Heat Pumps are not popular

The government is keen to promote heat pumps for others, yet the uptake by Ministers and senior officials is still low. I would be more impressed if those recommending them had personal experience of them first. The German government seeking to accelerate their adoption by proposing to end oil and gas boiler sales by the end of this year has suffered a blow to its ratings. TheĀ  policyĀ  has acted as good stimulus for gas and oil boiler sales as people rush to renew before the deadline.

My electricity supplier tells me about heat pumps, presumably to encourage me. They say a heat pump costs between Ā£5500 and Ā£13000 with a government Ā£5000 grant. They warn that I might need to put in bigger radiators andĀ  pipes which would be costly, and of course propose additional spending on insulation to allow for the lower temperatures you would otherwise get. They say the hot water would be 50-55 degreesĀ  not 60 to 65 degrees which they propose for a gas boiler. They suggest running costs would b e lower than a gas boiler.

I made enquiries for one for my small London flat where I am not allowed a gas boiler.Ā  I was told they cannot supply one as I am not allowed to place a box or pipe on the outside of the building and am not on the ground floor to allow ground source heat. Flats presentĀ  a major setback for the heat pump movement, as many are unable to adapt to them.

Some users who have tried heat pumps report low levels of heating in cold snaps. Some report large electricity bills as they try to get their water and rooms up to temperature against a background of much dearer energy tariffs for electricity than for gas. Some experience difficulties in getting the systems to work. Installation is more complex and entails more work to the house than simply changing gas boilers.

These products are aĀ  hard sell. They are dear. On windless days the heat pumps require a lot of fossil fuel to be burned in power stations to keep them working. I will wait to see how many Ministers and senior officials do buy them and listen to their experiences if they still want to recommend them.

141 Comments

  1. Stred
    June 4, 2023

    20 years ago I put in an air conditioner in my house in the South of France. It was so a reverse heat pump which was quite efficient. My neighbors did the same, but they were all useless after October. They never produced enough heat to warm the space or water and needed electric or carbon heating to supplement the background heat. Now that electricity prices in the UK have gone the same way as Germany, heat pumps are even more useless. Why Greens are so impractical and innumetate is an unanswered question.

    1. DOM
      June 4, 2023

      It’s not about heat pumps, sustainability or cost. In time you’ll get to know what it’s all about and politicians won’t be on your side when you need them most

      1. Cuibono
        June 4, 2023

        If I take your meaningā€¦.
        It most certainly isnā€™t and never has been.
        We have wasted years ( as probably planned) being diverted by the minutiae.
        Discussing whether this car or whatever might do xyz.
        As I have thought and said since the very beginning.
        The aim is to divest us of everything and to then control us beyond any nightmare.
        The powers that should not be have done this throughout history leaving us with crumbs.
        And now they have come for those!
        Greed and cruelty without end.

        1. glen cullen
          June 4, 2023

          I wish our politcians would just leave us alone, we don’t need saving and we don’t need your social engineering to make a perfect society

          1. Cuibono
            June 4, 2023

            Oh yes! How I echo that sentiment.
            I feel harassed and hated to death!

      2. Lifelogic
        June 4, 2023

        Google Dr. Clare Craig, South Korea, Myocarditis and Hart Group for more information. The figures likely to be similarly dire in the UK. They even wanted to give them to 6 month old babies!

      3. Donna
        June 4, 2023

        We saw from March 2020 to June 2022 just how much “our” politicians were on our side as SAGE and the Government stripped us of our civil liberties.

        I remember Sir Charles Walker standing up in the House of Commons and challenging the Government extending the Covid Emergency Powers; hardly anyone else did.

        1. hefner
          June 4, 2023

          With his pint of milk? Ridiculous.

          1. Donna
            June 5, 2023

            He spoke up for people who lived in high-rise flats, possibly with a couple of kids, locked up for weeks with no gardens or facilities to home educate them. The only one who did – so credit where it’s due.

            The Government, most of the other MPs in the chamber and those luxuriating at home, ignored him. Just as they ignored anyone else speaking out against the authoriarianism.

          2. Lynn Atkinson
            June 5, 2023

            More courage and reason on a pint of milk than many with a barrel of whisky inside them. Only a fool would call that ā€˜ridiculousā€™.

    2. Cuibono
      June 4, 2023

      Exactly the same here.
      We got one because we can no longer have windows open in summer thanks to the noise and many shades of smoke (!) from govt. imposed rental neighbours.
      When it was SO killingly cold in winter we tried it ( for the freezing upstairs)ā€¦whereā€™s the heat?? Same thing with a new bathroom wall heater. Switch it on ā€¦slight warmthā€¦whirr, whirr, grindā€¦.then as a prearranged nanny control IT SHUTS ITSELF OFF!

  2. Lynn Atkinson
    June 4, 2023

    Anyone in Government, lobby movement funded by Govt and the civil service advocating anything which is an untried, untested departure from the norm (specifically air-source heat pumps, EVs, and no more oil and gas), should have to prove that they have abandoned the standard means of heating, transport or whatever, before they ā€˜get a licence to promote their alternativeā€™.
    Letā€™s see some ā€˜regulationā€™ and ā€˜incomeā€™ from these people, which of course, would include ā€˜Charitiesā€™.
    Police should have to inspect the licences at all demonstrations and arrest anyone who does not have one – if we do that to people trying to earn a living, surely there can be no objection to licensing these voluntary activities?
    And to pre-empt objections citing Brexit, I want to point out that self-determination is the norm and it would have been the Remainers that had to be licensed.

  3. Wanderer
    June 4, 2023

    Most people who rent their home won’t be very interested in this topic. With regulations that say their property must be highy insulated and easy to get warm, they assume they’ll be OK. Who cares what heats the home? If it’s cold then complain and the landlord has to fix it.

    What they don’t realise is that landlords will sell off the private rented housing stock. In the public sector they will be fine, taxpayers will be forced to pick up the bill. But unless we build far more public housing to make up for the private sector loss the housing crisis will escalate. So we’ll build more.

    Of course if you own your home, then no-one will be helping you. This heat pump scam is another way of pushing everyone into a situation where they “own nothing” and are totally reliant on a Big Brother government for their existence.

    The pros and cons of heat pumps are irrelevant. It’s being forced to buy them that is the problem. The real issue is creeping totalitarianism.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      The main reasons tenants flats are cold is that they cannot afford to heat them due to rip off net zero energy market rigging. This also causes damp and condensation issues.

    2. Mark
      June 4, 2023

      People who rent will start getting very interested in this topic. They will soon realise that the stock of homes for rent is declining as landlords are unable to afford upgrading properties to EPC C at a cost that can be covered by a modest rent hike. The availability of property for rent will fall very sharply when it is forbidden to let it to new tenants without EPC C. Scarcity will drive rents sky high. Existing tenants will find themselves evicted from properties that do not meet the standard. There will be a major housing crisis.
      The plan is to enforce this from 1 April 2025 for new tenancies, and from 1 April 2028 for existing tenancies.

      1. Cuibono
        June 4, 2023

        Agree.
        What will happen to the houses?
        Canā€™t just mothball them because of council tax ( no concession for unoccupied now I think?)
        Will huge companies buy them up for a song, spend a mint and then re rent?
        But then the rents will be really huge.
        Maybe they will just be demolishedā€¦I think that getting rid of older houses is part of the planā€¦

  4. Mark B
    June 4, 2023

    Good morning.

    Some report large electricity bills . . .

    I wonder if this also includes the cost of charging their BEV’s ? If not, then there are some hefty bill. Oh wait no, there is a Price Cap, so the rich will not have to pay for their selfishness. Mrs. Sunak will be pleased.

    I will wait to see how many Ministers and senior officials do buy them and listen to their experiences if they still want to recommend them.

    Well done, Sir John – Hold a mirror up to these people who seek to ruin our lives.

    1. Christine
      June 4, 2023

      Where are all the investigative journalists holding a mirror to the lives of these politicians and protestors? Not a peep out off them. It’s time those “do as I say not as I do brigade” have a spotlight shone on their lives. I’m sick and tired of being dictated to by those with vested interests.

    2. John+C.
      June 4, 2023

      There is no price cap. It’s a complete misnomer.

  5. Bloke
    June 4, 2023

    Heat pump energy causes a complicated entanglement of nuisance. Avoid heat pumps to save it.

    1. Ian+wragg
      June 4, 2023

      Not to mention the enormous storage tank required to store the hwat or the immersion heater required to get bathwater above legionnaires temperatures.
      Heat pumps are a sick joke encouraged by a sick government.

  6. David in Kent
    June 4, 2023

    Our daughter in Canada is very pleased with her heat pump and they are generally very popular. On enquiry I find however that it is for reasons which are generally inapplicable in England; along with winter heat you get summer air conditioning which is not really needed here, even their older houses in the cities with a brick veneer are wood framed and relatively well insulated, many houses use warm air circulation rather than radiators.
    In order to work as well we would have to add a lot of insulation, we would probably need a big, ugly unit on the wall to deliver the heat in a limited number of rooms and we’d need a place to put the outdoor unit which would be problematic in city houses.
    Would it not be a better policy here to progressively switch the bulk of our housing from gas to hydrogen heat? We would still have to add the insulation but we already have much of the infrastructure in place even if some would needed to be upgraded. The hydrogen could be cheaply produced from the surplus electricity generated in windy and sunny days and from nuclear when we finally take the decision to invest in SMRs.

    1. Cuibono
      June 4, 2023

      It might also be a great idea to replace all metal cutlery with wood or plasticā€¦or hey! Why not just use our fingers in future? We could have a govt. edict to ensure such.

    2. Iain Moore
      June 4, 2023

      Hydrogen isn’t a ‘fuel’ as we consider natural gas, it has to be made, with the result there is an inefficiency there in that you lose energy creating Hydrogen, and lose more energy converting Hydrogen into heat at your home.

      1. Lifelogic
        June 4, 2023

        Exactly and green hydrogen especially is hugely inefficient, very expensive and wastes a huge amount of the energy too. Hydrogen is expensive and can be dangerous to store one made as well. Electricity to hydrogen back to electricity would waste at least 60% of the energy in the process.

        1. iain gill
          June 5, 2023

          Oh I dunno.

          Using solar to turn water into hydrogen can be a sensible way to store solar energy for later use. Not much more inefficient than trying to store the energy in batteries or whatever. Or pumping water uphill in a hydro scheme for later use to produce hydro electricity. They all have inefficiencies in conversion.

          The key is getting a balance, and not putting all your eggs in one basket.

    3. IanT
      June 4, 2023

      Most Canadian homes are timber framed and heavily insulated. They also normally have basements which makes it much easier to pipe warm air around and house the large boilers/heaters needed. My father-in-law built a house out in the country and although it was a two storey building, the lower half was effectively buried by earth works bulldozed up after construction. It looked like a bungalow built on a small hill. The whole house was very well insulated and heated by an oil & wood burner that kept everything very toasty. You could be downstairs in the winter (20 below) and just be in shirt sleeves.
      My 1960’s house has a combination of solid concrete and suspended wooden floors (that have external air bricks to stop rot). My neighbours houses are now 100 and 120 years old respectively. None of us are going to be able to install an air pump without very costly & disruptive building work. This is probably true of a large percentage of existing UK properties. We tend to have mild winters here (by other peoples standards) and have built our homes accordingly. I was wearing two jumpers this winter and could only dream of wandering around in my shirt sleeves…

    4. Original Richard
      June 4, 2023

      David in Kent : ā€œThe hydrogen could be cheaply produced from the surplus electricity generated in windy and sunny days and from nuclear when we finally take the decision to invest in SMRs.ā€

      For wind turbines to provide reliable power using hydrogen as a store of electrical energy when the wind doesnā€™t blow requires an installed wind capacity of 7 times the average demand. So it is definitely not ā€œcheapā€.

      Nuclear is the only option to provide affordable, abundant and reliable low CO2 emission energy. The fact that it is ignored is proof that Net Zero has absolutely nothing to do with anthropogenic CO2 emissions and instead is simply a tool to impose impoverishment upon the country leading to authoritarian rule.

      Note that hydrogen if used as a replacement for natural gas :
      Corrodes the existing steel piping used for the bulk transportation of the natural gas/methane.
      Needs to be pumped at 3 times the volume of methane to achieve the same energy flow.
      Is a very small molecule and leaks badly.
      Is highly inflammable and not suitable for domestic use.

    5. Mark
      June 4, 2023

      There is no way to produce hydrogen cheaply. It is a false analysis to consider that hydrogen is cheap if surplus electricity is used. The problem is that the surplus electricity requires investment in surplus capacity to produce it, and that needs to pay for itself. If you subsidise the input to the hydrogen industry the subsidy simply appears on your electricity bill or your taxes. The investments required in extra transmission capacity and in electrolyser capacity are also substantial. But they would only get intermittent use, because surpluses only occur part of the time and vary enormously. That pushes up the costs. In any case it will never be economic to cater for the higher levels of surplus that occur too rarely to be worth providing for, so there will be curtailment costs to pay for. Then there is the investment required to make the gas distribution network hydrogen compatible, and likewise for appliances.

      Hydrogen has only become the latest imaginary solution since it became evident that trying to balance intermittent renewables with batteries is infeasible on grounds of cost and resource availability (an all renewables electric UK might need 100TWh of storage at a cost of Ā£400bn per TWh every 10 years). It is still in reality just another unicorn.

  7. Donna
    June 4, 2023

    How many members of the House of Frauds, Ministers and MPs have an EV as their sole car?

    How many have installed a heat pump, at their own cost, in their primary or secondary residence?

    How many have restricted their flights overseas (hint the House of Frauds recently rejected a proposal that Their Fraudships should limit themselves to two overseas flights a year)?

    Has the PM turned off the heating for his family’s private swimming pool in order to “save the planet?”

    Net Zero and the so-called “green” products they are trying to foist on us, which aren’t in the slightest bit eco friendly, is a scam. It’s about the Elite’s ability to CONTROL you and restrict everything you do. But not them …. they’re special people …… more EQUAL than you.

    Watch what they do …..

    1. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      Donna, all interesting questions.

      The green councillors, MP, MSPs in particular. Do they restrict themselves to two flights per year and none under 2.5 hours that could be done by train? Do they only use one EV car and public transport.

      These JustStopOil protestors we should remove their driving licences, restrict their flights and ensure they buy heat pumps first to lead the way.

      1. Donna
        June 4, 2023

        Dale Vince, owner of Ecotricity and Ā£1.5 million donor to the Labour Party just before Starmer pledged to ban any new gas and oil licences in the north sea, is a financial sponsor of Just Stop Oil.

        There have been media reports that the Just Stop Oil activists are being paid to protest. If this is the case, is the income being taxed/declared for tax purposes? HMRC should investigate.

        The law on protests should be changed to make paid protesting illegal.

        1. a-tracy
          June 4, 2023

          Theyā€™ll probably just claim theyā€™re earning less than Ā£12570 pa, but yes it should be checked.

          1. Gabe
            June 4, 2023

            But are they claiming benefits and are the people paying them running PAYE and paying NI? Are they insured should they get injured. People that are delayed should be able to sue them and sue whoever is paying them to block the roads. They should also be able to sue the police for failure to clear them of the road amd arrest them all. Thus deterring ever more such actions.

      2. Timaction
        June 4, 2023

        …….and direct them to the Chinese embassy or suggest walking their to actually impact their bogy gas. It might give them time to read the real science during stop overs. Tory Government exporting our jobs, industry and importing the same on the alter of net stupid. When are they being brought to book for their crass incompetence and stupidity? Let’s ban fracking, oil and gas extraction in the North sea. Ban coal mines but import all this stuff. This is the stuff of nightmares. MSM never challenge the fools with the stark staring bleedin obvious.

    2. Mickey Taking
      June 4, 2023

      Animal Farm is arriving and fast.

  8. Bloke
    June 4, 2023

    Heat pumps seem a superficial way of drilling far down into the earth and heating rooms with a copper conductor rod, at similarly wasteful expense.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Copper is rather expensive now as is drilling deep holes for such a plan!

      Ground source heat pumps in new well designed properties can just about make sense especially if no gas supply is available, but much more expensive than gas or oil to install, maintain and even to run. Better suited to properties in continuous use.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        June 4, 2023

        Generally ā€˜ground source heat pumpsā€™ refer to water pipes set a few feet underground, a few feet apart and winding up and down your land for as far as possible. Better still of course, is adding several hundred meters of water pipe in a river/lake/sea if you have access to water.
        Geothermal, which is effective involves 400 foot deep vertical drill and heat harvested from the very warm dcentre of the earth. Geothermal is expensive but works.

        1. Mark
          June 4, 2023

          There are a few parts of the country where geothermal works. Cornwall, where the rock is heated in part by radioactive decay, and the district heating project in Southampton with its wells drilled near the Central Station spring to mind. Fracking required for best effect.

          1. hefner
            June 4, 2023

            Guardian, 02/06/2023, ā€˜Network of geothermal power stations ā€˜could help level up UKā€™ā€™.
            Bassetlaw, East Lindsey, Redcar & Cleveland, Hartlepool, Middlesborough, Northumberland are areas where geothermal could help.
            thinkgeoenergy.com, 02/06/2023, ā€˜UK MP publishes report on UKā€™s deep geothermal potentialā€™.

          2. Mark
            June 4, 2023

            I have read through Dr Mullan’s report and the accompanying appendices. The estimated potential is not really very large, and remains rather uncertain. His Figure 7 projection shows a potential of about 550MW which would have the virtue of being continuous (although people would not want more than hot water in summer, so either other customers would have to be found, or well flows scaled back in summer time). Rounding up it is 5TWh a year, or 5 LNG tankers – a few drops in the ocean of energy demand. The cost he estimates at Ā£1.6bn, yet he includes nothing for well workovers and re-siting or ongoing maintenance and defouling of pipes etc. but he does mention the need for subsidy mechanisms – so the expectation is this would be another green boondoggle, rather than a commercially sound investment (which is why there has been no big attempt to exploit this resource so far). The Eden Project has just had to drill and frack new wells to keep its greenhouses warm, having exhausted the potential of the originals. He does comment that deep drilling is expensive, which is why it tends to be the province of high energy output oil and gas. He elides over the need to frack to ensure a good water flow: both the Eden Project and the United Downs project in Cornwall have fracked. Here is a chart showing the seismic events caused by fracking at United Downs Carharrack project

            https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/P5OE0/1/

            Of course, part of the economics for United Downs lies in the potential to extract lithium from the brine, a benefit not really available outside Cornwall.

            I am not against the idea in principle, especially as it would act as a pathfinder for reconsidering the potentially much more valuable resource of shale gas by making fracking acceptable at the necessary level, and also providing more drill core evidence of potential. Indeed, I hope to hear that United Downs can extract lithium at economic cost: we could do with the resource, preferably not mortgaged in advance to China.

      2. Know-Dice
        June 4, 2023

        A Swedish friend of mine has a ground source heat pump, but along with that he has a log burner in his basement that heats several 500kg “stones” that keeps the core of his property up to temperature. You will probably find that very few of our Continental friends have heat pumps as their single source of heat.

    2. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      Interesting we also wondered where all the refrigerant gases are going to come from and what impact are they going to have at the end of their life.

  9. Lynn Atkinson
    June 4, 2023

    Ironically my brother-in-law, a ā€˜petrol-headā€™ who has an electrical and electronic degree from Queenā€™s (details for LL) wrote for The Guardian (I know!) yesterday that:
    ā€˜although electric cars have zero emissions when on the road, their actual manufacture, according to research by Volvo, suggests greenhouse gas emissions during production are 70 per cent higher than petrol vehiclesā€™
    He says much else, having owned a Hybrid for 18 years and EV for almost a decade. So this is all old hat, not new and shiny and ā€˜the honeymoon is overā€™ apparently.
    I never fell for the scam at all having driven a car in Ireland during the ā€˜70ā€™s crisis which had an alternative fuel tank (Kerosene) and could switch from the petrol to the other via a number of quite serious bucks, using what was once the overdrive switch. Very disruptive if the horse box was on tow with horses scrambling for their feet and kicking themselves.

    1. Sharon
      June 4, 2023

      Lynn,

      Itā€™s okay, Rowan has written in the Telegraph as well!!

      Is he really your brother, or just the same surname by coincidence?

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        June 4, 2023

        My husband is his brother.

    2. Berkshire Alan
      June 4, 2023

      Lynn
      Yes read part of that article yesterday (not a Guardian reader) as it was featured on a news feed website. It also went on to say that the raw materials for battery production are rare and toxic, nothing new, but an interesting article from clearly a renewables supporter, who feels they have been somewhat misled, since the promises do not stand up to their own real life experience.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        June 4, 2023

        Exactly. The most disappointed people are those who bought in. I think Rowanā€™s Comments are interesting because he is an electrical (well, anybody can be an electrical engineer – itā€™s the easy stuff) and electronic (now we are talking) engineer who wanted to support the ā€˜newā€™ technology, well new, years ago when he got his car. He drives all new vehicles however so he will have taken the latest ones into account when concluding that they are a disappointment.

  10. Rolf Norfolk
    June 4, 2023

    I read that heat pumps are liable to being stolen and because they are sited outside the dwelling some insurers are refusing to compensate.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Indeed more valuable and less messy than stealing the oil from the oil tank. Plus they now do not want to count things a burglary in the crime figures unless from without the house.

    2. Bloke
      June 4, 2023

      Fixing items to an outside wall encourages theft. If you want to dispose of a dodgy fridge, dump it in the garden and chain it to the wall. Some thief will steal it and take it to a fence out of reach.

  11. BOF
    June 4, 2023

    To repeat. We have new council houses nearby with ground source heating. Engineers were back and forth all winter trying to get the heating to work properly, to no avail and in spite of the solar panels, electricity bills are very high. Residents are not happy and were not even warm with one young couple planning to move out.

    With junk technology like this methinks you will be waiting a long time for the dozens of ministers and hordes of senior civil servants to show the way.

  12. Mike Wilson
    June 4, 2023

    Yet, whenever any politician is interviewed about how to achieve net zero, they always include ā€˜heat pumpā€™ in their parroted answer and NO journalist ever questions them and points out they are completely impractical apart from for new builds that are very highly insulated.

    That said, I worry about new builds. Both my sons are in new builds. One is in the construction industry. He tells me that as part of building regulations the house is tested when it is finished by placing some device over the letterbox and pressuring the air to make sure the house does not leak air. Which is why new builds have mastic everywhere. The joint where the skirting hits the floor is sealed with mastic. Internally all around the windows and doors. Etc. The result is an airtight house which, to my mind is very unhealthy.

    1. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      I hope these people know to open their windows regularly.

    2. Dave Andrews
      June 4, 2023

      With such a hermetic environment they will need to install dehumidifiers to stop damp and mould, CO2 scrubbers to keep the air breathable and oxygen cylinders to replace what they use. Before you know it, they’ve got a Saturn V command module. How very space age.

    3. Bloke
      June 4, 2023

      Healthy homes need ventilation to breathe, as do we as occupants.
      Mastic is waterproof and effective at sealing dampness within to mould.

    4. Lynn Atkinson
      June 4, 2023

      You need a heat-exchange system in these hermetically sealed houses. They change the air once every couple of hours.
      Makes a joke of Air-bricks though – the Authorities and experts spend more time contradicting themselves than anything else.

      1. Berkshire Alan
        June 5, 2023

        Lynn
        And they all need power to work !

  13. MPC
    June 4, 2023

    We should always remember that all this environmental extremism has been mandated by the Conservatives. Not the Green Party or the Labour Party.

    1. BOF
      June 4, 2023

      MPC
      Indeed. Conservatives have done their utmost to be more socialist than Labour, greener than the Greens and more authoritarian than Marxists.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        June 4, 2023

        And succeeded on all counts!

  14. Nigl
    June 4, 2023

    I believe a hot water tank is needed, what about modern homes with a combi boiler, another expense?

    Yes larger radiators and pipe work plus underfloor heating. So with oak flooring how do you do that without ripping it up and replacing it?

    Finally a cost never mentioned the make good re dec.

    So my cost is in the 30k bracket and no certainty it will work effectively.

    I am insulated up to hilt including slowly upgrading to triple glazing another unmentioned 10k. Itā€™s still gets very cold Ministers parrot it as the fix all.

    HMG is in total denial or flagrantly telling porkies. And guess what? No one believes them.

    1. Bloke
      June 4, 2023

      Leakage in underfloor heating pipework can present a major nuisance.
      Its waste might take years to detect while damage adds.

  15. agricola
    June 4, 2023

    Another ill conceived idea from PPEs and lawyers that has no connection with reality. Task engineers and scientists with producing hydrogen on an industrial scale using the intermittent electricity from windmills and then progressively introducing it to the domestic and industrial gas mix. Stop listening to those who say it cannot be done, they are the ones who do not want it done. Give them a bottle of woad and send them packing.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Green hydrogen is bonkers vastly expensive and hugely energy wasteful. Converting electricity a few more valuable fuel than gas energy into gas energy – bonkers! Wind energy still produces lots of CO2 too if that bothers you in construction, maintenance, connection to the grid and back up.

      1. Lifelogic
        June 4, 2023

        a “fuel” not few

      2. agricola
        June 4, 2023

        As to hydrogen whatever colour you deem it, has never been developed or produced on the industrial scale necessary to begin adding it to domestic gas, though the boiler makers are anticipating it in their latest products. I would add that the japanese are also developing hydrogen powered ICEs and hydrogen powered EVs as are Porsche. All of whose judgements I would back against your bonkers verdict.
        Frankly CO2 does not bother me, plant food as you frequently point out. It is just the satan of windmill lovers, and other green zealots. Hydrogen production is just one way of using the unreliable power from windmills. If you want reliable electrical generation, pending fusion energy, then SMRs are the answer if ever this government and scribes in charge start making decisions. Currently energy production is an un-funny joke in the UK.

    2. Mark
      June 4, 2023

      I see that Mr Shapps has decided to abandon the attempt to add Ā£120 a year to gas bills to subsidise the hydrogen kick starter programme for very limited quantities. What he has not said is how he now plans to raise the money, or if he is reconsidering whether it really makes sense to go ahead with it. If he really considered the economics he would adopt the latter course and cancel it. However, DESNZ/BEIS/National Grid/CCC never consider the economics. They carry on in a fantasy land. They will find out what reality is in due course.

      Reply I regard dropping the hydrogen tax as a win.

      1. Mark
        June 5, 2023

        So do I. But we need to stop the pretence that green hydrogen is an economic solution to renewables surpluses that have to be paid for. Curtailment is cheaper, even if it rather blatantly increases the cost of the useful portion of renewables output, making levelised cost estimates pure fantasy.

  16. Michael Saxton
    June 4, 2023

    Good points Sir John. Heat pumps are also noisy. Our local gas boiler provider is an expert installer of ground and air source heat pumps. He warns us against having air source heat pumps citing the reasons you have described plus noise. Ground source heat pumps however, we are advised, are very expensive and efficient but require land and space to install. We donā€™t have sufficient space and in any event we installed a brilliant new gas boiler two years ago when our 25 year old boiler failed. Yet again government is not listening.

  17. Des
    June 4, 2023

    Unfortunately like almost all government policies the heat pump obsession is retrograde, pointless and impossible. Todays career politicians know little about real life, engineering or plain common sense and are willing to take orders from foreign groups with highly questionable aims so we get an endless stream of stupidity.
    We need to face up to the fact that the ruling class are insane and dangerous.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Indeed Energy Secretaries like Graham Stuart Philosophy and Law Selwyn but failed his degree and chair of the climate committee a historian. Can we just have some decent engineers and physicists please.

      1. Mark
        June 4, 2023

        I believe Lord Deben’s listed home is exempt from requirements to have a heat pump. He seems to have some old fashioned open log fires from photos taken there.

        1. Lifelogic
          June 4, 2023

          Do as I say not as I do then – rather like King Charles then and most ministers on their private jets!

    2. Mickey Taking
      June 4, 2023

      ‘Up on the roof’ written by Carole King / Gerry Goffin for James Taylor, but made famous by The Drifters. 1963.
      When this old world starts getting me down
      And people are just too much for me to face
      I climb way up to the top of the stairs
      And all my cares just drift right into space
      On the roof, it’s peaceful as can be
      And there the world below can’t bother me
      Let me tell you now
      When I come home feelin’ tired and beat
      I go up where the air is fresh and sweet (up on the roof)
      I get away from the hustling crowd
      And all that rat race noise down in the street (up on the roof)
      On the roof, the only place I know
      Where you just have to wish to make it so
      Let’s go up on the roof (up on the roof)
      At night the stars put on a show for free
      And darling, you can share it all with me
      I keep a-tellin’ you
      Right smack dab in the middle of town
      I’ve found a paradise that’s trouble proof (up on the roof)
      And if this world starts getting you down
      There’s room enough for two.

      It doesn’t seem much of a solution to the woes anymore!

  18. Cuibono
    June 4, 2023

    Have they actually thought of the noise?
    I know that the govt. just loves the constant racket of endless building and road ā€œimprovementā€ work and the blaring racket from moving and stationary vehicles. And fireworks, they just LOVE those, even though they are hugely polluting. Not to mention all the noisy garden paraphernalia which is stuffed into impossibly small spaces ( hot tubs which only those on benefits can now afford, delight us all through the night.).
    But just thinkā€¦.the NOISE of thousand upon thousand heat pumps stretching across the whole countryā€¦all, per force, running at the same time.
    Was Johnson preparing us for this with his saucepan banging?

    1. graham1946
      June 4, 2023

      As I said a couple of weeks ago, if this is implemented in big numbers, with all the noise, there will be an explosion of mental health problems which will dwarf Covid. As we don’t spend anything like enough on mental health already (shaming of the politicians anxious to spend money on any old fad, but not something essential) we won’t know what has hit us. Luckily, it ain’t going to happen unless some stupid government makes it compulsory and even then there are not enough manufacturers and technicians to install the things, just the rip off merchants will make a packet and depart the scene, leaving the public up the creek.

      1. Cuibono
        June 4, 2023

        I do hope youā€™re right about it not happening!

  19. Berkshire Alan
    June 4, 2023

    The simple fact is heat pumps “PROPERLY INSTALLED” are absolutely fine in new build homes, providing the initial calculations were correct.
    They are not suitable for many existing homes for the reasons previously given, underfloor pipe diameters, radiator sizes, location of a suitable exterior wall, lack of insulation, background noise, etc
    Insulation in most cases is usually very cost effective, but again should be installed correctly, and would certainly make existing systems more efficient.
    The Heating Ventilation and Plumbing industry say that the government will fail massively on its targets for heat Pump installation, due to the lack of properly trained engineers, the cost, and for the reasons outlined above.
    Apparently they are great for swimming pools, as the immediate heat requirement is not as critical as is required for heating a home.
    Last estimate I had for an Air Source heat pump in our own house was Ā£20-25,000 which did not included replacement radiators of which we have many, and pipework which runs in a screed /concrete floor, an additional huge cost as It would mean taking up all floor coverings digging out the existing screed/ pipework and re-screeding the floor. The timber floors to the first floor would also need to be taken up, again after all floor coverings removed.
    Why would you want to outlaw gas when it is on tap, easily available, has a proven record, and does not need to be imported from abroad.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Good for swimming pools, as you are not pumping the heat too much often in summer perhaps from 15C to just 30C but pumping from -5C to 60C in winter for a house and hot water is much less efficient. See Carnot efficiency and COP factors.

      1. Berkshire Alan
        June 4, 2023

        Lifelogic
        Agree with you about air source pumps in winter, but surely if you are installing a pool or building a house, you would put in Ground Source pipework at the same time as completing groundworks, as the ground heat temperature is nearly constant all year round.
        Just for info, we do not have a pool ourselves, but we do have use of one at the villa we rent every year, which does have a heat pump, and works very well, the owner informs us it is very cost effective when compared to other methods.

        1. Lifelogic
          June 4, 2023

          Indeed for new build (so long as you have a suitable garden area for the ground source hear collection pipes) but not cheap at all – plus you need larger more expensive and often more intrusive radiators too.

    2. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      I wonder if King Charles buys one for Buckingham Palace to heat his pool there? I wonder just how green our King is, how many solar panels and windmill he has invested in, how many heat pumps, one of the Countries wealthiest people with the biggest green credentials should be leading the way and showing us the savings and benefits.

    3. Dave Andrews
      June 4, 2023

      A new estate on the way back from a supermarket is being built with no solar panels on the rooves, no EV charging facilities and no evidence of air source heat pumps (gardens too small for ground source). No doubt insulation will be good to modern building regs.
      If the ban on gas boilers in 2025 in new builds makes new houses impractically expensive to build, that will be a win in my book. Perhaps the local facilities in schools, GPs and sewage capacity will have a chance to catch up.

    4. Mark
      June 4, 2023

      Insulation is cost effective in a limited number of cases. If there is no loft insulation the payback time is short. But if you already have 6 inches there, increasing it to the now recommended 10 inches/25cm will take a long time to pay for itself, especially if you have to re-board it. Door and window seals are cheap and cost effective, although ventilation and change of air are really needed. Double glazing has a long payback period. The only thing that can be said is that high energy prices do shorten payback periods for insulation. The reality is that much if the low hanging fruit is already implemented, and the economics of retrofitting further improvements are often weak or negative – I.e. the measures never pay off before they have to be redone.

    5. Hat man
      June 4, 2023

      Why would you want to outlaw gas, Alan? Because you’re not working for this country’s interests. That’s all.

    6. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      But will installing heat pumps reduce the global temperature enough to stop the seas rising ā€¦.which is the stated aim of the climate change committee

      1. glen cullen
        June 4, 2023

        Or will the global temperatures only reduce when every house in china installs a heat pump

  20. Lifelogic
    June 4, 2023

    “Heat Pumps are not popular” nor very effective, nor cheaper to run and v. expensive to install and not very convenient. Tepid and slow to heat up a cold house so have to often be left on. Electric supply also usually need beefing up and electricity costs 3+ times what gas does so (even with the COP factor) more expensive to run and far more to maintain.

    A bit noisy with the fans very often too.

  21. a-tracy
    June 4, 2023

    When i think of good technology changes over the years, yes there has always been a little resistance to change but early adopters usually enthused about the new and people followed along when they needed to replace products at the end of their life i.e. Twin tub washing machines replaced with automatic washers, bagless vacuum cleaners fantastic in small homes, microwaves to speed up cooking times, composite housing soffits to replace soft wood rubbish the builders use with much less maintenance, smart phones in total replacement of landlines. E-mails instead of fax, post and telex. The way we receive films and shows on streaming in place of videos and box set dvds. My husband is always an early enthusiastic adopter of the new.

    However, we donā€™t want a couple of big ugly units on the outside of our home, we donā€™t want pipes replacing and radiators and the resulting redecoration without significant savings or benefits and there are none. At the moment is this more to do with pumping money into Germany than solving heating problems? Dyson where are you with your British engineers, help us out mate.

    1. Lifelogic
      June 4, 2023

      Dyson is a good man and talks a lot of sense but there is something to be said for the convenience of vacuum cleaners having bags to hold all the dust for disposal – the main problem was the manufacturers charged far to much for the bags and people kept them far to long so they bunged up. But the bag less ones were very expensive too. Dyson’s jet engine had dryers are rather dire (as they really need ear protectors to use them) give me a silent paper towel or a real towel please.

      Let tech evolve naturally as customers choose to buy it. Perhaps some help with R&D but government tax breaks and subsidies to rig the market and push roll out of duff technology before it really works is bonkers. You just get lots of duff tech littered all over the place that soon gets scrapped once the subsidies go. It is unfair competition and rigged markets.

      1. a-tracy
        June 4, 2023

        Well theyā€™re paying British fitters to fit heat pumps to train in Germany so itā€™s happening.

        As for noise from Dysons, I donā€™t find my Dyson any noisier than other other vacuums Iā€™ve owned and its much faster to use, efficient at picking up and empties easily without a mess. I also love my Dyson hairdryer a christmas treat off my husband, very fast and efficient cuts drying time in half. I quite like the Dyson hand-dryers you put your hands inside lift up and down and theyā€™re dry but someone told me recently they spread germs because they arenā€™t cleaned often enough in service stations and places that use them eww. The later adopters of bagless vacuums have caught up now and the lower priced shark is also recommended to me, and the hoover bagless.

        If I could fit solar panels that stored the energy and I didnā€™t have to rely on the national grid Iā€™d go for them over a heat pump. I wish now Iā€™d had underfloor heating when my husband wanted to but I worried the pipes would leak or stop working and weā€™d have to lift all the floor tiles to get them fixed, but Iā€™d like cost effective heaters in skirting boards in place of wall radiators, the condensing units on the wall for air conditioning arenā€™t great and often break down my friend had one leaking a considerable amount of water everywhere resulting in a new carpet and redecoration after dehumidifying it for several days.

        1. Ashley
          June 4, 2023

          @ a-tracy

          It is the jet engine hand driers that half deafen me.

          As to ā€œIf I could fit solar panels that stored the energy and I didnā€™t have to rely on the national grid Iā€™d go for them over a heat pump.ā€ Solar gives you electricity mainly in Summer around midday so it need a lot of very expensive storage to save it until winter. Unless you own two lakes one up a hill. But then if you heat, hot water and cook with gas and use LED lighting and efficient fridge freezers you do not need much electricity at all.

          You can get Stirling gas driven electricity generators that do combined heat and power. Makes more sense than burning gas at the power station to generate electricity to power heat pump. Thus wasting all that heat at the power station.

          A combination of gas, a Stirling engine electricity generator and a heat pump too can sometimes make good sense for some properties.

  22. Iain Moore
    June 4, 2023

    Bad enough when our ‘expert’ politicians tried to sell us diesel cars, which all went wrong when particulate matter become the issue, and if done by an industry would have resulted in a mis-selling scandal, but now they have become Climate Change zealots, they are best given a very wide berth, the sort you would give any God botherer trying to sell you salvation, and certainly not part with any cash on their word.

    1. Mark
      June 4, 2023

      Modern diesel cars with particulate filters and adblue systems produce extremely low levels of pollution. Demonising them is not justified by anything other than an attempt to force those who can afford it to run EVs and the rest to shank’s pony.

      1. glen cullen
        June 4, 2023

        Spot On

  23. Lifelogic
    June 4, 2023

    So tax to death, currency debaser Sunak now wants to cut taxes by “as much as 2 pence” in the pound before the next national election the Telegraph reports. Wow 2p? But what use it that as Sunak either it would be reversed by Labour and/or wiped out by inflation anyway. The effect of which is to cut all the personal allowances dragging ever more into 40% taxes + NI.

    For thirteen years the Tories we have deliverd vast tax increases, huge currency debasement, gross incompetence, net zero lunacy, dangerous net harm vaccines, counterproductive lockdowns & all combined with vast waste and dire public service too.

    So who would trust tax to death Sunak’s and the Tory promises now?

    1. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      Well normal taxes are 32% for the employee, then 42% unless theyā€™re English students with an extra 9% graduate tax. Then 62% as the pa is clawed back from 100k, oh and the big loss of child benefit that something should be done about, it is very unfair as two earners can earn 100k before they lose it where one parent earning 60k loses it. If both parents are working they have to pay for extortionate childcare too.

      The people under Ā£35k are actually better off tax wise with this tory government you wouldnā€™t think so and its never defended.

    2. Original Richard
      June 4, 2023

      LL :

      I have voted Tory for 58 years but no longer.

      If anthropogenic emissions of CO2 were indeed a problem, which they are most definitely not, these parties would have started a new nuclear program as nuclear is the only low CO2 emission energy source which is affordable, abundant and reliable.

      I think the biggest lie ever told to the British public is on P19 of the Net Zero Strategy where it is claimed that by the decarbonisation date of 2035 :

      ā€œOur power system will consist of abundant, cheap British renewables, cutting edge new nuclear power stations, and be underpinned by flexibility including storage, gas with CCS, hydrogen and ensure reliable power is always there at the flick of a switch.ā€

      Renewables are definitely not ā€œabundant and cheapā€. Nor are they secure because they are all made in coal fired China. Nor are they reliable. And they are extremely profligate in the use of materials needing 1000 times more steel and concrete per unit of power compared to nuclear.

      There is no ā€œcutting edge new nuclearā€. All our nuclear power plants will be closed by 2035 and we will be left with just one ā€“ the EDF/Chinese Hinkley Point C ā€“ if they can get it working by then. This will provide less than 5% of our electricity by 2035.

      There is no ā€œstorageā€ because it is economically impossible, either using hydrogen or batteries. CC(U)S is not working and hydrogen is expensive to produce, store and transport.

      Our current course to reply on renewables will certainly not provide us with ā€œreliable power always there at the flick of a switchā€. And to make matters as bad as possible they intend to halt North Sea fossil fuel production and never start fracking.

      They will have known all of this when this paragraph was written and I am absolutely convinced that like the Labour/Lb Dem/Green Parties the Tory Party is determined to destroy the country with their Net Zero lunacy.

    3. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      What has Sunak achieved since being crowned PM

  24. Ralph Corderoy
    June 4, 2023

    The Telegraph, 20th May ā€™23:

    ā€˜Loudā€™ heat pumps could spark noise nuisance complaint
    The Government has launched a review of heat pumps over fears they might be too noisy…
    Heat pumps, which are positioned outside a home, tend to emit a constant hum of between 40 and 60 decibels, about the same as a fridge or dishwasher.
    Even though individually that is below the level usually considered annoying, there are fears that the cumulative impact of many heat pumps in a residential area could tip over into disturbance.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/20/head-pump-noise-disturbance-complaints/

  25. Keith from Leeds
    June 4, 2023

    How right you are, Sir John. Let those who believe we need to get to Net zero lead by example with Heat Pumps & BEVs.
    What staggers me is the total ignorance of our MPs on all sides of the house. Do none of them read & study before voting for hugely expensive changes which are totally un-necessary?

  26. Roy Grainger
    June 4, 2023

    Experience of friends in USA is you have to install heat pumps with backup electrical heating coils to use in winter to get enough heating. Electrical heating is of course very inefficient overall (including the power station) and (in UK) expensive.

    1. David in Kent5
      June 5, 2023

      While it is true that the older heat pumps especially do need a back-up heat source on cold winter days that would not be true for the sort of -5C temperatures we usually experience in UK.

    2. David in Kent
      June 5, 2023

      While it is true that the older heat pumps especially do need a back-up heat source on cold winter days that would not be true for the sort of -5C temperatures we usually experience in UK.

  27. Winston Smith
    June 4, 2023

    The calorific value of gas and diesel is going to be hard to beat. The provision of these fuels is already in place and the ditching of the old to replace with a new is, for the vast majority, simply not an option. Heat pumps to heat water are too expensive, poor performers, noisy and ugly.
    Heat pumps are a development of Hot and Cold aircon and as a heater and cooler of air, not water, work well but converting a house away from radiators to aircon is not a simple matter given every room would need aircon and the external condenser units are ugly and noisy to neighbours.
    Do you remember there were electric trams that were replaced with trolley buses that were replaced with diesel now being replaced by electric only to find it should have been hydrogen in the first place?
    Sounds a lot like Boris “following the science” and we know where that got us!

  28. turboterrier
    June 4, 2023

    At the end of our small estate a farmer/ builder constructed three pairs of semi detached properties and due to the low standard of construction only one of the units were sold privately. The other two were purchased by the council and now managed by a Housing Association.
    One of the properties has just undergone major renovation works including the installation of a ASHP and solar panels.
    The tenants who are supposed to be buying the property have had a constant stream of engineers calling back to get the installation running properly.
    The first big (massive) complaint is the size of the contract panel radiators taking up valuable wall space because of their low temperatures. No consideration that areas over 41 cu metres should have two emitters. All the pipework is facework drops as they wouldn’t go underneath the suspended pot and beam floor. Add the loss of the airing cupboard to massive hot water cylinder and buffer tanks all the first floor bedroom sheet flooring lifted with the associated refixing of floor coverings the lady of the house is not very happy. Then there is the noise when operating. What seemed like a good idea has been somewhat deflated. She wanted column radiators that take up far less wall space and by design circulate the air more quickly.
    As many here today have stated the whole thing has not been properly thought out. Fine in new build maybe but retro fitting in existing housing is a problem. Every dissatisfied customer tell 11- 15 people of their dissatisfaction. Only 4% tell the supplier. Because of the low operating temperatures it would be more effective to move the warm air around as used in Canada and Scandinavia.

  29. Ian B
    June 4, 2023

    Sir John

    ā€œMy electricity supplier tells me about heat pumpsā€ simple, they(heat pumps) bump up your electricity consumption exponentially, Your electricity suppler I would guess is foreign taxpayer owned(most are) gets paid more by you..

    That’s the next problem this Conservative Government is refusing to acknowledge or address, the UK needs of tons & tons of cheap self-reliant and resilient electricity.

    Then If your home is pre 1980ā€™s ish it will also need something in the region of additional Ā£20-30K spent on it, to tune the fabric of the property to work.

    Heat pumps & EVā€™s are dead in the water, with this Conservative Government having known that situation and having been in power for some 13 years and with the ability to address the situation, have refused, just refused. You have to ask why? It would appear if the solution to the UKā€™s existence isnā€™t in the hands of foreign powers and is not an import this Conservative Government will turn a ā€˜blind-eyeā€™ to it. This Conservative Government can not continue the destruction of the UK economy and the UK itself.

  30. Ian B
    June 4, 2023

    ā€œThey say the hot water would be 50-55 degreesā€œ hot water has to be boosted occasionally to th 60-65 degree mark to ward off samenilas which thrive in water at the lower temperature.

    1. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      Every household and business in the land is going to need a backup diesel generator

  31. Bryan Harris
    June 4, 2023

    Heat pumps are another white elephant from HMG – they couldn’t think of any other solution to us using gas, so they propose to make us pay and pay for a solution that doesn’t deliver – Isn’t it all our fault anyway?

    On a different topic, though related to bad government actions:

    CHILLING
    A Freedom of Information request reveals:

    Ministers had secret unit to curb lockdown dissent – Critics of Covid restrictions targeted by counter-disinformation team at the heart of the Government.

    The Counter-Disinformation Unit (CDU) was set up by ministers to tackle supposed domestic ā€œthreatsā€ and was used to target those critical of lockdown and questioning the mass vaccination of children.

    If that isn’t abuse of powers then what is?

    1. R.Grange
      June 4, 2023

      You are possibly not too far ‘off-topic’, Bryan. If a government digital spying unit can be used to suppress dissent about a lethal virus that was supposedly a threat to one and all of us, perhaps it can be used to suppress dissent about alleged man-made climate change threatening all on the planet. I’m sure Sir Nick Clegg for one wouldn’t need too much persuading.

    2. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      Rather than the DCMS committee enquiring into private matters at ITV, maybe they could utilise their time better by scrutinise this Counter-Disinformation Unit (CDU)

  32. oldwulf
    June 4, 2023

    ” ….. yet the uptake by Ministers and senior officials is still low.”

    Luckily, the Ministers will soon be ex-ministers.

    1. Donna
      June 5, 2023

      If CON Home ran a poll on “which Minister do you most want to see kicked out of Parliament at the next General Election” my vote would go to Grant Schapps.

      What has he ever done that has benefited ordinary British people? I can’t think of a single thing.

      1. Diane
        June 5, 2023

        Mr Schapps: I recall a brief interview on GBN with him a little while back where he was in the process of having / considering a heat pump in his home, air or ground source I don’t know & not at completion stage at time of interview. The Ā£ figures he was mentioning at the time sounded rather low to me. Haven’t seen or heard any update. Would be useful to know what type of home & how things turned out and at what cost ?

  33. Bert+Young
    June 4, 2023

    I wouldn’t have a heat pump due to the noise they make quite apart from the level of its inefficiency . I want my house to be warm and comfortable when it is chilly and cold ; regrettably I have stopped using my fireplace because nearby there are thatched houses and I would not want a spark from my chimney to cause a fire .

    1. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      You should be allowed in to free democratic country to buy whatever you want, the conservatives use to call this competition, market forces and the free will of consumers ā€¦.not seen in any communist state or the in UK for decades

  34. RichardP
    June 4, 2023

    Out of consideration for your neighbours you should also take into account that heat pumps can be noisy. We are told they only emit a low level hum but that ā€˜humā€™ is 24/7 and will undoubtedly get louder with age. We have an ā€˜ecoā€™ office building 120 metres away from our house and we can hear their heat pumps through closed windows. Imagine what level the ā€˜humā€™ will be when every house in the neighbourhood has one of these ridiculous heating systems.
    It is reported that DEFRA has been given Ā£6 million of our money for a noise mapping project to investigate this nuisance.

  35. Ian B
    June 4, 2023

    Air source heat pumps can work (define work) down to about -15C, that doesnā€™t mean it will heat the home at that temperature. At low temperatures you need an alternative heat source. At 00 outside you wont be comfortable inside but you might not freeze.

    Air source heat pumps also need regular(yearly) costly maintenance

    Ground source Heat Pumps are a slightly different proposition, ground below 1 meter is generally between 10-16 degrees(in the UK it doesnā€™t ever freeze) and will heat the water to the 60-65 range more readily. So standard pipes and radiators are OK. It is also in relation to its ā€˜airā€™ relation cheap to run. The installation of course is more problematic and costly, its not for the ā€˜crash-bangā€™ and we have gone gangs. But it is not as costly as bring someone’s pre 1980ā€™s home up to the standard needed to run the ā€˜airā€™ source versions.

  36. Peter Gardner
    June 4, 2023

    I designed and installed my gas fored central heating system in a Victorian three-storey house many years ago. One thing I remember is the necessity of having the highest possible temperatures of the radiators – 95 deg C. I have recently read an account of Sweden’s transition to heat pumps. In combination with district heating systems their schemes manage temperatures of only 75-82 degrees. That is why conversion to heat pumps requires new larger radtiators and therefore a complete rebuild of the installation, not just exchanging the boiler for a heat pump. if you don’t do the full whack the result is a cold house – as many accounts of practical experience relate. The system cannot equal the demand for heat to achieve a comfortable temperature. That is just basic thermodynamics, laws that have been established for centruries and which are immune to political argument.
    Just as Green Energy fanatics ignore the reality of the need to re-engineer the entire system of energy productiun and distributiuon so too on heat pumps. The immutable laws of thermodynaimcs have been known for centuries but very few people, particularly politicians, have studied thermodynamics so they haven’t a clue. Politicians may defer to scientists but they rarely ask engineers because they know engineers know about the application of science and thewrefore are rarely as optimistic as politicians would like.

    1. Berkshire Alan
      June 5, 2023

      Peter agree

      Scientists love theory and lab experiments, engineers like practicality in real life use.

  37. forthurst
    June 4, 2023

    By the way, do any of the Houses of Parliament restaurants have bugs on the menu yet? I understand they are delicious and packed with protein. Perhaps they could be trialled in the Department of Environment restaurants? The consequences of governmental banning should be trialled on the perpetrators first.

    1. a-tracy
      June 4, 2023

      Theyā€™d rather give them to unsuspecting children.

  38. ChrisS
    June 4, 2023

    Our neighbour, now retired, was the MD and then Chairman of a major German supplier and manufacturer of heat pumps of both types.

    I previously asked him if he could put me in touch with his best techincal expert on the subject. I had a phone call from the chap, who was English, and he was entirely open about the problems. His recommendation was that while we can still get gas and gas boilers, to stick with them at all costs. He said that even with more insulation, we would certainly need bigger bore pipes and larger radiators and our hot water for showers would never be of the temperatures we were used to.

    I calculated the cost and disruption and, even with a pump at trade cost price, the amount of money would have been staggering. We would also have had to move out in order that all the floors could be taken up to install the larger pipes. Completely impractical and most certainly unaffordable for almost everyone.
    The government’s problem is that heat pumps are a non-starter for at least 80% of the existing housing stock and that there are nowhere near enough rich people to tax sufficiently to pay for new heating systems for everyone. .

    1. Original Richard
      June 4, 2023

      ChrisS :

      Do you know please, perhaps via your neighbour, where I can find the CoP data for working/production ASHPs which includes outdoor temperatures down to -5 degrees C ?

      I am finding it difficult to find this data.
      Thank you.

      1. Mark
        June 5, 2023

        Manufacturers are reluctant to release performance curves for their equipment, probably partly because it is affected by installation parameters. Heat pumps can be made apparently more efficient if you reduce the output temperature you are trying to achieve, which rather defeats the object. Models for the Canadian market claim to produce some useful heat at -20C. Reports from users suggest that it needs substantial topping up even in a well insulated home. Icing of the exterior unit can result in the need to defrost it consuming energy since the ice acts as an insulator.

  39. John de los Angeles
    June 4, 2023

    Dear Sir John,

    Another article that you might find useful.

    I have a hugely insulated “Passivhaus” with a 14 Kw Misubishi Ecodan state of the art heat pump designed and installed by Misubishi certified engineers, together with 22 PV solar panels on the roof, underfloor heating on the ground floor and oversized radiators on the first floor.

    It was very expensive to install, even as an element of a new construction. During this last winter it was so expensive to run that we stopped using it and relied on electric convection heaters moved from room to room!

    The high installation and running costs come nowhere near to the much lower cost of an A+ rated gas combi boiler and smaller radiators.

    The Government most stop this nonsense and do what British Gas are still doing in advertising every day and that is promoting the change to efficient gas combi boilers.

    Kindest regards,

    John.

    The inconvenient truth about heat pumps
    May 23

    By Paul Homewood

    I have been highlighting these problems for years, so itā€™s nice that Ruth Bloomfield, who is I believe a property journalist, sums it all up better than I ever could:

    In Britainā€™s battle to cut carbon emissions, the government mistakenly sees heat pumps as a key weapon. Unveiling the latest energy efficiency plan in March, energy secretary Grant Shapps doubled down on Boris Johnsonā€™s offer of a Ā£5,000 grant for anyone willing to install one. These smart bits of home technology work by transferring thermal energy from the air, ground or water. They are powered by electricity, which can be generated from solar or wind power, providing cheap and fossil fuel-free heating and hot water. So whatā€™s not to like?

    The concept is nothing new. In 1856 the Austrian scientist Peter von Rittinger worked out a technique for drying out salt in salt marshes using an early iteration of the heat pump, and in 1951 the Royal Festival Hall in London opened with a water source heat pump fed by the Thames.

    Yet despite their obvious attractions, domestic heat pumps remain outliers. According to the European Heat Pump Association there are now around 20 million air and water source heat pumps in operation in Europe, providing heating to about 16 per cent of residential buildings. The other 84 per cent of buildings are heated the old-fashioned way. In the UK, 55,000 heat pumps were fitted in 2021. During the same period, 1.5 million people installed new gas boilers.

    Heat pumps became a political hot topic that same year when Johnson, then prime minister, announced he wanted to phase out gas boilers and offered substantial grants to anyone who would replace one with a heat pump. This, he hoped, would result in 600,000 heat pumps being installed every year by 2028. Offers of free money tend to go down well with the public ā€“ consider how insane the housing market went during the pandemic stamp duty amnesty. But the silence in response to this Ā£450 million offer has been deafening.

    The latest figures from Ofgem show that fewer than 10,000 installations were completed under the scheme between May 2022 and March this year. The reason for this lack of uptake is simple. If you drill down into the reality of heat pumps, the idea of a Ā£5,000 cheque from Downing Street starts to lose its appeal. For a start, a heat pump costs, on average, about Ā£10,000. For an air source model that rises to around Ā£20,000. You can buy a decent, energy efficient combi boiler for about Ā£2,500.

    And what ministers seem unable ā€“ or unwilling ā€“ to grasp is that heat pumps are not simple, plug-and-play options. To start with, you need space. An air source heat pump requires around 10 square feet of outside space ā€“ bad luck, flat-owners ā€“ plus new pipework to deliver the heat it produces. Homeowners also need space indoors for a heat exchange unit (of about the same size as a normal gas boiler) plus a hot water cylinder (which those with combi boilers can often do without).

    Ground source heat pumps are even greedier, space-wise. The most cost-effective system involves digging shallow trenches in the garden. These need to be around 100 metres long and up to two metres deep, meaning that anyone with a less-than-sprawling garden can forget it. And even those with plenty of space can come up against obstacles ā€“ Blur singer Damon Albarn has reportedly received complaints from Parish Councillors that the sight and sound of the two ā€˜intrusiveā€™ heat pumps outside his Devon farmhouse could disturb walkers on the nearby footpath in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.

    If space is not an issue, your existing radiators could be. Heat pumps have far lower flow temperatures than boilers, which means they require a much larger radiator surface area than a normal boiler does. This means either supersizing your radiators (impractical, ugly) or installing underfloor heating (expensive, disruptive). And of course there is no point producing lots of lovely, clean heat if your house isnā€™t well insulated. Think not just loft insulation but also wall and floor insulation, and double, ideally triple, glazing.

    Collectively these practicalities mean that the only time installing a heat pump is going to be feasible is during a major renovation of a substantial house or a self-build ā€“ which means the only real beneficiaries of this flagship policy are well-off home improvers, grand designers and property developers. Ordinary, regular people living in ordinary, regular homes donā€™t have a hope.

    What ministers seem unable to grasp is that heat pumps are not simple, plug-and-play options. To start with, you need space

    The problems donā€™t even end with cost and space. Buying a heat pump isnā€™t like choosing a new phone. Professional advice on the type of system you should have, its size, how it should be installed, where, how to set it up and work it and how to maintain it is alarmingly patchy. If you want a heat pump youā€™re going to have to be prepared to brush up your GCSE physics and get your head around the technology because you are going to need to ask the right questions and work a lot of this out for yourself. Any errors will be expensive; while some homeowners are happy with their heat pumps there have certainly been cases of amateurs lumbered with bulky, expensive and inefficient heat pumps for want of good advice.

    So why is the government still so sure that heat pumps are the great white hope in our battle against carbon emissions? Perhaps the answer can be found at the school gates, where many affluent mums ditched their previous status symbol of choice ā€“ a four-wheel drive ā€“ in favour of earning brownie points on the middle-class dinner party circuit with tales of how much they love their Kia e-Niros.

    Politicians also love to burnish their green credentials, and the governmentā€™s constant pressure to ditch gas boilers and embrace heat pumps feels like it stems largely from a desire to prove themselves to be at the cutting edge when it comes to green technology. Promoting loft insulation ā€“ which is lacking in almost a third of Britainā€™s 25 million homes with lofts, according to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, and is cheap and easy to install ā€“ is a far less sexy rallying cry.

    But beware of ministers bearing gifts. A chronic lack of policy thinking-through puts anybody idealistic enough to attempt to harness heat pump technology at risk of being left ā€“ literally ā€“ out in the cold.

    Ruth Bloomfield

  40. Heather Parker
    June 4, 2023

    We lived in British Columbia, Canada until 6 years ago. Temperatures there can be quite similar to the UK. Almost all new build houses had heat pumps. I found that ours was extremely efficient providing air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter even during damp or snowy conditions. The running costs were much less than conventional heating systems. It wouldn’t be a good idea to encourage people with older properties in the UK to install heat pumps but new builds should definitely have them included in the build. I do think heat pumps are getting a bad press in the UK because the public is not being informed properly about the difficulty of installation in older properties.

    1. Derek
      June 5, 2023

      Which type of Heat Pump was prominent in Canada? Geo -Thermal or Air? I doubt any Heat Pump is cheaper to run than electricity from a clean coal-fired power station. Too much emphasis is being piled upon the ‘dangerous’ gas, CO2 and equally ‘dangerous’ element, Carbon. LOL, as if we can survive without any of them.

  41. glen cullen
    June 4, 2023

    ”Heat Pumps are not popular”
    The understatement of the year

  42. Derek
    June 4, 2023

    Heat pumps have become a Government mandate. Whatever happened to freedom of choice in this country? Why does this pseudo-Tory Government believe that they know what is best for the electorate? Worse still, they actually force us to follow their orders regardless of any opposition to them. That is more the MO of the CPP rather than Conservative principles. And they expect to be re-elected next year?
    As each year turns and whichever mainstream Government is in power, we, the people, are losing chunks of our democracy. That is scary.
    Now is the time for the country to seek out and switch to a new political Party who will represent the expectations and aspirations of the people who put them there. The Sunak government is no Conservative government neither will be Labour nor Libdem and Green, et al. They all have the same objectives, bigger Government to control the people and their daily lives.
    Is that what we want here? If yes, we should have stayed on under the control of the unelected and unaccountable Brussels EU Commission and become their “slaves”.

  43. ChrisS
    June 4, 2023

    Some often missed facts.
    We are constatly being told that much more insulation would be required to bring down the cost of heating from the current levels and for heat pumps to be effective.
    BUT it is almost impossible to cost effectively improve the insulation level in the high proportion of UK houses and flats that have no loft.
    More than 30 years ago, planners started to insist on chalet-style houses where there is no loft which can be insulated. Roof timbers were often no more than 4″ tall timbers, unlike today’s requirements, so little room to fit effective insulation bet6ween the timbers, even if you took down all the ceilings. Reducing the ceiling heights in every upstairs room to fit extra timber and insulation, or replacing the entire roof is clearly impractical.

    UK homes generally have small rooms so insulating every outside wall internally would reduce space, be both extremely disruptive, and expensive. External insulation is impractical and also expensive.

    Triple glazing in the UK’s mild climate is not cost effective.

  44. Hat man
    June 4, 2023

    Still on your government’s green agenda, SJR, I see from the DT that in an election year they are coming up with a scheme to charge retailers and manufacturers for the cost of councils recycling their packaging. This will increase the cost of household goods when it is rolled out from next April. So the government says it wants inflation to come down, but is introducing a scheme that will put prices up.

    Apparently we are indebted to former Environment Secretary Michael Gove for this brilliant wheeze to finally kill off voter support for the Tories.

    Those whom the gods wish to destroy….?

    1. glen cullen
      June 4, 2023

      +1

  45. PAR
    June 4, 2023

    Well said. All so true. Government and ministerial hypocrisy on this policy is blatant.

  46. iain gill
    June 4, 2023

    John,

    Don’t see why you remain in the supposed “Conservative” party, other than the brand and marketing budget it has, since all its policies in practise are so far away from your own views, the views of the majority of the British people, there has got to be a change.

    Cheers

  47. James+Morley
    June 5, 2023

    Your experience of Heat Pumps aligns with my own. I have however been able to ā€œprivatiseā€ my electricity supply by buying a share in a Scottish wind turbine, no home modifications needed. Commencing early next year I will be supplied with electricity priced at the cost of production, not the market price. For details see Kirkhill Wind Farm at Rippleenergy.com.

  48. Charles Davies
    June 6, 2023

    I had an air heat pump installed and had it de-installed 4 months later for safety reasons, due to incompetent installation. The net result was that I was out of pocket to the tune of Ā£22,000.00p. With a gas boiler, my annual costs were about Ā£1,250.00p. With a heat pump, my annual costs were estimated to about Ā£2,650.00p. This is because although the energy consumed with a heat pump is roughly half that of a gas boiler. The cost of electricity is 22.59p/kWh, and the cost of gas is 5.39p/kWh. From a maintenance perspective, the costs for a gas boiler are about Ā£100.00p/annum and the costs for a heat pump are about Ā£400.00p/annum. My gas boiler is installed inside my home, whereas the heat pump was mounted externally and in the 4 months it was installed, it broke down on three separate occasions, the final time was due to adverse weather conditions and necessitated the replacement of a number of electronic circuit boards.

    Where the relevant thermal efficiencies are concerned, a modern gas fired boiler is in excess of 90%. If you’re operating a heat pump and the wind doesn’t blow, you have to rely on gas fired fossil fuelled generation and the current gas turbine operated power stations have a thermal efficiency of about 66% (a lot less than a domestic gas boiler).

    For the record, I am a degree qualified professional engineer with a track record of 30 years in the energy sector including power generation (both fossil fuelled and nuclear power), offshore oil & gas and nuclear fuel reprocessing. Although I am now retired.

    As far as I’m concerned, hell will freeze over (no pun intended) before I allow any air heat pump on my property ever again.

    Kind Regards,

    Charles Davies BEng(Hons), MIET, MIMarEST.

  49. Mark
    June 6, 2023

    I see the issue of fining manufacturers Ā£5,000 for each heat pump they fail to sell is cropping up again. What this really is is a tax on the purchase of gas and oil fired boilers. It should be dropped. Pushing up the cost of boiler replacement discourages replacement of older less efficient boilers and is simply another heating bill for those whose boiler has broken down, as the more complex modern boilers are wont to do after a relatively short life.

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