More lock downs?

Today if the government proposes more lock downs it needs to answer these questions:

  1. Why have cases risen for so long in places already under local lock downs?
  2. What is the exit strategy from lock down, and how do you avoid growth in the virus again if lock downs work?
  3. Is there local buy in to the lock down, as it needs consent to work.
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364 Comments

  1. Stephen Priest
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    No lockdown Sweden deaths (Worldometers) 7 day rolling average – 1 a day

    Lockdowns don’t work

    Lockdowns don’t work

    • Andy
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:11 am | Permalink

      Sweden: Population 10m. Deaths 6,000.

      New Zealand: Population 5m. Deaths 25.

      It seems some lockdowns do work. But that not all lockdowns are the same.

      • Ian Wragg
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:21 am | Permalink

        These lockdowns have been planned for weeks as I keep telling you.
        The second lockdown is to justify the first one. Boris is in hoc to the chief idiots and can’t lose face by admitting he’s backed the wrong horse.
        Destroying peoples livelihoods is a price worth paying rather than admitting being wrong.

        • JoolsB
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:29 am | Permalink

          +1 Ian. It’s all about saving face and nothing to do with common sense and why the arrogant, authoritative hapless Hancock is still in place says a lot about Johnson’s judgement and whether he’s fit to be PM.

          • Hope
            Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:04 am | Permalink

            In answers to JR’s question the Govt. has not had a coherent or cogent strategy from the outset. Flipflop nonsense with fact science or accurate numbers. Disgraceful. Time for social disobedience. The plans are far worse than the disease.

            New York studies adequately show lock down did not work at all.

            Johnson govt is not fit for purpose. The Sun adequately demonstrates the economic havoc and social destruction brought about by Johnson. He must go. That is our only hope to repair the damage he has done in 9 months.

            People wanted a change from a dishonest career politician as they did in the US. Unfortunately Johnson is not fit for public office.

          • Stephen Priest
            Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:45 am | Permalink

            Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

            You can find it on Bing

          • Hope
            Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

            JR your questions are unnecessary. But they do prove the govt has a complete failure in public health policy:
            1. Failed to prepare for pandemic under Civil
            2. Contingency Act- Cygnus demonstrates this.
            3. Lock down was to cut spread of disease and allow better preparation- it failed on every level.
            4. 3week lock down announced by Johnson lasted for over three months.
            5. Test and trace has still not been reliably established. No accurate figures of any sort provided to the nation.
            6. Country heading towards bankruptcy without a cogent or coherent plan.
            7. No minister or top advisor resigned or sacked? Why? Johnson, Witty and Hancock all caught the disease by failure to to implement their own rules!
            8. More Ministers and advisors flouted the law and rules- Ferguson and Jenrick- no action taken!
            9. Discredited Van Dam giving more warnings today! Can he remember his advice on masks!
            9. Govt should Get out or be booted out we cannot afford their stupidity.

        • glen cullen
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:32 am | Permalink

          +1

        • cynic
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

          Yes. It appears that the Government and their advisors are now panicking about what didn’t happen and need to show that it was their actions that saved us all.

      • Richard1
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:44 am | Permalink

        North Korea: Population 25m. Deaths 0

        Irrelevant comparison

      • Northern Monkey
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:03 am | Permalink

        If you live on an island, 5,000 miles away from your nearest neighbour, have a largely agricultural economy ensuring food self-sufficiency, have few major conurbations and are in the southern hemisphere away from the northern temperate zone which was particularly affected in the first wave, then, yes, a lockdown might work for you, at least in the short-term, in the initial phase of the pandemic.

        Otherwise lockdowns are, at best, a very short-term measure to spread out your infection case load, which is why the WHO now does not recommend lockdown as a strategy.

        • NickC
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

          Northern Monkey, To give Boris credit today, he sounded suitably sonorous but didn’t impose anything more than has been implemented already over the last couple of weeks. It was not a full national lockdown. It seems he has listened to the thousands of medical and scientific professionals who have proved that full lockdowns may flatten the peak, but cannot halt the virus. I think Boris did pretty well, actually. On the Mark Littlewood IEA scale, I’d give him an 8 this time.

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:49 am | Permalink

            I don’t think Boris is the problem on communication, I believe the problem is the local news stations.

            I don’t watch C4 news but there was a tweet shared yesterday of one reporter interviewing another reporter about restrictions in Manchester and Liverpool and she just seemed confused and lacked clarity. She really shouldn’t do the job if she can’t disseminate quite simple information. Nor did she get over to the public the fact that people from the Liverpool highest alert area shouldn’t visit other families inside or outside, nor should they travel outside of their area.

      • Roy Grainger
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:07 am | Permalink

        Brexiter Andy recommending we permanently seal all our borders with the EU.

        • NickC
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

          Roy, Yes, sealed borders from Andy, that’s ironic, isn’t it?

      • James Bertram
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:30 am | Permalink

        Important difference, Andy.
        Sweden now has herd immunity and people can get on with their lives. New Zealand hasn’t; they’ve just postponed the inevitable reckoning with this virus.

        But you make a good point which is, it seems that if you can lockdown effectively before the virus is widespread within the community, then you can buy some time to put in place measures to protect the elderly and vulnerable (particularly those in Care Homes) whilst, soon after, slowly opening up to allow the young and healthy to build herd immunity – However, this is a Lockdown that should be for no more than a few weeks, otherwise the collateral damage from such a policy is catastrophic (as our government well knew – Prof. Vallance admitted in July that he received a government report in April that up to 200,000 people could die in the UK as a result of Lockdown).

      • Stephen Priest
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:45 am | Permalink

        New Zealand as now a large prison camp.

        Freedom is a right not a privilege

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:22 am | Permalink

          Rubbish.

          You can go to pubs, to sports, and to entertainment events pretty normally there, unlike here.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

            You switched the argument as usual Martin.

            Entry to New Zealand is currently closed to almost all arrivals.

          • NickC
            Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

            Martin, NZ borders are closed – a policy you opposed.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:49 am | Permalink

        We were locked down for sixteen (yes 16 weeks) Andy.

        • Andy
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

          We locked down too late because in January and February – when they should have been preparing for Covid – your government was preoccupied with your Brexit. As it has been for four years.

          Had they not been preoccupied with your Brexit for all that time – and had they not replaced all the competent ministers with incompetent Brexiteers then we would have locked down earlier. The virus would not have spread so much first, we would not have had such a disaster in our care homes and our economy would not be in such a mess.

          But – something or other about fish and foreigners.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:41 am | Permalink

            There hardly any cases in January.
            You are being silly.

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:54 am | Permalink

            Not every region and area Andy, there were many regions in the UK that actually locked down early. The main outbreak was in London, so Scotland for example locked down a couple of weeks earlier and would have supported your argument but it didn’t, the virus ran its course all around the UK.

            The whole government wasn’t preoccupied with Brexit. What has Matt Hancock and his team done about Brexit? What did Sage have to do with Brexit. Boris hasn’t dealt with Brexit he delegated it and kicked the can down the road.

            The average age of death was reported recently as 82 – the decision to send people out of hospitals was taken by the medical profession. The people we trust to care for us and the advisors to the government. There were many great care homes who looked after and protected ALL their residents I think we should hear more about them instead of your focus on fish and foreigners I think we should look at was succeeded as a priority to replicate.

          • NickC
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 11:31 am | Permalink

            Andy, It was you who was preoccupied with Brexit, going on and on about “supply chains” (even though we told you that supply chains were global and not confined to the EU), whilst ignoring the oncoming covid19 pandemic. At that time all you did was condemn border lockdowns as “xenophobic” – even though they’ve worked for Japan and New Zealand. Ironically you now support them.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:24 am | Permalink

        It’s worth looking at how Covid-19 deaths are certified by each country.

        UK – Any death within 28 days of a positive test.
        NZ & AUS – Disease or condition leading directly to death – Covid 10 days.
        Sweden – seems to be roughly within 30 days, but they use other metrics as well to decide if the actual case of death was Covid.

      • Ed M
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:35 am | Permalink

        I think the Swedes were a bit gung-ho / bravado (it might work out for them in the long-term – but that will be due more to luck than smartness). Smart people whether in business or the military try and work out on earth is going on before plunging forwards.

        But we now know a lot more about coronavirus, and I think the Dutch approach now is the best. They’ve had time to work things out, and realised that excess lockdown / precaution is hugely damaging to the economy (which in the long-term means even more deaths from non-related coronavirus) plus our treatment for coronavirus is now significantly better (but way to go).

        So not surprising to see that Netherlands is the new Sweden at moment when it comes to coronavirus – difference being, the Dutch were smart enough to wait and see what’s going on – and now they’re plunging on with not allowing coronavirus to plunge their economy (and how this could lead to many people dying from non-coronavirus-related illnesses).

      • Ed M
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:43 am | Permalink

        Saying that, i think the government could get people to do the basics better.

        I was in the airport over summer, where I noticed hardly any men in the toilets washed their hands.

        When you’re in somewhere like the airport, you should wash your hands whenever the opportunity arises – but if lots of people aren’t even doing this after using the toilets for whatever then you got a bit of a problem here – and government needs to do far more (mainly via strong advertising i think) – otherwise the pandemic will really spike and cause lots of fear and cripple our economy because lots of people aren’t taking basic, sensible precautions.

        • Ed M
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:43 am | Permalink

          ‘When you’re in somewhere like the airport, you should wash your hands whenever the opportunity arises’ – to stop the spread of the virus.

        • Longus
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

          Perhaps travelling outside the UK increases the risk of contracting Covid so you should not visit airports?

      • David L
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:42 am | Permalink

        Peru..strict lockdown 40 Covid deaths per million population (as at 9th Oct)
        Brazil..no lockdown 42 Covid deaths per million population (also at 9th Oct).
        Something is very wrong. Our government and its advisors will have no credibility soon…then what?

      • Stephen Priest
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

        This was recommended by Peter Hitchens

        Amnesty International Care Home Report

        It can be found on Google

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

        Andy, New Zealand locked down its borders – a policy which you vehemently condemned, calling the person who suggested it for us back in March (me) xenophobic.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

      Lockdowns largely delay they do not really solve the problem. The delay produced by the first wave lockdown was very sensible to allow the NHS to get ready. It they are not ready now they dire state monopoly never will be. At least we now have some better treatments.

      The benefits of lockdown now are more than outweighed by their huge costs. This in economic terms, collateral heath problems and quality of life. It makes no sense at all now.

      • Ed M
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

        Well said.

    • Peter Parsons
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      From the same website:

      Sweden – 583 deaths per million
      Norway – 50 deaths per million
      Finland – 62 deaths per million

      Who has got it more right? Sweden or Sweden’s neighbours?

      • Edward2
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

        You are not making the correct comparison .
        Try UK Germany France Spain Italy.

        • Peter Parsons
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 8:31 am | Permalink

          Why? Surely similar countries (Scandanavia, one large conurbation and the rest of the population distributed) should be compared with each other.

          The others you list all have much larger populations, and many more large cities, but, if you insist, Germany currently has 114 deaths per million.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

            Sweden is far more like the nations I mentioned than the other ones you want to compare them with.
            Big densely populated cities big international airports multi ethnic diverse populations too.
            Germany has done well
            Their health service worked better than ours.
            And they used private firms for PPE and testing quickly.

          • Peter Parsons
            Posted October 14, 2020 at 8:28 am | Permalink

            Rubbish. Sweden has a population density of 23 people per square kilometre. The UK has 272, Germany 232, Italy 200, France 118 and Spain has 92. Finland and Norway, at 16 and 14, are much closer.

            The largest population area is Stockholm, with about 1.5 million people, the second largest is Gothenburg with about 600,000 (smaller than Bristol).

            For comparison, the Reading area (23rd biggest in the UK) has a larger population than all but 2 areas of population in Sweden (Stockholm and Gothenburg).

      • cornishstu
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

        One explanation is the number of respiratory/ flu deaths in the preceding year both Norway and Finland’s figures were consistent with previous years, Sweden along with most of Europe had a mild flu season so plenty of weak and infirm fodder when covid hit, unlike the previous where they had already fallen to flu. Check out Ivor Cummins viral issue crucial update 8th Sept

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

        Peter P, It’s not over yet. Those who died, or will die earlier, because of the lockdown do not appear to count with you. The economic damage because of lockdown has been devastating.

      • Stephen Priest
        Posted October 13, 2020 at 4:11 am | Permalink

        Of course Italy – who had an earlier, much stricter lockdown than Austria of Switzerland also had a much higher death rate.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:20 am | Permalink

      Lockdowns are an emergency measure of last resort, or when you are doing nothing else.

      Materially, the Government are the latter.

      The testing system is unreliable, confusing, and patchy.

      The tracing system is ineffective.

      There is no proper support for people self-isolating, and the general public apathy has been encouraged by the Tory media, as well as by the personal conduct of prominent government figures. So most whom it concerns simply do not do it.

      General misinformation about the necessity of masks, of hygiene, and of avoiding personal encroachment has been endemic in the right wing press.

      The public’s behaviour re the virus in this country has been dreadful, but understandably so given the foregoing.

      However, when you stupify a population, to the extent that they will vote for such politicians as now form the Government, it is hardly surprising that they will not act wisely when faced with whatever problem either.

      • Bill B.
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

        ‘Public apathy’?? Surveys said we had the most fearful population in Europe, scared rigid of Covid thanks to your ‘Tory media’!

        It’s the PCR test that’s unreliable, not the ‘testing system’. The truth’s getting out.

        People are beginning to wake up to where the ‘misinformation’ is coming from. It will kick off in the North.

        • a-tracy
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:58 am | Permalink

          ‘Tory media’ for goodness sake BBC local news, BBC national news, C4 news, the Guardian, The Independent, Liverpool Echo, The Manchester Evening news are these all ‘Tory Media’ I disagree with you. They caused runs on toilet rolls, hand gel, masks it goes on and on.

          Its not the PCR test we’re told by the media that is prompting the lockdown it is the people now being admitted into hospitals for treatment.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

        Right wing press….Guardian, Observer, Mirror, Independent and your favourite the Morning Star

        • hefner
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 7:56 am | Permalink

          You forgot the Socialist Worker. Should keep up mate.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

            Yes thanks for your additional one.
            I’m not up on extreme left media as much as you obviously.

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

        Martin, Don’t you keep saying a majority of the UK electorate didn’t vote for this government? And I am not convinced that calling the public stupid (stupefied?) is the best way to persuade them that your policies (which you don’t list) are better than the government’s. It seems similar to your view that Leave voters are thick – an equally unpersuasive stance.

        Previously you have demanded longer harsher lockdowns (without taking responsibility for the consequent economic and medical damage). Now you say they are a measure of last resort. You are far more mixed up than the government, and wouldn’t last 5 minutes in front of the media.

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:31 am | Permalink

      We need to follow Swedens example today

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      Well they had largely voluntary lockdowns in Sweden. They do work to delay and give more time to prepare! But not needed now.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

      Here’s part of a comment from a correspondent in Japan, in today’s Guardian.

      “Where I live, Japanese test and trace is run from local govn health sections, coordinated at county level. Money was allocated from central govn to increase testing capacity from April onward.

      Today’s cases amongst a population of 120 million – 278 infections.

      Despite some restrictions and largely self-directed limitations on behaviour, we’re leading a pretty normal life.”

      There’s no law of nature, which says that things need be the shambles that they are here.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 13, 2020 at 8:23 am | Permalink

        PS, to the Survivor Immunity freaks, it appears that you can get covid19 more than once – and in a short space of time – and that it may be even worse on subsequent occasions.

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54512034

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 13, 2020 at 10:00 am | Permalink

        So does Manchester’s local area test and trace all go to be tested centrally? Where – London? Where do Liverpools local test samples go to be tested?

        Are local tracers employed or are they all working Centrally? Are the tracers reporting back to local co-ordinators or all to one central office in Government?

        How do you know what is going on Martin? The rest of us are kept in the dark.

      • NickC
        Posted October 13, 2020 at 11:39 am | Permalink

        Martin, Very many, particularly European countries, have done as badly as the UK. Those that have done better have had one or more of: a much younger population; border lockdowns from the start; a health service not stuck with a socialist centralised top-down 1950s style organisation. The young population is not a feasible option. Of the other two, you opposed border lockdowns and support the NHS. We are where we are because of your choices – take responsibility for goodness sake.

  2. Iain Gill
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    4 what are we doing about the deaths from other causes that the NHS is neglecting.
    5 what about the poverty this is causing.
    6 what about the misery and suicides this will cause.
    7 nobody is going to put up with this.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      8 Boris is not ‘getting back control’.

    • Pdb
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      8 Can we actually use some of these giant stockpiles of medical grade masks, by giving them to the most vulnerable folk in order they have less chance of catching it; and thus ending up in hospital.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

      The pro – Survivor Immunity fools have brought lockdowns upon us all, with their reckless, nay, murderous, anti-mask, anti-non-encroachment, anti- everything lunacy.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

        Better tell Andy he loves these naughty youngsters.

      • steve
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        No, that will be your gym narcissists, party go-ers and boozers who’ve brought this on us.

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

        Martin, As I have explained before – herd immunity is the term used when a sufficient number of the “herd” have immunity to protect those in the herd who don’t have immunity. That is why “herd immunity” is absolutely not “survivor immunity”, by definition.

    • Ed M
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

      Well said

  3. Stephen Priest
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:27 am | Permalink

    Tom Jefferson and Carl Heneghan from the Spectator
    What does the Covid data really tell us?
    11 October 2020, 8:00am

    Another week has passed with more restrictions piled on – but as lockdown measures become ever more restrictive, the demand for evidence grows. Sir Keir Starmer, for instance, has asked to see evidence for new lockdown measures. In mid-August, Andy Burnham called on the government not to put Oldham into lockdown as Sir Richard Leese, the lead for health in Greater Manchester, pointed out that there is ‘no evidence’ that additional lockdown measures would improve the chances of halting the virus.

    Tomorrow, we’re told, there will be more restrictions still. But on what grounds?

    More in the Spectator

  4. Stephen Priest
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    More juggling with the Covid figures
    By
    The Conservative Woman

    AN NHS surgeon has been checking the Covid-19 statistics and has made some interesting observations. ….

    More on Conservative Woman website

  5. Caterpillar
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    Sadly the Govt does not need to do anything. It is a dictatorship that only a handful of MPs have been brave enough to vote against.

    • DOM
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:48 am | Permalink

      You probably voted for it.

      When will people understand that the two main parties are scum. Labour died in 1979. The Tory party died in 1990

      Tory are Labour and Labour are Tory. They sing from the same hymn sheet. They collude together.

      This offensive PM played the Churchillian hero before the GE and now he’s embraced the Year Zero politics of Pol Pot after coming to power. What a total bullshitter

      It ain’t rocket science. You’ve been deceived by another actor. Blair in 1997. Cameron in 2010. The other one that fills our heart with venom and now another Eton Tory boy with deceit in his soul and one eye on his future career

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:53 am | Permalink

        +1

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:27 am | Permalink

        And you, Dom, have been deceived by an actor too.
        So you have no answer. All you advocate is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

      • Hope
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:08 am | Permalink

        Dom,

        I am afraid you are right. I am very surprised by some of the bloggers I like to read on this site why they would vote for the Fake Tories after so many major policy failures, lies and deceit over ten years!

        Do they enjoy being in an abusive self harming relationship? Hoping beyond hope the offender will change?

      • Jim Whitehead
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:37 am | Permalink

        +1

      • JoolsB
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

        Spot on Dom. The only choice we have now are between Red Labour and Blue Labour. There isn’t a Conservative party to vote for anymore. What’s the point of voting?

      • Michelle
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

        I sense your frustration, I don’t understand either why people can’t see the two parties are almost joined at the hip on many issues. Forget all the pretence of otherwise. Ten years of Conservatives and little change from the days of Labour in all too many areas.

        https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/618/is-the-uk-giving-up-on-training-our-own-butchers-bakers-and-it-technicians

    • Andy
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:14 am | Permalink

      How can this be? You voted for it in December.

      You left what you called the EU dictatorship in January and now you have the Johnson/Cummings dictatorship instead?

      Still at least you voted for this one. Most of us didn’t.

      • matthu
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:01 am | Permalink

        None of us voted for the EU.

        • Fred H
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

          true – I voted once for a Common Market.

        • Lynn Atkinson
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

          Brilliant point!

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

        Andy, Who controls our fishing grounds right now? – the EU. Which is the highest court in the land? – the ECJ. Whose tariffs must we impose, and who do we pay 80% of them to? – the EU. We’ve not left at all. We are just as much a colony of the EU as we were before – just via a different treaty.

    • Simeon
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:25 am | Permalink

      Exactly right. What Sir John should be doing is getting off the fence and saying very clearly that all government-imposed restrictions should be lifted immediately, and that individuals should now make their own choices as to how to navigate the virus. He might add that only the views of scientists independent of the state should be given credence. Those in receipt of the state shilling have been utterly compromised.

      It is very simple and very obvious. The virus is nowhere near dangerous enough to warrant measures that undermine economic activity and civil liberties. Viable businesses have been destroyed, people are in despair, and normal family life is, at present, illegal. (What would the ECHR have to say about that I wonder?) This is dystopian by definition! The only (peaceful) way out of this, given the views of the vast majority of MPs, is for the electorate to call a general election through the recalling of all MPs. But how does that even begin to happen?

      • zorro
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:36 am | Permalink

        They are bought and paid for and often highly invested in the alleged solution….

        zorro

        • Simeon
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

          Scientists and MPs alike (not every one, I suppose). A new broom would be good, but do the people of this country know how to use one?

      • Jim Whitehead
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:32 am | Permalink

        +1

      • Frances Truscott
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:43 am | Permalink

        And then you expect doctors to decide who not to treat? Or will you just throw anyone over 60 into the dont treat pile?

        • Simeon
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

          After six months in which to plan and organise, and with the cancellation of elective treatments, and with welcome advances in the treatment of serious cases, is the NHS still so unprepared? I cannot say whether any doctor would be forced into such an invidious position, but even if some are, this has to be weighed against the substantial, and, let’s be clear, fatal consequences of lockdowns. It’s a hoary old phrase, but entirely appropriate here; using a sledgehammer (or a pneumatic drill, or TNT) to crack a nut is foolhardy and unjustified.

          To be clear, every death from Covid is a sadness. Some deaths will be genuine tragedys. But there are even more sadnesses, and yes, even more tragedys, as a direct result of these lockdowns. It is the job of political leaders to make these judgements.

          And the suggestion that this or that demographic might be denied treatment can in no way be inferred from what I said. Rather, it appears to be a very transparent attempt to smear. Perhaps on reflection you’d take it back.

    • Caterpillar
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:52 am | Permalink

      To be clear to Andy and Dom, I didn’t vote for it.

  6. Javelin
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    The Government and MPs really need to start reading the online comment sections. A very large proportion of the public have had more than a skin full. If the Conservative Party think they are going to win the next election they are deluded.

    • Sharon
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:31 am | Permalink

      Javelin

      I agree with you, but bizarrely, polls apparently say that 75% of people agree with lockdowns and say they should go further.

      I find that incredible and unbelievable, because any publication that has a comment section….say the same – this madness must end; we’re being run by a dictatorship; the data is wrong; the government are lying and so on!

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:47 am | Permalink

        Perhaps they are the 75% who are getting more from benefits than they got before covid 19. Are on full pay whether they work or not, are on 80% of their normal pay for being furloughed.

        Perhaps the 25% are those who are going to the wall.

      • Barbara
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:39 am | Permalink

        Polls are easily manipulated.

        • Lynn Atkinson
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

          Especially when you have a ‘nudge unit’ operating a psychological war.

    • miami.mode
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:38 am | Permalink

      Javelin. So you think that people who comment online are representative of the population as a whole. A very dubious assumption.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

        exactly – on here are voices of exasperation – standing up and being counted (for whatever it is worth). The wider 99% just put up with the nonsense and ineptitude – they get what they deserve -while we fume.

        • Lynn Atkinson
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

          That’s what Remainers banked on in the Referendum. They were wrong.
          This can’t go on, I don’t know a single soul in favour of the current ‘plan’.

        • Simeon
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

          Democracy, don’t you just love it?

          • hefner
            Posted October 13, 2020 at 8:13 am | Permalink

            Oh yes, but as a 2003 book by F. Zakaria (when he was working for ‘Foreign Affairs’ magazine) ‘The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad’ there are different types of democracy, and we might presently be switching from one type to another one.
            H. Arendt’s ‘The Origins of Totalitarianism’’, specially its third part might also offer some insight, particularly when seeing the level of some of the comments on this blog.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

        Yeah, I agree miami its a bit like a Martin Lewis poll being held as representative of the population as a whole.

      • michelle
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

        Those polled are not a representation of the population as a whole either. With polls, much depends on who is asked, what the question is and how it is phrased. There is also its limitations as to what can be expressed in any answer. A poll is far less reliable an indicator than free and wide expression through various on line outlets.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:28 am | Permalink

      Right wing fanatics are probably over-represented a hundredfold on the internet. It is an express instruction to all their missionaries – to do precisely that.

      Reading forums such as this gives no indication as to general public opinion.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

        Odd that we elected a Conservative government with a huge 80 seat majority.
        Labour…worst results since 1935.
        Green and Lib Dems had a dreadful election.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

        Don’t you read the Guardian comments section, Martin? You should you’d feel much more at home there.

      • Longus
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

        Wrong again. You never seem to get anything right.

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

        Well, Martin, you were evidently surprised by the Leave vote, so no wonder you dismiss what we say on here so quickly. You just don’t learn, do you?

    • Iain Gill
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      yes relying on being slightly less bad than labour is not an election winning strategy going forward. this whole thing is a disaster that clearly shows how poor our senior leadership across politics and the public sector are. we need a radical refresh, which will probably only come from a new party emerging.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

        We need to change most of te current personnel in both parties, much easier than a new party – anyway, we need 2 acceptable parties, not 1.

        • Iain Gill
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:18 am | Permalink

          It cannot happen in time, as candidate selection is broken in all the main parties, selects from far too narrow a range of world views and backgrounds, and the junior layers in parliament have been selected in that broken system.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:20 am | Permalink

      The next GE is just over 4 years away. That is a very, very long time in politics, even if it might be your last.

      My guess is that they will tough it out until near the end and see what the polls are saying.

  7. Mark B
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    Good morning – again

    The question I would like asking is. If the first lockdown did not achieve the stated goals, why does the government think a second one will ?

    • Northern Monkey
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      May I remind you of the definition of madness?

      Repeating a course of action and expecting different results…

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:29 am | Permalink

        Not if you are a quantum physicist.

        • Fred H
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

          you can choose – do you want a YES result, or a NO result ….pick what you prefer.

        • steve
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

          MiC

          But then Quantum Physics has actually driven many absolutely insane.

      • Mark B
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:22 am | Permalink

        They’re not mad, just clueless drones.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:41 am | Permalink

      thats science for you!

  8. Lifelogic
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Also answer why (even now after over six month to get ready) the NHS is still it seems incapable of coping? The first lock down was fully justified (but it was implemented rather too late for some areas) by the need to flatten the curve to allow the NHS not to be overloaded.

    Deaths at the peak were over 1ooo a day yet now they cannot cope with rather less than 1/15 of this? This despite the NHS having virtually cancelled many other activities.

    The Barrington declaration route is surly the way to go from.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:51 am | Permalink

      LL and why are they still insisting on treating infected patients in normal hospitals when we have Nightingale hospitals standing idle. Does the government have money to burn? It would seem they want it to spread while at the same time making people nervous of attending hospitals for other things.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:17 am | Permalink

        The Nightingale Hospitals were more of a very expensive PR stunt/distraction it seems. Something to show government was doing something – however daft that was.

        • Fred H
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

          a total stunt – and still are!

      • SM
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:37 am | Permalink

        There are 7 Nightingale hospitals fairly evenly spread around England; if you are sick enough to need hospital care, how efficient would it be to transfer a single patient by road ambulance possibly more than 100 miles to the nearest Nightingale location? Or does each hospital have a helicopter pad, assuming that a helicopter could land reasonably close to the patient’s home?

      • Original Chris
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:55 am | Permalink

        Fus, the fear agenda is all important.

      • Philip P.
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

        There was reportedly a serious shortage of ICU nurses in March. It’s apparently taken NHS managers 6 months to even start the process of recruiting more – perhaps they didn’t think the extra nurses were going to be needed this winter!

  9. acorn
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:10 am | Permalink
    • a-tracy
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      I heard they did this in Belgium too.

  10. BOF
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    Lock downs don’t work. WHO asks governments not to use them.

    Govt. Policy. Wreck the economy.

    • Sharon
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:36 am | Permalink

      Ironically it was WHO who put down the guidelines at the start which is why there is a team of German lawyers taking the WHO to The Hague for crimes against humanity .

      Seems the WHO are waking up to having been found out.

      Wish our government would too!

      • Everhopeful
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

        Oh great news!

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

      More pantomime.
      I bet that WHO only saying that to get naughty locking down West to give ££££££s to the wrecked developing countries’ industries.

  11. Sea_Warrior
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    4. Shouldn’t the drinking age in ‘party towns’ be raised to 30, while infections are a problem?
    5. What use is being made of ‘operations analysis’ to assess the worth of individual anti-COVID measures?
    I’ll now crack on with my day, which involves finalising the funeral arrangements for a relative whose last months in this world were largely spent ‘locked-down’, unable to enjoy outings. No wake, obviously.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:43 am | Permalink

      and mourners seated 2m apart.

    • No Longer Anonymous
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

      Condolences.

      • Sea_Warrior
        Posted October 13, 2020 at 6:08 am | Permalink

        Kind, thank you. She was ninety. A pretty good innings.

  12. Andy
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    People stopped listening to the government about the time Dominic Cummings went for his eye test.

    It really will not be one rule for the Tory ruling elite and their friends, and one rule for the rest of us.

    I’ll be making sure I don’t listen to Johnson today. The man is an incompetent, out of his depth, idiot – most of us didn’t vote for him and most of us were right.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:12 am | Permalink

      So presumably the party you voted for will be voting against the new restrictions in Parliament ? Oh …. they won’t ? So they actually agree with the Government then ? Odd. I mean aren’t oppositions meant to oppose ? Why aren’t they ?

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:35 am | Permalink

        +1 if the Opposition had opposed the Tories had mustered enough rebels to overturn mad Boris. But the party you voted for are useless – even with no jobs or responsibility.

        • Andy
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

          You don’t know who I voted for.

    • a-tracy
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      Change ‘Tory ruling elite’ to the ruling elite. The MPs from all parties left highly infected London and a highly infected workplace to go back to the regions without quarantining in London for a fortnight when their workplace closed the day before Cummings drove his family to his regional home out of London on the day his workplace closed. They got on planes, trains and admitted they were ill the following day, read Rayner and Blackfords’ tweets.

      The Scottish MP shows what people do when someone close to them or they get a + test result, they seem to have to go shopping or get home, she would have had to isolate in London for just ten days, but oh no she knew she was infectious but got on a train back to a home in the regions she knew her big bosses feelings on this he’s spoken about them often enough.

      I put on here an ITV report that said people could drive out for exercise before Cummings took his day trip to Barnard Castle. You seem to forget Kinnock journeyed into Wales to see his Dad on his birthday.

      The ruling elite just don’t seem to think this virus is that deadly or they wouldn’t do it, meet up in house parties with nine other people, pat each other on the back in Parliament, not wear masks around each other when not speaking. This is why people aren’t listening because they don’t believe it – until they get it – local lockdowns aren’t working because people are ignoring them.

      • Everhopeful
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:35 am | Permalink

        No.
        The “ruling elite“ KNOW THE TRUTH!
        Do you honestly think they would put themselves at risk?

    • No Longer Anonymous
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      Do you know what ?

      I’m going to give Andy yet another +1.

      I’m fed up of trying to defend the indefendible.

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

        Except that Cummings isolated himself and his family even if he did drive 300 miles to his parents, whereas an SNP politician – who knew she was infected – travelled in public and went to the HoC. There are many many examples far worse than Cummings, but Andy’s anti-Cummings rants have twisted reality.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

      The Tory Remainers forced Johnson on the Tory Party by gerrymandering the leadership shortlist.
      I was forced to vote for him because he was (and is) the best of the options available.
      After the 15th we need a real change – a Brexiteer, or the Tory Party is finished wether they deliver Brexit or not.

  13. Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    I’d add question 4.

    4. If like other cold viruse Covid will never be eradicated, how many years or decades do we plan to keep lockdowns going?

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      +1 forever.

  14. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    4, Why is a virus that is less lethal than many other diseases given precedence and as a consequence premature deaths have risen, diagnoses and treatments of far more serious illnesses have been delayed, education has been disrupted, unemploymeent has risen, the economy is in tatters and our personal liberty and freedom have been usurped?
    5. Why doess the government keep quoting the number of cases of CV19 when there is no test which can specifically and accurately detect it?

    • Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:42 am | Permalink

      +++

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:33 am | Permalink

      +++++

    • Ian @Barkham
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      +1

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Frances Truscott
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:41 am | Permalink

      Because its very infectious does kill. It does lead to long term damage and we dont have treatments or prevention yet that is very effective.
      Whats superfun is China has now had cases of pneumonic plague.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

        and they plan to test an entire city of >9 million people over a week timeframe.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

        It’s not on the ‘infectious diseased register’ the govt declassified it before the first lockdown.

    • TooleyStu
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

      +1
      Excellent comment.
      (Why does the government keep quoting the number of cases of CV19 when there is no test which can specifically and accurately detect it?)

      THAT is the most important point.. to be understood.
      Once you get your head round that little nugget, due to the hierarchy of information.. everything else can be dismissed. (face mask/lockdowns/travel restrictions/)

      Tooley Stu

  15. Nigl
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Inept and unaccountable. Nick Timothy spot on.

  16. No Longer Anonymous
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Your party is going to be utterly annihilated, John.

    Until then four miserable years to get through. It’s not just the pandemic mishandling but the other shite that you’ve brought in on the sly while we were in lockdown.

    Green crap and PC bollocks.

    • Nigl
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:48 am | Permalink

      Green crap? Thank you for such an excellent scientific dissertation.

    • Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      +++

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      Do you have to resort to bad language?

      • Everhopeful
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:33 am | Permalink

        Yes..he bloody well does!

      • zorro
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:10 am | Permalink

        It’s probably getting to that time. People are dying because of this government’s incompetence and arrogance. I am sure that you heard worse in the navy!

        zorro

        • Sea_Warrior
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 6:09 am | Permalink

          🙂

      • glen cullen
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:37 am | Permalink

        +1

      • miami.mode
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:49 am | Permalink

        ………I’ll now crack on with my day……..

        Was this posted by somebody masquerading as Sea_Warrior at 6.16 am?

        • Sea_Warrior
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 6:10 am | Permalink

          Getting up early and cracking on with the day is what all warriors do!

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        Reasoned arguments have been ignored by politicians for decades – abuse takes over as a shock tactic.

    • Adam
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      A loch is water in a big puddle.
      During local lockdown its contents can run out of control.
      Dangers should be channelled out beyond harm’s length.
      No Longer Anoymous warns of too many floaters.

      Govt should compel vulnerable people to wear Orange masks, enabling us to steer clear of risking infection at a glance.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:56 am | Permalink

      Did anyone at all, at the last election, vote for a Boris/Conservative Government in order to get his moronic and hugely damaging green crap? Or this war on CO2 plant food which is on balance doing far more good (in greening the planet and increasing food production and biodiversity) than harm.

      Here we are mid-pandemic with a dire NHS and health service, a real Brexit to deliver, hugely over taxed, with government debt increasing hugely and with a massively bloated and largely inept state sector delivering little of value and Boris is wittering on about being able to boil your kettle from expensive wind power (but only when the wind blows).

      Oh for some competent physicists and engineers to organise things. Get Lords Lilley and Ridley to set the agenda.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:59 am | Permalink

      Green crap, PC bollocks, vast borrowing and second rate health care does indeed seem to be the main output of this Government so far.

      • Iain Gill
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

        Third or fourth rate health care

      • NickC
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

        LL, You can add, teaching 3 year olds about transgenderism.

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:32 am | Permalink

      +++++++++++++++

    • Frances Truscott
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:27 am | Permalink

      Its a pandemic. Possibly you fail to understand what that means. Its also a new virus and no one in the world had a vaccine or even treatments to begin with.
      No one could have done better. There is nowhere in the world with comparable population number and population density that has.
      We have the EU and the anywheres to thank for our population number which is already more than twice the number this land mass can carry.
      I am just glad that the PM is capable of some optimism. Would you prefer wailing and wringing of hands?

      • Longus
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

        Japan, Taiwan and South Korea did a lot better. Japan is very densely populated and all are closer to the virus’ origin.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

        The wailing and wringing of hands is about the scientists and gullible PM !

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

        Japan is very similar in many ways, but has done brilliantly compared to the UK.

        There are plenty of other examples to shame both the UK government and its public.

        Your main assertion is quite incorrect.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:49 am | Permalink

          Moved onto Japan as your new favourite nation now I see.

      • No Longer Anonymous
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

        So why the green crap and the PC bollocks ?

      • Philip P.
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

        Possibly you fail to understand, Frances, that it was only a pandemic thanks to the rejigged definition the WHO came up with in 2008 or so. Without that, it would just be a serious respiratory disease affecting overwhelmingly the very old, and posing no serious risk to the younger and healthier population.

      • Simeon
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

        Wow. Someone has drunk the Boris Kool Aid. You’re not CCHQ by any chance?

    • Original Chris
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:54 am | Permalink

      UN Agenda 2030 (global governance agenda) explains all, No Longer Anonymous. It is very frightening indeed. Johnson is a tool of the globalists, effecting their agenda, which of course includes the “green crap”.

  17. Richard1
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    I would like to see an update of Sir P Vallance’s graph with the actual data versus his projection. In particular we need to see also: 1) numbers in critical care beds with the virus 2) deaths and 3) capacity.

    We should also avoid listening to shrill leftists. The leftwing actress Jane Fonda has made the revealing remark that “Covid is a gift to the left”. Leftwing agitators love lockdown because of the increase in state control and the economic damage it does.

  18. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    4. ) Where are people testing positive actually getting infected?

    5.) Schools and Universities went back at the same time as cases started to rise. Is there a correlation? Are those students passing among themselves or into the wider community?

    6.) The evidence suggests that the peak for the first wave came before lockdown had an impact, what evidence are you using to justify further lockdowns?

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      Sir John – you evidently are not in favour of further lockdown measures. Why don’t you vote against them.

      Your party is not coming to advance your ministerial career (more is the pity) so now you have a constituents / country / party decision.

      For many years you followed your duty to constituents / country over the EU, please do so again over lockdowns. Agitate others to join you.

      Reply I made clear I will vote against measures I think harmful like the 10 pm national curfew

  19. James Bertram
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    BrexitFacts4EU give us an important reminder today that the number of ‘cases’ on which Lockdown policy is based is nowhere near Whitty and Vallance’s prediction of 50,000 cases per day. Even on the government’s own dubious terms for Lockdown, the facts provide no justification for it.
    https://facts4eu.org/news/2020_oct_more_lockdowns

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

      +1

  20. Roy Grainger
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    It would also be interesting to see their analysis of the extra financial cost of the new lockdown including support payments and long-term unemployment benefits.

    I hear the NHS are already clearing beds for the next wave of Covid patients. They really are useless – millions of delayed cancer treatment and other appointments (despite no Covid burden over the summer), GP surgeries closed etc. It is a real failure of the Conservatives that they haven’t at some stage used their majority to move to a public/private system like Germany’s which is the envy of the world in their handling of Covid.

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      Population reduction.
      Think about it.
      They managed to get rid of 20-30 thousand “useless eaters” last lockdown!
      How would it not be obvious to them that in taking the sick from hospital they are purposely killing them??

    • MWB
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      +1

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:55 am | Permalink

      @Roy I have needed a blood test for over 4 months now and still my GP surgery has not even contacted me. God alone knows when simple things like this will take place let alone anything urgent. I just wonder what GP’s are doing at the moment. I know one of our GP’s cars has been parked in her driveway more or less all day since Covid began. I haven’t seen a dentist for a year either.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

        I used to join a 20+ queue for a regular blood test east of Wokingham (a clue) – this morning I was second patient in and out in 3 minutes.
        After trying for a few months to get past dental triage – this week I have secured both a dental check up (which is likely to conclude cracked tooth) and a hygenist session 2 days later. Only 2 weeks to wait – try, try, try again! I assume the economics of the place means they will now work.

  21. Alan Jutson
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Just remember it is not the government that is spreading the virus, it is people.

    Not in favour of lockdown, but if people will not social distance properly or take any sort of sensible precautions, what happens next ?

    Let it rip completely, overwhelm the NHS completely and then nobody gets treated for anything properly and we store up bodies where we can, or put them in mass graves perhaps !
    No it will not kill the majority, but will do enough harm to many.

    • matthu
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:23 am | Permalink

      Encouraged by the government, you assume that “let it rip completely” is the only alternative to lockdown. Other alternatives have been proposed.

      • Alan Jutson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

        mathu

        Not my thoughts at all, just trying to tease out the alternatives from those who do nothing but constantly criticise the Government no matter what they try and do.

        Agree with you absolutely that we should not “let it rip”, but judging by some comments on here, you would think the government is simply trying to make prisoners of us all as a matter of policy, and using Covid as the excuse.

        Of course you simply cannot let it rip, but the government is at least trying to put some sort of controls in place, some I will admit not very well thought out, but if people will not use some sort of self control and common sense measures, then what hope is there, other than more stringent control measures with some sort of penalty for failure to comply.
        Certainly we need to get as many back to work as safely as possible, certainly we need to compensate in some way business which are forced to close, certainly we need to help those who must self isolate for health/risk reasons, but the Government cannot help everyone, people have to try and look after themselves, and the sensible thing to do in my view, is to carry on as near to normal as possible, whilst taking as many precautions as possible/sensible. The more at risk you are, then the more precautions you should take.

        The death rates are rising because the infection rate is rising, history from the first wave suggests deaths follow infections by about 4 -6 weeks something many people still do not seem to understand when quoting daily infection rates against current death rates.

    • Anonymous
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

      Not in favour of lockdown, but if people will not social distance properly or take any sort of sensible precautions, what happens next ?

      ….
      l9ckdown forever Alan?
      you are playing into the evil one’s narrative.

    • zorro
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:06 am | Permalink

      Nonsense – the usual canards – nobody is saying ‘let it rip’, we are looking at a more targeted approach to dealing with the virus which does not destroy the economy.

      You have completely bought into the propaganda. The NHS was not overwhlmed at the peak. Bed occupancy was down on previous years if you care to look rather than hiding behind your sofa. The Nightingale hospitals were never needed.

      Peak infections were before the lockdown (peak deaths on 08/04), and hand washing and social distancing had broiught the rate of reproduction down to below 1 by the end of March. All this happened despite the lockdown and effectively before it could have had any effect.

      What we have now is a fraction of what it was in March. Stop listening to the government bilge and start listening to scientists who do not have skin in the game!!

      zorro

      • Alan Jutson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

        Zorro

        “Let it rip”

        Afraid many on here are saying exactly that, but they offer no sensible alternative at all, hence my question.

        Yes I am all in favour of a sensible targeted approach.

        See my reply to mathu above.

        • Alan Jutson
          Posted October 13, 2020 at 10:26 am | Permalink

          Zorro

          My reply to mathu,

          Unfortunately Still in moderation.

    • everyone knows
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      Let it rip completely, overwhelm the NHS completely and then nobody gets treated for anything properly and we store up bodies where we can, or put them in mass graves perhaps !

      ….
      garbage

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

        That is a description of the present system. We want that changed please.

  22. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    You ask these sensible questions. You ask for proper data. But you’re ignored.

    The government should be in a position to provide evidence for its actions.
    Because it can’t, and won’t, it is asking for trouble.

    People will just ignore it and its juvenile ministers as it ignores them.

  23. J Mitchell
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    It would be more helpful if we knew what it is that the government is trying to achieve. In the Spring it was the clearly stated objective to prevent the NHS from falling over. We now know this is not going to occur. So what is the present objective?

    • miami.mode
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

      ……..We now know this is not going to occur…………

      If you know this for certain perhaps you could also let us know which horse will win the big race at Ascot this coming Saturday, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at 3.05 pm.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

        So you think the NHS will ‘fall over’? It’s had a 6 month holiday with empty hospitals and GPs working on their prize winning gardens…

  24. Steven
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    It also needs to answer why Florida, South Dakota and Sweden have no increase in cases without lockdown. It needs to explain why cases are more important than people actually being ill or dying. It needs to explain why the WHO are now against lockdowns and have admitted that covid is less dangerous than flu.
    Any further lockdowns have absolutely no excuse and are clearly a weapon against us.

  25. oldtimer
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    I will wait to hear what is actually said later today. But if the speculation is correct it will be time for the conservative party to remove it’s Prime Windbag.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

      On Friday…

  26. Newmania
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    Its really not that complicated .
    Its a virus , its spreads via exhaled droplets .It is highly contagious sometimes fatal and often has serious long terms affects – got it so far ?
    If people mingle together they have an increased risk of catching it and passing it on – That is obvious to everyone else – why are you still confused ?
    The weapons we have are
    1 Test and Trace -( which requires government competence sadly )
    2 Degrees of restriction on meeting
    3 Masks / social distance
    4 Restrictions on travel
    5 Improved treatment
    6 Vaccination

    Not hard is it . I don`t mind you stressing the economic costs, for wherever reason , but here you seem to be questioning the basic facts of the problem( see question 1 ) – Don`t do that please – there is a risk people will take you seriously .

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:03 am | Permalink

      But this only really delays the spread of the infection and delays herd immunity. It can also have other effects that are far more damaging overall. Protect the vulnerable as best we can and get the rest back to work/play or study.

    • villaking
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

      1) Testing seems pointless, There is no cure. If you feel very ill, which you don’t mostly with CV19, Lemsip and bed rest should shift it
      2) Restrictions on meeting have not been proven to reduce cases as Sir John points out
      3) Science is divided on masks, many think they do more harm than good. Social distancing and lock downs have not been proven to be effective
      4) Ditto restrictions on travel
      5) Improved treatment is indeed a factor in reducing fatalities
      6) Vaccination does not exist and may never exist
      The basic “facts” DO need to be questioned. It is the failure to do so that has allowed this government to commit the most disastrous policy mistake in modern history, destroying lives and livelihoods and robbing us of centuries’ old freedoms

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      No risk anyone will take you seriously spouting left wing nonsense.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

        +1 with no evidence.

    • BOF
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      I would suggest you read ‘The Great Barrington Declaration’. Quite enlightening.

    • zorro
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:57 am | Permalink

      Sure like in Peru….

      zorro

    • M Brandreth- Jones
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:06 am | Permalink

      All correct Newmania, but many don’t think it applies to them. There is another factor of course . duration of exposure . If in a household where the infection is apparent and there are many people the virus can get stronger infect and re infect so it does not naturally die out. It always has a host. Antibodies do not necessarily build up as many have tested antibody neg after covid pos.

      The same applies to duration of exposure in places where people collect . A fleeting accidental touch may not be as potentially dangerous as a handshake and conversation or sitting 2 meters away at a restaurant and carried by airflow.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      It also needs laws which make clear what is expected of the public.

      Being found in a public place in Qatar without a mask means three years in prison. I don’t propose that, but it makes people understand something.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

        You lefties claim to want power to the people but as your post demonstrates actually you want the State to overpower citizens with harsh punishments.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

        what penalty do you suggest for voting Leave?

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

        Yes and for women that has been the case since the 14th century…

      • steve
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        +1

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:40 am | Permalink

      We’ve had an effective solution for years – its called a hankerchief and 2 weeks in bed if you have symptoms

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

        +1

    • David L
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

      There are many highly qualified medical people from all around the world who take issue with what you state as such certainties. Up to now they have been too silent, but so many discrepancies and unsubstantiated statements have been thrown at us that we are looking for more informed sources. A pathologist, Dr John Lee, said in an interview “The notion that social distancing and a mask will protect you from coronavirus is pure bunkum” (Interview with Ivor Cummins). Just one example.

      • TooleyStu
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

        They are not silent.. they have been ‘silenced’.

        Tooley Stu

    • formula57
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

      @ Newmania – I see question 1 and do not overlook that it is asked in the context of “..if the government proposes more lock downs..” .

      It seems appropriate in that context (and remaining mindful of the economic costs and other hardships flowing from lock downs) to have an answer that explains “why have cases risen for so long in places already under local lock downs?”. Where lock downs not supposed to thwart rises in cases?

      If cases rise despite lock downs, do lock downs need to be more stringent or should other measures substitute? Why would you not want that information sought?

    • Ginty
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

      Because economic devastation costs lives !

  27. Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Boris has lost it

    He carries on with actions that have shown themselves to be ineffective, and he has no plan-B.

    I’d always appreciated Boris for his education, but it seems even he can be led, astray, by the nose by those that want to destroy our nation….. or is he also part of that cabal?.

    WAKE UP BORIS — See what is happening — WE need an alternative approach.

    • Original Chris
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:51 am | Permalink

      Boris is a globalist, whose government has signed up to UN Agenda 2030. It is a very frightening agenda, superficially made “respectable” by such terms as sustainability, social equity and so on. However, see what the globalists demand, and it explains exactly which way this country is going in the direction it is under Johnson.

      Very informative video on youtube by Rosa Koire: UN Agenda 2030

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      An in-depth education of ancient Greek is particularly valuable faced with HS2, Nuclear power, Green agenda, EU vs Brexit, UN membership, future BBC, NHS & Health provisions restructure – and finally COVID.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

      We need an alternative PM.

  28. JoolsB
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Jon, when are we going to see the public sector take some of the hit? How come the Government can guarantee their job security and 100% incomes for doing even less than they did before., front line workers excepted of course. Why is it only the wealth creating private sector that is taking the hit and paying the price for the Government’s bungling. If we are ever to get out of the economic disaster these lockdowns are causing, we will need the private sector not the public sector for our recovery and yet it seems only they and not the public sector are indispensable. Utter madness. How about the Government taking this opportunity to cull the massive, over bloated, over costly state down to size?

    Oh I forgot, we need a Conservative Government to do that so that ain’t gonna happen Is it?.

    • JoolsB
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      Sorry John, I meant dispensable.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

        It’s only when these decision-makers like Hancock, Boris and the scientists face the same financial repercussions on their pensions and pay that they may start to investigate the actual facts behind these decisions. Some MPs quote opinion as evidence when it is anything but and makes them look foolish.

        • Mark B
          Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

          Hear hear

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:16 am | Permalink

      How about”divide and conquer”?
      As someone said, the establishment is very good at it.
      Turn the unpaid against the paid and no one will bat an eyelid when the paid are dispensed with.
      Just think of all those automated phone calls when your tax return goes wrong!

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:00 am | Permalink

      Great comment Jools. As per normal the public sector are cushioned with no worries or concerns whatsoever. Still getting their pay cheques each month and as you say, sometimes for doing next to bugger all. I phoned the NI contributions 3 weeks ago as I had a letter I didn’t understand and wanted clarification. I was told categorically that no direct debit would be taken until April as I had paid for the year in question. I go away for a week and come back to a letter advising me that on that day a direct debit had been taken out of my account and it would be each month from now. Talk about muddled and of no help whatsoever. Luckily I just about had enough in my account to stop it going overdrawn.

  29. Lifelogic
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    The BBC does not deserve a Trojan Horse chairman suggests Gyles Brandreth today. He agrees with the dire David Dimbleby (who attacked the excellent Charles Moore the other day).

    “It has to be someone who believes in the BBC” he says. It really needs someone who believes in a sensible, high guality and honestly balanced BBC.

    Not some dope who wants it to continue as unfair competition to the rest of the industry and continue with its left wing, pro-Democrat, anti-Brexit/Trump, climate alarmist pushing, high taxing, magic money tree drivel. Staffed with over paid, Guardian think, dimmish art graduates and dire left wing “comedians”. It need a Trojan army to sort it out not one horse.

    • rose
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:59 am | Permalink

      Very good, LL.

      Of course both David Dimbleby and Charles Moore are cradle Liberals who went to Eton, so what is Brandreth on about? They even both live in Sussex.

    • Gramp
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      I agree. Very well put too.

    • Jim Whitehead
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:19 am | Permalink

      +1 !!!!!

    • No Longer Anonymous
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

      BBC

      A big focus on Mike Pence fly on head but nothing on Joe Biden’s call for bathroom breaks.

      Wall-to-wall for three weeks on Dominic Cummings’ legal road journey in a car but out of the news in two days on Margaret Ferrier’s train journey sitting with passengers and staff.

      And constant BLM pot boiling. They will not let it rest.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. Almost every single programme is infected by misguided BBC think. Diversity everwhere other than diversity of opinions.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

        Should MPs be taking the knee in the Commons before battle commences?

  30. Maylor
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Why did the govt downgrade covid 19 from a high consequence infectious disease on 19/03/2020 and then introduce a national lockdown on 23/03/2020 ?

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid

    Also, this report is ambiguous – does it mean that covid 19 and flu cases will be given in the same report or that the numbers of each will be combined ?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/923668/Weekly_COVID19_Surveillance_Report_week_40.pdf

    No wonder so many are beginning to question the narrative.

  31. Fred H
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    When are Tory MPs and a few brave others going to call out what his regime is doing?
    Meek acquiescence !

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

      Hear! Hear!
      But obviously they are all in on it.

    • Ian @Barkham
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:00 am | Permalink

      +1

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:41 am | Permalink

      +1

  32. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Well I will not be happy if the rural areas of Shropshire where infection rates are low have to lock down because of Telford and Wrekin. Telford is a very large town and many commute to Birmingham and Wolverhampton so numbers are high. Why are the numbers for influenza and Covid going to be amalgamated? Is it to make the pandemic look worse abd so justify the government’s actions? I don’t see a good Christmas coming.

    • Christine
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      Yes, why is PHE now amalgamating the Covid-19 and flu figures? Anyone would think they are trying to keep this pandemic going. We all know flu cases rise in the winter and already the latest figures show 3 times as many deaths from flu as from Covid.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

        the control must run and run!

      • Stred
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

        Christine. So that no one will be able to tell whether the lockdown worked or not.

    • Suzette Burtenshaw
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

      I noticed a couple or so months ago, the Covid 19 epithet started to slip when the virus was being reported on, and was subtly replaced with ‘coronavirus’. At the time, being a suspicious soul, I wondered if this was a deliberate move in order to, in the future, conflate the Covid brand with general coronavirus illnesses.

      • Everhopeful
        Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

        Yes. At the time a commentator said exactly that!
        Or
        What will they do,
        When we all get flu?
        Mix up the figure
        To make it look bigger!

    • Annette
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

      Why are ‘cases’ being conflated with positive outcomes from a flawed PCR test? It can only be intentional misdirection to generate fear, mass hysteria & exert control beyond normal powers.
      Why not use hospitalisations & deaths, a true measure of health?
      Why are normally sensible MPs so accepting of what is blatant ‘engineering’ of a situation & misrepresentation, thus preventing a truely sensible debate about what is going on?
      What about all the non-covid illnesses & lockdown impact?
      As the Govt has ‘changed its mind’ each time the WHO has, will they be ‘changing their mind’ again?
      It seems clear that our Govt is not running this country. The lack of challenge from many MPs makes them fully complicit in this crime against the people.

  33. Nigl
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Your governments total failure to get the relevant authorities to enforce the rules, especially re masks, plus the abysmal test and can’t trace shambles has played a key role in the problems we now have. Not forgetting being in total hock to the so called experts who have regularly got their figures wildly wrong.

    Equally total lack of honesty and leadership across the political spectrum. Northern Mayors would do better getting their electors to take personal responsibility rather than put the blame elsewhere but of course, that might upset their voters so can’t expect that to happen.

    No doubt you personally will be offering wise words quietly, from where I am sitting without much effect. It is now time for you and your colleagues to stand up loudly and publicly and do the job you are elected to do, reflect our views and hold the government to account.

    Continuing with people in post who have palpably failed will neither solve the problems nor inspire any confidence whatsoever.

    • Alpipp
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

      So you want a police state stripping people’s rights to see family and enjoy life!

      I always wondered why so many French supported the Vichy NAZI regime. Some people love police states and east german snooping. I note that people wanting more lockdown and restrictions on freedoms are health fadcists.

      Of course, I suspect most pro lockdowners are on final salary pensions with lovely gardens and houses where lockdown has been all rather lovely etc. I live in an area with public sector retirees driving a new car every couple of years. They are so stupid blaming the young – the young have no future. The boomers robbed the young. So why should the young listen to lock down fascist boomers?

      Of course some boomers are aware of the ruinous final salary pensions and public sector pensions burden. That the COVID lockdown is not required. But they are few. Lord Sumption is one of them.

  34. Stephen Priest
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    They had a “scientist” from the government on Today Radio 4, who said, oh yes, lockdowns are justified from the data I’ve seen. Asked by the interviewer what data he had seen to reach that conclusion, as others were waiting to see data from the government, then said, “well I haven’t seen any actual data……

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

      Typical. Lying in their teeth! Scientists are going to wonder why they will never be trusted again.

  35. BJC
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    I’ve heard nothing from the government that stands up to scrutiny or that warrants the same sort of response to infection rates as they adopted in March to actual hospital admissions. It’s neither reasonable nor proportionate as infection rates are not cases, so it smacks more of sleight of hand to manipulate the situation.

    In fact, I feel rather like a lab rat in the middle of a high-risk, but carefully choreographed government strategy designed to identify the point at which the population will rebel and take it on themselves to lead the way to our long-term recovery.

    Labour’s fluid position can’t be helping, particularly in their local powerbase. One minute they support lockdown despite lacking any scientific evidence it works, the next they’re calling for evidence of the need for lockdown. These are meant to be incisive leaders annointed with exceptional powers to do what’s best for their communities, not individuals of limited ability only capable of following instructions from above, whilst endlessly whingeing and begging for money. Isn’t it about time they did the job they’re paid to do instead of blaming others?

    • Mark B
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

      I very much agree with your second paragraph. But the poll are slanted to give the impression that the Lock down is popular. It may be at the moment, but when furlough ends and the unemployment figures rise ?

  36. Maylor
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    The most recent report on BrexitFacts4EU is well worth a read. It is based on evidence from Oxford University.

    https://facts4eu.org/news

  37. Philip P.
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Sir John, my answers to your questions are, in order:

    1. Lockdowns don’t work.
    2. Lockdowns don’t work.
    3. Lockdowns won’t work.

  38. majorfrustration
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    lets have a fresh start and put the Army in charge – do away with the politicos and followers.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

      you have to ask yourself ‘would a coup really be that bad?’.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

      Whose army?

    • DaveK
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

      The Long March through the Institutions was done over a decade ago in the armed services.

  39. Everhopeful
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Because of the nature of the test the more people you test the more “cases” you will find.
    The inventor of the test said that if you try hard enough you can use it to find anything.
    The so-called cases are just positive readings which actually mean/prove nothing.
    A Parliament “à mener par le nez “
    Or actually…the MPs can’t really be THAT stupid…surely?

    Mind you …I believe that all NHS testing is very remunerative..not sure how/why..but….

  40. ChrisS
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Why have cases risen for so long in places already under local lock downs?

    1. Because of the stupid decision to reopen university campuses. It was completely obvious that this would result in a huge rise in infections in every town with a university.

    2. Because younger people and ethnic minority communities with their normally-admirable culture of extended families are not obeying the rules.

    What is the exit strategy from lock down, and how do you avoid growth in the virus again if lock downs work?

    3. Authorities have to be sure that people will obey the rules if there is to be any relaxation from lockdowns. See 1 and 2 above.

    Is there local buy-in to the lock down, as it needs consent to work?

    4. Local politicians have often preferred to blame the government for the increase in infections rather than be honest and tell their own citizens that it is their fault. Enforcement has often been patchy at best, but in reality cannot work. The only answer is to convince people that they have to stick to the rules. Maybe it is necessary to have several lockdowns over a period before the irresponsible minority see sense ?

  41. Iain Moore
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    I do not understand the Government’s approach to this. Covid , I presume, is not a political core value over which to fight to the death, its something to manage as best they can, so why does the Government treat Covid data like a state secret?

    It was reported the other day Chris Whitty showed Northern Mayors a glimpse at the Covid data in their areas. What? Any sane person might have thought the Government would make this information readily available so people, let alone the local government authorities would be able to see the developing problem. It makes the argument for the Government, so why hide the info?

    The only explanation I can see to explain this addiction to secrecy is that the Covid data does not support the lockdown policies the Government is pursuing. Why the Government should be doing this? Who knows, I am not sure they do, perhaps they got sold a line by the NHS , Whitty and Vallance that if they opened schools, colleges, and universities then pain had to be directed elsewhere, and that should fall on pubs, even thought the last time I saw any info on it, the hospitality sector was only contributing 3% of Covid infections , while the schools and universities were adding 40% . Not surprisingly hitting the 3% with lockdown measures it not showing much success at getting control of the Covid outbreak.

  42. Nivek
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    To remain in corpore sano it seems reasonable at least to consider the impact of environmental pollution, as you discuss in your other post this morning. Mens sana, meanwhile, surely needs protection from “legislative pollution”. What plans do Conservatives have to achieve that result for the public?

  43. Javelin
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Every parent fears coming under the watch of social services: with mad, draconian, unfair , inconsistent rules and very poor outcomes.

    Boris has now put the whole country under the control of social services.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

      We can go on like this. Boris needs specialised care.

    • Alpipp
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

      Well said.

      What stupid Boris doesn’t realise is that we are complying out of fear of losing jobs, losing children, not being able to pay the mortgage.

      This on/off lockdown will continue until Spring 2024 when Boris will realise that he will not be re-elected.

      Until then there will be secret societies where socialising is allowed. I know of loads of people with more than one phone and people avoiding mobile phones at all…

      It is like prohibition days.

      Boris is dumb.

  44. agricola
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Pending the arrival of a vaccine the only productive route is Test, and if clear, go about your life of work and leisure normally. If not clear isolate until clear. The question to be decided is then on the frequency of re-testing. Testing should produce a passport, paper and electronic with which you can legitimise your activity.

  45. rose
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Number 1 can’t be answered in public because to do so, one would need to say who is catching the coronavirus most, and where. Then, why?

    • rose
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

      For example, are large numbers of people who don’t go to the pub getting infected?

  46. gyges
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Why is the government with holding information from us?

    I’ve just been reading Prof Fentons, “Why we know so little about COVID-19 from testing data – and why some extra easy-to-get data would make a big difference”, Sunday, 11 October 2020 from his Probability and Risk blog.

    Here he says, “in principle, we should easily be able to get daily data for all the yellow rectangles and, if we did, our estimates would be far more accurate. Given the critical need to know these things more accurately, it is a great shame that these data are not available.” Where the information he talks about are things such as number of people with symptons tested, number of people with symptons testing positive, number of people tested, number of people tested more than once … he has other examples.

    For my part I’m concerned about the lack of quality control in place within the Gov processes. The excel error and hence miscounting error, shows that the government has no quality systems in place. Can you find out whether or not the Gov are going to put quality systems in place so that we can trust the scarce amount of data that is being released?

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

      They can’t release data because it will be (more) evidence of the incompetence of The State.

  47. Ian @Barkham
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Having a Government without a back-ground in logic is leading to all sorts of mistakes that are leading to more mistakes. That is causing un-necessary damage.

    On testing, if you quadruple testing and you find more cases, is that logical – probably. But is that in-line with the amount of tests ‘only’. Then add in the random testing that is taking place of the general population along with Universities testing all students. Should there be an increase. Logic the more people tested the more people have been found to have or have had the virus. Is that a rise in infections or a rise in testing?

    Add into that it is said 90% testing positive have no symptoms. Would we have had the same result with a quarter of the testing 3 months ago?

    Then as an aside there is a big chunk some 18% of the overall that are getting Corvid after a stay of more than 7 days in hospital. Not forgetting you have to be tested as clear before being admitted into hospital. To an outsider, close on 1 in 5 cases that are being reported are caused by poor hygiene standards in the NHS. Logic, get the NHS working correctly and there will be an instant fall in case.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

      Get the NHS working correctly 😂😂 it’s like the BBC – past salvation.

  48. Ian @Barkham
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    No one should ever forget.

    Elections are ‘never’ won. People vote for what they see as the least worst option.

    Even then it is never more than 5% that swops sides, i.e. the easiest to manipulate amongst us. Only a Politian’s ego make them believe is their policies. The majority of us as we are never permitted to select them as candidates just ‘Don’t Believe Them’

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

      and we never get an option to cross ‘None of the above’ .
      What is left is all too often ‘Monster Raving Loony’ – however, we will have competition called ‘The Conservative Party’ – -even more loony.

  49. Lynn Atkinson
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    They are shut the housing market down again. Nobody in the north can view houses. The ‘stamp duty holiday’ must be made permanent and rates that are retained must be slashed.

  50. M Brandreth- Jones
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    To be more accurate and the questions arisen re the effectiveness of lockdowns , one must take another angle . How many cases and deaths would there have been without lockdown . It is poor logic to see one side of the equation only and place ; population per head of space and other factors should all be included globally. We are not all doing Phd’s trying to make reality fit our thesis!

    • Margaret brandreth-j
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

      Bad sentences from myself.!!! For anyone who is interested and I don’t expect attention from anyone trapped in their own far too rationalised points , there are far more variables in trying to analyse the spread, incidence and clustering effects of covid-19. No two areas are made up of the exact same populous with all obeying rules as they should . No two areas have the same understanding and working out of hygiene.
      An example: I made a fleeting visit to the supermarket to get food. I waited at the checkout a good 2 metres behind the person checking out first . A women came right up behind me . I reminded her that we are supposed to stand 2 metres apart and she replied .No I am ok thankyou . I remarked well I am not , but she would not move back .So many people are determined to spread covid selfishly . Their individual freedom is more important than all others’ health and business . So many people think they are smarter than all the scientists!

  51. bigneil(newercomp)
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    You gave us 3 questions John. Here is one back. Why the hell are we ( i.e. YOU LOT ) STILL waving in foreigners who deliberately set off from Calais??? WE get told we cannot let into our houses someone from next door – -yet people from another country turn up by the hundreds – – and are rewarded with everything????

  52. glen cullen
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    The voting pubic aren’t going to forget today – the day the conservatives went against the people and destroyed the economy

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

      +1 they are destroying their own supporters, individually. It’s criminal.

  53. Javelin
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    For the record I’d like to post the most liked comment in The Sun. These are, or rather were, your core voters.

    “It is like watching the country in the grips of a terrifyingly abusive relationship.

    The government claiming it is ‘for your own good’ and ‘you’ve made us do this’ whilst the heavy handed blows are striking out any spark of rebellion and the situation is just getting worse and worse. Very grim.”

  54. Peter from Leeds
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    According to the ONS random sample – 86% of people with the virus had NONE of the symptoms when they were tested. So the test and trace approach which waits until people get symptoms is going to struggle to “control the virus”.

    We need a completely different strategy.

    My suggestion would be a range of techniques:

    1. Enforce UV lighting in public area (it is possible to have low power UV which is harmless to humans but kills viruses).
    2. Disinfectant entrances to venues (other countries do this).
    3. Enforce air circulation inside public spaces and regularly test the filters – as soon as virus detected (there are 20 minute machines I believe) test everyone in the venue (they would have to log in or use the app).
    4. Use tests at airports (together with some isolation period) – not sure why this is taking so long to arrange.
    5. More focus on medicines to prevent people going into hospital if they test positive – it is the number of people going into hospital, rather than deaths or positive tests, is the main problem – as it clogs up the NHS.
    6. Where there is an outbreak test everyone in the area – then assist in isolation.
    7. Better communication to explain what “self isolation” actually means – as it is clear that lots of people don’t understand and even an MP seems to suggest it is understandable if you “panic”.

    Living up North it certainly feels like we are being treated badly – certainly does not feel like “levelling up”.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

      Only a tiny proportion of the 36,000 or so tested came out positive – around 150.

      If the tests only had 1% false positives, then you’d expect about 360.

      Think what that would mean for people with positive results being symptomless.

      Sadly, the survey tells us little without a very accurate false positives figure.

      I saw no evidence that it was known.

  55. Philip Haynes
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    It did (to a degree) the stated goal was not to overload the NHS and give them time to get ready and get better treatments and facilities in place! They were rather later for in some areas. A bit early in others.

    A second lockdown is not justified in my opinion and would do more harm than good.

  56. David Saunders
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Clearly is the people’s fault for this virus. We do not need better government, we need a better people.

    • Zorro
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

      Just like Berthold Brecht when describing East Germany and its people….

      Zorro

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

      Maybe we can differentiate between ‘good’ people and ‘bad’ people.
      People who have had or have the virus = bad and they should lose office!

  57. Wokinghamite
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    It’s not the government’s fault; they’re doing their best in a difficult situation. The enemy is Covid-19. We need to recapture the spirit of unity which I felt was with us in the Spring. Where is Captain Tom?

    • Fred H
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

      well he’s not hugging and dancing around outside the nearest pub!

    • Zorro
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      Oh please…..

      Zorro

    • Simon Coleman
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 12:12 am | Permalink

      Endless lockdowns, restrictions, bankruptcies, ruining of ordinary life without a reference to one piece of published scientific evidence. Ordering the NHS to lock out millions of people with other serious health conditions while the Nightingale hospitals were empty. If that’s doing their best, perhaps you could give us some insight into how things will be when their standards drop a bit?

  58. Original Chris
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    The government needs to answer this question posed by Ivor Cummins in his excellent video on the current Covid situation and the government strategy: Why are they doing this? The science does not support the policies being put forward.

    The video by Ivor Cummins is on youtube and is entitled:
    URGENT UPDATE: Societal Damage from Bad Science, not the Virus? Why are they doing this?

    It is about time the people of this country woke up to what is going on. I hold little hope for Tory politicians heeding this vital video as I suspect many know exactly why Johnson is doing this, and whose agenda he is following, and critically they support this global governance agenda.

    Johnson’s policies are not science based; the policies are about control.

  59. Iain Gill
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    I see the World Health Organisation now says that lockdowns dont work.

    Maybe time to ask the government why they disagree…

    • Original Chris
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

      MPs should demand urgently an explanation why he is ignoring the WHO advice, and he should be held to account for the catastrophic damage to the economy, people’s lives and livelihoods that his policies have wrought.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

      Well the WTO changed its mind when they were indicted in The Hague.
      We could follow the same ‘reasoning’ with Boris, but I believe Blair gave himself (or Was it the Br Govt.) immunity from The Hague.

  60. Edwardm
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Thank you to JR for asking pertinent questions.
    To me the government have lost all sense of proportion, I’d suggest to the point it has lost interest in the electoral consequences. In the absence of widespread acceptance, the govt should give advice and information but allow people to make their own decisions. People will assess their own vulnerability and those who wish to adhere to strong precautions will do so.

    Prior to six weeks ago our local hospital did a temperature check on everyone who entered, now it doesn’t, why not? Why aren’t the Nightingale hospitals being used to treat Covid patients in isolation ? It is simple basics that need to be got right, rather than onerous restrictions that have debatable effect for the amount of disruption they cause.

  61. glen cullen
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    You heard it from the man

    There’s no cure or vaccine

    So back to a handkerchief and 2 weeks in bed

  62. Mike Wilson
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    I’m sick to death of the whole thing. COVID Marshalls!!!! Seriously! Do you get a star and a gun? Where can I sign up?

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

      +1

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      Did someone mention a star and a gun, if you get a big stick as well – I’m in

      Who doesn’t love unlimited power

  63. Barbara
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    No government has the right to shut a country down, even piecemeal.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

      +1 and cause people to lose their life’s work! Damages!

    • steve
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

      Barbara

      I think you’ll find it does.

  64. beresford
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    More deportations blocked on tenuous grounds by immigrationist judges. Since Blair all candidates for senior judicial posts have had to demonstrate a commitment to multiculturalism and diversity. Once again this is something the Conservative government could change but chooses not to.

    • Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

      so that justice is no longer blind and we have had about ten years of these appointments now.

  65. Lifelogic
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    So Andrew Bailey is asking if the bank can get ready run negative interest rates. Will these same banks still be charging circa 40% on (complete rip off) personal overdraft rates? As encouraged by the FCA – this while under the control of one Andrew Bailey with his one size fits all economic luncay?

    They will then have infinate profit margins and not just 20,000% as now!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

      infinite

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

      +1

  66. Lifelogic
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Indeed given many sick people in hospital will be being tested regularly, the false positive rates, plus they may well be close to death then it is likely that quite a few UK Covid recorded deaths are no such thing. Only about 2-3 % of death are recorded as Covid.

    If half of these sick patients were tested and the false positive rate is say 2% then nearly half of these death might be falsely recorded?

  67. Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Sir
    I think your questions (1) and (3) are the same thing.

    (1) Why have cases risen for so long in places already under local lock downs?

    Because (3) there is no local buy in to the lock down, as it needs consent to work.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

      Oldwulf Yes, and masks dont’ seem to have worked. Well I never!

  68. Cavewell Man
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Lock downs are a mistake. We should not be discouraging asymptotic infection spread which represents 80-90% of the positive tests as this will improve community immunity. The emphasis should be on protecting the old and vulnerable – and the decision to shield themselves should be theirs alone.

    Then the vast majority of the population and the economy can get back to normal. I am 75 and I have no hesitation in advocating this approach.

  69. Fred H
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Tuesday is 13th – final clock ticks prior the 1812 CANNON?

    • Everhopeful
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

      British establishment pushing its luck again?

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

      +1 Or Else!

    • steve
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

      Fred H

      Indeed so Fred !

      However my money’s on an eleventh hour capitulation to the french. Apparently little Napoleon has demanded that Germany orders the UK to maintain french access to British waters. But you don’t get this news on Boris Broadcasting Corporation…..it’s censored. They don’t want patriotism getting in the way of a good sell out.

  70. Polly
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    What a superb commentary on the great wind power scandal….

    Everyone should read this terrible story, and soon……….

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/your-overwhelming-verdict-on-the-wind-power-scandal/

    Polly

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

      @Polly

      This is interesting. See this link.
      https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012/08/21/communities-against-turbines-scotland-cats-press-release/

      Me and my husband were part of a team that set up this campaigning group in Scotland about 9 years ago when Scotland started erecting wind farms on a scale not seen in the UK before. We highlighted everything in the Conservative Woman’s article all these years ago but people refused to listen. We were the only national campaing group of that time. Unfortunately we moved and the group was taken over by SAS – Scotland Against Spin. They are still campainging hard against wind in Scotland. The village where we used to live is now surrounded by turbines with more in the pipeline and the wildlife has suffered from bird strike, bats killed and farmers setting light to badger sets before the environmental reports have been written. I think man has a lot to answer for. It’s not the climate that’s killing off our natural world – it’s man and what we do. More housing, projects like HS2 and all this green crap which is doing more harm than good. Bees are under threat from pestisides but farmers argue they should be allowed to use them. What’s going to happen to us if bees become extinct? Don’t even go there.

  71. a-tracy
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Liverpool has already been on lockdown, the mayor blames others but what exactly is his job responsible for? Does he feel that he has got out safety messages to the residents in his City when he has his own Merseyside tv show he’s on regularly? Has he done interviews on local radio telling people the dangers of meeting up in big clusters especially in each other’s homes, there is the famous local newspaper the Liverpool Echo why are hundreds if not thousands not listening and just carrying on shopping and getting up close and personal with each other disobeying the 2m rule without masks, this also seems unchallenged by the local police if newspaper pictures are to be believed – frankly I just don’t believe newspapers now.

    Why is Boris Johnson let this narrative get away from him? Johnson did make clear people should restrict their social groupings to less than six. If these younger party people live with elderly and vulnerable people they shouldn’t need to be told that mixing with twenty mates up close with no masks risks spreading the illness to your elderly family, maybe older supermarket workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, local shop keepers and other innocents following the rules who they endanger.

  72. forthurst
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Apparently, ‘Whitehall’ is looking to introduce ‘clusters’ to their track and trace system. Apparently, South Korea has been doing this all along. Apparently, South Korea has been having a far less damaging epidemic than the UK. Apparently, Matt Hancock, Dido Harding and Serco whose CEO is another PPE graduate have been engaged in a flawed coronavirus tracking operation for months resulting in needless deaths and needless lockdowns because they have failed to realise that without identifying clusters and their sources they could not possibly contain the spread of the virus.

  73. Rod
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Our refusal to adopt ‘best practice’ from those countries who have coped far better than us is a damming testament to our arrogance, perhaps even ignorance, that if it’s not invented here, it isn’t worth doing. Wasting time dithering over what to do when it’s patently obvious, as learnt in SARS1 & MERS…

    I count the USA & a lot of EU countries in the poor response category too, repeating these failures will just amplify the widening gulf in performance and continue to disenfrachise the public and voters.

    This Telegraph article details all the main failures (apologies, I know you prefer no links, but this is exceptional).

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/11/repeat-failures-state-locking/

    • steve
      Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

      Rod

      It’s lack of personal hygiene. – Nose picking and wiping mucus on surfaces others touch, not washing hands after visiting loo, spitting, not covering face when coughing or sneezing.

      Government can’t tell it like it is for fear of cultural and to some extent ‘educational’ sensitivities.

  74. Iain Moore
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    One criteria the three tier system doesn’t offer is normal, where the Government isn’t trying to regulate our lives using Covid. Just like the temporary introduction of income tax , a sinister exclusion suggesting the Government isn’t planning for normal ever again.

  75. Original Chris
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    URGENT: Johnson and his Tory MPs should pay heed to the latest WHO guidance. Johnson must be held to account and MPs must demand an explanation why is he ignoring the WHO guidance and subjecting the people of this country to a policy that is not based on science and which is wreaking havoc to the economy/livelihoods, and which “makes poor people an awful lot poorer”.

    WHO GUIDANCE: “We in the WHO do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus. Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer”.

    From news.com australia:
    “WHO backflips on virus stance by condemning lockdowns
    The World Health Organisation has backflipped on its original COVID-19 stance after calling for world leaders to stop locking down their countries and economies”.

  76. Mary M.
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    There was a spirit of unity in the spring because the majority of people trusted the Government’s judgement: that a three-week lockdown was worthwhile to ‘save the NHS’.

    Plenty of beds available in hospitals = no need for further lockdowns.

    Understanding of the virus has improved too. This means that those who end up in hospital are less likely to die either of Covid-19 or with it.

  77. na
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    The opinion polls are massively wrong, everyone is up in arms.

  78. Jacqui
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    All the energy continuing to be attracted to this virus, really is exhausting..
    In March the method of reporting deaths from Covid-19 was changed so as to be ambiguous and easily inflated and the method of reporting continues to be changed to fit the narrative.
    When death rates dropped so low that they were no longer sufficiently frightening, the government changed their justification for restrictions to the number of “cases” which are based on the PCR test.
    The PCR test is not (fit for purpose) it is not specific, gives a huge percentage of false positive results and is not capable of detecting a live virus..
    PCR testing leads to exponential PCR testing, leading to thousands of false positive test results and
    HEALTHY people being put under forced house arrest.

    The devastation the governments policies have and continue to cause are incalculable..
    There will be 1000’s of deaths from lack of NHS screening and treatment.
    According to the BHF and Cancer UK (on avg. every 90 secs. 24hrs a day, someone dies of heart disease or cancer).
    Mental health illnesses, loneliness and suicides.
    Business destroyed, job losses and poverty.
    Loss of our liberties, forced house arrest, restricted freedom of movement and association, muzzles mandated without any scientific evidence except politically motivated compliance regardless of the associated health risks and finally the wilful destruction of the economy.
    All for WHAT..
    These measures appear to be a coordinated response throughout the EU, Canada, Australia etc.

    There is so much evidence and statistical data available now casting serious doubt that this stopped being about “the virus” long ago that every member of parliament who does not question the nefarious narrative being peddled by BJ is complicit in this tyranny.
    The Barrington Declaration signed (so far) by 28,000 Medical Health Professionals and Scientists, is now suddenly being discredited on google..
    Who’d have guessed…!!

  79. Lionel
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Yesterday I was told of two people who booked a Covid test but couldn’t make the appointment. Two days later each received a text telling them that the test was positive and they had to self isolate. I didn’t have much faith in the stats to begin with but it is obvious that the system is corrupt.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      Lionel My son in law had to wait 4 days for his results. Both he and his wife couldn’t go to work. How is that efficient?

  80. Everhopeful
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    I see that the govt. has already planned the date of next year’s school exams. Three weeks late apparently.
    How come our Lockdown govt. is so certain that these anti virus efforts will not have worked?
    Eh?? How come???

  81. Al
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    On a brighter note I must thank the government for the most amusement I have had in months, although suggesting that ballerinas take up a profession the police are usually actively involved in discouraging is not the line I expected to see from authorities.

    Did no one honestly know what the slang term ‘cyber’ means, or even ask their I.T. department? It is even on dictionary.com.

  82. GAME OVER
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    THE SUN SAYS Government is making job-destroying lockdown decisions off the back of flimsy evidence

    ….
    MSM is turning on you.

  83. Anonymous
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Public Health England shows that hospitality contributed to just 4% of traced infections in week 40 and 3% is week 41

  84. Ian@Barkham
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    In the rarefied air that is government great faith is given to track and trace. We the people were assured of privacy. After all it is sold as the NHS track and trace. The flaw is it is nothing to do with the NHS and the data is removed from UK jurisdiction to a commercial company that gets its income from selling personal data. So in essence the UK government has no control or say on what happens to this personal data so its promises are discredited

    Rather than use a secure relative private system of the shelf this government hands over £109 million to a company without experience in this type of tech.

    We the people have to have some control over our tax pounds. This government keeps suggesting they will pay for this that or the other, but they have no money just an endless access to the taxpayers not so deep pockets

  85. na
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Google, the Barrington Declaration and it is on the seventh page of search results, while its detractors came at the top of the list.

  86. Polly
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    This is a great analysis about how C-19 affects different people in different ways, and consequently how the response should be planned and delivered in favor of those likely to be seriously at risk… while allowing normal life for others………

    ”Not all cases’ of Covid are created equally”

    ”Ministers are starting from highly questionable assumptions” By Dr John Lee.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/12/not-cases-covid-created-equal/

    Polly

  87. steve
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    JR

    Good points, but my choice is to just go with what government says. We’re in a national crisis.

    Need less to sayI shall not be voting conservative again because of this government sweeping brexit under the carpet, failing to humiliate Macron, and cosy-ing up with the green lobby.

  88. Fred H
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    So Barnier says the negotiations are close, but need to go on to end of month.
    Simple reply NO. Midnight UK time – – Talks OFF -End of chat.
    NO DEAL.

  89. Fred H
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    170,000 URGENT cancer referrals made in August alone.

  90. Caterpillar
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Sir John,

    Do you feel that the P.M. and Prof. Whitty have answered your questions 1 and 2 today?

  91. Richard
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    An interview with a registered nurse on Lockdown sceptics about the scandal of empty hospitals this summer:
    “Q. For clarification. Your hospital was nearly empty for five-plus months. People who desperately needed surgeries and other treatments were postponed for many months. Was this necessary in your professional opinion?
    Answer: No
    Q. Have you spoken to other nurses in different hospitals? What have their experiences been?
    Answer: They all agree that hospitals have been empty”
    https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/10/10/

    A GP writes about how the NHS has been failing patients since last March: https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/10/11/latest-news-159/#the-year-the-nhs-failed-the-people-of-britain

    And a “top NHS doctor” has some comments upon reviewing the PHE released stats up to Oct 1st:
    “the number of people admitted with an already positive test is quite low as a percentage of the whole – about 20% in the last week of September…
    Some of those positive swabs will be people with covid symptoms – but many are admitted with other things and the positive swab is an incidental finding as they don’t have any covid symptoms – I have heard this from anecdotal discussions, For example every patient admitted (irrespective of the reason for admission) is swabbed on admission, again at five days and weekly thereafter – any positive swab puts them into the ‘covid admission’ column regardless of reason for admission.” https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/10/11/latest-news-159/#a-senior-doctor-writes

    And even Whitehall admits that 40% of excess deaths were Lockdown deaths – 16,000 in just 5 weeks https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8605885/Lockdown-killed-two-people-three-died-coronavirus.html (Whitehall has massaged down the total expected Lockdown deaths from 200,000 to now ‘just’ 85,000 – time will tell.)

  92. matthu
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Barrister Francis Hoar – Judicial Review & The Legality of Lockdown & the Media
    – 12th Oct 2020

  93. Iain Gill
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    when the people have lost everything they have nothing to loose, and many people are loosing everything. its going to get messy. the ruling classes have lost the plot completely.

  94. Simon Coleman
    Posted October 12, 2020 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    The WHO has now had second thoughts about lockdowns. It’s obvious that they don’t work and haven’t worked – anywhere. The inescapable conclusion is that the gov’t WANTS to destroy swathes of jobs in areas that will be less important in the ‘new normal’ society. Pubs, restaurants, theatres, night clubs, recreation places, small shops and businesses of many types have been given a death sentence. As for local consent, I doubt the gov’t and SAGE can even formulate such a concept in their minds.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

      Don’t forget the financial backers – the Chinese – certainly don’t worldwide recession – who will they dump – oops — sell to?

      • Fred H
        Posted October 14, 2020 at 9:08 am | Permalink

        s/be ‘ don’t want worldwide recession’

  95. Andy Jackson
    Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    None of this makes any sense and it feels like something very sinister is going on. Hopefully just common or garden corruption with ‘big pharma’ and incompetence but that looks like a best case scenario.

    • Anonymous
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

      None of this makes any sense and it feels like something very sinister is going on.


      That’s because it is, has it really taken nine months to notice?

    • ed2
      Posted October 13, 2020 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      None of this makes any sense and it feels like something very sinister is going on.

      satanism in action

  96. Lionel
    Posted October 13, 2020 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    I see the Tories are locking down Liverpool, so predictable.

    • a-tracy
      Posted October 14, 2020 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

      Liverpool is locking down Liverpool. Rules haven’t been following there is an outbreak and rising numbers in hospital. If the government ignored this you’d be on here saying the government is killing people in Liverpool Lionel. Get a grip.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 14, 2020 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

      Other towns/cities have a big drinking/ clubbing /partying reputation? Plus something of a history of rebellious behaviour? Might be an idea to find methods to dissuade the young at university locations to change their habits and get freedom back -now facing major lockdown.

  97. Anonymous
    Posted October 13, 2020 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully just common or garden corruption with ‘big pharma’ and incompetence but that looks like a best case scenario.


    It is obviously depopulation. The nutters must think they are saving the world. I blame David Attenborough.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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