we’re going- time for a change

  37. Lester Beedell
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    And for all those planning not to vote spare a thought for the millions who fought and in many instances died to give you the right to vote also the students in Hong Kong who are dying for their Democracy, people here have obviously forgotten just how important Democracy is if they’re prepared to dismiss it without so much as a thought
    It speaks volumes about our society!

    • Oggy
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      Democracy only works when politicians do what the electorate instructs them, but for the last 3.5 years, a good majority of UK politicians have undermined democracy, so one can understand people’s frustration with them.

  38. margaret howard
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    I have never voted Labour but am grateful to a party that has done so much to make our daily life so superior to anything that has gone before. From the health service to social security, to council housing, Open University etc, even the abolition of the death penalty, they have all been Labour inspired leading to the kind of society we value so much today.

    All the Tories have ever done is looking after their own upper strata of society expecting the rest of the citizens to be grateful for the few crumbs that fall off their table.

    Why do so many voters still fall for it?

    • Edward2
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

      Since 1945 we have had an almost even split of years of Labour and Conservative government.
      Therefore the praise for the enormous improvements in standards of living and life expectancy should logically be shared between them.
      Democracy is about tolerating other people’s opinions.

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

      I take it you are still waiting for an outright Communist Party candidate where you live?

    • Lester Beedell
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

      How has the abolition of the death penalty improved our lives, all the liberal relaxation of our values have done nothing to improve our society
      Respect for the forces of Law and Order are at an all time low, I was talking to a female prison officer and she was about to resign because she was fed up with being abused by the prisoners with no form of redress

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

      Do you live in a Labour controlled Council ward? County?

    • Be Careful!
      Posted December 11, 2019 at 12:31 am | Permalink

      You do not live in a grateful Council House on a grateful Council Housing Estate, that is clear.
      Things are not all they seem.

  39. Headsup
    Posted December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Today’s prize goes to Tim Martin Wetherspoons who’s company is on for spending millions to open forty or fifth new pubs- Tim understands that when the smoke clears from all of this brexit there will likely be millions more out of work so where else will they want to spend their time than in a Wethetspoons- smart man Tim

    • Edward2
      Posted December 11, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

      You claimed millions would lose their jobs if we dared to vote to leave in Project Fear 1.0
      That we can see never happened.
      In fact unemployment fell.

  40. Edwardm
    Posted December 11, 2019 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    The Conservative party should make it clear that
    Many, probably most Conservative party members are ordinary working people.
    The vast majority of Conservative voters are ordinary working people, and they use the NHS.
    The NHS has been enhanced and in Conservative hands far more years than in Labour.
    The Conservative party is not going to diminish the NHS and upset its voters.

    Austerity was caused by Labour – so it is their austerity. It is easy to upset the economy, but it takes a long time to put it right.

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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