European Union Economic Governance

 

           I have been reading the lengthy documents on EU Economic Governance which the Uk administration invites Parliament  to take note of . I do not think I can in any way  support them.

           The sheer audacity and ambition of them makes clear that many in the EU are now driving hard to complete an economic and moneatry union.  The sheaf of Parliamentary papers begins with the statement  “The main elements of the EU’s common economic policies are the Economic and Monetary Union, with the eventual aim that all member states will adopt the Euro, and the Stability and Growth Pact.”

             The documents refer to the excessive deficit procedure under Article  126 of the latest Treaty, and the power to use the right  to grant financial assiatnce to a member state  facing ” severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional circumstances beyond its control”.  To this is now added the Special Purpose Vehicle for mutual Eurozone support.

                The economic surveillance goes well beyond deficits to  include a “scoreboard of competitiveness indicators, including productivity, labour costs, employment, productivity, current accounts, foreign assets and real exchange rates”. Recommendations are the constructed for each member state based on how well or badly they are doing according to EU judgement.

                “The Government believes there is some merit in the idea of the “EU semester”, which would allow the EU to consider each Member state’s fiscal position at the same time as analysing its performance on structural reform issues… this would also allow all Member states to be given recommendations under the Stability and Growth Pact at the same time of year”

                    The UK is exempted from the sanctions and enforcement measures, but is still part of this big increase in economic surveillance and common policy making. If it is all as harmless and unimportant as the governemnt says, why don’t we just exempt ourselves from the whole thing, and demand powers back in return for any assent to a new Treaty?

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93 Comments

  1. norman
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    You missed out ‘For the moment’ at the start of the last paragraph.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

      Exactly. Unless a new treaty unequivocally states that the UK will NEVER be allowed to join the euro, not even if a future UK government wants to join, and not even if it manages to persuade the public to agree to join through a referendum, then we should work on the assumption that whatever we now agree will apply to a eurozone country may also apply to the UK in the future.

    • lifelogic
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

      “As a fig leaf for Cameron” might be better “than for the moment” in the last paragraph.

      Also you ask “why don’t we just exempt ourselves from the whole thing, and demand powers back in return for any assent to a new Treaty?”. The only answer is – Cameron in defiance of his promises to the electorate no longer wants to negotiate for the UK’s interests. I suspect he never intended to.

      • Mandy Worrall
        Posted November 13, 2010 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

        You expect right.

  2. lifelogic
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Cameron lost this, open goal, election due to his abject failure to put forwards a proper Tory message and his dishonest “cast iron” guarantee . We are thus stuck with this Soviet style madness. The Liberals agenda of pro EU and mad impractical green policies force Cameron, or perhaps as I suspect, assist, him in caving in to this madness. The sensible position of your wing of the party will not help as you are powerless.

    It is profoundly depressing but as I see it the battle is lost.

    • APL
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic: “Cameron lost this, open goal, election due to his abject failure to put forwards a proper Tory message”

      That’s because although Cameron is leader of the Tory party, he isn’t a Tory.

  3. Mick Anderson
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    There’s no such thing as “harmless and unimportant” rules and regulations, especially when Government and the EU are concerned.

    The only reason to impose a change is to make use of that change. There was only ever a referendum on membership of a Common Market (I’m not old enough to even have had that dubious pleasure), and consider where the system has ratcheted itself to now. Change upon change, spread over decades.

    If these new rules are genuinely unimportant then it won’t matter if we include ourselves out. Otherwise we should take the more cynical position that (once again) the politicans are lying to us.

    I know what I’m expecting to happen.

    • barry laughton
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:45 am | Permalink

      It’s all the usual EU creep, from the time of Edward Heath quote when sovereignty would not be affected unquote, (the last time we voted) we have been lied to. The lies of the labour party’s referendum, Tony Blair’s giving away some of our rebate in exchange for reform of the CAP. What reform? And now this lots amendment to a treaty that won’t affect us! HaHa. As soon as a party takes power, whatever has been said before about Europe, is forgotten like a sudden loss of short term memory, the experts can’t decide whether the memory loss is genuine or selective!

  4. Alte Fritz
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    Can anyone say what would happen if we leave the EU? Constiutionally is must still be possible, although measures such as those described push all member states ever closer to the tipping point. Economically, would it matter. A poost last week implied not.

    I ask this fairly extreme question because hope of reforming the EU back to something useful seems dim, and living on with it seems madness.

    • APL
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

      Alte Fritz: “Constiutionally is must still be possible, ”

      It isn’t any longer about what is constitutionally possible, it’s about force. With the introduction of the European arrest warrent, the introduction of foriegn police acting within the UK*, the merging of our military with the French, this is a comprehensive betrayal.

      *It wasn’t so long ago that R4 dutifully trailed the item, migrant workers from Poland were disadvantaged because they had to deal with British police. Hence it was necessary to import foreign police to help the foreigners.

    • Scooper
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

      Alte Fritz

      The Tax Payers Alliance distributed a book authored by Dr Lee Rotherham titled ‘Ten Years On; Britain without the EU’. This is a most interesting publication which examines what would happen after of withdrawl from the EU and I found t plausible. It’s worth a read if you can get hold of a copy.

  5. Oliver Eills
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Dear Mr Redwood, I
    In light of your most recent article, what is your response to Daniel Hannan’s assertion that ‘no party is ever Eurosceptic while in office’?
    Kind regards,
    Oliver

  6. alan jutson
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    John

    I wonder how many other MPs will read the documents as you have, then make a reasoned decision and vote accordingly.

    Most I am sure will just glance at it, place it in a file, and follow like sheep through the yes lobby like nodding donkey’s.

    Why is it that most MPs (of all Party’s) do not seem to understand that they are, in effect, voting away more and more of their powers of decision making to (non UK elected) EU Members, which then increase the costs for running UK PLC and leaves less money for UK priorities.

    Whilst I can guess that these Documents are lengthy, are they difficult to understand, read or interpret ?

    Very, very frustrating.

  7. Gary
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    “we shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question only is whether world government is achieved by consent or by conquest” – Paul Warburg architect of the Federal Reserve to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations Feb 17th 1950

    • CW
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

      That would be the federal reserve that is under pressure to have the first audit since inception in 1913,interesting date too.
      May leave a very interesting paper trail.

  8. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    I hope you will echo Mrs Thatcher’s famous response “No! No! No!”
    Cameron and Clegg may have a cosy little deal about the EU but you parliamentarians need to exercise your powers to defend the British people from this continual EU takeover. We recognise that coalitions mean compromise but that doesn’t have to be capitulation. Don’t be doormats – use what little power you have left.

  9. Roger Helmer MEP
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    John: You’re absolutely right, as usual. But how on earth do we stop it, when the Tory High Command is more pro-Brussels than even New Labour were? Ted Heath must be laughing in his grave — all he hoped and planned for is coming true.

    • EJT
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:22 am | Permalink

      If there are sufficient committed eurosceptic MPs to hold the balance of power, then ensure that the government is continually out-voted in Parliament, whatever the subject of the vote. Whilst stating precisely why you are doing it – Broken promises over Lisbon. Broken promises over repatriation of powers ( If it is not going to be done now, there there is no real intent to do so. ) Acceptance of EU control of X, Y, Z..

      Extreme ? Irresponsible ? No. There is enough evidence – from the last few weeks alone – that the Coalition is not willing to exercise enough power independent of Brussels to even begin to address the challenges facing the country. So what is the point of Westminster ?

      Reply If Labour will not vote against EU powers and budgets Eurosceptics remain firmly in the minority.

      • EJT
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

        My suggestion was that this is not limited to EU powers and budgets. IF you have the power to bring down the government on other issues, ( and I don’t know the numbers and commitment level of eurosceptics), then you are not powerless as Mr. Helmer infers. It’s whether you collectively view the gravity of unopposed rule from Brussels as worth this action or not.

      • APL
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

        JR: “If Labour will not vote against EU powers and budgets Eurosceptics remain firmly in the minority.”

        Remove the beam from thine own eye before you attempt to take the mote from the eye of another..

        Let those in the tory party get rid of the treacherous Europhiles within its own ranks

    • alan jutson
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:56 am | Permalink

      Roger

      Speak out and vote against it would be a start.

      • Jan
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

        Yes, please stand up and be counted on this and take every opportunity to explain to others what’s happening. An EU state is not what we want.

    • Torquil Dick-Erikson
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

      You stop it by rebelling against Cameron. Raise the standard of revolt, to provide a rallying point for the people of Britain.
      Most people are against these policies. Leave the Tory party. Cross the floor. Join forces with Nigel Farage, join UKIP.

      Roger Helmer, you have talked the talk. Now is the time to walk the walk.

  10. startledcod
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    JR (as usual) you have hit the nail on the head “If it is all as harmless and unimportant as the governemnt says, why don’t we just exempt ourselves from the whole thing, and demand powers back in return for any assent to a new Treaty” except in this instance we don’t even need to demand powers back in return. It is simple, ‘thanks but not thanks’, if there is a consequent kerfuffle then the retort must be that this is ‘harmless and unimportant’.

    Similarly, if the idea of extending the franchise to prioners made the Prime Minister ‘sick to his stomach’ then he should have very simply withdrawn the country from the European Convention on Huan Rights. When the inevitable liberal clamour reached a crescendo he could point out that along with the majority in this country found this a measure to far (and out of keeping with the original aims of the ECHR) and that, as he had previously promised (?), we would now be preparing a British Bill of Rights in keeping with majority opinion in this country (deporting foreign criminals would be allowed).

    Every signal from such an action would have been the correct one not least our EU Partners would see that here was someone who spoke softly but carried a big stick.

    • Morningstar
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

      Why do people keep calling for a (Cameron suggested) British Bill of Rights – we have a bill of rights – perfectly serviceable and which has protected the people of this nation since the time of Alfred the Great (yes Magna Carta was just a reaffirmation) there have been various additions over the centuries – but we do not need a NEW one ! I personally would not trust a modern politician (no offense Mr Redwood) to draft a bill of rights – especially as what we have already is more than sufficient (even though the last Government illegally ignored this – and Cameron is likely to do the same).
      Please please – study your history and gen up on the UK constitution before asking for a ‘modern’ bill of rights ! We do not need it ! Our ancestors took care of us well ! If only the Politicians and courts would adhere to its terms ! (In fact Judge Judge in a case a couple of years ago – backed them as they can NEVER be repealed !)

      • Derek Buxton
        Posted November 10, 2010 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

        Hear, hear Morningstar, all very true. No one seems to want to know of our “Bill of Rights” or “Magna Carta”. Blair must have pinched it on his way out.

  11. EJT
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    “which the UK administration invites Parliament to take note of

    For someone like myself, who is not up on the procedural issues, is it possible to explain the process by which this will go forward ? Does it require Parliamentary approval ?

    Thanks.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

      Yes, but possibly only through a single vote in each House.

      If the simplified treaty revision procedure laid down in Article 48(6) TEU was used then as matters stand Section 6 of the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 should come into play:

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/7/section/6

      “6 Parliamentary control of decisions”

      “(1) A Minister of the Crown may not vote in favour of or otherwise support a decision under any of the following unless Parliamentary approval has been given in accordance with this section –

      (a) Article 48(6) of the Treaty on European Union (simplified revision procedure) … ”

      “(2) Parliamentary approval is given if –

      (a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown moves a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of a specified draft decision, and

      (b) each House agrees to the motion without amendment.”

      However Section 3 says that, if Parliament agrees, once a Minister has been given permission to support a draft decision then he can support “an amended version” of that decision without referring back to Parliament.

      • EJT
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

        Thank you, Denis.

      • Andrew Johnson
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

        Gobbledegook. I have posted this before. According to the British Constitution both written and unwritten, (yes there is one) Parliament is sovereign. This means it does NOT have to be bound by any previous legislation or commitments made by previous parliaments, or past governments. Our “Democracy” is based on giving absolute power to the party or parties in government even if the majority is one when votes are taken. The Government can, if they are so minded, abolish, proscribe, amend or withdraw from ANY legislation or agreements. When the electorate are allowed a general election, they are then free to express their view through the ballot box on what has been done in their name.
        Since we have been in the EU in its various guises, the majority of parliamentarians (sic) of all parties have simply ignored this fundamental principle of British sovereignty and democracy.
        As things stand, Mr. Cameron is in grave danger of going down in history as the politician who finally surrendered control of the British Isles, without a shot being fired. I suspect that “Quisling” is too limited a word to describe how real Conservatives feel about him and his fellow collaborators in the EU project, especially in the light of this proposed legislation.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted November 10, 2010 at 10:13 am | Permalink

          It’s perfectly true that Parliament could amend that Section 6 of its own European Union (Amendment) Act 2008, the Act which was passed to approve the Lisbon Treaty, but that is the current law which sets the minimim requirement for parliamentary approval of EU treaty amendments made under the simplified revision procedure of Article 48(6) TEU.

          There would be no point in the government trying to circumvent that minimum requirement by amending Section 6, as that would require going through the full procedures for a new Act. It would be much easier for the government to get each House to vote just once to approve a draft package of treaty amendments, and then go off to the EU and agree to a finalised package which was significantly different.

  12. waramess
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Objectively, this is David Cameron’s Conservative Party. It’s his turn to govern because he was in the chair when the music stopped. Take note that it is not our Conservative Party nor is it our place to participate in decisions. Our place is to watch silently what he does in our name, and the role of the back bencher is to support whatever David Cameron says.

    It really is quite simple if you want to be a winner, otherwise you end up looking like the Black Knight in the Holy Grail.

    Might just as well support it, whatever “It” is because “It” is going to happen anyway.

    • Derek Buxton
      Posted November 10, 2010 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

      Waramess,
      No, it is the Cleggoron party, by no stretch of the imagination is it a “conservative party”, that was dumped by Cameron when he gor the leaders job.

  13. Phil Kean
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Thank you, John.

    Please stand firm.
    .

    • Deborah
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:38 am | Permalink

      Well said

  14. RC Saumarez
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    I hate to sound like a cynic, but as politicians manage to screw things up nationally on a regular basis, is there any reason to think that they wouldn’t do this on a continental scale?

    I really do not know how the march to federalism can be prevented in the short term. Given that regular opinion polls show that the UK population is disenchanted with the EU, can UK politics survive in its current mould? I still think about the gang of 4, who superficially failed but raised the status of Liberals from a fring to a more mainstream party. Is there a message here?

    • Sean O'Hare
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

      The gang of 4 may have raised the status of the Liberal Party, but they destroyed it idealogically by infecting it with socialist doctrine.

  15. Cliff.
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    John,

    There are many real questions in relation to the EUSSR Project that no one, including yourself, appear to want to answer.

    Who is actually the driving force behind the project? How does one go about setting up such an organisation, that state after state will sign up to, whilst at the same time effectively giving up their sovereignty etc? Whose big idea was it?

    Why do so many politicians, who’s real goal is to get into power, give all that power away? If politicians wish to influence the country, why would they give that influence away to a faceless unelected foreign power? What is in it for them?

    Under Mr Cameron’s military deal with France, could we see French troops on our streets dealing with any civil unrest? Could we see British troops on the streets of France to quell any civil unrest there?

    Is there any truth in the information on the internet that Mr Cameron is a “Common Purpose” graduate? If he is, is that compatible with leading the Conservative Party?

    Please answer the questions this time John if you can; one of the most frustraing things about the whole of our current political system, is that no one will give straight answers to straight questions, especially in relation to matters to do with the EUSSR.

    Reply: the project comes from the European governing classes, where many officials like the new style of EU led government, and where many politicians go alogn with it because they like it or cannot see how to arrest it.

    • Cliff.
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:57 am | Permalink

      John,

      Thanks for the reply sadly, it has not really cleared anything up; who are the govening classes? Royalty? Messers Blair, Cameron etc? Who are the “officials” and who appoints them and on what basis?
      What about my other points regarding the military agreement and Mr Cameron’s connection with common purpose?
      I can remember as a kid, when I wanted to stay in the park on the swings and slides, but my mother had had enough and would grab my arm and just pull me home ignoring my protests; I feel in a similar position today with successive governments and PMs, dragging us further and further into the EUSSR without justifying the reasons for it and ignoring our protests; a severe case of Nanny Knows Best!!

      Reply: the governing classes or opinion forming elites in the EU include senior officials, senior executives and Directors or large corporates, senior academics and journalists etc. They are appointed by each other. I have no idea about Common Purpose, and do not expect to see French troops policing the UK any time soon.

      • Cliff.
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

        Thanks John for the reply; that has cleared it up a bit for me.

        It appears from what you have stated, that the whole project is about controlling and managing the population for the benefit of corporations and the extremely wealthy, with the ordinary citizen having less and less influence over the direction their life will take.

        I know that human society evolved, because the weak surrendered some automony in exchange for protection from the King or state, this EUSSR project seems to move away from that concept, by taking more and more control away from the individual and giving it to a giant state grown on authoritarian principles of you are free to do as you want as long as it is the same as “we” want and if you want to do something else, we will crush you.

        I cannot see how the Conservative Party that I have supported all my adult life, could elect a leader that appears to be so in favour of such a political project, it begs the question; is our leader really a Conservative?

    • Scooper
      Posted November 10, 2010 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      Cliff.

      The same shady figures are behind the Bank Of England, EU, African Union as the Federal Reserve (advertises a book which I have not read)

  16. StrongholdBarricades
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Whilst this “for the moment” may not affect the UK, will it impact directly the Celtic Tiger?

    What difference will it make to such a closely bordered country?

    I would say that ignoring allows much greater suffering to be perpetrated on people with whom we have a long and shared interest.

  17. william
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    All is not lost.With luck, as Sam Brittan wrote recently in the FT,the Euro will collapse as inevitably as sterling devaluation was fought against 1961-67.Timing is every thing as regards Europe, and Cameron’s tasks are to restore government finances,reform welfare,and win a second term with an overall majority.Then is the time to define precisely the UK’s legal relationship with Europe(a cherry picking exercise),and put it to the electorate in a referendum in clear language, without hysterical accusations of phobia, scepticism,and with reference to our UK national interest,rather than party political point scoring.

    • Scooper
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

      william

      Do you believe everything which comes out of Party HQ? Firstly, Cast-Iron Dave won’t get a second term, he’s already shown his true colours to a very disappointed electorate. Secondly, if were saddled with the chump for another 5 years, he’ll complete our EU integration not curb it.

      To think otherwise is willfully naive.

  18. FaustiesBlog
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    One of the Tea Party election winners (I forget which) will be holding Constitution courses for members of Congress.

    Why doesn’t someone in the HoC offer British constitution courses and a course on the EU and its workings? I suspect many MPs understand neither how the EU works nor the implications of all EU treaties for Britain’s future.

    If they can’t see the lie of the land, how can they anticipate the road ahead?

  19. Lindsay Jenkins
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    You are right of course – has this government not learned that regulation especially EU regulation was a major cause of the banking crisis?

    Where can mere taypayers and voters read the sinister documents to which you refer?

  20. Jonathan Woolf
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    I’m beginning to despair of Cameron and the Conservative leadership. Having spent 2 years defending him against charges of being all PR and no principles, Blair Mk II, willing to say anything to get elected, I now think I was a complete dupe. Those charges were clearly all true. The leadership are clearly far keener on Clegg, Huhne and co. than the real Conservatives in their own party.

    I think it is instructive to compare the current fates of two small countries with over-sized banking sectors, one in the EU and Eurozone, and one not. Which of Ireland and Switzerland is now heading for a full-on sovereign insolvency because it has bailed out its banks but cannot manage its own currency? Which is therefore importing massive deflation, and has as a result turned a recession into a catastrophic depression?

  21. Tim B
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Great analysis John. The sad fact of the matter is that the current “Conservative” party leadership are perhaps the most pro-EU since Ted Heath sold our country to the Brussels Soviet. Any Eurosceptic MP does the anti-EU cause a disservice by remaining in their party – all the major parties are committed to the EU Federalist plan. The only way this country will ever get back the Sovereignty it has given away, is through UKIP. Anti-EU Conservative MPs MUST “cross the floor” and join UKIP. Remaining within the Tory party will only go to present the myth that the party wants to remain within the EU. Mr Redwood, you joining UKIP would create a massive amount of publicity for the EU-withdrawal cause, and could push other like minded Tory MPs into the same course of action. Ever considered it?

    Reply: The last MP who did that did not stay in UKIP long, had no impact and is no longer an MP. I was elected as a Eurosceptic Conservative and will serve as a Eurosceptic Conservative, as my voters expect me to do.

    • lifelogic
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

      Quite right John the voting system, for Westminster anyway, and the vast number of people who will always vote Labour or Tory (just because they always have) will ensure that UKIP remains without any power at Westminster. The only rather faint hope is a proper Tory government in power.

      But this is rather unlikely given that the EU, the BBC and very many other powerful bodies are conspiring against them and majority of voters. There use of the voters taxes to pay for it all too just to add a further insult to voters in the so called oldest democracy. Even if one were elected too many of the MP’s might be still be tempted by their venality to betray their voters wishes.

    • Tim B
      Posted November 10, 2010 at 8:38 am | Permalink

      I understand why you have come to that conclusion John, but every vote for the current Conservative party is a vote for Euro-federalism, despite the good intentions of people such as yourself, Douglas Carswell and Philip Hollobone. Cameron is proving to be the most pro-EU Prime Minister we have ever had! This country needs high profile politicians such as yourself to come over to UKIP and actually remove this country from the Brussels nightmare.

      (Incidentally the only UKIP MP we had, Bob Spink, later claimed he never actually joined the party, and subsequently stood in the general election as an Independent not as a UKIP candidate)

  22. Ethan
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Look your not surprising the politically aware of the nation with this fresh ‘revelation’. We all know how utterly evil the EU is. We all know Heath lied shamelessly.

    The majority of us want out.

    The political elite know this very well indeed and THAT is why we are constantly denied any democratic say in the matter. Cast Iron Guarantee lied to us as well.

    What I and many other want to know is what are you/ can you do to get us a referendum.

    Must we peasants storm the ramparts, heads on pikes, lynch mob at the ready, before we get some democracy here in the UK region of the EUSSR?

  23. Bill
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Two issues might change some minds:

    1. If it is true that the might US dollar is now at risk, that may make it more important for us to seek shelter in the EU – even if we do not join the Euro. In other words, if economic power in the world is shifting away from the US we would expect our own national policies to reflect that.

    2. There was a report in the Sunday Telegraph a couple of weeks back suggesting that Cameron regularly talks with Merkel and Sarkozy and that he is lining up his ducks to improve the British rebate at some point in this Parliament. If he can do that, we might well evaluate him differently.

    • Morningstar
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

      Please do not mistake the EU as having any economic relevence in the world. Its influence (not that any Europhile would tell you) is on the wane and has been for many years – since China started its rise !

      Economically this country would be FAR far better on its own dealing with all of these emerging (and poorer) nations ! Especially as this country is designated an EU service and agricultural region ! (All freely available info from the EU web site). We all know that service and agriculture are not what are normally known as being well paid sectors ! Even now the grab of the financial sector is being undertaken (guess where that will be going !) The only people who do well out of agriculture are the landowners (with EU subsidies which keep the elite sweet).

      Anyone who thinks the EU is good for the UK is either getting paid off in some way from them or looking at being part of its power structure in the present or near future !

      Anyone who cannot already see this is falling for the propaganda furnished by those mentioned above !

  24. George Earle
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I hope that tomorrow’s debate will stir up the anti-EU feeling in the House and encourage the new MPs who, we are told are all good eurosceptics, to be more bold. It’s time the Better Off Out Group added a lot more MPs to the mere 17 it now has. Courage mes enfants.
    Better still, now is the time for true patriots in the Commons to defect to UKIP and join its dynamic Leader in campaigning to reclaim a proper role for Parliament again. They will, of course, lose all Party preferment and would normally expect to lose their seats at the next General Election. But that may still be 5 years away so that risk is lessened as there is plenty of time for them to change the course of history and become heroes in safe seats.
    Come on Mr. Redwood please you are the best man to give them a lead.

  25. Sue
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    I truly believe that from this fiasco we will discover which MP’s are corrupt and which ones we can trust to safeguard our country.

    It is time that those who are loyal to the country stand up and speak out.

    There will come a day where there will be a reckoning. (personal attack left out) and the British Government for treason.

  26. Jose
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    We don’t have to be Eurosceptics or anti-EU; we need to be more pro-British. Hardly any of the nationals of the other major states in the EU want to be governed from Brussels as opposed to their own government.
    It is simply organised to suit a relatively small, political ruling class and it would seem that ours have their noses in this particular trough just like the rest of the Europeans.
    It’s interesting that this wish to be members of the EU is confined almost solely to politicians and reflects almost nothing of the wishes of the population.

    • EJT
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

      I agree. The Union flag and the England flag were successfully reclaimed from association with racism. I believe that the word “nationalism” should also be so reclaimed.

      Without nationalism, there is no sovereignty
      Without sovereignty, there is no democracy
      Without democracy, there is not the freedom and prosperity which we take from granted

      • EJT
        Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

        for granted, sorry !

    • sm
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

      It would be interesting to note any
      1)EU conditions of employment/pensions 2) National party conditons which effectively silence MP. This says nothing of implied conditions.

      We need to try multiple tracks until we get proper representative democracy.
      1) would be to strengthen consitutional laws as in Germany.
      2) laws to exclude lawmakers and MP’s those voting and influencing on EU matters who are financially beholden to the EU.

      However we need to fix the UK first, i cant fathom why we should increase contributions to the EU at all, its very very wrong.

      Perhaps we need to sell off the BBC to pay for extra EU funding?

  27. Iain Gill
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    what about Europe leading our immigration policies? does this make any sense?

  28. John Whitehead
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    I think the answer for eurocseptic Conservatives is not to join UKIP but to form a new Conservatives For UK Sovereignty Party. then invite UKIP and its supporters to join forces with it (stronger together than apart). Express aims would be (i) to support the Coalition on all matters other than EU/sovereignty issues, including votes of no confidence (ii) support a renegotiation of UK’s position with the EU, which would look for its outcome as some form of associate membership. Perhaps the leader of this party could become a Deputy Prime Minister of the Coalition (like Nick Clegg).

    What this new party would need is a leader who has a strong local constituency base, who is financial secure (assets, accumulated pensions etc.) so probably in his early to mid sixties by the next election, intelligent and articulate with a strong core backing throughout the country. Can you think of anybody like that Mr Redwood?

  29. john kelly
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    The EU progresses by bribing, with taxpayers money, the political elites of the member states, and Cameron is but the latest in a long line of such traitors. By staying loyal to such people, you are deceiving yourself and many others.

    By accepting the intrinsic corruptness of the EU and failing to take a meaningful stand against our own traitors within, you are helping to destroy all that is precious in this sceptred isle.

    Do something patriotic NOW and don’t hang on to something which no longer exists – certainly within the Tory party.

  30. tomsmith
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    With this most recent betrayal of conservative values I don’t understand how the Conservative party stays together. Even if you lost your positions and the pointless influence you now wield, would it not be better for genuine conservatives to leave this coalition and provide parliamentary representation to a large unrepresented section of the electorate?

    • Scooper
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

      Agreed. There is an undercurrent of distrust and loathing of Cameron building in my local party. In power he has shown his true colours and they are not blue. The main reason that we are having to share power with Clegg is that the GE manifesto failed to address the EU at all and subsequently valuable votes were lost to UKIP. Richard North at EU Referendum analysed election results in marginal constituencies and calculated that the UKIP factor cost Cameron an out right win in June.
      There is much anger at Tory grass roots and I would not be surprised to see the party fracture during the term of this parliament, as many activists feel betrayed by the leadership, particularly over Europe. If we can create ‘Conservatives For UK Sovereignty Party’ as suggested above, I would join straight away. The Conservative Party clearly no longer represents Conservative voters and this will lead to a defeat at the next GE.

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted November 9, 2010 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

      With you 100%. Disaffected MPs have 4+ years to do something for future generations, they won’t regrettably.

  31. Andrew Smith
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    I have little to add to the debate about how unhappy Conservative MPs should now act but they will lose all credibility if they keep praying to be good, but not yet!

    It is helpful to have these matters aired but apart from the converted one wonders who reads them. Does the press read this material, and if so does it ever affect their reporting? A major row in Parliament and a few resignations of the whip (at least), now that would get reported.

  32. Mark
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Basically the EU is trying to be in position to sequestrate our assets to bail out the problems they created. They now have the Irish on the hook, making them peons of the ECB. It is a race against time for the EU. If they fail, the whole edifice will not merely crumble, but collapse. If they succeed they will sow the seeds of revolution on a timescale that is hard to predict.

    The previous government seems to have thought the best defence was to turn all our assets into debts so there would be nothing of value to sequestrate. The present government has yet to articulate its defence, but seems to have marched on the road to capitulation.

    I urge readers to consider this article from Prof Morgan Kelly of UCD about what has happened in Ireland – and what the future may hold there.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1108/1224282865400.html

    It could be our future too inside the EU straightjacket.

  33. Freeborn John
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Please vote against John. And if you see our sorry Brussels lapdog MP, Phillip Lee, tell him his constiutuents want him to vote against as well.

  34. norman
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    A lot of people asking for a schism in the Conservative Party. I don’t think this is the way to go. Cameron isn’t the first pro-EU, centrist leader the Party has had (Heath immediately springs to mind) and he won’t be the last. Margaret Thatcher wasn’t the first right of centre leader nor will she be the last. Our time must come again, or the Party is finished.

    After Cameron is just a bad memory the Party will still be here and what is needed is more right of centre MP’s and more right of centre members to choose the next leader. If one in ten of the million people who voted UKIP at the general election joined the Party we’d dominate the membership, which is in terminal decline.

    Saying that I’m not happy that a Party of 310 ‘Eurosceptic MP’s’ (as we heard time and time again before the election) are doing absolutely nothing about this situation. No one expects you to bring down the government with spoiling actions but do something, show some fight.

    Let’s hope it’s a case that the remaining freedom loving conservatives (a better term than Eurosceptic) are keeping their powder dry and that they will erupt with a bang, not go down with a whimper.

  35. jedibeeftrix
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    “If it is all as harmless and unimportant as the governemnt says, why don’t we just exempt ourselves from the whole thing, and demand powers back in return for any assent to a new Treaty?”

    The tragedy is that we have not extracted a price for our assent, it is not exactly a new idea, i have been been banging on about the very idea since mid-march, the same day your blog demanded the same.

    http://jedibeeftrix.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/opportunity-or-threat-how-will-cameron-respond-to-the-proposal-of-a-european-monetary-fund/

  36. AndyC71
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    I’ve never said this before, but unless Mr Cameron and Mr Hague get to grips with the sovereignty issue, and fast, then it’s UKIP for me in the future. I don’t care if UKIP are a bunch of fruitcakes, they will have my vote. The way things are going, voting will mean nothing anyway before long.

    If the signing of the Lisbon Treaty by the previous government was an act of treason – and I believe it was – then the position of the current government is surely just as bad, since they have the opportunity to do something about it and have not done so.

    Very depressed about this country’s prospects and very disappointed in the government so far.

  37. Barbara
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who has read ex Chief Accountant Marta Andreasen’s “Brussels Laid Bare” would never let the EU within several miles of overseeing its economy – or give it another penny, ever. Do read it, if you haven’t already done so – it’s shocking.

  38. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Good, the worm is turning at last.

    The logic of your position is that you will refuse to ‘take note’ and will force a division on the issue.

    And you can already begin drafting the European policy section of the next Conservative manifesto.

    Maastricht won’t do. Amsterdam won’t do. Nice won’t do. Lisbon won’t do. And we DO DO DO want a two ring Europe, and will make a grant to any Member State wanting to leave the Euro.

  39. Bob Eldridge
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Cameron is a buildburger (look them up) and is commited to a United States of Europe.
    Finally John is beginning to see that, in the end, we lost the war!.
    Bob

  40. George Earle
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Redwood, You replied to Tim B “The last MP who did that did not stay in UKIP long, had no impact and is no longer an MP. I was elected as a Eurosceptic Conservative and will serve as a Eurosceptic Conservative, as my voters expect me to do”.
    Bob Spink showed that one MP on his own carries little weight. We need a group of MPs to break away to join UKIP. They will have considerable weight against the Government’s small majority and they would have nearly 5 years to prove their point.
    Can you tell me what use a Eurosceptic Conservative MP is to his constituents unless he regularly defies his whips? There are plenty of cases where the HOC is waving through EU originated legislation.

    Reply: As I keep pointing out, Conservative Eurosceptics can stop nothing unless Labour and others also vote against.

  41. Idris Francis
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    “May the Lord make me chaste – but not yet Lord, not yet” said St. Augustine, very much the patron saint of eurosepctic MPs – dithering instead of acting, hoping like Billy Bunter that something will turn up.

    I sometimes wonder why not once (as far as we know) did the thousands of prisoners in the extermination camps at any given moment did not decide that if they were going to die anyway, they might as well take a few of the guards with them. Perhaps they too were hoping that something or someone would turn up – the US Cavalry or The Lone Ranger?

    Some at least had the excuse that they did not know the fate that awaited them, but those who played in the camp orchestra for months, giving a false impression and perhaps hope to the condemned climing off the death trains and filing past them t their doom, did know, but did nothing, in exchange for being spared a little longer.

    For almost 40 years the ratchet has clicked remorselessly while siren voices cried “Oh they don’t really mean it – no question of a single State called Europe, oh dear me no – what made you think that?” Each click of the ratchet was supposed to be the last, each opt-out supposed to be clear and binding, each new chain to be the last – or of no significance, but within days come more, all aimed at what we are now perilously close to seeing – a single State not only with its own currency, legal system and Foreign Office but also Police, Army, Navy, Air Force and European Gendarmerie, ready to suppress dissent and “restore order” anywhere including within any EU area.

    What do you think “Ever closer union” means?

    An old and sound tennis motto is “Never change winning tactics, always change losing tactics”. For 40 years we have been losing every game, set and match – and still we see the same eurosceptic tactics – “People are not ready to be told that we have to leave”, “We don’t want a referendum on leaving until we can be certain of winning it” (Tebbit at the Bruges Group last month) (you can be sure that when we can be certain of winning we won’t be given the chance) “Mustn’t rock the boat after waiting 13 years to get back into office”, “if I switched to UKIP I would lose my seat in 2015” and all the other excuses in the book for doing nothing. But the salaries are OK, holidays are good and pensions are excellent – why worry that Parliament is now virtually powerless?

    Others were made of sterner stuff. Churchill in his “fight them on the beaches” speech said “Better to die than live as slaves”. Indeed so.

    Does anyone really CARE who is on office or who is a MP after 2015, if we are still in the EU and under their total control? WHO CARES?

    Does anyone REALLY think that Cameron and Clegg are the way forward?

    About 2 years ago at a Bruges Group meeting I asked Andrew Roberts this question from the floor:

    “Would you tell us how the competence and integrity of current politicians compares to those of 20, 40, 60, 80 years ago – and if like me you think they are rubbish, would you tell us why?”

    He replied “You are quite right, and the reason is that anyone with any understanding of politics knows that all power has gone from Westminster to Brussels, and there is nothing worthwhile to be achieved – so we are left with the second rate and time-servers looking for a cushy job” or words to that effect.

    John Redwood knows that I believe that one of the greatest tragedies in recent politics was when he narrowly failed to get enough leadership votes to bring down Major – if he had we would be in far better state than we are.

    But Mr. Redwood – are you really that bothered about being re-elected in 2015 to a Parliament that has no powers left? To be ignored yet again by the trendy PR Spivs now running the Tory Party – not one of whom will ever match your abilities?

    To see this country slide deeper and deeper into the EU mire and to be brought to its knees by the EU’s fatal combination of incompetence, Socialist totalitarian dogma, and blind determination never to change course?

    Better, surely, far better, as Churchill said, to go down fighting, guns blazing, than to carry on sleep-walking into the EU nightmare? And not just you of course, but the other MPs who know perfectly well that this will end in tears, and far worse than tears, unless it is resolved in the near future.

    It is time, once and for all, for the already sizeable group of MPs to decide that “We are mad as hell and are just not going to take this any more” – and make it absolutely clear to Cameron and Clegg that you are perfectly prepare to bring down this coalition unless and until we see a real movement towards (at least) repatriacion of the many powers Cameron promised – and in the longer term more.

    We really cannot afford to allow Cameron, Clegg, Hague and others to carry on giving our country away any longer,

    THE TIME IS NOW. NOTHING WILL HAPPEN UNLESS YOU MAKE IT HAPPEN.

    ACTION THIS DAY

    Reply: I voted with 41 others against the EU budget. Labour failed to help us, so we were miles off winning. We can do the same again, but it does not get us anywhere.

  42. Douglas Denny
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    So what’s new?

    The Conservatives have sold this country down the river – and you are a part of that miserable, despicable political organisation – emerging your head above water level every now and then, with a few feeble anti-EU gaspings and wheezings…. to then disappear under the water without trace again like the Lock Ness Monster.
    (Does John Redwood really exist? I haven’t heard of him for years!).
    ———

    You and I (and many others) have known about the piecemeal salami technique of taking over the sovereignty of Britain, allowing the EEC and then EU to continue unchecked towards its goal of a federal Europe – ONE country – that is: EUROPE.

    Successive governments here in Britain since Ted Heath have been following this road. Any fule kno that!

    You personally were a part of it…. for YEARS, …and still are, so it is no use whingeing-on now to me about “you cannot support it” ! – of _course_ you will support it, as your Conservative Party _says_ you will support it, and so you will! …as you always have done!

    You played this silly game with the Maastrict Treaty too, and with the Lisbon Treaty….. and now all is lost : the Lisbon Treaty is a done deal: signed sealed and delivered because you and the other traitors in the Conservative party have been in the past and are now .. happy to receive your pieces of silver as an MP to promote this process of progressive sovereignty loss in parliament when you should be fighting tooth and nail against it and _resigning_ if necessary.
    You did not even have the guts to join the Maastrict rebels against John Major as my chum Chris Gill did.

    I have had e-mail exchanges with you in the past pleading with you to make your anti-EU opinions known more widely in the press and in parliament when something could have been done about it; but it became very clear to me you are just another MP who is ‘all mouth and trousers’ as they say in the North of England… as much use towards the saving of your country from the raping and ravaging of the country by the EU as a chocolate teapot.

    Don’t bother whingeing weakly “I don’t think I can support it” …DO something about it.

    Douglas Denny.

    Reply: I resigned from the Cabinet to make a fight to save the pound. I have written and spoken endlessly to alert this country to the dangers of too much EU government, and am still doing so through this site and in Parliament. Try working out who is trying to help you before attacking me.

    • douglas denny
      Posted November 10, 2010 at 1:31 am | Permalink

      More whinging and whining! … and you complain you are being “attacked”.

      Don’t you think you deserve it then? _You_ ! trying to suggest to _me_ that you are trying to “help me” (meaning teh anti-EU cause.
      Ha! It just doesn’t cut the mustard Mr. Redwood! I’ve seen NO help thus far from you.
      I’m in UKIP and YOU are in the Conservative Party. That says it all ! My party is trying its damnedest to get us OUT of the EU and yours is doing (and has for 40 years) everything in its power to keep us IN.

      Too late now to claim anti-EU credentials, as if you are some kind of “friend” to the anti-EU cause. Your time was _yesterday_ to do something effective when you had the power to do so. YOU DID NOT DO SO – and now you are just a yesterday’s man. You have little power now beyond using the bottle of whisky and the pearl-handled revolver to atone as far as I am concerned.
      ———-

      I note the excellent comments by Idris Francis above those of mine, which put the case against you and your ilk much more powerfully than I could ever do. His denouncement is spot-on, clinically correct.

      I have watched as the Conservative Party and successive Leaders of that party – and Willie Hague in particular even now continues in his deceitful, (etc) way .. to pull the wool over the eyes of your voters and bamboozle them into believing your party is going to make it …”all right on the night” …when in fact it is working in teh opposite direction and everything is practically lost already. And yet still the (word left out) BIG LIE is perpetrated from Willie Hague – the Conservatives are going to make it all OK! No More loss of sovereignty. HA! haven’t we heard all that before?

      Your weak protest to me now is stronger than that of yours at Maastrict.
      I have done everything in my power to fight it for over twenty five years but what have _you_ actually DONE?

      _You_ are still an MP taking the pieces of silver whilst you look on as parliament is emasculated and whilst your country goes down the pan. Why?
      Why are you not OUTSIDE of the Conservative Party – OUTSIDE of Parliament where any self-respecting parliamentarian should be who loves his country and can see what is happening and THAT due to his own party’s efforts!
      Why are you not outside of the Conservative party having crossed the floor of the House of Commons to join UKIP? Or outside of parliament having denounced the machinations of Maastrict and Lisbon and VOTING against them? (and hence suffering the martyrs political death of de-selection from your constituency?)…. like my friend and hero Chris Gill did?

      I sent Chris Gill a DVD of ‘A Man for All Seasons’ as he had not seen that great film of Sir Thomas Moore, and I compared his heroic actions (and the others of John Major’s ‘bastards’) at Maastrict to that of Thomas Moore.
      It was the same in principle.
      Sir Thomas Moore lost his head for standing up against a King’s demands because he thought they were morally wrong and he could not go against his conscience. Chris lost his seat as an MP because Maastrict was morally wrong and against his conscience. Both had high principles on matters of State. Chris’ actions had not quite as high a price to pay, he did not loose his head, but were just as Saintly in my book. you either have principles like this or you do not.

      Where are your principles M. Redwood? …I have not seen any apparently displayed yet with ACTION.

      And where do you stand Mr Redwood as we, the people, now stand looking into the abyss of slavery from a new European hegemony of France and German domination?
      ..I’ll tell you.. in the House of Commons, drawing a nice fat salary as you watch like Nero as Rome burns and the country is given away to a federal Europe and the people enslaved against their solemn Bill of Rights and Act of Settlement 1689/9
      … you and all the other Conservative and ‘other parties’ traitors. I despise you all.
      Your shame should sit upon your shoulders like the weight of the world upon Atlas.
      ———–

      There is little time now for a last chance to DO SOMETHING.
      I would suggest that in your position there is only one thing to try to do – stop this evil axis of a coalition in its tracks for the continuing deceptions about the EU and their false “promise” of no more sovereignty losses. Yes – step out of line – tell the truth – go out in a grand blaze – get some balls from somewhere and just DO IT.
      You might (just might) gain some credibility out of the ashes of your miserable career and can forever at least then say – “Well I tried to stop it even if it was late in the day”.
      I might even admire that.

      Douglas Denny.

  43. william
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    I thought my referendum idea, post the next election, was cleaner than complaining about what we have got, for now.

  44. theyenguy
    Posted November 9, 2010 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Through European Union Economic Governace, Quantitative Easing 2, and trade agreements such as that of the ASEAN group, eeconomic and political conquerors are now rising to establish ten regional oligarchies of state corporate rule; this is also known as global corporatism.

    Leaders’ announcements have waived national sovereignty and established a region of global governance in the Eurozone as evidenced by the Conclusions of the European Council October 28, and 29, 2010 Summit in PDF Format, these being found on the European Council press release page, and the remarks of Herman Van Rompuy, President of the European Council at the press conference following the meeting of the Heads of State of Government entitled Strengthening Economic Governance In The EU in PDF Format, as well as the announced Fiscal Surveillance Procedures In The EU In PDF Format. The latter provides for vetting of national budgets before they are presented to the national legislatures and institutes fiscal federalism in the Eurozone.

    Additional evidence that a European region of global governance has formed is the package of Commission Proposals On EU economic Governance DG Ecfin 29 September 2010.

    Bible prophecy relates that eventually, a Sovereign will arise as world ruler … as Revelation 13:5-10 foretells of a sovereign king, that is a monarch, who has sovereign power and authority to rule.

    He will be complimented by the False Prophet and Seignior, that is a world religious leader who also acts as chief world banker … as Revelation 13:11-18 tells of a globally sovereign religious leader and banker. He is the Seignior, meaning, top dog who takes a cut; in modern-day terms, an investment banker who securitizes credit and manages lending, he is also the world’s religious leader, and via investment and commerce connections institutes a global seigniorage wealth and commerce system as well as a global currency system.

    Seigniorage means top dog bank-note system, and comes from the Scottish and Bank of England financial system which was devised to maintain the value of currency, with reference found in ‘The History of Seigniorage Wealth Elaine Meinel Supkis’ February 7, 2008 Money Matters Blog.

  45. Scooper
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    “Reply: I resigned from the Cabinet to make a fight to save the pound. I have written and spoken endlessly to alert this country to the dangers of too much EU government, and am still doing so through this site and in Parliament. Try working out who is trying to help you before attacking me.”

    So far so good then John. I don’t deny your position and your efforts to raise public awareness of what the EU actually stands for, but it’s not working is it? Your speeches and questions in The House are too subtle for many and you really need to start taking more drastic action sooner rather than later. I have no doubt that you can win the intellectual debate but we now face a tipping point in the transfer of power to Brussels and it needs to be stemmed urgently.
    A lot of people are counting on you to make your actions meaningful and to give millions a cause to follow.

  46. Tomasz Kornaszewski
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    OK, John

    So what is your plan?

    I am sick of hearing doom stories, I want some positives. What we can do? What action is possible? I want to hear a plan, a bit of plan.

    I am Pole who voted once against Poland membership in EU. Now I live in UK and want to do something against this Leviathan. It must be possible. I do not buy story about way without retreat. We must fight, but we need plan and coordination.

    Tomasz Kornaszewski

    Reply: Elect more Eurosceptics to Parliament and get behind those that have been elected.

  47. Duyfken
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    The intemperate charges made by Mr Denny are unfair on John Redwood and little advance the debate. Rather puts me off UKIP.

    Yes, I do feel it is time for concerted action by eurosceptic MPs, MEPs and others. But it is easy to goad others into precipitate action – which could ruin careers – in the safety of knowing that one’s own position remains unaffected.

    Although now it all seems like a lost cause, I do congratulate you, Mr Redwood, on holding firmly to and promulgating your opinions, and may you, with those like-minded, continue the fight. I note and am cheered to see the efforts made by Douglas Carswell this week in trying to bring our civil servant in Brussels to account.

    Possibly some day the tide will turn in our favour.

    • Scooper
      Posted November 10, 2010 at 9:57 am | Permalink

      Duyfken:”Yes, I do feel it is time for concerted action by eurosceptic MPs, MEPs and others. But it is easy to goad others into precipitate action – which could ruin careers – in the safety of knowing that one’s own position remains unaffected.”

      So what happened to politicians being elected to Parliament to represent the views of their constituents? Much of the problem with modern day politicians is that this is their only career and they have too much to lose if they upset the Whips. You have to wonder what the point is of sending them there in the first place if all they are going to is rubber stamp whatever they are told to do.
      Parliament is seriously lacking people with any sort of principle.

      • alan jutson
        Posted November 10, 2010 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

        Scooper

        If John Redwood speaks and votes against this document, how is he rubber stamping anything.

        I agree with Dyfunkin, very easy to ask others to make a stand no matter what the cost. Much more sensible to wait until the time is right, and in the meantime make your views known more widely and try to gather support.

        At the moment there is simply not enough public support for a stand against the EU. The Media have failed to make any sensible contribution to an anti EU stance, and without the Media supporting such a campaign to inform the masses of the problems/cost, you are simply lost.

        Yes, many who read this blog site and who make contributions are probably better informed and do have strong opinions, because they have made it their business to get interested, but face the fact, we are in the minority. The masses would prefer to watch a whole range of soaps, and reality shows on TV than get interested or involved in/or with Politics.

        If JR made a stand now he would fail, and be lost to politics because of the maths.

        JR has a range of skills apart from Europe, which the Country can ill afford to lose, his grasp of finance being just but one.

        If JR made a stand now, I believe he would simply be classed as a petulant, self centred opportunist. Remember the label given to David Davis, who made a stand against the loss of civil liberties/freedom, he was right, but where did that get him ?

        John, keep on fighting from within, keep on making your points in your own clear and concise manner, eventually you will gather more support, but not until the Media start to smell the coffee will you really make progress.

        Yes I am a constituant in Wokingham, and yes I did vote for John Redwood, who happens to be an excellent and very efficient local MP.
        His time will come, but I fear not for many years.
        One thing is for sure, he needs to be in a Party which is in Government for him to make any difference when the time does come, so as far as UKIP is concerned, forget it.

        • Scooper
          Posted November 11, 2010 at 11:21 am | Permalink

          Mr Jutsun

          If John voted against the Document he indeed would NOT be rubber stamping anything. I make the point that the majority of MPs will turn up at Parliament and do exactly what they are told by the whips.

          You mention that John’s time may not come for many years. We cannot afford to wait any longer, and if you read the transcript of Van Rompuy’s speech of 9/11, you will realise what we are up against.

          I agree that many people would prefer watching the X Factor to politics but there is equally a mistrust and dislike of the EU in that population. In order to mobilise those people, we need a credible man of substance to take the lead and that may just be Mr Redwood.

          Reply: I did of course vote against the EU economic governances regulations and Directive. The Opposition did not join us.

  48. Tom
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    The death of Sir James Goldsmith was a tragedy for British politics. His leadership, money and intellect would have made a serious impact on our relationship with the EU.

    While UKIP may have the arguments which are shared by most Eurorealists they unfortunately have too many strident weirdos among their members and leadership to be taken seriously . Had they only stood against Europhile MPs in the last two elections the UK would have rejected the Lisbon Treaty, there would be no coalition and Tory Eurosceptics would be a stronger force to be reckoned with.

  49. Vic Wroth
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Who is surprised???

    Every day now we have EU interferance on our governance all passed ” on the nod” with the odd “Sunspot” of comment from our MPs and without any concurrence from an insulted and aggrieved electorate over the denied Referendum.

    It seems that the nation,and particularly their so called representatives are asleep as our once proud nation gives away its prerogative of control. So what are 600 odd MPs now for? (I can see great savings and simplifications there!!)

    Leaders – where are you when we need you?!!!!

  50. Andrew Jones
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood Sir, where is our referendum on continued membership of this BDSM club?

    I know you have no power/authority in this regard but any chance of a personal opinion?

    Reply: There will not be one because the main party leaderships do not want one.

  51. iain
    Posted November 10, 2010 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood,
    After that farce in the Commons today, isnt it time you and your fellow Eurosceptics left a Conservative Party which no longer cares what you think on Europe? …what will it take for you to make the break, to make a difference and actually fight for what you and I know the people of the UK really want.

  52. Cliff.
    Posted November 11, 2010 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    John,

    Yesterday afternoon, (Wednesday) I sat through the so called debate on this subject live from the House of Commons on the BBC Parliament channel.
    May I thank you, Bill Cash and one or two others, including one from the Labour benches for putting your case so well.
    The minister was unable to argue against any of the points the Euro sceptics made and just repeated the same tired mantra; to be honest, I thought I was listening to a Labour minister not someone representing the government.

    It was a sad reflection on the state of our politicians patriotism when only forty brave people voted to stop the mission creep by the giant socialist superstate which is the EUSSR.

    It is a sad day for democracy when a so called Conservative led government nods through more and more anti British rules and regulations that integrate us further and further into the EUSSR.

    I cannot see us ever being allowed to vote on whether people want to go further down the road of political union as I am sure those pro EUSSR politicians know full well what the answer would be.

    Democracy is dead in our country and it is sad to think that a Conservative (sic) led government will bury it.

  53. Steve S
    Posted November 11, 2010 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    The euro will fail – irrespective of these treaty changes that seek to safeguard it and in effect legalise that which the EU has been doing illegally (which in itself shows the true nature of the beast that we are dealing with here). Let them have their treaty, on the nod, and let us endure the economic surveillance that it brings. When Ireland, Spain and Italy go bust, that will bring down the whole EU edifice. We can then say “told you so” and call the shots and terms of our disentanglement form Superstate socialism once and for all.

  54. Jonathan Oakton
    Posted November 11, 2010 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr Redwood,
    It only seems to be about 5 months since you where grumpy about how UKIP cost the conservatives an overall win in the General Election. Perhaps now we have all had time to reflect, it is important to realise that the people of Britain can no longer trust the conservative party.
    How many of your fellow conservative MPs voted against the Lisbon ammendment Bill last night ?
    Was it 23 or 24 ?
    The cast iron party is rusting into nothing. This actually saddens me as I was an active member in the Thatcher days and in the first minutes of the Major moment.

    One only has to look at the reader comments in todays Daily Mail to see how the country is changing towards UKIP .The people want “out” ,Cameron can provide it or get left behind. nobody minds about him either way because now there is a real Conservative Party led by Farage.

    I don’t think that you would be allowed to leave the conservatives because the Party relies on people like you, Danny Hannan MEP and Roger HelmerMEP to use as “stand ups” so that the membership can point to “eurosceptics” and say that maybe the conservatives are ok ….if you were gone, then who would take your position as the tame europhobes that do no damage ?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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