UKIP becomes one of those “Westminster parties”

Now UKIP has an MP at Westminster, who has considerable experience of Westminster as a former MP, does this make UKIP one of the “Westminster parties” that are the problem according to UKIP?

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70 Comments

  1. Mark B
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Good evening.

    I think it is time for our kind host to accept what has happened, and move on.

    • Richard1
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

      The concern for any Eurosceptic Conservative is of course that by far the most likely result of a strong showing for UKIP in a general election is a Labour govt, or a Labour-LibDem coalition. This of course means: tax borrow and spend policies, no EU referendum, green crap continued and boosted, no welfare or school reform, a return to 1970s style union influence etc. It is quite difficult to work out what people like Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless actually want. I suspect the reality is they feel personally snubbed by the Cameron club for some reason. You can’t reconcile what these guys have been saying they want in terms of policies with the most probable electoral implications of what they have done and now urge others to do.

      • lojolondon
        Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

        Cameron’s continued rejection of UKIP has had an excellent result – now UKIP reach the parts that the Conservatives can’t – look at Heywood and Middleton. Many, many voters are going to realise that in the North of England, a vote for the Conservatives is a vote for Labour, and that is really good news for our democracy.

        • Richard1
          Posted October 12, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

          Well if it really means voters who have until now consistently voted for some of the highest tax rates in the world, eurofederalism, the most fanatical green crap anywhere on the planet, opposition to any public service reforms (ie Labour policies) will now start voting for a small govt, low tax eurosceptic party then great. But the overwhelming bulk of UKIP support is unfortunately in Conservative constituencies in the south. So Cameron is right, vote UKIP get Labour.

        • Leslie Singleton
          Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

          Lojo–And the consequences of voting Conservative in Northern England seem to me to be irrefutable fact whereas the weary stuff about the horrors of voting UKIP in the Election are just a matter of opinion especially now with all bets off.

        • Hope
          Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:04 am | Permalink

          He has signed the EU arrest warrant and wants us to believe that he will renegotiate when he did not have to surrender another power to the the EU. It was given freely with nothing in exchange. He is signing away our freedom and sovereignty.

      • Bob
        Posted October 12, 2014 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

        @Richard1

        “by far the most likely result of a strong showing for UKIP in a general election”

        could be that they get to hold David Cameron’s feet to the fire.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:47 am | Permalink

        If any “eurosceptic Conservative” is so desperately concerned about the prospect of another Labour government then he should be urging his party leaders to stop splitting the vote in the many constituencies where the Tory party has no realistic chance of beating Labour or the LibDems but UKIP would have a chance in the absence of a candidate put up by the Tory party as little more than a spoiler candidate. Otherwise all these expressions of deep concern about what would ensue if Labour won the next general election look more than a little hypocritical.

      • Mondeo Man
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

        Richard 1 – Most people have cottoned on to one simple fact:

        Immigration is out of control under the Tories.

        This means the average person is going down the pan whatever the Tories tell us is going right with the economy.

        People are now refusing to vote for it any longer.

        Labour gets in ? Yes. Likely.

        Voting Tory to keep them out has not worked for us. Voting tactically does not work. This is how we’ve ended up with the three party cartel and condescending Tories treating us with contempt.

        People have decided No more ! To vote for what they wish for rather than to vote negatively.

        This is good.

        Good for democracy.

        If Labour do get in then blame it on the Tories. Because they’d sooner Labour wins than UKIP ones, obviously.

        They care more about their bloody party than they do the country !

  2. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    No.
    Just another of your unfunny jokes I presume?

  3. matthu
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    One would normally wait until they have estabished some sort of a track record … why don’t we consider those parties who DO have a track record and then reflect on how UKIP might measure up?

    • David Price
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

      UKIP do have a track record – 20 years in the EP. How does that measure up in terms of meeting their duties and responsibilities as elected representatives to all their constituents?

      Reply Indeed. Maybe I should call them a Brussels party then!

      • libertarian
        Posted October 12, 2014 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

        David Price

        If you would like to share with us ANY MEP from ANY party who has achieved anything as a member of that “parliament” I’d be pleased to hear it

        • David Price
          Posted October 14, 2014 at 6:33 am | Permalink

          UKIP are they ones who claim to be cleaner than the rest and more democratic. It is a simple enough question, what have UKIP MEPs achieved in terms of benefits for the UK from the EU in the 20 years for all their constituents.

          UKIP are the ones who need to justify their (words deleted ed) salaries and benefits (Nigel Farage, 1999) irrespective of what anyone else does.

          • alan jutson
            Posted October 14, 2014 at 9:21 am | Permalink

            UKIP have achieved very little in the EU because they have been outvoted, simples.

            Given the subject matter is fixed in advance, and veto’s are being reduced, what chance does anyone have of changing the EU juggernaut unless they have an absolute majority of like minded voters for their cause.

            Perhaps you should look at their voting record !

            How much have our UK Parliament representatives achieved in the last 20 years with all of their so called clout ?

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:53 am | Permalink

        Dear John–Can you really think it a good idea to continue to try to depreciate and poke phone at UKIP after what has just happened? You like the history, at least when it suits, so must know by now that that hasn’t worked too well to date

      • Bob
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:08 am | Permalink

        @David Price > UKIP’s raison d’être is to free us from the EU yoke and restore independence for the United Kingdom.

        According the the latest election results and polls they’re doing a fine job for their electors, and the panic now evident among the old establishment parties should be proof enough of that.

        I guess you would rather see them pinned down in endless bureaucratic activities designed to keep them busy and preventing them from achieving their objectives. My only question is why? Is it just a tribal thing?

        • David Price
          Posted October 14, 2014 at 6:28 am | Permalink

          I asked a simple enough question – what have UKIP achieved for the benefit of the UK from the EU in the 20 years they have been MEPs?

          When elected an MEP’s duty is to represent all their constituents, not just the ones they agree with. This is key element of a democracy and for a party that claims to be so democratic to then not meet their democratic responsibility is being at the least hypocritical.

          They could at least turn up to meetings and earn their Goldman Sachs banker level payment.

          As for tribes, UKIP most definitely act as a tribe, no questioning of the leadership under any circumstances.

          • Bob
            Posted October 14, 2014 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

            @David Price
            The EU Parliament waves through thousands of pages of legislation with large majorities of pro EU MEPs in favour.
            Often they have no more than twenty minutes to scrutinise the papers they’re voting on.
            If our MEPs voted “no” to everything put before them it would have no effect whatsoever due to the simple voting mathematics.

            Maybe you should ask our thoughtful and extremely hard working host why he didn’t turn up to vote on the Climate Change Act ; he will doubtless answer that he knew it would go through with an overwhelming majority in favour so he didn’t see any point in wasting his precious time participating in a vote he had no chance of winning (and who could blame him?).

            Reply I did turn up and decided to abstain because ti was obvious the vote was overwhelming. I would have voted against if it had been closer, and made my disagreement with the Bill quite clear at the time.

  4. JoeSoap
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    This is descending into trite.
    UKIP are there to challenge the present system, and for that they legally need to be in the system. If UKIP people attacked the current sleazy set-up from outside, in an animal-rights way, you would rightly accuse them of being cowards, and unwilling to challenge your party head-on. Now they attack you and beat you on your own ground, they are suddenly neutralised by you, being accused of being part of your cosy cartel.
    Shame on you!

  5. Leslie Singleton
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Dear John–One appreciates that you must be a bit hacked off with the way things are going but scraping the barrel for shallow sneering comments like this is not going to help. You and yours have to take on board the fact that there are a lot of serious people out here who feel deeply on this and who are more than willing to let it all bounce off in pursuit of their priority which is, initially, simply a handful of UKIP MP’s. As Janet Daley today put it, neither she (nor I), has ever met a single person outside of Westminster and Islington who speaks even remotely in the same way as the main Parties. Think on that and ask us again in a hundred years.

    • The PrangWizard
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

      Well said. They still don’t get it do they?

    • David Price
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      I agree that Westminster is completely disconnected from real life, but not that Farage or UKIP are the answer. They are as much political as the other parties and part of the establishment. They use words like democracy and referendum but don’t really believe them.

      They claim their main goal is to take the UK out of the EU yet they have no plan for this process and its aftermath, instead focussing their energies, and spite in the case of many supporters, on destroying the party that has the most active EUsceptics.

      They change policies as often as their socks and they cannot even be open and honest about their intentions on English devolution.

      As a voter I do not see them as a credible alternative to the Westminster tribes.

  6. The PrangWizard
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    From my viewpoint, as an active English nationalist, UKIP are indeed are just the same as the other Westminster parties. They wish to retain the status quo. They are against a true parliament for England, so anyone who has voted for them so far on the basis that they are a party for England have been misled. They are Unionists, so the English who wish justice for England will get nothing from them.

    Mr Redwood is correct, UKIP will quickly slip into Establishment ways.

    And, if I may, could you let us know what progress William Hague has made on Cameron’s promise that it is time the people of England were heard? I seem to remember your writing that ‘English Votes….’ could be delivered very quickly. Is it possible the promise is already lost in the long grass? It seems he has had enough time to come up with something. And I hope I don’t hear ‘he is consulting widely’ – we’ve been through all that.

    • JoeSoap
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

      I think you will find that UKIP would apply the same solution to England as to Scotland Wales and NI. A temporary solution to the West Lothian question would be to disallow Scots MPs from voting on non-Scottish issues immediately (another Conservative plan which has gone nowhere). Long-term there would be an equivalence in the situation between nationalities, no doubt via referendum in the direct democracy we so dearly need. Again, an idea which has already sunk without trace in Cameron-world. Another forgotten promise, or vow, or whatever you call it.

      • David Price
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 7:27 am | Permalink

        That is not at all what Farage says in the 2010 manifesto nor the “Policies for People” item on the UKIP website while the “What We Stand For” item says nothing about England.

        The 2010 manifesto points the UKIP way to long term democratic equivalence – withdrawl of devolution from Scotland and Wales and NI with MSPs replaced by MPs in Wesminster.

        It appears Farage has decided to forget about ENgland.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

      As far as one can tell, UKIP is in favour of a so-called “English Parliament” and a federal structure, but just like JR UKIP is not in favour of it being a true English Parliament, a separate and separately elected assembly … but it seems to be a bit of a muddle. Nigel Farage in February 2012:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16966250

      “Well, look, I don’t think there is any appetite for yet more buildings, yet more layers of … I mean, the idea that we have another five hundred MPs for England … I don’t think we need to do that.”

      Some way to go on that one, it’s the same false argument as the Tories use.

      • The PrangWizard
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

        That clip from 2012 is likely to mislead; Farage has said this year and it’s on camera somewhere that he is against a separate English parliament. He went on to confirm he leads a Unionist party; that to have an English First Minister would present great difficulties since the position would rival that of the UK PM; consequently he is opposed to that too. There will be no justice for the English with UKIP. The only party campaigning for our true democratic rights is the English Democrats.

        • Brian
          Posted October 14, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

          Could I please request that if we are to have an English Parliment that we don’t call the leader of the Parliment the “First Minister”.

    • DaveM
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

      Ebola and ISIS have conveniently eclipsed the English question. Or so the Tories think. There’ll be a reminder at some point – in a similar way to Ukip winning a seat in the HoC just when you thought we’d all forgotten about that pesky EU referendum.

      Only – unappeased English nationalism is a lot uglier than a by-election. Time’s ticking and we’re still watching this space!!

      On that subject – 70000 people singing Jerusalem at Old Trafford yesterday (without the words being projected!) fed my soul and showed that times they have a-changed.

      Reply Far from forgetting the English question the other parties have been given until end November to make up their mind whether they will support English votes for English issues or not. If they do it is easy. If they refuse we go ahead and table it anyway as we wish to win this vote.

      • DaveM
        Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

        Ha ha. I was expecting a reply like that, but it’s another example of the ”silence of Cameron” on subjects that the electorate considers important and he doesn’t. And this is why people don’t trust him on the EU referendum despite assurances from people like you.

  7. Lifelogic
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully not but we shall see.

    Anyway UKIP are helping the Tories by pushing them away from their current duff LibDem agenda to the far more sensible, popular, and sound conservative ones of UKIP.

    Policies that will both work and be popular. Other than with the “BBC think” loons. Still trying to brand them as racists and anti-immigrant even now.

  8. Chris S
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    This Conservative understands why, to anyone who watched the BBC Andrew Neil interview with Nigel Farage this afternoon, the answer to the question is a definite No.

    Contrast Farage’s performance with any Cameron or Miliband interview : There was no avoiding questions or hiding behind careful chosen words, just pretty straight answers to straight questions.

    That’s what separates UKIP from all the other parties and it’s such a change, it’s like a breath of fresh air. Only Boris comes close on our side.

    Remember all those occasions when David Cameron has been invited to state that he will campaign for a No vote if he can’t get a satisfactory deal on Europe, or Miliband repeatedly refusing to say that Scottish MPs voting on English issues is unfair.

    These antics are hugely damaging in the eyes of the public but these guys and the people that they surround themselves with, none of whom have ever had a proper job, just don’t get it, do they ?

    This morning we have the unedifying sight of Harriet Harman saying on air that Labour needs to listen to what we are all saying about Immigration. She could hardly bring herself to utter the words between her gritted teeth.

    We’re not fools, we all know that she doesn’t mean it. After all, she, Miliband, Balls and most of the other Champagne Socialists at the top of the Labour party were responsible for the mass immigration that permanently changed our country, and not for the better, as well as almost bankrupting it. Yet that lot continue to maintain that 3m extra immigrants under their watch and “Multiculturalism” has been good for us !

    Personally I’d like to see the straight-talking Teressa May as Prime Minister.
    At least she’s had a couple of proper jobs, and I don’t mean in PR !

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

      Borris says cannot see much difference between UKIP and the conservatives. Well perhaps not between sensible conservatives and UKIP but between the Libdem current conservative leadership there is a massive divide.

      They differ on the EU, on selective immigration, on ever more taxation, on the date of a referendum, on all the green crap, on MP recall, on staying in the EU, on pointless wars, on daft regulations. on IHT ………………. a huge difference. They are the complete opposite of the “BBC think” Cameron.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:59 am | Permalink

      Dear Chris–Except that, so I understand, it was she that was fanatically keen and egging Cameron on to his homosexual marriage lunacy

  9. Ian wragg
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    We’re more than a star on a foreign flag
    That will be the battle cry. The game is up John

  10. Denis Cooper
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Well, quite amusing; but I suppose that this is feeding into the

    “I found on the doorsteps of Clacton that most people who said they intended to support UKIP were really only interested in making an anti-politics protest vote”

    narrative …

    Personally I’ve never referred to the “Westminster parties”, and why should I when a far more accurate description for the pro-EU parties would be “anti-Westminster”?

    The Spectator occasionally uses a really stupid cartoon showing an evil-looking Nigel Farage gleefully blowing up the Houses of Parliament, when the truth is exactly the opposite – it has been the pro-EU parties that have damaged our national Parliament, going a long way to reducing it to the subordinate “council chamber in Europe” that Kenneth Clarke said he wanted it to be*, while it is UKIP which is intent on reasserting our national sovereignty and restoring our national democracy.

    * Kenneth Clarke, cited as recorded in the International Currency Review, Vol. 23, No. 4, Autumn 1996:

    “I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe.”

    Pro-EU equals anti-Westminster, you see.

  11. Freeborn John
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Vote LibLabCon – Get Fooled (again)

  12. ian
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    No he the first MP going to parliament to vote for his people as they please at Clacton, he is not a party and does not have a three line whip, if he did he could be sacked under recall.
    He works with UKIP to bring about democracy.
    People are not worried about labour winning the next election because they will not last and even if they do, they know what labour is like and if it is a total failed government it will make the people want more change than now. Democracy will not lose this time, the main three parties have seen to that with their greed.

  13. DaveM
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    That’s below you John.

    I admire loyalty, but blind loyalty to an inept leader you secretly want rid of is Harman-esqe.

    Inevitably Ukip will disappear if we leave the EU, but in the meantime, if I was a Conservative I’d be really quite worried now. Unless of course I secretly wanted Labour to win next year……..

    Reply Lighten up!

    • mickc
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

      It is not a “lighten up” matter.

      Tory supporters, at least those who are left, are furious that Cameron has been such a disaster.

      Policies which he should have espoused have been ignored, and appropriated by UKIP-along with many former Tory supporters who he thinks he can get back by insulting them!

      The captain of the Titanic may as well have said he thought the passengers needed some more ice with their drinks!

      And incidentally we did not like being labelled the “nasty party” by Mrs. May- a comment she will reflect wryly upon when she seeks the leadership.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 6:01 am | Permalink

        The Tory Party certainly do not want anyone like Mrs T May in charge. She is even worse than Cameron. Her attacks on personal freedoms are an outrage.

    • Stephen Berry
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      UKIP supporters on this column can lay about with their broadswords, but a gentle little prod from John is quite unconscionable.

      Be careful, John. I don’t want to see you shipped off to the UKIP gulag at Clacton, sentenced to interminable lectures on constitutional reform by Douglas Carswell.

      • Anonymous
        Posted October 13, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

        Stephen – Dr Redwood is probably one of the more dangerous politicians in the country.

        He lends credibility to the otherwise leftist Tory party.

        The more the mainstreamers attack UKIP the more people go to UKIP.

  14. alan jutson
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    I think I would wait until they, or rather he, takes his seat before attempting to stick a label them.

    Never know you may be proved right, or they maybe a real breath of fresh air, one thing is for sure, the next few months will be interesting for all concerned.

    Methinks a real headache for Cameron, Miliband, and Clegg for the next 7 months, not just from UKIP, but more importantly from their own supporters and backbenchers..

  15. mickc
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    With respect, you know as well as we do, that “westminster” is a state of mind, some would call it arrogance, not the geographical place.

    It is a state of mind increasingly despised by the people because “westminster” treats the people with contempt. Mr. Parris of that manor is a fine example.

    Carswell did not treat the voters with contempt. He sought their approval-and got it.

    The moral is-do not treat the people with contempt and amusement overlong, their patience has limits.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:05 am | Permalink

      It’s a huge step forward that some MPs are now prepared to put themselves at the risk of resigning from office during a Parliament and asking their constituents to renew their contracts on a new basis, and few people are reacting by saying that this is a ridiculous thing to do and most people more or less take it for granted that it is the right thing to do. I think that credit must go to David Davis as a trailblazer on this; back in June 2008 when he stood down and sought re-election over civil liberties he was ridiculed for doing that, not least by his own party leadership, and the other parties decided not to give his move any extra publicity by putting up candidates at the by-election. In fact in a way David Davis was harking back to a similar old practice whereby an MP who accepted ministerial office would resign as an MP and seek fresh approval from his constituents, a practice which started in the early 18th century but was gradually diluted down during the 19th and finally stopped altogether in 1926.

      http://everything2.com/title/Office+of+Profit+under+the+Crown

      In contrast there are other less honourable MPs who should resign immediately and not stand for re-election, but instead hang on to the end of the Parliament raking in salary, and expenses, and qualifying for the resettlement grant.

      Of course what constituents need is a recall system, a legal mechanism to force the immediate resignation of their MP with no other body being able to prevent that happening. Any MP who genuinely felt aggrieved by that decision would be free to fight the subsequent by-election, in almost all cases.

  16. fedupsouthener
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Well, let’s just wait and see. They speak more common sense than the Lib Dems ever did and Cameron could do a lot worse than get into bed with them. Personally, I think the day Ed Davey and his cohorts get dumped can’t come too soon. Surely a coalition with UKIP has got to be a better option??

    Even if we succeeded in getting our energy policy changed it would be a step in the right direction. John, I hope you will be attending the GWPF’s meeting on Weds evening where Owen Paterson (the only person talking any sense) is speaking on behalf of a beleaguered nation and will do his best to try and turn around the great harm Ed Davey has done to this country.

    Reply I will be there. I have been talking sense about the need for more and cheaper energy for rather longer than Owen!

    • fedupsouthener
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

      Thank goodness some of you will be singing from the same hymn sheet!! Well done and good luck.

    • Brian Tomkinson
      Posted October 12, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

      Reply to reply,
      JR: “I have been talking sense about the need for more and cheaper energy for rather longer than Owen!”
      Now that Cameron has dropped him, he can tell us the facts and what he really believes rather than blindly follow the party line which is leading us to disaster.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 3:05 am | Permalink

      Dear John–Got any idea why Cameron sacked Paterson? Another of his misjudgements.

  17. Martin
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    You make a good point about UKIP. For years they have moaned about Brussels. Now they moan about Westminster.

    Maybe they are just some sort of anarchists at heart.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:38 am | Permalink

      Utter nonsense.

      For as long as I can remember, which is back to before the 1997 general election, UKIP has always been perfectly clear that our problems with Brussels stem from our problems with Westminster. The oft-repeated mantra “Repeal the European Communities Act 1972 and leave the European Union” both lays the blame where it truly belongs and explains the legal solution.

      In fact it is the Tory party which has made a longterm practice of pointing the finger at Brussels to divert attention from its own misdeeds, which have been treacherous and some would say even treasonable.

      We saw an example of this quite recently with Cameron noisily accusing the EU Parliament of a power grab over the appointment of the next President of the EU Commission, rather than admit that his predecessor Major had willingly given it the power it was exercising when he agreed to the Maastricht Treaty.

    • Mondeo Man
      Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

      Martin – Brussels and Westminster have managed to make anarchists of us all !

      It beggars belief that they thought they could keep slapping us around and how stupid we were to let them do it. They are visibly shocked by the realisation that they no longer own us and what a joy it is to see.

      If we’re going to be ruled by Europe (as the Tories want) then we don’t need Westminster and it doesn’t really matter that Miliband gets in.

  18. Boudicca
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Post WW2, the Conservative Party has been betraying the British people since Macmillan told our Commonwealth Cousins to find other markets because the Party intended taking the UK into the EEC/EU. The Liberal Party (now LibDems is as bad).

    Labour has been betraying the British people since 1975 and Wilson’s rigged Referendum.

    When UKIP has had MPs in Parliament for 70 years; has formed a Government and failed to get us out of the EU, THEN there might be an argument that they are just another Westminster Party.

    At the moment – and for the foreseeable future – the jury’s out.

  19. Kenneth R Moore
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    I think UKIP do have to be on their guard once they become established in Westminster.
    As the Conservatives have found, becoming too broad a church in order to accomodate views from the unpopular left ground has proved deeply problematic.

  20. Pud
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Instead of sniping at UKIP, wouldn’t Conservative energies be better spent deciding how to go back to the Thatcher/Kinnock era policy of “clear blue water” between Tory and Labour parties, instead of the current Lib/Lab/Con tactic of all trying to fit on the pinhead of middle ground and pretending that the fag-paper difference between them is really as wide as the English Channel.
    A bit more honesty would help as well. Don’t try to pretend the Conservatives are Eurosceptic when their leader says he wants to stay in the EU and has only offered a referendum after the party he described as fruitcakes and loonies gains popularity.

  21. zorro
    Posted October 12, 2014 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    John, if you held a competition for the most ridiculous three line post you have ever typed on this blog, this would definitely win first prize!

    zorro

  22. Steve Cox
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 4:45 am | Permalink

    Personally I don’t think it’s the Westminster parties that are the problem or that UKIP really meant that if they said it. The problem to my mind is the so-called Westminster Bubble, an inward-looking group of lawmakers with little experience of the problems faced by ordinary people and whose attention is almost solely focused on what they themselves perceive to be the big issues (gay marriage, more overseas aid, more wind farms, etc.). There have always been some exceptional MP’s who were above the Westminster Bubble, your good self, John, and Douglas Carswell being two noteworthy examples. While the current Conservative, Lib Dem and Labour leaderships ares most definitely happy and comfortable denizens of the Bubble, you certainly can’t accuse UKIP of the same failing – not at the moment anyway.

  23. Roy Grainger
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    You are right in the sense that the backgrounds of the main UKIP politicians are indistinguishable from those of the other two parties and this renders their claim to be outside the Westminster establishment frankly absurd. However they are not a political party like the others, they are a pressure group, and it appears a very successful one. For this reason it does not much matter that (for example) their economic policy is incoherent (in favour of bedroom “tax” repeal, possibly in favour of flat tax, possibly not etc.).

  24. David Murfin
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    One of the features of the “Westminster Parties” (which I take to mean Conservative, Labour and LibDem) is that they each have a substantial number of MPs who form a group with ready access to the leadership to influence party policy, but modified by the hope of advancement to ministerial office and control by the whips.
    The downside is that this risks introversion and constituency representatives being too submissive to the leadership, especially when the party forms the government.
    UKIP has a long way to go to become one of the “Westminster Parties”.

  25. Max Dunbar
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    There is some truth in what you say but UKIP represent the old establishment (pre-multicultural Britain) to a degree, and therefore could be described as counter-revolutionaries. That is why they appeal to both Labour and Conservative voters.

  26. ChrisS
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    I see the proposed format of the leader’s debates has just been announced :

    One head-to-head debate between the “two leaders who could become prime minister”, Conservative Mr Cameron and Labour’s Ed Miliband, on Sky and Channel 4 and chaired by Jeremy Paxman. ( by far the best Chairman of the three )

    Another, also to include the Liberal Democrat leader, to be hosted by David Dimbleby, on BBC TV, radio and online

    Another debate, on ITV and chaired by Julie Etchingham, featuring the leaders of the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats and UK Independence Party

    Obviously only two of these debatesd will be of real interest and neither will be on the BBC ! Predictably Aunty just couldn’t bring themselves to include Nigel Farage in their debate but the loveys simply had to include Clegg.

    Why isn’t the ITV debate being chaired by the excellent Tom Bradby ?

  27. Ken Adams
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    UKIP are represented in the EU parliament does that make the pro the EU? Given their history there they will use their position in Westminster to point out the deficiencies in that place.

  28. Paul
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    UKIP has certainly now become one of those ”Westminster Parties” and about time too! The difference is that UKIP is there for the right reason (for the good of the country), while the majority of MPs from other parties are in it for themselves. What a breath of fresh air it is to see two MPs demonstrating such courage and proving they actually care about this country. While I appreciate your efforts and consistency on EU matters John, I feel that us Eurosceptics have to get behind UKIP. Lib/Lab/Con have let us down for far too long. Nigel Farage is absolutely right – the only way forward is for UKIP to win enough MPs at the next general election so we can force a referendum next year. 2017 is far too long to wait and won’t happen anyway because the Conservatives will have to pull off a miracle to win a majority. I have no doubt Mr Reckless will become the second UKIP MP in a few weeks time, we now have to hope that a few more Conservative/Labour MPs will see sense and cross the floor.

  29. BobE
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Ukip might take 100 seats I heard yesterday.

  30. Mondeo Man
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps we’d find out a lot more about Nigel Farage if David Cameron would do a one-on-one TV debate with him as Nick Clegg did.

    Why ever not ? I’m sure Mr Cameron is more than capable of putting this upstart in his place – after all, it is your party which is posed with the biggest threat by UKIP.

    Mr Cameron could see off this potentially lethal threat in a hour’s work.

    So why won’t he ?

    It would have to be one-on-one remember (minus studio audience.) The proposed four-leaders’ debate would smack of ganging up, otherwise – and we defecting Tories are leaving because of your leadership, not Labour’s or the LibDem’s.

  31. Fairweather
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    That’s extremely disingenuous John (compare with Douglas’ s acceptance speech)
    This continuous HATRED is counter productive

  32. Robert Taggart
    Posted October 13, 2014 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Indeed Johnny it does, but, not to the same extent – yet.
    Whatever, one trusts you will make your ‘soul mate’ welcome ? – for our sake !

  33. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted October 14, 2014 at 3:49 am | Permalink

    UKIP must be a Westminster party for you cannot believe a word it utters.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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