Mr Miliband speaks for the EU, not Britain

Yesterday I asked Mr Miliband if we could have some democracy in Europe, to mirror the democracy he says he wishes to support or introduce elsewhere in the world. I was wasting my breath. He is a keen supporter of the European project, which proceeds on its meddling centralising way despite the views of European people.

I pointed out that Ireland is given two referenda, because they did like the result of the first one, whilst the UK is not allowed one at all, despite the government’s promise. Lisbon is being forced upon reluctant peoples, with political elites refusing votes, ignoring votes, or changing the words to conceal the truth of the project.

I also said Parliament should send a message to the countries that have shown reluctance to ratify the Treaty, that the UK public is against it. Come a General Election and a widely forecast change of government, the UK will veto the Treaty for them. They should all hang on refusing to ratify so the British people can once again save Europe from its political classes.

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57 Comments

  1. Robert
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    We will see I think it’s 100% now we will have a Tory government lets see if we get the vote we need.

  2. Ian Jones
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Are these comments official Conservative policy or is Dave not bothered by his MP’s wandering off into the dangers of discussing the EU.

    I am starting to remember the bad things about Major’s Government now.

    • jean baker
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      Conservatives retain the right to think and speak for themselves, aka ‘democracy’ – the very issue John drew to Miliband’s attention – recent poll results reflect ‘democratic’ thinking and wishes.

    • Stewart Knight
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      We have Labour in open revolt, literally, over every issue and near bankrupt, plus virtually unable to govern, and you are worrying over the worst things of the Major Government with minor spats over the EU and whether the British people should be allowed a democratic say from a probable incoming Tory Government?

      If that is the worst of it compared to what we have, then whoopee.

      Reply: Try reading my many posts and speeches about the economy.

  3. Stuart Fairney
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    I could not help but chuckle when I heard Mr Brown encouraging the Iranian government to accept the will of the people. One could almost hear the Mullahs saying “After you Mr Prime Minister”

  4. Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    Well said!
    Labour loves to be personal and to attack the man not the ball, so let me say that I feel so sorry for Mr Miliband who will, of course, lose his power in a few months’ time. After that he will be in the wilderness like poor Mr and Mrs Kinnock.
    I am reading, at the moment, Marta Andreasen the ex chief accountant for the EU project. When I had finished the first chapter, which is written in a completely unemotional way, I wanted to throw something! No wonder she supports UKIP so passionately!

    • jean baker
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      Miliband’s brother (reportedly) works for the EU and the former worked ‘hand in glove’ with Mandleson in recent interviews – Federal socialists look after their own.

      Marta Andreasen is, I believe, the accountant sacked by the EU for highlighting corruption – funded by taxpayers. According to reports, EU ‘accounts’ are neither audited or approved. Makes the highly questionable way in which Brown’s Fees Office operates pale into insignificance !

      • Posted June 17, 2009 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

        Please let me bang on about this lady.
        Trilingual in French, English and Spanish, she is a registered Spaniard. She is also capable in German. She is a registered accountant. She was appointed officially as the Accountant for the EU. She writes like an accountant too – completely without emotion.
        What she has to say is so shocking that you really do have to read the book to believe it.

        • alan jutson
          Posted June 18, 2009 at 5:03 am | Permalink

          Mike

          Why am I not surprised

        • jean baker
          Posted June 18, 2009 at 6:48 am | Permalink

          Thanks ….

      • Mark M
        Posted June 18, 2009 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

        They are audited, but they are never signed off by the auditors. Not that that bothers the EU. They carry on regardless, occasionally opening the taps for more taxpayer cash from the ever so obidient governments we have across Europe.

        • jean baker
          Posted June 19, 2009 at 6:50 am | Permalink

          The Irish took a stand and said NO to the Treaty – forcing a second vote speaks for itself.

        • Posted June 19, 2009 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

          No, it is much worse than that. The people who are responsible for signing off the accounts are hoodwinked into signing lies and then they are transferred in order to shut them up. The ones who refuse to go along with the corruption lose their jobs, are shouted at, have their computers confiscated (which means their contacts get known) and are blacklisted so that their careers come to a rapid end. According to Marta Andreasen, during her trial by the Commission, most of them were actually reading other documents during the time she was fighting for her job.

  5. Johnny Norfolk
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    I just cannot understand why more people are not concerned about all this.
    It was an outrage we were not given a referendum, but neither are the Tories.
    They have not promised a referendum come what may.

    I think John you should try and sort your own party out over this as well as Labour.

    • APL
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      Johnny Norfolk: “..but neither are the Tories. ”

      The Tories resemble the Labour party in so far as it is just power for power’s sake they prize.

      There are one or two individuals in the Tory party who might be considered to be suffering from varying degrees of EUroskeptism.

      However they are useful to the Party because they knowingly or unknowingly keep the Tory EUroskeptic vote on board.

      These people work rather like Stalin’s agents in Europe, which I recall he contemptiously called ‘useful idiots’.

      • jean baker
        Posted June 17, 2009 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

        I can only assume you’re too young, or ill informed, to recall the economic mess Mrs Thatcher inherited from Labour’s last disastrous attempt at ‘government’. Debts against taxpayers continue to rise to historic levels as a results of Nulabor’s abolition of Clause 4 – sound economic regulation. ‘All hail Brussels’ has been shown to be their mantra.

        • APL
          Posted June 17, 2009 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

          jean baker: “I can only assume …”

          Quite wrong I am afraid. At least on the too young bit.

          And don’t, please don’t try to make out Cameron is made in the mold of Thatcher. I will injure myself with the hysterical laughter.

          Cameron, the heir to Thatcher? I don’t think. Heath, perhaps.

          jean baker: “‘All hail Brussels’ has been shown to be their mantra.”

          And Kenneth Clarke too! Meanwhile good men who believe they have influence in the ‘inner councils of the Party’ are on the back benches.

    • Michele
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 10:49 am | Permalink

      Yes, we need David Cameron to stand up and say publicly what he’s going to do, in clear terms.

      Look at what’s happened in Ireland today with those poor people. I predict that it’s just the start of the British people taking the law into their own hands about immigration.

      For goodness sake, let’s do something.

  6. alan jutson
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    How sad that this once influential nation, should wait for others to seal its fate, in a Club where it is one of the major contributers to its funding.
    The gravy train rolls on for MEP’s and for many of the Country’s who are dipping into the pot.

  7. Josh
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    What’s also strange is that the Labour benches don’t seem to have heard of Nato. It was Nato and not the EU that united Europe.

    Where does it stop? I’m sick of people saying we need ”ever closer co-operation” with Europe to deal with the makebelieve problem of climate change etc. Well, shall we sign China and Brazil up to the EU too, because surely we need to co-operate with them? Or shall we sign Britain up to a UKChina Union?

  8. Mick Anderson
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Line two – surely you mean “because they did not like the result of the first one”?

    Democracy is in the eye of the beholder. However, if a vote is never cast, how can that be described as democracy?

    So, our undemocratic Prime Minister is simply running true to form. It may be cause for despair – even anger – but it can’t be considered a surprise.

    Unfortunately, on the rare occasion the public are asked for their opinion, there are so many issues that specific problems are ignored. Presumably that’s why the smaller parties do so well at the “irrelevant” European elections.

  9. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    You were wasting your breath with Miliband, as you would be with Ken Clarke. These EU enthusiasts (fanatics?) support an institution that is not just undemocratic but actively anti-democratic. What is so infuriating about this is that these people, disgracefully supported by many MPs over the years, have given away much of the power, with which they were temporarily entrusted by the British people, to this organisation without the prior agreement of those people. If there is a Conservative government and you keep your promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and there is a rejection vote, what will you do when the masters in Brussels tell you to go away and try again as they have with France, The Netherlands and Ireland?

    • Mark M
      Posted June 18, 2009 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

      The most amazing thing is that when you mention that some 70+ % of people say in polls that they want a referendum (yes, even some who would vote Yes think we ought to vote on it) to the Eurofanatics they laugh you off and say things like “but we believe they would support us”. Ok, well if you actually believe that then let us have a vote. Prove yourself right.

      Why do politicians find it so hard to let people have a referendum? It’s fairly simple to gauge how people feel about it. People complain when we don’t get given a referendum, and no-one complains when we are given one. If the people want a referendum, on any issue, then they should be allowed it.

  10. Simon
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    It’s a shame that Cameron does not echo such sentiments. It makes you wonder what’s going on when the Conservative leader does not even back what is essentially a conservative idea which would be highly popular with the electorate. He seems more concerned with appeasing the EU than taking on board something which the vast majority of the British public support. That does not bode well for the future.

    • Posted June 17, 2009 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

      It does’nt bode well at all. Kenneth Clarke is making statements about not giving the British people a vote on Lisbon. We are bordering on a one party state and it’s scary.

  11. Brian E.
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    I was pleased to hear in the news today that the Conservatives were warning possible contractors for the identity card scheme that “they should not to sign any new contracts as the scheme would be cancelled by a future Conservative Government”.
    Now if only Cameron had the courage to issue a similar warning to the EU – don’t go ahead with the Lisbon Constitution as Britain will be having a referendum if they get elected.
    Then I might vote Conservative rather than UKIP.

    • jean baker
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

      Talking of the strong resistance to ID (further loss of privacy!), I was astounded to learn from an optical practice that it was made (on government orders) to instal a ‘retina scan’ – digitalized record – at a cost to the partners of around £23,000; I declined a scan, for which a charge of £10 as it was of no benefit – the optician’s scope examination sufficed.

      I find the directive somewhat ‘stealthy and sinister’ – rather like being asked to leave a record of my fingerprints at a shop counter.

      • Posted June 18, 2009 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

        I wonder if Boots is one of these optical practices. My husband and I both had it done and the optometrist discussed the results with us. However, they stated that they would not use the records for any other purposes. Considering what you just mentioned, should we trust them?

        • jean baker
          Posted June 19, 2009 at 6:43 am | Permalink

          I think not, given the way the government operates – by stealth !

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 18, 2009 at 7:18 am | Permalink

      Correct, Brian E.: Cameron should pledge that as Prime Minister he will hold a British referendum on the Lisbon Treaty irrespective of what happens in other countries, and in the meantime the other EU member states should regard the British ratification of the treaty as being no more than a provisional ratification.

  12. Robert George
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    The EU has failed. All the people ever wanted or voted for was a trade agreement. If we cannot revert to that it is time to get out.

    • jean baker
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

      Well said ….. I recently read a theory that the EU is the brainchild of a Nazi group.

      • Posted June 18, 2009 at 6:15 am | Permalink

        I don’t know where you read this. According to Christopher Booker in “The Great Deception”, the EU was the brainchild of Jean Monnet (p.67ff). Hitler, of course, wanted to unify Europe. But so did Augustus Caesar, Suleyman the Magnificent and Napoleon Bonaparte!

        • jean baker
          Posted June 18, 2009 at 11:50 am | Permalink

          Hitler’s insane megalomatic dictatorship resulted in the holocaust, not unity; the antithesis of democracy unified or otherwise.

  13. Publius
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Well said, Mr Redwood. But of course they won’t listen.

    Labour make the cynical calculation that the masses care more about sport and pets than about the principles of political liberty. In this respect they emulate despots all around the world.

  14. backofanenvelope
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    You say:

    Come a General Election and a widely forecast change of government, the UK will veto the Treaty for them.

    Good Lord! I might even vote Tory!

  15. Andrew Duffin
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    It is interesting, in this context, to note that Clarke (soon to be known, I fear, as “the traitor Clarke”, like Heath before him), has stated that nobody wants any more silly wrangling over treaties, this is something that must be settled.

    I couldn’t agree more, Mr. Clarke.

    But why is that you think the only way of settling it is for your view to be imposed by force? Can you not think of another way this matter could be “settled”, which would also lance the boil of resentment that is building up in our country?

    How about for once actually asking the people what they want?

    If the answer came back favourable for Lisbon, even I might shut up about it.

  16. Citizen Responsible
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Miliband will sell us down the river. When he’s out of a job at the next election, he will be rewarded with a job in the EU. Same goes for Mandelson. No doubt they are planning ahead for when Tony becomes the EU President.

  17. Derek W. Buxton
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    I like the article….except! Clarke has just told us what “conservative” policy is – “stay in the EU”. It would appear that for once, he is telling the truth, not that I am surprised. I have long said that Cameron is not EUrosceptic and everything he has done and said since becoming leader backs that up. Yes, we get the odd nod in that direction but accompanied by a wink in the direction of Clarke, Hurd, Brittan and the like, the federalists. The EU functionaires should not rule us in any way.

    Derek

    • Number 6
      Posted June 19, 2009 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

      Derek,

      The modern day Conservative party is, in my opinion, very much on board with the EU ‘project.’ I always suspected that the ‘tough talk’ ahead of the Euros was just talk. I left the party and joined UKIP some years back. Nothing I have seen or heard in the interim period has convinced me to rejoin.

      “In Europe but not run by Europe” anyone?

  18. Mark, Edinburgh
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Why not simply issue a commitment that a future Conservative government would refuse to ratify the Croatia accession treaty if it includes clauses relating to an Irish opt out?

    This would have the effect of putting a big question mark over any Irish Government claims of guarantees in their re-run.

    Seems NuLabour have already thought of this problem and were reported as already pushing to find another vehicle to accomodate the Irish in the recent Brussels foreign ministers meeting.

    If this possibility worries them, then all the more reason to do it!

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 18, 2009 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Every EU accession treaty should be subject to a referendum in the UK, in which event it’s very likely that the British people would refuse to allow any further enlargement – not even Croatia or Iceland, let alone Turkey – unless there were radical changes to the nature of the founding treaties.

  19. TCD
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Could you tell us who chooses Britain’s commissioner and
    whether he/she would have to serve the whole 5 year term or
    Cameron would be able to change him/her? As the commissioners
    are the only EU officials with any power, this would fix us for the
    next 5 years whatever Cameron does.
    Has the new commissioner in fact already been appointed?

    Reply:The PM chooses a Commissioner and he/she can then serfe the full term

  20. John Broughton
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    John

    It seems to me that any guarantee/opt out given to the Irish Governemnt is a de facto variation of the constitution. The consequence of which is that every country having already ratified should repeat the process.

    Can UK parliamentarians do anything to promote such a process?

    • APL
      Posted June 17, 2009 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

      John Broughton: “.. any guarantee/opt out given to the Irish Governemnt is a de facto variation of the constitution.”

      There will be no change to the treaty/constitution. The commission will attach an annex to the treaty, which will have no legal force but as it is in the text of the treaty documents and no one bothers to read. It can be said to the Irish, ” look at this text, protecting your countries independence.”

  21. Posted June 17, 2009 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Missed opportunity there Mr Redwood, the headline could have read.

    David Milliband speaks for EU.

  22. Posted June 17, 2009 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    A reasonable estimate of our ciontribution is around £50 Billion per annum, that’s £50 Billion of red tape just for the UK, God only knows what it is for Europe.
    That’s 50 Billion of Unnecesary cost to the real workers. Do these Beurocrats grow food, fish, farm, do they build things in factories, no they get us to do that then invent rules that allow them to Fleece us of our hard earned wealth.
    Not to mention of Course the £100 Billion National Quangos.

    The situation is no better than under Medieval Fuedalism.

    We didn’t need a hundred Billion Institutions to trade with the World, we didn’t need the EU 100 yrs ago to trade with Europe and the World and we don’t need it now.
    These Trade agreements are not trade agreements, they are meetings between our ruling elites on who gets to Fleece which bit of the World.

  23. Posted June 17, 2009 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Allow me to make a further comment.
    The EU has its own Commission and also its own very corrupt and clever bureaucracy run by expert tacticians who will stop at nothing to get their own way.
    The parliament, of course, is a sham.
    To my mind, the problem is Coreper which is the place where each nation haggles for its own. In there, the decisions are taken by all the nations together. Once Coreper has agreed to something, then all the nations have already agreed that they will enact it as law.
    In that sense, the EU is democratic in that each nation has its own chance to discuss things. And Coreper really does provide a meeting place for all the nations of Europe just as the Europhiles want.
    I am, myself, therefore, coming round to the view that Nick Clegg is right. We ought to have a referendum on whether to stay or leave. There really do not seem to be any other sensible alternatives.

  24. John Wrake
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    As a Christian, I hope that I give due weight to the words of Jesus as recorded in both Matthew and Luke’s Gospels, that no man can serve two masters.

    As a Christian, I give more weight to the record of the New Testament than to any statement of policy by any political leader or party.

    Perhaps it is not surprising that attempts to convince me of the truth that obedience to a foreign government is really obedience to my own government, fall on deaf ears.

    I recognise that many of my so-called representatives do not share my Christian faith and, therefore, do not share my view of what constitutes truth, but I would like to see those of them who do share my beliefs, standing a bit taller in the debate.

    I think that those who feel like me are looking for leaders with convictions that transcend party advantage and who stand by those convictions in the rough and tumble of debate. We have too many on both sides of the House of Commons trying to serve two masters

    They will fail.

    • Posted June 18, 2009 at 6:18 am | Permalink

      How do you feel, then, about Tony Blair becoming President of Europe?

      • John Wrake
        Posted June 18, 2009 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

        Mike,

        There could not be a clearer example of someone attempting to serve two masters.

        One has to question the reality of the Christian conviction of a man which allows him not to “do God” when politics makes it inconvenient.

        It would seem clear that the ethos of the European Union is not essentially Christian, though it may well employ those who claim to be Christians and include political parties with Christian titles.
        It appears that the European Union also “doesn’t do God”.

        My understanding of Christianity is that it marks those who turn from sin, put their trust in Jesus Christ as a living saviour and demonstrate the activity of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

        Whether Mr. Blair puts God or the European Union first in his life is a matter for him and not for me to judge. When Jesus was shown a penny, he stated that we have duties to God and duties to our rulers, but these duties are concurrent.

        As for me, I feel that keeping the oath to the Queen which I swore by Almighty God when I Joined the army precludes me from supporting an organisation which is contrary to my oath, since it has robbed me of my birthright and robbed the Queen of Her sovereignty.

        Mr. Blair is responsible for his oath to the Queen.

  25. Sally C.
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    You must know perfectly well that we, the British, are highly unlikely ever to have a vote on the Lisbon treaty. The plan is that the Irish will give the right vote (ie. Yes) on their resit of the vote later this year and by the time of the next General Election next year, we will be faced with a fait accompli. If more people knew that this was ‘The Plan’ maybe more of us would bother to demonstrate outside Downing Street to force Gordon out and demand a General Election now!

  26. Simon
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Just heard Milliband on Channel 4 News saying he thinks it is tantamount that the wishes of the Iranian people are respected. Shame he doesn’t extend the same consideration to us when it comes to an EU Referendum.

  27. Magelec
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    I don’t believe David Cameron will commission a vote on the Lisbon Treaty if the Tories win power; whether the Treaty is ratified or not. DC is just keeping the Eurosceptics on side. If he was honest he would clearly promise that a referrendum would be held and ditch the Eurofanatics in the Tory party. He would still win a mandate at the next General Election as so many of the UK public are sick to death of the EU corruption, rules and regulations etc that are just passed in the UK parliament on the nod. We wish to govern ourselves!

    I would like to vote Tory but, at present, it’s for UKIP.

  28. Rob
    Posted June 17, 2009 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Until Cameron stands up and is counted regarding his EU views, my vote remains with UKIP or nobody.

    Ken Clarke is not inspiring me. In fact I think we, the British electorate, have been stitched up yet again. Lisbon is in my humble opinion a done deal, a deal made in smoky backrooms (so much for the benefits of FPTP vs PR) no less.

    Sometimes I wonder if the eurofanatics, with their rabid nationalism (nationalism focused on the European Union, not their actual nations of birth) are deliberately trying to start another European war. I think I’d be hard pressed to find a better way to go about it.

  29. mike rolph
    Posted June 18, 2009 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Again an article that resonates with the electorate but not I believe with the conservative party. I truly believe that the peoples disgust with politics and some of its practitioners extends to most public bodies and their desire to control us and includes the now privatised utilities that happily break the law to enrich themselves at the expense of the poorest and weakest.
    In real terms, that is in the actions they take, there is little to choose between the major parties. Should the conservatives gain power at the next election they will not get two terms to change things as the electorate are wise to the weasel words of party leaders and the desire for a new party representing the interests of the British will become manifest.
    Camerons habit of being all things to all people, learnt from Clinton and Blair will not work a third time.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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