Listening to the two Opposition day debates yesterday led by the SNP I was struck by the endless contradictions and negativity.
Here is a party which says it wants a referendum that spends most of its energy complaining about the two big referendums it lost recently. It only likes referendums if it wins. Otherwise it is undemocratic, denying their result.
Here is a party which says it wants an independent Scotland. Its idea of independence is to seek to rejoin the EU and not create its own currency or independent money policy.
Here is a party which says leaving the single market of the EU is damaging but leaving the U.K. single market which accounts for four times the trade the EU handles with Scotland would be fine.
Here is a party which complains about the loss of the EU Erasmus scheme whilst failing to accept that the U.K. replacement, the Turing Scheme, will help more U.K. students.
March 18, 2021
Interesting and well put Sir JR
Would you care to comment on Liberty Steel , Eurostar and the Cumbrian mine please ?
March 18, 2021
@David Peddy; Indeed, both Liberty Steel and the Cumbrian mine both cut to the core of what our host talked about yesterday, and as far as steel is concerned, not very often I find myself in agreement with a Miliband brother!
As for Eurostar, I believe it is a 55% (State [1]) owned French company, with most of the other 45% owned by non British investment funds. I’m sure President Macron and the French Parliament will do what ever is necessary.
[1] the SNCF, who hold the 55%, is State owned
March 18, 2021
Here is a party dedicated to a hate of England, for whom no contradiction or lie is great enough if it serves the purpose of leaving the Union. I find them a despicable rabble. If the scottish people are daft enough to buy into the nonesense the spout, which I doubt, then on financial grounds alone we are well rid of them.
March 18, 2021
PS.
You should have been listening to Dominic Cummings for positive enlightenment.
March 18, 2021
Just give them the referendum then if they win it we can have a big party celebrating there departure from the U.K. , then build a bloody big wall between us to stop them feeling into England when it all goes terrible wrong which it would
March 18, 2021
Why bother with a referendum? Just tell Scotland it is on its bike, fully justified by the SNP winning the MSP vote . As for the wall, Scotland should pay for it of course.
March 18, 2021
I’m someone who married into a half-Scottish family, and who has many fine Scottish friends. I have always found it odd that a people who are generally bright and clever, and whose hard work and brains have enriched other parts of the world, should always find it so difficult to come to terms with each other over tribal and religious conflicts, and with their closest neighbours the English. And despite every bit of historical evidence that the French don’t keep their promises to Scotland, they still believe that partnership with parts of Europe will bring them to the Promised Land.
March 18, 2021
See also: Brexit.
March 18, 2021
@ Andy – would that be the Brexit that more voters in Scotland voted in favour of than have ever voted for the SNP?
March 18, 2021
the very same one !
March 18, 2021
A big complaint I have about the Brexit vote is that there was no plan as to how a leave decision would be implemented. The following day David Cameron resigned, refusing to take responsibility for implementing the decision he offered.
I have the same complaint about another Scottish independence referendum. Where is the plan?
March 18, 2021
It was indeed gross dereliction of duty by David Cameron and the civil service not to have prepared for a Brexit result indeed for both outcomes. He then pathetically abandoned ship like a spoiled child.
March 18, 2021
not like – replace with is.
March 18, 2021
Would you like someone to knock on your door and present you with a draft, tied with ribbon?
If you read what the SNP say then you will see that they are very circumspect about what the result would mean for exactly the reasons that you imply.
It would be the start, not the end, of democratic discussions about a new relationship.
It’s easily found – try looking.
March 18, 2021
MiC
“It would be the start, not the end, of democratic discussions about a new relationship.”
But why would we want a relationship with hate-filled sectarians ?
March 18, 2021
The SNP published hundreds of pages before the 2014 explaining what independence would look like. You can disagree with the principle but they did at least set out a fairly comprehensive plan.
Contrast to the Brexitists who only had a three word slogan and a false sentence on the side of a bus.
March 18, 2021
Really? I kept hearing the question ‘what currency will an Independent Scotland use?’ and never heard anyone from the SNP answer it. And ‘how will you deal with your deficit without the Barnett formula giving you higher public spending per capita than in the UK?’ and, again, answer came there none.
I wonder what they did have in their ‘hundreds of pages’?
March 18, 2021
and when you get Independence and the Civil Service jobs go south, followed by all military bases, shipbuilding, and a serious loss of tourism and whisky purchases?
How is the oil revenue going? – and what happens when England choose to buy from elsewhere?
March 19, 2021
The plan seems to consist mostly of heroic assumptions as to what the rest of the UK and the EU should agree to for the sake of Scotland’s immediate economic survival, future prosperity and general welfare. It is essentially a wish list.
March 18, 2021
After a bit of trawling I have discovered the outline plan for implementing the result of the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence, contained in this document which was itself of questionable legal value:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/text-edinburgh-agreement-8212225.html
The sum total of the plan was that everybody would “respect” the result.
As far as the 2016 EU referendum was concerned, from December 2015:
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2015/12/23/bse-seeks-endorsements-by-the-people-who-get-it-wrong/#comment-794475
“I have to point out yet again that the EU referendum Act is silent on what would ensue from a vote to leave the EU. JR assures us that if we vote to leave the EU then we will leave the EU, but that still leaves unanswered the question of why the Act does not say that when it could have done.”
I see “jerry” there at the time responding “O stop talking utter nonsense”, but as it turned out the Supreme Court later agreed with the Remoaners that this was a crucial omission and decreed that Parliament would have to pass another Act before the government could put in the Article 50 notice:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/9/contents/enacted
I cannot say whether David Cameron deliberately built this defect into the referendum Act.
March 18, 2021
@Dave Andrews; “The following day David Cameron resigned, refusing to take responsibility for implementing the decision he offered [with regards the referendum].”
Err, David Cameron wanted to remain in the EU, he lost, he was in no place to implement what he offered! Your need to aim your erk at others…
As for iScotland, no one south of the border is offering another referendum, no one north of the border is in any position to offer one and then act upon the result.
March 18, 2021
We only got the referendum because Cameron thought he could win it. No wonder he had no plan for post Brexit Britain. We should have been free years ago, but instead are saddled with Boris’ unworkable WA.
March 18, 2021
David J
“We should have been free years ago, but instead are saddled with Borisâ unworkable WA.”
………much as I dislike and distrust the bloke, to be fair the WA wasnt boris’s doing. It was Theresa May.
That said, Boris should have had the guts to rip the damn thing up.
March 18, 2021
The SNP accepts it lost two referendums. It wants another one, because Brexit has transformed the UK. That’s democratic. It’s you refusing to allow the people of Scotland to speak who is undemocratic
March 18, 2021
@ Polly Smith – If indeed “Brexit has transformed the UK” then it must have transformed the Evil Empire too. Whether such transformation is material in either case may be doubted but it is not really germane to the question.
In the 2014 referendum on Scotland’s future, had a “Yes” vote not been rejected, Scotland would have exited the Evil Empire when it exited the Union. It is, therefore, by no means clear how being pro-separatist at home is also pro-continuing in the Evil Empire. (Granted Scotland could, were it ever eventually to satisfy joining conditions, apply to join but acceptance could not and cannot be assumed.)
The “No” vote that occurred was cast when the UK Government was promising a future UK-wide referendum on membership of the Evil Empire: clearly there could be no guarantee or even indication of which way that vote would go or whether Scots voters’ preference would match the majority in the Union. Accordingly, Scots voting “No” in 2014 had to take account of the plans of the Union they chose to remain part of and it was implicit that they would then be bound by the collective will of its citizens of which they comprised a part. There were no future Scottish opts out on offer nor ever mooted, nor for anyone else.
The SNP will always want a new referendum until one produced the result that suits them. They have nothing else to offer after all and no other purpose.
March 18, 2021
@Polly Smith
Indeed. It is very reminiscent of Brexit. The people want a referendum in Scotland but the politicians won’t let them have one. Just like Brexit. It seems politicians don’t like what the people think. Unless, of course, they happen to agree with them. Doesn’t happen often.
March 18, 2021
The SNP’s desire for independence is based simply on hate for the English. They still believe they are the victorious forces at Bannockburn 1314 and should be free of the (non-existent) shackles of English rule.
Let them go, their ingratitude for the endless English taxes they spend on themselves shows them for what they are.
The UK is broken thanks to Blair’s Devolution which of course excluded England. English independence now!
March 18, 2021
+ 1 Well said.
March 18, 2021
If that is true, it seems fair enough to me.
March 18, 2021
The Scots understand independence. Itâs about cooperating with like minded neighbours in the EU. You donât understand independence. You think London can tell the rest of the world how itâs gonna be. But your Empire is long gone. Time you realised
March 18, 2021
Len
Give us examples of “London telling the rest of the world how its gonna be”
Or did you just make that up?
March 18, 2021
What a shame that in a paragraph you set out the case against independence better than apparently the Tories in Scotland.
And in the meantime you have allowed them to freeze their council tax using our money whilst my local council raises its tax by umpteen times inflation to nearly 5%. And guess what, my MP claiming that he is our voice in Westminster says nothing.
Still sitting on his hands hoping for a job.
March 18, 2021
And use our taxes so their kids get free tuition fees that the Tories are only too happy to lumber Englandâs young with. Theyâre a waste of space. Their beloved union first, Scotland second, Wales & NI third, England last. The only thing England gets out of this relationship is the bill thanks to the anti-English UK parties, Tories included.
March 18, 2021
6.08% increase for the council tax on a C band house in the Wokingham district.
I should not complain: our black sturdy plastic recycling crates are been replaced by green softer plastic recycling bags … and we are allowed to keep the black crates for the garden (if we wish).
March 18, 2021
what about the additional cost to save cardboard from sometimes getting damp?
Critical decision making – thats why we need the Council jobs.
March 18, 2021
The Scottish people will eventually wake up and realise that all of this so called independent nonsense is exactly that, absolute nonsense from a party that is always trying to use any excuse to cover up their own failings.
Have to say Queen Nicola has done a great job so far with her communication, but unfortunately people are beginning to wise up to the facts, as usual follow the money and you will see that at present England are paying, and the alternative future with the EU would mean Scotland will be paying.
March 18, 2021
You can snipe as much as you like John.
You are about the last person to whom the good folk of Scotland will pay any attention.
I seem to recall that you didn’t much like the 1975 referendum, which the pro-Europeans won by over two-to-one too.
Reply No I did not like the result but I accepted it and lived with it for more than a generation before demanding a new vote because the Treaties had been massively changed. .
March 19, 2021
Yes, the Treaties had been developed exactly as the pamphlet sent to every electoral address during the 1975 campaign expressly stated that people could expect them to be with progress.
Yet you claimed that no one could have foreseen these developments, and that people were “misled”.
March 18, 2021
Please, let them be gone.
March 18, 2021
In fairness to David Cameron, Dave Andrew, he never even thought that we might vote to leave, so it was no surprise that there was no central government plan to exit the EU. The mistake he made was to ”chicken out” and resign, when he should have stayed and followed through on the result suppressing the Remainer revolt.
Alec Salmond’s plan was based on North Sea oil and he and his supporters were lucky to lose. This time, it seems that the SNP is totally bereft of any financial acumen and should, and no doubt will be denied a 2nd referendum, to save them from disaster. If it was allowed to happen the debt would fall on the rest of the UK impeding our progress, and we can do without that.
March 18, 2021
There is little to be positive about. Stuck here on Plague Island, ruled over by a corrupt, incompetent, extremist government – which seeks to ban people who are âannoyingâ.
I wish Scotland well on her independence journey. I hope she spares a thought for the millions of us stranded in xenophobic Little England.
March 18, 2021
Still here, Andy? I thought youâd have left this xenophobic âPlague Islandâ by now and put in your claim for asylum in your beloved EUtopia. Whatâs holding you back? Waiting for your vaccinations first?
March 18, 2021
Why not leave? Why are you stranded? Your children, if you have any, will have a much better life in the EU.
March 18, 2021
Get across the border then man. EU fans are welcome there. Don’t let them hear your English accent though.
March 18, 2021
another poor soul kept against his will. My heart bleeds for you.
March 18, 2021
The SNP are irrational as outlined above – but I feel one main reasons why they prefer to join the EU is down to their socialist mindset which is closer to that of the EU who run on dogma rather than logic.
The other reason of course is that the SNP imagine the EU would be more generous in keeping them in the style they would like to be kept in. They see small countries getting lots of money to improve infrastructure, and want some of that, no matter the cost to their alleged independence.
What they are really after is a sugar daddy.
March 18, 2021
Why oh why didn’t we let her join the EU vaccine scheme?
March 18, 2021
You can be sure that no matter what aggression is shown toward England and the English by the Scots, and no matter what criticism is made of them it is just empty talk. This Tory Unionist party, its members and government will continue to bend before them and grant their demands.
Tories don’t care about England for itself, only so far as it can be used to keep the UK union intact. We know the leadership cares nothing about the identity of England as it continues to encourage its social and democratic break-up.
March 18, 2021
+ 1 The Tories are no friend of England. The surprising thing is why we keep voting for them.
March 18, 2021
It’s only because the Labour party are the enemies of England. Along with the Lib-Dems and Greens.
March 18, 2021
+1
March 18, 2021
In some ways I think its a shame that the Conservative Party has Unionist in its title. What ever happens the SNP will nag on and on – lets just agree to them having a vote and fix a transition period ending say 01/01/22
and then sit back and watch the panic.
March 18, 2021
The pareto principle 80/20 applies where 80% of problems come from just 20% of causes but is magnified out of all proportion by the SNP.
No credit is ever heard from them to anyone South of the border.
The benefit of the old law of diminishing returns applies to the vaccine for CV19 – any vaccine is better than nothing just like money when you haven’t got any. Boris took the right decision to give at least one jab (free as well!) to as many as possible. Meanwhile the EU get jealous and poo-poo UK progress. Scotland is part of that progress which they profess to hate.
March 18, 2021
In the case of Downing St. it would be more like 95/5.
March 18, 2021
Does the Turing Scheme include placements in some European countries that some UK students want to go to and visa versa for EU students to swap into British institutions? If not the Universities will rally until this is allowed.
Up to now, the English taxpayer seems to pay subsidies for Scottish Universities to offer lots of places for European students to study in Scotland for just ÂŁ1500 per annum (and many on full scholarship) those that were charged were eligible for tuition fee support from the Student Awards Agency for Scotland (SAAS) whilst they charge the majority of English students over ÂŁ9000 per year.
March 18, 2021
There is more than one thing going on here. The SNP is basically the radical left as such they pile into anything to pull structures down.
The real situation stems from we have had the talking shop that is the Palace of Westminster that for the last 40 years has had the notion of National Government drained from them. So much so they have felt the need to take on the roll played by what would normally be played a local council. Now we have people in parliament that are frightened of themselves and the people. The result they feel the need to micro manage every minutiae of society on a one size fits all basis. This leaves the Country with dictating controlling center that is in effect paralyzed once outside of the ‘metro’ minded state.
We left the EU to take control, not to then have more control imposed just as remotely. The Scots outside of the noisy SNP can all do a better job of managing themselves than being dictated to by Westminster. In fact Strathclyde can do better than having Edinburgh ruling over them.
It is the devolution project that has failed the people, it didn’t go far enough and still relies on a remote central controlling dictate by those that are not close enough to carry through the needs of individual communities. So far it has been pandering to ego’s and creating prima donnas more than it has about effective democracy and action
March 18, 2021
It sounds from what you say, that if Scotland leaves the UK and succeeds in joining the EU, it will fit in very well with the organisation and the other member states.
I do not think that support for leaving the UK is based on any sort of logic or plan: just emotion and resentment of Englan.
March 18, 2021
Boris Johnson does not need to say “No” to a repeat Scottish referendum, he only has to say “Not yet” and even in Scotland most people should think it reasonable to wait and see how Brexit actually pans out.
March 18, 2021
The âendless contradictions and negativityâ exhibited by the SNP is because it is not independence they seek but separation from England.
The SNP believed this separation would work if the UK remained in the EU as they thought the Barnet Formula money would be replaced by EU money funded by England and that England would continue to keep HMRC jobs etc. in Scotland.
Hence the SNPâs desire for the UK to remain in the EU and their upset that the UK voted to leave.
March 19, 2021
EXACTLY !!!
March 18, 2021
If the UK government should grant the SNP a second referendum, then the SNP should not be allowed to extend the franchise to all nationalities nor be allowed again to refuse the votes of 795,000 Scottish ex-pats who are living elsewhere in the UK.
March 18, 2021
Let them go John. The more you plead and bribe them with English taxpayers money the more they demand and the more resentment grows not just in Scotland where it will never be enough to free them from their hatred of England but more importantly in England because whilst constantly pandering to the Scots, your party, there by the grace of England alone, continues to ignore the rotten deal England gets from this union post devolution. Denied a national voice, denied any representation at national level and still denied a parliament. Not even allowed a mention, the E word must be avoided at all costs. Where are our new powers that Johnson promises to everyone else in the UK except England? We donât even enjoy the powers they already have. I personally wish the Scots would go and I know many who now feel the same as it is now blatantly obvious that the only way England will get any of the above is if Scotland goes not that your party are remotely interested in the views of we English John, except at election time of course.
I see Johnson, despite the dire straights we are in money wise, has plans to splash billions of pounds on a new bridge from NI to Scotland. Will we English see any Barnett consequentials from it? Thought not!
Nice to see the new anti-terrorism laws for England and Wales to curb our freedoms even more is going through with the help of Scots & NI MPs. When are any of you going to complain about that? Forget Scotland for once and start concentrating on England for a change.
March 19, 2021
Jools
It’s India all over again for the political class and the Establishment* – They’re in denial over the inevitable. The Scots want out. The English want them gone. Both think they would be better without the other. The only thing keeping them together are the kids*.
March 19, 2021
Good post Jules. Regarding this bridge. If it’s built using our money will we be charged an extortionate amount to use it when they become an independent nation? Surely it would be better to start the bridge off the coast of Cumbria if we have to have one at all. Stop giving them things which we will all be paying for in years to come.
March 18, 2021
Unfortunately there was no referendum for the people in 1707 so could be what we have now is unfinished business. Consider when things had almost settled down with both nations in the EU the darndest thing happened – the English Tories under Cameron decided to have a referendum on EU membership and started it all up again that’s when the largely English vote decided to drag the rest of us out which changed the equilibrium ? Therefore I can well understand the Scots unhappiness and discontent at being messed about- so in the interest of fairness and democracy better give them the vote they want- there’s no point in holding people where they don’t want to be
March 18, 2021
These arguments within Scotland and primarily against England have been allowed to fester for too long. For goodness sake give them their bloody referendum and let’s see the back of them. My only concern is that an English government will give them too much on departure and not make the necessary arrangements for a wall to be erected and financed by them, nuclear subs out, troops out, and privision for oil to be offloaded into an English port. I am sick to the back teeth of hearing that woman harping on together with the rest of the disrespectful rabble.
March 18, 2021
Well said Fedupsoutherner. Hopefully an English Parliament would consist of none of the current incumbents squatting in English seats and would put England first and foremost for a change and stand up for England unlike now and tell the Scots to stick their haggis where the sun donât shine.
March 18, 2021
F U S
Well said. The SNP have been extracting the urine for far too long.
We need a strong government that will stand up to them. But that ain’t going to happen. Sad for the real Scots but the venom and hate thrown at us on a daily basis by the SNP is never going to stop, just get rid of them and give them nothing in return.
March 18, 2021
The Scottish parliament seems to make a mess of everything they touch. Many people vote SNP not because they want to leave the Union but because they see having their own dedicated party as beneficial to getting more money out of the UK taxpayer. If the SNP couldnât win independence when they had the oil revenue then I doubt very much they could win now.
I get tired of seeing Sturgeon in the media with her nasty anti-UK views. We are one people on this small island and many of us have family and ancestors with Scottish blood. I donât want us to split apart. We are currently in dire times and we need to fight together to rebuild our country not squabble between ourselves like unruly children. The Scottish people need to look at their perceived grievances and ask themselves what independence from the UK and shackling themselves to the EU would give them.
Itâs good to see Reform UK putting candidates forward for the next election. Maybe this will give the Scots a credible option rather than the current rabble they have to vote for.
March 18, 2021
Questions that I would like to hear the SNP answer:
If there was a second referendum would you expect the result to be honoured? If “Yes” then why did you try and undermine the BREXIT referendum result?
If the SNP won a second referendum, would they countenance a no-deal exit from the UK? If “Yes”, then why did they work to remove restrict the UK government from a carrying out a No-Deal exit?
Is “no-deal” better than a bad deal?
Would they accept a “confirmatory referendum” ( a Peoples Vote ) once the terms of Scotlands exit had been negotiated and people knew what they had voted for?
Does a vote to leave the UK automatically lead to rejoining the EU? Or would they need to hold a future referendum on joining the EU?
Would they be happy for Brussels to negotiate the England/Scotland border deal on their behalf?
If you get the chance to ask them John ….
March 18, 2021
It seems almost unbelievable that Sturgeon might survive her present problems, especially after David Davis read out more damning evidence in the House of Commons. Yet, the SNP is still getting almost 50% support across Scotland !
The debates initiated by the SNP yesterday achieved precisely nothing and we saw no clarification of their intentions over currency or anything else, for that matter. Blackford was deeply unimpressive, as usual.
How typical of the SNP to deliberately muddy the waters on all fronts.
March 18, 2021
The only sensible course of action is to reverse Blair’s stupid devolution and return to a truly United Kingdom. We may be sure that an independent Scotland, or any other part of the UK which may like separation, will be allowed EU membership just to cause us problems. The present situation with Northern Ireland is bad enough so why would we want more such issues?
March 18, 2021
It is perfectly true that the SNP “plan” is a dishonest mess of contradictions, but as General Giap said “true but irrelevant”.
Independent or not, we in the rest of the UK have to live beside Scotland, and what we have to figure out is just *why* so many Scots support a party that is intellectually bankrupt and increasingly obviously corrupt.
What is it about independence, and what it says about the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK that is so attractive to Scots that they are prepared to ignore the borderline criminal behaviour that is going on today and which would certainly continue in an SNP-governed Scotland?
When a majority of Scots support a party like the SNP, you can’t just say “They’re daft” and leave it at that. You have to ask by what path history got us to this point.
March 18, 2021
Westminster never seem to want to highlight all the failures of the SNP . They can slag us off get more money and still you role over and give them more. The areas that they have failed the Scottish people are numerous and yet they still get voted in.. Get rid of them, give them what the EU gave us. Three fifths of naff all. Pull everything of value that the rest of us taxpayers have paid for. With all the internal fighting within the SNP you would think they would be burnt toast. You couldn’t play hard ball with the EU for crying out loud dont make the same mistake with these ungrateful English hating SNP
March 18, 2021
+1
March 19, 2021
+2
March 18, 2021
The problem with Brexit it has enslaved us on this land just off mainland Europe. This is not freedom, I want to stay anywhere I want for as long as I want in any EU country.
To me the EU is about freedom of individuals to chose, its about people first living where ever they want to on the home lands of Europe.
We are now effectively cut off.
March 18, 2021
No, you were not cut off. At any time in the past four years you could have established residence in any EU country by filling in a form.
As it happens, three and a half million EU citizens chose to move to the UK while far fewer, maybe less than a million, mostly retirees, chose to move to the EU. But it was your choice. You decided to stay in the UK. No-one made you.
March 18, 2021
you had your chance and were warned for several years to go forth – and you didn’t.
March 19, 2021
Seems to me that this country is approaching meltdown. Apart from the SNP conundrum a large amount of English people cheered on by the gutter press have covid vaccinations pause for a few days by some individual european countries mixed up with something else and heap blame on the EU Comission when the problem is with the pharmaceutical company concerned who has fallen down on its contract part. We’d better get a grip if we are to survive this
March 19, 2021
For the time being, the most important thing that Unionist politicians can do is to spell out exactly what Scottish independence would entail. It’s not the cosy parasitic devomax that SNP have in mind but rather:
– No shared currency
– No shared monarchy
– No defence alliance
– No fiscal transfers
– A hard border to control immigration
Just make sure that seeps in into the minds of the Scottish electorate.