Does a vaccine offer a way out?

It is fascinating that a possible vaccine is announced as producing good test results shortly after the US election. Apparently there needs to be more time to evaluate it, with a possible appeal for Regulatory approval starting before the end of this month. The method used is new, and the team developing it will need approval to go to accelerated production and roll out as the request will be before usual testing procedures are exhausted.

The company will need to file details of side effects and the results of their safety tests, as well as latest evidence on how effective it is at preventing people catching CV 19. Apparently people need to be vaccinated twice over a 3 week period to gain reasonable immunity. No-one yet knows how long the beneficial effects will last.

I have some questions about this. How willing would you be to take such a vaccine if approved soon? Should the early doses available go to the most vulnerable and to health workers at risk, as is suggested?

At what point can governments then relax their controls and allow us to return to more normal lives? As it has been the wish of many of the scientific and medical advisers of governments to use vaccines to end this crisis they should now spell out to us how long we have to wait for them to be satisfied that enough vaccine has been administered to fulfil their wishes. They have been reluctant to offer us a Plan B, so the least they can do is to tell us what are the timings and trigger points for declaring success on the vaccine route.

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289 Comments

  1. Lifelogic
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    Great though in the UK many areas are already close to here immunity as we can see from the now declining infection rates with daily death likely to decline in a week or two. There is no other reasonable explanation for this that I can see.

    One glaring fault in the governments published order of who will be offered the vaccine is that men are far more likely to get the disease badly and to die from it. Nearly twice as likely (though varying by age somewhat). So clearly one should adjust by age & gender so that say men over 70 get it and women over 78 (or whatever it works out at).

    If the government “experts” did not even notice this they are clearly no very “expert” indeed I would say negligent. But then politics always overrules reason, logic and real science. As we see endlessly with the climate alarmist religion.

    Is such blatant and idiotic sex discrimination in vaccine distribution even illegal? If you gave 1 million vaccine doses to men over X age you would perhaps save 2Y hospitalisations compared to perhaps Y for the same aged women. So if the Government mantra is “protect the NHS” it clearly needs age adjustments for gender! Also perhaps for blood groups. A seems to be another higher risk factor and indeed employment risks.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:54 am | Permalink

      Close to herd immunity!

      • adenwellssmith
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

        correct. Divide the deaths by the case fatality rate and you get the number infected with a 4 week lag.

      • Hope
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:00 am | Permalink

        Hancock confirms today on national TV those who will be targeted for vaccines. He actually confirms that those elderly and vulnerable groups were the ones who should have been targeted to shield and protect and the rest carry on. He has inadvertently confirmed what many of us said back in March! No national lock down required nor the second one.

        Would it be better he used this as the premise for admitting failure in his resignation letter?

        Come on JR he states the vaccine roll out by age group and vulnerability. He has confirmed his mass national lock was not required and there was another way. Get him out, he cost lives and wrecked the economy for nothing.

      • M Brandreth- Jones
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

        Not sure about that … many are still antibody negative.. ..don’t guess … we are now evidence based ! trouble is evidence take a while to build up.
        You continue lifelogic to negatively criticise everyone, Surely there isn’t just you who has the answers to everything.
        Sorry about the phrasing . it’s medicalese.

    • Andy
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:35 am | Permalink

      You basically want it for you before everyone else? In keeping with how your generation has always behaved.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

        No just want it allocated in the best and most rational way.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

        examples of always behaved??

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

        I want you to be in the first wave Andy.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:52 am | Permalink

      With a vaccine that works true herd immunity and the complete dying out of the epidemic can be achieved.

      There is NO other way.

      The alternative is an endemic disease, with its attrition against us all as we age.

    • Peter
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:24 am | Permalink

      I don’t think the timing of the announcement would have affected the US election but I do think the story and how it is relayed has as much interest as the new vaccine itself.

      I would not be rushing to take it. I mostly avoid medicines where possible. In this case I would prefer others to act as guinea pigs first – and I don’t have covid anyway.

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic, Indeed, Professor Chris Whitty had to write a hasty apology to MPs because he had claimed to them that only younger people in Liverpool showed signs of a reduction in covid19 cases. In fact all ages now show a reduction, as he had to admit. That confirms the herd immunity effect is beginning to show, at least in some localities.

    • Mike Durrans
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

      @Lifelogic

      Don’t waste precious time, give it quickly to the Sheeple who want it, I doubt there are many. I for one will not be submitting to any, just like my rejection of the so called “flu jabs”.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      The suggestion above (of adjusting the age for the different gender risks in the vaccine distribution) and the one below of just giving single vaccine shots initially (until the supply is sufficient) would almost certainly save several hundreds lives.

      I assume therefore that government will do neither logic rarely driving anything with recent UK governments.

      Getting real competition into healthcare (rather than having the dire NHS state monopoly that kills competition) would save many thousands of lives each year and yet no government has dared to do touch the NHS virtual monopoly since was nationalised. Mrs Thatcher did at least have tax relieve for private insurance cover and no 12% insurance tax but this was not enough.

      Now, to go privately, you have to pay four times over. So little choice for most people at all.

  2. formula57
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    “How willing would you be to take such a vaccine if approved soon? – not very since I am glorying in self-isolation, the risks of which I can manage in contrast to those arising from a novel vaccine.

    “Should the early doses available go to the most vulnerable and to health workers at risk, as is suggested? – no, there could be unwelcome side effects so give early doses to the feckless who eschewed self-responsibility during lock-downs, failing whom to those who deny Covid 19 exists.

    • Martyn G
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:27 am | Permalink

      I couldn’t have put it better myself! Approaching 80, as I am, I’ll continue to wait it out whilst taking all sensible precautions, as I have been since March. We all die, it’s just a matter of why and when, meanwhile just carry on as best one can.

      • Hope
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:02 am | Permalink

        Give it to MPs and ministers first. Them be the guinea pigs of their own experiment.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

        Life expectancy for the average male at 80 is about 9 years. Well worth having the vaccine I would have thought. At least one might feel able to socialise and do things safely again.

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

      Radio 5 has just reported that the 50 million doses initially available would only be enough to innoculate the world’s healthcare workers. Now, get out onto your doorstep and start clapping!

      • glen cullen
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

        +1 never stop clapping

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:41 am | Permalink

      The feckless (as you put it) and Covid deniers won’t accept the vaccine anyway, so your plan won’t work.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      The vaccine has been tested on tens of thousands with no serious ill-effects noted.

      The virus has too.

      It kills about one-in eighty.

      You make zero sense, but then you back brexit and Trump.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 11:37 am | Permalink

        On 19 Oct 2020 Cuomo said New Yorkers should be sceptical about this very vaccine. People who played politics with this vaccine announcement are the ones responsible now for the scepticism.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      No chance of me being vaccinated until it’s been around several years. I remember Thalidomide, that was a new wonder drug.
      Give it to nhs workers and they get sick, that would be a result.
      I’m 75.

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

      Formula 57, What do you call ” eschew[ing] self-responsibility”? If you mean knowing that the first lockdown as a national policy did not work – given that the infection to death time is about 4 weeks, and lockdown to death toll reduction was about two and a half weeks – I would call that responsible.

      The second lockdown isn’t working either because some of the hardest hit areas are already recovering – far too fast for the lockdown to have affected the outcomes. Moreover, it is unscientific to change the conditions in mid-experiment.

    • steve
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

      f57

      “…. to those who deny Covid 19 exists.”

      ===========

      Oh it exists, just not and never was pandemic. It’s syndemic i.e relies on comorbidity which is mainly characteristic of old age, and of course self abuse i.e gluttony, obesity, booze etc. In other words; the very minority that should have been separated and shielded so the rest of us can get on with keeping the economy afloat.

      Con of the century.

  3. Mick
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Of course it offers a way out, if everyone is given the vaccine its a very high chance of the virus dying out greatly increases

    • Everhopeful
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:08 am | Permalink

      It doesn’t though.
      That is what they will claim.
      It is an avenue towards more and more control.
      Look at the markets.
      Virus=vaccine=control=money

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

      Mick, The vaccine offers a way out for the government, and Boris, because it gets them out of the useless lockdown hole they’ve dug for themselves. It’s all politics, not medicine.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

      until the bat-lady sings again.

  4. DOMINIC
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    There is a shortage of real detail in the new vaccine announcement, which to me strikes as a bit of a white-wash. Let’s explore the info we have in a bit more detail.

    Around 44,000 trial participants. Phase 3 is principally about understanding the efficacy (identifying risks would have been largely done in Ph. 2) so it’s likely there would have been around a 2:1 ratio of vaccine vs. placebo (whether that was saline or another vaccine…with it’s own risks/benefits).

    So let’s assume around 30k were given the vaccine and 15k the placebo.

    We can also be pretty sure this wasn’t a “challenge” trial. i.e. participants were not directly infected with coronavirus (which would have been unethical especially for those given the placebo), so the trial would have relied on participants just picking up the virus “by chance”.

    So what proportion of the trial population would have been expected to become exposed or infected during the period that the trial has been ongoing? Without knowing exactly when, and where and in what numbers the trial was undertaken this is difficult to address. Globally the case rate per million increased from c. 2.8k in mid Aug, to 4.5k in late Oct (WoM data).. An increase of 1.7k, or 1.7 persons per 1000.

    So of the 44k trial participants, you would have expected just 75 people to have become new cases. (Again, we don’t know for sure what is meant by “case” in that data as it varies from country to country, from tested positive, thru’ symptomatic, to requiring medical intervention.

    Since the trial reports 94 who benefited, this suggests it was undertaken in regions where it is spreading more aggressively.

    It then raises the question of the definition of “benefited”… Less symptoms, less severity, less hospitalisations, or less deaths. Let’s look at deaths over that same period. WoM data indicates that globally the fatality rate increased from 99 to 132 per million. Out of the 44,000 trial participants this equates to just 1.5, so there would have expected 1 or 2 fatalities, or just one in the vaccine group.

    But of course, they only used young people for their trial, so the (expected) fatality rate would have been much, much less. Clearly avoidance of death was not a principal aim…!!!

    Some reports I’ve seen suggest that naturally acquired immunity (either pre-existing, or due exposure to CV whether asymptomatic or otherwise) can be as high 20-30% in some populations. This would suggest 9-13,000 of the trial participants could have natural protection anyway.

    So what do I conclude from this quick analysis.

    1. Without a lot more detail it is pretty inconclusive.

    2. Will it be as “successful” in the target group. i.e Over 70’s or health workers (that might be expected to be exposed to higher & more frequent viral loads).

    3. A “challenge” trial is essential to confirm the efficacy before rolling it out globally.

    4. Market reaction is premature, whether pharma stocks, indices, oils, or PMs.

    5. Even if it does get rolled out globally, it could take 2-3 years until everyone gets vaccinated.

    6. Don’t book your overseas holiday quite yet..

    ————–

    • Iain gill
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:43 am | Permalink

      Yep we need the detail.

      • Hope
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

        I took the announcement to be PR to get the news off the fake figures for the second lock down that was not required. It was necessary to take the heat off govt incompetence, again.

        Secondly, to keep eyes off the Brexit capitualtion. I thought we are past the Johnson point where the U.K. Had to walk to get preparations sorted? What does business do at this point JR? When does the repudiation of the WA and NIP take place before 31/12/2020?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Not everyone needs the vaccine. We are very close to (or over) herd immunity levels anyway in many places.

    • Ed M
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      Great comment, thanks

    • bigneil(newercomp)
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      Dom – regarding N06. No need to go overseas. Overseas are coming to us. Permanently.

    • Julian Wilkinson
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:08 am | Permalink

      Yes, there could be much to learn from the detail, and not just about the vaccine itself. In particular, the whole Covid thing has been built on testing rather than clinical diagnosis of symptoms. For example, what if the vaccine did not affect, or even increased, asymptomatic PCR positives? What if it reduced symptomatic PCR negatives? Where would that leave diagnosis by testing?

      I hope that John is able to press for full disclosure and independent analysis.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

      Dear DOM–To say market reaction is premature is to misunderstand how markets work. One could say and I do that if wait till no longer premature it is too late.

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

      Dominic, Thank you, nicely argued, with reasonable figures and sensible assumptions.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

      No – many more people have had it bit did not know. The antibody testing does not pick up most of them. In many places about 25% of the population have had it.

      In my daughters student flat (of 6) 100% have had it and non has any significant symptoms. Only tested as one boys girlfriend had & it so told to test.

    • forthurst
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

      Pfizer are claiming that their vaccine gives 90% protection from (symptomatic?) covid-19. This means that for each 100 cases of Covid-19 in the placebo group, 10 will get the disease in the vaccinated group after comparing identically matched populations. No other quantities are relevant.

    • SecretPeople
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      Excellent dissection of the obfuscation. We can look forward to the answers.

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    As you say it seems that the vaccine company suggest two injections over the three week period. I strongly suspect that giving just 1 injection to twice as many people (this during the roll out when supplies are limited) with a catch up later would be far more effective at saving lives.

    This surely should be carefully considered. It seems logical that this would be the case to me. This as someone who has already had one inject is likely to have developed some immunity already from the first injection so better to give it to someone who has not. Also little point in giving the vaccine to the people who have already had the infection. This is likely to be over 25% in some areas. So a test for this before wasting precious vaccine is surely sensible.

    • Iain gill
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:40 am | Permalink

      It’s not that precious. It will be made in bog standard vaccine production lines. The bottleneck will mostly be capacity to administer it, but that can get dumbed down to very low skilled staff as the NHS does.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:09 am | Permalink

        Hopefully you are right – but but my point still stands while there is some shortage where ever the bottle neck is in the short term.

      • The Prangwizard
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:39 am | Permalink

        When I went for my flu jab at the GP’s a few weeks back I was wearing a light jacket. When I took it off I put on the back of a chair close by but was told to remove it as it was behind the invisible line I was not allowed to cross. When I asked where I could put it I was told ‘on the floor’.

        That’s the abysmal standard of thinking we are faced with everywhere.

      • M Brandreth- Jones
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

        What do you mean by this ” low skilled”?

    • BJC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:01 am | Permalink

      Call me an old cynic LL, but double the dose is double the profit!

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

        +1 one can rarely be too cynical I find.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

        And when you don’t get CV19, as most of us have not got CV19, they will claim success!

        • NickC
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

          Lynn A, They claim success for the first lockdown even though the data say otherwise, so what’s to stop them?

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:46 am | Permalink

      I strongly suspect that giving just 1 injection to twice as many people (this during the roll out when supplies are limited) with a catch up later would be far more effective at saving lives.

      Notwithstanding your suspicions, and your expertise in almost all things, one might venture to suggest that what you know about vaccine production in general, and this new vaccine method in particular, could fit on the back of a postage stamp in multiple languages.

      Or you an expert in DNA and RNA and vaccine production and testing?

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

        Mike W, Your “expertise” is bigger than Lifelogic’s “expertise?? Hmmm, I’ve heard that one before.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

      Dear Lifelogic–What are we going to do with you? From sound of things Pfizer very much know what they are doing and if they say 2 injections are necessary that is the way it has to be. Hard to see why they would create a rod for their own back without good reason. Might just as well “suspect” that half a dose spread over four people is Way To Go.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:25 am | Permalink

        I am merely suggesting that, while it is in short supply, it is probably better to give one dose to twice as many people. If the first dose gives some protection (as is surely must do) you surely will get better herd immunity more quickly with that approach. Perhaps not for some technical reason but I suspect I am right.

        Certainly give the two doses when sufficient is available.

        • Leslie Singleton
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:42 am | Permalink

          Dear Lifelogic–Our Science Master at School routinely threatened to flog any boy using “surely” in Science discussion. You may be right about the first dose but you may not. There is far too much second-guessing of just about everything under the sun these days. My money bets Pfizer have good reason for the two doses. Could be something simple along lines of first dose establishing the vaccine’s presence but with little effect on its own. Or maybe some sort of Activation Energy (I speak loosely) needs to be overcome.

  6. Mark B
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    So after centuries of not being able to cure the common cold, influenza and the like, within months we have a cure. This comes as no surprise as certain individuals have been pushing vaccination for a very long time. Very suspicious 😉

    I shall not be taking it but I guess that the government will decree that unless you have taken it you will not be able to travel and access State services. So no schools. No world beating NHS. Possibly denied even the right vote or have a government job. This is what Statism is like. When they have control of everything, sooner or later they will want to control you. The Muzzles being an overt symbol of compliance.

    This is how freedom dies. People are made to fear something so terrible they will surrender everything to gutless despots.

    • Iain gill
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:37 am | Permalink

      Agreed. Mass compliance to a health care system which lets us down routinely at our hour of need, massive spend on propoganda for it, treating a nationalised industry as a religion we must clap for.

      • Hope
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        Simon Stevens was policy health advisor to Blaire now head of left wing political NHS. I wonder why management of the NHS is so left wing? Why so bureaucratic, why so inefficient where bean counting and virtue signaling more important than providing health care? Why has Simon Stevens declared the long term health problem is climate change? Fake Tories could have put anyone in charge after ten years, they chose, yes chose New Labour health policy advisor.

        After the biggest public health policy failing in NHS history why is Stevens and co still in post?

        Come on JR and Lynne, tell us why?

      • DavidJ
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

        Indeed.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

        A nationalist industry that kills nearly all competition as you have to pay four times over to opt for private care. In taxes for others, tax and NI on the extra you need to earn to take out you insurance, then the premium and then 12% IPT tax on top. Then the state takes them over and shuts many down anyway.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:29 am | Permalink

          nationalised

    • Simeon
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:16 am | Permalink

      I think your instincts are sound. But not only are states pushing the vaccine, so too is big business. I wouldn’t be taking a vaccine whose long term effects were unknown even if it were for a virus many magnitudes more virulent than this one. The notion of being vaccinated against something that is not serious, for the purpose of… well, who knows what purpose, is absurd. The way forward is for government to stand down, get out of the way, and stop trying to control people’s everyday lives.

      That said, if others wanted to take such a vaccine because, in their view, it made sense to take such a risk, this would be fine by me. Though the issue then is that I and other taxpayers are footing the bill – as indeed we are regardless of whether a vaccine is produced or not. Were the state not the arbiters of legality, this would literally be a criminal waste of money. So it is only fair that those who want the vaccine – and only these – should cover the costs of it. If this were the case, I suspect that anyone who desired the vaccine could have it. Everyone is then a winner, except greedy pharmaceutical companies, assuming that the very, very rich baulk at paying millions per shot…

    • Gramp
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      There has obviously been an incomparable effort to find a vaccine for coronavirus because it kills unlike the common cold. Following a quick Google the flu vaccine has been in existence since 1938, and that vaccine is changed
      every year. I see no reason to be suspicious at all. Surely you must agree that science is advancing rapidly these days. I will be pleased to receive the vaccine asap.

      • Lynn Atkinson
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

        Why do you think the flu vaccine ‘changes every year’?

        • Fred H
          Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

          to sell another lot of millions of doses?

    • Nigl
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      More fool you

    • BOF
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:27 am | Permalink

      Agreed, Mark.

    • agricola
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:42 am | Permalink

      Vaccination is a preventive measure not a cure. All those killer bugs of past centuries are still around and possibly mutating like flu, our numerous vaccinations only keep them in their box. Antibiotics are cures for immediate problems like chlamydia but they do not stop you getting it again if you choose unwisely. Vaccination gives you immunity, which in the case of Covid19 is for a period unknown.

      As to the approach to the containment of Covid19 being a government plot to subjugate us all, I do not buy it. Government prove time after time that they are incapable of organising anything.

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

      Mark B, Yes it’s very disturbing. C S Lewis said he feared those who wish to control us for our own good much more than robber barons.

    • steve
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

      Mark B

      “So after centuries of not being able to cure the common cold, influenza and the like, within months we have a cure. Very suspicious”

      =============

      Exactly, very suspicious indeed. A cure for the common cold and flu has been possible for many years. It’s just that there’s lots of money to be made out of the cold virus. i.e 20 quid or so from the average punter for medicines that don’t work.

      Cough medicine is a fine example…..a bottle of gnats piss containing no opioids whatsoever at 7 quid a go.

      As you say, very suspicious.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

      There are literally hundreds of different viruses that give us a common cold, that’s why a vaccine is not tenable, that and the fact the common cold doesn’t actually kill us.

  7. Andrew Potts
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    The threat we are confronting is that of authoritarian government. The vaccine is unable to deal with this threat. I will not be taking the vaccine or voluntarily cooperating with government in any way until the authoritarians have been dealt to. The social contract is broken.

    • Iain gill
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:34 am | Permalink

      Yep the social contract is broken, I will make a decision on vaccine when I find out more, and see what scientists I trust say. I don’t trust the NHS or government to get it correct.

      • DavidJ
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

        +1

      • steve
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

        Iain Gill

        “and see what scientists I trust say”

        In my experience scientist cannot be trusted. None of them had a normal upbringing, most lack empathy and would sell their granny for sixpence. Quite a large percentage of them completely devoid of moral compass, and the vast majority lack any sense of patriotism.

        Pick any scientist you like and run by proxy the B & H psychopathy test, available online….I think you will find yourself shocked at the result.

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:49 am | Permalink

      I won’t be buying your logic.

      • Mockbeggar
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:32 am | Permalink

        Neither will I.

    • Simeon
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:17 am | Permalink

      Absolutely right.

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

      Andrew Potts, We will have to very carefully think through our responses to authorities who tyrannise us for our own good. In the USSR, anti-communists were treated as insane or criminalised. It appears that the petty-tyrants in government and the establishment are headed the same way. They are already using an incremental ratchet of control – each extra bit isn’t quite worth rebelling against. They aren’t making the mistake of imposing it all at once where it would be easy to see, and we could gain traction in resisting.

    • steve
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

      Andrew Potts

      + 1 Sir.

      I shall not be taking any vaccine endorsed by this government.

      I don’t trust them. They’re a bunch of wimps answering to big business and sneaky globalists.

      You’re right, the social contract is broken. For me it was breached on Oct 16th.

      It’s war now.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

        What “social contract”?

        Don’t you get what a Tory government is?

        Dear me.

  8. Cheshire Girl
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Im in the ‘vulnerable’ group (age), and I will take the vaccine when offered. The alternative is not acceptable to me.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

      Likewise

  9. Lifelogic
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    On “protecting the NHS” it still seems to be the case that the vast majority of the excess deaths about 90% or so are not actually occurring in hospitals at all. They are happening at home or in nursing homes.

    This perhaps due to NHS rationing treatments and access and the “protects the NHS” message. Perhaps the message should be “protect the NHS and die elsewhere please”?

    • NickC
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic, It appears that the NHS is becoming ossified. I suppose that’s necessary for idol worship.

    • steve
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

      LL

      “the vast majority of the excess deaths about 90% or so are not actually occurring in hospitals at all”

      =================

      I have no sympathy for the NHS, not when their office admin go to my local supermarket and receive a whopping 60 % discount simply because they have an NHS card.

      I have a driving licence, a passport, and two decorations for bravery, I’m also classified as a key worker – in the Defence supply chain…..where’s MY! 60% discount ?

      Oh I forgot, I don’t wear my backside out sitting in front of a PC and drinking coffee all day. That must be what it is.

      And I’m invited to clap for these (people ed)

    • Fred H
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

      The best advertisement for any vaccine, audited attendance of course, is to have all the Health service leaders numbering dozens, and all the Cabinet members lined up to receive the vaccine. And within 2-3 weeks they do it again for their second dose.

      Then I might want it!

  10. Stred
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    What about the Oxford vaccine. Isn’t that going to be available in less time than the American and why is the BBC leading on this new vaccine because it is helping their preferred president of the USA?

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:42 am | Permalink

      Yes, I wanted to ask if the Oxford vaccine was any different? Anyone know? This one from Pfiser sounds as though it has been VERY rushed through.

    • Christine
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:00 am | Permalink

      The Government bought a vaccine producing facility to manufacture the Oxford vaccine. They needed a new machine but this has been stuck in the Government procurement process for 4 months even though they knew which machine was the best option. Now they are at the back of the worldwide queue to buy a machine and also the best option choice has been knocked back in favour of another. The production staff have been left with no work. Something is very fishy around this whole business. One could be cynical and suggest the Government don’t want to find a vaccine. Let’s hope there are other manufacturing plants available.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

      If it were then the Oxford researchers would be making an announcement rather than Pfizer, wouldn’t they?

  11. Iain gill
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    One of the vaccines in shortlist of being available early needs lower temperature fridge freezer than normal domestic ones, so those fridges could become a bottleneck.
    They clearly have not had time to test vaccines against new strain of virus coming from mink.
    They won’t know how long the vaccine gives protection for, it may only be a couple of months.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:13 am | Permalink

      It will not work against the new Mink one some vaccine expert said yesterday.

    • Simeon
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:32 am | Permalink

      If, as some evidence suggests, and as previous experience with these types of virus dictates, the ‘initial’ virus is mutating – indeed has mutated – then any vaccine’s efficacy will be limited. This might be worrying were it not for the fact that viruses mutate in such a way as to become more prevalent but less virulent, reducing drastically, if not eliminating completely, the need for a vaccine.

    • M Brandreth- Jones
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

      Our vaccines are stored between 2-8 degrees centigrade . I am not sure what temperature this new vaccine would be stored at ?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

        Minus 80 apparently

  12. Sea_Warrior
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    This is good news – but I won’t be standing first in line for a vaccine that has been rushed through development. I can mitigate the risk of catching COVID through good hygiene. But there’s an interesting issue for Grant Shapps to ponder: how to juggle vaccination and testing capabilities together so as to be able to get the Air Travel industry back on its feet. I hope that he is working on this now. And even thought I am the Brexiteeriest of Brexiteers, he should be working the issue at an international-level.

    • Northern Monkey
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      I have no intention of joining the mass trial of this vaccine that even the manufacturer is so worried about that they are prepared to release the vaccine only if the government covers their public liability.

      Good luck to all you vaccinauts on your journey of discovery…

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:48 am | Permalink

      The Air Travel industry, in the scheme of things, is an irrelevance. Why should it be got ‘back on its feet’.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

      Bit of a silly ask, that last bit then eh?

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

        Martin, Can you explain why working internationally is precluded by deciding not to be governed by the EU? In fact the opposite of what you say is true (Nick’s Law) – without having to ask the EU’s permission, we can now work with anyone in the world.

  13. No Longer Anonymous
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Personally I would take the vaccine – I see it as a risk but would do it to get the economy going again. Just as I felt I was taking a big personal risk when I agreed to work through lockdown. Initially I was petrified but it’s amazing how quickly one gets tired of being scared.

    If I were young and planning on children, however, I probably wouldn’t take this vaccine.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:23 am | Permalink

      It is a “lesser of two downsides” calculation I will certainly take the Vaccine as I am male, getting on a little and blood group A. Though I am fortunately not bald – another risk factor it seems.

      Lockdown is also a lesser of two downsides calculation. It seems the government have negligently not even done any assessment of the downsides of lockdown. Perhaps why they have got it so wrong. Climate change and the foolish war on plant food likewise again no assessment of the damage or costs (as Peter Lilley pointed out at the time of the absurd Climate Change Bill).

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

        Though a little extra atmospheric CO2 has more upsides than downs most sensible scientist think.

    • Philip P.
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:22 am | Permalink

      The vital question when testing a vaccine is what are its side-effects. I don’t think it’s usual to allow only three months for them to appear, as these experimenters have done.

      Also, the trial subjects don’t seem to have included older people, which is odd as this demographic is the one most at risk from SARS-CoV-2.

      So the results published so far do not tell us about the risk of side-effects on the age-group who are most vulnerable. They are the ones, however, who it is planned to vaccinate first. I can’t help thinking they will be the guinea pigs.

      I’m in my 60s and I will certainly not be a guinea-pig for this vaccine.

    • Richard416
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      A few weeks ago this same government was saying “take a test to get the economy going” or words to that effect, but it seems to have had the opposite effect.

    • Alpipp
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 6:58 am | Permalink

      Well said – the vaccine is a RNA type of vaccine. So it should only be given to women post menopause. I also agree that only key health workers and the at risk group need to be vaccinated ,- which is what they do with the flu jab. So just toll out the vaccine on the flu jab database excluding women under 50.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

      If you have worked through the lockdown and have not contracted the dreaded lurgy, why don’t you think you are immune, why do you think you need to be vaccinated?

  14. Bob Dixon
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    I fell for the virus in February 2020.I had high blood pressure and suffered 2 mini strokes. It has left me with Long COVID.
    It is good news that vaccines will be available.I will not be rushing to use it.I will wait until I can trust it to protect me.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

      You almost certainly now do not need the vaccine. Best wishes to you.

  15. Lifelogic
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    I see that Sunak made a rather misguided speech yesterday – announcing proposed new climate alarmist red tape for company reporting requirements (to add to the gender pay lunacy of Theresa May). Plus we have misguided moves by various parts of the “Wealth Management” industry to discriminate against the more sensible climate realist companies.

    A “wealth” industry that has done so much to depress the wealth of so many as we saw with RBS, equitable life, Leman Brothers and countless more.

    Sunak please listen. For the economy to recover rapidly (and for the Tories to win the next election in four years or less) it is very simple – we need a far smaller state sector, lower simpler taxes, a bonfire of red tape, easy hire and fire, cheap on demand energy and real freedom of choice (without market rigging) in healthcare, education, energy, housing and broadcasting. Relaxation of planning and far fewer soft university loans (that mainly end up dumped on the taxpayers). This for the largely duff and largely worthless university degrees – often in fairly worthless/hobby subjects too.

  16. SM
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    No, I would not personally accept vaccination because of utterly insufficient trialling.

    However, I might be persuaded to reconsider if given verifiable proof that all those in charge – Govt scientific advisers, Health Ministers, pro-vaccine MPs of all Parties, pharmaceutical company Directors – had taken the full course and suffered no serious side-effects.

    Oh, and if the NHS cannot handle elective surgery for serious conditions, and is cancelling urgent investigations into possible cancer growths, how does Simon Stevens or Matt Hancock imagine it will cope with millions of people requiring 2 carefully-timed appointments? Phlebotomy clinics are making people queue OUTSIDE their premises, sometimes for up to an hour, in order to get vital blood tests, according to reports from friends in London!

    • rose
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

      I prefer queuing outside. I have never liked sitting in stuffy, germ-infested waiting rooms. This, and the greater tolerance for having windows open on buses, are among the good side effects of all this.

  17. matthu
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    They reveal on BBC that 94 people in the trials developed symptoms and were tested for the virus. Why were only those with symptoms being tested? Here in UK, we have surely been persuaded that even asymptomatic people need to be tested in order to assess efficacy of any measure to defeat the virus.

    • matthu
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 5:52 am | Permalink

      Above comment was still awaiting moderation almost 24 hours after posting, so I am providing additional detail here from Pfizer’s web site

      https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against

      Monday, November 09, 2020 – 06:45am
      Vaccine candidate was found to be more than 90% effective in preventing COVID-19 in participants without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection in the first interim efficacy analysis
      Analysis evaluated 94 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in trial participants

      After discussion with the FDA, the companies recently elected to drop the 32-case interim analysis and conduct the first interim analysis at a minimum of 62 cases. Upon the conclusion of those discussions, the evaluable case count reached 94 and the DMC performed its first analysis on all cases. The case split between vaccinated individuals and those who received the placebo indicates a vaccine efficacy rate above 90%, at 7 days after the second dose. This means that protection is achieved 28 days after the initiation of the vaccination, which consists of a 2-dose schedule. As the study continues, the final vaccine efficacy percentage may vary. The DMC has not reported any serious safety concerns and recommends that the study continue to collect additional safety and efficacy data as planned. The data will be discussed with regulatory authorities worldwide.

      The Phase 3 clinical trial of BNT162b2 began on July 27 and has enrolled 43,538 participants to date, 38,955 of whom have received a second dose of the vaccine candidate as of November 8, 2020. Approximately 42% of global participants and 30% of U.S. participants have racially and ethnically diverse backgrounds. The trial is continuing to enroll and is expected to continue through the final analysis when a total of 164 confirmed COVID-19 cases have accrued.

      • matthu
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 5:53 am | Permalink

        Why have we been persuaded that even asymptomatic people need to be tested in order to assess efficacy of any measure to defeat the virus?

  18. Caterpillar
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    It is fascinating that the original target for number of cases observed before publicizing the results was increased, this leading to a delay of the announcement until after the election. Hopefully the reasons for this will become public knowledge. If this does not happen then it is inevitable that people will reflect on President Trump’s efforts to reduce drug prices in the USA to increase accessibility, and therefore what interests might come to play.

    (Nonetheless the President’s successes in combining Govt direction and supporting private response, for both vaccine and treatments, appear to be coming to fruition. I doubt he will get any credit.)

  19. John Halom
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    An untested, unprovern and possibly lethal vaccine for a virus that hasn’t been proved to exist is not a way out. It is a path to slavery. When the government starts forcing vaccinations or simply making it impossible to live if you don’t take it then freedom is gone- possibly forever and all those that believe the lies will have got what they deserve.

  20. davews
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    I am not anti-vaccine (had my flu jab last week – in the GP surgery car park for heavens sake!) but this hastily rushed one is one to stay well clear of. Since the infection rates are now declining and if the vaccine doesn’t actually stop you getting it or passing it on but only reduces the symptoms it all seems pretty pointless. It is far more important to prove that lockdowns do nothing and get the world back to normality regardless. Total normality is of course what I mean, hugs and kisses all round.

  21. Caterpillar
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    I don’t think vaccination alone offers a way out of the apocalyptic vision (and actions) of Whitty, JVT, Vallance, Hancock and Sunak. I hope it provides the PM with the chance to force a change though (and cure us of the people above). Vaccination combined with other measures can aid protection so give a route for the PM into the GBD strategy, vaccination also helps to reduce R so gives a route into micro interventions under sustainable behaviour patterns. The P.M. has the opportunity to pick up better strategies and amplify their effectiveness through strategic use of vaccination.

  22. Enigma
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    An RNA-based vaccine has never been used in humans before but is being rushed out without proper safety testing. I won’t be risking it thanks. Not only that but the manufacturers have total indemnity if anything goes wrong!

  23. Andy
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    It’ll clearly go to old people who tend to vote Conservative first.

    Those same old people are flat refusing to pay their share of the costs of the lockdown – which is, after all, designed to protect them.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      Most of us on here would recommend you have it first, and the second dose ASAP.

    • Edward
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

      Give us examples of old people flat refusing to pay for their share of the costs of lockdown.

      More ridiculous discriminatory nonsense from you andy.

    • NickC
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

      Andy, In general, it is not the “old people” on here who want the lockdowns that cause so much damage both to people’s health and the national economy, it’s you.

  24. thud
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    The people at Pfizer, Astra etc know what they are doing and built on the work done on Sars and Mers. I’m happy to take the vaccine and help rid the world of this problem.

  25. Caterpillar
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    Would I have ‘the’ vaccine? It is nice to imagine us returning to a country of liberty. I seriously doubt we are going to be in a position of informed consent. Fear, force, compliance, payment seem to be this Govt’s approach – information and choice is not part of this Conservative Govt.

    If I had choice, clearly the data to date indicates the Pfizer vaccine is superior to the ‘Oxford’ one, but we need to see much more detail. As I don’t work in a high risk environment, nor at high frequency with the more vulnerable I would like the choice to weigh the evidence. Whether the UK has sufficient competence to distribute the cold storage, two shot vaccination is of some concern to me.

  26. Roy Grainger
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Quite odd that some posters here seem to think the government can choose who takes the vaccine or not – they can’t and a significant percentage of all groups will refuse. My strategy would be to offer it to all vulnerable groups and those over 60 – when everyone in those groups has had a chance to say yes or no to it then abandon all restrictions and open up again.

    The vaccine will always be available for those who want it in the future, and some countries may require vaccination before you are allowed to travel there (as is already the case for some other diseases).

    • rose
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

      Quite right. The faintest whiff of compulsion is going to have people stampeding in the opposite direction, and it is extremely foolish to try and censor discussion on the subject, let alone criminalise it as has been suggested by some.

  27. Iain gill
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    John, this lockdown is just being ignored. The vast majority of ordinary people have lost faith in the government and their advisors. It’s ridiculous carrying on like this. There is a massive common sense failure. Please tell the government.
    Thanks

  28. The Other Christine
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    In answer to your question, the answer has to be ‘no’. My reason for this answer is nothing to do with controlling the spread of this virus but everything to do with alarm at how it will be used to control my life. Talk of a digital passport is becoming more prevalent. Can you all see where this is leading? Ownership of such a passport would enable you to travel, attend sporting events and anything else a government decides, probably without the consent of Parliament as this government has illustrated it can do with impunity. By all means have the vaccination if you want but for heaven’s sake don’t allow its existence to be used as a way of curtailing civil liberties. This government has had a taste of how easy it is to mandate all sorts of restrictions on its citizens. A bit like a tiger which having tasted human blood will always return for another kill. Be warned everyone!

  29. Iago
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Test these ‘vaccines’ on those who kept the airports open before and during the lockdown.

    • NickC
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

      That would be Andy, then.

  30. BeebTax
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    I don’t trust the government or media any more. I won’t take the vaccine because they suggest I do.

    I’ll do what research I can, wait to see if the early takers have side effects (though news of that would doubtless be suppressed), keep on taking vitamin D & Zinc and have a stock of the other protective compounds ready to self-administer should I go down with the virus. I might be more likely to take the virus after 12-18 months of its widespread use, if it appears efficacious and safe.

    • BeebTax
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:56 am | Permalink

      Oops, I meant take the vaccine, not the virus. Though at times one feels one may as well catch it, and get it over with.

  31. Sharon
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Just seen on lockdown Sceptics

    Barry Norris of Argonaut Capital Partners – an expert on the biotech sector – his concluding paragraph,

    “In terms of timing, they are suggesting mass vaccinations in time for the 2021/2022 coronavirus season which suggests at least another six months of virus suppression policies, including lockdowns.”

  32. Everhopeful
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    First port of call. Look up the credentials of the drug firm making the vaccine.
    Trump is not a fan of this company.
    Second. One jab will not be the end of it.
    Oh no…Health Passports …some shenanigans already re testing and passport office.
    And probably annual jabs.
    The more sheep that queue up to have it done the more likely it will be mandatory.
    And consider…they are already putting out the feelers for furthering “infection” re mink.
    As I said from day one…they will not let go of this…it is just too good.

  33. Wokinghamite
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    We should be willing to take the vaccine, even if it is a little premature. There must be greater risk in not taking vaccine.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

      Why ‘must’ there be?

  34. No Longer Anonymous
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    John Major says we should get used to not being a first-rate global power.

    As a Brexit voter I already knew this and was dismayed at our interventions in the Middle East even before they became exposed as disasters.

    Just what is wrong with being a Little Englander who wants to be moderately defended and doesn’t want to do anyone any harm and doesn’t want mess in other people’s affairs ?

    I know what Mr Major and other PMs don’t and that is We Don’t Know Best.

  35. agricola
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    In answer to your last paragraph you might as well have asked Scott what he expected to find at the South Pole. He didn’t know until he got there and that must have been a disappointment to him when he did. The effectiveness of a vaccine and it’s longevity are not judgable at this point, only probabilities at best. The twentieth century has seen the creation of a host of vaccines, most of which have proved effective in preventing a myriad of conditions that limited life span in previous centuries. Lets hope that this one and other parallel efforts are just as effective. The worry for everyone is the very remote chance of triggering a Thalidomide or contaminated blood situation, both of which found our government wanting. This is not the same and I am sure that we now have the control mechanisms in place to ensure this vaccine is problem free. If politicians who generally know nothing in this area stay off the backs of those that do I am sure we will eventually get there. Until then we are stuck with basic hygiene.

  36. margaret howard
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    A great day for EU achievement. The European Investment bank gave 500m euros to the German company BioNTech which invented the vaccine. Even more astonishing is the fact that the company was only founded in 2008 by a Turkish born German immigrant Ugur Sahin and his scientist wife Ozlem Tureci. Amazing success and no doubt a huge benefit to mankind!

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

      Let’s see if it works.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:30 am | Permalink

        It has already been shown with near-certainty to work and safely too.

        What is not know is how long the immunity will last, but anything of around a year or more would enable its use to extinguish the epidemic.

        • Fred H
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 9:16 am | Permalink

          what about travel? – trains and boats and planes…as Dionne Warwick used to sing. Your beloved Chinese are even disinfecting imported goods.
          By the way – what happened with their 9m city Covid testing over one week?

        • a-tracy
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 11:57 am | Permalink

          When were the tests done? Which government authority stamped them with the near-certainty to work?

          It’s a bit like these people we see night after night on the news that bought flats with government-approved, near-certain to work cladding, passed by EU regulations and now their block of flats are so dangerous they can’t sell them. The builders are washing their hands of it saying the cladding was approved…

        • NickC
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

          Martin, Long term safety has not been shown – there hasn’t been enough time to show it. Obviously.

  37. Pat
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    At this stage we are almost at herd immunity as far as the virus is concerned, so from that point of view a vaccine is of little importance.
    However the panic still exists and needs to be dealt with.
    The vaccine would provide an excuse for government to declare the panic over, and would be extremely useful for that reason.
    Applied to healthcare workers first it would enable the NHS to use all its staff, and thus solve its current manpower shortage.
    Frankly, so long as people believe in it it’s practical efficiency doesn’t matter. It’s safety however does.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      Interesting to see if the NHS staff would take the vaccine. I know some who will resign rather than have it.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      Oh, so how come six hundred people died of it over the last day?

      • Fred H
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 9:14 am | Permalink

        of it, or with it?
        the Control Machine will not separate.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 11:58 am | Permalink

        Where did you get your figure of 600 people died of covid over the last day Martin? Wasn’t it with it along with other conditions they were in the hospital for with many acquiring the CV19 in hospital (25% I read)

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

        “With it”, Martin, not “of it”. The average age of death of covid19 victims is the same as for the general population, so clearly the general population’s ability to create immunity for itself – without a vaccine – is overwhelming.

      • Edward2
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

        Meanwhile in Sweden….

  38. Iain Gill
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    John,

    The other thing I notice the last few days is the whole public attitude to fireworks. I think there would be massive public support for banning firework sales to individuals now. Allow them for trained, organised, insured public displays, but not mass sale to individuals.

    Rather like banning smoking in pubs it would be an easy win, and stop a lot of injuries every year.

    I am not one for nanny state, as you know, but this one seems obvious to me.

  39. Pat
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Good morning Sir John,

    Unfortunately the answer to your question is an emphatic ‘no’.

    This is because intensive factory farming in covid susceptible animals as well as the notorious ‘wet markets’ provide ideal conditions for a covid reservoir in animal populations, where the virus can mutate and re-emerge to infect the human population, as it becomes resistant to vaccines.

    These facilities must be closed immediately worldwide, as we have already seen with the Danish mink farms. The effort and cost required to do this is miniscule compared to the economic impact of Covid 19, or indeed of the billions spent developing vaccines.
    It does however require international cooperation.

    May I suggest this requires most urgent political attention?

    Details can be found in this article from yesterday’s Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/should-concerned-mink-virus-not-reasons-think/

  40. Planner
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    I am puzzled by your introductory sentence. Is it your opinion that the results of the US election have any relevance on the announcement of this vaccine and, if so, what is the relevance?

    • rose
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

      The relevance is that Big Pharma, like Big Media, Big Money, and Big Tech, were not keen for Trump to win. An announcement while people were still deciding might have tipped voters towards Trump and away from the doom and gloom, hide-in-your-basement camp.

  41. Nigl
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    An interesting side and a good message to those demanding state funding if everything. This was developed with private (risk) capital. Public money comes with too many strings, endless reporting, meetings, political interference etc.

    Nothing new to people with real world business experience.

    Now where are those alleged grants for green home improvements? Just BS from the look of it.

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

      Nop. Funded by the EU. 500 million, so the 750million Boris gave them showed a 33% ‘profit’.

  42. Pat
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    As a follow up to my comment on the need to close factory farms and wet markets.

    This issue should be raised most urgently by the WHO.

  43. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    If it passes all of the normal checks and balances, from all of the normal organisations which approve/licence such vaccines, then yes I will take it.

  44. fedupsoutherner
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Not fascinating John, just well timed politically. Personally I would rather wait until this vaccine has been around a while. I’m not planning on travelling anywhere outside of the UK until next October so I will carry on with my life as it is. Fortunately living in a rural area life hasn’t really changed that much. I still walk my dog everyday and get to see people that way. I still go supermarket shopping where I find I can buy most things so I’m waiting even though I am over 60. If, as many Professors are saying, more people have natural immunity now the risk must be going down. Let’s see what, if any, long term effects there are first.

  45. Stephen J
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Many people seem to confuse the purported effectiveness of vaccines with the genuine effectiveness of a clean water and waste water management system.

    What made the twentieth century so much safer than the 19th, was not vaccination which has only eradicated one disease (smallpox), with the deeds of Mr. Bazalgette, who albeit for typical reasons (the great stink from Westminster), managed to more or less do away with some of the most egregious diseases in our social history.

  46. adenwellssmith
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Why did the bill include the NHS and for any Phama to not be liable for any deaths, maiming’s etc from the vaccination?

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

      Yes why? Yet they want to jail ‘vaccine deniers’.

      • glen cullen
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

        I’m not a vaccine denier, I’m a covid-19 pandemic isn’t the black death denier

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:32 am | Permalink

          No one is claiming that it is.

          Can you only think in infantile absolutes?

          • Fred H
            Posted November 12, 2020 at 9:12 am | Permalink

            look in a mirror.

          • glen cullen
            Posted November 12, 2020 at 10:18 am | Permalink

            You’re either sick or you’re not sick – absolute

          • NickC
            Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

            Martin, Why do you suppose that absolutes are infantile? Some things are absolutely true, and some things absolutely false. There’s nothing infantile about that.

  47. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    I’d weigh up the evidence using available facts before taking it. Probably 6-12 months in if no side effects reported then maybe. As the risks of catching recede from even these lows, treatments improve, treatment might be preferable to the cure.

    Hand it out first in night clubs as an alternative to crystal meth or whatever they take these days.

  48. Bryan Harris
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    How can anyone trust these vaccines that have been rushed through several stages, especially when we hear from various people involved that those dying after being a guinea pig are acceptable? They expect a certain number of people to die from simply taking the vaccine – How worthwhile is that?

    Count me out – I do not accept that the flu vaccines are as safe as they say, nor that they achieve anything, so I’m certainly not going to be mug enough to volunteer to have a CV vaccine.

    The authorities tell us that us that we would need multiple shots that will not guarantee anything, and that lockdown measures will be in place for 4 years + So what is the point of being vaccinated …. When the cure will be as bad, if not worse, than the problem?

    The other ares of concern are that these ‘new’ vaccines don’t just introduce a tiny amount of CV so our bodies can learn to fight it, they are designed to alter DNA — NOW that alone is a step too far.

    The government needs to go back to square one, re-evaluate, look at all ignored solutions, and come up with a real plan=-B that will not destroy what is left of our society and our way of life…!

  49. 'None of the above'.
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Good Morning Sir John.

    Thank you for posing these two questions which I am happy to answer.

    Yes I will take the vaccine and I understand from what Prof. Van Tam said yesterday that it is expected to follow the normal pattern. I would expect to be protected between 2 and 3 weeks after the second dose.
    I will trust the medical experts to establish the priorities based entirely on medical need.

  50. beresford
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    I’m 65 this year and earlier turned down the flu jab for the first time. I haven’t been bed-ridden due to disease since I was a child and suspect my immune system is doing its job. Therefore I’m reluctant to be subjected to an unproved ‘vaccine’ and suspicious about the unconditional acceptance by the Establishment media. It will be interesting to see if coercion is deployed and how they would justify it. Obviously it won’t ‘wipe out’ covid 19 or the flu jab would have wiped out flu.

  51. Rachel Chandler
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    I’ve followed the non-mainstream scientific debate from the beginning and don’t feel especially threatened by Covid 19. I’m happy to avoid mass indoor gatherings and respect others who want to stay distant and do everything I can to help those who feel vulnerable. I’m hoping a vaccine, even though I fear it won’t be very effective on those with weak immune systems – will give more people the confidence to get back to normal. However, I fear the government – and those driving the fear campaign – will continue to use the unfit for purpose PCR test to find “cases”, ie. false positives, to keep the NHS in Covid-only mode and continue denying treatment to non-Covid patients, destroying young peoples lives, our society and economy. The “cure” has long been worse than the disease. We need to get back to normal now.

    • NickC
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

      Raachel C, You are right that the cure is worse than the disease. But facts like extra non-covid19 deaths, and shortened lives for thousands, and a truly catastrophic hit to our economy (22% down H1 2020 – ONS), simply gets no traction in the MSM.

  52. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    JR: “The company will need to file details of side effects and the results of their safety tests, ”
    Quite. Let us see what transpires and it is essential that proper scrutiny of this development takes place. I’m increasingly frustrated by the lack of forensic examination or even simple curiousity of many politicians and the media into such developments. The fact that this vaccine has been developed so quickly, ‘unprecedented’ is the word often used, makes me more wary. There is so much I would want to know about the manufacture and use of any vaccine.
    I shall not be seeking to be vaccinated.

  53. overthinker
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Going Postal is 77 brigade ( retired division ) discuss.

    • glen cullen
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

      Discuss why it was called a ”brigade”

  54. Fred H
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    The very low temperature storage will present problems, and may lead to centralised delivery of the vaccine to widespread population. If care home workers and those residents who understand the elective decision to have it are to be first, then only a percentage should be given -adverse reaction a couple of months later would be disastrous.
    Similarly other health workers who meet face to face patients would be a good choice. Reducing transmisson in these places would have an early benefit to cutting off the spread.
    If volunteers are require ask bar-staff and restaurant workers!
    Widening the availability of all age testing could be via inviting prisoners who have more than 5 year sentences to swap the vaccine for 6 months reduction in sentence?
    Beyond that older males with partners being offered makes sense.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

      not willing to publish?

      • Fred H
        Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

        the first part Sir John, the first part!

  55. David L
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    The newspaper and BBC headlines imply that our troubles are all over, a miracle has occurred and we can return to our usual, often unhealthy lifestyles next Spring. And many people will assume that we can start dispensing with the sensible precautions immediately, just watch! Other posters have raised entirely reasonable caveats, but I fear that too many of the public have “drunk from the Well of Insanity” (as I saw written on another site) and will believe anything that suits their selfish attitudes.

  56. Lynn Atkinson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    It is important that the Government and its scientists demonstrate their confidence in the vaccine by having it first. Preferably recorded in TV. I will never have any medication that I do not need, so whatever the threat from the blob I will refuse the vaccine. If that means I am refused access to the NHS it would be welcome news.

  57. IGNORE THEM
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    The vaccine will be taken over my dead body.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

      a trifle late by then?

  58. IanT
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    I don’t think we would rush to take it, although it seems likely we would be near the head of the queue on the published criteria.

    Why not vaccinate the young and healthy, for whom the risks are low and deny the virus a breeding ground. Also vaccinate health and care workers – thereby stopping the virus from being carried into hospitals and care homes. We are locked down and have been since March, we will stay that way for the moment too.

  59. IGNORE THEM
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    The EU decided you were all going to be vaccinated Sept 2019

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:35 am | Permalink

      So who at the European Union decided this?

      Which majorities, of its supreme authority, the Council of its twenty-seven national leaders and of its Parliament?

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

        Martin, You clearly don’t know how the EU operates.

  60. agricola
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Frankly I am more concerned with the behaviour of the HoLs at the moment. I realise we have more than enough problems, Covid19, Brexit, and the BBC, however the HoL is such an anachronism that it cannot be allowed to continue in it’s present form. My view is that it should be a Senate , titles being irrelevant. One hundred people drawn from the great and the good, unelected because one house of sqabbling politicians is enough. All with a tenure of ten years maximum and drawn from those who have been successful in their careers across the whole spectrum of endeavour minus politicians. Please put an end to this charade.

  61. Everhopeful
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    The way in which they intend to roll out the vaccine is how globalists want healthcare to work.
    Apparently we can no longer afford a hospital-centric healthcare and treatment will be prioritised along similar lines to the Covid vac.
    And money will not help to jump the queue.
    Unless you are one of the 1%.
    And I imagine every MP knows this.

  62. agricola
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    It is also long overdue that we all knew exactly where we are with this Brexit negotiation. I have grown tired of ultimatums and totally conflicting speculative reporting in the press. What is agreed, what is not, and what are the sticking points. Are they capable of resolution without conflicting with our sovereignty or is it time to say enough is enough. Industry in all it’s senses deserves an answer.

  63. Christine
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    A couple I know are on the trial and they aren’t young.

  64. A.Sedgwick
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Sceptical about timing and suggested rollout is simplistic.

    All workers who have contact with public should head queue.

    Are not the most vulnerable most at risk from as yet unknown side effects?

    Should the young vulnerable not have priority over the aged?

  65. glen cullen
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    It would be interesting, for comparison, to read a peer review of the Russian vaccine which is also suppose to be 90% effective used throughout Russian and the Chinese vaccine which is being used throughout China and South America

    I thought we pay £21.9m to WHO to coordinate the global effort – they all seem to be competing against each other

  66. villaking
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    You make an important point. When will the government’s advisers allow Johnson to allow us to live freely again? The choice of words is deliberate. Johnson only seems to do what a small group of scientists tell him and they are focused on nothing but total eradication of the virus. I hope you will keep up pressure for full freedom to be restored, life as it was before March.
    To answer your other question, I would not take a hastily rushed out vaccine. If I get it, like most others I have a good chance of mild or no symptoms and my own “reasonable worst case” is a couple of weeks feeling rotten at home. The chances of me dying are miniscule. I see no point in risking a vaccine.

  67. Mike Wilson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I am 68. I don’t usually bother with the flu jab. This year my local surgery wrote to me telling me that if I didn’t have the flu jab, I might not be given the Covid vaccine when it appears. Hmmm. Weird eh? So, I had the flu jab last week – just in case what they wrote is true and we end up with a little bit of paper that says ‘I’ve had the vaccine’ – without which you won’t be allowed to travel, visit people etc.

    I realise there are public health issues at stake but it all feels a bit big brotherish to me.

  68. James Bertram
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    ‘They have been reluctant to offer us a Plan B, so the least they can do is to tell us what are the timings and trigger points for declaring success on the vaccine route.’

    Good plan, Sir John. Keep challenging them. Give them enough rope… Unlikely to be before September 2021 at the earliest for mass vaccine availability.

    The pandemic was over this summer, with the Gompertz curve falling to about 10 deaths per day in July – September (a similar death rate to that that has been reported in Sweden for the last few months). This ‘second wave’ is most likely the result of mis-reporting other respiratory illnesses as Covid-19. The overall death rate for respiratory illnesses is no different from any other year.

    And so who needs a vaccine, with the virus largely over, and 99.5% of people coping perfectly adequately with the God-given ‘vaccine’ – the human immune system? Instead, resources should be spent on treatments that help the seriously ill to recover – such as interferon beta https://bgr.com/2020/07/20/coronavirus-treatment-interferon-beta-nebulizer/
    Otherwise, we should learn to live with a virus that has become less lethal than influenza, and which most people under 70 are very unlikely to have severe problems with.

    Do not allow this government to continue their fraud any longer, with this fictitious ‘happy-ending’ now being overtly dangled before the public like a carrot. Those of us who are not donkeys will still hold this government and its advisers to account for its crimes against humanity – the unnecessary cancer deaths, the imprisonment of the elderly, the negligent deaths in care homes, the destruction of the economy, the mass suffering, suicides, and damage to mental health.

    And for what? Just so someone can make money on a vaccine? So they can bring about a Great Reset? To scrap democracy and control the people?
    Pure Evil.

  69. Iain Gill
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Dido Harding has got to go!

  70. Jo Dominich
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    Interesting thoughts. I for one will not be taking it. The flu vaccine is only 10% effective in this country. This vaccine’s purpose as I understand it is that it changes your immune system. There is nothing more powerful on earth than the Human body’s natural immune system. This drug is about certain individuals making billions of dollars/pounds no more no less. If the Government want to roll this vaccine out it has to be by consent not enforced.

  71. Peter from Leeds
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    We need to get education back up to 100% efficiency – so somewhere on the list should be staff (not just teachers) working in education who are over 50 or vulnerable.

    We should not forget other medicines in this focus on vaccines. There is some promising research on a nasal spray which gives 24 hour 100% protection from the virus getting in. It is cheap and does not require a refrigerator. This would be quicker and easier and mean we can do without masks. Fingers crossed!

  72. Lifelogic
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    BRITAIN needs to accept it is no longer a first-rate global power, former prime minister Sir John Major has declared.

    Well certainly Sir John your did your your very best to bring this about.

    He also claimed that the result of Brexit trade talks will be ‘a flimsy, barebones deal or no deal at all’, which he described as a ‘wretched betrayal of what our electors were led to believe’.

    The wretched betrayal of what the electors were led to believe began with Ted Heath and continued under Wilson, Calaghan, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May and perhaps even under Johnson we shall see. The electors were promised no loss of sovereignty, endless promises of referendums and that Cameron would stay on and serve the notice to leave the day after the referendum.

    Major really should crawl back under his stone unless that is he wants finally to appologise for the economic devestation caused by his idiotic and predictable ERM fiasco and the EURO project.

    I see that the Lords are still even now betraying the country. Did any of those who Boris recently elevated do so?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

      John Major’s double Scottish referendum plan is as idiotic as was his ERM plan. And for similar very obvious reasons. As Michael Forsyth puts it –

      “Appeasing the separatists is a disastrous policy and can only strengthen their cause.”

      Just as the ERM became a can’t lose bet for Soros and millions of others.

      I do think all PMs should have at least be bright enough to get A*’s in Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry and Physics at A level and capable of understanding a bit of Hayek (or at least be forced to run things past someone who has) before they waste billions, destroy the economy or kill thousands.

      Someone honest, independent and bright like Dick Feynman. He and many others would spot such basic and obvious errors of logic within a few seconds.

    • NickC
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic, Like many another Remain, John Major keeps trying to rewrite our Leave mandate into continued alignment with the EU. Even David Cameron’s “Remain” option involved no longer being subject to ever closer union. So what Major thinks of as “Leave” is actually closer to the “Remain” option on the ballot paper.

  73. John Whitehead
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    The need to store the vaccine at -70c must create serious logistical challenges over its distribution. How many GP surgeries and how many care homes have freezers that store at -70c? I suspect none have. How many vehicles can maintain a -70c transportation environment? So a whole new industry of building and supplying specialist freezers And specialist refrigeration vehicles will be needed – no doubt bought from overseas to save money. How many of the vaccines bought by the government will be spoilt before use due to this low temperature storage requirement.

  74. TooleyStu
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    SJR,

    Will I take the vaccine?
    No.
    Not today, tomorrow.. or next week.. or ever.
    Why, you may ask?

    Just follow the info from Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
    Do your own research, make your own decisions.

    You have more chance of being ‘handcuffed to a ghost’ than getting a needle near me.

    Best regards, as always.
    Tooley Stu

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      And you call others “snowflakes”…

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

        Only in response to being called thick by Remains, Martin. You give it out, but you can’t take it.

  75. Norman
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    I grew up in a country whose culture was based on a framework of godly values, and where, despite its imperfections, one felt one could TRUST its institutions. Oh, happy days, now gone! Although the case for a vaccine will doubtless be made very cogently, the level of ideological corruption across the world is now such, I no longer trust those institutions. I will personally judge everything on its merits. This sounds so extreme, but recent events bear this out on every hand. So I happily sing the old hymn to myself this morning: ‘On Christ the solid Rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand’; and remember the rhetorical question: ‘Shall the Son of Man find faith in the earth, when he comes?’

  76. Barbara
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    I can do no better than to quote from an article today on another website:

    ‘The history books are peppered with tales of medical science dishing out untested vaccines with nasty consequences within living memory, so anyone with their head screwed on would be understandably suspicious.‘

    It took decades for successful vaccines like the smallpox vaccine to reach a point where it was deemed safe. Other vaccines also took many, many years to develop and test. So no, I shall not be rushing to be jabbed with a hastily-produced vaccine for a disease whose survival rate is, even among the most at risk (oldest with comorbities) 96.4%.

    There is a reason why mass medication of the public is against the Geneva Convention.

  77. SecretPeople
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    At very least, the new vaccine should only be administered to people with their explicit consent and they shouldn’t be coerced into receiving it. There are precedents in everyday life whereby being able to give consent entails fully understanding what is about to happen – and this should mean that potential recipients have no comeback should the vaccine cause them harm.

    • SecretPeople
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

      edit my last comment
      “and this should mean that potential recipients have no comeback should the vaccine cause them harm”
      should read
      “and this should mean that potential recipients should be made fully aware that they have no comeback should the vaccine cause them harm”

  78. Dennis
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    No one has mentioned temperature. I heard today that the vaccine must be kept at -40C (did I hear right) or -40F if you prefer until a short time before actual vaccination in GP’s fridges I suppose. How long before it deteriorates at fridge temperatures? I’d be worried that my dose has been too warm for too long.

  79. Julian
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    The announcement after the US election is obviously timed deliberately as Donald Trump would possibly have won if it was done before. At least the House & Senate have not gone heavily blue.
    I would take the vaccine now if offered – I’d be a bit apprehensive but would still do it.

  80. Elli Ron
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Difficult to say, the technical obstacles seem very high; you have to keep the vaccine at under -80C, roughly the triple point of Nitrogen, this is a cryogenic temperature you can’t do this with a freezer (reaches -20C).
    There are other handling restrictions, but it will need thousands of specialty units for hospitals and doctor’s surgeries, special training to handle cryogenic equipment, maintenance – it’s a nightmare.
    I’m a scientist with some experience with cryogenics this will be very difficult.

  81. Lexi Dick
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    I won’t be rushing to take it. I’m not anti-vaccine (I’ve recently had the flu jab) but I don’t trust a vaccine that has been rushed through the system for political rather than health reasons.

    In any case, Covid presents a very tiny threat to most of us. It’s a puny virus with a massive PR machine, bigged up out of all proportion for reasons one can only speculate about. Some people are going to make a lot of money out of this.

  82. lojolondon
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    If we trust the lengthy reports that HCQ is 80% effective, costs pennies and is freely available, one has to question spending billions to develop plus billions to supply a “vaccine” that is only 90% effective, will be in short supply, etc….

    I am also deeply suspicious of the timing of this announcement – is this really a sudden development, or was the announcement delayed in order to weaken President Trump’s attempt to win the US election??

  83. James Bertram
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    ‘It is fascinating that a possible vaccine is announced as producing good test results shortly after the US election.’

    Reported on Lockdown Sceptics today (by Toby Young):
    Barry Norris of Argonaut Capital Partners – an expert on the biotech sector – told Lockdown Sceptics:
    As we had expected, the Pfizer/BioNTech trial delivered a positive efficacy result.
    There were two surprising elements: The timing of the announcement and the claim of 90% efficacy.
    There are 44,000 people in the trial with half in the placebo. They were supposed to read out after just 32 cases in total. It was thought that the trial hadn’t yet read out because they hadn’t yet had enough infections. The trial actually read out after 94 cases, so they delayed it on purpose apparently as a result of “discussions with the FDA”. This smells like they didn’t want to announce it pre-Presidential election in case the ‘good news’ helped the incumbent. Trump must be fuming….’

  84. Ross Towes
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    I would happily take the vaccine. Distributing it to the most vulnerable is clearly the most sensible plan. I don’t see why all restrictions should not be lifted once everyone over 65 (personally I would settle for a research-backed percentage of this group, whatever that was) or with conditions making them particularly vulnerable have been vaccinated. The risk to everyone else is negligible.

  85. Jamie
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Asshole always thinking about yourself first..if offered a vaccine by these great scienntists doctors..i James will be first in line..asshole

  86. L Jones
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    A vaccine. For a virus that is not dangerous in the least for 99.6 per cent of people.
    Madness.
    No doubt the government will find a way of manipulating people into taking it, and dressing it up as some sort of ”health passport” for the good of the population of a whole. Wasn’t there a law against this sort of coercion after the second German war?

  87. NickC
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    JR, I will not take the covid19 vaccine.

    I have had other vaccines, and expect to continue to do so. But no vaccine developed this fast can be guaranteed to be reasonably safe. And indeed both the manufacturers (Pfizer? Astra Zeneca?) and the suppliers (the NHS) have legal immunity, which hardly instils confidence.

    In any case I have had covid19 (in May). My test was negative, but clinically I had the covid19 characteristic symptoms – and there were no other respiratory disease epidemics at the time, similar or otherwise. Moreover, a senior hospital pharmacist pointed out that about 30% of the covid19 tests were false negatives.

    The DT reports “It should be made a criminal offence to spread anti-vaxx myths and the public should report offenders, the Royal Society and British Academy have said”. Well good luck with that. The twerps have just confirmed what the anti-vaxxers say.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      The High Court have already ruled – to Johnson’s benefit – that it is not Misconduct In Office for a position holder to lie to the public.

      So – if true, mind – we’d have the strange position where it was legal to tell almost any lie that you like apart from about the vaccine, which would be a statutory offence.

      This excuse for a country gets ever more surreal.

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

        Martin, The High Court ruled no such thing.

      • Edward2
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        Nonsense.
        A Court cannot involve itself in statements by politicians.
        It is for voters at elections to decide and throw out a government if they want to.
        And more importantly it is the job of opposition politicians and the media to examine what they say.
        Nothing to do with courts.

    • The Hammer Codename
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      “It should be made a criminal offence to spread anti-vaxx myths and the public should report offenders, the Royal Society and British Academy have said”

      ….
      what if those ‘myths’ are backed up with science papers?

  88. Suzyv
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    No I will not be having a vaccine. We were given an immune system and for good reason. If it’s struggling, there’s plenty of help available (in nature rather than toxic chemicals). Before I have a vaccine I would find out precisely what is in it and ask if both efficacy and long term safety can be guaranteed (the answer will be no). Why is a vaccine necessary for something that is not harmful for over 99% of people and then mainly for those already very sick (who can be shielded and supported if they still want this). We all know about the billions of $s being made in manufacture and the amount paid to GP’s. Many of us are not that stupid and naive.

    Regarding order of doses, so long as it administered with informed prior consent and in no way coerced upon anyone (which is illegal), I have no strong opinions. And this includes the informed consent of the elderly in nursing homes- so if necessary prior consent from their Attorneys. A huge amount of people are very against this vaccine due to lack of long term safety studies (which takes years) including quite a few GP’s who won’t have it themselves so I expect there will be plenty to go around.

    This crisis should end right now because it all based upon inaccurate (and possibly fraudulent) data. Viruses do not have second waves, at most a slight small hump due to suppression from hiding in the Spring. It’s contended that quite a few of the test results are false positives upon which this is based and Dominic Raab stated it was over 90% in an interview a little while back. The accurate number of actual true infections is not known. Regardless of cases, the deaths for respiratory related illnesses at this time of year is about the same as it always is (possibly slightly lower in fact). More people are dying and being harmed from restrictive measures and lockdowns than from a respiratory virus. Yet the Government continues to pursue this path knowingly causing such harm. Where is the risk assessment? Is there one? Has there been full and honest disclosure of all data to all in Parliament? The Public’s eyes are now much more open (and consequently many are simply carrying on as normal right now) and lets hope there will be an honest enquiry and that there will be some justice for these (non virus) deaths and harm.

  89. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    In his speech to the UN General Aassembly on 24 September 2019 Boris johnson said:
    “Will nanotechnology help us to beat disease, or will it leave tiny robots to replicate in the crevices of our cells?…..I am profoundly optimistic about the ability of new technology to serve as a liberator and remake the world wondrously and benignly, indeed in countless respects technology is already doing just that. Today, nanotechnology – as I mentioned earlier – is revolutionising medicine by designing robots a fraction of the size of a red blood cell, capable of swimming through our bodies, dispensing medicine and attacking malignant cells like some Star Wars armada”
    Does this new vaccine contain such nanotechnology? We have the right to know. If so, what are the implications of having such “robots swimming through our bodies”? How safe are they? Will they be capable of altering our minds and bodies in ways we may not wish?

  90. a-tracy
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Q “How willing would you be to take such a vaccine if approved soon? ”

    How on earth can any of us possibly make a decision on filling our bodies with a vaccine without facts and with the cover-up that has gone on for months by the pharmacy company executives. Trump said a vaccine was nearly ready he was vilified for it. This campaign was relentless, saying the vaccine couldn’t be trusted and wouldn’t be tested properly but now Biden is in charge everything is going to be sunny uplands you can trust us, the virus will disappear by Spring just like in China, the same scientists who were telling us the exact opposite a few weeks ago. This community has caused this lack of trust with a lack of transparency.

    I don’t say this as an anti-vaxer either. I was cross when the TB vaccine wasn’t available for my two youngest children, the eldest got it. None of us has ever missed a vaccine program. But I don’t TRUST what is going on right now!

  91. DennisA
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    I believe that a placebo would have a similar impact as any vaccine, because of the innate fear that has been generated by the government and its science advisers and I call them that advisedly.

    I would not be rushing to the front of the queue. Not taking a flu vaccine has kept me free from flu for many years…

    • The Hammer Codename
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      I am 50, never had any vaccine, never had any bad virus.

  92. Mike Cowburn
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    In order to generate confidence in the vaccines safety, would all members of both Houses of Parliament be willing to be the first in line to receive the vaccine? That would be a good acid test for me.

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

      Why Mike what makes you think they’d give them what the rest of the population are given if they were up to no good? That is no acid test at all.

  93. glen cullen
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Interesting commons debate today ‘’Parliamentary Constituencies Bill’’

    All the debate is about maintaining the number of MPs and moving the boundary lines instead

    Not one MP is saying lets maintain our historic boundaries and increase or decease the number of MPs therein according to number from census

  94. Paul Cuthbertson
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Keep well away from this vaccine and for that matter all vaccines.

    • Simon Coleman
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:45 am | Permalink

      Yes, I don’t know why there’s any debate. If people want the vaccine – that’s absolutely fine. Those who would rather rely on their immune systems that they were given by nature, should also just be allowed to make their choice and have it respected. And that ought to be the end of the matter. Covid mortality rate is very close to that for flu – nothing special.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

      Great advice – welcome to the world of:
      Diphtheria: introduced 1940.
      Pertussis: 1950s.
      BCG: 1953.
      Polio: 1955.
      Tetanus: 1961.
      Measles: 1968.
      Rubella: 1970.
      MMR: 1988.
      Meningitis C (MenC): 1999.
      Pneumococcus: 2006.
      Human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccination: 2008 (with catch-up programmes for girls up to the age of 18 years who missed it).
      Rotavirus: 2013.
      Shingles: 2013 (with a catch-up programme for adults aged 71-80).
      Children’s annual flu vaccine: 2013.
      Meningitis B and meningitis ACWY: 2015 (with catch-up for students up to the age of 25 for MenACWY).
      DTaP/IPV(polio)/Hib/HepB: 2018.

      You probably have no knowledge of the diseases?
      Funny that, perhaps the vaccine virtually eradicated them?

  95. William Long
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    I am sure that an effective vaccine would offer a real way out. The question now though, is does the vaccine we heard about yesterday offer a way out, and the only answer we have at the moment is hope but no certainty. This one may prove safe as well as effective, but there are plenty of other candidates including the Oxford one and we need to know more about them.
    There is great tension between the need for safety and the politicians’ hope that they are the ones who provide the solution and in this case I would listen to the medics rather than the politicians, but given regulatory approval I would certainly take the vaccine if only because I think that may well be the the only way of being allowed to lead a normal life by the control freaks now in charge of us.

    • Simon Coleman
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:39 am | Permalink

      ‘The control freaks now in charge of us’ are the people who are desperate for us to take the vaccine. Surely that ought to set an alarm bell ringing…somewhere?

  96. rose
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    I think this news was held back until the fraudsters thought they had their feet safely under the table.

    I should like to know how many nonegenarians, octogenarians, and septuagenarians were used in the safety trials. A younger person might react quite differently from an older person.

    It sounds as if asking questions like this in public might be made a criminal offence.

  97. Mary M.
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Our immune system which has evolved over thousands of years may still be the best bet.

    Professor David Livermore, Professor of Medical Microbiology at the University of East Anglia comments on findings at the Statens Serum Institut Denmark re. the mutated varient of Covid-19 now in mink farms in Denmark.

    Professor Livermore: ‘Most vaccines being developed are targeted at only the Spike protein, so if that Spike protein mutates, the vaccine is ineffective . . .

    ‘The response [that of the immune system] to natural COVID-19 infection, including the more persistent T-cell response, on the other hand, is not purely directed against the Spike protein but also gives reactivity against other components . . .

    ‘A weaker broad-based response from natural infection may be more protective than a strong response [a vaccine] specifically to the Spike protein if virus with an altered Spike enters wide circulation . . .

    ‘These findings make a further salutary point against the notion that a vaccine is going reliably to rescue us all and that we should wait, taking the massive collateral damage of repeated lockdowns, until one does. It is wiser to accept that we must face the long adaption to ‘living with this virus’, hoping that vaccines will give a boost to naturally acquired immunity, but not counting on them.’

    (For the full article, go to his guest post in Lockdown Sceptics, November 8th.)

  98. oldwulf
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    As a moderately elderly white male, in reasonable physical condition, I would not wish to be at the front of the queue for a vaccine.

    I would be more comfortable with a drug related, inhaler type treatment which I believe is near to production. Maybe this type of solution could reach the population more quickly than a vaccine so as to enable the Government to relax the controls sooner.

  99. bill brown
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    It is good to see that the HOuses of Lords has thrown out the INternal Market Bill as it stands for the moment.

    This makes a lot of sense as it cound pontetially break our international treaty obligations.

    Hoefully, it will not be necessary to go before Parliement again at the end of November?

    • Edward2
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

      I don’t want to depress you bill but the vote by the House of Lords is meaningless in Parliamentary terms.
      The Commons will vote it through again.

      • bill brown
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

        Lynn Atkinson

        the one’s of us who dual citizenship do but I do know you know very little about the world outside the island. “Half of South Africa has AIDS”) do you remember that remark

      • bill brown
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

        Edward 2
        YOu are know guessing but as usual you do not really know. I was hoping not guessing

        • Edward2
          Posted November 12, 2020 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

          I’m not guessing bill.
          I know how the constitution works.
          The Commons will pass this legislation.
          Wait and see.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

      Quite, Bill.

      I notice that when we mention the ruinous effect of brexit on the lives of the talented young and their understandable resentment, we get the stock reply that “wisdom comes with age”.

      They always make an exception for the eminent grey in the House Of Lords though.

      How does that work, I wonder…oh, it doesn’t need to work for some folk.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

        It works on the same principal Martin that you and Andy bleat on about old uneducated Brexit leave voters dying off.

      • NickC
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

        Martin, If the talented young are as talented as you say they won’t need a helping hand from a sclerotic corrupt bureaucracy like the EU.

    • steve
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

      @bill brown

      So, you think NI should be sold out, yeah ?

      “This makes a lot of sense”

      If you were Sin Fein it would.

      “the HOuses of Lords”

      …..They’re not real Lords anymore. They only wear ermine and call themselves Lords because Tony said they could.

      • bill brown
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

        Steve

        the answer to you question is NO I was talking about an aspirtion so the government does not have to ask for a another vote on a bill which breaks an international treaty, according to most people including the Minister for NO

    • Lynn Atkinson
      Posted November 10, 2020 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

      Of course it will go through the House probably next week. You Continentals have no idea how the U.K. operates.

      • bill brown
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

        Lynn Atkinson

        Coming form you that is a steep one to a fellow Brit

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      It looks like pure treachery by many in the Lords to me. Undermining the UK’s Brexit negotiations to ensure a worse deal for the UK.

      • bill brown
        Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

        Lifelogic

        The negotiations are still going on, so you actually have no idea but you are still making these big conclusions up front

  100. XYXY
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Not willing to take it until any long-term side effects are fully understood. I could end up with a serious health issue. When the vaccine is available it shouldn’t be compulsory, those who have doubts should be able to continue to take precautions.

    Also, as JR says, the period of immunity is unknown. If it’s anything like the flu jab it doesn’t last long and they may even inoculate for the wrong strain of flu, as they do fairly regularly wince they have to guess which strain will be coming our way each year.

  101. Utter Tyranny
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    “inject hope into millions of arms”

  102. Margaret brandreth-j
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    It is quite a scary thought. I was involved in drug trials in Manchester and even with a base knowledge , the risk was great . Students were volunteers mainly who got paid and they were young and healthy. I suppose many will say let others try it first . We think of the scare about the MMR vaccine and autism , thalidomide comes to mind and the side effects of most drugs can be severe . It is a leap into the dark , but I suppose everything new is.
    Talking about a leap into the dark, more black hole evidence is appearing and the Big Bang theory itself is being disputed .

  103. hefner
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    In addition to my baby/infant compulsory vaccinations, I had to have vaccines against various encephalitis, hepatitis, rabies, cholera and yellow fever, plus proguanil/doxycycline malarial medication when travelling at different stages of my life. I could not say these injections were always without side effects but at least I did not catch anything nasty.

    So as soon as my age group (group 4 if before end of year, 3 if after) is entitled to a Covid-19 vaccine, I’ll go for it, specially if it is the BioNTech-Pfizer one or the CureVac one, the ones developed by companies that refused Trump’s money for exclusive US access (Guardian, 15/03/2020, Trump offers large sums of money for exclusive US access to coronavirus access).

    PotUS Trump was such a nice guy, wasn’t he.

  104. IGNORE THEM
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    “But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.” – Winston Churchill

  105. Dee
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Your all wrong. The best way to get rid of the virus is to get rid of SAGE. As far as I am concerned, they can put their vaccine where the sun doesn’t shine.

  106. rb
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    And it was endorsed by Anthony Fauci

  107. James Bertram
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    My earlier post not here yet, but ended on the phrase ‘Pure evil’.
    Have just read this comment on Lockdown sceptics – someone with the same opinion as myself? :

    “… https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/light-end-tunnel-must-lead-us-back-hope/

    I could hug Alison Pearson.

    One para has horrifying (quotable) figures:

    You know, I’m not sure that our Covid-obsessed Government has begun to appreciate the fearful harm its measures have wrought. According to one expert, lockdown will end up costing the equivalent of 560,000 lives because of the health impact of the “deep and prolonged recession” which is about to hit us. Prof Philip Thomas of Bristol University says the toll will exceed that of the UK’s military and civilian losses in the Second World War. If lockdown was once a necessary evil, it is no longer necessary, just evil….”

  108. Zerren Yeoville
    Posted November 10, 2020 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    One does not have to be a tinfoil-hatted mad anti-vaxxer in order to be wary of the long-term safety of a brand new vaccine made and tested in a hurry. I imagine many people who wouldn’t think twice about renewing their standard tetanus, polio or hepatitis jabs will nevertheless want to wait and see how things pan out when it has been in widespread use for several months or so.

    (There is a short-story – ‘Pallbearer’ by Robert Reed – which is set in a post-apocalyptic future in which it gradually becomes clear that the ultimate disaster was caused, not by the outbreak of a dangerous global pandemic, but by the horrific – but slow to emerge – side-effects of the vaccine that was hurriedly thrown together in response.)

  109. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    The Pfizer vaccine is known to be safe and is thought to be effective, so why not just roll it out now. I would have thought it is the height of stupidity to offer it first to the old and the vulnerable, who are likely to die from one disease or another in the not too distant future. Just for once, Mr Central Government, put the economy first and vaccinate those between 30 and 50 as a priority.

  110. Alpipp
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Dear Sir John, I won’t have the jab as I am in a not at risk group and live with my young adult children who for work reasons have been mixing with lots of other people and using public transport. I work in a cafe. So I will have been exposed to the virus at some point.

    Also, the COVID jab should be deployed as per the flu jab – at risk groups, elderly and key health workers. However given it is a RNA vaccine, women under 50 shouldn’t be vaccinated.

    Thank you

  111. Alpipp
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Dear Sir John, I have a new idea for selecting the samples for the vaccibe.

    All members of SAGE, Professor Whitty, Vallance and all MPs that voted for the second lockdown should have the new vaccine. Then we the Public wait a month and see how many have been disabled it died.

    Please suggest this next time you visit the Commons.

    Kind regards

  112. Margaret Brandreth-
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    One of the very first things a Nurse learns is how to inject vaccines and medications.There are a few different methods of administration It is a basic skill , which many other professions don’t seem to grasp yet . We used devices and oranges as practice. An important part of administration is knowledge of the product , storage of the product and what to do in case of a bad reaction to the product. These are the aspects of Nursing for as long as I can remember.

    The Nurse analyses her methods and outcomes and much research is done on the subject as evidenced in the many Nursing Journals.

    Of course giving a vaccine is simple . Anyone can do it . The response will be the important factor and we need highly qualified and intelligent staff such as the Nurse to ensure the programme is carried out safely .

  113. Frances Truscott
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    They need to decide a case level below which lifting lockdown is acceptable. Not all areas will need full vaccine coverage to achieve this.

  114. Bryan Harris
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Perhaps – at some future time, when you find my deleted posts were accurate, you will reinstate them…

  115. matthu
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    Why does the UK focus on testing asymptomatic people when the Pfizer drug trial only tested 94 people i.e. those who reported symptoms?

  116. None of the Above
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Yes, I would have the vaccine and would expect to be protected around 2 or 3 weeks after the second dose. I know that there will be some concern about “anti-vaxers” but providing that they are in the minority, they will only themselves suffer.

  117. Qubus
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    I read in this.morning’s Daily Telegraph that GPS will be given £12.58 per vaccine injection. Do doubt this is a reward for their Sterling efforts over the last months.
    I would have thought that, given five minutes instruction, shelf-stackers in Tesco could have done the job.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 12, 2020 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

      When my better half ( I mean it) and I went for our flu jab a while ago we said to pay attention at what the stabber does and where in the upper arm.
      Maybe next year we’ll have to do each other, given the withdrawal of other services over recent years, DIY becoming the thing.

  118. Ed M
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    When I was endorsing Michael O’Leary I was endorsing his capitalism not his views on Europe.

    Also, he’s the sort of capitalist who pays his taxes back at home and does a lot to support the local economy. And he’s tough but not nasty. And he’s not a capitalist like Trump who inheritted a fortune (Trump has more a less just held on to it – nothing more). But made O’Leary made his own money, building up Ryanair from nothing into Europe’s largest airline in terms of passenger numbers.

    We need someone such as O’Leary leading our country, whilst at same time, pushing forwards traditional Graec0/Roman / Judaeo/Christian values of Patriotism and Family, and supporting The Monarchy, The Arts, The Armed Forces, Entrepreneurship (in particular in the High Tech) industry, and much more. Protecting our natural landscape and turning our towns and cities into beautiful places to live – and we could start that off by planting millions and millions of TREES!

    God bless our great country.

    • Ed M
      Posted November 11, 2020 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      Also, capitalists need to make the argument that if people want to go on holiday somewhere nice each year, be able to afford to go the dentist regularly to stop their teeth rotting etc, things like that, then it has to be paid for by money. Money doesn’t grow on trees.

      Corbyn is delusional in the sense he thinks money grows on trees. And millions like him. If we want the great services Corbyn wants, then you can only pay that through capitalism. Not capitalism at any cost, as there are people out there who will act like sharks / the mob / the mafia to make as much money as possible at other people’s expense and misery. So there has to be some regulation (but then who regulates the regulators – vicious circle).

      But capitalism isn’t enough. We have to have a stronger incentive for people to get up everyday and work hard. We want people to work hard above all just because it’s good for them. Their self respect. Their mental health. We want people to have a positive vision about Patriotism and The Family. And that when they have free time, they really enjoy it because they’re in a good mental space. Etc. So we also have to push hard for the best of Graeco/Roman and Judaeo/Christian values. And so we need to have this debate right across the board. And fighting for this in a non-violent, good-natured way. In politics. But in the media. Education. The Arts. And so on.

  119. tooley stu
    Posted November 11, 2020 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    SJR.
    Will I be taking the vaccine.
    No.

    Why do I need a 90% effective vaccine, when I have a 99.93% effective immune system.

    And why have we just spent 8 months avoiding a virus, only to them poke it in your arm.

    Best regards,
    Tooley stu

  120. Simon Coleman
    Posted November 12, 2020 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    Why would anyone trust this government with a vaccine apparently developed in 8 months, instead of the usual 8 years? After the care home scandal, the falsification of data to give terrifying death predictions, and the disgraceful lockdowns that will cause many more deaths than covid…the majority of people somehow feel that they can trust the gov’t with their long-term health. (Words left out ed) The big question next year will be – how far will the gov’t go to try to compel us to take the vaccine? Will they legislate or put pressure on employers to ensure that vaccine refusers face restrictions or penalties? One thing only can we be certain about: the gov’t has no interest at all in our health and well-being. So, no, I won’t be taking the vaccine.

  121. matthu
    Posted November 12, 2020 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Pathologist: ‘Mass testing in Liverpool shows testing we have had has failed.’
    talkRadio this morning

  122. Pauline Baxter
    Posted November 12, 2020 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Sir John.
    I am considered not just ‘vulnerable’ but extremely vulnerable.
    How willing would I be to accept a Covid vaccine? NO. NO. NO!
    Amongst other reasons, it is because other NHS approved and supposedly thoroughly tested vaccines, have done me lasting damage in the past.
    The Covid vaccine now threatened IS KNOWN not to have been thoroughly tested. Need I say more?
    Please do not let this present MAD government make the vaccine mandatory.

  123. John Partington
    Posted November 12, 2020 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    The roll out of the first vaccine should be given to the House of Lords followed by MPs. If it is OK continue with the working population followed by the elderly in care homes.

  124. Richard
    Posted November 12, 2020 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    I shall continue to take Vitamin D, Zinc & eat onions (Quercetin). I do not see any benefit from the risky vaccine.
    “The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs)” https://archive.is/2JXqO#selection-961.0-961.222

    And on the Vaccine trials:
    ““According to the protocols for their studies, which they released late last week, a vaccine could meet the companies’ benchmark for success if it lowered the risk of mild Covid-19, but was never shown to reduce moderate or severe forms of the disease, or the risk of hospitalization, admissions to the intensive care unit or death.
    To say a vaccine works should mean that most people no longer run the risk of getting seriously sick. That’s not what these trials will determine.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/opinion/covid-vaccine-coronavirus.html

  125. Stephen Glasse
    Posted November 13, 2020 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    I’m 45 years of age in good health. I am against lockdown for a virus as insignificant as covid19 where the average age of death is 82. I’m against this worship of ‘science’ exhibited by Mr Hancock that allows for restrictions on people’s lives with the hope that a vaccine will later justify such draconian measures. I’m not willing to take the vaccine as (a) a matter of principle (b) I’m not in any realistic danger from c-19 (c) it’s a new mRNA vaccine that’s only been tested for several months. I’d expect 5-10 years minimum.

  126. alastair harris
    Posted November 14, 2020 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    important to emphasise “possible”. There is no vaccine currently, and no obvious reason to suppose one will ever be available. We have never managed to come up with a vaccine for the common cold, which is a covid variant.
    What concerns me most is the involvement of governments in “short-cutting” the process. You have to wonder what inducements and “get out of jail” cards are on offer.

  127. a-tracy
    Posted November 19, 2020 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    I find all this talk of a vaccine put off now to the new year and lockdown over Xmas or you’ll kill your grandparents quite unedifying and suspicious.

    Owen Jones writes ‘going by excess deaths – one in every 887 British citizens died during a pandemic, the economy has collapsed, and we are all living under de facto house arrest.”

    Yet elsewhere it says even in this peak lockdown month we are just 7 excess deaths over normal?

    We aren’t all ‘living under house arrest’ – many of us are working outside the home unless this government have forced us to close, the roads are busy, schools, colleges and universities are full and it’s ok to kill each other working together making our daily bread but don’t visit family or you’ll kill them. Sage – intelligent spokesmen – give me a break, is the professor making all these announcements working from home since March? What figures and information has he got access to John? Don’t you want that information too?

    Boris allowed to break 2m distance rules with visitors so he gets a buy at work!! If he’d followed his own rules he could have carried on at work like the rest of us do in the real world, in hospitals, schools etc .

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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