The Merkel summit

 

           As Mrs Merkel drives Euroland towards greater EU control over budgets and economies I would like Mr Cameron to say the UK needs a different relationship with this emerging state. It is up to them how they pay for their currency and their wider union, as logn as we are not expected to contribute. The UK should only consent to the changes they need if we get protection from the legal and financial demands they increasingly wish to impose on us.  I will write more tomorrow about this.

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59 Comments

  1. Antisthenes
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Will Cameron come back from Berlin a Chamberlain or a Churchill. I believe we know the answer to that look for a lot of paper waving.

    • A different Simon
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

      I think we’ve got more hope of Cameron converting to radical Islam (etc) .

      • Tim
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

        I think we all have the measure of Mr Cameron now. He has shown by his actions but claims the reverse. He is certainly no patriot but wants further job opportunities once he leaves office.
        Can’t remember a better time to get our In/Out referendum as I’m certain there are no benefits from our continuing membership of the EU dictatorship. We can trade ouitside it like everyone else with the deficit substantially in their favour (£50 billion last year and £262 billion over 10 years)

  2. niconoclast
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Will she exhort the lazy Europeans to to toil (etc-ed)? What should the response be to Germany’s bid for EU hegemony? Neine ,danke.Aufweidersehen,pet.I went to Munich in 81 and yes the streets were very clean but still,no thank you.

  3. JohnOfEnfield
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    I am in total agreement with you.

    Angela Merkel needs to understand that a currency needs ALL the institutions and consent necessary to run a currency. Including the consent of its peoples. The Euro doesn’t have these institutions and so no one is in a position of power to “save” the Euro. We have arrived at the point where the markets can now see that the “Emperor has no clothes” – none at all. There is nothing that can be done to save it. Nothing.

    No amount of gerrymandering (sorry I couldn’t resist the pun) will change this situation. Cameron should be taking Merkel through the inevitable consequences of her position.

    The UK should minimise its involvement is this charade and certainly resist any new rules or treaties, especially any version of the Tobin tax.

    • Disaffected
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

      You are wrong in your analysis because the project is about political ideology NOT economics. The latter is helping Germany to takeover Europe and have a stronger say in the way the pan European state will be created and run. With Germany at the head table.

      Rogue nations, through economics or opposing the ideology, are being taken over. Look at Ireland, Greece and Italy.

      What has Cameron done to speak up for Ireland? The country we thought so much about to lend it £7 billion contrary to what Cameron said about helping bail out EU countries. Another £9 billion bail out money in July to the IMF and another tranche of money going to the IMF in the near future. While spinning lies that the UK will not contribute. We already have and are going to continue.

      The money the UK gives to the IMF will bail out Greece which will help them pay for the 6 submarines they are buying from Germany. Why doesn’t Germany and Greece cancel the order and save the billions leaving out the UK and other countries from bailing them out??

      All the negative talk from Germany about the UK and its lack of help. Why doesn’t Germany put its hands in its pocket, they created the scheme that its economy is profiting from. Germany allowed countries to act against the rules of the wretched Maastricht Treaty. Let them have the consequences of their actions- tough.

      • zorro
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

        Before Germany starts lecturing others, it can pay back its war reparations….

        zorro

      • Steven Whitfield
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

        I agree with Disaffected in the sense that I have come to the conclusion that using reason,facts and common sense to argue with the federalists is as useless as trying to cut wood with a piece of chocolate.
        The one thing that the federalists fear is harsh economic realities but even these can be remedied (in their eyes anyway ) by cranking up the printing press.

        The pro Europeans and European realists, live in different worlds and might aswell speak different languages for all the good debating has done.

        We need to attack the ideology that underpins the project . But this is most unlikely to happen. Political correctness prevents us discussing issues surrounding German and French interests in dominating Europe and the reasons why our own elites wish to encourage our submersion in an EU superstate.

        Brick by brick, piece by piece this nation is being slowly, ever so slowly hollowed out, dismantled, but nobody dare mention it.

        The British Bulldog is all too happy to roll over and have his tummy tickled by Germany.

  4. Derek Vaughan
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    O Lord our God arise, Scatter her enemies. And make them fall; Confound their
    politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks, On Thee our hopes we fix, God save us all! …

  5. oldtimer
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    On the previous thread I posted a link to this article:
    http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/7290

    The author, a professor at the University of Munich, concludes:
    “The European parliaments have no control over this game, and as such Sarkozy’s defiant statement is more than an empty threat. The ECB Council is the true economic government of the Eurozone. As long as it retains its power, it can threaten the parliaments of the Eurozone with the printing press and enforce comprehensive rescue measures, up to and including a transfer union.”

    If true, surely this is dynamite to the Germans?

    • javelin
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

      As I pointed out in the previous post the ECB council are an unelected dictact – who have just voted themselves e 20 BILLION a week budget. That is E ONE TRILLION a year to spend on Government bonds. Not sure what the UK total budget is – but if a group of central bankers can vote through a ONE TRILLION BUDGET with no electoral mandate and no public scruitiny- then the whole of the EU is completely out of control.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-18/ecb-council-backs-27-billion-weekly-limit-on-bond-buying-faz-reports.html

      It is clear the EFSF has failed. The market does not want to leverage the fund up to 1 TRILLION – so the ECB has decided its simply going to raise its own buynig powers.

      Cameron need to go if he lets this pass without complete rejection.

      • oldtimer
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

        Yes, I picked this up from the links you helpfully provided in the previous thread.

        It appears to be an extraordinary state of affairs. Have the politicians lost control of the EU/EZ monster, including Merkel and Sarkozy? If Professor Sinn (what an appropriate name) is correct in the referenced article then the ECB is indeed beyond the control of Merkel, the Bundesbank and the Bundestag. The officials are running rings round the politicians. No doubt their excuse is/will be to say they are saving the politicians from themselves by averting a financial meltdown in the EZ.

        Meanwhile King and Cameron appear to be at odds with one another over this, on my reading of past public statements. King supports the Bundesbank; Cameron supports printing money. Looks like anarchy all round to me.

  6. Robert Christopher
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    JR: ” As Mrs Merkel drives Euroland towards greater EU control over budgets and economies I would like Mr Cameron to say the UK needs a different relationship with this emerging state.”

    So would I !
    I would also like him to DO SOMETHING !
    The Titanic needed more lifeboats, but NO ONE did anything about it.

    Sorry, I should have remembered:
    “It’s not the right time; we are going to use our influence, being at the heart of Europe, and Nick can keep him EU pension.”

    • German finance minister: Britain WILL join the euro
    • Secret German plan to derail British EU referendum
    • Protests and violence on streets of Italy and Greece
    • Credit crunch fears as UK banks pull cash from Europe
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8846201/Debt-crisis-live.html

    • Disaffected
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

      Robert,
      I thought it was only me seeing a different message from the press conference and what German ministers are saying. The German Finance minister also sees the pound as dead.

      Cameron still appears to be going along with this rubbish. Tories are not coming to their senses, the only answer is UKIP. There is absolutely no prospects of renegotiation, Germany will tolerate it. Cameron is applying a long game to change public opinion. He did not want a public referendum, sometime in the future, therefore there is absolutely no chance of proper renegotiation or repatriation of powers from the EU while he is PM. Especially with Lib Dems in government.

      The picture is clear, the only solution for the UK is in out referendum forced by the public.

    • uanime5
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

      “The Titanic needed more lifeboats, but NO ONE did anything about it.”

      The Titanic had the number of lifeboats required by law. Unfortunately this law was outdated and designed for ships one quarter the size of the Titanic.

      “Secret German plan to derail British EU referendum”

      You mean the Germans were behind 80% of Parliament voting against this referendum. Also how do you know about this secret plan?

      • James Matthews
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

        The Titanic didn’t need more lifeboats, it needed to be on a different course. The same applies to HMG.

      • Martyn
        Posted November 18, 2011 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

        I think that we shall find that the “secret German plan to derail British referendum” is no secret, because Merkel is already on the record of having said “the Treaty must be amended in such a way that it must not call for referenda in other nations”.
        Which means that when it is amended to bring it into line with EU economic diktat Cameron will be able to claim that “it is a simple adjustment, not a new Treaty and there is no need for the UK to hold a referendum”.
        I very much want to be wrong, but still think that there will be no UK referendum and before the end of this Parliament we shall be pitch-forked into scrapping the £ in favour of the Euro – probably at the worst possible time exchange-rate wise…

      • Mactheknife
        Posted November 19, 2011 at 1:04 am | Permalink

        @uanime5

        The “secret plan” was leaked in a memo from within the German government I believe.

    • John Maynard
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

      Calm down, you should have realised that the Telegraph is no longer a “reliable source” by now.

      The German finance minister was only expressing his belief that Sterling would eventually join the Euro – nothing sinister in his statement, in fact it was said in quite a friendly way.

      In 2008, “renowned US investor” Jim Rogers announced that the pound Sterling “was finished” (sterling was about 1.44 to the dollar then), which also made headlines.
      Let us hope that Mr Jim “Soros” Rogers made a stonking great loss betting against Sterling.

  7. RB
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Notwithstanding all of our various views on the EZ issues, this meeting is a fascinating encouter between Cameron and Merkel. I cannot help thinking that if either party wanted, it could be a seminal moment. Many, of course, think that it will be a damp squib, and they’re probably justified, but lets see.

  8. Peter van Leeuwen
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    This may be a good opportunity for a backroom deal on German support for British interests, but Cameron might not be able to be very open about it without upstaging his hostess. If a deal is struck it might become clearer after the EU summit in December.

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

      The last thing we need or want is German Support for anything at all.
      That is what the Irish, the Greeks and the Italians did and look what happened.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

      Oh Peter, you are now reduced to clutching at straws and making up little conspiracy theories. The EU is now as dead as a dodo, it is just how much more damage it does before it finally shuffles off this mortal coil

  9. Scottspeig
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Roger Helmer had a good analogy recently on his blog, “We’re on the wrong bus” ( http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/the-prime-minister-is-on-the-wrong-bus/ )

    Until Cameron understands that the big players in the EU want closer integration, we will slowly be sucked into the vortex. He needs to wake up and realise that we cannot force our position as it is a minority one. We really need to get out. The sooner the better!!

    • Disaffected
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

      Scottspeig,

      He understands fully well. He wants to be on the the bus against public opinion and against some of his own MPs wishes. He is trying to scheme how he achieves this. he is trying to buy time but the Euro crisis timeframe is against him and the Euro project.

  10. lifelogic
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    He clearly will do nothing and say nothing of any substance as usual.

    • Disaffected
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

      Spot on in one way. He will do nothing to help the UK leave the EU, repatriate or renegotiate powers from the EU. he will scheme how he can spin it is in the national interest to stay in the EU. If he took a different stance he would have to do something about the coalition in the first instance and there is nothing happening there.

      What was Clegg’s purpose speaking to the EU dictatorship elite last week, anyone know??

    • Bazman
      Posted November 19, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      You should write him a script.

  11. Adam5x5
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    the day is fast approaching where we must decide whether to be in our out of the EU.

    the only people who do not see this seems to be the politicians.

    what seems to be happening is the EZ is prolonging the crisis to drag our economy down. this will make it easier for them to force us to join the euro.

    why can cameron not see this? i’ll be generous and say it’s because he’s too close to the problem to see the big picture…

  12. Tom William
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I wish the media, in particular the BBC, would stop talking about the “inner” and “outer” circles of the EU, which inevitably, sounds like better and worse, or first class and second class.

    Also that Cameron would accept that propping up the Euro will do as much damage as allowing the Euro to collapse, but that only the latter offers a long term economic solution (to say nothing of the politics).

  13. Tad Davison
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    I freely confess I’m perplexed. I watched the two of them – Cameron and Merkel – give their news conference, and I still can’t figure out what they’ve actually agreed, apart from establishing a bit of common ground on the situation in Syria and a few other troubles spots.

    Cameron seems to be saying a financial transaction tax is ok, as long as it’s global. From what I’ve heard from some experts thus far, that’s a tall order. What incentive would there be for other countries to enter into such an agreement, and is it likely to come any time soon, in order to have the desired effect in Europe?

    Maybe some rational argument will now emerge, which proves it to be a good and workable idea, but I need more information in order to form an opinion. At the moment, I confess, I’m struggling.

    The situation remains then, that for a monetary union to work, those involved must subscribe to a political union too, otherwise it’s dead in the water. Britain hasn’t joined the Euro, and hopefully, never will. That means a two-speed Europe unless Cameron accedes to the wishes of the others, and Britain becomes a subservient puppet. That would inevitably mean his political suicide at home, because such a move really WOULD push people over the edge!

    If I have read it right, Germany doesn’t want to bail out those countries that have got themselves into a god-awful mess, because their present constitution doesn’t allow them to print money (because of the hyper-inflation they once suffered after the first world war, until the appointment of one Adolf Hitler). Instead, they want the UK to fund the grand German-dominated EU project, via the Tobin tax, that would effectively make our banking industry less profitable, thus driving a valuable national business asset abroad. Essentially we’d be forced to fund something of which we were not a part.

    I rather think it’s about time these Europhiles stopped this deception!

    So if Germany wants this Utopian idea so badly, why don’t they amend their constitution to accommodate it?

    Stalemate. They could have saved the British tax-payer the cost of the trip.

    Tad Davison

    Cambridge

    • BobE
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

      I think DC will agree to the Tobin tax if and only if the rest of the World also do it. As this is very unlikly DC has made a clever political yes that really means no.
      Merkel is due for re-election and has no time to change much.
      It is the beginning of the end but not yet the end of the beginning.

    • Disaffected
      Posted November 19, 2011 at 10:10 am | Permalink

      Germnay knows the Uk is dependent on the City of London because it raises 30% of our tax. If they dominated this the UK would be financially sunk and they could hold the country to ransom as they have Ireland, Greece and Italy.

      Germany created the single currency and allowed other countries to act contrary to the Maastricht Treaty by running up huge debts, it should have stepped in much earlier. Now they have created the mess and allowed its continuance they should pay for it NOT the UK.

      Cameron is using Major as an advisor on foreign policy- more fool him. Major was a Europhile. Would this not be contrary to Cameron’s stated position on Europe? Cameron was an advisor to Lamont at this time of a Tory Europhile government. Major took the country into Maastricht and tried the ERM to our huge cost. Major should be left out of the equation as a failure to UK interests- but here is the thing, Cameron was part of the last Tory failure in Europe.

  14. Electro-Kevin
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    The changes within the EC/EEU/EU have been so dramatic that they’ve had to change the name several times.

    Now the transformation is going on apace.

    This really ought to be put to the British people. If Mr Cameron won’t stand up for British interests then I’d rather his party ceased to exist.

  15. uanime5
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    If we want a different relationship with the EU we should encourage the Eurozone to engage in a closer fiscal union while we remain on the sidelines with the other 9 non-Euro using EU members. Pity Cameron won’t agree as he wouldn’t have as such influence in the EU.

  16. javelin
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Excellent article I would recommend you read. A few highlights …

    – “Without QE, we estimate money supply would have shrunk by roughly 13% and the UK would already be in outright textbook deflation”

    – “Gordon Brown oversaw a pre-crisis period where three quarters of the growth in real GDP was coming from a tax windfallfunded burgeoning public sector”

    – “QE .. at .. 40% of GDP. How, we have an inflationary measure such as CPI at a near 20-year high? [5+%]” “[the] narrow definition our shopping basket [imported goods] .. owing to the weak currency and the commodities boom ”

    – “real wages have been contracting for 3 years now”

    – QE is effectively ‘money printing’ and is now on track to reach almost 20% of GDP, representing a massively inflationary dilution of the currency. On the surface it all looks very clearly inflationary. However, inflationary policies like the lowest base rate for 317 years and QE are necessary to neutralise the strongest deflationary forces we have faced in our lifetimes.”

    So QE is being used to hide massive deflation – Japanese style.

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/11/18/753971/on-misunderstanding-qe-and-uk-inflation/

  17. BobE
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    This is scary and apt. We will see.
    http://bit.ly/s9kT8j

  18. BobE
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    John, thank you for you reassuring reply on yesterdays blog. John told me, in that reply, that the coalition will not accept the Tobin tax unless the USA, China and several others also do so.
    This could be very good for us, because if Europe does it without us then large parts of the banking industry might relocate to the UK.
    This may be a chance for DC to pull off a winning move.

  19. Michael Read
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    You’re going to have a dyspeptic weekend, Mr Redwood, if you read the latest story on the Daily Mail’s website.

    The Iron Frau is vetoing your plans to have a renegotiation of the Lisbon treaty.

    Reply: Two can play the veto game. I think Euroland wants more than the Uk does. The question though is will our government try to play a strong hand?

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

      I should coco! All British governments have done thus far is capitulate! I wouldn’t trust this European-orientated shower not to throw their hand in as soon as the cards are dealt without even looking at them! It’s in their mindset. They think ‘Europe first, Britain second’, and until we get rid of them, this nation will always be at a disadvantage.

      They need to realise Britain’s future lies with exporting to expanding markets, not messing about with shrinking ones like the EU (and I give Cameron his due, he did say that last week, it’s just his sincerity I have a problem with).

      The European Union has been setting itself up for a fall all along, by enshrining into law, restrictive and uncompetitive practises based mainly on socialism. We, in Britain, fought hard on the domestic front in the 1980s, to get rid of such things in the workplace, to free-up British industry, only to submit ourselves to the same things all over again via the back door, from the EU diktat machine.

      We’re going to need a tougher regime than our present government, if we are to resist this latest and massive threat to our right to self-determination. Treaty after treaty has seen our control over our own future diminish. Scandalously, a lot of it was down to Conservative governments. It’s time the pro-Europeans in the Conservative party stopped trying to kid us they are anything other than pale-pink lefties. No true-blue would ever have sold us down the river that way. Thanks to them, and the Labour government that followed, we’re going to have one hell of a battle on our hands to stop Merkel!

      Tad Davison

      Cambridge

  20. javelin
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    There is another excellent article on ftalphaville today on the “great deleveraging”. When you combine it with the article on QE they also published you see a very alarming picture.

    http://ftalphaville.fhttp://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/11/18/753971/on-
    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/11/18/753971/on-misunderstanding-qe-and-uk-inflation/

    The key facts are these

    1) We are currently in a a period of deflation at 12%
    2) QE is adding 20% to GDP
    3) Deflation + QE inflation -> Retail inflation of 5+%

    So thats the story in the UK – now over to Europe

    1) Germany does not have large Government debt and does not have deflation
    2) EZ countries will have to deflate and/or use QE
    3) Germany deflation + QE Inflation = massive inflation

    In short the EZ is in a de/inflationary economic tug-of-war.

    The non-Germans are in a high deflationary position and the Germans in a low inflationary position. Any attempt to pull the non-Germans out of this using QE or any other fiscal stimulus WILL lead to high inflation (20%) in Germany. Given the 100% of the population isnt aware QE is propping up high-deflation I dont suppose they take this seriously.

    This worries me because it will set Germany against the rest of Europe very easily. I have now raised my view of Germany leaving the EZ to highly probable.

  21. RDM
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    From the comments made to the Press after meeting;

    Is Merkel trying to delay until Decembers’ meeting?

    Does she still hope to muddle through?

    With just enough Right Off’s and Bailout’s, the path of least resistance?

    The key question is when is she Elections!

  22. Demetrius
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps the pound could become the currency of this new monetary area as a sort of Restoration of the Sterling Area. The ECB could then relocate to Wapping and take over a disused newspaper works.

  23. Mike Stallard
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    I was working in Spain which is messy, family friendly and full of good, generous restaurants and bars. We were given a Teachers’ Freebie in Frankfurt.
    No restaurants that we could afford. I got off the train at the wrong stop in the dark and was scared stiff as I had landed by mistake in the Turkish quarter!
    I ate in stand up fast food stores.
    What was strange was to see lonely people walking up and down windswept streets. No push chairs.
    All the waiters in the Freebie spoke fluent Spanish and English, although they were German. In the Catholic Church, there were just four people at Mass on Sunday – a Pole and a couple of other people. The hymn boards were electric and lit up. In Spain people flocked to Mass and there were no numbers at all.

    I know which I loved……..

  24. Amanda
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    I read that as Mad Merkel at first glance !!

  25. Alan Wheatley
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    The idea that a satisfactory ending will be the UK in the EU on terms that suite the UK was never a realistic proposition, and as the Euro crises evolves the evidence grows that attempting such an outcome is folly.

    Once the Common Market myth was superseded by the ever-closer-union reality it was clear that the UK wished to head in a different direction to the EU principle. Attempts to be fellow travellers worked after a fashion for a while, but the longer the journey the more impractical the arrangements became. The Euro Zone now need to adjust their course, making it even more divergent from that preferred by the UK.

    Those who advocate that the way forward for the UK is to be in the EU but on new terms more to the UK’s liking must explain how such an arrangement would work. It seems to me that the terms the UK would want would be distinguished more by their being at odds than in step with terms applicable to other other EU states. Such circumstances begs the question as to what is the point of being “in” when so much of the characteristics of being a EU state would not apply.

    Should the UK attempt to negotiate a new arrangement with the EU, other member states would likely view this as a task they could well do without, especially at present, and in any event would lead to an outcome incompatible with their concept of the EU.

    If the government’s Plan A is to renegotiate I hope they are also hard at work on Plan B: the only way is OUT.

  26. Sue
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    What really peeves me, is they dismiss us so easily. Their opinion seems to be, either we like it or leave. They never seem to consider they actually do better out of us, than we do out of them! They would lose a considerable contribution and other perks such as fishing and economic migration rights if we left.

    And if things weren’t bad enough with their constant insults, Cameron is still plotting behind our backs.

    The whisper is, Merkel will give us this financial concession (pre-planned) as long as when the Euro improves (by whose opinion is debatable) that we will be sidelined into joining the Eurozone. Hence Schäuble’s remark earlier of “predicting the end of the British pound”

    We have had enough of not only the EU but also our own government plotting against us.

    We are done, our patience is spent. We want out.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

      Sue,

      That’s something which peeves me too! I was fuming earlier to learn that some of the German press had actually poured scorn on us for ‘always taking and never giving’. They have just got to be joking! The only year the UK got more out than we put in, was 1974, when the Labour government of the day took us to the brink of bankruptcy. We’ve propped the cursed place up for far too long, with the approval of successive governments of every hue.

      The EU is a by-word for waste and misappropriation, but we’ve fed this monster with our hard-earned tax-payer’s money – and we must always remember that fact, it isn’t the government’s money, it’s ours!

      The British people have been let down badly by the incompetence of those who aren’t up to speed and acquiesce to their party’s hierarchy, and downright underhandedness by those with a pro-EU agenda. I really DO think Cameron is of the latter, together with his side-kick, Osborne.

      We need real leadership, and I’m not talking about the kind we’ve had to date!

      Tad Davison

      Cambridge

  27. Robin
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    With cameron representing us fear that it will end in tears for the UK, as usual.

  28. Tedgo
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Another non event hyped up by the media.

    Considering Mr Cameron was breakfasting in Brussels and at the press conference at 1.0pm, they had little time to discuss matters.

    • Tedgo
      Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

      I think we are at a stage where the EU should have a referendum across Europe on the future of the EU. That is whether to reverse back to a simple trading block or towards closer political integration.

      • Robert Christopher
        Posted November 19, 2011 at 12:52 am | Permalink

        It will happen in Europe; but only technocrats will have a vote.

  29. Tester
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    The question, Mr Redwood, is not what Mr Cameron says, which will be the usual PR spin, but what he does. If, as is likely based on past experience he does nothing, what will or can you and like minded MPs do? A majority of the party probably shares your view of the EU to a greater or lesser extent but is powerless to have those views implemented.

    Unless you are either prepared to work to return powers in the party to the membership so that the leadership has to listen, or work to replace the leadership, then simply airing your views is pointless because they will be ignored.

    • RDM
      Posted November 22, 2011 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

      This must include the Welsh(British) membership!

      Also; Labour are using the WAG as a power base; They have no intention of using the WAG for the betterment of the Welsh people! They will change it back, if they are elected in 2015. To what, I have no idea, but they know that the British and Welsh people of Wales are best represented from within the HoP. They can’t be unified any other way!

      Regards,

      RDM, from Great Britain!!!

  30. Adam Collyer
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    If you want just a free trade agreement with this new emerging state, as I do, then really the obvious way to achieve that is for Britain to leave the EU. Then we wouldn’t need those protections you talk about, and neither would we need an adversarial relationship with the Eurozone countries.

    All this talk about “in Europe but not run by Europe” makes absolutely no sense at all. And yet it has been Conservative policy, and British government policy, for 30 years.

  31. Anne Palmer
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Please do write more Mr Redwood because I no longer understand how a Prime Minister can do what he is doing to the Country he has had the honour to Govern.

    Has he any idea how the people feel about him trying to find ways of cheating the them, his own people out of having a “say”. The people have a DUTY to fight for their Country’s freedom. It is never Heads of State that have to do that is it?

    How do you think the people feel when they see him putting the EU before his own Country and people? Yes Treaties have been ratified-but never by the people-and what parliament has done can be undone-“no parliament may bind” or so we are told often enough. When it all goes “pear shaped” as it surely will, do the people have to done Uniforms once more?

  32. Mark
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    With apologies to Flanders and Swann:

    Heil Merkel!

    This old gal, she played one,
    She played knick knack – meet at Cannes
    Riesling, Kabinett, Trockenbeer und Hock
    I’ll ignore referendum lock

    This old gal, Lisbon too,
    She told Sarko what to do
    Ireland Portugal Italy and Spain,
    She came rolling home again

    This old gal, she played drei
    Frankfurt bankers will stand by
    EU governments call me if you please
    We’ll make up our own treaties

    This old gal, she played four
    Choose EU or civil war
    She’s the president – step right into line
    Referendum – Nein! Nein! Nein!

    This old gal, she played five
    Eurozone she will contrive
    Puppet governments sing the Ode to Joy
    Greece and Italy be a good boy

    This old gal, she played six
    Deutsch und Englisch – they don’t mix
    Frankreich, Benelux, Italy and me
    That’s my Market recipe

    This old gal, sieb’n und acht,
    Nun wir haben alle Macht
    Kiss kiss Cameron ratified in Bonn
    One old gal goes on and on

    This old gal, nine and ten
    She’ll play Nick till God knows when
    Pilsner Kellerbier Dunkelbier und Bock
    This old gal thinks she’s the rock.

    • oldtimer
      Posted November 19, 2011 at 8:45 am | Permalink

      Brilliant!

  33. APL
    Posted November 19, 2011 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    JR: “I would like Mr Cameron to say the UK needs a different relationship with this emerging state.”

    Glad you have finally recognized the actualité.

    Are we, the UK in the EFTA? That treaty was signed and ratified in parallel to the treaty of Rome?

    So we can have the one without the other?

    So lets officially withdraw from the treaty of Rome and keep the free trade agreement most people originally wanted.

    Trade disputes settled.

    We could even export Ken Clarke to a villa in Tuscany to serve out his remaining days in well deservced obscurity. Given that I only despise him for what he has done, not who he is, we could even make sure there was a passably good vineyard nearby.

    Reply: I have always recognised the reality, including voting No in 1975.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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