Let me begin by stating clearly I am not advocating any new taxes and certainly not lobbying for any. There are, however, many worried that if electric cars take off and significant numbers of petrol and diesel cars are pensioned off there will be a collapse in fuel duty and Vehicle Excise Duty revenues that will need replacing. They think it is a good idea to ask how this hole in public revenues might be filled. Before buying an electric car some people want to know what the future tax regime might be for them.
Some think the electric car user should have to pay a tax just as the diesel and petrol car owners do today to keep the revenues up. Electricity for charging car batteries could be taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity, with the charger point incorporating suitable smart meter identification of use. After all electric cars use the roads as much as the ICE cars they replace, will add to the wear and tear and will need road maintenance and improvement programmes.
It is true that the tax raised on the motorist greatly exceeds the costs of providing and servicing the roads. There has been cross party agreement to a permanent transfer of income from car users to public services and benefit programmes. There is no reason some argue why this choice should change, or why electric vehicles should be exempt if that transfer remains multi party government policy.
Others think the advent of more electric vehicles should be used for a more comprehensive change in travel and vehicle taxation. Why not , they say, introduce road pricing? The state could sweep away fuel duty and VED and replace it by a comprehensive system of charging cars who use roads. Some would want to charge electric vehicles less per mile than petrol or diesel as a further incentive to adoption. Some want to just charge for congested roads, flexing the charge by time and traffic conditions. Some think just charge for the trunk roads and motorways which account for so much of the miles travelled and which tend to be more used by business and people on better incomes. That way people using cars to get children to school or themselves to nearby work would not be taxed.
Road pricing has been looked at before and so far always rejected. Many motorists/taxpayers fear it would become an extra tax. They fear the government would extort too much out of their monopoly control of the roads. Many MPs think of it as a poll tax on wheels and would not wish to support it. So I ask you all in a genuine spirit of enquiry how should the government handle revenue loss from electric cars? I do not have a good answer to offer as someone who has not been telling everyone to get an electric vehicle.
September 4, 2021
Good morning.
Is it me or does anyone else see the problem here ?
Here is an admission that the tax that is taken for a specific purpose is not (at least all of it) spent on the purpose for which it is taken and, that there is widespread agreement within the political class that it is therefore OK to keep maintaining said tax and use any surplus as they see fit. No hint of giving the money back etc.
Again I ask. Does anybody see the problem with this ?
How in one sentence can there be an admission that the government are taking too much tax, and then a question as to when such revenues fall (in this case due to the very changes government is making, but I leave the irony in that for another day) how they can make it back up !
The mind boggles !
We not so much have a government but a Mad Hatters Tea Party.
Reply All tax is paid into a general account to help meet any cost of government. If the government loses a lot of fossil fuel revenue it has to tax something else or cut spending. Governments never cut overall spending.
September 4, 2021
Addendum
And another thing. If the government were to expel all those illegal immigrants, we would not have to raise NIC* by ÂŁ1bn as the the saving on not providing them with FREE accomodation, food and healthcare would save us ÂŁ1.4bn. ie We would not only cover the cost of even more money to the NHS, but would do so with change to boot, answering the problem our kind host has posed.
* As stated by our kind host many years ago, I asked a question regarding NIC and if the money went directly to the NHS etc. His answer was that it did not and just went into general spending. I shall leave it to him if he now wishes to retract that.
Reply It was true then and now
September 4, 2021
The only reason we have NI both employers and employees (it is just more income tax anyway) is for government to disguise the real size of income tax rates. The basic rate is more like 40% when you combine both NIs and 20% income tax. Then of course we have 20% vat, fuel duty ~ 80%, council tax, alcohol duty, car taxes, stamp duty, car mugging fines, congestion charges, insurance tax 12%, landfill taxes, passport costs, licence costs, planning fees, building control fees, energy/carbon taxes, probate taxes, IHT40%, airport duty, Covid testing costs , Net zero tax/costs, amazing we can still manage to live on what is left!
And all this money for generally rather dire and declining public services!
September 4, 2021
The fact that all this tax is rolling round and being given out so people don’t have to work is all we need to know about political intentions by this not-Conservative government. Eventually confiscate everything and the only provision is from folk who are still willing to volunteer or work out of interest and for nothing.
September 4, 2021
JCVI say the benefit of vaccinating children 12 to 15 is only âmarginalâ. Not from the figures I have seen it is significantly negative and that is not even allowing for as yet uncertain long term risks. Also they should distinguish between male and female risks they are not the same and risk to those who have had Covid already very different again. Let us hope this Government and medical officers do not go down this duff road. The figures suggest vaccines for Women below about ~ 30 and men below about 25 have little or net benefit. Far more lives could be saves by spending this money in many other areas of healthcare. Cutting out delays in cancer scans and heart ops for example.
September 4, 2021
Telegraph Today:- Child jabs rollout to be pushed through. Ministers insist programme will go ahead despite scientific advisers saying benefits are âtoo smallâ.
Actually the benefits are negative. This would be another very large mistake. Do the government and Javid not understand numbers, logic, risk/reward and statistics?
September 4, 2021
Lifelogic, The “benefit” of the vaccines is already waning significantly for adults – hence the push for third (booster) jabs. And as you say the benefit to children is just not there, or is negative. What has definitely been bad for children is the lockdowns, the fear-mongering, the masks, and the disrupted school lives.
A GP I know says that he has never seen so many children with depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues – including self-harming. Vaccinating children for zero benefit when they’ve been harmed by existing government (and teacher union!) lockdown policies, shows how out-of-touch this government really is.
September 4, 2021
There is a National Insurance Fund – https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts. We must never allow any government to hijack this.
PAYE workers pay a lot more national insurance – 12% + their employerâs contribution based on their earnings 13.8%, so letâs call it 26% from ÂŁ797 per month up to ÂŁ4189 per month.
PAYE workers pay 5% Nest (extra National Insurance in effect specifically for their own pension with no defined benefit/they wonât even tell people what the expected % of the final salary it should achieve) + 3% employerâs contribution, so 8% from ÂŁ6240 pa [ÂŁ520 pcm].
In effect PAYE workers now pay 34% national insurance over ÂŁ800 per month for ease of reference. Your government John, a Conservative government now wants more from these same high contributors with no guarantees on anything from the level of expected medical care for their money to their state pension entitlement which is also been put further out of their reach and you think the waspi women are complaining just wait till everyone wakes up to this time bomb.
What savings have been made with over 100,000 unexpected EXCESS deaths from the retired age group on pensions, state basic, pension credits + public sector final salary pensions of the deceased, plus all that groups social care costs/homes and medical care – how much money did the government save this year? Surely the crisis in elderly care costs has dropped significantly not increased this year?
September 4, 2021
Spot On
September 4, 2021
Given that income tax was introduced as a temporary measure in 1799 to fund the Napoleonic wars, isn’t it about time the UK government abolished the tax.
Secondly, do you know that the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation are paying grants to the MHRA? If so, why is the UK medical regulatory agency accepting funding from a xxxx advocate of vaccinations?
The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation also fund GAVI the vaccine advocacy organisation.
Third question. Why, if the anti COVID-19 vaccines are so effective, was there recently an outbreak of COVID-19 on the flagship of the Royal Navy, when all the crew were reportedly ‘double vaccinated’ against COVID-19?
September 4, 2021
Yes, John, your regulars here do so love their cars, bless them, and if ever you need to distract them from anything else, then a related topic will always do the trick.
September 4, 2021
Totally agree Mark B. When is this government going to stop looking after the rest of the world and getting us to pay for it? I don’t know about others but I’m fed up with it.
September 8, 2021
“When is this government going to stop looking after the rest of the world and getting us to pay for it? I donât know about others but Iâm fed up with it.”
You are not alone, the next GE will no doubt have a very low turn out due to the this government’s inability to take action where needed.
They need to understand less talk and more action is required.
September 4, 2021
The real problem lies in Sir JRâs reply âGovernments never cut overall spendingâ. The problem suggests itâs own solution. Itâs no good tinkering with sporadic token here and there cuts in government spending. Whatâs needed is an edict requiring mandatory across the board cuts of say at least 5% per annum in every department plus a block on hiring. Not to mention privatising other activities that they have a hand in, including Network Rail, the BBC, Channel 4 and numerous others.
September 4, 2021
But that’s the problem, as JR stated, governments never cut overall spending. So it will be tax rises, not spending cuts.
We all know that the purpose of “smart” motorways is to tax all road vehicles for their use. That’s what all the shiny new gantries are for, whilst the road surface deteriorates.
Fuel taxes for petrol and diesel will remain, but road use taxation will just be added on top. As IC vehicle numbers dwindle, revenue will be made up with road tolls for all. That’s the plan.
September 4, 2021
Needless to say, I profoundly disagree with the establishment’s ongoing plans to foist expensive, and environmentally damaging, battery electric cars on to us. If we can afford it, of course. But their plan achieves three NWO goals: we get tracked – so part of the Chinese style social-credit system; the number of cars is drastically reduced – the plebs can use (diesel?) buses and trains; the establishment’s power over us is increased.
None of it will make any real difference to CO2 output, since we’ll just be outsourcing the manufacturing to third world countries. We’re now de-industrialised, and that’s counted as a bonus! CAGW (catastrophic irreversible global meltdown) is merely an irrational substitute religion, used as a tool to confound the masses, of course.
September 4, 2021
I think they did that with NI which is why it is a bit of an embarrassment for them.
Something like Turnpike Trusts would sort out road funding. Always assuming honest men could be found to run them.
September 4, 2021
Poorer people running old cars for longer are this often subsidising richer virtue signalling buyers of EVs usually as second or third+ cars. Plus the people running the old cars for longer are actually saving more CO2 than the virtue signallers! Not that CO2 is actually a serious problem.
We have no zero carbon electricity to charge them with anyway. EVs are not zero emission as Shapps thinks they are âemissions elsewhereâ cars and usually large net emissions once their manufacture is fully accounted for.
September 4, 2021
Well said, LL. And these irrefutable facts aren’t discussed nearly often enough. But then- when did Parliament actually ”discuss” anything meaningful and important to the nation’s well being?
September 4, 2021
Being cynical did this government promote âsmart electric metersâ home installation as a tool to collect future battery charging revenue
September 4, 2021
Glen Cullen
It also gives them the capability to disconnect your supply remotely if the renewables are failing to meet our needs as they most surely will
September 4, 2021
As well as different tarrifs at different times.
September 4, 2021
Government never cuts spending. Then now more than ever it should! I cant spend more than I earn. Stop it. Revert to conservatism. Get rid of tax credits and raise tax thresholds, hs2, foreign aid, immigration and its billions in costs. EU aid. There is so much waste. Cut Climate change emergency religion from Council budgets. Half of their staff could be sacked and no one would notice. MOD the same, all working from home walking their dogs, cutting their lawns. Your Government has no eye on the ball and totally lacks…..supervision and leadership!
September 4, 2021
I agree with every single word you say and so should every Tory MP
September 4, 2021
Timeaction, Exactly so, there are so many government programs that can (and must) be axed. Outrageously the government will be allowing in many Afghans (not just the ones who helped us), as well as sloshing dollops of our money to the Taliban for “promising” not to murder any more of their womenfolk. Please, JR, get rid of Boris Johnson. It is only because Labour, and the LDs, sold out to the EU that Johnson has escaped being run out of town.
September 4, 2021
Mark B – -from car users to public services and benefit programmes. – – and as more and more and more arrivals get here more and more cash is needed for them. THEY won’t be paying – – which only leaves our taxes – because WE can’t put ours in S America.
September 4, 2021
I would prefer to see the tax being cut as our Goverment has so much in the coffers it is able to throw our money at Pakistan, the financiers of islamic terrorism and a holder of nuclear weapons. The Government is far to free at distributing OUR money to the enemies of Great Britain, such bribery never does work
September 4, 2021
There is no connection between specific taxes and and any specific item of government spending. It all goes into the “Consolidated Fund” including NI payments which are treated slightly differently. Taxes are not hypothecated.
Meanwhile, while you are designing a new tax for EVs, keep in mind you will have to replace circa ÂŁ33 billion a year in fuel vat, fuel duty and VED. You could spread that across 360 billion vehicle miles travelled per year (circa 65 billion on motorways); in a non-Covid year that is.
Alternatively, you put the tax on kWh of battery charging. Say all UK 31 million petrol and diesel cars were each replaced by a battery EV in the next couple of decades. Each EV doing about 7,500 miles a year at circa 0.3 kWh per mile, equals 2,250 kWh of charging per year per EV. About 70 billion kWh per year in addition to the 300 billion kWh the UK consumed from National Grid in 2019. That would increase my electric bill by about 60%. đ
September 4, 2021
A-tracy has kindly posted, further back, the relevant link to the NI fund’s accounts, Acorn.
However, its critics say that NI is a regressive tax and indeed it is in some ways, but to suggest that Council Tax would be a better way to fund some things would mean replacing that with an even more regressive tax – in essence still a poll tax. The Duke of Devonshire only pays the same for Chatsworth as does the owner of an ordinary suburban four or five bedroomed detached house, after all.
September 4, 2021
Acorn, It’s better to calculate the electricity required for road transport by using the total mileage for all road vehicles of 360 billion vehicle miles (strictly 356.5bvm, DfT road traffic, 2019). About 6% of that is heavy vehicles with nowhere near the energy use of 0.3kWh per mile. That comes in at about 134 billion kWh annually ((0.94 x 360 x 0.3) + (0.06 x 360 x 1.5) billion kWh), assuming trucks and buses at 5 times less energy efficient per mile. That’s nearly twice your estimate.
Strictly, consumption of electricity was about 280 billion kWh (DUKES, 2019), not your 300TWh, since c23TWh is consumed by the electricity industry. That makes transport electricity requirements about half of existing use on top of existing use. But the government has no plans to increase the generating capacity between now and 2040 (BEIS). So much for battery vehicles, or even hydrogen vehicles.
September 5, 2021
I am assuming current government thinking that the seven million commercial vehicles that operate from a base depot, will run on Hydrogen. I have doubts about that. When trucks get a battery that can do 500 – 600 miles with on route pantograph charging like trains, hydrogen may end up a long distance energy carrier from solar electrolysis in the tropics.
September 5, 2021
A global grid would mean that they could export the electrical energy directly with ten or more times the efficiency, however.
September 5, 2021
Acorn, That’s irrelevant. Hydrogen will be “made” using electricity – H2 is just a means of storing electricity – the conversion and storage costs of it will add onto the cost of the electricity itself. But the electricity will still be used, so my estimate still stands. And even if trucks do charge from pantographs, the electricity still gets used.
Importing H2 (and electricity) from afar brings its own problems and costs. The government (and you) cannot escape the fact that a lot more base load will be required to convert road transport fuel from petrol/diesel to electricity. And that’s before adding in the extra electricity to power electric homes.
The government is not building, or even planning, that extra electricity generation (BEIS). So it’s all hot air, to match the CAGW religion.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
Much to the disgust of some people on this site that older members of the society even exist, we can remember when cars were very few in the roads we lived, children walked or biked to school. Men biked to work or caught the bus. We were not dependent on the car.
Nobody can not have noticed during every school holiday period that driving to work there is a lot less traffic on the roads. The long term plan of government is perceived to restrict and reduce freedom of travel.
If the country had better infrastructure the taxing of vehicles irrespective of method of power transmission the cost should be for miles travelled with no allowances for who and what the journeys are intended for. The only problem is it would automatically put the cost up on the living costs because too much has to be delivered by road.
Are the problems being presented really a problem or are they just solutions. More knee jerk reactions like a lot of what we are being subjected to lately are not the answer. Whatever is decided the cost of transport has to be if it uses the roads it pays no exceptions. How the money is collected the jury is out for a long time.
September 4, 2021
Men could bike/walk to work because jobs were local and schools were mostly within safe walking distance.
Doh! It had never struck me before that of course they are relaxed about overcrowded roadsâŠthe more cars âŠ.the more tax money to waste!
Oh dear âŠand then the conundrum of how to squeeze ÂŁÂŁÂŁÂŁs out of electric cars!!
September 4, 2021
We have been brainwashed into believing that taxing car purchase, car fuel and a annual ownership tax is the normâŠits not; itâs a robin-hood tax i.e lets tax everything philosophy
September 4, 2021
Of course older people also know that when they were young the country’s population was around 45 million and now it’s 70 million+. Hence more cars.
September 5, 2021
In 1960 it was 53 million.
It’s now sixty-seven million, a 28% increase, not some huge multiple.
The growth in building has largely been about preventing overcrowding, divorce etc., besides housing new people.
You must mean rather older people than most commenters here.
September 4, 2021
Turbo – – The long term plan of government is perceived to restrict and reduce freedom of travel. – – but NOT for the elite – only for the taxed.
September 4, 2021
The only sensible reason to buy an electric car is if you live in say London, have somewhere to park and charge it, probably as a second car and get the tax breaks and congestion charge benefits. Otherwise they make little or no sense at all, not even in CO2 terms. A hybrid that uses a small battery in town can make sense. Taking some pollution out of the city. Remove the tax breaks etc. and they make even less sense.
September 4, 2021
Unfortunately this authoritarian battering ram of a government doesnât do sense or logic!
September 4, 2021
Thought and prayer for the day.
Please, please do not let You Know Who renew the âFlu Act.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
Amen to that
September 4, 2021
+1. Net zero is logically mad, vastly expensive & political insanity too.
September 4, 2021
+1
Absolutely spot on!
September 4, 2021
And impossible?
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
@ Mark B – so do the billions raised through Stamp Duty Land Tax not go to provide housing, or more stamps perhaps?
September 4, 2021
No, the net effect is rather less housing as it makes some projects uneconomic and thus not worth building. Also it kills job mobility and deters people from moving home. Government shooting the economy in the foot again. Up to a ÂŁ15k increase by Socialist anti business Sunak recently.
September 4, 2021
Land transfer tax. Fixed it.
September 4, 2021
Stamp duty surely is a form of land transfer tax.
September 4, 2021
If you read my views on Stamp Duty (tax) you will know that I see it as a naked theft by government. What right or reason does government have in what is a PRIVATE TRANSACTION which it plays no direct role ?
September 4, 2021
+10
September 4, 2021
The Land Registry records the title and any charges against it, such as from mortgages. That is a service provided by the state for which a charge is reasonable. Given that there is some risk of a transfer of title conducted fraudulently, there is a case for an insurance premium related to the size of the risk, in which property value would be the largest factor. But beyond these elements, the tax is designed to limit sales of more expensive properties, especially if they are also at risk of CGT. Executor sales become the norm.
September 4, 2021
It is tax, a reasonable fee might be ÂŁ10 or less.
September 4, 2021
I’m sure your Gov. or any future Gov. will come up with new ways to screw the motorist. You’ve always managed previously.
Roads/drivers the cash cow for Gov. spending.
September 4, 2021
Thatâs probably why theyâre worried about the lack of revenue from electric cars
Being cynical did this government promote âsmart electric metersâ as a tool to collect future battery charging revenue
September 4, 2021
Road charging will happen, FACT. My advice? ignore politicians who say it won’t happen. In fact ignore politicians full stop
Vehicular technology is advancing so quickly that by 2025 each ICE and EV car will almost become an I-Phone on wheels with a digital chassis. Say, a computer with four wheels.
5G Wireless technology, LIDAR, ADAS, DMS (for facial recognition and driver monitoring), OMS (occupant monitoring) and other forms of vehicular tech will give the State, public sector organisations and private companies access to huge amounts of data that you accumulate while driving.
I believe you will have as a driver an individual user account tied to your car via the DVLA and the car’s reg. The DVLA thanks to technological developments that exist today (in the State) will know where you go and how far you have travelled and will charge you accordingly at the end of each week
C-V2X will allow each car to interact through an all encompassing network with every other car and anything else besides incluidng public transport, pedestrians, bikes, shops and homes. This web will destroy your privacy.
All of this is happening today. And now we have in development such stuff like AI Auto tech (Artificial intelligence) that can turn almost make the driver redundant though that’s a decade away or so.
The car will become an I-Phone on wheels
If anyone is interested in this stuff look at companies like Qualcomm who are producing software that will turn the car into an Apple IPhone.
GM’s Super Cruise in the US is now active allowing hands free driving on highways. TESLA Autopilot and Ford’s BlueCruise. All DMS installed, Facial recognition etc
It’s all there for the State to exploit for a tax grab that will make your eyes bleed
Technology in all areas of life is allowing the State to assert total control over all aspects of life and movement.
September 4, 2021
Dom :
You are right that all this can happen.
The weekly or monthly DVLA bill will not only include the road pricing but also any driving fines for misdemeanours such as speeding, caught in box junctions or bus lanes, illegal parking or turning etc..
I read that Apple intends to introduce an EV by 2024 and I would guess that when the batteries are exhausted it will be necessary to purchase a whole new vehicle.
September 4, 2021
Original Richard, One major problem – the government is not building any extra power (electricity) stations. No fuel, no mass BEV transport.
So either the government intends that most of us should relinquish our cars, or the BEV push is just total twaddle.
September 4, 2021
NickC
I agree.
My prediction is that electricity will become expensive and rationed to curb demand and intermittent with the government informing us by text when the wind is blowing at the right speed and we are allowed to turn on our washing machines and charge our BEVs.
September 4, 2021
We should all fear ‘big brother’
September 4, 2021
Correct.
September 4, 2021
DOM – There are other mobile phones available…
And road pricing via existing telematics technology is easy and could be implemented today if the Government thought it could get away with it.
September 4, 2021
I wonder if that info could be used as evidence in a court of law against infidelity
September 4, 2021
Where I live 20 year old cars are common. I am sure everything you said will come to pass. I wonât be around to see it. I think that in the figure the 1960s and 1970s will be seen as a golden age.
September 4, 2021
Reading some of the numerous very interesting discussion forum documents for this week’s Far Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok,I came across this under “Unmanned Logistics Corridors:Russia is building a digital bridge between Asia and Europe”:-
“The starting point will be the M-11 Neva-the world’s first motorway that will be populated by unmanned lorries by 2024.The proven solutions will be scaled to the central ringroad,the M-12 from Moscow to Ekaterinburg(1800km)which is currently under construction and c20,000km of federal highways.”
If they can get that underway successfully “by 2024” that would be extraordinary.I’m sure (the execution of)these projects owe much to the appointment of Mikhail Mishushtin as Prime Minister a couple of years ago-a very successful and wealthy digital entrepreneur.
Two other discussion topics also caught my eye:
“Logistics is the new oil of the Russian economy.”
“Dollar Free model of the world economy integration,supranational currency and a new system of international transactions as a driver for regional and global trade development.”
I don’t know if the substance of these forum discussions is going to be published but I will watch with interest.
September 4, 2021
Very interesting Mitchell.
Dom is correct.
John, your government doesnât need any more ideas from us on how to squeeze more tax out of people. If you go ahead with a new national insurance tax on predominantly paye workers already paying eye watering amounts on their total income with no offsets it will be a mistake. All the while paying other people to be idle on furlough this month when there is plenty of fill in basic work to be had!
September 4, 2021
I share your concerns on these points Dom, which goes to show that there will be widespread opposition right across the spectrum of political outlook.
I am heartened by the resistance offered to Smart Meters though, so all is not lost.
September 5, 2021
Martin, You so admire the Chinese system of social control that I’m shocked to learn that you too are opposed to “smart” meters! Haven’t you had your daily dose of Noddy technology from the Grauniad, or Andy, yet?
September 5, 2021
Why do you claim to know what I think on matters where I have passed no opinion?
I wouldn’t want to live in China at all, but their extinguishment of their covid19 outbreak was pretty commendable.
September 4, 2021
I wouldnât worry.
Just rest assured that if something can be taxed Our Dear Leader will find away of taxing it.
A compulsory tax on a compulsory vax?
September 4, 2021
‘A compulsory tax on top of a compulsory tax.’
Inheritance tax.
September 4, 2021
only compulsory for the little people who need their cash and assets to live until they die. Anyone with spare can plan.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
Yes we should have a level fiscal playing field between electric cars or ICU cars and between cars and trains, trams, buses, planes. Also between the NHS and private medicine and with schools and private education using vouchers. Freedom of choice and some fair competition between the state and private enterprise for a change.
September 4, 2021
Ll, +1.
Youâve reduced the issue, as you always do, to the fundamentals.
Government does the opposite, layers and layers of obfuscation, sleight of hand, and to sell an unwanted and useless product. Untrustworthy Spivs.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
Ll, +1.
Youâve reduced the issue, as you always do, to the fundamentals.
Government does the opposite, layers and layers of obfuscation, sleight of hand, and to sell an unwanted and useless product. Untrustworthy Spivs.
Subsidised actions are all too likely to prove to be long term failures. Let the market honestly decide.
September 4, 2021
Tax is a grotesque rip off of a milch cow working population. It is used to finance unprofitable and totally inefficient services. If you disagree you have recourse to highlighting any government or local government service you would describe as efficient. I thought not. The answer to your last question is to stop spending, an unlikely course of action for a system wedded to spending other peoples money. When government does it to assets acquired from income that has already been taxed it becomes theft.
September 4, 2021
Anything beyond the cost of providing the very few things that governments can actually do better than individuals, businesses or charities is surely just theft?
Health and education are certainly not to be included here.
September 4, 2021
Why does John believe the State should continue to enjoy ever greater levels of funding ad infinitum and without interruption by continual increases in tax and public debt? This destructive narrative that the State deserves to be showered with ever increasing levels of funding without question is authoritarian drivel.
John never calls for reform of the State, always calls for more funding. This is the new Socialist Tory party pandering to Labour’s Socialist client state.
I like Mr Redwood but he’s become a Socialist and in some cases Marxist like his leader Mr Johnson
It was Gove who deliberately and sneekily referenced the Frankfurt School some time ago which gave the game away to those who understand the underhand tactics of the new Tory Marxist clan
Stop the pretence and admit that the Tory party is now a fully paid up member of Marxism in its most subtle form
Reply Do stop lying and calling everyone a Marxist. I have often made the case for spending cuts or for avoiding new spending. E.g. fewer economic migrants, more realistic railway cost, no HS2, no payments to EU, cuts in overseas aid, no changes to social care eligibility ,
September 4, 2021
reply to reply: Unfortunately the rhetorical manner of your question here does you no favours: “So I ask you all in a genuine spirit of enquiry how should the government handle revenue loss from electric cars?”
I think Mrs Thatcher would answer as a one liner “by decreasing state spending”, whereas you’re inferring that more and more tax has to be found somewhere. That inference is pointing us in the direction of Marxism as opposed to “all tax is theft.” Don’t you agree?
Reply I am posing the question as governments see it. I do not expect any elected government to find more than ÂŁ20 bn annual savings to replace fuel duties. Most of my proposed spending reductions since 2010 starting with HS2 have been rejected.
September 4, 2021
Well JR and perhaps 100 or so Tory MPs are clearly not socialists & climate alarmists but the vast majority clearly are. Only a handful did not vote for the insane climate change act for example and little resistance to the net zero insanity and recent huge tax hikes.
September 4, 2021
Sir John: I agree that calling everyone a Marxist is wrong.
Calling them “Communitarian” appears to be more accurate. What this disgraceful Government certainly isn’t is conservative in any traditional sense of the word.
September 6, 2021
Why must Conservatism exclude any element of communitarianism?
Is your assumption that the electorate is composed entirely of cats?
September 4, 2021
Dom talking out of his hat. When has JR. ever called for more funding? And he certainly is no marxist nor does he show any marxist tendencies. I just wish JR was in government.
September 4, 2021
Clearly EVs are going to have to be taxed (as happens now in nearly half U.S. states, CA included) and in due course sufficiently highly to make-up the loss from replacement of ICE vehicles for the Exchequer cannot afford otherwise. (Obviously motorists have money or they would not be motoring so, like all possessed of wealth, are fully eligible to be captured by the rapacious hand of taxation.)
With new technology allowing use to be measured, obviously fresh possibilities are presented as to how tax is levied. A use-based system may be typically fairer than one imposing a flat fee.
Tax arrangements ought to capture foreign-registered goods vehicles on our roads too.
September 4, 2021
Novel idea, how about reducing public spending.
September 4, 2021
+1, just cut out the waste and the net harm spending that is over 50%.
September 4, 2021
To reduce state spending you have to be honest with people about what the state spends money on. The biggest single item of state spending is pensions – more than ÂŁ100bn per year. Add in social care, which they now want to charge me even more for, and the huge burden the elderly put on the NHS and you quickly find that, by far, the biggest chunk of spending goes on the old.
Iâd axe the lot of it. Then you can properly cut taxes. You seemed to think leaving the EU or cutting foreign aid would save you money and lead to your taxes being cut. Didnât work, did it? Because both of those items are negligible in state spending terms.
It is deeply ironic that those of you who moan most about tax are largely the ones who get the most massive handouts from the state. And, no. You mostly havenât paid as much in as you take out.
Reply The NHS costs more than your ÂŁ100bn figure
September 4, 2021
The government agrees with you about pensions Andy. It has already started referring to it as a benefit and the actuarial output of the Workplace pension scheme after 40 years will be the equivalent of current state pension levels. At that point state pension will be withdrawn but public sector pensions, which account for a reasonable slice of pension payments by the state, will continue to be paid.
Education is ÂŁ90 billion (at least they haven’t written of the Student loans yet)
Health is ÂŁ150 billion+
Welfare is ÂŁ113 billion plus (all these in a non Covid year when pensions were not increased but spending in every other area was).
Why so obsessed with just the one area of “discretionary” public expenditure
September 4, 2021
Yes, the NHS was estimated some time ago to cost 1/5 of the UK’s total GDP, and indeed the elderly receive more from it than the young and have done for decades. Much of the former is, I would suggest, because of its appalling management and apparent inability to run a whelk-stall; much of the latter is because there is far too much public sentimentality about prolonging the lives of the elderly.
However, having noted today’s news that an 11-month old child has just received a drug that is listed at a price of ÂŁ1.79million for 1 dose, I doubt that its parents have contributed anything like that during their working lives either?
September 4, 2021
This should be implemented just when you retire, or suffer from an expensive ailment. Or perhaps you don’t plan to grow old?
September 4, 2021
Reply to Reply – And what has Afghanistan alone cost us over years, cost of all the arms left there, cost of thousands coming here and cost of continued “Aid” being handed to them?
September 4, 2021
This Conservative govt is far from ideal to me, and seems to be moving ever more in the direction of big state dirigisme and all manner of fatuous virtue signalling. But itâs still better than your bunch of woke, far-left statists.
Our only hope is I think that you can get Starmer & Sturgeon (in reality thatâs the alternative coalition) to take up some of your ideas – abolish pensions, ban old people from the NHS, re-join the EU including the euro, probably all sorts of (extra) ludicrous âgreenâ policies. Any chance you could do that for us?
September 4, 2021
Road-pricing would require extensive infrastructure and associated wasteful capital and resource spending. A much simpler method of collecting revenue is the annual car tax that we pay today. There is no reason why electric car owners should pay less towards the maintenance of our roads than the owner of an ICE vehicle: they both trundle. There is a stronger case that foreign trundlers coming over the Channel on a ferry should be charged a toll before leaving the port confines.
September 4, 2021
Road pricing could be introduced with zero infrastructure being needed on the roads. Instead you attach a small device to the cars. Itâs incredibly easy to do.
September 4, 2021
In Russia
September 4, 2021
Andy, You just can’t help demonstrating your technical illiteracy, can you? It is not “incredibly easy” to install 40 million new road pricing trackers on the UK’s whole fleet of road vehicles. It would take years to accomplish because not only would the devices have to be manufactured then retro-fitted on older vehicles in a rolling program, but the dedicated vehicle monitoring, database (DVLA?), pricing, billing, and enforcement systems would need implementing.
September 4, 2021
My car insurance policy uses a tracker to track the miles I do. I then pay for insurance by the mile. Adapting this for road pricing would be straightforward.
It took me precisely 15 seconds to fit the device in my car. I did it myself. The device slots into the carâs ODB-11 socket. These sockets are used by mechanics during services to diagnose what is wrong with your car. Thanks to European rules the OBD-11 have been standard in vehicles since 1996. So your car probably has one. And you didnât even realise.
September 5, 2021
Multiply your device by 35 million and then supply the necessary administration as I have already outlined.
Have you ever actually run a business Andy?
September 5, 2021
Times 40 million, Andy. And then the implementation and operation of government systems for monitoring, database (DVLA?) management, pricing, billing, and enforcement. Think of the government’s costs of running 40 million accounts versus the cost of putting another 5p on petrol tax. And you didnât even realise.
September 4, 2021
Zero infrastructure says andy….a device in every vehicle…so that’s tens of if millions of devices all linked to a huge central office where computers costing millions overseen by thousands of staff send bills to every single vehicle owners account and then ensure the bills are paid.
Whilst two other departments deal with customers who dispute their charges and take legal action against people who won’t pay.
September 4, 2021
Andy. Isn’t there a shortage of chips at the moment?
September 4, 2021
Andy – do you really want a government like this one – or worse – to know your exact whereabouts at all times?
You can always put your phone in a metal container if you want to avoid being tracked that way after all.
September 4, 2021
…and an even simpler method of collecting revenue is to replace all other taxes and just tax fuel…oh petrol is already taxed so heavily that it would be embarrassing to increase any further….oh and the governments plan is to remove all petrol cars
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
SW Not the case…
We have telematics for insurance purposes on one of our cars (young driver).
This shows exactly when and where the car is used.
Would be very easy to change this to bill for miles travelled based on roads taken and time of day. May be also automatically send us a ticket for speeding… đ
It’s there already….
September 4, 2021
Telematics this year, barcode tattoos next year
September 4, 2021
Glen, more likely use the technology used on dogs and cats – micro chip inserted at birth… Clearly this government see us as no more than that…
September 4, 2021
If we tax foreign lorries, then foreign countries will just tax our lorries reciprocally. For drivers who have paid vehicle duty already, it then becomes double taxation.
There is a case for taxing Irish thoroughfare though. Again, to avoid double taxation, claim against the Irish and European states that run the lorries across our road network.
September 4, 2021
How much in road-tolls would you pay between Calais and the Cote d’Azur? And how much would a French tourist be invited to pay between Dover and the Lake District? Answers: A lot – and nothing.
September 4, 2021
Sea-Warrior
Agree road tolls in France (if you use the motorway system) are substantial, but from experience their Motorway surfaces are of better quality than ours, and certainly if any remedial work is going on, they get on with it and finish it rapidly.
Likewise they build new roads very much quicker than we do.
September 5, 2021
You might usefully research the extent to which out-sourcing is used for such projects there eh?
September 5, 2021
MicM
I can only speak as I find having driven thousands of miles in Europe, and France in particular.
I do not know who they use for construction or repair of their roads, but they seem to be doing a far better job than we get over, here so perhaps lessons should be learn’t.
It could be down to Planning, supervision, or materials used, as well as labour and machinery.
September 4, 2021
A number of foreign countries already do tax our lorries regardless, and did so even when we were in the EU. Germany for instance.
September 4, 2021
@Sea_Warrior
Those of a certain age may remember the British Sea Harriers that won the Falklands war for us, but were sold off on the cheap to the US Marine Corps in Cameron’s malign 2010 SDSR when he also scrapped three of our Invincible class carriers.
There have been rumours in naval circles for some months that the MoD may be buying a few of the improved US Marine variant back – to be operated from the latest carrier HMS Prince of Wales. In place of the F35b variant that we can no longer afford. Well, the cockpit of one was spotted yesterday on her deck, see:-
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/harrier-spotted-on-deck-of-hms-prince-of-wales
Rumours (that have not been denied) are rife around the Admiralty that HMS Prince of Wales will be based at Gibraltar, to deter any post-Brexit Spanish stropiness over British sovereignty.
September 5, 2021
Sakara, Indeed the 2010 SDSR was bone-brained. Why scrap the pocket carriers and the newly re-furbished Harriers before the Q.E. class carriers were operational?
However, your link contains the following statement: “The vessel isnât going to start operating Harriers, get that out of your head right now.” I could more easily see drones operating from the Q.E. class than Harriers now.
September 4, 2021
I see some problems:
1. If ‘power’ is taxed at the charging point (a bit like getting fuel at a petrol station), how will it be taxed if you charge your car at home?
2. One is taxed not only on fuel, but also – via vehicle licensing – for simply owning a car: can we assume that will continue as usual? And will electric scooters, if approved, also be licensed?
3. Although those eligible are charged National Insurance, it is often foggily but wrongly assumed that it is paid into a special fund for State Pensions and to fund the NHS. This leads to a far wider issue – how should we be taxed? Like it or not, the State has to raise money to provide services and government – but taxation is also used to manipulate behaviour and trade according to the mores of the day. The combination of purposes contributes to the massive complexity of tax laws, and incentivises evasion/avoidance.
Instead of chasing rainbows such as AGW, the Government should be setting up a COMPLETE AND URGENT REVIEW of both the tax system and its purposes.
September 4, 2021
SM : âI see some problems:
1. If âpowerâ is taxed at the charging point (a bit like getting fuel at a petrol station), how will it be taxed if you charge your car at home?â
The government will ensure that car batteries will be recognisable by the chargers (any home car chargers will require smart meters to be installed) and the price/tax on the electricity used to charge cars can be increased.
Iâm expecting the government to increase the VAT on home fuel to 20% anyway âto curb energy use and save the planetâ.
September 4, 2021
On smart meters my electricity supplier is putting up the standard use rate but is offering a discounted rate for a one year contract but only if I accept a smart meter. These are being increasingly forced on us.
September 4, 2021
I get a text almost every week to say the installation team is in my area
September 4, 2021
Now I just wonder why they promoted ‘smart electric meters’ on everyone
September 4, 2021
Thank you for raising this important issue JR, because I certainly am one who firmly believes the government will actually raise even more the tax rate on ICE vehicles in time, simply to try to clear them off the road before they start to tax Electric vehicles, for the simple reason they need the money, you cannot allow a massive tax take (ÂŁ35 Billion is it) to simply go missing.
Taxation of vehicles has always been to screw the motorist for as much as possible.
Just look at the total tax take on motorists and transport vehicles in general.
Taxed when the vehicle is purchased new.
Taxed annually to be on the road.
Taxed when fuel is purchased.
Taxed on servicing charges.
Taxed on consumable spare parts.
Taxed/cost of parking fees.
Taxed/cost of permit holders parking (outside your own house)
Taxed on Toll roads and bridges.
Taxed/cost on Congestion charges
Taxed/cost on Emission Zones.
Income gained from fines.
Does anyone who plans to purchase an electric car really think these will not apply to an Electric vehicle. ?
The simple question is when, and how much.
September 4, 2021
It has to be a pay as you drive charge. It could be a sliding scale where the first say 5000 miles are free. Credits could be given for cycling and taking public transport. All of this is possible with connected vehicle technology. No, or little, publicly funded infrastructure is required.
September 4, 2021
Wonderful!
Now the government will track our every movement, but of course this data will be ring-fenced and not shared liberally with the local council, the NHS, social services and even schools, to see if your children really went to the doctor’s surgery in the morning or how often they consume fast food. All this before big tech starts to access the data in search of ever greater profits.
Your suggestion will undoubtedly appeal to government, but it is a nightmare for civil liberty, and you should bear in mind, even if the current government were not so inclined and didnt lack the ability to organise anything on that scale, that future governments might not be so well intentioned.
September 4, 2021
Progressive VED on all cars based on their weight as this is what damages roads. EV pollution is at manufacture as getting the rare earth metals and lithium are very dirty.
MOTs are compulsory so easy to capture the mileage and increase VED rather than road pricing infrastructure.
I also agree with others here who say Government should be holding their expenditure or reducing it. Cut your cloth, we all have to.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
AND they will be able to use it to limit the distance we travel.
September 4, 2021
Fuel tax is pay as you drive.
September 4, 2021
David Williams : “Credits could be given for cycling and taking public transport. All of this is possible with connected vehicle technology.”
Do you really want the government to have access to and control everything you do?
Do you want to go down the road of having a social credit/debit card ?
September 4, 2021
Pay-As-You-Drive is a ‘big brother’ concept……it needs GPS monitoring (which is embedded in all electric cars and thats why I’ll never own one)
September 4, 2021
Credits for good behaviour eh ……. so a fan of the Social Credit System in use in China?
Do you like being treated like a child ….. and being given a gold star for being a good little boy?
September 4, 2021
You forgot, taxed on insurance.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
July 6th 2015
âIt is outrageous that multi-billion-pound companies are mainlining money from the welfare system and using it to subsidise low pay.â
So âfurloughâ đ€ź wasnât like that then? Oh noâŠit was paid by the taxpayer to replace entire wages! And rich employers paid not a penny I guess. ( Or a small % maybe..10% rising to 20%?).
And now yet another obligatory cleft stick on top of âNo jab, no jobâ.
Pay by the mile or no car ( since petrol will become illegal). Convenient for curtailing our travel!!!
Unless you tories wake up all the predicted miseries will happen under thisâŠ..person.
Who pays?
We ALWAYS do!
September 4, 2021
Why should EVs be exempt from taxes? They should pay the same as ICEs. Otherwise the government of the day will simply load the lost tax revenues on other spending, on income or the air we breathe. If CO2 is the problem many claim it to be (a view I do not share) why are we not being taxed for the CO2 and methane we exhale as humans? Such a measure would surely help keep the birth rate down and save the planet. For those who think this might be a daft idea, I remind them that a cabinet paper was produced during Blair’s time as PM on taxing cattle this way. Even the International Aid budget was raided to send scientists to Colombia to set up a research project into the practical implications and applications of the idea of measuring cattle emissions; presumably they thought better of doing it in the UK for fear of ridicule. In short, any excuse will do to “justify” more and/or new taxes. EVs are not sacred cows to be spared the burden of taxes.
September 4, 2021
Battery electric cars are subsidised. That’s right – a poor man driving a 10 year old Punto is subsidising rich people – like Andy if he buys a Tesla, as he has promised to do – to pose in a battery car.
September 4, 2021
“I do not have a good answer to offer”.
Therein lies the problem. One of our most experienced, knowledgeable and financially-minded MPs has no viable solution to the thorny issues generated by the headlong, virtue-signalling rush to EVs. Well given they’re priced way above what an average family can afford, surely the tax on the original purchase must compensate for some loss of fuel duty. And even on home charging points, VAT at 5% is still going to be levied on each battery top-up? This does all have the feel of an age when the richest drove around in Daimler-Benz sedans and the proles in rusty Trabants.
But with worldwide shortages of the vital minerals required for huge EV batteries, and with no clean solution available to recycle said batteries, we have an impending ‘perfect storm’ of millions of obsolescent diesel and petrol powered vehicles -that fully meet the needs of their owners – being disposed of, while millions of EVs – that will never fully meet the needs of society (think large buses, vans, lorries, let alone private cars) being both too expensive to buy and punitively taxed to use. And all because the Western world – yes only the Western world – has bought into a group of “modellers” whose lamentable predictions over five decades have never come true and who cannot say with any certainty what the climate or weather will be even if all of these green campaigns are completed. Which they won’t be. You couldn’t make it up.
September 4, 2021
Mike P, +1, Very good comment, thank you.
September 4, 2021
MikeP, Well said.
September 4, 2021
OT, but why are we discussing road pricing (which must be inevitable and has already been urged by Tony Blair, so it must be coming in) instead of the much more topical and indefensible decision by the government to extend it’s own emergency Covid powers for another six months? Or indefinitely?
Powers of detention.
Powers to ban gatherings.
Powers of censorship.
Powers to lockdown households.
Powers to force schoolchildren to wear masks.
Powers to disrupt education.
Powers to force children to be vaccinated with or without parental consent.
Powers to fine individuals extortionately disproportionate amounts.
Powers to disrupt holidays.
Powers to force care workers to be vaccinated.
Powers to govern by coercion instead of by consent.
September 4, 2021
Quite right, Matthu. Let’s not talk about the elephant in the room.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
Very interesting development that liberal spring dot org is outlining ten pledges relating to lockdowns, vaccinations, health passports, end to mass community screening, and a call for a full public equiry in part to investigate misattribution of C19 deaths and data recording.
But perhaps pledge number 10 is the most interesting: “Avoid discussion about rejoining the EU.”
If Tory rebels are not already alarmed and not extremely alert, the above pledges could wipe all “Conservatives” out of government for over forty years. Just saying.
September 4, 2021
I have just listened to the 2-minute video presentation on the liberal spring dot org web site. Worth a listen.
Imagine if Tory rebels (and ex-Tory rebels no longer in Westminster) did a reverse takeover?
1. Suppose they were to lose the vote regarding extension on C19 emergency powers.
2. Immediately and vociferously support all 10 of the pledges outlined on aforementioned web site.
3. Emphasise how far Conservativism has moved from being able to support any of these pledges.
3. Loudly oppose any extension of totalitarian powers.
4. Provide a suitable chairperson for a political party urgently in need of new direction.
5. Take millions of people – and the country – with you!
September 4, 2021
In my household we have different accounts for different expenses, savings, household costs and so on.
How can a country just run on just one pot?
I was puzzled by the statement about income from car driverâs etc being hugely greater than needed. My thought was, well how can the terrible state of roads be explained. Now I know!
What a pigs ear, this countryâs finances are in. We know people who run their finances like that, they donât, their finances run them! How has this been allowed to happen?
As for electric cars and taxation⊠another thing that wasnât thought through.
We need a whirlwind of common sense and efficiency brought to the table, and start again with sorting out our finances. And it would seem we might need to rein in on giving to charity. (Foreign Aid), choose who genuinely is in need, or set up trading to promote that country.
There needs to be some sort of select committee to question civil servants and sack those who are working to their own agenda. That might make life easier if dead wood is allowed to go. Then work our way through the other institutions. And why is PHE still around, I thought theyâd been dismantled?
September 4, 2021
Sharon – How has this been allowed to happen? – it has NOT been ” allowed to happen” – Planned.
September 4, 2021
But not necessarily “planned” by this government, otherwise there would be proper opposition somewhere. So planned by others and “allowed to happen” by Labour and Conservatives.
September 5, 2021
Sharon
SACK!!!!? civil servants.
OMG if only they could and would.
Must not forget the quangos while they are at it.
September 4, 2021
I am puzzled by the idea of âroad pricingâ. We already have it! Over 60% of the pump price is tax. So, the more you use the roads – the more tax you pay. Itâs a simple and effective way to charge people for using the roads. Any system of road pricing would no doubt be bureaucratic, inefficient and cost more to implement than it raises.
At the moment electric car owners are avoiding fuel duty. They are just paying 5% VAT on the electricity. The profit on the electricity goes to the generator/supplier. Given the transition to electric vehicles, perhaps this is an argument for nationalising electricity- so the government gets the profits.
September 4, 2021
“The profit on the electricity goes to the generator/supplier. Given the transition to electric vehicles, perhaps this is an argument for nationalising electricity- so the government gets the profits.”
Or – as most of our energy is being imported from the EU …
September 4, 2021
Not true, as you know. It is a small percentage and we buy it from our neighbours.
September 5, 2021
Our main source of energy imports is Norway for oil and gas, with much of the latter used in power stations.
Our electricity imports continue to rise and recently hit 20% of supply briefly. Currently, we can import 3GW from France, 1GW from the Netherlands, 1 GW from Belgium and a total of 1GW from Ireland, although that only happens when it is windy there – we often supply Ireland when there is little wind, increasing our need for imports from elsewhere. Soon to be added is 1.4GW from Norway, currently undergoing testing – it actually spent an hour exporting to Norway at full capacity on Friday, helping to keep electricity prices very high, another 1GW via the Channel Tunnel from France, and another 1.4GW from Denmark. Yet more links are planned.
September 4, 2021
The plethora of taxes for the motorist, as well as for the citizen in general, is merely an artifice to disguise the true level of taxation.
September 4, 2021
Whilst that is true, what else could be done? You canât just have one tax – on income, for example. That would not be fair.
September 4, 2021
Fair & transparent
September 4, 2021
Would there be any profit if electricity production became a nationalised industry again?
September 5, 2021
It is effectively nationalised already, and as you might expect, consuming large amounts of subsidy. IIRC about ÂŁ13bn according to the latest Budget Red Book. That excludes some of the costs of inefficient operation that are simply charged to customers, including rapidly rising balancing costs for handling intermittent supply from renewables, and extra transmission equipment to be able to handle all the unusual flows that come with having so much renewable power on the system.
September 4, 2021
Mike Wilson : âI am puzzled by the idea of âroad pricingâ. We already have it! Over 60% of the pump price is tax. So, the more you use the roads â the more tax you pay.â
Correct, and there is also an advantage in that everyone pays this tax including those who do not pay their VED and/or illegal immigrants and/or those in the black economy.
September 4, 2021
The problem is that by 2030 this government wants to remove petrol pump stations and petrol carsâŠ..theyâre just not part of the green revolution
September 4, 2021
This isnât true. New petrol cars will not be available from 2030 but existing ones will be around for many years beyond that.
September 5, 2021
We’ll be lucky if there’s one petrol station left per city and the price at the pump will be xxxxx
September 5, 2021
So, by 2030, the government does want to remove petrol stations and petrol cars, Andy? It may take time to implement, but that is the cut off date when the purge begins.
September 4, 2021
Mike, It’s a non-problem. The government are not building the extra electricity generating plants needed to fuel 40 million battery electric road vehicles in 2040. So it’s not going to happen.
One way round the problems is to force battery car owners to invest in a petrol-powered generator! That way they can charge their car using electricity generated by a fuel which has been taxed like a petrol car. No extra power stations, and no extra taxes needed!!
September 4, 2021
Shouldn’t the question be:
One way or another the government will find ways to recoup the loss when everyone is forced on to electric vehicles, whichever method allows for greater potential in terms of charging.
They tested the water with blair, who proposed a road usage charge – #10 know how to use political figures to put their ideas forward, while apparently being innocent of such wild suggestions.
I’ve got a better suggestion – Reduce government to the bone – cut out all the quangos and civil servants we do not need, as well as all the psychologists persuading us all how the government is always right. In other words, reduce national expenditure to match income received. Maggie just might have approved of that!
September 4, 2021
+10
The civil service could easily be cut by 60%. Make it work like the private sector. All that needs to happen is to remove all the box ticking exercises, subsequently there is no need for all the staff the castle builders employ to justify their self-important position.
The RPA used to have a one hour breakfast break once a month, to just sit and chat, work was not allowed to be discussed and if you didn’t want to do that, you could go off-site for a walk or do some shopping. The staff was paid for this time! I kid you not.
September 4, 2021
@J Bush – I can well believe that. TPA have mentioned several times how we the taxpayers support such activities, as well as supporting trade unions in our institutions.
September 4, 2021
They will NEVER cut wasteful Government spending. They all make far too much money from it in one way or another.
September 4, 2021
+1
September 4, 2021
‘Electricity for charging car batteries could be taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity’
As an electrical engineer there are ways to bypass that in minutes
September 4, 2021
We live in one of the most heavily taxed nations on earth. Motorists here are taxed to the maximum, paying VAT when they buy a vehicle, annual vehicle exise duty to keep it on the road and hydrocarbon fuel tax when they buy fuel. Plus additional fuel VAT and parking charges on top. Motorist taxes raised ~ÂŁ57 billion in 2018 and as Sir John says, everyone knows that nothing like this is spent on the road network. So it would be good to take the opportunity to introduce a fairer system.
Charging per mile driven seems to be the fairest way to tax EV motorists. The charging points could record mileage from the vehicle’s electronic system and include the tax on a sliding payment scale. The only issue is how much the Exchequer would wish to cream off the top. Whatever system they want, it should not consitute a disincentive to buy, or use, an EV.
During the summer the SMMT produced figures that showed that new vehicle registrations were down, but sales of second hand vehices were up – markedly. Looking more closely at the figures, I noticed that sales of second-hand EVs were insignificant. Is this because those early EV adopters absolutely love their vehices, which hold their value, are mechanically simple, low maintenance and very cheap to run? So they keep them!
How to replace the lost motoring tax under the charge per mile system is another issue. Can we not use some of the EU payments that we will now not have to make? How about scrapping a QUANGO or even better, several? Or sacking 75% of the useless civil servants in the MoD and let the military buy their kit off the shelf on the open market?
September 4, 2021
They never try to make better use of the money they already extract from us , it is always easier for them to give the money tree a bit of a shaking. The Government are wasting truly staggering amounts of money. Their egos are more important than calling a halt to the HS2 money back hole. They are already costing us a fortune in costs on their Climate Change zealotry, and intending to blow trillions on it. They saddle us with obligations that are costing us billions, ÂŁ2.5 billion on Afghans, another ÂŁ1.4 billion on the hotel accommodation for asylum seekers. Then there is the insidious costs of all their other virtue signalling, like the diversity and such garbage. Sir John is it such a good tax payer investment for the NHS to be ‘ educating’ NHS staff to their Whiteness? It all costs you know.
September 4, 2021
The only incentive to buying an EV is that they are cheaper to run. Tax them so they are the same price as an ICE powered car and who would pay the extra to buy one?
I think if you buy a Tesla you get free charging. Nothing for the government to tax.
September 4, 2021
Sakara, You claim that battery electric vehicles are “mechanically simple”, compared with ICE vehicles. That is a clever illusion fostered by the global warming (CAGW) zealots. BEVS are slightly mechanically simpler, but electrically and electronically much more complex. Actually a large part of both battery and ICE cars are the same, or similar (body structure, doors, seating, safety systems, brakes, steering, suspension, etc, etc). That’s especially so with most battery cars being based on ICE floorpans – eg the Nissan Leaf and Renault Clio. The traction battery and motor, and their control systems add complexity in substitution for the removal of the ICE and its gearbox.
September 4, 2021
Electric cars are old tech and hardly anyone wants them. We need a campaign to arrest the destruction of our existing car industry, especially engine making expertise and the very large number of jobs affected overall. Otherwise I believe people will largely forgo private car ownership rather than buy electric cars, and rely on innovative short term hire arrangements if the electricity revolution (massive increase in pricing) continues. This will further exacerbate the revenue shortfall to the Treasury. The governmentâs current policies are deeply anti-Conservative as you well know Mr Redwood. Your party is dying.
September 4, 2021
MPC, +1, accurate and succinct comment
September 4, 2021
Fully Agree – however we need more than just SirJ to fight the good fight
September 5, 2021
MPC
Your party is dying?
No its not it died years ago.
September 4, 2021
Getting close to crunch time now. It seems that the Government can resist the wishes of their globalist masters no longer and are set to introduce their sinister ‘vaccine passports’ for nightclubs and ‘other large venues’, such as sporting events. They may hold off from pubs and restaurants ‘for now’ out of deference to protesting members of their party. Meanwhile the JVCI have recommended not ‘vaccinating’ 12-15 year olds but a minister is set to overrule this. After all, you can’t ban 12-15-y-o’s from sporting events but allowing them in unvaxxed would expose the whole business as the unscientific nonsense it is. As Rolf Harris used to say, ‘Can you see what it is yet?’, JR.
September 4, 2021
Good planning there, try and bribe people to buy battery cars but not know how to fill fiscal hole this will cause. Or to be cynical they do know they just don’t want to reveal their totalitarian hand yet, which is road pricing, so the state will generally know where you are at all times, a sort of automobile ankle tag. Take this with the Treasuries desire to remove cash from society and end up with a society little different from the one they have created in China. They will have control over your movements and control over your spending, and with the press of a key they can make you a non person.
I am pretty disgusted at the silence from Conservative MPs who have failed to make the libertarian argument for keeping cash in society, but then it is not really a Conservative party anymore, certainly not the Conservative party I supported under Mrs Thatcher. With an automobile ankle tag, cashless society social credit system, hate laws, big tech deciding what views are permitted ( they even cancelled one of the US mothers whose son was killed in the bomb attack on Afghanistan airport) , we find we are being hurriedly driven into Orwell’s nightmare predictions.
September 4, 2021
Iain – Road pricing – – Wonder why millions were spent putting GPS sattelites up there to be “helpful” – – and now all new cars here have the “also helpful because we care” system in them that calls 999 in the event of a crash??? – – The 2 systems link together to have a total tracking system. Turn it off in the car ?
– YOU CAN’T. . . . IT WON’T GO.
September 4, 2021
I have serious concerns about the direction of travelâŠwe seem to be heading towards a totalitarian state
September 4, 2021
@Iain Moore. A pithy and penetrating analysis, Iain. You have encapsulated the threats to our freedoms beautifully.
September 4, 2021
Perhaps if we spent less on public services, we wouldnât need to tax everything, and be so worried about a collapse in tax revenue from the forced retirement of perfectly serviceable petrol and diesel vehicles.
My view at the moment is that the government and HMRC in particular should start looking to the big international companies to pay a reasonable proportion of the profits make in this country as tax, like my company has to, then go after smaller companies and SMEs. I suspect that wonât happen as bigger companies have better lawyers than HMRC. Sort out the mess of IR35 which is impacting livelihood and ensuring that itâs cheaper to outsource work overseas, where no income tax will be paid to workers, and then start to worry about future tax revenue when it actually seems likely to happen.
As for the question of should we tax electric vehicles, no. We should not. Start preparing for a lower tax revenue and plan public services accordingly. This cash cow is tired of getting milked.
September 4, 2021
The argument isn’t about how to pay for road maintenance, as most of them are paid for by councils out of council tax anyway, but how to make up for the lost revenue of fuel tax.
This can be readily solved by increasing income tax, on the grounds that people no longer having to spend on fuel duty have more money left over (except they won’t because the EVs are much more expensive).
What’s really needed is for government to cut spending, but there’s no incentive to do that, given that politicians have all been elected on manifestos promising to do more. Ever seen an election leaflet where the candidate says they want to reduce spending and how they will do it?
September 4, 2021
Dave Andrews
âThis [loss of fuel tax revenue] can be readily solved by increasing income tax, on the grounds that people no longer having to spend on fuel duty have more money left over (except they wonât because the EVs are much more expensive).â
So all those people who donât pay income tax in the UK also avoid paying fuel duty?
September 4, 2021
So people like me, who use their car a fair bit but pay no income tax, pay nothing to use the roads. Doesnât seem fair to me.
September 4, 2021
Road pricing- yet another way of tracking and controlling the population, what a surpise it should be being pushed so hard by such good hearted and well intentioned people as Blair The War (pursuer Ed)
September 4, 2021
Spot On (big brother is watching)
September 4, 2021
I donât think it will work to differentiate between electricity used for car charging versus other uses, charging times are likely to come down.
Road pricing is probably the only way, and is now technically feasible, though does mean big brother knows where youâve been. Or of course we could cut public expenditure to fit the loss of vehicle and fuel taxes.
We can probably leave this to Starmer, who is this week much more likely to win the next election despite his uselessness, now the Tories are going to put up taxes having said they wouldnât. As we know and as leading Conservatives such as Jacob R-M frequently remind us (or did until this week), politicians who say one thing and do another tend to lose elections.
September 4, 2021
In your reply to Mark B, you said “Governments never cut overall spending.”
Well, isn’t it about time that changed ?
The problem related to the taxation of cars is one that has been established for decades and disguises the real cost of providing other government services. All taxation should be related to the actual cost of providing the service they are designed to pay for.
We have a one-off opportunity to reset motoring taxes in line with the costs actually incurred. The shortfall should then be made up by charging more tax on other services which are undercharged. Taxpayers would then know the true cost of the dubious benefits they get from our outlandish rate of public spending.
As for taxing electric cars, they should be charged at the same rate for using the roads as IC engined cars. There is an argument that, being at least 25% heavier, they should pay more for the extra damage they do to the roads. Fuel taxes should be levied on electric charging to cover the rapidly increasing costs of power generation but strictly in line with the actual costs incurred.
It won’t happen, of course. Thanks to the idiotic green crap agenda, this government will increase road tax and fuel duty on IC-engined cars in a futile attempt to male up the shortfall and to persuade drivers to switch to overpriced and inconvenient electric vehicles at a rate they do not feel comfortable with. That will hit the retired and low paid workers in rural areas most. So much for levelling up !
September 4, 2021
Tax and spend, just like Labour.
Boris needs to remember what Mrs T said – pennies don’t fall from heaven, they have to be earned here on Earth..
September 4, 2021
The best thing wou
Should anything be taxed? The answer is that the Government has to get its money from somewhere, and if it is not electric cars, then it will be the number of windows, or fireplaces you house has. The one thing you can be sure that the Government will not do, is to reduce the amount of our money it spends, and mostly wastes.
The problem that electric cars pose, is that unlike petrol ones, they can, in theory be plugged in to charge anywhere, rather than being dependent on a garage which presents a convenient point for tax to be levied. Taxing the electricity for a home charge would mean changing the infrastructure so that electricity used on a car charge could be differentiated from normal domestic usage, but is that likely to be more or less expensive than setting up the infrastructure for Road Pricing?
Petrol duty does mean that people are largely taxed on car usage at the moment, so I find it dificult to see why Road Pricing is such anathema as a way of taxing. My objection to it is that it would enable the State to see wherever I had been, that is, if it cannot tell from my mobile telephone already.
Incidentally I thought that the Poll Tax was an excellent way to charge for local authority services; much better than the Property Tax that has replaced it. It meant that every user of those services had a stake in the service provided; it was though very badly promoted and as so often Mrs Thatcher was let down by the Wets. John Major lacked the sense to see that the initial resistance was waning when he removed it just to make an impact, and by doing so he was removing yesterdays problem.
September 4, 2021
The taxes for purchasing and using an electric car shouldnât be any different from a petrol car
Stop all the subsidies for electric cars, allow market forces and customer demand to realise to true nature of the green revolution
Lets call for a vehicle tax âlevel playing fieldâ like a true Tory would
September 4, 2021
Should the rich (or perhaps the left?) be allowed to volunteer an additional extra tax as a means of providing a select few a way of avoiding quarantine and vaccination? i.e. should they be allowed to buy their way out of all of the coercive laws designed to medicate and control the rest of us?
Think G7 conference, COP26, World Cup football, Formula 1, Instagram models… the list goes on.
September 4, 2021
We are supposed to have an adversarial, two-party system in our “democracy” with the two Establishment Parties protected by the first past the post voting system to make it virtually impossible for an unauthorised party to win seats, let alone power.
In this article, Mr Redwood states several times that the supposedly adversarial parties are operating a consensus on policies relating to electric vehicle and the purpose of driver taxation.
In what way is this NOT a governing cartel with the usual result ….. the customer (ie taxpayer/driver) gets shafted.
“Hard core cartels (when firms agree not to compete with one another) are the most serious violations of competition law. They injure customers by raising prices and restricting supply, thus making goods and services completely unavailable to some purchasers and unnecessarily expensive for others. … price fixing.”
There is no justification for taxing electric vehicles any differently from other vehicles since they are using the same facility. There is also no justification for not taxing bicycles and electric mobility scooters.
But since we have a governing cartel, there is no mechanism for the taxpayer/electorate to support such a policy.
The intention – as Blair indicated a few days ago – is to move to road pricing, starting with the motorways which already have SMART technology in place.
Reply Elections are a free market. No-one has set up a party to challenge the idea of taxing the motorist more than the cost of the roads, but they could do if it mattered to enough people.
September 4, 2021
And in response to your reply:
I point you to my observation that the FPTP electoral system ensures that the Establishment Parties effectively cannot lose (apart from Scotland, where Blair’s devolution settlement weaponised the SNP) so they are able to implement their Governing Cartel across a whole range of policies whilst claiming to Oppose, not least over Covid.
September 4, 2021
Why is it when there is a conversation to be had about policies that arenât popular, Blairâs name invariably pops up? Is he the unofficial leader now?
September 4, 2021
My main concern with pay per road use schemes is the government knowing where Iâve been at any given moment. If we could solve that issue, I would think pay per mile was a reasonable option.
However, Iâm not enamoured of some of the consequences of that. It would load more relative cost on to people who are dependent on their cars rather than other forms of transport. One could address that perhaps by decreasing the overall subsidy from road use to the rest of the government so car-dependent tax payers donât feel an increase in taxes overall, but the you have to make up the lost tax somehow. That lost tax needs to come primarily from city dwellers if we are to avoid dumping the costs on car-dependent tax payers by other means.
Perhaps a charge on cars that is applied when air pollution is too high? That would focus on cities, and would make some use of the weird focus on this issue.
In principle I think more infrastructure should be built on a toll basis. It generates income and so can be funded by the private sector or can pay back government debt and focuses costs on users. There needs to be plenty of free at the point of use infrastructure too – the m6 toll is a good model. Thereâs the M6 and the M6 toll for those prepared to pay the extra cost.
While weâre on tax, what is the government doing putting up NIfor social care? This is a golden opportunity to introduce a social insurance scheme and get the public used to that notion. The government is chucking it down the bin.
Iâve been a big supporter of this governmentâŠbut, and it will seem quite a leap, I think boris should go. I donât think he knows what he wants to do (certainly not address migration, legal or illegal, or the HRA or the equalities act and seems to have no ideas on levelling up, the really key issue for which there appears to be no policies) and his only idea is spending more money (like Blair) rather than making the system work better. Thank him profusely for brexit and the majority and then get someone in with some ideas.
Reply The authorities can track many of your journeys now if they need to – just think how many cameras see you when you travel by car. If you take a mobile phone with you that knows where you’ve been however you travel. Public transport has plenty of surveillance.
September 4, 2021
@replay – isn’t that the corrupting big brother control of the worst type of dictatorship? There is a massive and BIG difference to using technology to trap those taking part in evading the system, and just monitoring a whole population to control it, just because you can. Checking licence plate details for cars that aren’t registered for Road Licence or insurance is one thing, track and trace on a whole population is sinister. It is not the actions of a Government that is serving it people, its the action of a Government that is in fear of the people.
September 5, 2021
I agree.
Once that technology were in place, and if an authoritarian or totalitarian government were to install itself, then any form of resistance would be extremely difficult.
September 5, 2021
We could have a special charge when we get a weather inversion, and still air. It should apply especially to EVs as there will be more expensive electricity. Or for Guy Fawkes night and Diwali and New Year. The reality is that traffic contributes very little to pollution these days: all those particulate filters, cat converters and Adblue systems and better engines producing less NOx are having an effect. Higher pollution is now associated with particular weather (especially when it has blown in from the Continent first), and with events like fireworks.
September 4, 2021
I just bet someone at Whitehall has been playing with supply & demand equations
Fuel suppliers will have to dramatically increase prices due to lack of consumer demand but the tax revenue collected on those remaining sales will remains the same
This government doesnât lose any revenue
September 4, 2021
The state of emergency is clearly here to stay and it will eventually be necessary for everyone to carry a tracker so that The Regime knows where you are.
If the Governmentâs green agenda goes ahead most people wonât be able to afford electric cars anyway, so the tax loss will be considerable.
The obvious solution would be to tax people for movement using data from their personal trackers. Whether on foot, bicycle, public transport or multiple occupancy of a private car, the Government will not lose tax. You could even tax people for movement within their own homes.
Welcome to the brave new world!
September 4, 2021
” ….. clearly I am not advocating any new taxes ….”
Every tax has a bureaucracy-cost, for the payer as well as for the recipient. Whatever money NEEDS to be raised, should be raised with fewer taxes than we currently have.
September 4, 2021
Fuel tax operated on two principles- the greater the mileage travelled the the greater the duty paid, and the greater the size of engine the greater the fuel used and hence duty paid, With electric cars a road mileage tax would meet the first of the fuel duty principle, To replace the second principle the Kw of the electric motor could be used and added to the mileage duty.
September 4, 2021
“That way people using cars to get children to school or themselves to nearby work would not be taxed.”
Errr… no. The school run is a major contributor to congestion and emissions. It is unnecessary – why can’t these kids go to school on a school busas we did when we were young?
If anything I’d take attendance on the school bus and treat it as absence/truancy if a child isn’t on the bus. Those within walking distance could have dispensation, but if they were found to be going in a car there would be penalties.
If drivers are currently being charged more than the cost of maintaining the roads then government should reduce their expenditure. It’s not ok to tax those who happen to need vehicles in order to fund something else – it destroys any sense of a government being accountable to its people. The same is true of NI – it was supposedly a levy, so let’s see that being thye expenditure on the NHS, an amount invested to cover the State pension (possibly funded by investment in belt & road type schemes abroad as “foreign aid with a return”) and as insurance against the need for out of work benefits.
Then we all know where we stand and we’re not paying for the non-contributors.
P.S. end the nonsense whereby benefits pay NI, thereby giving recipients of benefits entitlement to future benefits and to the State pension (which should not be paid from a “benefits” pot, since it is a contractual obligation).
In future, if there is a road tax, the old system of an annual fee would work, but electric vehicles cannot continue to be exempt since they will at some point become the standard if government policy continues.
September 4, 2021
“Why can’t children go to school on school buses?”
Because in a great many places there are no school buses, and where there are some, they can be extremely unreliable.
And because in a great many metropolitan areas, sending an unaccompanied primary school-aged child by public transport would be asking for trouble in a variety of ways.
September 4, 2021
I ask myself why all levels of government service are so abysmal. Like private enterprise they are supposed to be answering a need at a level that is acceptable to the customer, such that if it is really good it will metaphorically fly off the shelves. Possibly a better understanding of the market, or customer/people expectations would be a good starting point.
In private enterprise, if the provider gets it right he make a profit. Those that get it exceedingly right can accrue serious wealth, a very good financial adviser and HMRC permitting. Within goverment provision there is very little incentive unless a “K” at careers end is your aim. As that can involve keeping your nose clean and pleasing others I would not recommend it to the seriously entrepreneurial. Government service is not peppered with sufficient Hugh Dowdings or Frank Whittles, and when they pop up they get little thanks for their foresight and enterprise. The mediocre who surround them always minimise their achievements.
At the shop floor level of government activity we desperately need a scheme of continuous improvement, “Kaizen” in japan. This must be coupled with financial reward and promotion for those of outstanding leadership qualities.
I would also break the polarisation of a government career or a private career. We need continuous crossflow at all levels to ensure that the best peolle and best practice thrive in government and industry. The investment banker who set up the vaccination programme is a perfect example of the weakness of a government system of doing things and what can be achieved with crossflow.
One thing is absolutely clear to me is that we cannot continue with the Fred Carno of career politics and government service in a vacumn.
September 4, 2021
@agricola – are, but, even Fred Karno would find the performance lacking
September 4, 2021
agricola : “I would also break the polarisation of a government career or a private career. We need continuous crossflow at all levels to ensure that the best peolle and best practice thrive in government and industry.”
Such as the continuous back and forth of tax experts between the Treasury/BoE and the big accountancy firms enabling tax legislation to be always written so that the accountancy firms always have tax loopholes ready for their favourite clients?
September 4, 2021
This is just the kind of initiative I wish candidates would put forward when elections come round. All I see is promises of more cost and spending.
September 4, 2021
Just like MPs most comments avoid the original question.
On television recently a chap travelled from Grimsby to John o’Groats and back by electric car and the charging costs en route were more than it would have cost in diesel (it would appear the electricity carries a VAT rate of 20%).
The only way to go seems to be a mixture of Road Fund Licence plus a mileage charge but the future cost of motoring will prove extremely expensive and in many cases prohibitive. Other than that if the government wants to go on spending then taxes will have to rise elsewhere and whoever is in power will be signing their own death warrant. People love their cars. It’s not too late to change.
PS A check on when and where you have driven will be manna from heaven for anybody who wishes to check on anybody else. Secret liaisons will have to be carried out on a pushbike or public transport.
Reply Public transport also logs your journey as with railcards and some ticket systems
September 4, 2021
Right to reply
Public transport can indeed monitor the use of a travel card via it entry/exit ticket barriers â it canât monitor you during your journey
Whatâs worrying is the embedded GPS monitoring in EV cars that in âreal-timeâ can monitor your whole journey
September 4, 2021
If road pricing is to come into operation how would the gov do it. Spend loads of money on imported equipment and staff as usual or have it done at the MOT station at no cost to the revenue collected. Would say the first one.
September 4, 2021
To answer your question, Govt must cut its spending.
September 4, 2021
The state has been pushing for road charging for decades. EV use makes it inevitable, or so they will tell us.
The highways are then suitable for flogging off to the “private sector”, i.e. their mates. Say goodbye to any freedom you thought you had from that point on.
September 4, 2021
“Secret liaisons will have to be carried out on a pushbike or public transport.”
Or in Westminster!
September 5, 2021
And get the newspaper headlines…
September 4, 2021
A question on the pension debate.
Are the people to believe the talk in the media about pensioners not getting the full increase in their pension while holiday home owner are still be getting their taxes breaks of over 8 billion pounds a year.Can anybody see anything wrong with that.
September 4, 2021
Sir John, you put your name to this study:
https://fairfueluk.com/APPG-FFUK/55/
It is conclusive. Just say no to net zero.
But you will get nowhere if you allow CO2 to be called pollution. It is not. It is plant food.
September 4, 2021
I don’t think government should be looking to replace taxation lost through adoption of electric vehicles. They should cut expenditure.
However in the sprit of the question, which assumes that government will not do this, the replacement tax should come from those companies which offshore their profits. This could be in the form of a sales tax or a tax levied on foreign IP, marketing or administration used in this country. They could call it Employers International Insurance and levy it as 13.8% + 12% of the cost of the IP, Administration or marketing costs sourced in another country and removed from taxable profits. In the spirit of equality we could even charge an apprenticeship levy on these amount. It would then be cheaper to pay corporation tax on those profits in this country.
September 4, 2021
Introduce a capital withholding tax. Any money that’s transferred from a UK business to its parent company or a subsidiary is treated as a capital payment and subject to corporation and dividend taxes.
This would upset the Tories’ friends, so it won’t happen.
September 6, 2021
That wouldn’t do anything about “internal transfer pricing”, eg for internal services, which is the way the cash is leeched to parent companies.
September 4, 2021
This is the usual pickle Governments create by giving taxpayer money to a sector already able afford the items by taking from the taxpayer sector that can’t afford to get on the ladder in the first place.
The Electric cars get ‘taxpayer’ subsidies first in its purchase, then in its annual road licence, the taxpayer also gets to fund directly the charging points. All luxuries the majority of taxpayers can’t even of dreaming they could participate in.
How about getting back to the road fund licence standard that a vehicle is taxed on size and weight to be compatible with the general wear and tear. The Government has already set up how the tax will be paid on energy consumption – its called a smart meter. That was one of the major constructs of the home snooping it allowed the monitoring of specific items.
September 5, 2021
nota#
Taxed on size and weight
Will not hapen, too much weight is in the battery on EV. The smaller the batteries the less range available between recharging cycles.
September 4, 2021
I was wondering john if you have given any thought to the big rise coming in disablement budget.
September 4, 2021
The UK tax system has been corrupted beyond purpose. How can a Country keep demanding the taxpayer subsidising that that and the other. Every handout is met with another exception on top of a concession, so on and so on.
The taxpayer, as in those that get to ‘just’ pay, is paying well over the odds for very little in return. Which means tax in the UK is exponentially disproportionate and high for those that are not afforded the wealth and avoidance schemes of just a few get to enjoy.
The UK taxpayer is paying far to much for the ‘State’. All promises to reform at election time are ignored when in office. If the State was treated as a UK Business and all those engaged with it were treated and expected to perform and take on responsibility in the same way as those employed in the private sector are we might just get and affordable system that is fair and equal to everyone – especially the taxpayer. Will it happen – NO. The vested interest, the corrupters of society hold the reigns
September 4, 2021
A problem with a reduced tax take as EVs replace ICEs?
I really donât think the government will have any problems in thinking up ways to tax the buying, owning, parking, storing, repairing, insuring, fuelling, road usage and end-of-life scrappage of EVs to produce the total amount of tax take required.
Governments are very good at this.
September 4, 2021
You make it sound as though they’re working for themselves and not the people !
September 4, 2021
Off topic, I am cautious about this public position being taken by Lord Frost:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/04/lord-frost-irish-sea-row-risks-damaging-uk-eu-relations-long-term
“Minister says government will not âsweep awayâ NI Brexit protocol, but renews demands for major changes”
Because it seems to me, once again, if that you are not prepared to walk away you will never get a good deal.
And let us remember who first soured our relations with the EU and the Irish Republic:
From November 26 2017:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ireland-border-brexit-latest-theresa-may-customs-union-phil-hogan-northern-a8076271.html
âBrexit: Remain in customs union and single market to solve border issue, Irelandâs European commissioner tells Mayâ
âMr Hogan, the EUâs agriculture commissioner, said Ireland would âplay tough to the endâ over the border issue, and said it was a âvery simple factâ that âif the UK or Northern Ireland remained in the EU customs union, or better still the single market, there would be no border issueâ.â
I suggest that we should also be prepared to “play tough to the end” over the border and the protocol.
September 4, 2021
Oh dear, this again:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/northern-ireland-brussels-brexit-european-belfast-b953730.html
âIt is obvious there will always need to be a dedicated UK-EU treaty relationship covering Northern Ireland.”
We had it before on July 8:
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2021/07/13/the-northern-ireland-protocol/#comment-1243959
“In other words, no matter how absurd and extreme and intransigent the EU position over Northern Ireland may become the UK will never just walk away and take its own unilateral measures rather than pleading for the EU to consent to a special deal, a âtailored treaty relationshipâ. When are our politicians going to learn that you cannot hope to succeed in negotiations if you start off by saying that you must have a deal?”
September 4, 2021
The US also says that the parties must have a deal.
September 5, 2021
Denis, Excellent work. And indeed “When are our politicians going to learn that you cannot hope to succeed in negotiations if you start off by saying that you must have a deal?” They appear incapable of doing so. Or they want to dump Northern Ireland. Or they are simply in the habit of appeasement. We are going to get repeated “ultimatums” in the media in an attempt to pretend that the government is actually doing something.
September 4, 2021
My reply to Glen Cullen giving reasons for not having a smart meter installed including the fact that your supply can be remotely disconnected doesnât seem to have survived moderation, youâre so fickle that it completely removes the legitimacy of your diary and reveals it as a hollow talking shop, you make all the right noises but when push comes to shove you stand behind our dictator
September 4, 2021
I calculate that a tax of about 25p/kWh would be required to make good the loss of fuel duty and VAT. Since fuel tax is per unit of consumption, it would mean that owners of high performance electricity guzzlers would quite rightly pay more in tax. It also means that there would be no requirement for tracking vehicles and charging for road use. Requiring EVs to have a cumulative kWh meter as well as their odometer would get around the difficulties of slow charging from a 13 amp plug.
However, this is only a small part of the tax subsidies enjoyed by EVs. The biggest is the minimal BIK tax levels imposed on company cars, currently as little as 1%, representing tax savings of thousands of pounds a year to higher rate tax payers with company cars. The subsidy on purchase has been scaled back, but still represents a subsidy of up to ÂŁ3,500. Further subsidies come via zero VED rates. Of course, we all have to pay via our electricity bills for the cost of all the extra cabling and transformers and generators that rising EV use will entail, and many of us have been subsidising free electricity and charging stations installed by “climate emergency” councils. It’s all much more expensive than even the extraordinarily generous solar FITs that used to apply. Why rich green virtue signallers think they are entitled to such subsidies must be a puzzle indeed for ordinary folk.
September 5, 2021
I charge my EV almost exclusively from my PV panels for which I don’t receive anything like the “extraordinarily generous solar FIT” you refer to. Why should I pay tax on the energy I generate that the utility makes a generous profit on any surplus I provide?
The work around will be to have a DC side storage system then charge the EV and run house services from that – which only the rich will be able to afford.
September 5, 2021
The idea is that your use of energy and roads is taxed on a similar basis to everyone else. With my proposal, it would be the energy metered by the car itself that would be taxed, so there would be no exemption for your solar panels. In any case, your midday summer surpluses are typically more of a problem for the grid, which is why your evidently more recent installation earns little from them, and why few new solar installations make economic sense. You should be charging up your car and running your washing machine etc. rather than exporting surplus electricity if you hope to make it pay.
September 6, 2021
During the summer I do charge the EV, heat domestic water, charge and run appliances and also run production equipment to build up stock of live and stored PV generated energy. Very little is exported to the grid.
Secondly, your scheme fails if the EV is used outside the UK .
Thirdly, it fails again if the vehicle is used as part of a V2G scheme as the government is proposing.
If you want to charge per use and have it apply fairly to all vehicles then you will need to adopt something like GPS based tracking and logging, no reason why it couldn’t also be used for cyclists so they can pay their fair share as well.
September 7, 2021
should read from live and stored PV generated energy.
September 4, 2021
Road pricing is the way to go. Pay for the travel you do.
September 4, 2021
Why ? I don’t pay to walk, or go for a jog, or walk a dog, or ride a bicycle….we have to start asking our government ‘why’ we’re being taxed on this or any other item
September 4, 2021
I already pay for the travel I do. If I travel a lot I buy a lot of petrol. If I donât travel much, I donât use much petrol. The more I travel, the more I pay. Road pricing in action.
September 4, 2021
Yes, 100%. If road tax is supposed to pay for road maintenance then electric cars, being heavy, should pay more. At the moment the rich who can afford an electric car are evading a tax that is falling more heavily in the poor who canât.
September 4, 2021
government spending is at 50% of GDP, taxes will follow for sure.
September 4, 2021
Instead of all the fannying around deciding who pays what why doesn’t everyone, regardless of what car they drive just pay the same? Electric cars weigh more than the basic ICE and eventually all cars will be electric so why not stop charging different rates for different cars and just have a basic amount of road tax for all users?
September 5, 2021
F U S
Sounds like a plan
September 4, 2021
Road pricing already exists. The more miles traveled the more fuel consumed, the more tax paid. Even for battery cars it works the same, that was part of the reasoning behind the intrusive side of smart meters.
The only fudge is Government they want some taxpayers to subsidies those that can afford things that the cant – the endless imbalance and as a consequence ultra high tax burden.
So in away this becomes a non subject.
September 4, 2021
Sir John – todays post could just as easily been merged with an earlier one on Quango’s. This Government and its predecessors have been so pre-occupied with creating jobs for the boys. Anything they can do to keep mates on the gravy train at the taxpayers expense they do. Every day the hit the taxpayer is taking keeps growing and the accountable side of the State (because they are mates) keeps growing.
Every dream and asperation that actually needs funding can be catered for by removing the endless mountain of dead weight. Not one single Government has kept to election promises of a small state. It would appear it is just about keeping chums enjoying a lifestyle at the expense of the productive ‘surfs’
September 4, 2021
Boys and Girls- the germaloides are winning, listen to yourselves snapping and snarling at each other, divided means defeated
September 5, 2021
Yes, the referendum was a brilliant idea to that end.
September 4, 2021
“They fear the government would extort too much…” Sadly that is in their nature and too much is simply squandered. They will not willingly change.
September 5, 2021
If you want a fair and acceptable system then shouldn’t your question be “Should travel be taxed”. EVs have simply forced the question by breaking the invidious tax method, but then I think bikes have become the key issue with all the special highway provisions being made for them at no charge and the expense of all other road users.
Differential charging /taxing of electricity won’t work. Meters, EV’s and chargers don’t support such capability today so why should the user pay for expensive upgrades. Besides, you’d also have to also distinguish between electricity sourcing – I charge my EV predominantly (around 95%) from energy I have generated from solar panels – which do not receive the extraordinarily generous solar FIT Mike mentions above. Smart meters could’t even cope with power going back to the grid so you haven’t a hope of them dealing with different sourcing and usage.
Why make a road use tax so complicated, work and school commuters should pay the same as everyone else or are you only going to charge the self-employed and shoppers? And while you are are changing the system you must include the cyclist to cover their unfair and expensive highway provisions.
I think the system should be changed to be fair to all road users, perhaps a common subscription and vignette which all users must pay, including cyclists.
September 5, 2021
Phasing out IC’s by such and such a year is a total nonsense. Or rather, claiming the use of fossil fuels is damaging the planet is a nonsense.
Oil is becoming more scarce therefor more expensive. So let the market forces do their job.
By all means encourage British enterprise to produce EV’s BUT NOT BY THREATS THAT THEY CAN NOT CONTINUE PRODUCING I.C.’s.
Even if we manage to maintain power in the national electricity grid there is no way we can all drive EC’s. They can not be kept charged.
Toll roads must surely cause traffic jams.
Rather than constantly worry about how to raise increasing taxes CUT DOWN ALL THE BUREAUCRACY THAT COSTS THE MONEY.
September 5, 2021
The principle that should be retained and strengthened is ‘the polluter pays’. Not only should high fuel tax be retained but it should be extended to buses and to non-electrified railways. A small car carrying two people generates LESS pollution per million person miles than the average train, because so many trains travel half empty. At the risk of boring you all, ‘the polluter pays’ should also be extended to China, who use raw coal extensively at power stations and still use CFCs, and other polluting nations. It will need a change in WTO rules and the UK, the host nation, should place it firmly in the COP26 agenda.