Well done my Sun

 

          The Sun has told Argentine in no uncertain terms that the Falkland Islands are self governing under the UK crown, and wish to remain that way. If they wish to drop the relationship with the UK they are free to vote to do so.

           They are not a UK colony. The irony is that Argentina wishes to make them an Argentine colony against their will. They tried to do just that by unwelcome force not so long ago and lost the war they started.

            What part of  self determination does Argentina not understand?  It is very last century to pursue territorial claims against those who do not welcome your advances.

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53 Comments

  1. Posted January 4, 2013 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe you are happy with what the sun has done, it’s very provocative and unhelpful.

    • Sebastian Weetabix
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      Hmm. Do I detect one of George Orwell’s self-hating unpatriotic English leftists?

      It’s no bad thing to tell them where to get off. English politeness is often misunderstood by foreigners as weakness. Scottish-style directness works rather better, I think.

      Cracking headline Mr Redwood. Did you miss your vocation as a sub-editor?

    • scottspeig
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:49 am | Permalink

      Seriously?!?

      I wish our foreign secretary was more forthright. In fact, I’d even go as far as telling Kirchner that’s she’s a blooming nincompoop! Then I’d send a nice big ship down there.

      • Bob
        Posted January 5, 2013 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

        “Then I’d send a nice big ship down there.”

        A French one perhaps?

    • forthurst
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      “I can’t believe you are happy with what the sun has done, it’s very provocative and unhelpful.”

      How absurd, it’s Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner who’s sabre-rattling. Furthermore, apart from continuous ocupation since 1833, the Arana-Southern Treaty of 1845 further established that the Argentine Confederation no longer retained a claim to the Islands, therefore Argentina has no rightful claim to the Islands, that’s why it tried to take and hold them by force, previously.

      • Posted January 6, 2013 at 12:05 am | Permalink

        That was at the end of 1849 (ratified 1850)

        By coincidence the date you mention, 1845, was when one of my ancestors was sent to Buenos Aires to negotiate.

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

      The President of Argentina confuses geography with democracy. The Sun has repaid her in kind. Com on, loosen up!

      • Edward
        Posted January 4, 2013 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

        Indeed Mike,
        The people who live on the Falkland Islands are not slaves to be bought and sold.
        It is their decision to remain linked to the UK and Argentina should respect that decision.
        If they were to vote to become independent or to become linked to Argentina then I am sure the UK would agree to their request.

    • wab
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

      The President of Argentina is behaving stupidly and is just publicity seeking.

      The Sun is behaving stupidly and is just publicity seeking.

      It is the morons on both sides of a dispute that cause stupid and unnecessary wars to happen. We need serious people in charge, not demagogues.

      It is unfortunate that Mr. Redwood lines up with the demagogues. But perhaps he wants a war with Argentina so that the current government has some possibility of becoming popular, after its manifestly failed economic policies.

      Let us not forget that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

      Reply Of course I do not want a war. It is most important that Argentina understands the government has no intention of surrendering the islands to become an Argentine colony against the wishes of the islanders. That’s the way to stop another invasion.

    • Terry
      Posted January 6, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

      What a funny fellow you are, Mr Haynes.

      So, you consider the “Sun’s” language is provocative and unhelpful. So just how would you describe the language of the President of Argentina?

  2. lifelogic
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    Indeed having caused so many pointless deaths by their invasion just 20 years ago one might have thought a period of silence would have been welcome.

    Of course our position would be more moral had Blair not started other pointless, illegal and counter productive wars causing many more pointless deaths.

    Still politics is about manipulating peoples emotions and envy alas. Or as Osborne might put it (even while promoting science) things that appeal to the heart rather than the brain (his 50% tax perhaps). A sort of new science of the heart – I assume this ties in with Cameron’s absurd happiness index.

    • Posted January 4, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

      Sorry but wasn’t it the Argentinians who started this with an illegal invasion???
      Have I missed something here?
      Sorry about the Belgrano but a warship in the vicinity of a war zone is a threat whichever way it is pointing. They do have rudders you know.

      • lifelogic
        Posted January 4, 2013 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

        @Bernard Juby

        I agree with you fully – I was just making the point that Blair’s counter productive wars were as much of an outrage as was the absurd invasion of the Falklands by Argentina. All should be condemned, very many pointless deaths were caused and to no positive purpose at all.

    • Disaffected
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

      Is the UK still throwing away £500 million on overseas aid to Argentina as it was when Mitchell was in charge? I note Cameron says Starbucks has no morale scruples, does he ever look in the mirror and wonder about so many of his own actions in so many different ways, including his pledge to waste our money and that of Starbucks on overseas aid, EU contribution, pointless Libyan war to effect regime change, pensioners in fuel poverty because of his lunacy around the green drivel nonsense etc etc? He might want to start acting on one of his first pledges to clean up parliament, it might help his credibility.

  3. alan jutson
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Whilst the claim is probably real enough, it is being used as a smoke screen to try and hide more significant problems at home.

    Good that the Falkland Islanders are going to get a referendum about self determination, like Scotland, wonder when we get our turn to dump the EU ?

    • eddyh
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

      Or even when we get a vote to dump Scotland.

    • lifelogic
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

      When will we get an EU vote? When they think we will vote they way they want us to, I assume.

  4. The PrangWizard
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    Which part of self-determination for the English do the British Elites not understand? And of course I address that question to English MPs sitting in the British parliament, who if they wished could declare in favour of a parliament for England. Would this not be an ideal time to prove their belief in the principle?

  5. Pete the Bike
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    It’s very last century to pursue decade long wars against people that live thousands of miles away and pose no threat at all to us. It’s very last century to send special forces and aircraft to destabilize foreign countries so that extremist rebels can take them over. It’s ironic that Britain acts like a protector of liberty in the Falklands and a rogue terrorist state in Afghanistan, Libya and Syria but then governments are always schizophrenic and psychopathic in equal measure.

    • Edward
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

      So Pete,
      Never interfere, just let the bully boys win?
      Never stand up for what you feel is right or even stand up for what is is in your nation’s interest?
      What kind of world that would end up being.

  6. Anthony Harrison
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Does Argentina really wish to seize the Falkland Islands? The increasingly histrionic gestures of La Kirchner notwithstanding, I’d have thought that even more than in 1982, the Falklands were simply a handy tool for Argentina’s corrupt, incompetent rulers to distract their people from their disastrous economy. Argentina’s military capacity to attempt an attack is considerably less than thirty years ago: they haven’t the ships, their subs are hardly used, their fighter aircraft similarly – they can’t afford to run them… Could they afford to run the Falklands too, when their mainland territory is collapsing round their ears?
    I suspect if our government were to hand them The Falklands on a plate (wouldn’t put it past them…) there would be consternation in Buenos Aires.

    • Adam5x5
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:15 am | Permalink

      Isn’t that why they’re suddenly after the Falklands?

      They’re broke and there’s speculation that there might be significant quantities of oil under the Falklands…

      • Monty
        Posted January 4, 2013 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

        Yes there may indeed be oil/gas reserves, but I seem to recall that we tried to open negotiations with Argentina to agree a share for them. I think it was something to do with the impracticality of building an oil/gas terminal and associated engineering resources on the Falklands themselves. So Argentina was sounded out about them building the support terminal and taking a beneficial share of the business. Never found out how that worked out though.

    • William
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

      Fair points. I know Argentina and was there a few months ago. Their army is so badly funded that there is no chance of another invasion, although always the possibility of a small raid by marines (eg to leave a flag and depart).

      In a big army base near Buenos Aires the Officers Mess is also rented out for weddings, flower shows etc. to raise money to improve their living conditions.

      • Bob
        Posted January 5, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

        ” the Officers Mess is also rented out for weddings”

        Do they allow gay weddings?

  7. Iain Moore
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    But that we have to leave the verbal defence of our territory and the argument to a tabloid paper says it all about the decadence of the British political establishment.

  8. Iain Gill
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Like the pun, very apt.

    We couldnt defend the isle of wight at the moment never mind the falklands.

    • James Matthews
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      Yes. There’s the rub. Sadly in this and many other situations what you have the capacity to do matters a great deal more than what you say.

      Incidentally, it would be interesting if other parts of the world wanted to revert to the territorial sovereignties which obtained 180 years ago and even more interesrting if native Americans (south as well as north) were to demand their territories back.

  9. Alan Wheatley
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Here here!

  10. cosmic
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    I have an idea that Argentine interest in the Falklands increases as a function of trouble in their internal domestic politics.

  11. Martin Ryder
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Argentina was colonised by the Spanish. Is the Argentine President proposing to give Argentina back to the people who lived there when the Spanish arrived? Of course she is not.

    There were no native peoples on the Falklands when the Europeans, including the British and the Spanish, arrived. The islands were occupied by a number of nations until the British established a firm hold over them.

    The Falkland Islands belong to the Falkland Islanders and the UK is doing the right thing protecting them. They should declare independence from the UK and then sign a defence treaty with us.

  12. BARMOUTH FAN
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Argentina’s economy is in a mess – an international body recently criticised their economic ‘statistics’. Of course jingoism is red meat to throw to the electorate.

  13. Barbara
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    The truth is when we claimed the Falkland islands Argentina wasn’t a state at all. They became a state several years later, by invading several other small states, and then called it Argentina. There were no humans on the island at all until some British began to live there, certainly no Argentians as they didn’t actually exsist at that time. So, their claim is false and their President is pushing her luck to be made a complete fool of herself and her nation. Cameron should put these facts to the UN and prove we have a right to represent the Falkland islands, but now we have a well established settlement there they can detirmine their own destiny. Its a pity we can’t detirmine our as well while we’re at it. No voices are heard on this subject? As they now owe the UK millions in unpaid debt, and we give them aid, I think its time we revued what and when the debt should be repaid. We are not the only ones owed money which Argentina as defaulted on. All this talk is to deflect from these problems, and of course the recent oil exploration which they want for themselves. Who’s fooling who here!

  14. i.stafford
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps HM’s ambassador in Argentina should be recalled for “consultations”.

  15. uanime5
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Given that France has several overseas regions and territories (including French Guiana) I can’t see why it’s wrong for the UK to have these either.

    • Edward
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

      Given that comment is unusually perceptive of you uni, I am given to agree with you for once.

  16. Martin
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    A sovereign government of perpetual devaluation of its own currency ends up in a tabloid spat.

    President Fernandez style of politics belongs in a comic. I hope the press asked for payment in advance in a hard currency for her advertisements.

  17. Mark W
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Apart from the obvious distraction of internal economic problems, I was surprised that Argentina played the colonial card. The original natives of South and Central America were slaughtered by Iberian colonialists so I can’t see the Buenos Aires government is really in an honest position to play this angle unless they plan on deserting their country and moving back to Spain en masse. Just how far back in history do we go with this nonsense.

    The Falklands are hardly an offshore island to Argentina either. Nearly 1,200 miles away. Possibly we ought to follow what the USA does with Hawaii. I’m guessing the Argentine’s aren’t making a similar daft claim there.

    • William
      Posted January 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

      You must mean Buenos Aires. It is in fact only about 300 miles – which is how their fighter aircraft could reach the islands.

  18. Stu H.
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    On the Falklands, here is the fallout from 3 decades ago:
    (Copied from a motorcycle website I belong to, this was put up there this week.)

    ———–

    Today I have learned that a friend has killed himself – hose into a car.

    He was 2 Para during the Falklands War and a trained medic to boot, he saved lives from both sides, I believe he took lives too – only theirs.

    I am friends with his wife who was in the same unit as my ex wife, She spoke of his demons at the 30th Falklands anniversary which he could not attend as he was working on the rigs.

    The war may have been over but whatever he saw and did haunted him, always. PTSD.

    What more can I say, I have a tear in my eye, which I find strange as we were not ‘best’ mates, just someone you would buy a pint for down the watering holes of Aldershot and shoot the s!$% with as and when.

    He leaves his wife and grown up daughter behind.

    I am f!$%ing gutted and will have a hangover tomorrow, something I avoided throughout Christmas and New Year.

    On the plus side I spoke to him in July at the Airborne Forces Weekend and clearly remember saying goodbye and shaking his hand on the Sunday before going home, not the goodbye I meant but…..

    2013 Same s!$%, Different Year.

    RIP (named)…..this man is a true HERO

  19. Mark B
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    @ Martin: January 4, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    “A sovereign government of perpetual devaluation of its own currency ends up in a tabloid spat.”

    Err, which one mate ? ;o)

    ——

    The thing with the Falklands dispute is, it’s NOT about the Falklands.

    How a country the size of Argentina can get so worked up about something that was never actually theirs is beyond me. And it isn’t only the Falklands that they claim. They also lay claim to South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands, which are even further from the Argentine mainland. What is more, I do not believe that their was ever a Spanish claim to those islands. This leads me to believe that there is more too this. And if one looks a little further south, you will see the continent of Antarctica, which is believed to have vast mineral wealth.

    Argentina, I would suspect, would love to have us out of the way.

    The game here is not too transparent and is very long term.

    The irony of Mr. Redwood’s post is that, our government talks of rights for Falkland Islanders’ but none for the people that elected him too office and pay the bill to keep those same Islanders’ free.

    I wonder what would happen to those Islanders’ if/when the E.U. takes over our foreign policy.

    As for the people of Argentina, they should thank us. After the war, the Junta fell and democracy returned. And then they were able to stop the killing of their own people !!!

  20. David Langley
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Its a bit worrying really. Have we got the troops and the kit to do it again. There would be some kind of mad overstretch to win the place back again.
    We could have slaughtered the conscript Argies last time with a combined fire mission at Port Stanley, there has been enough blood spilled there. Lets just recognise that we need to maintain a credible defence force so that we can do our job anywhere in the world where we have liabilities and that includes Gibraltar.

    • Johnny
      Posted January 5, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

      Is that the point of Trident? Not much point Argentina having the Falkland Islands if their capital city glows in the dark.

  21. REPay
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    I am afraid the concept of self-determination is not generally understood by the UN…and most European friends of mine think geography should determine ownership, not the inhabitants.

  22. margaret brandreth-j
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Are we not in a roundabout way still just fighting for poor grade oil ?…. Like the trendy speak ” very last century”.

  23. Jon
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    I think it is entirely British that a tabloid responds to the Argentine president on an educational issue. It is a waste of time of our Ministers and Prime Minister to educate others about basic history.

  24. peter davies
    Posted January 4, 2013 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    A clever stunt by a tabloid newspaper, stooping down to the level of the Argentinian president.

    At the end of the day the colonization argument used by Argentina is absurd given that the vast majority of Argentinians are themselves derived from Spanish stock and displaced many of the native tribes and FI which was uninhabited came under the UK banner whilst Argentina was still a Spanish colony.

    Add the fact that its over 1000 miles away the whole thing is complete nonsense.

    Its just sabre rattling politics to deflect from their own problems, a bit like labour supporters do when trying to divert blame for the banking crisis on “the greedy bankers”, “the US” or the “tories called for less regulation” or anything else they can think of.

  25. Steve Cox
    Posted January 5, 2013 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    I wonder how the relationship between the UK and the Falklands would change if large quantities of oil were discovered there? “Sorry guys, but we’re going to have to make you a colony and tax you as if you were British to protect you from those nasty Argies.”

    Britain is as nasty a country as Argentina when it suits it to be:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/26/jersey-threatens-independence-tax-backlash

    • James Matthews
      Posted January 5, 2013 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

      Provided that the Falkland Islanders had the option to say “No thank you, we will provide for our own defence or take our chances with the Argies” there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Democracy does not include the right to demand that other people outside your demos meet the cost of your defence in money or blood (and clearly an oil rich Falklands would need defending). Nothing nasty about it, just ordinary rationality.

      • Bob
        Posted January 5, 2013 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

        ” take our chances with the Argies”

        They’d be ethnically cleansed in no time flat.

  26. Conrad Jones (Cheam)
    Posted January 5, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    What part of Geographic Distance does the UK not bloody understand.

    • Conrad Jones (Cheam)
      Posted January 6, 2013 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

      Like other stories associated with Democracy and Self Determination (all valid of course, and plausible), there are often other issues which take precidence over the Rights of Local Residents.

      Oil.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/19/falklands-start-producing-oil-2017-rockhopper

      There is no doubt in my mind that the Falklands is an huge asset to the UK. I believe that – as usual; a smokescreen of “Self Determination” and “Democracy” is hailed as the reason why the UK is rushing to the aid of the small Communities on the Falkland Islands.

      Governments only use People’s Rights when is serves a greater purpose – Energy Extraction through Oil Exploration. Oil is to flow from the Falklands by 2017, so no wonder the Argentinian Government wants the “Malvinas”. They don’t care about the Islanders either, but they do care about Oil.

      The Servicemen and Women who lost their lives and were injured in the Falklands War did not suffer in vain. They’re victory in the Falklands has and will benefit the UK but maybe not in the way they were led to believe.

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  • About John Redwood

    John Redwood has been the Member of Parliament for Wokingham since 1987. First attending Kent College, Canterbury, he graduated from Magdalen College, and has a DPhil from All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.
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