English nationalism


English nationalism is not defined by attitudes towards other parts of the United Kingdom. Indeed most English nationalists are relaxed about belonging to the union of the UK. Most accept that it is Scotland’s call whether to stay or go from the union. The defining characteristic of English nationalism is dislike of EU power, a sense of shame or anger that a once great free country is now bossed around by the institutions of Brussels. English nationalists are not allergic to the Scottish saltire, but to the twelve stars.

It is true that English nationalists now think the deal within the UK union is unfair on England. They want as much self government for England as Scotland enjoys for Scotland within the union of the UK. They want a fair financial settlement between the differing parts of the UK union. They either want English votes for English issues, or a new English Parliament.

All of this argument is second order compared to their overriding wish to be rid of EU interference in our law making, budgets and general government. A true Scottish nationalist wants for Christmas to be free of London control. A  true English nationalist wants to be free of Brussels. Eng,lish nationalists also want their country to be allowed to exist, instead of continually wiped from the Brussels version of the map. The aim of balkanising England into unloved regions has been defeated. Now we need to rebuild England.


  1. charles wardropc
    December 9, 2012

    Agreed, but, as a Scot and UK patriot, I want my country freed, preferably completely, from the EU, whose advantages, if there ever were any, have worn wafer-thin, to nil.

    Cannot understand the anti-democratic aspects and regard our political leaders’ clinging to the EU as a lazy self-indulgence-all the kudos and feebies influencing them.

    We need a real Tory Party, so I have switched allegiance to the UKIP, ending many decades of support for the now-degraded, “Conservatives”.

    1. Bernard Juby
      December 9, 2012

      Agreed – I did this long ago.

      1. Disaffected
        December 10, 2012

        Mr Clegg is reported to be an atheist. We read his reported view on the British culture compared to the German one before the last election. He dislikes the British culture and is out to change it. The continuation of more EU, mass immigration, change to the succession of the throne and gay marriage are not accidents. They are deliberate choices to change culture. Mr Cameron lamely follows making so many U turns that no one knows what he stands for. Weak and indecisive with poor judgment appear to be his legacy of the premiership.

        Mr Clegg is out to change the British culture. Gay marriage is not in either party’s manifesto, why is it so important to change now? If it is let us have a referendum (over 600,000 people signed a petition), we had two expensive votes on AV and police commissioners that we do not need to keep 58 Lib Dem MPs happy. This is far more important than the two votes given to us. Let us have another on an in/out EU referendum. Democracy is not about minority rule, quite the reverse.

        We have heard excuses from both why promises/pledges are not fulfilled because they were not in a manifesto or coalition agreement, we have seen their dismal performance on delivering key policy issues and now they spend a great deal of time campaigning for gay marriage- no one in the cabinet should have the time.

        Budget way off any target and getting worse because no proper cut backs are being made. Welfare culture needs to change ASAP. It has so many detrimental social consequences for all public sector services. Chancellor preferred to be in the US flying in the president’s plane or in No 10 talking about Tory strategy (not sure what Tory policies exist over Lib Dems) rather than sort out the UK budget. No wonder the UK economy is in a mess and over shooting any predictions. We taxpayers are paying for his incompetence.

        Mass immigration continues to soar, no substantive action taken in two and half years. Chris Grayling accepted over 370,000 migrants workers are now on benefits. Chris Grayling was not even able to vote for his own proposal to stop prisoners having the vote because it was against the EU/ECHR that his office as Lord Chancellor requires. Why not change the rule and give the Lord Chancellor primacy over laws in this country? Does this not demonstrate quite clearly how Westminster is subordinate to the EU? Westminster has become no more than the west regional office of the EU superstate.

        Succession to throne is not equality in action. Why should they (politicians) change this tradition and culture that has existed for hundreds of years? Another short lived whim to suit a small number of MPs. Why stop with gender, why should the eldest child become the heir to the throne? Are they any better than the middle or younger child? Take the stupidity of the current false equality babble across the board. Why not elect one of the children? And should the vote be AV or first past the post? Again, politicians meddling in tradition that is none of their business.

        How about changes to MP pensions changing to CPI from RPI like everyone else; expenses still are exempt from tax like unlike everyone else, as well as the pervasive corrupt culture that still firmly remains at Westminster. To earn a £43, 000 pension like MPs would require a pot of over a million pounds which they have just capped and taxed everyone else’s pension. What energy is spent on this? Kelly report still sitting on the shelf, expense cheats back in cabinet and back in the House of Lords. Culture change is desperately required in both houses, not they way they are elected. The hereditary system appears to have produced less crooks.

        Energy Bill is incoherent and is going to cost the taxpayers a fortune. Why is the cabinet not getting to grips with it? Last week £2 billion given away to wind farm manufacturers to build wind machines in Africa. Money borrowed with interest that we taxpayers will pay for. In contrast many old age pensioners worrying about how to pay their energy bills this winter, many Uk firms considering relocating, a complete disgrace.

        The Tory led coalition are for the rich and poor. It does not pay to work, save or plan for retirement under this government. The ordinary worker in the squeezed middle will suffer and be squeezed to the extreme while having all their culture, values and beliefs changed to suit a handful of socialist democrats.

        Reply: MPs expenses are subject to the same tax laws as everyone else’s. Yes, the staff salaries and office costs I incur are not part of my income for tax pruposes, but nor does anyone else have to pay extra Income Tax themselves because they work in an office with other people helping them. MPs pension pots are also subject to the same tax rules as anyone else’s. There have been 2 hikes in MP contribution rates so far, and IPSA who sets the terms is consulting on a further wide rangigngseries of cuts or changes to the scheme.

    2. Pleb
      December 9, 2012

      I have as well, infact at the last election. I can’t see any other way.

      1. walter b
        December 9, 2012

        Me as well

      2. Christopher Ekstrom
        December 10, 2012

        Right. The “Col. Nicholson” approach of the Cast-Ironites make UKIP our best hope. Constant hand-wringing, sound & fury have only played into “President” Van Rumpy/”Col. Saito’s hand. Our domestic Quislings are literally serving a foreign power. Off with their heads! Meanwhile the English cannot & will not be less than freeborn & bred! The powers that be have degraded our Nation long enough. Despite many humiliations directed from abroad, & executed by domestic agents of foreign powers, England simply will not ever give in! PC has heaped scorn on our Tradition & yet in our hearts the bulldog/Spitfire spirit burns on!

    3. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      @Charles Wardropc.

      As a fellow Scot with similar views to yours, I could not agree more apart from your last para. I believe that UKIP will prove to be a flash in the pan and, come a General Election, will disappear from sight (but ahead of the Limp Dems who are a complete waste of space – tree huggers and ‘Croc’-wearers/anoraks/rucksack carriers the lot of them.

      I am firstly a UK citizen (married to an Englishwoman with one English born daughter and one Scots born daughter), secondly a Scottish citizen and finally – well into the rear – a citizen of Europe (but not politically). I am heartily fed up with those non-elected parasites in the European Commission laying down the laws as to how we Brits should live and conduct ‘oorsels’.

      1. Nicol Sinclair
        December 9, 2012

        We need a real Unionist Party north of the border. We don’t have one at the moment – they have been annihilated…

    4. Ian Hills
      December 9, 2012

      It was the Conservative Party which got us into this mess under Heath, so they will never get us out of it. Instead of voting for yet more treason – and therefore splitting the UKIP vote – it’s better to vote for the real McCoy.

    5. Timaction
      December 9, 2012

      A good article Mr Redwood. I would also state that to be English also creates a sense of pride as so many have been allowed to come here in the last 50 years without integrating and are now called British that it is a meaningless title. I am certainly English but not British. Never given that option deliberately by politicians and public services as it has been their intention to obliterate us without trace. It hasn’t and won’t work. I agree with the other commentators that as a previous lifetime Tory voter, NOT again, until either Cameron is removed and replaced with a true eurosceptic patriot or we are given our straight In/Out referendum before the next election. We should actually leave without a vote as we were never given one to enter the hated and stealthy EU. A promise to the future is no longer believable as Cameron can’t be trusted and only cares about minority issues such as gay marriage, fighting for removal of crosses in the workplace, foreign and EU aid, mass migration to remove English identity and the green religion. He moves further from his core vote daily to those who would never vote for him anyway!

    6. lifelogic
      December 9, 2012

      “whose advantages have worn wafer-thin, to nil” and alas far beyond that, to hugely negative “advantages”.

      1. APL
        December 10, 2012

        Lifelogic: “and alas far beyond that, to hugely negative “advantages”.”

        Not for the political class, which is why we are still in the EU.

        Viz Clegg, when his party implodes, he’ll have his nice little sinecure at the Commission. I suspect he is still in their pay – recieving his EU stipend, just like Mandelson, Patern, ‘the (words left out) Kinnocks’, …. et al, ad nauseum.

  2. Sue
    December 9, 2012

    “The defining characteristic of English nationalism is dislike of EU power, a sense of shame or anger that a once great free country is now bossed around by the institutions of Brussels”

    Quite wrong actually. This English Nationalist blames the British Government for allowing us to be bossed around by the EU. The EU and it’s consenting members have every right to exist, as long as we are not forced to be part of it.

    This English Nationalist expects her government to uphold OUR DEMOCRATIC RIGHT and give us a say on whether we remain or not.

    1. Andy Cooper
      December 29, 2012

      Damn right Sue, wonder why a British MP would have managed to avoid mentioning that they have and still do hand all power and money to the EU. They told us that EU laws were so embedded in our laws we couldnt leave the EU…rubbish.
      They told us we couldnt have an English Parliament because England would have a second tier of politicians though it is OK for the Scots and Welsh.
      They refuse to look at the Barnett formula even though the House of Lords in 2009 stated Scotland gets too much money.
      They tried to impose the breakup of England into regional areas, led by Prescott who after getting a thrashing in his first referendum cancelled all further democratic referendums on regionalisation.
      I have little concern for the crumbling EU though have nothing but contempt for the British Government and media who should hang their heads in shame for their treatment of England and the English.

  3. Peter van Leeuwen
    December 9, 2012

    This post betrays that it is not all that easy to come to terms with England’s changed fortunes. For Portugal or Holland, which had their glory times centuries ago it is easier to be “just another country”. This feeling (of hurt pride?) is one of the factors that, I think, will make a complete break easier than just a looser relationship with the EU, which would be the pragmatic outcome of the current debate. Interesting to watch how these processes run simultaneously, the reorientation within the UK and towards the EU.

    1. alan jutson
      December 9, 2012


      It is nothing to do with “Hurt Pride”

      We just want Politicians who we elect, to run our country no more no less.

      At the moment everyone else seems to have their fingers in our pie, and all we get left with is the tastless crust which is hard to digest and for which we have paid a huge sum to purchase.

      1. Nicol Sinclair
        December 9, 2012

        @Alan Jutson – four and twenty blackbirds from Brussels are baked in our pie.

    2. James Matthews
      December 9, 2012

      Completely wrong, as so often, Peter. Just another (self-governing) country is exactly what we want to be. We do not, however, want to be part of your ever-closer union.

      1. Peter van Leeuwen
        December 9, 2012

        You are free to leave, see Lisbon Treaty article 50

        1. APL
          December 10, 2012

          Peter van Leeuwen: “You are free to leave, ”

          We are being held captive by our political class, many of whom are in the pay* of the EU commission.

          *see list of names (by no means an exhaustive list) in my other post.

    3. Alte Fritz
      December 9, 2012

      English nationalism, if it exists which is debatable, has been a function of our relations with the EU and the changing landscape in Scotland and Wales.

      Foreigners still use ‘British’ and ‘English’ interchangeably and the English did so in the nineteenth century.

      When England last had to think of itself, there was no such thing as nationalism. That was the ugly offspring of the French Revolution. One reason why you find many of the contributors to this blog so puzzling is that we are having to ask ourselves, in many cases for the first time in our lives, just who and what we are.

      1. Peter van Leeuwen
        December 9, 2012

        @Alte Fritz: it is true that on the continent we tend to mix up England and Britain (just like in Britain Netherlands and Holland are often seen as the same ). If English nationalism exist, it shouldn’t be so difficult to bring about a devolved English parliament with so many MPs from England in the H.o.C.

      2. Alan Wheatley
        December 9, 2012

        Agreed; and not just who and what we are but also what we want to be.

      3. Ian Campbell
        December 10, 2012

        English nationalism was not created by the French Revolution. It flourished at the time of Edward III, was celebrated by Shakespeare, and expanded by Oliver Cromwell to encompass the whole of the British Isles (the first ‘Union’). It was disguised after 1707 by the Union (Scotland became North Britain) but many in England continued to refer to Great Britain as ‘England’ – they meant ‘Greater England. It wasn’t just foreigners in the 19th century who called Britain England. Cecil Rhodes (British imperialist): “If you are born English you have won the first prize in life”. It was only quite recently, in the 1980s, that it became politically incorrect and the position was reversed so that from the 1980s to circa 2010 England was called Britain, that is the UK comprised Britain, Scotland and Wales. (Try looking for goods in your local supermarket which proclaim, “Made in England”, “Source: England”, etc. ) The BBC has now accepted that England is not Britain but the Conservative Party, Labour Party and Lib-Dem Party all produce separate manifestos for Britain, Scotland and Wales. (I don’t know what UKIP does.) There is great reluctance in the Conservative leadership, and in other parties, even to use the word ‘England’, in case the English remember that they are English.

    4. forthurst
      December 9, 2012

      “For Portugal or Holland, which had their glory times centuries ago it is easier to be “just another country”.”

      This is an oversimplification. Our problems are not with the beliefs of the people but of the political class. The political class would then set about grooming the people to hold beliefs compatible with the actions they propose. For example, it was the belief of the political class that the British Empire was sustainable as long as it could be defended from German power. At the same time and to this day, our political class has never understood despite fighting them in two previous wars, that the USA repesented a far greater threat. The truth is that we were always unable to best the industrial power of Germany or the USA once their own industries had caught up with our early lead, and the British Empire was always doomed not to outlast that of Rome because it could never have been defended militarily.

      In order to get us into WWII, the political class had to big up the threat from Germany whilst hiding the extistential threat, overhanging the whole of Eurasia posed by the criminal entity responsible for the Red Terror and the Holodomor.
      To this day, the apologists for these mass murderers lurk in our universities and elsewhere and are now trying to destroy us by using Frankfurt School ideology as a cultural and ethnic weapon, hence ‘gay marriage’.

      It is our ruling political class which is either congenitally wicked or congenitally stupid, not the people, they are much more down to Earth.

      1. Peter van Leeuwen
        December 9, 2012

        @forthurst: I imagine that your political class are mainly representatives of the people? When people change opinion, so do the representatives at the next elections. Or not so in the UK?

        1. forthurst
          December 10, 2012

          You’re being facetious, surely?

        2. APL
          December 10, 2012

          Peter van Leeuwen: ” I imagine that your political class are mainly representatives of the people? ”

          The political class have long since abandoned the people, they only represent themselves and their party.

          1. APL
            December 11, 2012

            “they only represent themselves and their party.”

            How often does it happen that an MP who has served his or her party for a long period of time, find him or herself in disfavor with the electorate and thus out of Parliament and jobless, only to be popped back into the Lords by his chums in the Party? Or if not the Lords, a nice little earner at the UN viz Paddy Ashdown, or “we must do something for Patten, what about a couple of days a week at the BBC?”

            That is not democracy, that is graft and it is a corruption of the democratic process in the interest of the party.

        3. David Price
          December 11, 2012

          @PvL: Or perhaps not so in the EU where it seems the people’s opinions are required to change to match the EU representation, eg Ireland, Italy.

          Political and civil service classes rarely have the same opinion and priorities as the people, or do you believe the population of the Netherlands is wholely supportive of the damage being inflicted on the Greek and Spanish citizenry for EU polictical purposes?

          You are either being naive or disingenuous, certainly mischievous.

      2. Mark W
        December 10, 2012

        It’s always refreshing to see comments that are wise to the instincts of the USA and our relationship with them, or rather their relationship with us. And I say this as someone who likes much about the USA and its people, but still never let the knowledge that its a foreign power with its own interests at heart.

    5. Paul Cadier
      December 9, 2012

      Piet, you have it wrong . The English were the most enthusiastic decolonisers after the end of the Second World War. India the world’s biggest colony being hastily given independence in 1947. Decolonization by the British was a condition demanded by the USA for help to rid the Germans and Japanese from Africa and Asia. It was a price worth paying to replace dictatorship with democracy across the planet. Colonialism whether it is by the Germans or the British is undemocratic and contrary to the spirit of the Magna Carta.
      The Netherlands and France on the other hand had to be forcibly removed from Indonesia, indo-china and Algeria. …after the double humiliation of being occupied by Germany, and then (Quelle horreur) being liberated by the perfidious English and their former colonial friends. We English recognize that self government is our gift to the world and not imperialism being exercised from Brussels , or any where else.

      1. Peter van Leeuwen
        December 10, 2012

        @Paul Cadier: An intersting partial rewriting of history indeed!
        Just be proud of your pride. You’ll need it.

    6. Christopher Ekstrom
      December 10, 2012

      I suppose (the bitter experience of the Netherlands in WW II) helped your nation to meekly submit to the euro-diktat. Simply not in our book, Old Chap.

      1. Peter van Leeuwen
        December 10, 2012

        @Christopher Ekstrom: Another proud Englishman!
        (As co-founders of both the EU and the euro, we’re only “meekly” submitting to our own diktat.)

  4. lifelogic
    December 9, 2012

    “The aim of balkanising England into unloved regions has been defeated.”

    Well, perhaps, we shall see. The attempt has certainly wasted vast amounts of tax payers money and done huge harm. When Labour returns in 2015 they will doubtless use their power bases, in Scotland and Wales, to distort democracy and harm the interests of England yet again to purchase votes.

  5. Martyn
    December 9, 2012

    Thanks for your succinct summary of how I and probably a great many others think and feel about England and the EU. I recall being told years ago by a French citizen (I love touring in France and meeting its peoples) that many in positions of power Europe literally detested England because of its history of ‘interfering with European issues’ and that their unspoken aim was to ensure that England was neutered and removed from the map of Europe. Well, ‘they’ have succeeded and England’s 1000 years of economic and cultural history and the heritage that we English folk and our descendants should inherit has been written off by a succession of UK governments intent of furthering the federation of Europe led by Germany.

    As a UK citizen, proud to be English, I am outraged to be told that I am now a citizen of the EU and to have been deprived of my country’s cultural and historical identity by UK governments desperate to show that they are ‘good Europeans’. No other ethnic group in Europe has been made stateless by the removal of their country from the EU map like England and the English, which is an utterly a disgraceful state of affairs brought about with the willing agreement of our elected politicians that some might consider to have been treasonable behaviour on their part. I want my England returned to me but am voiceless and powerless to bring that about faced with the attitudes of past, current and almost certainly future governments, which is a truly depressing state of affairs.

    1. Bernard Juby
      December 9, 2012

      “I recall being told years ago by a French citizen (I love touring in France and meeting its peoples) that many in positions of power Europe literally detested England because of its history of ‘interfering with European issues’ and that their unspoken aim was to ensure that England was neutered and removed from the map of Europe”

      Interestingly enough many French want an assembly of independent sovereign States co-operating via a common market (c.f. The Hanseatic League).

      As with others, it’s the politicians who are driving this monster without the true backing of their populace.

    2. Peter van Leeuwen
      December 9, 2012

      @Martyn: which cultural and historic identity has been taken from you? You haven’t stopped being a UK citizen and with so many MPs from England in the UK parliament it shouldn’t be so difficut to have England recognized by the UK. I still see England on any map.

      1. sm
        December 9, 2012

        Ah but does parliament actually represent the public if it ever really did?
        This is the problem and it is bound up with the EU and it bears partial responsibility. These issues are of democracy and accountability and are worldwide and are not just EU issues.

      2. Robert Christopher
        December 9, 2012

        I picked up an atlas in France this summer and the country north west of France was the United Kingdom, with no sign of Scotland, Wales or England, or Northern Ireland.

        In England, we are still subjects, not citizens!

        And the problem is that MPs from English constituencies cannot vote on many Scottish, Welsh and NI matters, while MPs from non-English constituencies can and do vote on many English matters. There needs to be a correction to the problems created by Labour’s incompetence.

      3. Jagman 84
        December 9, 2012

        We used to be British Subjects. It has a different meaning to UK citizens.

      4. Martyn
        December 9, 2012

        Thanks. Please tell me which of the EU maps on which England appears? I confess that I have yet to find one and when I queried it via an EU website was told ‘the UK government (of the time) did not wish it to be so’. I thought that an honest enough answer and a condemnation of our governments but the fact remains that England has been removed from the EU map.
        There is also the issue that of the nations making up the UK Scotland, Ireland and Wales have their own assemblies or governance withing some limits but England does not. And that is what causes many English peoples to feel disenfranchised, for their is no one now to speak for us; and certainly not the current set of schoolboys running the the UK Parliament.

        1. Peter van Leeuwen
          December 10, 2012

          @Martyn: The EU deals with adminstrations, not with etnic groups or geographical names. Which is the “England-administration” that the EU should deal with? If it doesn’t exist, the EU is to blame for this.

          1. Peter van Leeuwen
            December 10, 2012

            Should be “the EU is NOT to blame for this”

    3. Peter van Leeuwen
      December 9, 2012

      @Martyn: to live as an English pensioner in France, Italy or Spain, UK citizenship wouldn’t qualify you, you’d need European citizenship

    4. uanime5
      December 9, 2012

      England, not the EU, removed England from the map by uniting with Scotland and calling itself Britain. Uniting with Ireland and changing the name to United Kingdom also didn’t help.

  6. David in Kent
    December 9, 2012

    I share the sentiment but it is sobering to realise how short a time a free and great England existed. I’d suggest it was only from about the late 17th century when we the king was no longer taking money from the French till the union with Scotland in the early 18th century.
    It feels a bit like wishing to be a relatively small country surrounded by mildly hostile neighbours; Scotland, Ireland, France. That doesn’t sound like a promising posture.

    1. uanime5
      December 9, 2012

      Unfortunately during the period you mentioned England was united with Wales. England has only encompassed England from between 927, when Athelstan conquered the last Viking kingdom (York), and 1066, when the Normans conquered England and Normandy became part of England.

      At all other times England has contained parts of France, Wales, Ireland, or Scotland.

  7. alan jutson
    December 9, 2012

    Most people were probably happy with the Union and the way it worked until devolved Parliaments were set up.

    Now we have an England that not only still pays more to those devolved areas (per head of population) but also still allows their Mp’s to vote in the House of Commons for their local interest ahead of Englands, but can in addition pick and choose those policies to support for themselves.

    We now have an unequal Union at Home, and an unequal union in Europe.

    They say Turkeys do not vote for Christmas, yet our Mps vote themselves out of control.

    Only in England could this happen.

    Time to take some control back and exclude those outsiders from Englands affairs.

    In short we need an English Parliament for Englands self interests.

    The alternative is to scrap the devolved Parliaments, and reunite under one Parliament again.

    1. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      @ Alan Jutson. I, for one and, as a Scotsman, would be more than happy for the dissolution of the Scots Pretendy Wee Parliament to be dissolved.

    December 9, 2012

    take a Brownie point take trillions !!!!!

  9. Old Albion
    December 9, 2012

    This English nationalist would accept a new UK. One in which all four nations are represented equally. With a Federal UK government controlling reserved matters.

    However, Westminster politicians from all parties (with a few notable exceptions) have quite obviously been briefed ‘don’t mention England’ and they don’t.
    When speaking in Westminster on issues that can only be considered English (the NHS being a clasic along with tuition fees) listeners would be forgiven for thinking it was the (dis)UK being discussed.
    It is this disgraceful deceit that leaves me believing all politicians are anti-English. It is the clear democratic defecit afflicting England that makes me despise those in charge.
    It is this that pushes me closer to desiring complete English independence from the rest of the laughingly named UK and the evil empire EU.
    Surely even Unionists can see, whether Scotland leaves or not. The current (dis)UK cannot go on?

  10. IndependentEngland
    December 9, 2012

    This English Nationalist wants an independentEngland! The issues of England and the EU are totally seperate!

  11. Brian Tomkinson
    December 9, 2012

    JR: “The aim of balkanising England into unloved regions has been defeated.”
    Has it really? I hope you are right but have learnt to never accept that the EU will give up on its mission. If the Scots vote to leave the UK I read that Scotland will have to re-apply to join the EU. What a pity no such action would apply to the remaining UK. Once again the Scots are given preferential treatment!

    1. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      @ Brian. I do not believe that you are correct. Were Scotland to leave the UK, that, in my view, would result in the legal dissolution of the UK as such. That would mean that England would also have to apply (or not as the case may be) to rejoin the EU. There you go – answer to your maiden’s prayer – no need to apply to join.

      1. Denis Cooper
        December 10, 2012

        There are a number of misconceptions about this.

        The first is that a “yes” vote in the referendum would immediately make Scotland an independent sovereign state, and that consequently the UK would instantly cease to exist as a party to the EU treaties and some or all of its fragments would accidentally fall out of the EU.

        The second is that Cameron and Salmond and other pro-EU politicians across Europe would just allow this to happen, as it were standing back watching bemused as these unexpected events unfolded.

        The reality is that a “yes” vote in the referendum would only signal the start of complex negotiations to agree new arrangements between Scotland and the rest of the UK, arrangements which when agreed would then have to be formalised through UK and probably also Scottish legislation, with an agreed target date and exact time for final separation set maybe two years in the future.

        Alongside those negotiations for the new arrangements between Scotland and the rest of the UK there would also have to be negotiations for the future arrangements between those two newly separated sovereign states and other sovereign states around the world, in particular the sovereign member states of the EU.

        As I’ve said before, my bet is that the pro-EU Cameron and the pro-EU Salmond would collaborate very closely to try to ensure that at the instant of final separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK there would be a seamless transition from the UK being one EU member state to Scotland and the rest of the UK being two separate EU member states.

        Neither would accidentally drop out of the EU, and so neither would have to reapply for EU membership, because the necessary EU treaty changes would be agreed and ratified in good time and would be ready and waiting to come into legal force at the instant of final separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK without any hiatus.

        However, as I’ve also said before, some other EU member states might choose to try to extract a price for their agreement to the necessary EU treaty changes, and that price could be levied not just on Scotland but also on the rest of the UK.

    2. sm
      December 9, 2012

      Follow the money – they are hardly likely to make it easy for a significant net funding country to leave – more likely they will try and lean the other way. I would suspect the EU as being as innovative as bankers in extracting what they want.

    3. Alan Wheatley
      December 9, 2012

      Nice one, Brian!

  12. Pete
    December 9, 2012

    “Most accept that it is Scotland’s call whether to stay or go from the union.”

    An odd sort of union when only one party has the choice to continue with it or not. Surely England should have a vote on an issue which affects us just as much? Oh, sorry, I forgot, we only get a vote on anything decisive if our masters are sure we’ll vote the right way. General elections are allowed because you get the same policies from Labour and Conservative just dressed up in different frocks.

    1. IndependentEngland
      December 9, 2012

      It is also England’s call whether to stay or go from the union. I believe that if Scotland votes NO in 2014 and the English Question continues not to be asked by Unionist politicians then calls for England to leave the union will become louder.

    2. Andrew Johnson
      December 9, 2012

      100% agree – Your post qualifies you to receive a million postal votes in the next election!!

  13. M Davis
    December 9, 2012

    For some reason (probably due to being brainwashed), when filling out official forms, I seem always to put British in the Nationality space. From now on I will be putting English.

    1. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      Until the split of the UK, your nationality is BRITISH like mine.

      1. David Kelly
        December 10, 2012

        No, the word “British” applies to our citizenship, which is not the same thing as nationality. I have English nationality, which I’m proud of, and British citizenship, which I hope will be changed to English citizenship one day.

    2. walter b
      December 9, 2012

      You try to get in USA and put English on the form,you will be told to put UK
      or no entry.

      1. Phil P
        December 11, 2012

        Wrong i have never put British on a form including many vists to the states maybe its because my passport has english on it aswell and driving licence

  14. They Work for Us
    December 9, 2012

    As you say John – there is nothing wrong with being an English Nationalist and wanting any Govt. and stand up for England and its interests unmoved by political correctness and a desire to “be thought a good fellow” and childishly seek praise and approval internationally.

    Blair wanted to be liked and praised in Europe when he gave away part of our EU rebate and accepted various EU Treaty Changes that gave away UK power (or vetos) to the EU. Heath was similarly culpable when he deceived the electorate over EU entry. He based in the praise of being a good European.

    We are often foolish in trade matters. We look down from the moral high ground as we lose trade deals to other countries who are more willing to adopt whatever local practice are required to get the deal. They tell us we are good fellows while quietly laughing at us as their country’s jobs and exports are safeguarded.

    It is inconceivable that France or Germany would say equip their army with British vehicles or buy foreign trains and rolling stock. Strangely enough they always seem to be able to find a reason to buy their own country’s products ( EU competition law?).

    An additional Christmas wish is that Prime Ministers (and Govts) should be more humble. They they should operate on the basis that the electorate has made them the temporary, yes temporary, guardians of the Nation and its assets. This is not a licence to do whatever they like, change whatever they like, just because they happen to believe in it (even if the electorate don’t). We want no more of “We are the masters now” which has been the viewpoint of more than one Labour administration as they came to power and ruined the country or left long term chaos behind them as they ignored advice on the likely untintended consequences .

  15. Mike Stallard
    December 9, 2012

    Actually, the more I study History, the more I want my little country to stay together. I have hardly been to Scotland or Ireland or, for that matter, Wales. But it is still part of the land which I love and which shares my history and background.

    Mr Salmond is silly: he stands to ruin a going concern. The EU may well not be as generous with his independent little bunch of mountains as we are. James I was right: together we make up the United Kingdom. The Irish nationalists, too, are right. Their flag is ours. Have some balls man!

    1. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      @ Mike Stallard. Oh how I agree with your comments.

  16. Iain Moore
    December 9, 2012

    “Now we need to rebuild England.”


    The Conservative manifesto at the last election, all be it an after thought, stated….

    Labour have refused to address the so-called ‘West Lothian Question’: the unfair situation of Scottish MPs voting on matters which are devolved. a Conservative government will introduce new rules so that legislation referring specifically to England, or to England and Wales, cannot be enacted without the consent of MPs representing constituencies of those countries.

    As far as I can gather Cameron has kicked this undertaking into the long grass, he has made up a committee of people to look at this who have little or no interest for English representation, in fact he has picked some of the most disinterested to look at this, and that is being generous, for he has picked EU fanatics like Glegg and Clarke to sit on the committee, and as far as I can gather this committee has NEVER yet sat and considered anything yet.

    So while Cameron ignores the constitutional equality of 50 million people, who he promised to do something about at the last election, in fact make matters worse by handing more constitutional goodies to the Scots with Devo Max, he wastes Parliamentary time on Gay marriage, an agenda driven by a few gay activists, and for something he has no electoral mandate at all.

    1. JoolsB
      December 9, 2012

      And to add to the insult not only does the West Lothian Commissions’ terms of reference omit to mention England by name:-

      “To consider how the House of Commons might deal with legislation which affects only part of the United Kingdom, following the devolution of certain legislative powers to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the National Assembly for Wales”

      but the remit does not even allow for an English Parliament to be considered. Even if it recommends EVEL (which is not enough) Clegg won’t allow it to report back this side of 2015 because why would we need the Lib Dems if it did and we all know if Labour get in in 2015, they will stop at nothing to balkanise England in their quest to maintain their power base. Cameron and the ‘Conservatives’ have stood by and done nothing. They deserve our contempt.

  17. Alan Wheatley
    December 9, 2012

    An interesting conversation a few days ago led to me thinking afresh as to what it is to be English.

    I was born in Kent, in England, in the UK. But I think of myself as primarily British: partly because “United Kingdomer” sounds like a horrible abuse of the English Language, partly because of I do not really know what to make of the “Irish question”, but I guess primarily because I grew up with the idea of being British.

    In terms of identity “Kent” never featured strongly; even now I can never remember whether I am a Man-of-Kent or a Kentish-Man (depends on which side of the Medway you were born). And county identity is not helped by successive governments obsessively and unnecessarily fiddling with county boundaries.

    So my nationality is British, and I am also English.

    But, other than being born in England, how do you become English?

    You can become British by going through the formal procedure for nationalisation. But no such procedure applies to becoming English. My conversationalist was born in Africa of Indian parents and is a nationalised British citizen who has lived in England most of his life. He is proud to be British, but is adamantly not English, not because he doesn’t want to be but because he thinks he can’t be. Is this true?

    It is only recently that being English has mattered. Until then “English” and “British” were frequently used as similes, and many foreigners still do. With the rise of English Nationalism these issues are becoming ever more important. And as far as I can tell the Scotts do not have the answer either!

    1. Duyfken
      December 9, 2012

      Yes, Alan, it’s only those who are English by birth who are English, the rest of us, including me from the Antipodes, have to settle for being British. Were that it were otherwise.

      1. Duyfken
        December 9, 2012

        Would that it were otherwise.

      2. David Kelly
        December 10, 2012

        It isn’t a person’s birthplace that determines Englishness or otherwise. It’s their mindset. If you come to live in England, but set out from day one not o assimilate or integrate with us English, it would be better for all concerned if you find yourself another country to live in. Mind you, the biggest offenders here are the white middle class ‘liberals’ whose families have probably been here in England longer than my family. How I’d love to rid the entire planet of Guardianistas and their ilk.

        1. Andy Cooper
          December 30, 2012

          A persons mindset, what rubbish.
          Nationalists like myself will always be around to point a finger and tell the emporer he isnt wearing any clothes!

      3. IndependentEngland
        December 10, 2012

        It would be in an independent England Dufyken. It would be possible to apply for naturalisation as an English citizen, hold an English passport and vote for an English government.

    2. Manof Kent
      December 9, 2012


      The Mnemonic is MOKE – Man of Kent East of the Medway.

      A few years ago Lasith Malinga ,the Sri Lankan bowler ,played for Kent .

      In the supporters tent he was deemed to be a Man of Kent by virtue of having been born east of the Medway ,albeit by 9000 miles or so.

      I now live east of the Medway ,was born in London ,raised in N.Devon during the war,went to live in Scotland in ’47 where school was an interesting change .

      We studied mostly Scottish rather than British History.

      ‘…and then the wicked Queen Elizabeth put to death our Mary Queen of Scots’
      and, directed at me
      ‘why would you want to call yourself Brian when you have a perfectly good first name James ? Remember James I of England but VI th of Scotland’

      I came away as an English nationalist, initially intent on rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall,
      but thankful for an excellent co-ed High School education ;well ahead at that time of the Devon equivalent.

      I remain an English nationalist and wish the Scots well if that is what they want.

      The problem is that now Home Rule for Scotland does not mean Home Rule for England .

    3. Independent England
      December 9, 2012

      The Scottish do have the answer. A YES vote in 2014. I fear they will bottle out.

      1. Nicol Sinclair
        December 9, 2012

        And I hope for a ‘No’ vote.

      2. Christopher Ekstrom
        December 10, 2012

        Alex should dream up a way to ban drink sales for (at least) two weeks prior to the referendum. Not a drop would be left days before the vote allowing the natives to make the polls. Perhaps run BRAVEHEART 24/7 on all local channels (whilst jamming the rest). Hand out tins of Tennants at the polls: Birth of a Nation!

  18. Denis Cooper
    December 9, 2012

    Surely a true Scottish nationalist wants Scotland to be free of Brussels just as much as a true English nationalist wants England out from under its thumb?

    There’s a myth circulated by certain elements in England, above all by certain unpatriotic and self-seeking Tory supporters in the south east, to the effect that the Scots are much more enthusiastic about the EU, and even that somehow it is the Scots who are keeping the English imprisoned within the EU against their will.

    Exactly how that would work when 82% of MPs are elected in England is not clear, but it’s good to have somebody else to blame for the consistent failure of the English to elect more patriotic MPs when they have the chance; but in any case where is the evidence to support the postulate that attitudes towards the EU among the general population are more favourable north of the border?

    What is certain is that neither Cameron nor Salmond have any desire to check with the people whether they really want to be part of the unremitting, unlimited and largely uncontrollable process of “ever closer union” mandated by the EU treaties, and they will both do whatever they can to avoid having to ask that fundamental question directly in a referendum.

    So my bet is that if the Scots voted “yes” in the independence referendum then Cameron and Salmond would collaborate very closely to make sure that when the final separation occurred maybe a couple of years later there would be a seamless transition from the present UK being one EU member state to Scotland and the rest of the UK being two separate EU member states.

    But that would require changes to the EU treaties, and every other EU member state would have a veto over the necessary treaty changes, and some countries might decide to demand a price for their agreement; and moreover that price might be levied not just on Scotland, but on the rest of the UK as well.

    1. Leslie Singleton
      December 10, 2012

      Denis–I think you have it wrong on Scottish desires. Admittedly one hasn’t tended to hear so much about it of late, perhaps following some of the delights of the euro turning out to be horrors, but in my discussions with Scotsmen, what many seem to like is their imagined ideal of “Scotland in Europe” (tacitly including the idea of the centre subsidising the periphery). I as an Englishman personally hate anything and everything to do with the EU but it is not difficult to imagine that a mixture of Anglophobia (whether justified or not), the Auld Alliance (Don’t they speak French in Brussels?) and a genuine liking for the EU concept by many Scots (just as in England one has to admit) would accumulate a few votes for secession but notwithstanding all that I think the Scots will vote No and overwhelmingly so.

      1. Denis Cooper
        December 10, 2012

        That isn’t what was found in this study:



        Page 5:

        “There is very little difference between Scotland and the UK as a whole on attitudes to Europe.”

        Page 7:

        “It is often believed that within the UK, Scotland is one of the most pro-European areas. The evidence within this review suggests that on the whole this is not the case, with people in Scotland reporting broadly similar Eurosceptic views as people in Britain as a whole.”

  19. Denis Cooper
    December 9, 2012

    How about holding a referendum in England on whether the English want a devolved parliament for the whole of England, on the same day as the Scots vote on whether they want more than devolution within the sovereign UK and instead want Scotland to become an independent sovereign state?

    1. JoolsB
      December 9, 2012

      Not gonna happen Denis. Just as Scottish, Welsh & NI MPs would now be virtually redundant if they couldn’t meddle in English only matters, our ‘Unionist’ MPs with English seats worry more about their own survival than what’s right and fair for England and their constituents. They won’t ask England if it wants it’s own parliament because they are afraid we might say yes and that will be the wrong answer.

      1. IndependentEngland
        December 10, 2012

        There’s no might about it JoolsB. An English Parliament referendum would result in a resounding YES. Likewise an English independence referendum.

    2. Manof Kent
      December 9, 2012

      Great idea -pl see my reply above.

  20. Acorn
    December 9, 2012

    Yes, I would like an England with a parliament of its own. I would want a federal structure for the UK as well. Because, the question of liking the EU less than Scotland; Wales and Northern Island; is; frankly, a bit of a tough one for me. I see the new England as a blend of Singapore; Hong Kong and the Cayman Islands.

    BTW. We haven’t really got rid of Regions. OK officially yes but, they are still needed for EU election and dispersing EU Structural Funds and for Eurostats. Greater London is still an EU region with a Regional Assembly. The Regional Chambers were replaced by Local Authority Leaders’ Boards; yes, they were voluntary but voluntary plus expenses equals essential in local government.

    Unfortunately the best idea Labour had with “City Regions” based on travel-to-work-areas, the coalition did away with, (usual change of government, not made here syndrome). We got Liverpool; Sheffield and Leeds City Regions and that’s all. While I think of it, you did away with the Future Jobs Fund for the same reason. Even the bureaucrats at the DWP had to admit that one was actually working, and at reasonable cost.

    Anyway, Local Enterprise Partnerships replaced eight of the nine English regions with circa 39 LEPAs. They have a national network lobby group already and do a nice line in paperwork if nothing else. It actually contains some interesting data and is worth a read. http://www.lepnetwork.org.uk/assets/files/FINAL%20LEP%20Network%20Annual%20Report%20into%20LEP%20Area%20Economies%202012.pdf .

  21. Alan Wheatley
    December 9, 2012

    “Most accept that it is Scotland’s call whether to stay or go from the union”. I agree.

    But it is not Scotland’s call as to the terms. Indeed, there rest of the UK should be making it clear to Scotland that they will need to pay compensation for the cost of untangling 300 years of integration. Further, if Scotland thinks so little of the UK that it wants to leave, why should the rest of the UK care about the fate of an independent Scotland.

    1. Keith
      December 9, 2012

      & the Scots should be liable for all English monies paid to bail out the massive Scottish banks in 2008

    2. Manof Kent
      December 9, 2012


    3. forthurst
      December 9, 2012

      There are also the gigantuan debts run up by RBS and BoS.

    4. Nicol Sinclair
      December 9, 2012

      @ Alan Wheatley. And, I fear, that compensation + interest might be demanded for bailing us out of the Darien Disaster – the indirect catalyst for the formation of the Union of 1707. 🙁

      1. Leslie Singleton
        December 10, 2012

        Nicol–Yes, but it was hardly just a catalyst nor was there anything indirect about it.

  22. Alan Wheatley
    December 9, 2012

    “… most English nationalists are relaxed about belonging to the union of the UK”. Is this true?

    I would have said that most English are relaxed about belonging to the union of the UK, but I would not call these people “English nationalists”. At least not in the sense of an English Nationalist being a person who puts their nationality as English rather than British.

    1. Manof Kent
      December 9, 2012

      When filling in application forms 50 years or so ago now you ticked the appropriate box viz Brit /Eng ; Brit/Scot; Brit /Welsh etc.

      It now seems to be based on colour and gender eg Brit /White; Brit/ Afro……Asian,transgender/gay /lesbian etc.

      It seems to me that the earlier model was much more inclusive than today’s.

  23. Alan Wheatley
    December 9, 2012

    “A true English nationalist wants to be free of Brussels”. Where as, it seems from what they say, a true Scottish nationalist wants to be tied to Brussels! A good example of jumping out of the warm frying pan into the roaring fire.

    Funny old World.

  24. Alison
    December 9, 2012

    Can’t help feeling that there’s one facet of English nationalism that’s missing here.

  25. Alan Wheatley
    December 9, 2012

    “Now we need to rebuild England”. Is this an acceptance that there is no future for the UK?

    I would say we need to rebuild the UK. A thriving and fairly governed UK will have people wanting to join rather than leave.

  26. JoolsB
    December 9, 2012

    Why can’t we want both? Yes we want out of Europe but that has nothing to do with the growing number of people in England who are sick to the back teeth of having no-one, especially not Cameron or the pary calling themselves ‘Tories’, to stand up for our interests when successive UK Governments continue to discriminate against us. We are raging that only our kids will spend most of their working lives with up to £100,000 debts hanging over them if they dare to go to university whilst my taxes and theirs in future will continue to fund free or heavily subsised tuition for the rest of the UK. We are disgusted that this ‘Conservative’ led coalition talks about social care without once uttering the word England knowing full well that it is only England’s elderly who will have to hand over everything they have ever worked for should they need care. Salmond courtesy of the skewed Barnett Formula offers free tuition fees to everyone in Europe except ENGLAND and what is the UK Government, the only one England is allowed, doing about this blatant discrimination? Absolutely nothing. This is why England must be given a voice, why it too needs it’s own First Minister, it’s own parliament with MPs standing up for our interests in the same way Salmond stands up for Scotland because until it does, this discrimination against our young and our elderly will continue.

    When I campaigned on the doorsteps in 2010, I took it for granted that a Conservative Government, put there by England, would put an end to Labour’s 13 years of post devolution discrimination – how wrong was I? If anything it has got worse. In our desperation to get rid of Labour, we ignored the signs. Not once in opposition did Cameron or any of you stand up and question the self annointed Laird of England, Brown on his right to dictate English only policy nor the right of MPs with Scottish seats such as Reid and Alexander to become Secretaries of State for English only portfolios on Health and Transport. England’s young only have tuition fees in the first place thanks to it being carried by Scottish Labour MPs and yet not once, do any of you even say the word England, let alone stand up for it when you know full well most of what the UK Government, including it’s 119 Celtic MPs, does only applies to England.

    The Tories won most votes in England in 2005 and we ended up being governed by Labour. In 2010 Cameron won a 62 seat majority in England and yet we are governed by a coalition. In 2015, England might still vote Tory but because England’s wishes are overturned by the rest of the UK despite them having their own governments, England could end up being governed by Labour once again against it’s wishes. Unaccountable Labour Scottish & Welsh MPs will once again dictate policy in England which will not affect their constituents and once again the Tories in opposition no doubt will not murmur a word of protest.

    If Cameron and the Tories want to know how to gain a healthy majority in 2015, yes they need to give us an in/out referendum on the EU but also John, instead of you and your fellow Tory MPs with English seats sticking your heads in the sand and pretending the English Question does not exisit, it’s about time you all started doing something you haven’t done so far and start addressing it and that doesn’t mean EVEL. Start demanding equality for your consituents both politically and financially and that means an ENGLISH PARLIAMENT but you won’t because Cameron’s ‘Tories’ have proved themselves just as anti-English as Labour. No wonder we are turning to UKIP.

    1. Iain Moore
      December 9, 2012

      Well said, but I think it was abundantly clear that Cameron would do diddley squat about sorting out the racist anti English constitution Labour put in place. As you say he never once challenged the self anointed Laird of England about his mandate to rule England, not once did he raise the West Lothian question, he never asked one question about it in PMQ’s. Worse Cameron rather than taking up the cause of a people being constitutionally oppressed, he said me too, for he boasted about all the Scottish blood flowing through his veins and went to Glasgow to abuse us and call us ‘Sour faced little Englanders’ something he should never be allowed to forget and never forgiven.

  27. radsatser
    December 9, 2012

    “English nationalism is not defined by attitudes towards other parts of the United Kingdom. ”

    I’m not so sure of this anymore!

    Spending my working life travelling around Northern England and Scotland upto the industrial belt, there has been a seed change in attitudes to our relationship in recent years.

    There is a real venom that emanates from the Scottish towards the English, not the the rest of the UK, the English, that anybody who travels regularly to Scotland now experiences with a vengeance, something that 20 years ago was the preserve of the kilt wearing, Culloden worshipper.

    This is compounded by continuing near criminal abuse exploiting England through the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian question. Yes the destruction of the concept of England is inextricably linked with EU regionalism, it is therefore inevitable that the EU is the main enemy to stop this process, but English nationalism has also been woken up by the Scottish mafia that runs Westminster government whoever is in power, protecting Scotland at the expense of the English , such as the fiddled Aircraft Carrier contracts.

  28. The PrangWizard
    December 9, 2012

    Thank you Mr Redwood. There are many aspects to cover under the subject and I am grateful for the opportunity you have offered. I am pleased to call myself an English nationalist, we will not be cowed by the many who imply and state this to be something unworthy. It is an honourable thing to be.

    Yes, we must rebuild England. I have said many times on your pages and elsewhere that the English must have have a true parliament for England, and I hope you may declare for one at some stage, English Votes…. will not work.

    We don’t define ourselves as English nationalists by being anti-EU or anti Scottish; we are English and the issue of our identity and the right to be recocognised is strong enough to stand alone. We are fighting injustice in our our own country.

    As for rebuilding England, there is an aspect of identity (of many) which is not often considered, and that concerns cultural institutions. Take, in England, for example, the ‘National’ Gallery, Portrait Gallery, Archives, Trust etc.. But which Nation? These are really British Instututions, not English. They were created long ago.

    Scotland has its ‘National Galleries of Scotland’, ‘National Libraries of Scotland’ etc… National identity is in the titles, but what about England? The websites of the Scottish Libraries refer to users being able to visit ‘to learn about the Scots and Scotland’. In London there is the British Library. Where do people go to learn about England and the English? Where are the Institutions of England?

    There needs to be change here and in many other similar areas, major change. None of this can be ignored. Change is coming.

  29. Martin Ryder
    December 9, 2012

    As an Englishman, as well as a Briton, I totally agree with you.

    As far as I am concerned there is already an English Parliament, you sit in it. The British Parliament is the English Parliament plus MPs from Scottish, Welsh and North Irish constituencies.

    When English matters are being considered by Parliament then the MPs for Scottish, Welsh and Irish constituencies should stay away. They should only attend when the matters for discussion (EG: defence, foreign affairs, economic affairs) apply to all of the United Kingdom.

    There is a problem if the Prime Minister does not represent an English constituency but a senior cabinet officer who does represent an English constituency could also be First Minister for England. Likewise the secretaries of state that represent non-English constituencies should appoint a deputy for English affairs.

    1. David John Wilson
      December 9, 2012

      We need positive action on this front. For example all foriegn MPs should go home to their constituencies on Wednesday evenings and aprliament devote itself to English matters om Thursdays and Fridays.

      This would also allow the salaries of Scottish MPs to be reduced by 40% thus saving money. In fact there is a strong case for the members of the foriegn parliaments to serve in Westminster for three days a week and then go back to their own parliaments for the rest of the week.

      1. Denis Cooper
        December 9, 2012

        They aren’t “foreign”, yet.

        An Australian MP elected in New South Wales is not “foreign” to an Australian MP elected in Victoria or Queensland.

        1. David Kelly
          December 10, 2012

          You’ve overlooked the fact that the “United” Kingdom is a state consisting of multiple nations, while Australia is a nation of multiple states. Just because we all have the same citizenship, doesn’t make us all the same nationality. It’s also worth remembering the utter hatred that MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have for us English (although MPs from England are just as bad, I’m sorry to say). MPs from one Australian state would never have that hatred for fellow Australians from other states.

          For me, foreigners begin at England’s borders, and I’m mightily fed up with foreigners lording it over me.

      2. Mick Anderson
        December 9, 2012

        DJW – Even better to have no Welsh or Scots MPs with seats in Westminister. Rather, let the politicians of their respective local talking shops each select a plenipotentiary to represent them in SW1, to be given a seat at the Cabinet table. At the same time, abolish the Welsh and Scottish offices.

        It removes a thick layer of expensive bureaucratic replication, makes some small use of the devolution that has been foisted on the English, and resolves the West Lothian question.

        1. uanime5
          December 10, 2012

          That won’t work because this will result in English MPs deciding on things that effect the whole of the UK. I don’t imagine the people who don’t live in England will support that.

          This would only work if the plenipotentiary could veto any law that would effect the UK. Although giving them a veto will create other problems.

    2. The PrangWizard
      December 9, 2012

      In response to ‘Martyn Ryder’ and ‘David John Wilson’, I will assume you are each making the points seriously, rather than flippantly: I admit I do find it a little hard to tell but I have read similar views expressed elsewhere.

      We should regard each of the nations as having equal importance, even though England is by far the largest of course. It could be thought that your views about allowing Scottish and other nations MP’s to ‘join in’ the present parliament in Westminster is patronising to the smaller nations, and demeaning to the English; that is we are too big to need our own parliament. If you give equal weight to each nation regardless of size, then each should have its own right to self determination. It is the British, through British Institutions who dominate us all.

      England can only speak for itself through a true English parliament and English Institutions.

  30. Richard1
    December 9, 2012

    An independent Scotland, with its huge state / GDP ratio, would probably be a net beneficiary of EU largesse. It could be therefore that Scots will vote for independence from the UK in order to stay in the EU, if they think English voters would be likely to take the UK out, and to insist on a fairer deal for English taxpayers within the UK.

  31. Dee
    December 9, 2012

    I can’t argue with much of that. A couple of things I would disagree with, such as your use of “true English nationalist.” It implies that anyone who disagrees cannot be a true nationalst. We hear enough of the use of that sort of term by the religious arguing amongst themselves. It implies that a conversation is not necessary, becuase you are right and they are wrong. Let’s not do that with the future of England. All sides are welcome to their opinions, surely.

    To wrap up, it is most certainly necessary for a dialogue on the future of England. If only our pesky British rulers would allow it.

  32. David John Wilson
    December 9, 2012

    What a biased statement. Most English nationalists that I know (dislike) the Scots, dislike the Welsh but are totally indifferent to Europe except the Germans. You should try going to a few internationals at Wembley.

    If you want to talk politics the situation is much the same. One of the biggest gripes amongst the English is that they are not being given a vote in the referendum about devolution from the Scots. Far too many of our English MPs spend far too much time worrying about relationships with Europe when they should be concentrating on the economic advantages that could be gained by changing our relationship with Scotland.

    It is imperative that over the next few years we bring our warship building back to England and reduce the stranglehold that the Scots have over our defence. We also need to take action to prevent them having such a strong hold on the energy provision to England.

    1. Denis Cooper
      December 9, 2012

      What “referendum about devolution from the Scots”?

  33. Nick
    December 9, 2012

    It’s very simple. They are pissed off with having to pay for scroungers.

  34. JoolsB
    December 9, 2012

    John, You and your fellow MPs must get lots of comments like above in your postbag. Is there any chance of any of you plucking up some courage and getting together and having a word with our ‘there’s Scottish blood running through these veins’ PM who ‘doesn’t want to be PM of England’ and remind him where his support will come from in 2015 and that it isn’t Scotland no matter how much he woos Salmond at England’s expense. Could you please tell him we ‘sour little Englanders’ are getting fed up of the discriminatory manner in which we still continue to be treated by him and this Government and if he doesn’t want to be PM of England (which he is in all but name) then it can easily be arranged to replace him with one Nigel Farage who is willing to stand up for England and address the English Question. It’s becoming more obvious by the day that Cameron would rather lose the election than stand up for the people of England and offer them the same self-determination which the rest of the UK enjoys and which he is so happy to preach the rest of the world on.

  35. The PrangWizard
    December 9, 2012

    And then there is the flag, symbols are very important, and we the English have neglected ours.

    Many, casually and carelessly, and sometimes out of fear, think of and fly the Union flag as the flag of England, but this it is emphatically not. In England we should honour the Flag of St George as the Scots honour the Saltire in Scotland. By all means fly the Union flag over British Institutions such as the British parliament in Westminster.

    But in England we should fly the Flag of St George over England’s public institutions, Universities, Galleries and Councils, as well as over private buildings, hotels and the like – and resist those who make political and ideological criticisms.

    It is our flag, emphatically and distinctly English.

  36. Pleb
    December 9, 2012

    Wonderful sentiments John. I fully concure.

  37. forthurst
    December 9, 2012

    The parliaments of Scotland and Wales and the demands for one for England are as a consequence of the centralisation of adminstrative matters which historically resided with the counties themselves. The concept of taking away the rights of local people to decide matters affecting them only, by centralising all government in Westminster and then returning them via a new tier of government is wasteful. If Westminster politicians did not decide on educational or health matters, there would be no argument about Scots voting on issues not affecting themselves.

    When it was the counties calling the shots locally, what gave the English, Scots, and Welsh their identities? It was simply their sense of belonging to different ethnic groups with different historical and cultural traditions. These differences were to a significant extent perceived rather than inherent.

  38. Muddyman
    December 9, 2012

    I would love to believe that regional break up was a dead duck, but until we grasp the ducks neck and kill it off by leaving the EU, the canard lives!.

  39. R S N Lane
    December 9, 2012

    I find I generaly agree with much of what Mr Redwood writes, but I think he is wrong to put disassociation from Europe before more self-government for England within the union. As a tory voter for many years (over 50) I now find I despair of the party.
    Mr Cameron seems to think same-sex marriage is one of the more urgent needs for the country.
    I do not see the present leadership of the party ever achieving a majority govenment in the UK – and on recent performance I begin to wonder if I want them to!
    To wander on a bit more – I think much of our nation’s malaise is down to poor performance by the civil service. When it comes to EU rules, the British civil service seems to delight in making the rules gold plated – whereas one has the impression that those of other states are more likely to err in the other direction.

    I am rather glad I am old.

  40. Independent England
    December 9, 2012

    ‘most English nationalists are relaxed about belonging to the union of the UK. …….The defining characteristic of English nationalism is dislike of EU power’

    Do you have any particular evidence for that assertion John or is it a Lord ‘there is no appetite for an English Parliament’ Faulkner? I like that. I think in future I’ll call all unevidenced statements about what we English do and don’t want Lord Faulkners’!!

  41. Independent England
    December 9, 2012

    Apologies. Lord Faulkner should read Lord Falconer not that it makes much difference because both are against an English Parliament.

  42. Barbara
    December 9, 2012

    Well Mr R, I can tell you I for one will never accept the rule of Brussels, or their idea of the regions, we are one nation, British. May I remind those over the channel, they have been glad of the so called British several times when their freedom was threatened, and we’ve answered their call with the ultimate sacrifice. Now we see the knife ready to plunge in our backs, while half of UK’s youth lie in France’s, Belgum, Holland’s, fields. It was a great sacrifice, we find hard to forget, and why should we, it is they who should be reminded as they now surrender that hard fought freedom to unelected Germanic rule.
    We are not so foolish, but the next fight they do alone, we won’t be fooled again.
    Our problem now is getting our elected MPs to do as WE wish and exict the EU. Of course, it may take time, but before long we will elect a party that will extract us from this millstone, so it may not be that far off. I await with bated breath, and my flag is ready to fly.

  43. i albion
    December 9, 2012

    My flag is ready to fly too, the English Flag of St George which flies from my Flag pole every St Georges Day.

  44. Glenn Vaughan
    December 9, 2012

    Firstly, never mind the Scots having a referendum, how about the rest of us voting in a referendum to determine whether or not we want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom?

    Secondly, as a Welshman resident in Wales, I would love to be free of the Welsh Assembly including its governor general, euphemistically described as “First Minister”.

  45. Leslie Singleton
    December 9, 2012

    Is it true as the Sunday Telegraph says that the EU might try to strip us of the ability to conduct deals denominated in euros? If it is, does this mean that the euro would become non tradeable presumably with exchange controls? Have they no knowledge of other offshore currency markets principally dollars in London? Exactly how do these madmen propose to achieve this? Is it just us that won’t be able to use the euro or is say America (or Scotland if they decide to secede) to be told the same? We have gone to war over much less.

  46. MajorFrustration
    December 9, 2012

    Scotland wishes to become independent and also remain in the EU – tricky. Well suppose England “took a bullet” for Scotland. England could declare UDI and leave the EU leaving Scotland still within the EU. Kills two birds with one stone – we get rid of the (word left out) Scots and England leaves the EU and all those ship building jobs stay in England and all the duff banks stay in Scotland – everybody wins. You know it makes sense

  47. Mark B
    December 9, 2012

    Circles with-in circles, wheels with-in wheels.

    It does not matter whether we are ruled from Brussels, Westminster or Edinburgh, ‘we the people’ are so far from the levers of power and influence, that politics and democracy is seriously in danger of becoming spectator sports. ie We may watch, but are actively prevented from participating. Unlike say, the Swiss !!!

    So, as for this view of ‘English Nationalists’ are somehow all EU haters, I would say that, that is a bit of a slur.

    I am English, but I am not a Nationalist. I am a patriot ! I love my country and do not overly concern myself about others. They have their own elected representatives to take care of them. Hint hint !

    I do not however, want to be a ‘Citizen of the European Union’, I was never asked. Neither were the Scots, Welsh, Irish or English asked to be part of the ‘United Kingdom’. Scotland is getting its chance – Good luck too them, on whatever they decide. Next up, the Welsh then the Irish. You can tell I am not holding out for an English independence referendum.

    It matters not that I am English. Being English does not equate to being anti-EU, no more than being German or French does. So wherever this ‘all English Nationalists’ hating the EU’ comes from I do not know. Perhaps Mr. Redwood, you would care to explain too us?

    As I said earlier, I am a patriot. To me a Nationalist is someone who tends to be anti-something. You can tell that by their language. Listen to the SNP, Plaid Cymru or Sein Fein. They rhetoric is always anti, especially UK, never EU. This is because they can get money from the EU to bribe their electorate with FREE goodies. The English do get money from the EU, that’s true, but we are a net contributor, under the guise of the United Kingdom, so its our money anyway.

    In my mind, the EU question is separate from the question of ‘our’ Union.

    Scotland was given its own Parliament, so that the Socialists would be able to build their little Red Utopia north of the boarder. Bye-the-way, how is that coming along there Comrades ?

    As an Englishman, I have a strong sense of ‘fair-play’. Having the current arrangement is totally unfair and undemocratic. To deny ‘the same’ to the majority without even discussing it, let a lone any Parliamentary debate is scandalous. If some other country was being treated like this there would be uproar and questions in the house asked.

    Any chance of that ever happening sir ?????

  48. Electro-Kevin
    December 9, 2012

    I wouldn’t describe myself as a nationalist. I don’t wave flags and I don’t follow sporting heroes. I’m rather ashamed of the fact that I don’t speak foreign languages and that my education and abilities fall below those of more able people elsewhere in this world who have far less than I do. (I was raised in a heavily multi racial area and do not see colour)

    I feel – from personal experience – that the English are far more tolerant of the Scottish than the Scottish are of the English. I could not get a transfer north of the border whereas I was surrounded by Scottish colleagues in London.

    We are not the best. I’m not even that keen on English people if I’m honest. I see much that disgusts and disappoints me – litter in the main.

    I find myself perpetually dismayed that we cannot get what the majority of people seem to want in this country. In that regard I believe in localism and see the EU as a bad thing. A dilution of democracy.

    Does this make me a nationalist ?

    1. David Kelly
      December 10, 2012

      If you’re not that keen on English people, you would probably be better off finding another country to live in. There are roughly 200 around the globe, so there must be one you’d like.

      1. Electro-Kevin
        December 11, 2012

        David – No need to move to another country. Moving to our capital city (according to the BBC) would find me avoiding the English.

        Now then.

        Someone please remind me why we have a political class and a parliament if we no longer have a country of our own and this self-serving elite can’t even fulfil its most basic functions.

        Surely there are huge savings to be made here before we talk about cutting ordinary peoples’ jobs.

  49. Robin Tilbrook
    December 9, 2012

    As this link shows UKIP are not an English nationalist party, click here >>> http://www.ukip.org/regions
    They seem very happy to divide England into EU Regions!

  50. uanime5
    December 9, 2012

    The true enemy of the English nationalist is not the EU but the UK, for England will never have its own Parliament as long as an English parliament will result in the UK Parliament losing almost all its power.

    To illustrate this here a list the current ministerial department in the UK Parliament:

    Attorney General’s Office
    Cabinet Office
    Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
    Department for Communities and Local Government
    Department for Culture, Media and Sport
    Department for Education
    Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
    Department for International Development
    Department for Transport
    Department for Work and Pensions
    Department of Energy and Climate Change
    Department of Health
    Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    Her Majesty’s Treasury
    Home Office
    Ministry of Defence
    Ministry of Justice
    Northern Ireland Office
    Office of the Advocate General for Scotland
    Office of the Leader of the House of Commons
    Office of the Leader of the House of Lords
    Office of the Prime Minister
    Scotland Office
    Wales Office

    and here is a list of devolved powers which the Scottish Parliament possesses:

    Agriculture, Forestry, Fisheries and Food
    Culture, Media and Sport
    Economic Development
    Home Affairs
    Legal System
    Local Government and Housing
    Social Services
    Trade and Industry


    So the nearly every UK minister would lose their job if there was an English Parliament.

    1. uanime5
      December 9, 2012

      Also how is dividing England into regions any worse than dividing it up into local councils, police authorities, GP consortias, or MP constituencies. I trust the reason isn’t just “regions are from the EU therefore wrong”.

      1. IndependentEngland
        December 10, 2012

        It is worse because the regionalists want to give regions powers equal to those of the Scottish Parliament. That would cause mayhem in England.

      2. APL
        December 10, 2012

        uanime5: “Also how is dividing England into regions ..”

        It’s worse not because of the dividing but because the new regions would take their instructions directly from Brussels, thus the regionalisation of England is an overt attempt to subvert and bypass the Westminster Parliament.

  51. Adam5x5
    December 9, 2012

    English Nationalism is becoming more common and more prominent.

    It is the natural reaction to being treated as second class citizens within the UK. The Scots, Welsh and N. Irish regions have assemblies and parliaments, yet their MPs can vote on English only matters.
    The Barnett Formula unfairly favours the Scots.

    I would say that the defining feature of English Nationalist pride is being fed up with the preferential treatment given to anyone but the English people.

    Hopefully Scotland will go their own way in the vote. After all, since they hate us so much, why would they stay? (Except for us subsidising them, paying for their university fees, healthcare, etc)

  52. Monty
    December 9, 2012

    I think that party leaders, of all political stripes, have a covert liking for the over-arching dictates of the EU. It gives them the scope to make promises and declarations of intent, that they know full well they will never need to implement. And they can then slope shoulders and say “We would have gone though with it but the EU stopped us”. That is disreputable, iniquitous, and it trades upon the public ignorance of where sovereignty on various matters is really vested.

    So I want us out of the EU, and back in control of our own affairs. If Scotland votes for independance I will be sad, but in a way relieved that at last this running sore has been dealt with. But regardless of how Scotland votes, I want an English government controlling the laws and the borders of England, for the benefit of the English.

  53. margaret brandreth-j
    December 9, 2012

    John, I half agree, however I believe the attitudes are much deeper routed in the collective psyche of Britishness. We accept what we have needed to lose in terms of the Commonwealth, we have welcomed many immigrants and hope to morph into a more genetic diverse culture, yet this is our new identity, not a european identity. Why need we lose any more of the thing which this island creates. Why should we give away our collective ethics, law, sensibility, fairness, self discipline (which many hold on to dearly in present day turmoil) and exchange for a soup out there which is not to our taste.

    Many keep the emblems of our past to maintain some modicum of stability but are acutely aware of the need to find a well laid out road to the future. The Eu is not well laid out.

  54. margaret brandreth-j
    December 9, 2012

    That is rooted, although perhaps there is a Freudian slip there . We need a route.

  55. matthu
    December 9, 2012

    Martin Durkin talking about press regulation:

    “I recently made a film for Channel Four (a ‘brave’ commission) called Britain’s Trillion Pound Horror Story. For this film I interviewed a whole load of MPs and asked them if they knew the size of the official national debt, and the difference between the debt and the deficit. As it happens, almost every Labour MP was utterly clueless, the Lib-Dem MPs were slightly less dim but not much, and the Tory MPs almost all had a very good idea of both.

    But when my excellent Channel Four lawyer reviewed the show (the man is dedicated to keeping me in the industry despite my Kamikaze inclinations) he said it wouldn’t wash. For ‘balance’ we would need to make out that all MPs were equally stupid, which we did.”


  56. Robert Taggart
    December 10, 2012

    There will always be an England – unless you are concerned with British politics – the left dislike England (it rarely if ever delivers them a majority) and the right love Britain (empire / commonwealth et al).
    In British politics the English are ‘stuffed’ !

  57. Jon
    December 10, 2012

    Britain was at its best when it looked outward but under its own control. English Nationalists would have played little part of that history. Britain has long since been a global country and thats where our best future lies. If we are to re build England its to look outward, thats what Nationalism can’t do. We need to be partners to others in this world, not subordinates as the Scottish Nationalists want. Ability to control our own destiny in this global integrated world but not insular powerless Nationalists.

    1. Andy Cooper
      December 30, 2012

      What rubbish John. This is the viewpoint of our British Government, the globalist outward looking and to hell with the English viewpoint.

      -Globalisation has seen our industries sold off to countries who will make our goods cheaper, result loss of wages, profits and taxes as our money goes to China, India etc.
      -Gloablisation has seen our workers lose their jobs to cheaper foreign workers, result loss of jobs and wages as well as a reduction in wages meaning more money going to Poland, Latvia etc
      -EU workers has meant an increase in European supermarkets selling European not British goods to European workers and again more money flows into Europe.
      -£Billions have gone into foreign aide because Cameron etc lie that giving aid will stop poor immigrants flooding into England.
      -£50million a day is given to the EU
      -London is now the (foreign visitor) capital of England, schools, hospitals, prisons etc are over crowded
      -England is the most overcrowded contry in Europe

      English nationalism doesn’t mean not trading with anyone but it means preseving, defending and improving the English nation not every Sven, Pierre and Abdul.

  58. Stewart Dredge
    December 14, 2012

    Most English nationalists see “England” and the “UK” as interchangeable. England is not part of the EU so English Nationalists should have no view of the EU in a purely English context. If someone believes that Scotland’s position in the EU should be dictated by the representatives of the English electorate then that person is not an English nationalist but a British imperialist.

  59. Andy Cooper
    December 29, 2012

    I love it when some BRITISH MP tries to tell the English what English nationalism is all about. Why should England have English votes on English laws? If it’s not good enough for Scotland and Wales why do you think it is good enough for England?
    -English nationalists, not the British nationalists you talk to, are sick of British Governance while Scotland and Wales govern themselves.
    -English nationalists say ‘English not British’ we dont claim ‘English or British but not European’,
    -English nationalists become nationalists when British MPs flood our country, oh thats ENGLAND by the way, with foreigners.
    -English nationalists are sick of the British media telling us that Englishness is eating Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding while reading Shakespeare.
    – English nationalists are sick of the British media telling us spin and lies on mass immigration and multi culturism while media bias hides the number of crime(s) and rape(s) across England and indeed Europe (by recently arrived people-ed).
    -English nationalists are not your circle of friends, those are British nationalists trying to wear an English Hoodie.

    As for those who question if English nationalism exists the 2011 Census on Nationality states that the population of England is 53,012,456

    Of that population of England those who consider themselves as being:
    English only nationality is 32,007,983 or 60.4%

    Hmmmm wonder why they didnt adopt the English British nationalisty which was
    4,820,818 or 9.1%

    You intellectuals wouldnty have picked up on this while you were too busy talking about the 13% of England are immigrants (born abroad) while ignoring figures for those born in England who do not consider themselves as being in any way English
    15,834,059 or 29.9%

    Thank god for the internet eh! If all we English had to go on was the biased British media and Government we wouldnt have any idea of your total disdain for England and the English.

    But no worries you guys keep up the pretence, I know, why not write an article about what it means to be English and get some (non English) to contribute.

  60. Andy Cooper
    December 30, 2012

    (argues against multiculturalism, saying that the multicultural approach does not foster harmonious societies etc)

  61. Wyrdtimes
    January 12, 2013

    “Indeed most English nationalists are relaxed about belonging to the union of the UK. ”

    English nationalists want England to be a nation once again. Clearly that is not possible in the UK. We want independence for England. The UK stands in the way and works against English interests.

    I am not sure who Mr Redwood is talking about but they are not English nationalists.

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