Is President Biden going wobbly on Ukraine?

There are suggestions that Presidents Biden and Macron would like to see a negotiated settlement with Russia over Ukraine. German Chancellor Scholz has been on a visit to China, Russia’s most important ally. I would be interested in your thoughts on how the Ukraine war might end and how it should end.

The government and people of Ukraine have been brave in resisting Russian aggression. They saw off an attempt to seize their capital and to replace their government, and they have made Russia fight hard for every mile of territory in the south east of the country that has become Russia’s more immediate target. The West has supplied weapons, training and some support, but has not committed forces of its own to the conflict. As Ukraine has fought on without allies in the field, it will be Ukraine who decide when and whether to hold talks with Russia. So far Ukraine has stated that she cannot negotiate all the time Russia is pushing ahead with  the invasion and lays claim to parts of the country.

The NATO allies will find it difficult to persuade Ukraine otherwise. Ukraine does depend heavily on western weapons and some other supplies. Were the West to restrict that  support all the time Ukraine wishes to defend her territory it would aid and encourage Putin.  It is probably Putin’s strategy to seek to split the NATO allies from Ukraine or to create divisions within NATO over the future. Any unwillingness to support the defence of a neighbouring country from invasion would  be seen as weakness by Russia and invites more incursions in more countries and provinces close to Russia’s borders.

182 Comments

  1. Tony Hart
    November 8, 2022

    I can’t understand why UN will not convict Putin and his cohorts of committing war crimes. Why are we not putting pressure on UN to do so. Wars must be stopped. They are a complete waste of resources. Who wants tanks?

    1. Pud
      November 8, 2022

      Perhaps because Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and would use its veto to stop any UN action against them.

      1. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        So kick them out ‘while Putin is the Leader’.

    2. Ian B
      November 8, 2022

      @Tony Hart, because as much as it offends Putin is the Democratically Elected head of a Sovereign Country and the UN is not a World authority on anything or a World Government body. The UN is just a talking shop for those without proper jobs.

      1. Lester_Cynic
        November 8, 2022

        Ian B

        100% correct

    3. SM
      November 8, 2022

      Tony Hart: you would perhaps understand if you look at which nations are the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council: China, France, the UK, the USA and … the Russian Federation. Then do some research on BRICS and also the influence of both China and Russia on much of sub-Saharan Africa, politically and economically.

    4. Mike Stallard
      November 8, 2022

      If the Russians invaded London through Kent, raping, pillaging and riding in antiquated tanks, do you honestly think you would say that? That is exactly what the Russians did with their 40 mile convoy targeting Kiev. Bullies need to be shown what a bloody nose looks like – or they will come for you!

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 8, 2022

        If Russia supplied the IRA with arms and ammunition and expertise to the value that we have supplied Ukraine, what would you think? It’s the same scenario – a civil war with one minority group being targeted and killed by an ‘army’ ie, ethnic Russians in Ukraine by the Criminal Ukrainian Army.

      2. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        The Baltic countries are getting twitchy since Russia’s recent military exercises.

    5. rose
      November 8, 2022

      The UN has been an anti Western organization for a long time now.

      1. Lester_Cynic
        November 8, 2022

        Ian B

        100% correct

    6. Sea_Warrior
      November 8, 2022

      I do! We need more tanks.

  2. Mark B
    November 8, 2022

    Good morning.

    I confess I have not been following this as I believe we have our own issues to deal with and the war in Ukraine is not the only war that is going on in the world (eg Yemen), so I see no need to offer it special attention.

    As I mentioned yesterday to someone else’s post, the U.S. is running out of diesel fuel to run is cars, lorry’s and trucks and, very importantly, heating for homes. This all ahead of the mid-term elections in a few days time. If indeed the U.S. runs out of diesel and other fuel oils this will cause a major crisis. China too is having energy supply issues after it no longer buys coal from Australia and, despite having huge reserves of coal of its own, cannot dig enough to supply all those coal fired power stations it is building.

    The loss of Nord-stream 2 pipe line and the dwindling reserves ahead of winter is a real concern for European leaders (sic), hitting industrial production and adding to economic woes.

    But never fear. Our new PM has a plan. He is going to build more windmills.

    From playing Pinocchio to Don Quixote, you have to admit, the boys got talent. It is just a shame it isn’t the kind of talent we need right now.

    1. Nottingham Lad Himself
      November 8, 2022

      It is the Republicans who cannot be relied upon to continue support for Ukraine.

      Eminent ones have said expressly that they would not do so.

      1. Bill B.
        November 9, 2022

        Very sensible of them. Throwing good money after bad is not the best policy.

  3. Lifelogic
    November 8, 2022

    “how the Ukraine war might end and how it should end”. I certainly do not know it is all hugely depressing. We can only hope for a change of direction in Moscow.

    1. Mike Stallard
      November 8, 2022

      It is winter now. As the rainy season morphs into winter and the roads freeze, warfare will no doubt resume. the Russian conscripts, in totally unsuitable clothes, without training, food or medical supplies will take to looting and more murder, no doubt to get indoors. The Ukrainians, with Western equipment will continue to kill them as they huddle. The hope is that Putin will be assassinated or that the Ukrainians will simply cut through to the Crimea.

      1. Lester_Cynic
        November 8, 2022

        Ian B

        100% correct

      2. R.Grange
        November 9, 2022

        Mike, sorry to disturb your media-inspired fantasy of what is happening in Ukraine, but just to point out: Russia is not using conscripts in this conflict. She is using regular contract soldiers and reservists. Unlike the Ukrainians, they have been well provided with winter clothing.

    2. Hope
      November 8, 2022

      LL,

      Negotiate or wither on the vine. Tory party and govt has allowed military to be under EU control on joint operations!

      Tory party and govt gave N.Ireland away without a cross word. Arlene Forster claims even EU representatives were surprised by UK agreed to the protocol!

      Sunak currently caving in to more EU protocol demands, becoming more dependent on EU energy! He was chancellor when threats and actions against our country were taken by EU ie stopped vaccines and PPE, threatened electricity supply to Jersey, stopped lorries getting food from EU- lorries backed up Dover until Johnson locked down the country!

  4. turboterrier
    November 8, 2022

    The problem today has not changed from where it all started all those months ago. If Russia is not firmly put in its place and its people see that nothing has been gained from out of this war, for that is what it is, that thousands of it’s men have died in vain for no glory then it will only be a question of time before the whole process will start up again with a different neighbour. The big mistake was to sit back and give Putin the belief that the world would sit back and do nothing as it did in 2014 over the annexing of Crimea and the internal politics of a lot of other countries gave the perception that they would do nothing as their leadership was frail and too focused on other areas and were running down their own military capabilities.
    Russia’s political power base is slowly imploding and more and more of its people are seeing the true picture and will want change. This whole incursion could well impact on the physical make up of how Russia is structured at the present time.
    As with all wars when the body bags start mounting up and the thousands of men are crippled for life the people want to know why and what have their sons and husbands have died and suffered for. We in the UK ask ourselves every Remembrance Day and question the futility of these incursions.

  5. Wanderer
    November 8, 2022

    The Elon Musk solution would do. Essentially the Russian bits of the country stay with Russia, as it appears they want to. But also no NATO expansion. Ignore the nut cases in Washington that want to destroy Putin at our and everyone else’s cost. Don’t forment coups in foreign democracies.

    ” Ukraine has fought on without allies in the field, it will be Ukraine who decide when and whether to hold talks with Russia”. Are you sure? Special forces? Boris Johnson visit to Ukraine when they were supposedly going to do a peace deal?

    Non communist Russia is not an existential threat to the west in my view. We need to get back to looking after ourselves, which includes buying Russian energy.

    We should also work out a package of rebuilding funds for Ukraine, in return for them taking their refugees back. Washington should pay the brunt of this…we can’t because the government here has bankrupted us.

    1. Cuibono
      November 8, 2022

      YES!
      Sanity!!

    2. Stred
      November 8, 2022

      The nationalist forces in Ukraine have been attacking the ethnic Russian speaking population since the 2014 coup and even banned the non Ukrainian languages from schools. They planned to attack the breakaway provinces this year and built up forces in the area. Putin made a mistake in assuming that there were parts of the Ukrainian army that were not nationalist and would support the removal of these elements. However, the USA and UK had trained and armed the nationalists and the war has now resulted in the destruction of much of the country and the sabotage of any possible resumption of cheap non LNG gas supplies to Europe. Next year businesses will not be able to afford energy bills. They are already closing and moving abroad. The civil war between oligarchs competing for the resources and backed by neocons in Washington has turned into a disaster. They should have been pressuring the Ukranians to make peace with the Russian breakaway areas and run legitimate referendums. Musk is right.

    3. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      Spot on. But too late. That was the Minsk Agreement which was breached by Ukraine, France and Germany! Russia will now proceed to victory and impose the settlement.

      1. B.Potter
        November 8, 2022

        Correct, but then for almost 2 decades Putin sought some sort of reasonable and fair resolution with the West, but was constantly rebuffed by the neocons in the USA with the active support of the UK and others in Europe. Now, as we in the West face a cold and expensive winter and the Ukraine faces God knows what, we are reaping what we have sown. It all makes me sick to the stomach that so few here recognise these basic facts, but continue to urge continued support for this unecessary and brutal war rather than demand immediate talks to end it.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          They thought there was no price, just as they think taking in ‘asylum seekers’ has no cost. Well this winter there will be a wake up call and it’s dawning on the military in the USA at least, that Russia, the commodities giant of the world, and China, the manufacturing giant of the world, have the infrastructure to outgun NATO. They have already outgunned the decadent and deluded west economically.
          That’s why The Biden Whitehouse is about to throw Elensky under the bus and make him sue for peace before it dawns on the deluded that we, the West, has been beaten!

    4. Ian B
      November 8, 2022

      @Wanderer, There are no Russian bits of the Ukraine. There are bits however that Russia has forcibly taken against the Democratic wishes of the Ukraine people and with the added contrivance of the EU
      What you would be condoning is that anyone anywhere can take what they want by force and not with agreement of the people

      1. R.Grange
        November 8, 2022

        Ian, there are Russian-speaking parts of the Ukraine that recently voted in a referendum to join the Russian Federation.

        You may not like that, but I thought this was a web site where people tended to respect referendum results.

      2. Wanderer
        November 8, 2022

        The Musk plan called for internationally monitored referendums in the rebel parts of Ukraine, so the people could decide if they wanted to be part of the post-coup Ukraine, or Putin’s Russian Federation.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          Run by the USA with its electoral machines – recent broken down in all Republican areas – again! 😂😂 yes good idea. That’s the way to win!

      3. Shirley M
        November 8, 2022

        Agreed. Move lots of people who are the same nationality as the neighbour into a city of a neighbouring country (by stealth), take over the politics of the city, and then claim it belongs to the neighbour. I fear the same would happen in the UK if we were not an island.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          The Russians in Donbas have been there centuries, the boundary moved! You know, like the boundary of Wales which now includes the 4th state in the Union, Monmouthshire! Another slick Heath move.

      4. Stred
        November 8, 2022

        There are bits of Ukraine occupied by Russian speaking Ukrainians. That’s why they objected to banning of their language and broke away. There are English speaking citizens of Scotland who would not wish English to be banned.

    5. James Freeman
      November 8, 2022

      Why don’t we buy the energy beneath our feet and get the tax revenue? The fracking ban (and other anti-business policies) have bankrupted the government.

      1. Jason Cartwright
        November 8, 2022

        Fracking will only start after we have rejoined the EU.

    6. rose
      November 8, 2022

      China is definitely a threat and will take her cue from what happens in the Ukraine.

    7. Peter
      November 8, 2022

      We have no strategic interest in the Ukraine and should not be involved in a conflict that could lead to the use of nuclear weapons.

      It is also a huge financial burden on the UK.
      Russia feels threatened by advances close to its border. The West never intervened in the Hungarian uprising in the 1950s, or the uprising in Czechoslovakia in the 1960s.

      I am against proxy wars by neocons.
      They have already destroyed the Middle East for regime change.

      1. mickc
        November 8, 2022

        Yes…absolutely right!

    8. Mockbeggar
      November 8, 2022

      Ukraine is a sovereign country and must be allowed to make its own decisions. I, personally, entirely agree with President Zelenski that it is impossible to deal with Putin and, therefore, the only course of action at present is to try and throw off the invader from Ukraine’s sovereign boundaries. We, in the West should recognise that if Putin is not stopped at Ukraine’s borders, he will, at some stage invade other countries that used to be part of the old Soviet Union. If that were to happen, NATO would inevitably then become involved and we would be that much closer to nuclear Armageddon.
      We must continue to support Ukraine with all the arms and money it needs whatever hardships this might entail for us (a great deal less than those currently being suffered by Ukraine).

    9. BOF
      November 8, 2022

      Wanderer
      Bakruptcy presents no problem to our government. The solution is just roll those printing presses again!

  6. Lifelogic
    November 8, 2022

    A hugely depressing speech by Sunak at Con27
    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-statement-at-cop27-7-november-2022

    I cannot vote for this deluded (or worse lying) man even if the alternative is far worse – a Starmer/SNP disaster.

    Some extracts from this speech with my comments in brackets.

    When Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II addressed COP 26 last year, she reflected how history has shown…“…that when nations come together in common cause, there is always room for hope.”
    (Well, nations clearly never do all come together in a common cause do they? Certainly not on net zero China, Russia, Africa, the Americas, Iran, India… acting individually is pointless and anyway CO2 is not a problem)

    With one last chance to create a plan that would limit global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees
    (only a complete idiot and scientific illiterate could think that CO2 is some kind of simple world thermostat that can be turned up at down by a degree or two)

    And for our part, the UK…
    …will fulfil our ambitious commitment to reduce emissions by at least 68 per cent by 2030.
    (Why? Thus rendering the UK far poorer and even more uncompetitive, destroying jobs, freezing pensioners and people to death. Far more die of cold than from high temperatures in the UK indeed even in Australia this is true)

    In Glasgow, more than 140 countries which are home to over 90 per cent of the world’s forests…
    … made a historic promise to halt and reverse forest loss and land degradation by the end of this decade.
    (but we still import felled US trees to burn at Drax on diesel ships creating far more CO2 than coal would while pretending it does no count)

    I know that for many, finances are tough right now.
    (Due to 12+ years of economic mismanagement particularly by myself, Hammond, Osborne and before that Darling, Brown, Clarke, Major…)

    The pandemic all but broke the global economy.
    (not so the governments’ moronic over reaction to the pandemic did this as does the mad war on CO2 plant food)

    Or look at the devastating floods in Pakistan…
    (which happen regularly & even before the industrial revolution)

    But it is also economically right too.
    (How to you come to this mad conclusion Sunak?)

    Climate security goes hand in hand with energy security.
    (and this mad conclusion?)

    Putin’s abhorrent war in Ukraine and rising energy prices across the world are not a reason to go slow on climate change.
    They are a reason to act faster.
    (Surely you mean go “more slowly” and “more quickly”, but in reality, they are the perfect excuse to backtrack on the insane net zero agenda).

    Because diversifying our energy supplies by investing in renewables…
    …is precisely the way to insure ourselves against the risks of energy dependency.
    It is also a fantastic source of new jobs and growth.
    (Total B/S Sunak it destroys and exports jobs and whole industries, fine to have renewables where sensible but without subsidies and the market rigging).

    ….and to thank the UK’s President of COP26, Alok Sharma…
    (The man is clearly a deluded emotional fool at best or a fraud at worst)

    ….we can turn our struggle against climate change into a global mission for new jobs and clean growth…
    (the real struggle is caused by the mad Government policy of Net Zero)

    …and we can bequeath our children a greener planet and a more prosperous future. (CO2 is plant, crop and tree food and is greening the planet nicely we are in a relative dearth of CO2 currently)
    That’s a legacy we could be proud of.
    So as we come together once again in common cause today,
    there really is room for hope.
    Together, let us fulfil it.
    Published 7 November 2022

    (In the common cause of destroying the economy, exporting jobs, destroying mobility and freezing people to death I assume you mean – A great plan Sunak, a disaster politically, in health terms, defence terms and economic terms)

    1. BOF
      November 8, 2022

      LL
      How I agree. My reading of your comment came with added expletives, so would be unprintable.

    2. Donna
      November 8, 2022

      Great critique of Sunak’s idiotic speech and the moronic policies they’re pushing on us which will make absolutely no difference to the climate but will cost us a fortune we haven’t got.

      I’m not voting for an idiotic, virtue-signalling Party which believes in 6 impossible things before breakfast. Or one which seems to think British taxpayers should pay to provide flood-defences in Pakistan when its own Government chooses to spend its own money on nuclear weapons and traditional military.

    3. Leslie Singleton
      November 8, 2022

      Dear Lifelogic–It would help if there were an iota of proof worthy of the name about what is causing the climate change. Post hoc non propter hoc remains immutably true. Correlation till the cows come home does not prove causation. The fact that the climate change is very serious proves nothing. Our “cure” might be making it worse.

      1. Lifelogic
        November 8, 2022

        Millions of things cause climate change always have and always will. Manmade CO2 is just one of them and not even a very significant one. Solar activity, orbits, volcanic activity, meteor impacts, vegetation, the movements of the continental plates…

    4. Christine
      November 8, 2022

      UK announces major new package of climate support at COP27.

      GOV.UK reports:The UK continues deliver on our key funding commitments, spending £11.6 billion on international climate finance. (Their bad English, not mine).

      So whilst the British people face austerity, a recession, and freezing here, we have the Sunak idiot giving away our hard earned money for no benefit whatsoever. How is this allowed to happen?

      1. BOF
        November 8, 2022

        Christine
        You mean it comes out of our pockets, not out of the Sunak family fortune?

      2. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        History shows what tends to happen when countries in a bad economic situation re-food, power, jobs, political strife, civil unrest and divided government. They covet their neighbours who may have managed things rather better. Now think about what is happening in UK – we have a sea channel between us and neighbours, but can exert frustration much further east.

    5. Sharon
      November 8, 2022

      I know exactly what you mean! It’s ridiculous nonsense they are spouting. I can’t believe they can’t see how absurd they all sound!

      It would make far more sense to spend money on things they can control… dredge rivers, build flood defences, clear the scrub from the bush etc etc Work at dealing with what needs to be done to live with the weather.

      How does that saying go? God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

      With regards to Ukraine, I too don’t know the answer. It’s another one of those political situations, that is complex and not easy to resolve.

      1. Lifelogic
        November 8, 2022

        +1

    6. Peter Wood
      November 8, 2022

      Makes you mad doesn’t it….

      The question I would put to any climatological pontificating politician or pundit, that I’ve yet to hear, is: ‘what ‘World Temperature’ is it that we are trying to stay less than 1.5 deg. C above?’ I know there is a vague wordy answer, but that is not how we measure things, if we have a target measured in tenths of degrees C but we don’t know a base number, how can we say if we are under or over it?

      1. Lifelogic
        November 8, 2022

        Indeed which world temperature? Much of the recent rather small temp increase is due to taking reading at places like Heathrow, the urban heat effect and other proxy fiddles, Heathrow is hardly the same today as it was when it was a grass runway not all that long ago.

      2. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        and the biggest threat to the world weather extremes, leading to possible semi-permanent environment change is a) catastrophic volcanoes causing tsunamis and b) large scale widespread nuclear explosions causing uninhabitable land masses, coastal lowering and loss of major food growing and industrial land.

    7. Narrow Shoulders
      November 8, 2022

      I am waiting for one person to stand up and acknowledge that there are now 8 billion people in the world. The majority of that growth coming from developing countries who are building on flood plains and bringing much of the “climate disasters” on themselves.

      There is no need for anyone to be seeking reparations and no reason for our self loathing (yet enamoured with themselves) politicians to promise any of our money.

      1. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        We need acceptance by China, India and other large populations to seriously limit pop growth by use of longer -term injections to cause infertility for periods of 5 and 10 year cycles. Ideally we could benefit from 8bn people to fall toward 6bn in one generation, hopefully peacefully.

    8. Stred
      November 8, 2022

      On top of that load of rubbish the puppet has agreed that the UK should compensate poor countries like China and India for environmental damage caused by our excessive CO2 emissions, when they are already lower and his spending has left us broke and with huge energy costs looming next April.

    9. Jim Whitehead
      November 8, 2022

      LL, ++++++

    10. Cuibono
      November 8, 2022

      +many
      Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!
      Couldn’t bear to listen!
      What utter rubbish.
      Funny how he wasn’t so genned up BEFORE alleged installation of you-know-what!!

    11. Sakara Gold
      November 8, 2022

      What a load of complete and utter tosh. The worst climate change denial rant I have ever read on this blog. Why our host allows you to post this crap amazes me. Boring!

      1. Hope
        November 8, 2022

        Well said LL. brilliant post.

      2. Leslie Singleton
        November 8, 2022

        Dear Sakara–Nobody is denying that the climate is changing, meaning the temperature is rising, the seas are becoming more acidic etc etc, the issue is what is causing the changes, and I reckon the relative scientists haven’t much idea and even less real scientific proof. Bit like the Sun’s once being believed, and with absolute, indeed religious, certalnty to be going round the Earth instead of the opposite.

      3. Shirley M
        November 8, 2022

        Nobody denies the climate is changing. The climate has changed for whole existence of the world, from hot to cold, back to hot, back to cold, etc. We are currently in a cold period, I believe. It’s the CO2 myth that is rubbish, and the fact that men ‘say’ they can control the climate (and the sun and the moon too???). King Canute had more sense and that was in the days before bought and paid for ‘scientists’ willing to use climate fear for a completely different agenda. Cut the human population. We either do it voluntarily or nature will do it for us!

      4. BOF
        November 8, 2022

        Ah! Climate change denial. That old chestnut.

      5. Cuibono
        November 8, 2022

        S. Gold
        It surely must be the very best…or it would not have upset you so!

        LL is totally brilliant!!

      6. Lifelogic
        November 8, 2022

        Do you have an specific intelligent arguments to put forwards or just general, childish abuse? I assume not.

    12. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      We, the west, sanctioned Russian energy supplies, and blew up Nordstream. Sunak does not expect or even want to win the next election. More fool the Tory MPs who need to retain their seats to eat.

      1. Shirley M
        November 9, 2022

        I am sure the majority of them already have their ‘rewards’ lined up. They may be willing to totally ruin our country and it’s people, but only an mental case/psychopath would destroy their own, and their families future without ensuring they will be excluded from the inevitable fallout.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          Yep! Psychopaths abound. They are unemployable and once they lose their seats, will starve. As one MP confirmed ‘there is nothing as ex as an ex-MP’. Most are professional politicians and have no saleable talents.

    13. Nigl
      November 8, 2022

      A hugely depressing post, little to do with the subject and more repetition.

    14. Ian B
      November 8, 2022

      @Lifelogic
      (In the common cause of destroying the economy, exporting jobs, destroying mobility and freezing people to death I assume you mean – A great plan Sunak, a disaster politically, in health terms, defence terms and economic terms)

      No economy, no wealth creation, no cutting the State to suit income means all the promises of money give-aways comes straight from more tax. ‘Hey ho’ Rishi like Boris thinks Governments have money and their access to your wallet is their divine right

      You as one of their minions can always cut back if it gives them a headline on the World stage and strokes their ego. This is not serving the people or government by the people this is my rule my land you are now the surfs – just as it was after the Norman Conquest. The UK didn’t make money from slavery but it leaders did by keeping the people their as slaves

    15. Fedupsoutherner
      November 8, 2022

      Great post LL. When I first listened to Sunak speaking I couldn’t help thinking he we go again. Showering the world with money like it’s confetti and then wondering which group he would sign up to. Extinction Rebellion or Stop Oil Now. Perhaps he could climb a gantry and stay there. To think this fool is leading our country. I despair. Those at COP26 are all deluded hypocrites and the so called poorer countries need to get their act together abd start spending money by reducing their populations and stop building on flood plains. Kick the nuclear and space projects into the long grass too. We can’t afford to keep funding the rest of the world.

    16. rose
      November 8, 2022

      What a petty lttle fool he was not to say Boris can represent us. And Boris doesn’t want to pay reparations.

    17. Ralph Corderoy
      November 8, 2022

      This has nothing to do with the topic of Sir John’s post and I would prefer the moderator had not let it through to clutter the comments. This is distinct from whether I agree with you or not.

    18. Bert Young
      November 8, 2022

      What a boring lengthy and out-of-topic reply .

    19. Lester_Cynic
      November 8, 2022

      LL

      +++++++++++++++++
      I couldn’t agree with you more

  7. formula57
    November 8, 2022

    The war will likely end in some cease fire stalemate as Russia is obliged by the international community (led by China and the USA) to accept its aggression cannot be obviously rewarded and Ukraine is obliged to accept it is just not important nor faultless enough to be saved. In due time, possibly post-Putin, the situation in Crimea and the areas of eastern Ukraine where the people wish to be Russian might be dealt with by negotiation pressed by an international community keen to avoid fresh military operations arising. It should probably end that way too. Meanwhile, many fault lines have been exposed and the world is less stable as a result.

    1. Mike Stallard
      November 8, 2022

      Do you actually know any Ukrainians? The one I knew well was the late Mrs Julya Robinson who was a Ukrainian from Donbas. She saw the Russians, (this was back in the pre covid times), as aggressors, hungry for land and ruthless. Her parents had to move to Poland where her brother (pre covid) was avoiding the constant warfare (remember the Malay aircraft being accidentally shot down?) by starting a small business there. They ended up back home and living in a cellar as the war raged above them. Don’
      t think of the Ukrainians as Russians! They are much more like Poles (who once ruled the Ukraine).

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 8, 2022

        Oh you think Nikolaev, founded by Potemkin is a Polish city 😂 – yes the war in Donbas has been raging since 2014, shelled daily by the Ukrainian Army. 14,000 civilians dead. If your friends are Polish they should move to Lviv!

      2. rose
        November 8, 2022

        Mike, we used to have Ukrainians to stay every year when the Boyan choir was on tour. They were a mixture of Russian, Ukrainian, and Russian/Ukrainian. Cossacks.

    2. Roy Grainger
      November 8, 2022

      There aren’t any regions in Ukraine where the people “wish to be Russian”. They had a referendum on this in 1991 and every single region, including Crimea, had a majority who wanted independence from Russia. For the UK to advocate ignoring the result of such a referendum is a bad idea otherwise who knows which other referendums will be ignored ?

      USA current midterm elections are important, many Republicans are opposed to the current Ukraine policy.

      1. Clough
        November 8, 2022

        It’s a bit more complicated than you say, Roy. “A three-part referendum was held in Crimea on 27 March 1994 alongside regional and national elections. Voters were asked whether they were in favour of greater autonomy within Ukraine, whether residents should have dual Russian and Ukrainian citizenship, and whether presidential decrees should have the status of laws. All three proposals were approved.” (Wikipedia) So what Crimeans wanted was self-determination within Ukraine, and to be allowed dual Ukrainian Russian citizenship. Kiev wouldn’t allow them that. That is why in 2014 they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia.

      2. Stred
        November 8, 2022

        The Finns and Norwegians polled citizens of Mariopol before the war started. Most identified as Russian ethnic and speaking. A large majority didn’t want to join Russia or the EU but wanted to be independent Ukranian Russian speaking. But the language had been banned by the nationalists. Now the place is wrecked.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          Good news! The Russians have rebuilt over 1,000 very attractive apartments in Mariupol, search for the pictures, better than anything built by British Councils.

    3. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      You need to read the Chinese readout for the meeting with Schultz. Nothing like the Beeb report. China is a close ally of Russia and told Schultz effectively ‘to stop threatening nuclear war’.

      1. NBill Brown
        November 9, 2022

        Lynn

        You really don’t have a clue
        First of all he is called Scholz and secondly he has never mentioned use of nuclear weapons in connection with the Ukraine

    4. formula57
      November 8, 2022

      Re. many fault lines have been exposed and the world is less stable as a result – as was the case after the Sudetenland crisis of course.

      Let us hope your war-monger colleagues are not allowed to drag us once again into pulling others’ chestnuts out of the fire. We can well-afford to sit out the next war.

  8. turboterrier
    November 8, 2022

    The whole sorry mess of this war has shown that some of the European nations only have concerns only with their own political survival and have dragged their heels in totally supporting all the sanctions that were applied and the physical support of giving the Ukrainian forces the equipment to repel the Russian advances.
    In certain areas the EU are far from united and for many it is has been a question of sitting back, hope that they can remain a onlooker and weather the storm with some small medium of credibility. All of which gives confidence to the Russia’s of this world they might talk but they will not act to prevent my ambitions being achieved. Nobody wants war but sometimes it is necessary to stand up against the bullies and thugs of this world.

    1. Shirley M
      November 8, 2022

      +1 turbo. Those are my thought too.

    2. Ian B
      November 8, 2022

      @turboterrier A situation not helped when Russia first declared war on the Ukraine and succeeded in stealing the Crimea from them and the EU shrugging there shoulders in a suggestion ‘oh that’s OK’ The EU rewarding aggression, that’s why Putin thought it would be a walk in the park to repeat the exercise

    3. Lester_Cynic
      November 8, 2022

      TT
      You’ve fallen for the MSM narrative, Putin warned what would happen if NATO tried expanding to the Russian border, the problems in Ukraine have been going on since 2024, Zelensky isn’t a paragon of democracy, he’s banned opposition parties and has made himself extremely wealthy, Johnson squashed any talk of a peace treaty and it’s Biden’s and the West’s proxy war on Russia.

      The only people hurt by the sanctions on Russia are the European nations, Russia is selling its oil and gas to China and India

      Try watching Alex Christoforou on YouTube

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 9, 2022

        And listen to Maria Zakarova and the brilliant Lavrov – their speeches are quickly translated into English readouts. Also all telephone conversations etc.
        MBS is joining the ‘fair world order’ – multipolar, being established by Russia and China, and he is turning his back on the West. That’s the end of the petro-Dollar.
        This is calamitous for all of us in the west. We certainly can mo longer afford Climate Change scams, Pandemic scams or one world Government scams. Certainly no trans humanism!

  9. X-Tory
    November 8, 2022

    Regardless of whatever any of us might wish, the war will end in a stalemate, with the lines more or less where they are now. Russia will have gained a tiny bit of extra territory but it will be at a huge price. A pyrrhic victory if ever there was one.

    What annoys me is that we are just GIVING all the aid and materiel to Ukraine for free. We should be SELLING it to them! In WW2 we had to pay the US for the aid they sent us – it was called Lend-Lease and we only finished paying for it all at the end of 2006. Ukraine has huge natural gas reserves and will have plenty of money once these are properly exploited so we should stop just gifting everything to them.

  10. Shirley M
    November 8, 2022

    I am not that knowledgeable about this conflict, so this is just a personal opinion without any supporting facts, but a sovereign country should never be threatened with intent to take the country away from its people, be it an internal threat or an external threat. Independence and sovereignty should NOT need the permission of any other country otherwise they are not truly independent. We have an internal threat in the UK, Ukraine has an external threat (and possibly an internal one too if the rumours are correct, but if so, why would they fight so hard?). I hear excuses from Putin defenders that that Ukraine is corrupt and treating Russians badly, but does that really justify trying to take a whole country from ALL of it’s people? Is Russia any less corrupt? Is the UK? Some countries may be better at covering up and some people (like Brits) are now too tolerant and meek to put up a fight against the aggressors who are enabled by our successive governments. We are losing our country by stealth and indifference. I admire the Ukranians so much. They have a country they still love and are willing to fight for.

  11. turboterrier
    November 8, 2022

    Putin looked around at France, America, Germany and the UK and saw what he perceived to be weak, wobbly leadership all talk , no action going from crisis to crisis all wrapped up with climate change, covid and STW.
    It presented him with an opportunity to long term dream of the restoration of the USSR as like Hitler he thought he could walk into the Ukraine and roll the country over and nobody would dare to lift a finger in protest.
    If Johnson had not been so committed to prevent what he could see as a dangerous situation I think America may have dragged its heels while NATO and the UN struggled with what to do.
    Bit like COP 27 all standing on a so called world stage banging their gums posturing but each and everyone of them with its own secret agenda.
    All these organisation’s are the perfect environment for the faceless decision makers to nurture and fine tune their secret world agenda known only to a few. May be Putin has done the world a favour. Unless there is world and national security all the rest of these grandiose plans are not worth diddly squat.

  12. Philip P.
    November 8, 2022

    The Ukraine war, begun in 2014, should have ended with an agreement by Ukraine to fulfil the terms of the Minsk II agreement it signed up to the following year. These were to grant the Russian-speaking Donbas areas partial autonomy and the use of their own language in public life. Ukraine failed to implement the agreement, and its European guarantors Merkel and Hollande failed to hold them to what it had undertaken. Ideally, the war should end now in the same way. Since the Zelensky regime refuses to negotiate, the US and the UK should take over as new guarantors. The negotiating position should be that Russia is kept to what it claimed to be doing in February, defending the Donbas region against Kiev. There should be wide international support for this stance, especially since the UN voted to get Ukraine to implement the Minsk II accords. Negotiation on this basis will remove Russia’s grounds for invasion, so all its other territorial gains since February must be given up.

    China and other non-NATO countries have repeatedly called for negotiated settlement, so a Russian refusal to negotiate would in my view isolate it far more effectively than prolonging the war and imposing sanctions have done.

  13. John McDonald
    November 8, 2022

    Sir John,
    No discussion about the War in Ukraine is valid unless it starts from 2014 and the illegal overthrow of a democratically elected Government which the West did not like and took a very active part to achieve its downfall.
    We can all agree that it never justified to invade a county. But the UK has done this- Iraq, and that on a lie, and no excuse that ethnic British Iraqis were being shelled by the Iraqi Government.
    Let’s not be blind ourselves to the fact that this is the Western Elites war against Russia at the expense of Ukrainian and Russian lives. But Not Western Lives, however, but at great economic cost and oncoming hardship to those Lives and indirect deaths.
    Our UK Government wants this war and is taking a very active part in it, albeit out of site from public view.
    No effort whatsoever to promote peace talks, save the enormous economic cost, hardship to us the ordinary UK citizen. And the most important the Lives of thousands of Ukraine and Russian Lives.
    Stop the war, not defend it. This is WW3 make no mistake.

  14. Mike Stallard
    November 8, 2022

    Facts: The Ukrainians are livid – as I would be if a foreign dictator seized bits of England. Add to that deliberate shelling of apartments and cutting off electricity and now threats of “tactical” nuclear bombs (only like Nagasaki) on Kherson. Russian conscripts have behaved appallingly too. If someone raped my grannie, I should be a bit cross too.
    Facts: Mr Putin thinks he is Vladimir the Great/Peter the Great/ Stalin against the Nazis. Who will correct him? If he is dying (who knows?) that makes him in a hurry. He needs a place in Russian history fast.

    Munich and Chamberlain – not again – please – I thought we had learned that one.

    1. Hope
      November 8, 2022

      Mike,
      The Tory govt gave N.Ireland to EU! No cross word, no bullet or tank. Under the Tory govt gave away N.Ireland and in doing so broke act of union and GFA! N.Ireland has to accept rules regulations and laws from EU without any representation! Also any business in BG wishing to do business there also has to act under EU and it costs us, the taxpayer to check goods from GB to NI!

      Good grief Mike, I like reading your posts but this one is way off the mark.

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      You will only learn the lesson when NATO is totally defeated, any day now. Putin is defeating the Western Globalist one World Government madmen. That’s why they hate him personally and want him destroyed. They achieve One World Government only if they are in ‘lockstep’ like the Covid fiasco.
      Putin is intellectually in a class of his own amounts ‘world leaders’ you should read the readouts and stop listening to the Beeb. He approval rating in The Russian Federation is over 80%.
      Personally I wish him god speed. There are no Russian conscripts in the front line, but Ukraine is calling up women!
      We are the bad guys in this situation. I’m ashamed that the U.K. is fighting for the fascists against our wartime anti-fascist allies.

      Reply The Ukrainian government is not fascist. Putin has ordered atrocities and is fading a country that does not wish to under Russian rule.

      1. John McDonald
        November 8, 2022

        Not sure why people think the Ukraine government is so innocent . Too much thinking done for them by the BBC. They should do a bit more research into this war fueled by the West. Would the British English shell the British Scots if they break away from the UK . Would the UK government ban Welsh being taught in schools and in Government documents ? This is what has caused Russia/ Putin to invade. We can all agree the wrong thing to do. The Minsk agreement if fully supported by the West would have stopped the war before it started and saved thousands of lives and massive destruction caused by both sides.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 9, 2022

          +1

    3. rose
      November 8, 2022

      The EU have effectively annexed Northern Ireland and we seem to be taking it lying down.

    4. Bill B.
      November 8, 2022

      The war might be brought to a speedier conclusion if some people in this country stopped dreaming they are in World War Two and fantasising about how to win another one. The truth is that we in Britain have no ability whatsoever to influence how the conflict is resolved. All that’s being done is prolonging the agony of a country that has suffered enough. The government’s responsibility is to people in this country, not to Kyiv. Let’s see about the budget on 17th November: Big cuts in public services in Britain together with more billions thrown down the pan in Ukraine would not be a good look.

    5. mickc
      November 8, 2022

      Chamberlain was right. He knew perfectly well that a war would bankrupt Britain and tried to avoid it. In the meantime he built up our defences, against much opposition including from Labour, who now seem to think they were actually pro “stopping Germany”; they weren’t, they supported “appeasement”…it was a very sensible policy.

      1. Mickey Taking
        November 8, 2022

        Chamberlain built up ? What! Churchill had been briefed for several years and encouraged increasing our readiness for what seemed to be inevitable war started by Germany (OK – Hitler).

  15. Hat man
    November 8, 2022

    You say, Sir John, that you would like thoughts on how the war should end, but you follow that with an insistence on keeping the war going, by supplying military assistance to Ukraine. There is no good outcome if you view matters in those terms. Unless NATO wants to pursue its neocon objective of regime change in Russia to the bitter end, and fails, it needs to reconsider and take stock. There is no way Russia will relinquish conquered territory now – it simply will not trust Western-brokered agreements any longer. While NATO is working out a new strategy, it should insist Kiev accepts a cease-fire and possible loss of territory, then engages in negotiations on the basis that all options are on the table. These can be drawn out for some time, giving the West a chance to reflect on whether it wishes to endure economic meltdown for the sake of Zelensky’s pride, or whether it wishes to call off its ‘weaken Russia’ strategy. In the meanwhile, with reduced international tensions, energy prices should start to fall substantially.

  16. Berkshire Alan
    November 8, 2022

    Sorry to say I do not see a sensible end to this war for anyone, possibly those who live/lived in Ukraine and wanted Russian control could go to live in Russia I guess, otherwise it shows invasion is rewarded.
    The problem for Ukraine is if the West fails to continue with its generosity of weapons, and intelligence supply.
    Would we give up Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Hampshire, West Sussex, East Sussex and Kent to a foreign power if they invaded, because that is the sort of land mass involved.

    1. Mark B
      November 8, 2022

      Well we have Northern Ireland to the EU.

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      We have given up NI! What is the EU?

  17. Donna
    November 8, 2022

    The evidence is that Biden is completely “wobbly.” He’s so “wobbly” he can’t find his way off a stage when he’s finished messing up the speech he’s been given to read. Whoever’s running America, it certainly isn’t him.

    As far as Russia/Ukraine are concerned we’re in a WW1 situation where both sides have dug in and their Leaders are so committed that neither can back down. It’s likely to be a very long war unless one of the Leaders is dispensed with/disposed of ….. or NATO restricts/withdraws its support so Ukraine doesn’t have the weaponry to keep fighting for long.

    The result of the Mid-Terms in America may affect the policy choices of Wobbly Biden’s Handlers.

  18. Narrow Shoulders
    November 8, 2022

    The Ukrainian war has proved, like Afghanistan, that it is virtually impossible to defeat a well-armed, determined native population when invading.

    Superpowers take note. Ukraine should not negotiate, Russia is running out of soldiers.

    1. Lester_Cynic
      November 8, 2022

      NS

      Where did you hear that?

      On the bbc!
      All the MSM are singing from the same hymn sheet, doesn’t that strike you as a bit strange?

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      Careful. it’s Ukraine that is conscripting and forcing untrained people to the frontline at gun-point. And the Neo-Cons in the west are happy to fight to the last Ukrainian. Russia views Ukrainians as the same Ethnic entity as themselves. That’s why they have so far has a ‘Special Military Operation’ thus far.

  19. Ian B
    November 8, 2022

    “Is President Biden going wobbly on Ukraine?”

    Biden wobbly, its the Boris Johnson say anything to remind people you are still there. Unlike the UK PM’s position POTUS cant walk over the people that easily

  20. Lynn Atkinson
    November 8, 2022

    Ukraine did not manage to see off the west when it ‘replaced their government’. Russia intervened to stop the war being waged against the ethnic Russians who found themselves in Ukraine when that border was moved. The genocide persecuted by Ukraine began in 2014, and France and Germany guaranteed the Minsk Agreement which would have delivered peace, but both saw fit not to enforce it on Ukraine, then Boris intervened to stop another peace agreement.
    Russia cannot trust the word of the west, because this is a proxy NATO war against Russia – and NATO is losing. The Ukrainian Army is destroyed.
    This war will end with NATO, defeated economically, demilitarised but not yet de-Nazified, is crushed and begging for mercy.
    The decadent west deserves it. The western ‘leaders’ without consulting their people, with no reason to persecute a war in our name, without declaring war, are just terrorists at home (Covid) and abroad.
    We need a complete defeat so,Webster people drain the swamp.

    1. Hope
      November 9, 2022

      ++++1

    2. NBill Brown
      November 9, 2022

      Lynn

      It’s absolutely amazing that you can believe the sort of rubbish you are trying to present here . It’s Russian propaganda and lies at it’s worst.

  21. Sakara Gold
    November 8, 2022

    The last paragraph is exacty spot on. Putin, the war criminal, has constantly attempted to divide NATO countries, including buy threatening a nuclear attack. If Putin is allowed to sieze a neigbouring country’s territory by force, bomb kintergartens, hospitals, bomb shelters, residential neigbourhoods, infrastructure etc etc then, like Hitler, he will not stop.

    The pro-Russian MAGA Trumpian wing of the GOP is threatening to stop US military support if it wins the midterm elections. Fortunately, having spent north of $15billion, as long as the Executive wishes to weaken Russia in this way, US support will continue

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      Please cite the statement with references by Putin threatening Nuclear deployment except in defence against a nuclear attack?

  22. Original Richard
    November 8, 2022

    Mr. Putin started this war but the EU and the US caused it by meddling in Ukrainian politics and offering Ukraine membership of NATO and the EU.

    Mr. Putin should have simply used the US technique of applying sanctions to get what he wanted, such as cutting off the fossil fuel supplies to Europe, but he stupidly started a war.

    It will end when Ukraine cedes some Russian speaking territory and the US/EU say that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO or the EU.

    The US is happy to continue the war as long as possible in the hope of weakening Russia (although I read that Russia is making so much money from the higher prices on its fossil fuels that it will cancel its national debt within the next 2 years) and also weakening Europe in the process.

  23. dixie
    November 8, 2022

    I think the war should end in a way that is satisfactory for the people of Ukraine and will deter such aggression in the future.
    But, I don’t think it will end in a way that is satisfactory for the people of Ukraine nor deter such aggression.
    Russia is one of the biggest countries in the world and has vast natural resources, yet their leadership wants even more and past treaties and agreements have not prevented their current display of greed.
    Clearly it is only credible action or the clear threat of it which will deter such madness.
    BTW We should not be paying billions to the Germans and other European countries to buy equipment from them for our armed forces to protect them. That equation must be rebalanced, unless you want another Brexit.

  24. Geoffrey Berg
    November 8, 2022

    There are circumstances when one cannot sensibly negotiate.
    One such circumstance is with Putin as he wouldn’t keep to an agreement. He would only use such a treaty to re-equip his troops before breaking it and invading again, at least if we did not place Western armies in Ukraine or let Ukraine join NATO which won’t happen, not least because it is too difficult to get 30 countries to unanimously agree to admit new members (Sweden and Finland are still being delayed by Turkey and Hungary despite their supposed in principle agreement).
    Another circumstance where negotiation is useless is with France over illegal immigrant channel crossings as it is not in France’s interests to stop them. If we don’t get those illegals France will be stuck with them and bear the costs. So why would they want that burden rather than us? Yet instead of accommodating illegal immigrants in expensive hotels, we could put them into a fenced in Dover tent jungle akin to what was ‘the Calais Jungle’ which neither the French nor European Courts stopped on supposed ‘human rights grounds’.

  25. agricola
    November 8, 2022

    An ideal in my mind would be:-
    1. A Russian withdrawal to its borders as existed prior to their invasion of Crimea
    2. The institution of a “Marshall Plan” for the rebuilding of Ukraine, funded as far as possible by frozen Russian assets in the West, then the rest of the World. It is in the Worlds interest to get the Ukraine back as the Worlds functioning breadbasket.
    3. Democratically supervised elections in those provinces of Ukraine where Russia has claimed their affinity with Russia. Everyone needs to see how real this might be.
    4. A gradual return to normal trading and diplomatic relations with Russia which is in everyones interest.

    The realisation of the above would be an object lesson to any other country of aggresive intent that jaw jaw beats war war.

    1. The other Christine
      November 8, 2022

      The only way this will come to any conclusion is by negotiation. Despite what others on this thread seem to believe, Russia will win. They have overwhelming manpower and weapons. As always the USA is the key. Zelensky is refusing the US suggestion that he negotiates with Russia because he just cannot entertain the idea. How could he explain to his people who have lost so many of their loved ones on the battlefield that he’s negotiating now rather than 6 months ago when he could have done so and saved thousands of lives? That the trouble with allowing the US to dictate your fate. I only have sympathy with the Russian and Ukrainian men who have died so needlessly.

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      Russia is rebuilding In the war zone, see the regeneration of Mariupol, even though we in the west are ‘trying to find a legal way of stealing all their foreign currency reserves’ – just what Hitler would do – he avoided breaking the law at all costs!

  26. Nigl
    November 8, 2022

    Surely negotiation implies legitimacy of claim by all parties. So if this happens, the West are saying Putin has a right to some of Ukraine, a sovereign country. Thus rewarding an a aggressor. The West’s stance on Tibet has been shameful for decades, look out Taiwan.

    Macron and Biden both in big trouble domestically. Macron desperate to get his voters off his back due to his failed atomic, mainly, energy policy by getting access to Putins gas.

    Equally is anyone suggesting Putin will hold his hands up, cede captured territory and offer reparations and then can be trusted with any agreement. I don’t think so.

    So there is not an outcome acceptable to both sides, indeed to suggest Ukraine should crumble is outrageous.

    Bullies need to be confronted and faced down. Putin is in severe trouble economically and politically, even within Russia. Allowing any sort of ‘negotiated’ settlement even if only saving his face, will embolden him, allow him to rebuild and come back for another bite, as inevitably he will, because he needs ‘the external threats to Russia’ to distract his electorate from the corruption and internal elimination failures.

  27. Lynn Atkinson
    November 8, 2022

    Is our nuclear submarine, surfaced because of fire on board, OK?

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      Do you know JR? Lucky it was not in the Black Sea – or as Liz Truss says – the `Baltic’ 😂

  28. Sea_Warrior
    November 8, 2022

    Not the complete answer but I’ll suggest that:
    (1) Ukraine should propose that the UN puts a peacekeeping force – soldiers and police – into the Donbas while a slight measure of autonomy for the region is worked out. This would involve Ukraine respecting the Russian language and culture but not ceding sovereignty.
    (2) The EU, Russia and Ukraine conclude an FTA, for trade into and out of Ukraine, while the EU puts Ukraine’s application for membership on the same back-burner as Turkey’s.
    (3) NATO stipulates that it will not accept Ukraine into the alliance. NATO should prioritise the security of its existing members over extending security guarantees to those who want to join.
    (4) The Free World continues applying economic sanctions on Russia until Putin and his fellow war-criminals either appear in the dock or are dead OR Russia has paid full reparations.
    (5) The British government stops bank-rolling the Ukrainian state. Any assistance must come from either the existing foreign aid budget or be in the form of loans. If anyone is to subsidise Ukraine it should be the empire-building EU, which wanted it in its family.
    (6) The money to repair any ‘damage’ to our undersea infrastructure should be taken from the frozen accounts of the Russian state or Putin’s personal accounts if we know where they are.
    P.S. Looking back at our response to the Salisbury attack, wasn’t it weak beyond belief?

  29. turboterrier
    November 8, 2022

    Today’s first 6 posts were quiet amazing in that one entry was the equivalent to five of my mobile screen lengths and to add salt to the wound the subject matter was about the PM and COP 27.
    Made my two sitting in moderation seem quite short by comparison at just over a screen length and relating to today’s subject matter. I surely not be the only one that feels this way?

    1. Peter
      November 8, 2022

      turboterrier,

      COP27 is an new item of interest for ‘you know who’. He has something of a fanbase on here and he is indulged. He is unconcerned about post length or verbiage.

      I have not yet spotted any Bingo phrases related to COP27, but there are now less of his existing ones including, surprisingly, ‘greencrap’.

  30. Ian B
    November 8, 2022

    Reparations sounds like compensation for something that you have 100% been responsibility for.
    Britain has caused 78 billion tonnes of CO2 emissions in a 270-year gap between 1750 and 2020, while China has caused 80 billion tonnes from 2013 to 2020.
    Without exception the Countries that see an opportunity for a fast free buck are feeding the problem they have, they are creating it. If you are buying from the polluters you are feeding the problem

    The again the UK does have to hold its hand up, Boris/Rishi are the instigators of exporting UK jobs and industry so the UK is forced by them to buy from the polluters.

    Rishi you are the problem behind the UK having no wealth creation, you are the problem behind the UK’s second hand pollution creation. You are ‘playing’ with our money not yours or with Governments(Its has never had money) A short sabbatical doesn’t absolve from the terror you and Boris foisted on the UK.

  31. Fedupsoutherner
    November 8, 2022

    I have no answer to your question on Ukraine John suffice to say that it is already a ruined country but whether letting Putin get away with what he has done is a difficult one particularly if it sends the message that he can strike wherever he feels like it. If the war carries on will the price people have had to pay be worth it and will they survive this winter? Perhaps when we’re all moaning about power cuts this winter we might spare a thought for the Ukrainians.

  32. Keith from Leeds
    November 8, 2022

    Nato should declare Ukraine a member with immediate effect & give Russia 7 days to withdraw all its troops or face the full force of all members of NATO. Putin is a bully & will only back down if confronted with overwhelming force. Russia should then be forced to pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine over the next 10 to 20 years.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      NATO has been fighting this proxy war from the start and is beaten. That’s why it’s looking to Ukraine to effect a surrender.

      1. NBill Brown
        November 9, 2022

        Is this why Russia is withdrawing from Kherson?

    2. mickc
      November 8, 2022

      Great idea! Yes…let’s have Versailles Mark 2…the first one worked our really well…

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 9, 2022

        Versailles Mark II is the Brexit Agreement. Let’s hope it works as well as mkI.

  33. Javelin
    November 8, 2022

    The Conservative Party will look on in horror today and will comprehend what has happened to Biden and the Democrats is about to happen to Rishi and The Conservatives.

    The out of touch WEF elites have tried to impose their globalist, net zero, mass migration, woke agenda on the West and it is a DISASTER on EVERY MEASURE.

    Globalism has led to supply chain crisis,. Mass migration has led to an over stretched Government service crisis, housing crisis, terrorist crisis. Net zero has led to an energy crisis. Woke has led to a culture and mental health crisis. Lockdowns have led to a health crisis. Every where you look there is crisis. It all culminates in an inflation and cost of living crisis. And EVERYBODY over 18 KNOWS it.

    The punchline is that Biden and Macron will punish Ukraine and reward Russia for their completely flawed politics.

    1. Donna
      November 8, 2022

      +1
      The “populist” steamroller is about to flatten the Dems in America. And in two years’ time it’s going to do the same to the CONs.

  34. Cuibono
    November 8, 2022

    I daresay that if any leader wants to wind up the Ukrainian situation it is because the time has come for the next “current thing”.
    Covid established many useful precedents and this war is establishing more…like an “unavoidable” shortage of energy.
    The fact that they want to fuss about “energy shortage” yet leave all that coal under the ground proves the b*ll*cks of it all!.
    The next “current thing”, will be “climate change” alarmism. Already ramping up.
    Maybe our global leaders are itching to get on with the agenda?

    1. Fedupsoutherner
      November 8, 2022

      Cuibono. The BBC is already ramping up the climate change alarmism. I turn of the minute I hear those two words.

    2. Lester_Cynic
      November 8, 2022

      CUIBONO

      Great comment and exactly right

  35. James Morley
    November 8, 2022

    I fully support the Ukrainian cause, and the support that the UK has given them through NATO. The aggression, medieval brutality and unashamed self interest of Putins Russia must be convincingly defeated at all cost to avoid further periodic aggression by Russia within Europe. Sadly, the UK must urgently increase its defence spending, and preparedness for war; and so must our NATO partners. NATO must be prepared to engage in direct offensive action if Russia fails to withdraw from all Ukrainian territories. The UK and Europe must permanently halt the import of fuel and other strategic raw materials replacing them from indigenous sources wherever possible. The UK must reconcile itself to a long period of relative hardship until Russia retracts from its post WWII aggressive stance against it’s imagined threat from “The West”.

    1. SM
      November 8, 2022

      +100, James.

    2. Hope
      November 8, 2022

      Utter tosh. You appear to have lost leave of your senses. Volunteer and go fight not send anyone else to corrupt Ukraine or US proxy war.

  36. IanT
    November 8, 2022

    I don’t see much point in discussing why this war occurred or how it could have been avoided. Russia invaded Ukraine expecting to walk in and take over in days. The Ukrainians fought a clever war against very poorly led and badly equipped Russian Army. It would seem that the mobilisation has been an even greater disaster. Ukraine has been devastated by the Russians, who have targeted civilian infrastructure (and civilians) relentlessly, whilst not being subject to the same damage back at home (which seems unfair somehow).

    However, the Russian economy must be in serious trouble, both because of western sanctions and because of Putins mobilisation (young men either being sent to the front or just fleeing Russia). Neither side is going to win as such but I do think that the Ukrainians have to be supported having gone this far. Take the money from the Foreign Aid budget (a good use for it for a change) and let the Ukrainians get their land back – I think they have the right, the courage and the determination to do so.

  37. Cuibono
    November 8, 2022

    Maybe the President is too busy concentrating on the Mid Terms…and the Brexit style punishment to be meted out afterwards?
    It doesn’t look good for him and there will be retribution I expect.

    1. Mark B
      November 8, 2022

      +1

  38. acorn
    November 8, 2022

    Letting the US, under the guise of NATO, extend its global hegemony plan into Russia, necessitates arranging for the inevitable hostilities, to take place by proxy, in a third countries back yard. Ukraine being the latest in a long line of previous proxies.

    NATO’s collective defence clause Article 5, restricts accepting a candidate that is at war or has disputed territories. Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for years; alas, it was designated as a proxy war ground a decade or more back.

  39. Ralph Corderoy
    November 8, 2022

    I think countries should continue to support Ukraine with weapons, training, intelligence, planning, etc. The amount of land Russia still holds is not a reflection of its strength on the ground, e.g. large chunks can be isolated from re-supply. Putin is weakened within Russia by his war and continued success by Ukraine will continue this, especially as the families of conscripts learn of their conditions, and perhaps fate. If Putin were toppled then there is an argument for ‘better the devil you know’ as none of the likely successors look any better but it is the chance for a ‘reset’ where the incomer can lay blame at Putin and strike deals with the alliance to fully withdrawal, pay repatriations, restart trade, etc.

    Cutting support to Ukraine now would strengthen Putin.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      Oh to strengthen Putin (even more) all we need to do is impose a gas price cap! Unelected Ursula is mad enough to do it!

  40. Gary
    November 8, 2022

    Whenever it ends and it will end – Russia has got a bloody nose – so there will be no need for Western countries to be too concerned any more about Russia for generations to come – also China is on notice now about how to behave in case they have ideas abouf trying it on with small countries elsewhere – so Ukraine had better just let it play out now for one year or two years more and in the meantime Nato can reconstruct the nuremburg courthouse from WW2 to accommodate Putin Lavrov the generals for the deaths and destruction they have caused and also the other advisors and ambassadors abroad etc who have been so quick about telling lies to the world – then the bill for rebuilding Ukraine can be made and presentd to the Russian people as I doubt if Putin himself will be around for very long afterwards.

    1. Mark B
      November 8, 2022

      Personally I think we have all lost.

  41. Iain Gill
    November 8, 2022

    well worth listening to what Konstantin Kisin says on the Russia/Ukraine situation, as he speaks Russian, and has been listening to what the Russian leaders have said throughout without any possibility of bias in the translation.

    a negotiated settlement with Russia is of course preferable to people continuing to die in combat.

    when Gorbachev dismantled to the Soviet block the West gave him assurances, such as Nato will not expand to the East etc, the West has dripped dripped dripped erosions of those agreements. The West is as much to blame as Russia for much of the mess.

    1. Lester_Cynic
      November 8, 2022

      CUIBONO

      Great comment and exactly right

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      Yes. But der drang nach Oosten runs deep in the German Europe psyche and of course diminished Britain is just along for the ride.

  42. Bert Young
    November 8, 2022

    Ukraine will not be able to defeat Russia without NATO support and weapon supplies . A Truce should be declared and an independent body should be established to oversee a voting process in the South East part of Ukraine – the so-called pro-Russian area . If the result is for Ukraine then Russia must accept the verdict and withdraw ; if the result is for Russia Ukraine must agree . One way or another Putin will be pushed out and ultimately punished by International Court of Justice . The sooner this happens the better .

    1. Richard II
      November 9, 2022

      Bert, what you’re suggesting has already happened, back in September. The Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. So why should ‘Putin’ be punished for giving people a chance for self-determinatiion? Plebiscites were held at the end of World War 1 to determine national boundaries, so surely they are appropriate this time too.

  43. James1
    November 8, 2022

    If Putin is not stopped in Ukraine there will be no stopping him. We learned the lesson with Hitler at a cost of 50 million dead.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 8, 2022

      Russia is a Christian capitalist country now. We are the aggressive side pushing ‘der drang nach Oosten’. Everything has changed but your commentators, JR, stick to Cato the Censors lament ‘Carthāgō dēlenda est’ because they cannot comprehend that the Russian Federation and the pro-western Putin from St Petersburg is NOT the Soviet Union.

      1. NBill Brown
        November 9, 2022

        Lynn

        So if we are the aggressor why did Sweden and Finland join NATO after Russian aggression against Ukraine

  44. ChrisS
    November 8, 2022

    Why is it that of the larger European Nations, only the UK appreciates that we have to treat Putin in exactly the same way as we dealt with Hitler ? He’s just as dangerous and one could argue even more so, with so many Nuclear weapons in his arsenal .

    The only other European countries that are as resolute as us are those that have direct experience of control by either Russia or the USSR, like Poland. It is very depressing. As ever, Italy and France cannot be relied upon but the attitude of Germany is now suspect as well. It would be even worse under Merkel, of course, given her doubtful allegances.

    Turning to the USA, Biden has been supportive, at least financially, but was too cowardly to facilitate the handover of badfly needed MIG jets to Ukraine via the Ramstein airbase – or any other for that matter.

    The real worry is the Republicans who seemed poised to take control of Congress and maybe the Senate as well.
    Donald Trump and others have said they won’t give Ukraine a blank cheque and I suspect his previously stated admiration for Putin will cause him to pressurise Ukraine to negotiate. That would be a catastrophically serious mistake. Putin cannot be seen to defeat Ukraine. OK, he might be able to hang on to the Crimean naval base, but he will have to surrender all the other territory he has overrun.

    The attitude adopted by the USA, France and Germany will be crucial to the future balance of forces in Europe.
    We can only hope they make the right decisions. I am, not hopeful

  45. Ian B
    November 8, 2022

    @johnredwood

    “Importing more LNG gas means more CO2 than burning our own domestic gas and means another big hit to our balance of payments. Relying on the goodwill of other countries has its risks. Stopping new home produced hydrocarbons costs us a lot.“

    Even today the Media is expecting Rishi to announce and take credit for something already agreed – importing more LNG. Albeit most of this is for transit to alleviate the situation elsewhere. It does highlight the neglect of Government in ensuring the UK is first and foremost secure in its own right. The UK has the resources but Government neglects them in favour of foreign patronage and exporting jobs and CO2 elsewhere. The UK Government keeps fighting its people on the back of individuals personal ego

    The Ukraine isn’t causing pain and problems for the UK People but its Government is

  46. Robert Miller
    November 8, 2022

    Take a Churchillian line with Putin who is an evil dictator bent on conquest of a neighbouring country. Support the Ukraine until victory

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      Putin is elected and has over 80% approval ratings. How does the ‘President’ of the USA compare?

  47. Norman
    November 8, 2022

    This fratricidal war is tragic, when we think of all those killed and bereaved of loved ones on both sides – and for what?
    To keep things in historical perspective, the national borders within Europe have been moving for centuries, especially the further East you go, even in recent times.
    I’m no expert, but its reported the West dabbled in regime change back in 2014, which led to serious Ukrainian aggression against its own Russophile population in the East.
    I’ve not been impressed by the adventurism of our government, and other western powers, in stoking the fire: what has it achieved, other than further carnage? Our support for the people of Ukraine could have been honourably expressed by diplomatic means, not by headlong involvement, which is both cynical and hypocritical, and could even lead to WW3.
    As with Russia, it’s probably too late now for the West to back down, and leave the situation unresolved. But it’s to be hoped the nations involved will pursue a saner course towards the restoration of a peaceful life for its peoples. However, the globalist agenda, with its powerful Net Zero delusion, is surely implicated in all of this, so beware!

    1. Richard II
      November 9, 2022

      +1

  48. Ian B
    November 8, 2022

    Of Topic, but part of the revolving day to day situation we have

    From today’s Media – The Bank of England ever up for self publicity

    “The Bank of England has called for a crackdown on risky borrowing by money managers after a market meltdown forced the central bank to intervene and rescue pension funds from collapse.”

    They were not ‘Forced’ they chose.

    Why did they need to intervene, we are still paying for the Financial Crisis of 2008 because of intervention. If there had been no intervention, yes some financial institutions would have collapsed, but today those that remain would be ‘standing to attention’ and keeping their house in order. It is as if the BofE is saying do what you want we will chuck more money at you if you slip up. Who cares its not really the Banks or Governments money.

    How many other Enterprises get to dump on the Taxpayer when they slip up? To big to fail comes the response, and will always be the response until its to late.

    The situation with Liability-driven investments (LDIs), was highlighted by the FCA way back when Andrew Bailey was at the helm and then did nothing. They(LDIs) have a place but should not be used a sole arbiter of protecting a long term investment – that is why the problem is bigger than it should be.

    The Bank of England is being cavalier with other peoples money and seems in constant preparation to say ‘Not Me Guv’ it was them.

  49. Old Salt
    November 8, 2022

    It might end when the west curtails armaments and losing to the aggressor.
    It should end with the aggressor pushed back to the pre-2014 position.
    A must short read dated 7 Nov 2022 of history for those so interested if our kind host would permit:
    Putin’s Ukraine bombing campaign will not end well (msn.com)

  50. BOF
    November 8, 2022

    How to end the US proxy war against Russia?

    I hope an end to this very dangerous war will be negotiated. Now that the Russians are entrenched in the East they will be nearly impossible to shift so Ukraine will lose/has lost that territory. NATO/US must stop its Eastward encroachment.

    The alternative is war without end or worse, war with a very nasty end.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 9, 2022

      40kg of cocaine was captured being smuggled into Ukraine via the ‘grain corridor’. So Zelensky might not be around for many more episodes in this series. Especially as he has sequestrated the assets of the Billionaire who gave him the acting job in the first place. This could end in an entirely unexpected way and for the sake of the sacrificed people of Ukraine, it can’t come too soon. Zelensky has been hiding the Ukrainian losses. Friends and relation are begining to suspect foul play.

  51. Lester_Cynic
    November 8, 2022

    I knew that my comments wouldn’t make it past moderation
    Why do you fear the truth. The information is out there and you will have to face justice one day when the people rise up as they surely will

  52. Stephanie
    November 8, 2022

    Russia must be ejected from Ukraine. The West must stop procrastinating while Ukrainians are killed and tortured and their country destroyed. I expect bravery and fortitude in the corridors of power to match that on the battlefield.

  53. Lindsay McDougall
    November 8, 2022

    Support for Ukraine must be unconditional until Ukraine has retaken Kherson and all Ukrainian land up to the northern border of Crimea, plus as much of southern and eastern Ukraine as possible. Only then will it be legitimate to expect Ukraine to negotiate. Timewise, this support must extend through this Winter and the next.

    Previously, I have said that Crimea is Russian but that was on the basis of the referendum which indicated that this was the wish of 85% of the Crimean population. However, given the way that Russia conducts referendums, we need a rerun under international supervision. Given how adept Russia is at moving populations around, it will be difficult to establish who has right to vote. Assuming that Russia gets Crimea, Ukraine has the right to demand that any Russian speaking people, mainly resident in eastern Ukraine, emigrate to Crimea or Russia.

    One aspect on which there must be no compromise is financial reparations. Russia is 100% the aggressor and must pay 100% of the costs for rebuilding Ukraine. Failure to do so will trigger indefinite continuation of sanctions and permanent confiscation of assets frozen. This should be non-negotiable unless Putin is deposed. This is our best bet to get rid of him.

    It is possible that Ukraine will refuse to negotiate and will hold out for the return of Crimea. If so, we should say that any further weapons supplied to Ukraine will be sold, not given,

  54. Wanderer
    November 8, 2022

    Some very polarised views today, interesting to see the disagreement amongst people who by and large agree on many other topics here.

    I’ve replied the direct question our host posed. Stepping back, my feeling is that the external threat from China and the internal one from the Globalists are far more significant and dangerous to our way of life and liberties than anything that might emanate from Russia.

  55. Lester_Cynic
    November 8, 2022

    Such a shame to so many of the contributors to this blog have swallowed the MSM version of the situation in Ukraine

    Never mind, when the Winter weather arrives the Russian strategy will be revealed and there’s no way Ukraine can win and the Americans will abandon them as they did in Afghanistan

  56. Bloke
    November 8, 2022

    President Biden is wobbly owing to age, and might be wobblier still on key decisions. Most of the world’s people tend to fair-minded citizens. Reaching the Russian population with factual statements and accompanying images would, in due course, persuade their nation to recognise truth and revert to doing better things effectively. A trusted social medium would be a useful vehicle if one existed and if sufficient Russians had access to such information, without restrictive interference.

  57. XY
    November 9, 2022

    I’ve only seen reports of weakness re Macron and Scholz – but that’s not new, they have always been that.

    Actually, Macron is largely responsible for this war in my opinion, trying to look like a big fish, his visits to Moscow seemed to persuade Putin that there would be no consequences to an invasion. Putin should have realised that Macron does not speak for NATO and that France is a relatively small fish in military terms.

    France and Germany are keen to see Ukraine give up its territory so that their people can return to their comfortable lives, presumably buying Russion fossil fuels. My opinion is that they are a disgrace to humanity, sympomatic of the abysmal leadership we routinely elect in the West these days.

    Putin’s expectation was that he would grab some land, alow relations to normalise, rinse and repeat. The Macrons and Scholzs of this world make that possible.

    The war has to end with Russia being removed from Ukrainian territory, including Crimea – and sanctions must stay in place for a very long time (until it becomes clear that a new Russian regime has fully transition to non-militaristic way of life – which could take decades – no more silly red reset buttons please, just hard-headed geopolitical statemanship).

    We must then provide military support in future, possibly as a NATO member while Russia is in no position to do much about it, ensuring that this does not happen again.

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