Last night I put the case for Brexit to a meeting attended by 200 people in the Willink School in Burghfield.
When the Remain side put some of their more absurd fears to the audience, many just laughed.
Project Fear seems to be backfiring.
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June 3, 2016
Standing with you legs unusually and uncomfortably wide apart Cameron-style last night was the stance of an Afrikaaner policeman in the Apartheid era. I guess it is to project Authority and MANhood etc ed.
Mr Cameron’s pose is just a physical gross exaggeration to marry up with his outrageous verbal nonsense and fear-mongering. OK, he poses like a posing man. No reason to remain in the EU.
June 3, 2016
I remember those policemen…
June 3, 2016
Indeed they either have project pestilence & fear, project lies (about all existing people here leaving and all those Brits in the EU returning, the economy …..), or project they will beat us up if we leave or we need to stay to keep the EU disaster from exploding.
Worst of all is the we need the EU to boss us around on workers rights, protecting the environment, landfill, human rights, carbon emissions, phone charges, airline compensation and the rest. We can do this far more efficiently ourselves.
June 3, 2016
Owen Jones (on Question Time) even says the EU workers rights is his bottom line. He seems to think these need to be enforced by the antidemocratic EU with the dire results on employment we see in most of the EU.
The British can apparently cannot do this democratically.
June 3, 2016
None of them are interested in those who want work but have none.
June 3, 2016
Nor is Osborne. Who, with is national minimum wage has now made it illegal for many low paid to work at all. How does he think that this helps the economy or these ex workers?
June 3, 2016
Brexit odds have fallen from 9:2 to 11:4 but still some way to go.
Surely the people will not fall for these absurd remain arguments and EU serfdom.
June 3, 2016
Project Fear should be renamed Project absurd. I’m just waiting for Keanu Reeves and a massive robot to come hurtling through space.
On a serious side, the bottom of the pile working class ( i.e. like me) has always known the elite treat them with contempt, but also know the elite need them to do all the menial, manual jobs. The working class, in the main, put up with this but the changes being done to this country by the traitor and his beloved EU is too far. Not only are we seeing an invasion from abroad, we are being taxed to pay for the inevitable outcome of that invasion.
Whatever Cameron has been promised by the EU for the removal of this country’s name off world maps must be worth it in his eyes. May he get what he wishes for us.
June 3, 2016
Yet again a Remainer insinuated that to complain about population levels was to ‘blame immigrants’. (Owen Jones Vs Neil Hamilton – last night’s QT) It is a sly and corrosive comment.
It needs to be rebutted every time in order to keep the trump card for Leave in play:
“We are not blaming immigrants, we are blaming policymakers.”
Leave may not stop mass immigration (a problem caused mainly by the UK elite) but it is a good start.
June 3, 2016
High house prices are because of supply and demand – i.e. too much demand (to a certain extend fuelled by net inward migration of 330,000 plus) and not enough houses.
Corbyn says this is because of “Government policies” [lack of] – Hmm.. how does any Government make future plans when you can’t predict or control the demand?
June 3, 2016
This question seems beyond Owen Jones. He sees no link between migration and demand.
June 3, 2016
Anonymous
“The Question seems beyond Owen Jones”
Forgive him he is quite young, but I am sure will learn in due course.
Makes you laugh when 16 year olds want the vote, for most of them 21 is still too young.
June 4, 2016
Perhaps people should not vote until they have worked for five years.
June 3, 2016
The questions to be put to Mr Gove tonight will in part be prefaced by quotes or reminders that “important” people think and say this that and the other and how can he, and by implication all of us, know better.
Not cricket to personally discredit them by digging up readily available stuff on the internet where they expressed the exact opposite position. Too long and complicated in an adversarial split-sentence interview to explain the truth.
So, Mr Gove will have a tough time. The sky will become dark with the volley of arrows. But their exaggerated volume will break and blunt their points, perhaps not for a quick-fire journalist and a discerning Mr Gove but Yes for the majority of the audience. Of course he will know this. The journalist will need to prove ONE “important” person is much more important than Mr Gove. And trust the audience will have seen or know or like the person. So it can’t be a Brussels bureaucrat. Nor Mrs Merkel. In fact, the Remain Camp doesn’t have anyone you know and trust or like in the least degree. He should do well.
June 3, 2016
You missed Mr Cameron’s performance, then? It is really not a good state of affairs when the Prime Minister is laughed at. There was more than one person in the audience who knew waffle when they heard it.
June 3, 2016
Perhaps more people are beginning to feel that the government’s arguments just don’t make sense, which of course they don’t.
June 3, 2016
We live in hope Denis. And I hope you’re right. The government keep trying to fool all of the people all of the time, and it’s wearing pretty thin. There’s a big credibility gap opening up.
Tad
June 3, 2016
It was the same at the Sky News debate – the whole audience erupted when Faizal Islam asked Cameron which disaster would come first when we leave.
It’s possible this was first time he been faced with real people. He was humiliated and thus the remain case.
June 3, 2016
Hopefully the burghers of Burghfield are treating the referendum as a vote of confidence in the establishment. If they are finding that they are have to run faster just to keep up they should vote out. Labour voters also seem to be making their minds up independently despite what Comrade Corbyn thinks is good for them. I had a conversation with a carpenter yesterday about the referendum. I asked him what he was voting, “out” was the reply. The reason why had nothing to do with the EU, he simply said “We have to get the Tories out”.
June 3, 2016
Anybody who thinks Commonwealth citizens should not get a vote should think again. My immigrant spouse will be voting out simply to give Hunt and Cameron a bit of job insecurity. The trade and sovereignty issues are irrelevant to him.
June 3, 2016
I think that as a matter of principle only UK citizens should be allowed to vote in any UK public elections or referendums. I don’t assume that all of the Irish or Commonwealth citizens will vote to keep us in the EU but I don’t think they should be asked for their opinion either way.
June 3, 2016
DRW,
This is where Corbyn’s own credibility is looking pretty tainted.
Some of us stick to our principles and would never contemplate taking thirty pieces of silver, or changing our minds just to placate people who are on the wrong side of the argument. Corbyn was against the EU because of all the damage it has done to the lives of ordinary people, yet now he supports it. He says he wants to reform the EU, but doesn’t tell us how he aims to do that, or to what extent. He also seems not to trust our own electorate to support worker’s rights.
Interesting that so many grassroots members and affiliates to the Labour party voted for Corbyn whilst he was still an avowed Eurosceptic who wants out. I guess he’s ratted on them too.
I think we can safely say we have seen through Mr Corbyn, and he’s no messiah.
Tad
June 3, 2016
@Tad Davison; By all accounts, as reported (even by their own), Mr Corybn made a very good speech yesterday for Brexit -once the speech had been analysed- this at a Remain function!
June 3, 2016
Tad
Agree absolutely.
I do wonder what some of these “So Called” original Eurosceptic turncoats are hoping to get out of all of this.
Have they not thought through their long term position.
They have proved already that anything they say in the future cannot be believed.
When we vote out they will then be on the wrong side of the electorate and may be out of a job.
If Remain win and the EU turns into a disaster (as it eventually will) they will be proven wrong and then turfed out.
Being an EU supporter is a disaster for your future career in politics, because you have put yourself before your Country.
June 3, 2016
@alan jutson; “If [Labour for] Remain win and the EU turns into a disaster (as it eventually will) they will be proven wrong and then turfed out.”
Turfed out of were, our State Legislature perhaps (coequally still called Westminster), that would still leave the/our USoE Federal government in place, almost certainly of at least a centre-left (by UK standards) parliamentary disposition.
Oh and to answer you question as to why those you describe as “turncoats” act as they do, indeed the left might, in their view, be house-sharing with the devil -the corporate business world- but at least their basic principles are protected in the same way is they are in say Germany, workers, union & civil rights etc, unlike what they fear should the UK have its Brexit.
Once again Conservative government polices of the 1980s are returning to bit us, in this case the ‘war’ against the trade unions. Like or loath him, that was a political master stroke played by Jacques Delors in the late 1980s, getting the previously eurosceptic unions and Labour party on-side with one simple promise, this at a time when our government was becoming very cool towards the EC and the Delors Commission, what with the likes of Mrs Thatchers Bruges speech and her “No! No! No!” comments on the floor of the House…
June 3, 2016
The reason we’re rebelling is because it’s ‘racketeering’. No better than if we ran small shops and restaurants and the men with baseball bats came threatening us to pay up or we’ll get our faces smashed in. Well sometimes people find the strength to stand up for their freedom and when we stand together we can’t be bullied.
The remain side aren’t telling us what is going to get better for us, how we are going to get out of problems that cause us serious concern (such as offering our free health service to all incomers).
Channel 4 highlighted last night that the southern Irish who don’t even live in the UK have a vote in our referendum. WHAT! They are being told to vote to remain because it is in their benefit over ours.
Jeremy Corbyn made false claims yesterday about employment rights. A Labour politician virtually saying their party was irrelevant. How many of the other 28 Countries in the EU have 28 days paid holiday because they’re in the EU, how many match our maternity rights and pay, how many match our social security payments, housing lists system, tax credits? It’s no wonder why we’re not competitive within Europe for exports.
Every night we’re hearing how weak we are as a Country since we’ve joined the EU and how slowly but surely we’ve handed all our self-determination to them.
June 3, 2016
@a-tracy; “Channel 4 highlighted last night that the southern Irish who don’t even live in the UK have a vote in our referendum.”
Either Ch4 was mischief making or you miss-heard, I think you’ll find that the people you talk about need to satisfy two criteria to get a vote; 1/. have been born in Northern Ireland, 2/. have lived outside of GB&Ni for less than 15 years – the same criteria as any UK expat.
June 3, 2016
I’ll have to have another look on catch up. It seemed to me like Irish visitors to a games (can’t remember what festival), normally resident in Southern Ireland were being told they could register to vote and were being encouraged by the Irish Prime minister during his campaign visit to England to vote Remain in their Countries interest.
June 3, 2016
I’ll have to have another look on catch up. It seemed to me watching that Irish visitors to a games (can’t remember what festival), normally resident in Southern Ireland were being told they could register to vote and were being encouraged by the Irish Prime minister during his campaign visit to England to register and vote Remain in their Countries interest.
June 3, 2016
Rubbish as usual Jerry, Southern Irish are allowed to participate in all UK elections as are some Commonwealth citizens.
There are enough to maker a significant difference and no one seems to know why this is allowed to continue.
June 3, 2016
@ian wragg; No Mr Wragg, as usual it is YOU who needs to check YOUR facts.
Here, from the horses mouth (the Electoral Commissions website). Read the second FAQ question down, “Who can vote in the EU Referendum?”, at the following URL;
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions/eu-referendum
Your apologies will be accepted, when given,, you really shouldn’t believe all those UKIP activists tell you…
June 4, 2016
Top of your list. Irish citizens living in th UK can vote. This large number are being advised by their interfering PM to vote for us to Stay. If remain wins by a small margin caused by Irish and wrongly included EU voters, there will be big trouble. The knights of the civil service will have to be deknighted and another referendum run fairly. A new Conservative leadership will have to take over to quell the storm.
June 4, 2016
@stred; Indeed, thus you seem to be arguing then that no one who wasn’t born in the UK should be allowed to vote, how ever long they have lived here in the UK. Do you also object to Commonwealth citizens being allowed to vote if they have “leave (permission) to remain in the UK or who does not require leave to remain in the UK” ? Why are some trying to single out the Irish…
Besides, @a-tracy specifically said “southern Irish who don’t even live in the UK”, which is not the same as the point you have jumped in with!
June 4, 2016
http://www.channel4.com/news/eu-referendum-all-our-coverage-in-one-place
Jerry, watch the link above it said Irish citizens can vote even if they’ve just arrived if they registered now.
June 4, 2016
Nope. If you are an Irish person with British citizenship then you should be able to vote. If you are Irish but have a British address then no. Just the same as a British citizen living in Ireland, who cannot vote in Irish referenda.
The rules are a civil service fiddle as they know the vote will be close. It willnot be accepted.
June 5, 2016
@a-tracy; They need to be/have been living in the UK, as a resident in the UK, the reference to “even if they have just arrived” sounds to me more like a reminder that it is still not to late to registrar ones eligibility and thus receive a polling card, not how to cast an illegal vote! In the same way as UK born people who have arrived back after working abroad (within the 15 year time limit) are also being reminded that it is not to late to registrar.
@stred; So in other words you do think Commonwealth citizens should not be allowed to vote in UK elections/referenda, even though resident in the UK, what about UK citizens who live outside of the UK but in qualifying countries (within the 15 year cut off), should they also loose their vote, after all many UK expats living in the EU could also help swing this referendum should the vote be very close. Sounds to me that the only people trying to ‘nobble’ the result are people like you @stred.
June 3, 2016
Shows why a positive message usually pays dividends in the end, if it can be backed up with reasonable argument and some actual facts to support its cause.
Showing concern can help an argument, but outright fear tactics for too long without giving anything positive is an absolute turn off.
The Remain side use fear because they really do not have much positive news or positive facts to give.
We have had 40 years to try and change the EU
The Conservatives have had 23 years, Labour 17 years.
Both sides need to face facts.
Changing the EU is simply not an option any more, as more Countries join our voting percentage gets less and less, and so we have less power of influence than in years past.
After 40 years in the EU room, its now time to move into the larger premises of the World.
June 3, 2016
The response from the Sky referendum in/out audience with David Cameron last night was the same.
The mendacity of the man was on full display. Amongst other subjects he once again came out with his ludicrous statement that given the current rate of progress it will be the year 3000 before Turkey joins the EU. Unfortunately there was no opportunity to remind him that he is on record as saying he would do all in his power to get Turkey in the EU and that £2bn is being spent to accelerate the progress of 5 accession countries including Turkey.
June 3, 2016
Brian
Cameron made a big speech in the Turkish Parliament openly supporting their joining the EU as soon as possible, available on Youtube I am informed.
Have seen it but cannot remember the link.
June 3, 2016
They’ve even wheeled out the German Chancellor now with some thinly veiled threats about what will happen to us if we don’t toe the line. Quite frankley, coming from the country that caused the conflagrations that are being held up as the raison d’être for the EU I find her remarks quite offensive, and I use the term advisedly.
June 3, 2016
Indeed hopefully counterproductive too. Rather like her encouragement to migrants to risk their lives.
June 3, 2016
I’ve found Merkel herself offensive more or less since she became Chancellor.
June 3, 2016
The laughter that John experienced last night at the Burghfield debate must have been very similar to the responses Cameron received at his Sky interview effort . He was ridiculed by young and old questioners and pushed to the extent of being made very foolish .
June 3, 2016
@Bert Young
No wonder he’s afraid to debate with Nigel Farage.
I guess he’ll restrict such apprearances to the BBC “safe zone” in future, so that the audience and questions can be carefully vetted beforehand.
June 3, 2016
I was sorry not to have had the opportunity to attend yesterday’s meeting at the Willink School as it would have been interesting to hear the OUT argument and John Redwood as a long standing opponent of the whole EU concept. There has been a lot of baloney talked from both sides which frankly is a turn off to most voters, and there is a real danger that this becomes a referendum on Cameron and the current government as opposed to whether or not we should remain in the EU. With both sides throwing up “Facts” that frankly contradict each other, and so are anything but facts, can we not have a debate about principles instead?
From the OUT campaign the one argument I have yet to hear a convincing argument to is how can we get a better deal from the largest trading bloc by being outside it rather than in it? The idea that the remaining EU members will reward Britain with a better deal if they left is clearly political nonsense as such a premise would mean the dissolution of the EU as an institution as everyone would then want to leave. We have to be realistic and if we left we would be penalised and economically would have to live with that.
It is not to say it cannot be done and we might still prosper but let’s have some realism to the debate.
Many comments here talk of the fear factor being used by IN campaigners but what of those that want to leave, and the arguments over immigration and the fact we will be flooded by Turks – is that not a fear argument that has no basis on fact?
The one good question that was posed on Question Time last night was that if we were not already in would we now vote to join? That is one that the IN campaigners need to have a think about and argue for if they are to convince the undecided voters.
It would be good to have some rational arguments on both sides so that voters can vote on facts and what they think is important as opposed to hyperbole.
June 3, 2016
@Peter Norman; Very well put comments, but as for the “Would we join now if we were not already a member of the EU” question, of course we wouldn’t, we would be stark raving bonkers to do so, and i suspect many a “Remain” voter would agree! Why, simply because we would not have our existing and various opt-outs and concessions etc, some dating back to 1973, thus that question is a bit of a “Have you stopped beating your wife yet” type of question as it is not asking a sensible question about the actual facts as they are.
June 4, 2016
Good morning, Peter
On the question of trade agreements, it would indeed be preferable to have one in place should we leave. But even if we do not, after two years we move into being an non-EU member country and just a member of the EEA / Singlemarket. The EEA allows us the four freedoms – Good, services, money and people. So we ca still continue whilst seeking a new trade deal.
It is also important to remember two things. 1) most of the trade that goes on in the UK is with itself. Currently, the EU is able to regulate this but, once outside the EU we can do it ourselves without their interference. 2) It is not just the EU we trade with. Increasingly, as the EU slips evermore into economic decline, the rest of the word is forging ahead. Outside the EU the UK can have trade deals with Canada, the USA, China and many others. Currently the EU has no such trade deal but, we can still buy their products plus a tariff.
I hope this helps with one of your questions.
OUT !!!!
June 4, 2016
@Mark B; But why, post Brexit, would we wish to sign up to the EEA when it would oblige us to partake in some of the same “freedoms” that we either have an opt-out currently on or wish to leave because we do not have an opt-out! Brexit should mean exit, not an about-turn within the same doorway…
June 3, 2016
Hello John. We live two minutes from the Willink School but did not know the talk was on. Some more local communication needed I think. Regards Colin Watson
Reply sorry you missed it. I did not organise or advertise the meeting. I can’t to everything.
June 3, 2016
@JR reply; Which seems to be a theme running through the entire Vote Leave campaign, people like you are working your socks off but those in high command and at local HQs (assuming there are any) simply are not providing people like you with the back-up you need.
I have no idea if there has been any Vote Leave events in my area as I have yet to have any leaflets etc. put through the door, unlike those from the Stronger In campaign (complete with their exaggerated claims), this includes the Vote Leave official postal Referendum Communication. This when postal voting forms are already being sent out, and no doubt filled in and returned…
June 3, 2016
The official (Remain ed) campaign are so desperate they are resorting to deliberate lies. Mr Redwood have you a view on this ?. Isn’t an official campaign supposed to follow basic rules of decency?. The latest stunt is to use a dodgy ‘survey’ to try to show that nearly ALL economists agree.
StrongerIn 3/6/16
‘How’s this for expert consensus? Nine out of ten economists say leaving the EU will hit our economy’.
Stronger In @StrongerIn 3/6/16
‘The economic argument is OVER: economists overwhelmingly say remaining is better for our economy & for jobs’.
A layperson would expect the ‘official’ campaign to act with a degree of integrity. But they are spreading lies and misinformation.
What Stronger in don’t say is that of the 3,818 invitations sent out to form the survey, only 17% of ‘economists’ replied . Yes 3/5 couldn’t be bothered to reply yet Stronger in are saying all economists agree and the case is settled. They even have the nerve to describe this as a ‘consensus’. Is there no matter too important that the British establishment isn’t prepared to lie about to get it’s way?.
This isn’t minor playing with facts..it is INDUSTRIAL SCALE DECEPTION!
The full details are here if anyone wants to check..
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3739/Economists-Views-on-Brexit.aspx
The rot started at the top with David Cameron and the Little Lord Fauntelroy Osborne..they have much to answer for!.
June 3, 2016
Well we are not even in the EU as the queen that signed the country in was disqualified at the time according to the Act of Settlement 1701 s 1 & 2. She as the head of the Protestant Church is not allowed to reconcile with the Church of Rome ( ie Catholic church) or anything papist. She met with Pope John in 1962 at the Vatican and with other popes. The Anglican church is only anglican in name but in worship has turned catholic. Anyway if the monarch does reconcile with rome then
they are deemed to not have any regal ( monarchy) powers, eg to pass laws , to collect taxes. Citizens are exempt from all allegiances to her . This applies to Britain and the commonwealth nations. So when the Law was passed to join the EU – common market it was an illegal act by a disqualifed monarch. Parliament also is considered as a rogue or illegal
one as it is needed to be opened and closed by a valid monarch even the electorial laws if it is one passed by the Queen is not valid.
Britain is still under that law and its one that CANNOT BE REPEALED ANNULLED etc
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Will3/12-13/2
And it was thereby further enacted That all and every Person and Persons that then were or afterwards should be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or should professe the Popish Religion F1… should be excluded and are by that Act made for ever [X1incapable] to inherit possess or enjoy the Crown and Government of this Realm and Ireland and the Dominions thereunto belonging or any part of the same or to have use or exercise any regall Power Authority or Jurisdiction within the same And in all and every such Case and Cases the People of these Realms shall be and are thereby absolved of their Allegiance
II The Persons inheritable by this Act, holding Communion with the Church of Rome, incapacitated as by the former Act; to take the Oath at their Coronation, according to Stat. 1 W. & M. c. 6.
Provided always and it is hereby enacted That all and every Person and Persons who shall or may take or inherit the said Crown by vertue of the Limitation of this present Act and is are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or shall profess the Popish Religion F2… shall be subject to such Incapacities as in such Case or Cases are by the said recited Act provided enacted and established And that every King and Queen of this Realm who shall come to and succeed in the Imperiall Crown of this Kingdom by vertue of this Act shall have the Coronation Oath administred to him her or them at their respective Coronations according to the Act of Parliament made in the First Year of the Reign of His Majesty and the said late Queen Mary intituled An Act for establishing the Coronation Oath and shall make subscribe and repeat the Declaration in the Act first above recited mentioned or referred to in the Manner and Form thereby prescribed
Cameron and the Department of Constitutional affairs have lied about this and covered it up , they stated in a letter they wrote to me in 2010 that its only if she has Holy communion at the Catholic church that its constituted as reconciliation
She did and it was put on the net in 2006? since then there has been a FOI restriction on asking those sorts of questions from the church or from the Royal Family institutions .
We see though in section 2 that reconciled is listed as separate from taking Holy communion.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Will3/12-13/2