No deal is still better than a bad deal

The EU negotiations have been made deliberately complex by the EU. Beneath all the obfuscation and deliberate efforts to dilute, delay or cancel Brexit, there is a simple disagreement. The U.K. says we will be an independent country like Australia or Canada. We offer a Free Trade Agreement which helps both, offering more to the EU as they are in huge surplus on trade.

The EU says we need to be bound into their laws and controls, and surrender our fish if we want a Free Trade Agreement. In that case the answer must be No Deal. We should not compromise our independence.

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318 Comments

  1. Ian Wragg
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 5:16 am | Permalink

    Yet another deadline. Just what is Boris playing at.
    He is being humiliated and is showing complete lack of backbone.
    There can never be an agreement in Brussels terms so end the charade now.

    • Nigl
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:35 am | Permalink

      Nonsense. No evidence whatsoever. If giving more time, whilst not crumbling, for the most important negotiations in our history, is wrong, I suggest you do not apply for the job.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

        Oh. Not really catching on at all then. Commiserations

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

        Quite, so long as nothing more is conceded we might as well keep talking.

        The EU never makes decisions before time runs out so we might as well be talking when the time runs out.

      • Longinus
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:42 am | Permalink

        Giving them more time reduces the time available for our businesses and people to adapt to the requirements of a no deal. They have had over 4 y to negotiate in good faith.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:48 am | Permalink

        There is evidence Nigl.
        The previous four years have been a waste of our time and money.

        • Wrinkle
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

          Edward2 – that’s right but who’s fault? The stupid UK negotiators – they should have said we won’t accept this waste of money and time and as JR wrote,’The EU negotiations have been made deliberately complex by the EU. Beneath all the obfuscation and deliberate efforts to dilute, delay or cancel Brexit,’ why did we accept that?

          Or did May and Olly think, ‘this is good as it gives the excuse of remaining’.

        • K Jig
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

          True!

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

        Nig1, The Brexit talks are not the most important in our history. Brexit is hugely important; the talks are not.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:52 am | Permalink

      Sir, I think you are too pessimistic. I think there can certainly be an agreement on Brussels’ terms. After all, their terms are really the same as the UK’s! But we might have to wait a little longer to hear that our friendship with the EU as has been secured. Blowers has a party management problem to resolve. But keep the faith, for the darkest hour is just before the dawn… 😉

    • matthu
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:57 am | Permalink

      I suspect uncertainty over the outcome of the US election is still a factor: big case currently in the US Supreme Court could go some way to determining the likely next president = and if it is not media and self-proclaimed President-elect Biden, then that puts additional pressure on the EU.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

        He was elected by 81 million Americans as against Trump’s 74 million.

        And all of the swing states – including Republican governors – say that this is the most secure election ever.

        Maybe the US should split into its two natural halves?

        Those in the 21st century, and those stuck in the age of the Witches Of Salem?

        The first would work wonders unburdened by the second.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

          Individual votes are not significant in America.
          Did you not know Martin?
          There is a Collegiate system.

        • matthu
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

          There is a small matter of the electoral process having to abide by the constitution… which it didn’t in the 4 states being sued by Texas and 17 other states.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

          Martin, Seven states have filed an appeal to the SCotUS that the election has been insecure. Didn’t you know?

      • Richard
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

        +1 Well spotted, I agree.
        Boris now seems to edging towards ‘no deal’. So maybe he now realises that a Biden presidency is increasingly unlikely.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      Well, good and bad are relative terms.

      So it depends what you mean by a bad deal.

      It would have to be so preposterously bad to be worse than no deal, that no one would in practice ever get near to agreeing it, though in principle it would be possible.

      So John’s headline is untrue on that basis, like most assertions of the Leave devotees.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

        Martin, No deal is the best deal because it means we’re not trapped in the EU’s cunning web. Half a century has taught us we cannot trust the EU empire since it has nothing going for it except its own power – and it is transfixed by that.

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:29 am | Permalink

      I agree. More ads on the box last night, telling business to prepare – and still they don’t know what they are preparing for. Key lesson for government: when you stipulate a deadline, stick to it.

    • ian@Barkham
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:38 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Mike Durrans
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:46 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Peter
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      Agreed. Shifting deadlines do not bode well.

      Advantage EU.

    • glen cullen
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      The first deadline to be broken was also an international recognised treaty; under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty we had only to years of negotiation to conclude any deal

      Our government and the EU concluded with each other to ignore that treaty and the desire of the people and the conditions of the referendum

      Forgotten in history

  2. Nigl
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    Agreed totally. There is no way what the EU is demanding aligns with us being an independent nation. Why should we submit to their rules and the ECJ, hardly independent, known to consider its main role as supporting ‘the project’.

    They are terrified our independence will expose them for what they are. Inward looking, inefficient and riddled with protectionism.

    Boris has the country behind him, he must stay strong.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:16 am | Permalink

      But Boris is going to cave in and he has already has over Northern Ireland.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

        What the EU is demonstrating in these negotiation is how much pointless and damaging regulation and micro control the EU has. Nearly all of it is against the interest of the people in the EU and the UK.

        Furthermore how poor, cumbersome and slow the EU structures are at negotiating anything that can then get approved by all of their 27 members.

        Cameron should just have left when he got is worthless thin gruel in Feb 2016. Indeed he should have kept his “cast iron” promised on the Lisbon treaty that was the renamed constitution that had already been rejected. Had he not ratted on this and had he put forwards a proper tax cutting, real Conservative agenda he would have won a clean majority and we would have be spared Clegg, Laws, Alexander, Swinson and the dire coalition.

        Also the party would not be stuffed full of Libdims as it still is.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:51 am | Permalink

        Good tweets from Richard Tice on the huge extent of PCR false positives in the Cambridge Student Testing results. It really is a sick joke. Most excess deaths now are clearly due to NHS shutdowns in non covid treatments and other NHS etc. failures not really Covid. False PCR positives are being used to try to hide this fact and justify lockdowns.

        • Fred H
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:17 am | Permalink

          and the false negatives in both PCR and LFT.

        • DaveK
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:37 am | Permalink

          We need the ONS to find out how many positive tests were Ct>35 and then redo the “plague” figures.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:46 am | Permalink

      You seem quite content to submit to US rules on extradition and on much more besides, especially in the field of defence, on the other hand.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:55 am | Permalink

        exactly how many terrorists have we agreed to release into US custody?

      • Wrinkle
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

        ‘….quite content to submit to US rules on extradition…’ yes, another UK blunder by so called ‘negotiators’.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

        Martin, There is no reason we cannot be independent of both the EU and the USA. You are the one who hates UK independence, not me. But if you’re right, and we really cannot be independent, then it would be much better for us to be an equal state of the USA than a colony of the EU empire.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:03 am | Permalink

      Yes, which other FTA that the EU has entered into requires the country to submit to EU rules and judgements within its own borders.

      No problem with jurisdiction over trade within the EU but they must have no say in the running of the UK.

    • None of the Above
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:35 am | Permalink

      Well Said!

    • ian@Barkham
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:38 am | Permalink

      +1

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

        Nigel,

        Read the WA and NIP. Alternatively articles by Sammi Wilson MP, Martin Howe QC etc.

        Johnson, Gove, JR and other Fake Tory MPs agreed for the U.K. to submit to ECJ, laws and regs in the WA and NIP! They sold out the nation.

        Just because Johnson makes false statements does not make it true! There is a border down the Irish Sea, EU customs officials checking goods from England to N. Ireland! Can you remember Johnson claiming the exact opposite?

        Did Germany have EU customs officials on its borders or between east and west Germany when the Berlin Wall came down? No!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:09 am | Permalink

      The ECJ is a political court comitted to the appalling EU project. We should not agree to them having any involvement at all they are totally biased to the project.

      About as impartial as the BBC is on their climate alarmist lunacy.

      • glen cullen
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:42 am | Permalink

        If just one single EU decision under ECJ is enforced on the UK, we haven’t left and we aren’t sovereign – Under the new Gove settlement in NI, the UK are still subject to ECJ rulings

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:52 am | Permalink

          Indeed.

        • Old Salt
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:21 am | Permalink

          glen
          +1

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

          Glen, Yes the capitulation has begun. It’s just they’ve decided to feed it to us in drips to reduce the protests. So Gove is the first drip. Fish will be next. Finally ECJ rule. Good bye Tory party.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:52 am | Permalink

        LL,

        Gove confirmed ECJ will applythrough WA and NIP in a host of areas whether there is a deal or not. Including how much we pay the EU and when. Do catch up. Johnson and his rotten party have sold the nation out. Instead of ripping up the WA and NiP, they have just reaffirmed to comply with it. Vassalage as Johnson calls it. We do not have a say over how much we give the EU or when!

        Why do we taxpayers owe a penny! Fake treacherous Tory govt for you. Arguably the most dishonest in history.

        I am waiting for the apology to all of us from Lynne.

    • dixie
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:40 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Peter
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

      ‘There is no way what the EU is demanding aligns with us being an independent nation.’

      As pointed out in The Spectator, the term ‘Level Playing Field’ indicates the EU failure to recognise an independent sovereign nation. Sovereign nations are not constrained by level playing fields.

      In a different article in The Spectator by James Forsyth – Mr. Allegra Stratton (the Downing Street Press Officer) – it is suggested that possibly neither side will back down and after WTO talks will still continue. Macron would be happy and believes the new realities will soften up the U.K. who will be more receptive to a deal on EU terms. Both Boris and Macron will be happy as they have not backed down.

      You have to decide whether this is press spin for public consumption, or inside information.

  3. Peter Wood
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    Good Morning,

    We need to know two things:

    1. Is the PM going to stand up for an independent, self-governing United Kingdom, as he has promised many times,

    and

    2. Are we ready to leave and trade with the EU on WTO terms?

    Leave the theatrics in Belgium, we’ve got more important fish to fry…

    • Anthony Pollock
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:10 am | Permalink

      Well said and you are right about the fish!!

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        So let’s get this right.

        You want the UK to deny access to its fishing grounds, to the very parties to whom it sold those rights for its own gain?

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

          So let’s get this right
          You want the UK to be the only country in the world that doesn’t control it’s own territorial waters.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

          Martin, The EU fishermen that you sob about paid the EU to fish in our waters, not us. But the EU is only the temporary owners of the fishing rights – whilst the UK remains in. Now that we are about to depart (if we depart!), it results in a change of ownership. Maybe we will rent out some rights to some EU fishermen like the EU did, maybe not.

    • Wil Pretty
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:40 am | Permalink

      If Boris negotiates away our Sovereignty for a few beans, i will not be happy.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:59 am | Permalink

        Johnson already has. He has effectively given away N.Ireland away.

        N.Ireland stays in the EU single market and customs union, all EU regs and laws apply, border down Irish Sea that two Fake Tory PMs said no PM would ever countenance, EU customs officials on our own lands checking goods travelling across our own nation! If the U.K. Fails in any way it gets punished!

        What part of vassalage do you not understand? This is a national betrayal by the Fake Tory Govt, announced by Gove in parliament two days ago! And the Fake Tory MPs did nothing, absolutely nothing.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

          Hope, It is indeed disgusting. They have no principles.

      • James1
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

        If he negotiates away our sovereignty I believe many people will be livid, and he will destroy his party

  4. Warwick
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    Fishing is worth less that 0.1% of GDP (the turnover of the entire industry is less than that of Harrods) and the vast majority is exported, most of that to the EU. Given the incalculable damage that leaving the EU single market will do to the wider economy is this really the sword that we want to fall on?

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

      Absolute rubbish. Are we to be the only country in the world who’s shores are controlled by foreigners.
      Your obviously an EU troll.

      • Ignoramus
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

        I find using patriotism as an argument and writing off someone as an E.U troll quite hard to stomach.

        Nearly all English people love their country, Leavers and Remainers alike.

        Very few want to see Brexit fail as all our futures are dependent on it succeeding.

        I would argue that going with the gut is what got us into this mess and hope cool heads will at some point prevail.

        My fear is that this is going to be a disaster and everyone will go patriotic and blame Europe rather than calmly thinking how to remedy the situation.

        Also, you may want to move the apostrophe from “who’s” to “Your”.

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

          Ignoramus, I find Remains using their view of me as thick quite hard to stomach. Ditto with claiming that I go with my gut, rather than rationality.

          Clearly selling out your own country (and your own fish!) to a foreign power is not patriotism, whatever else it is.

          We are in this mess because Remain MPs (and the Remain dominated civil service) refused to do obey the Referendum which they provided, and promised to honour. We could have been out in 2017 if every MP had a shred of decency.

    • Anthony Pollock
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:12 am | Permalink

      We need to take back control and be seen to be doing so. Anything else will be seen as Brexit in name only.

    • BJC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:24 am | Permalink

      It should always be remembered that the EU never negotiates over the matter in hand, they’re always looking at how agreement in one area can be applied in others. A fine example of this was their Covid Recovery Fund. Covid presented a convenient vehicle to set the precedent for the EU to borrow money on behalf of nation states. This can now be applied to other areas and move “The Project” forward.

      Fishing can, in fact, be worth a huge amount to us; not the lump of cod you might have nestling amongst the peas on your plate, but the 70% of the fish that’s not edible. This is used in high value blue bioeconomy manufacture such as pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, fishmeal, etc and key in transitioning from a fossil-based economy. So, the oils extracted from the lowly Mackerel suddenly become priceless and the EU’s voracious appetite for fish becomes clear.

    • Sharon
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:25 am | Permalink

      Warwick

      Our fishing was a great industry which was decimated by our EU membership, and the fisherman are standing by, ready to to start re-building. Fishing is a huge industry, not just dipping nets into the water.

      Rebuilding the industry will revive the north hugely!

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      It is worth the same tiny amount to the EU so they should concede. Why won’t they ?

    • Caterpillar
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      The whole of agriculture is about 0.6% of UK GDP, but it is rarely argued to give it up.

      The smallness of the fishing argument that you allude to can equally be aimed at the EU. From a UK perspective, security, sustainability and sovereignty are all reasonable arguments.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:05 am | Permalink

      We got locked down for less than 0.1% of the population being vulnerable to Covid.

      Sometimes it is right to get excised about 0.1%, especially if it is our 0.1%

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

      Do you have the figures for how much of EU GDP fishing makes up? Should you not be telling them that fishing is less than 0.1%?

      Or is it just the UK who you expect to capitulate?

    • None of the Above
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      Leaving the EU is not all about economics, it is about our independence and our Sovereignty. Please take the long view.

    • Alan Jutson
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:45 am | Permalink

      Warwick

      Its not about fish, its about Control, can you not see that simple fact.

    • Longinus
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:45 am | Permalink

      The EU are not negotiating a deal on services and they value fishing more than us. If they have a claim to our fishing do they also have a claim on future mineral resources, after all we only joined Common Market when North Sea Oil was discovered.

    • Mike Durrans
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      By concentrating on money alone you miss the big picture totally.
      Being a free country and throwing off the shackles of the foul and corrupt neighbour is paramount.

    • beresford
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

      …..and your point is that Britain should be the only country in the world that doesn’t control its own EEZ?

    • Know-Dice
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:12 am | Permalink

      Access to UK waters is a deal breaker for the French (and probably the Dutch & Spanish), why would you give that away without some “quid pro quo” from the EU?

      We have leverage and should use it.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:57 am | Permalink

        the best leverage is ‘Bye Bye’.

    • Old Salt
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:28 am | Permalink

      Warwick-
      Are you not aware that our once very important great fishing industry has over the decades has been decimated and raped by the EU.

    • glen cullen
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:45 am | Permalink

      Our fisheries industry was worth a dam sight more in 1974 before it was sold off to the EU

      • dixie
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

        It wasn’t sold to the EU, “our government” paid them to take it.

    • Wrinkle
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

      0.1% of GDP. If the GDP is huge then 0.1% will also be very significant. Also does that figure include the fuel and its delivery, the boat building, clothing, the manufacture of nets and all the other equipment plus other work involved in fish or is it just the value of the fish itself?

  5. steve
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Oct 15th but the door is still open.

    The man’s a national embarrassment, should be ordered to return to UK immediately and sacked.

    • glen cullen
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      Agree

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

      Steve, Yes, this is too much. Who does Boris think he’s impressing by the numerous fake and missed deadlines? All that’s happening is the closer we get to the cut off point, without having made a robust decision to really Leave, the less time the country has to prepare. Other countries are amazed we’ve rolled over and let the EU kick us so comprehensively. They would have walked years ago. Boris Johnson must now go – another Tory PM failure.

  6. DOM
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Johnson and Gove just ain’t listening. They’ll embrace a deal that denies Brexit and they’ll do it for political convenience knowing they can lie to the public and spin the message of leave.

    Politicians know they can easily deceive a generally ignorant and now wearisome public on these complex issues. There’s no comeback on this most vacuous of PM’s. Johnson can talk it over with his Socialist-Marxist advisers about how they intend to spin the betrayal and pacify Europhobe Tory backbenchers, which they will

    Tory party always comes first for all Tory MPs, always. There isn’t one issue on God’s earth that will break that bond

    • Anthony Pollock
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:14 am | Permalink

      No Boris can’t backtrack on Brexit and get away with it. He would be finished and in a worse position than Teresa May. He has to stay the course until 31st December and the say good by.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:02 am | Permalink

        He has! Gove confirmed the WA and NIP applies whether there is a trade deal or not. N.Ireland stays in the EU customs union and single market. N. Ireland is our country! Wake up FFS. Johnson has betrayed the nation.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        Anthony, Boris has already backtracked – the WA, fake deadlines, and now NI. Amazingly, because he won’t capitulate on everything he will think he’s done wonderfully. He will be completely bewildered at the reaction because he is incapable of seeing the principle of independence – a failing of many Tory MPs.

    • longinus
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:47 am | Permalink

      We will have 3 years to uncover the extent of any betrayal over Brexit before the next general election. The Tories will be polling <10% if there is a BRINO deal.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:03 am | Permalink

        Again, read the WA and NIP. It is alive and well confirmed by Gove two days ago in parliament.

    • Timaction
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

      There are too many people who can determine the truth of any agreement and he is stupid if he thinks he can spin a BRINO. He’ll be gone within months as there will be protests up and down the land.
      Gove is a rat and we smell his disingenuous Northern Ireland agreement where foreign custom officers can direct our own in our own land. This won’t last and the next election will kick them out and anyone else who sells out our Country.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

      Dom, Regretfully, you are correct. And the reason that Boris thinks he can get away with it is he cannot see it as a point of principle – he will genuinely believe he has done well by meeting the EU part way in their outrageous demands to continue ruling us. He has already capitulated over the WA, and numerous deadlines, and now over Northern Ireland being split from the UK.

  7. Mick
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    What part of Free don’t these Europeans understand, France/Germany have in the past 2 century’s tried and failed to conquer us apart from the last 40 odd years they have run us with the help of our politicians, well the British people saw through them in 2016 and decided to take back control and control we will have of our borders fishing and laws and be sovereign again and if the Europeans don’t like that tough, and if anyone else wants what the Europeans want pack your bags and go live in your beloved Europe bye bye you’ll not be missed

    • margaret howard
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      Mick

      “A Daily Mail reader writes…………..”

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:58 am | Permalink

        GOOD JOB SOMEBODY DOES!

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

        You don’t need to be a Daily Mail reader to see what Mick is talking about. Just a bit of intelligence.

    • Andy
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:54 am | Permalink

      You took away our right to move to our beloved Europe. So you are left lumbered with us here. Laughing at you.

      • Wonky Moral Compass
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:47 am | Permalink

        You could have moved to your beloved Europe, if you’d had the stones. Scorning you.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:04 am | Permalink

        We are the ones laughing – at you. All these years you could have become a resident and worker in Malta, Romania, Poland, Cyprus, Czech, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, Ireland. Oh! and France, Germany, Italy.
        Why didn’t you?

        • Fred H
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:05 am | Permalink

          So attractive that Martin lives in Cardiff.

      • Christine
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:50 am | Permalink

        You can still move to Ireland which is in the EU and speaks the same language. So you still have an escape route from this country you loathe. You will need a new job once Brexit is done and your trolling is no longer required.

      • Sea_Warrior
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

        Right? Yes – but not the opportunity. Many non-EU citizens are somehow able to secure residence in France.

      • Alan Paul Joyce
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

        Dear Mr. Redwood,

        @Andy,

        Our beloved Europe. Oh, how touching!

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

        No one in the UK has taken away your right to move to the EU, Andy. Nobody here is stopping you. It is the EU which might – because Italy, Portugal, etc, have regained the right to decide whether to accept you or not. And unfortunately they may decide to reject you. That’s unfortunately for the rest of us.

        • Andy
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

          You stole my right. But that’s okay because one day we’ll take most of your pension, and we’ll pay the rest in euros. So it’ll be evens.

          • Edward2
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:11 am | Permalink

            Best of luck getting elected with that promise in your manifesto.

          • NickC
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:11 am | Permalink

            No, Andy, the UK does not prevent you leaving and going to the EU empire, or the USA, or even China. What may stop you are those states own rules. Have you tried? Or are you just complaining for its own sake?

  8. Mark B
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    Alas I fear we already have and I for one do not blame the EU. I blame those who clearly have lied and decieved this nation and its people for half a century and continue to do so.

    To re-iterate. They call this so called FTA a ‘deal’ because they know it is not a FTA but an Association Agreement. Such an agreement comes with onerous terms and those terms are dictated by the EU. Now you either accept or reject those terms. What is happening is that the EU are extracting terms so bad that it will make others think twice about Leaving. Our government clearly do not want to Leave but to not do so would be the end of the party. Not only would they lose support but, major donors as well. The Tories are trying to have their cake and eat it and the EU is not playing ball. And neither is the electorate.

    You cannot please both sides. It is either BREXIT, or REMAIN. And stop blaming the EU, we’re not falling for it !

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:01 am | Permalink

      I very broadly agree. Though the Tories wanting their cake and eating it and the EU not playing ball is all part of the dance of deception. Sadly, Sir John is playing his own part in this dance – or perhaps he’s stood on a bed of nails in his bare feet…

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

        +1 Mark. JR voted for the WA and NIP which now allows EU customs officials to check goods travelling across our own nation! Border down the Irish Sea, all of which Fake Tory govt and MPs promised would not happen! It is here it is a fact the govt has betrayed the nation.

    • Walt
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:10 am | Permalink

      Well said, Mark B.

    • Oldwulf
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:56 am | Permalink

      Mark B .. the EU has provided a blueprint for the next nation which decides to leave. Just walk away.

      ps “BREXIT” was not on the ballot paper.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

        You are right. It was Leave or Remsi. I’m the EU. And I do not seem to remember anything about a ‘deal’ either.

        • Oldwulf
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:08 am | Permalink

          Hi Mark

          I believe that “Brexit” was a political construct which was designed to obfuscate.

          For example, when the BBC talks about “hard brexit” or “soft brexit”, it lends a certain credibility to a range of possible outcomes. “Hard leave” or “soft leave” does not quite have the same credibility.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

      Mark B, Exactly right. We are in for a long haul to remind politicians like Boris Johnson that independence is a principle, and not something to be bargained away just because the EU happens to be belligerent and vindictive. Four and a half years, and all we have to show for it is a total Remain shambles. If he couldn’t take the decision in July, he ain’t never going to take the decision. New PM time.

  9. Polly
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Your analysis is true, but what we are seeing tells us a great deal about Boris Johnson because finally he has been forced to abandon soft cuddly theory in favor of cold hard reality.

    Mr Johnson repeatedly said he had an “oven ready deal” and everyone believed him.

    Now we find there is no “oven ready deal” and there never was.

    So it’s caveat emptor time with Mr Johnson.

    Not so much because of the EU, but because it’s proof his ideas are frequently based on fantasy.

    Fantasies such as Net Zero, Build Back Better and Great Reset.

    When in the future Mr Johnson is forced to confront the cold hard reality that those fantasies don’t work, it will be time for everyone else to confront the cold hard reality that Mr Johnson has totally wrecked the UK.

    Polly

    Reply The PM did well last night. He stood up to the EU and global establishment who want to drag this country back under their control.

    • Nigl
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:41 am | Permalink

      Totally wrecked the U.K. utter boleaux as usual no objective evidence offered just what annoys personally, net zero, you have totally lost the politics so says more about you than Boris.

      • Polly
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:50 am | Permalink

        I said in the future. Mr Johnson hasn’t yet completed his green policies.

        • Hope
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:08 am | Permalink

          JR, tell the truth. Johnson’s n said it was a million to one against a no deal. Johnson said no border down the Irish Sea. EU officials in the United Kingdom checking goods across our country! N. Ireland is our country! Stop spinning. Tell the truth.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:06 am | Permalink

        Are you talking French? ‘utter boleaux’? Are you an EU troll? You’d half-persuaded me you were Priti Patel…

      • Caterpillar
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        Nig1,

        I read the “totally wrecked” paragraph as a future warning. Given the current deficit and debt situations, then following through on a green / high energy costs ‘strategy’ does appear to be risk-seeking in losses. There is plenty of historical evidence on the importance of relative low energy costs, there are plenty of articles on the challenges and risks of the wind that the PM expects. Polly’s warning is fair.

        • dixie
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

          But Polly has been so very wrong before, such as with his dangerous claims about ACE inhibitors earlier in the year.

          • Caterpillar
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:22 am | Permalink

            Whether by luck or by judgement, I think the warning has merit.

    • Polly
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      True, but he said he had an “oven ready deal”.

      Where is the “oven ready deal” ?

      It doesn’t exist, never has, and was always a fantasy.

      The same applies to pretending Net Zero, Build Back Better and Great Reset will work. They won’t work, all are based on Boris Johnson’s dangerous fantasy.

      Polly

      • Anthony Pollock
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:17 am | Permalink

        I think that the Free Trade Agreement was the “oven ready deal”, it is just that the EU don’t want a FTA and this has led to all the shenanigans’ over the last 12 months.

      • BJC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

        Polly: I believe the “oven-ready” deal related to the WA, although Remainers have skillfully applied it to a trade deal until it’s become a new “truth”. There is, of course, an “oven-ready” trade deal in the form of a stand alone WTO deal, policed by an independent process, so for once, Mr Johnson wasn’t varying the truth too much.

        • Hope
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:11 am | Permalink

          It could not relate to the WA and NIP because Johnson said May’s deal was dead! He cannot have it both ways, nor can JR!

      • Bryan Williams
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

        There was an oven ready deal but the EU didn’t even try to switch the oven on.

      • GilesB
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:39 am | Permalink

        The ‘oven ready deal’ referred to the Withdrawal Agreement.

        As Liam Fox said a Free Trade Agreement should be the easiest in history, but wouldn’t be because of politics. He was right on both points. On the first point because the most difficult part of negotiating a Free Trade Agreement is aligning standards and that wasn’t needed as the U.K. and EU standards are already aligned. On the second point because, as MarkB says above, the EU don’t want a Free Trade Agreement with an independent U.K., they want an Association Agreement with a subservient satrap.

      • Oldwulf
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:43 am | Permalink

        The UK has an “oven ready” deal.
        It seems the EU might not want to put it in the oven.
        Too many cooks.
        Just walk away.

      • None of the Above
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:54 am | Permalink

        That is not quite correct Polly.
        Boris Johnson was right when he claimed that there was a deal which was oven-ready but, unfortunately, the EU refused access to the kitchen.
        We have traded with the EU for decades and the standard and quality of our goods was understood and recognised. This recognition always takes up the vast bulk of negotiations of an FTA so things should have happened much earlier in the year if both parties were willing.
        Sadly, the EU were not willing for internal political reasons.
        That is, of course, their choice and one which they were perfectly entitled to make had they not said that they would do otherwise in the withdrawal agreement and political declaration. They are now in breach of more than one article of that Withdrawal Agreement and I hope that we now consider repudiating that agreement in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Treaties.

      • Robert McDonald
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:55 am | Permalink

        “it SHOULD be an oven ready deal” …. and it was and is, but the oven needs to opened and the EU doesn’t do open.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:57 am | Permalink

        He did have such a deal ready, polly.
        Very fair and reasonable it was too.

        Sadly the EU do not want a deal.
        In my opinion they never have wanted a deal.
        Thinking that they did was the real fantasy.

        • acorn
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

          Polly, should you be masochistic enough to read it, Boris’s “oven ready deal” is at – https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886010/DRAFT_UK-EU_Comprehensive_Free_Trade_Agreement.pdf

          I keep repeating to Brexiteers that the UK left the EU voluntarily. The EU did not throw us out of the Union. Article 50 does not guarantee anything to a member state that leaves except a bill for outstanding debts accumulated while it was a member..

          • Edward2
            Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

            Well just leave then.
            Is that allowed?

          • a-tracy
            Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

            Are those debts offset against the value of assets our membership and payments helped to create?

          • NickC
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:09 am | Permalink

            Acorn, We have not left – the EU controls us just as much as it did in 2016.

            You are wrong that the EU treaties only guarantee a bill on leaving. The EU’s treaties, including Art50, Art8 and Art3 (all TEU) require the EU to negotiate (not threaten); including respecting its neighbours according to the UN principle of self-determination (amongst others). Of course the EU treaties could be lying.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:13 am | Permalink

        Boris is not very good with his metaphors… he actually meant to say “their goose was cooked”….

        • Fred H
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

          I look forward to frying their fish.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:38 am | Permalink

      The “oven ready” deal was the withdrawal agreement. Not a single person said the “oven ready deal” was the FTA. But you know that don’t you ? Read the Conservative manifesto from the last election – it is crystal clear on that. I see a lot of Remainders peddling this lie.

      • Polly
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:05 am | Permalink

        The Withdrawal Agreement was never about agreeing to withdraw from the European Union.

        It was about pretending to withdraw but really staying in.

        That is why it exists. If UK PMs had really been serious from the beginning about a clean break instead of being pushed into it by events, the UK would have left properly long ago.

        Polly

        • NickC
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:09 am | Permalink

          Polly, Quite right.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:15 am | Permalink

        Roy,
        Not so. Johnson said May’s deal was dead. He also said no border down the Irish Sea, no checks etc. He has just caved on all his promises that are in the WA and NIP. He broke his promises to the DUP as May did before that “we” would leave as one country. N.Ireland remains in the customs union and single market. Let JR confirm otherwise. N.Ireland has not left the EU in any meaningful respect.

        Fake Tory govt lied and betrayed the nation, particularly N. Ireland.

      • Andy
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

        Interesting. You say the oven ready deal was the withdrawal agreement. Which means the only mandate you have anywhere for anytime of Brexit is the referendum – which promised trade on better terms than EU membership after leaving. In other words, you had no mandate anywhere for a no deal. Thanks for confirming.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

          Did you not get a leaflet Andy?
          I did.

        • NickC
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:18 am | Permalink

          Andy, The Referendum mandate was to “Leave”, and no other. Anything which results in continued EU control is therefore not Leave. There are thus only two possibilities which comply with the vote: a free trade deal, without EU control; or WTO (“no deal”). That is the mandate for no deal.

    • Everhopeful
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:41 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply
      Thanks so much for explaining that.
      You’ve dragged me out of my personal little slough of despond yet again.

      • Everhopeful
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:29 am | Permalink

        Oh dear!
        But it doesn’t explain why Boris is pursuing and imposing globalist policies, to the HUGE detriment of the UK.
        I really don’t understand.
        Are you SURE there is any will in govt. to resist EU/globalists?

    • Arthur Wrightiss
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:15 am | Permalink

      There was always the possibility of an oven ready deal.
      Unfortunately the EU threw their toys out of the pram, superglued the oven door shut and stomped out of the kitchen.
      For heaven sake Boris, just say that’s it, the end, no more , it’s over, no more endless talking. WTO it is.

    • The Prangwizard
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:14 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply:

      in which case why could he not just say ‘it’s all over’? WHY?

      You praise talk and only talk. It’s better that way, criticism might upset some people and might seem disloyal, and that just would not do, would it old chap?

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:19 am | Permalink

      REPLY TO REPLY….but all these months and years of so-called negotiation played into EU hands. the longer it went on the worst outcome for the UK – and the EU know it while enjoying the 4 years of resigning money.

  10. Shirley M
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    The EU show their true colours, which we Brexiters already knew of, but others may not. I guess the EU dirty tricks will be in full flow now. The EU has no integrity or honour. I trust Boris is ready with domestic bills intended to countermand the attempts that will be made to punish and damage the UK.

    The real hurt is that some UK citizens actually want the UK to fail, in their defence of the EU.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:04 am | Permalink

      It sounds like you’re saying that Blowers has not been a Brexiter, but that the true nature of the EU is only now dawning on him…

    • Andy
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:52 am | Permalink

      I want the UK to succeed. This is why I reject your Brexit which is destined to make us fail. Having been fed lies about the EU for 30 years it is no wonder you embrace those lies.

      But those who understand the folly of your Brexit lorry parks, and your masses of pointless extra Brexit bureaucracy, and your border down the Irish Sea, and your visa waivers just to travel – we will continue to stand up for your interests.

      Let me give you an example. One of the reciprocal benefits of EU membership was the EHIC card. This gave us access to medical care in EU countries on the same terms as locals. So if locals pay 100 Euros, so do we. If it’s free for them, it’s free for us – and so on. The additional cost of any treatment is then picked up by the patient’s home country. So, no. This is not health tourism.

      EHIC is going for us. Taken by Tory Brexit.

      Whilst everyone loses out three groups are particularly badly affected:
      1) The old. Many of you who contribute to this blog will face significantly higher insurance costs to travel to Europe from January because EHIC has gone. You are more likely to need healthcare than the young and your needs are more likely to be complex. So you will pay more for insurance as a result.
      2) Those with pre-existing conditions. Many cancer patients, for example, will now find prohibitively expensive to go on holiday to Europe. The joy of a trip away for the infirm, stolen by the Tories.
      3) Ex pats. Particularly retired ones who are less likely to have private health care and who are more likely to need health services.

      This is something Mr Redwood and his chums have taken from you.
      Slippery Michael Gove was asked about it in Parliament yesterday. Apparently you are not allowed to call these charlatans liars – even when they are – but Gove answered a different question. Even now he is trying to pretend Tory Brexit is cost free. It isn’t.

      At some point you will all realise that they are lying to you. The quicker you get there the less painful this will be.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 7:31 am | Permalink

        I don’t think that they care that they are being lied to. They know that.

        All that so many of them want is for this government to hurt those whom they hate.

        How consumed one would have to be to work like that is horrifying to conceive, but there’s much in life like that.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:26 am | Permalink

        Your posts normally spew hatred for anyone older than you Andy.
        So this post of yours telling us how sad you are for the changes to the EHIC card is hollow and comes across as false and gloating.
        PS
        You assume there will not be any new arrangements over reciprocal health care with European countries.
        There are already some between the UK and non EU nations like Australia.

      • BJC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

        Andy: Do you seriously believe the government (taxpayer) doesn’t pay for every single scheme we’ve signed up to, including this one? Don’t you think it’s more likely the government will review policy to cover treatment for chronic/pre-existing medical conditions, as they currently do with EHIC?

      • NickC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

        Andy, Why do you assume that an independent UK will fail? You never provide any reasoning (rationality) to show why uniquely the UK cannot be independent of the EU, as the rest of the world is. Until you back up your frequent claim of our impending failure, you are just barking in the dark.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 12, 2020 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

        Except Andy we never charged Europe for the nHS treatments on the card because there wasn’t a mechanism for it in our free to use Health Service. So our Health service lost a lot of money from this and most of our travellers still took our travel insurance. In fact whilst on a University Trip my son was told he had to have travel insurance and not rely on EHIC card he had, he couldn’t go on the trip without a certificate to say he had it!!

    • Know-Dice
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      Not just UK citizens, many MPs in the last Parliament.

      • Old Salt
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:45 am | Permalink

        K-D
        And the Lords

    • Christine
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

      The problem is that Boris signed away our rights in the WA, which is binding, with the promise of an FTA in the PD which is non-binding. Anyone who has followed the EU over the years knows this is how they work. They will bank any gains then renege on any agreement they don’t like. Although I like the European people Boris should remember that the EU is not our friend, it is a clever snake which he needs to be very wary of. They are much better at playing the political game and have the Globalists on their side. Don’t just walk away, run.

      • NickC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:22 am | Permalink

        Christine, Perfect.

  11. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    It’s simple. They want us to fail and come back begging. We have never begged before so don’t start now. No other country has had to give up their sovereignty so why us? Stand fast Boris and get us out. The world will see what the EU is truly like if they make life difficult for us. We already know both from past experience and the present.

    • Callan
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:10 am | Permalink

      So on your reckoning any country that agrees a trade deal isnt sovereign. That means theres only one sovereign country on the planet, North Korea. And you Brexiters are surprised that people think youve lost all touch with reality …

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:08 am | Permalink

        Callan, I read that Liz Truss’ department was signing lots of trade deals so hardly North Korea! Such as Japan; Canada; Korea; Switzerland; Israel; Norway; Egypt; Vietnam; Singapore; South Africa; Colombia; Chile; Peru; Ukraine; Morocco; Kenya and more.. I don’t understand the EU wanting us to trade with other nations other than them?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

        Don’t be ridiculous. Oh you are a remainer. Nuff said.

      • dixie
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

        The EU don’t want a trade deal.

      • NickC
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

        Callan, Actually, Fedupsoutherner said “no other country has had to give up their sovereignty” which is the opposite of your claim that a country with a trade deal “isn’t sovereign”.

        The EU’s trade deal with Japan does not mean that EU rules have primacy in Japan. But remaining in the EU means EU rules have primacy in the UK. That’s the difference.

        The EU treaties are there so that the EU can rule us – thereby removing our sovereignty. A free trade deal simply removes some tariffs and NTBs, but not our sovereignty.

    • Andy
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      Every country which signs any deal with any other country gives up a little bit of sovereignty when it does so. And it does so in the national interest.

      When Liz Truss signed her deal with Japan – the one which is less good than what we had as an EU member – she gave up some sovereignty. The UK now cannot unilaterally change anything which would affect the terms of that deal. Your MP had no binding vote on the deal – so you literally had no say. None.

      We come to agreement with all sorts of countries about all sorts of things. Trade, visits, flights between us, the environment. Does this cause any difficulty for you in your life? No, we strike these deals to make things easier not to forego some mythical power which largely exists in the heads of Conservative MPs.

      Take your argument to its logical extreme. The MOST sovereign countries are those which shun the most international agreements. Which countries are these? Well, let’s see. We have North Korea. Iran. Venezuela. Cuba. Syria. This is literally what you are arguing for. That we join this club of international pariahs. No wonder Brexit is shunned by the sensible and embraced by the fools.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:30 am | Permalink

        Yet again you fail to understand the difference between a mutually beneficial trade deal made by independent nations and the EU.
        Canada and America have such deals
        Australia and New Zealand have such deals.
        But they are independent nations.
        They make their own laws.

      • NickC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:27 am | Permalink

        That is completely false, Andy. Signing a (normal) trade deal does not result in loss of sovereignty because the nations involved willingly choose new trading conditions and can willingly abrogate the agreement at any time. By contrast a member of the EU submits to new, extra laws, to which it may not agree, but which it is forced to accept. The EU treaties are not trade deal treaties, they are the building blocks of a new sovereign state. We have chosen not to participate in that new state.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:05 am | Permalink

      Indeed but he has already given up on Northern Ireland.

      • Hope
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:16 am | Permalink

        LL,
        Not given up given away!

    • Bryan Harris
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      +
      … … Heath did his share of begging to get us in — at any cost, in fact

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 5:11 am | Permalink

        Begging to the EU and betraying the fishermen and the country yet not even asking the UK voters for consent.

  12. Grey Friar
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    The EU is a market of over 400 million. The UK is a market of over 60 million. Of course the UK has to offer more to get access to the EU market than the EU has to offer to get access to the UK market, because the EU is bigger and stronger and its market is worth more. If you don’t want to do a deal, fine, your choice, but face up to the fact that the UK has been made hugely weaker and poorer as a result of your failure to face up to the power imbalances caused by Brexit

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:57 am | Permalink

      Only a fraction of that market actually have any significant trade with us and they will suffer equally from no deal.
      The EU is a political entity, nothing more nothing less.
      We want out.

    • matthu
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:01 am | Permalink

      You are assuming that we sell more to the EU than they do to us, based on market size. But the reverse is true.

    • Pud
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:38 am | Permalink

      The choice for the UK regarding the single market is:
      a) be in it, paying a huge cost both financially (billions) and the loss of independence
      b) be outside, paying tariffs. The cost of tariffs is offset by not paying billion to the EU and being able to buy goods from non-EU countries without paying the EU tariffs that protect EU companies.

      b) sounds good to me, that’s why I voted for it.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:45 am | Permalink

      So why didn’t we have to offer “more” to get a FTA with Japan ? And why didn’t the EU demand “more” in their FTA with Canada ? And given we have a trade deficit of £79 billion with the EU why should we “offer” anything at all ? £79bn a year is what we’re offering them.

      • Ben
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:22 am | Permalink

        because Japan and Canada in their endeavours are converging to EU standards while we want to diverge away- big difference- it’s how business is done where there is no trust- 79bn is important to them but not as important to them as their Single Market

        • Edward2
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:32 am | Permalink

          If you want to sell into an export market you have meet their standards for the item.
          Which exporters do for every market they sell into.
          Already.

      • Andy
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

        How many lorries travel from Canada to the EU each year and what is the volume of trade?

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

          You are being silly again Andy.
          Canada uses airplanes and ships.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

            Thank you, Bluebottle.

          • Edward2
            Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:21 am | Permalink

            Is that your best intellectual response?
            Pathetic Martin.

        • NickC
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:26 am | Permalink

          Andy, How many lorries travel from Japan to the EU? How many lorries travel from Canada to the USA? Do EU laws have primacy in Japan? Or in Canada? Do all laws made in Washington USA apply to Canada? For God’s sake grow up!

      • Billy Elliott
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

        Difficult to say about Japanese requirements but our deal was built on EU deal. We were given the EU leftover quotas. So if the quota for cheese is 21 000 tonns and EU uses 20 000 we can have what is left of it aka 1000 tonnes. Maybe japanese just tought it is practical? Btw we have trade deficit with them as well.

        EU – Canada is ten per cent of the trade between EU and UK. And there is an ocean between EU and Canada. So maybe those are the reasons? But the part of your question “why didn’t EU demand more from Canada” is what puzzles me. Your logic seems to be that they shold have been demanding more since we are demanded more. Is that right? According to my knowledge there is no requirements to treat countries equally what it comes toFTA negotiaitons. It is their market. They control the terms of access. I don’t believe USA will be given same terms as Canada if that deal ever happens. If Norway would one day want to be part of EU – which it won’t – I would not be suprised if EU would demand 70 per cent of oil and 75 per cent of fish…but it would still be up to Norweigians if they accept it or not. So it boils down to question: will we accept their offer or not. No need to make up a drama. We chose to leave. If want the FTA we know what are the terms.

        About the £79 bn deficit…as pointed out many times by the Leave side the trade will continue. It might well be smaller but won’t be zero. Taking to account that the sum is mostly shared with four biggest countries who have acces to their own market and other markets I believe they already have a plan b.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:35 am | Permalink

          The two biggest importers into the EU are America and China.
          They don’t have a free trade agreement with the EU.

        • NickC
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:29 am | Permalink

          Billy, The more difficult the EU makes trade between us, the less we will buy from them. Your choice.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      Not so – we have had access to free trade for some time and the balance of trade lies with the EU, some £100 bn deficit in trade.

      We are not discussing potential we are discussing reality and the EU has more to lose than we do.

    • BJC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:18 am | Permalink

      Grey Friar: What on earth is the point of offering more for access to a market of over 400 million when the evidence of the last 40+ years shows that they’ve never been overly interested in much of our product and when they were, the business has somehow landed up on the continent, anyway. How has this benefited us?

      A high percentage of what we produce remains here for domestic consumption; indeed, UK exports to the EU are worth less than 8% of our GDP. In reality, it’s our own Single Market of over 60 million that’s clearly been far more beneficial for the EU, yet they’ve never felt an obligation to offer us anything for the privilege; in fact, we’ve been obliged to pay them £billions, implying we’re grateful for their patronage.

    • GilesB
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:41 am | Permalink

      The EU exports more to the U.K., than the U.K. exports to the EU.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:08 am | Permalink

        massively so.

      • glen cullen
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

        What’s happening this week has nothing to do with trade or free trade deals, the UK only has 16% of companies that export to the EU so 84% of UK companies have nothing to do with the EU

        This UK/EU deal is political and not trade related

    • Bryan Harris
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      Talk about remoaner bluster – We haven’t even left yet, SO how can you justify such inane comments.

      Exactly how has “the UK has been made hugely weaker and poorer”

      I mean, at lesat give it 12 months before you start with the anguish.

      As for size of markets – in trade the EU needs us far more than we need them simply because they sell us far more than we sell them – so who has the upper hand? The UK will be able to control what gets imported and at what WTO rates.

    • Shirley M
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

      A trade deal will automatically benefit the EU more than the UK, due to their huge trading surplus, so why does the UK have to offer more for an already one-sided deal? The EU may be larger, but it doesn’t equal the trade that the UK gives the EU. The EU also wants to exclude services from the deal, so of very little benefit to the UK . If the EU want a deal, they have to make it attractive, but they do as much as possible to make it unattractive. Therefore it would be logical to assume the EU don’t want a deal. They just want control.

      • Grey Friar
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:27 am | Permalink

        Wake up and smell the coffee Shirley. Did Ursula come running to London yesterday? No, Boris went to Brussels . Big is strong, it’s how the world works. And after Brexit we are weak

        • NickC
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:29 am | Permalink

          Grey, So when Barnier tripped along to London, does that mean the EU was weaker than the UK for that week? You Remains get barmier by the minute.

    • Robert McDonald
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      So how is that we can buy Chinese, Korean, Australian, American … in fact the rest of the worlds goods in the eu even though they don’t have to give up their fishing or their laws to trade. It’s called trade not compliance. We will trade under WTO rules and we won’t have to pay 20 billion a year to do so … but if it has to be net of tariffs we’ll get more back than we pay out.

    • IanT
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:54 am | Permalink

      Frankly, if we are forced to buy elsewhere because of tariffs, that will be very good thing. That £100B annual trade deficit cannot continue for ever. UK Exporters have already been looking outside of the EU (since the vote) and that makes good sense too – when the EU is declining in overall global economic importance and there are growth markets elsewhere.

      We were the first country to approve the vaccine and I think shows what is possible if you are not tied to the demands and needs of 27 other nations with their own priorities and needs. And that’s just approval – it will be interesting to see how distribution priorities are handled…

      This will clearly be a bumpy road (it was always going to be) and the EU will lay every rock in our path that they can – because the EU cannot allow us to be seen to prosper outside of the EU. Just accept this and get on with it.

    • None of the Above
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:59 am | Permalink

      I don’t agree.
      I believe that if the PM follows this through correctly and sticks to his mandate, we will prosper and our country will be strengthened.
      Might is not always right and large does not always equate to strength.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      Wrong – the size of the market is not the point. They export more to the UK than we export to them. So it is more in their interests to have free trade than the UK’s. If we had import taxes on these we would get more tax than we would have to pay out.

    • Edward2
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      Grey,
      Access to European markets is enjoyed by loads of non EU member nations.
      China and USA are the two biggest importers into Europe.
      They are not members of the EU.
      Access is guaranteed by WTO trade arrangements.

      Or are you suggesting the EU will try to blockade just the UK, out of all other nation from selling to 400 million people?

    • formula57
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:12 am | Permalink

      China and the USA make trade deals satisfactory to them and their trade partners? Why can’t the Evil Empire?

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:09 am | Permalink

        protectionism.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

      Grey Friar, Your “power imbalances” don’t go away if we remained in the EU. Actually they’re worse because the EU has more control over us (“EU laws have primacy”) than we have over the EU. Out of the EU the imbalance in size is counteracted by our independence. Which is why independence is so important.

  13. Polly
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    The whole concept of sending envoys to Brussels was always wrong.

    There should have been no negotiating teams, no dinner dashes but instead an assumption there would be no deal and consequently stay at home and plan.

    If the EU had really wanted to talk seriously, they would have visited the UK.

    Showing weakness in situations like this never works.

    Polly

  14. No Longer Anonymous
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    Destroying the British pub.

    That’s the Tories finished.

    (I thought we were supposed to be defending Britishness.)

  15. Andy
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    You left the EU. You are still moaning. The entire fault for this mess belongs to Tory extremists – and you are now all worried because we are going to make you own the blame.

    As I have said all along: public inquiry, prison. The simple question is when and how many we lock up.

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:09 am | Permalink

      first we must build a lot more prisons.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

        Andy would like to be the Stakinist judge.
        It is how socialists behave given free reign.

        • Edward2
          Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

          Stalinist..l

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

      Andy, We haven’t left because the EU still controls us the same way (or worse) than it did in 2016. We Remain in the EU. So the entire current mess is a Remain mess. You wanted this to happen, and cheered on the Remains in Parliament every time they blocked Leave. And of course selling out (actually Remain gave us away for free and didn’t even sell us out!) your own country to a foreign enemy is treason.

  16. Dave Andrews
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Here am I on the edge of a seat, not over the question of whether or not we will get a good deal, but over the question of will the PM sell the country down the river.
    If we don’t get a deal, serve notice on the WA from the beginning of Jan. It will no longer be in our interest to keep it.

  17. Bob Dixon
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    No deal for me.

  18. margaret howard
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    JR

    The usual Brexiteer excuse : blame everybody else.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

      So let us have the independence we voted for, Margaret, and when (if) it all goes wrong you will be able to smugly say I told you so. In the meantime we remain controlled by your EU empire. So that’s Remain. So the current mess is therefore a Remain mess. So you stop blaming Brexit, which hasn’t happened yet.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

        Hear, hear Nick C. I’m fed up with people who don’t seem able to support their own country.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

        It absolutely has happened, Nick.

        Rubbish, isn’t it?

        And it will get worse.

  19. steve
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    One deadline after another, they must think we’re bloody stupid.

    • Fred H
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:10 am | Permalink

      they correctly judge our politicians are!

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

      Steve, They do. They’ve said so. Frequently.

  20. Sharon
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Grey Friar

    I don’t think the EU will ever change their controlling ways. They were set up as an organisation that used democracy as a front. They are likely to lose Poland, Hungary and Italy in the near future, and that’s nothing to do with the awkward British leaving, but everything to do with the behaviour of Brussels!

    Anybody who knows anyone living in Europe tells the same story – they are jealous of us leaving! Macron once said he’d never give his country a referendum, because he knew it would vote to leave.

  21. agricola
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Absolutely correct.

  22. bill brown
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Sir JR

    We shoould not compromise our independence

    We all agree which is why the negotiations are on-going and difficult. But to say that no deail is better than a deal, before we have the full details, is just anothe fake news from you with a far too biased view on the EU. And it is really getting rather boring

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

      Bill, You accept that the UK must not compromise our independence. But that is exactly what the EU is demanding we must do. Which is why we know that any deal the EU is willing to make will be worse than no deal.

      • bill brown
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:54 am | Permalink

        NickC

        thre are different intepretations of independence, when it comes to looking at the more or less economic conveniences of a deal and no deal

  23. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    It’s like leaving membership of the gym next door and still being expected to follow their dietary and workout plans plan and the gym expecting to use your drive as a car park for its members.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 5:23 am | Permalink

      Plus to obey any future rules they care to pass.

  24. Roger Phillips
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Walk away now. We will prosper without them.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:04 am | Permalink

      The demand for Blackpool rock, for dimpled pint pots and for other such patriotic products is only limited, Roger.

      Surely you know that?

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

        Perhaps your most ridiculous post Martin.
        The UK exports tens of thousands of different products all over the world.
        Surely you know that?

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

        Martin you are showing your true colours in a total lack of respect for British manufacturing still the 9th in the world manufacturing.com and perhaps we will want or need to get back to 5th or 6th. Necessity is the mother of invention.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 9:05 am | Permalink

        rather like Welsh coal and steel. However whenever a volunteering friend meets up he brings Welsh cakes for me!

  25. wab
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    The EU negotiations have been made deliberately complex by the UK. Beneath all the obfuscation and deliberate efforts to dilute, delay or cancel Brexit, there is a simple disagreement. The UK says it wants to have its cake and eat it too. The EU says no and has said this since day one.

    Redwood shouldn’t worry his pretty little face. Boris is just pretending to negotiate. His “oven ready deal” is “no deal”. This at least gets Labour off the hook from having to support any deal (no matter how thin or how bad it is). And maybe, finally, the Brexiters will take responsibility for the mess they have gotten the country into. But don’t count on it, they will continue to whine about and blame the EU ad infinitum.

    • Edward2
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:40 am | Permalink

      Rude again as usual wab.
      PS
      The EU doesn’t want a free trade arrangement and has made it clear for the last four years.
      It has agreed trade deals with many independent nations.
      But wants to punish us for daring to leave.

  26. Lifelogic
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Still no correction of the vaccination priority order to reflect the far higher risks that men face for a given age. If the vaccine works and is safe then this negligence will surely kill many perhaps hundreds of people and put more pressure on the NHS. It delivers far less good from each vaccination if you do not gender adjust for gender.

    Not even any MPs or journalists asking questions as to why the “experts” are making this basic and obvious error.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:07 am | Permalink

      Why trust these “experts” on anything else given this clear incompetence?

      • Newmania
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:39 am | Permalink

        Good plan you stick with Domestos …I`ll go with the experts and their vaccine .

        Good for the gene pool at least

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 5:20 am | Permalink

          I am entirely in favour of sensible and suitably safe vaccines.
          I am merely pointing out that they have produced a priority list that is wrong and will kill more people than a sensible one that reflects the true gender and other risk data.

          Trump said “disinfectant” not “domestos” perhaps you mis-heard – intentionally or otherwise.

      • DaveK
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:56 am | Permalink

        Hang on LL, the are just waiting for a wikipedia update.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 5:25 am | Permalink

          Perhaps I should post it there for them?

  27. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    I don’t see these German car exporters and Dutch agri exporters lobbying their governments. Maybe they understand something that British brexiteers haven’t yet: the integrity of the single market cannot be compromised.

    • John Partington
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:04 am | Permalink

      Being an avid supporter of all things European, you would say that,wouldn’t you?

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:18 am | Permalink

      Perhaps they feel their interference would fall on deaf ears, or maybe they are worried the Commission might slap them down with punitive sanctions for not being good EUropeans and speaking out of turn.

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:26 am | Permalink

      I agree Peter, I think it is time Boris realised this is not going anywhere now and he has no choice but to walk away. I know lots of people that lost their work when looms, wires and cables and other manufacturing was encouraged with EU grants to companies to ship out production to Poland and other EU nations.

      I feel sorry for the French wine producers and cheese producers, their car and van manufacturers selling but as they have said Fish are more important to them. Our market we’ve been told is not important to the Germans or Dutch. The British cheese manufacturers must be rubbing their hands together – they need to get Liz Truss to promote them and other replacements if Tesco and the other big UK stores can’t get their act together on this. This isn’t going to be sorted out to our needs and red lines by Sunday, the end.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 6:58 am | Permalink

        @a-tracy: Of course I wish British manufacturers every success with expanding their businesses. Over her, cheddar cheeses and stilton were already a rare sight, available in specialised shops, but Scottish whiskys are common. If I have to pay a little more for it, so be it. Better I order some more English tea and Earl grey before 31 December!

        • a-tracy
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

          I honestly don’t think the UK will make our exports too expensive to the EU we like to sell and if the UK collapses in a puddle of tears as some are expecting, you could get your tea from Twinings and it could become less costly if the pound dives.

    • Alan Jutson
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

      Peter

      Just because you do not see it, does not mean that it is not happening.

      Perhaps they are being rather more sensible and sensibly talking behind the scenes, as opposed to our bleating lot, at least that’s what their own trade press seems to suggest.

      Believe me, they like selling their goods to “Treasure Island” for big profit margins.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 6:50 am | Permalink

        @Alan Jutson: Of course they do like selling. But for them the issue is rather simple: The integrity of the single market cannot allow cherry picking by any third party. “No tariffs, no quota, no dumping” was the simple message from Ursula as soon as she became spokesperson for the 27 EU members, which have kept very unified on this throughout this sad saga.
        The Dutch export market to the rest of the EU27 is many times larger than that to the UK. So why would Dutch exporters want it to be undermined by unfair competition from aboad?

        • Edward2
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

          Why is it cherry picking?
          The EU is refusing to agree to a generous free trade arrangement.
          This means what Ursula said ” no tariffs no quotas no dumping”

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

            So where is the law that says that the European Union must do that?

            And in what court would you seek to enforce it?

          • Edward2
            Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:24 am | Permalink

            Silly statement Martin.
            It is something the UK has offered.
            The EU can reject it if they wish.

        • a-tracy
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

          “No tariffs, no quota, no dumping”

          So if Britain offers no tariffs as now?

          What is the quota we are asking for?

          What dumping are you anticipating we would do?

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

      It cuts both ways.
      We’ve been saying that for years.
      Please be the first to shoot yourself in the foot. A larger foot then ours.

    • NickC
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

      PvL, Don’t be silly, no-one is trying to compromise your single market. You are bound by WTO rules to allow us access. All we insist on is you obeying international law. It is UK sovereignty which cannot be compromised.

    • Fred H
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      COMPROMISE? – – a funny word for an EU supporter to use!

  28. Richard1
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Agreed, there is no choice but to say no to a demand that the EU is entitled in effect to set laws taxes and regulations in any area it deems relevant to the single market with no limits into the future. No independent democracy should agree such a thing.

    Then there must be huge pressure on the govt to make it a success. So far we have seen next to nothing out of Boris Johnson’s govt in this regard, and he has used 1 of his 5 years. From Jan 1 there is no time to waste.

    If it is the failure so confidently expected by Continuity Remain, then we must accept we will have to rejoin, euro and all, and Brexiteers must admit that for whatever reason, proper independence is no longer possible for a mid-sized country like the U.K.

    On the other hand, if it works, and the U.K. goes on to outperform the eurozone, there will be a massive and sustained boost to confidence in the U.K., as it becomes clear that no one and nothing holds a sword of Damocles over us. That’s a big prize, but it will take bold radicalism from the govt.

  29. Bryan Harris
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    …and yet the deadline keeps being extended – NOW allegedly Sunday.

    Nothing is being gained by extending the pain, except to give the EU hope that we will in the end surrender to them

    • bill brown
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:18 am | Permalink

      Bryan Harris

      What a really nonsense conclusion, when we have no idea about the final idea

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

        Ten years later will you still be saying that bill?

        • bill brown
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:52 am | Permalink

          Edward 2

          I will not be holdingon to old idea about referendum/elcction and treaty results as long as you held on to the belief that the US Supreme court could change the outcome of the US election

          • Edward2
            Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:26 am | Permalink

            Plainly the Supreme Court can change election results.
            It did so when Bush won.

      • NickC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:44 am | Permalink

        Bill, Of course we have an idea about the final deal. There are only three possible options: a no deal; or the EU accepts the UK is sovereign; or Boris gives away some of our sovereignty. Since Boris has already given away some UK sovereignty, the outcome is bound to be the third option. QED.

    • Christine
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

      Maybe they are trying to get a bad deal done under cover of the Christmas festivities hoping we are too busy catching up with our families to notice.

  30. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    When will there be an end to this pantomime? What will be achieved in 4 days that hasn’t been achieved in 4 years? Or is it all part of a pre-arranged plan to make this as theatrical as possible?

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:28 am | Permalink

      Well exactly. Boris, Gove, McVey, Mordaunt, Leadsom, Redwood, Hoey, Stuart, to name a few they need for once in this final stage of the saga to make some noise publicly.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

      Exactly ! And it will be rammed through parliament at break neck speed with no one able to read it.

      What a sham our country is.

  31. The Prangwizard
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    It’s pathetic.

    Only ‘four more days’ but then up pops someone who says there is scope for an extension. We are told the gap is too wide so why does Boris not have the guts to say it’s over. Why did he not come back saying they are asking too much and we are going it alone. Maybe Carrie won’t let him.

    It is pathetic, he pretends to be tough and he claims he won’t back down, but can’t bring himself to make the decision. Pathetic. Looking for a few words so he can claim a deal which sells us out.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

      If you could sum it up in one word, Pw, what would that be?

  32. oldtimer
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    Why wait until Sunday? The differences expressed are fundamental. And they have been stated by Johnson and Merkel only yesterday.

  33. George Brooks.
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    The EU clearly does not want a deal or if they do they are being absolutely stupid or more likely vindictive about it.

    We have given our word that we will keep in line with their market and if we don’t, there is an international court for arbitration. So are they willing to keep their word that no new rules will be sprung on us, so that we are wrong-footed? It appears not!

    We have offered a 3 year phased reduction over fishing (presently refused) so that change in control of our waters is not forced on them over night.

    Added to this they want the ECJ to prevail.

    Last night I think the lovely Ursula von der Leyen got the message at long last, that we will have full control of laws and coastal waters on 1st January and if they still want to punish us for leaving, so be it.

    However, if they want a deal it is there on the table ”oven ready” for them to pick up!

  34. Sea_Warrior
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    And the EU expected to continue exporting to us, under an FTA, while offering next to nothing for our financial services industry. Yep – WTO it is. But the government needs to review its whole diplomatic strategy in this debacle. It has been a shambles – and politicians are largely to blame.

  35. Fred H
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    Four wasted years – so many have had watch the saga in bewilderment.
    No Deal was an almost certainty from Day 1.

  36. ferdi
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    But will Boris stick to his guns. Everyone seems to be confusing trade with sovereignty..

  37. ukretired123
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    The Gold Sovereign!

    So named because it was and still is the ultimate foundation and fabric of any nation.

    Sovereignty is gold. You either have it or you do not. The U.N. Charter is based on every country has a right to self-determination. Like pregnancy you can’t be slightly sovereign as Doctor VDL should know.

  38. Alan Jutson
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Summed up in two short paragraphs JR, but it’s taken our Government four and a half years to actually realise it.

    What was the point in trying to negotiate with them, when they simply do not accept the idea of sovereignty.
    We are and were simply punishing ourselves in continuing to talk and make concessions.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

      Alan

      It is not the EU, it’s our side. They do not want to Leave. So they are negotiating an Association Agreement and calling it a ‘deal’ making people think it is a FTA. Notice they never refer to it as a FTA only as a ‘deal’.

      As we were already members of the Association Agreement and comply with all EU law and regulations it was this that Johnson referred to as a deal being oven ready. Think about it.

  39. Mike Durrans
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Britain must never bow to these bullies, my father fought and died for the defence of Britain and I (although now old ) will also fight for British sovereignty ,

    GOD SAVE OUR QUEEN

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      Indeed – God bless’ er.

  40. ian@Barkham
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    The only deal the UK people voted on was the one were we left the EU, removed all EU Controls, Laws and Rules. I other words the UK became an independent democratic Country.

    The UK Government such as it is already splitting NI away from the UK

    Any agreements with foreign powers that affect how the UK works, its laws, its rules and so on, if it cant be amended, changed or repealed(and so on) by our own parliament without consultation with other powers has no place in a Democracy. – that is simply at every level rule by the unaccountable.

    The real freedom is having a full coherent democracy. We may not like what we get, but we stand a chance of removing and replacing those that work against the interest of the people of the UK

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

      The fact that the UK has left has proven that Leave’s Project Fear on all those points was completely hollow.

  41. beresford
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Three weeks from the end of the transition period and we are told that the outrageous demands of the EU are irreconcilable, and yet the ‘talks’ go on for another two days here and three days there. Boris is leaving businesses no time to adapt to a WTO exit. Meanwhile not only the EU is sensing weakness, the Remoaners are coming back out of the woodwork inside and outside Parliament. I stand by my forecast that Boris is about to try to bounce another extension past the Commons.

  42. ian@Barkham
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    MsM devilment!

    Britons will be precluded from travelling to EU countries in the new year when the Brexit transition period ends.

    Read deeper, it has nothing to do with Brexit – Its ‘only’ about the rise in UK Covid-19 infections. It is not tied to Brexit in any way shape or form

    Miss-information by remoaners

  43. None of the Above
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Well Said Sir John, I look forward to the PM on Sunday, announcing ‘No Deal’ from 31st December.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

      Well my friend you are going to be disappointed.

  44. Jack Falstaff
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    So fishing is only a small part of our GDP and doesn’t matter, does it?

    Therefore it would be fine if we handed them Folkestone, would it?

    It’s the principle.

    • glen cullen
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:48 am | Permalink

      It was also a bigger part of GDP in 1974

    • Old Salt
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:51 am | Permalink

      JF
      Are you not aware that our once very important great fishing industry has over the decades has been decimated and raped by the EU.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        viz …the empty Med.

      • Jack Falstaff
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

        Yes, I was only too keenly aware and you are absolutely right.
        Your specific historical point and my general point of principle lend each other weight and with that I think we rest our case Sir.

    • Sea_Warrior
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      It would solve much of the cross-Channel dinghyist problem, wouldn’t it?

      • glen cullen
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

        Its not a problem, its an ongoing scenario which our Home Office is observing

    • Missing EU already
      Posted December 12, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

      Have you been to Folkestone recently?

  45. Richard416
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    Why carry on talking. There is no point.

  46. ian@Barkham
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    About to be taken out of context here in the UK

    America’s busiest port runs out of room as global shipping chaos mounts
    Clogged ports have left US retailers with empty shelves and farmers with rotting vegetables that should be on their way to Asia

    A similar situation has arisen in the UK as well as World Wide. Honda to lay off workers due to shortage of parts, UK ports are swamped. BUT it is nothing to do with Brexit Although the UK media have already started to suggest that

    The World including Los Angeles as reported above are just playing catch up. UK goods do not come through the Western US

  47. formula57
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    The British people have been badly let down by the political class over resolving Brexit.

    Your advice from years ago that we leave when we say we leave (so no notice periods) and we do not pay to trade ought to have been heeded, clearly.

    The Evil Empire does not act in good faith, it is not a friendly power. Will the political class wake up to that at least?

    • Mark B
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

      Not let down. Betrayed !

  48. Jack Falstaff
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    So Bore-us Johnson frivously has a jolly in Brussels at great expense to the taxpayer.

    We want our money back.

    If the [insert Aristophanes play] want to talk fishing, they can give us Calais back, as it’s only a small part of their GDP.

    I’m sure it will be okay with them, because they’re not known for either complaining or underestimating their actual importance.

    • Jack Falstaff
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:27 am | Permalink

      frivolously, rather

  49. villaking
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Sir John, it looks as if your wish for an abrupt no-deal outcome will be fulfilled. This will be the moment of truth. Will it cause disruption or not? For my company, this means extra tariffs on what we export to the EU which our EU customers have told us they want us to absorb. It means extra tariffs on raw materials we import from the EU unless the published tariff schedule is changed. Our freight forwarder has emailed us today telling us there is already congestion at several ports and an expected large shipment of a key raw material will be delayed as a consequence. It’s not sounding good at the moment. Will you support taxpayer grants for manufacturing businesses that suffer as a direct consequence of a no-deal Brexit?

    • NickC
      Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:39 am | Permalink

      Villaking, The congestion at ports is global, and nothing to do with Brexit, which hasn’t happened yet, and for which we don’t even know what agreement will be in place. That won’t stop Remains like you blaming it on all Brexit though, will it? As for tariffs, you’ve already gained more by the Pound weakening compared to the Euro.

  50. ChrisS
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Boris should have called a halt last evening or allow Frost and Barnier to spend just one further day to explore the possibility of a workable arrangement. To spend more than a day would mean simply going round in circles restating the same red lines over and over.

    At this stage I would put the odds of a “No Deal” outcome at 95%.
    Sadly this is what I have expected since 2016. It has been a tragic waste of time and effort and has cost us £45Bn in extra contributions to the EU budget to achieve precisely nothing.

    That money is slightly more than we were led to believe was to be the exit bill. ( The UK Treasury’s figure ). As Barnier has repeatedly said that nothing is agreed until everything agreed and there now isn’t going to be a free trade agreement as was stated to be the aim in the withdrawal agreement, we should pay them nothing more. Not one penny.

    • ChrisS
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:56 am | Permalink

      PS
      When it comes to the discussions on money, which the EU will want to start any day after Sunday, Boris should wheel out the young, unnamed civil servant that astonished the EU negotiators when he went through their financial demands line by line and demolished each and every one of them.

  51. Fernando Ferreira
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Dear Sir John,

    After the EU left the world-beating UK Single Market and Customs Union, we all are seeing live how His Majesty’s Boris is blundering over this last-ditch opportunity to finally die in a ditch, as he promised “urbi et orbi” in September 2019.
    New news on this by next Sunday afternoon. Don’t miss it!!

    Respectfuly,

    Fernando Ferreira

  52. S Smith
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    I am offering you a £10 note for £2. You could accept this oven ready deal but you could also say: No I’ll only accept a Euro 20 note for Euro 1. A deal is straightforward with normal parties who have had a close partnership for 40 years but the EU’s only aim is to punish Pour encourager les autres.

    • Fernando Ferreira
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

      Dear S. Smith,

      “Pour encourager les autres” You certainly mean the Scottish, the Welsh, the Northern Irish, the Northern English and, thinking of HRH Prince Charles Phillip Arthur George Windsor, perhaps also the Cornish…
      … Just for leveling-up sake!!

      Yours truly,

      Fernando Ferreira

      • NickC
        Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:48 am | Permalink

        Fernando, No, I don’t think he does. All of the UK will benefit from leaving the sclerotic vindictive EU empire.

        • bill brown
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:49 am | Permalink

          NickC

          it is not and empire and it is not vindictive. But you are so clsoed up in your fixations that they will never change

        • Fernando Ferreira
          Posted December 11, 2020 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

          Dear NickC,

          So enjoy your One-and-Only Tory Nation UK as much as you can: that is, just until next May 2021, when the Holyrood Election and the NI Census results will be known…
          Seems to me that all the Brexiteer’s cheering lot will rue next January.
          Just saying,

          Yours truly,

          Fernando Ferreira

  53. Heavensabove
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Negotiations would be complex anyhow but in this case much more so because there is little trust so everything has to be tied down in legal text. I wo der why there is so little trust?

  54. Blazes
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    JR Still looking for that bespoke deal but it’s not going to happen. Instead Exporters Importers are now going to have to go to using containers and because Felixstowe and other container ports in the south are already choc a bloc I can see the hauliers driving the goods north to ports not so busy- Dover Calais will be largely closed off the French will see to that- so in the end we’ll have no need for the lorry parks but it’ll be the end of JIT

  55. Sea_Warrior
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    O/T but should the government be holding a hugely-expensive census when it has no money and the year (2021) is atypical?

  56. a-tracy
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Ursula von der Leyen “We are willing to grant access to the single market to our British friends, it’s the largest single market in the world. But the conditions have to be fair. They have to be fair for our workers and for our companies and this balance of fairness has not been achieved so far.” Express

    What is it precisely that is “unfair” that she speaks of?

  57. Wokinghamite
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    It seems most unlikely that we will agree to be bound by EU laws and controls, especially after the P.M.’s remarks at P.M.’s Q.T. on Wednesday.

  58. Edwardm
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Succinct.
    Now can we get the EU out of NI, and stop paying Danegeld to it. No more ECJ and no more EAW, no more non-reciprocity. If in doubt, ask the British people.
    The proposed arrangements in NI are against the interests and integrity of the UK. Why has the UK government caved in to the EU, when it could so easily have an electronic border. Or another balanced solution could be for UK and EU goods to enter Ireland (N and S) tariff free, and tariffs only become payable when UK goods get re-exported to rest of EU and vice-versa (but allow Eire reciprocal free access to all UK).

  59. glen cullen
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    I actually heard a Tory MP tonight on Sky News saying that if we don’t get a deal with the EU there will be lots of jobs lost….after 4.5yrs we still have Tory MPs spreading fear – unbelievable

    • glen cullen
      Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

      I thought all Tory MPs where hand-picked at last election, only selecting the one’s that supported the referendum result and leaving the EU

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

        I agree thats what they told us Glen. Farage stood people down on this promise.

  60. ukretired123
    Posted December 10, 2020 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Glad to hear Andrew Neil saying no British PM could sign up to the EU equivalence where they can be punitive to Britain in future of we fail in their eyes……
    At last he can speak freely out of the MSM esp BBC who “lionise the EU” without critical debate.

  61. Christine Marland
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Good. Thank you for saying again – no deal is better than a bad deal. We should not surrender our independence and sovereignty.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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