If you believe in a united Europe, as many of our EU advocates clearly do, you should feel as strongly about unemployed young people in Spain or poverty in Greece as you do about hardship in the UK. Labour and the Lib Dems say they like everything about our current level of EU integration, and like the EU as it is. If they ever remember to make a critical comment, it is not because they wish to change anything or intend to vote against any of its measures. This soon to expire Parliament has seen a complete absence of Labour opposition to any new laws or powers for the EU, just as they gave away so much power in 3 great Treaties when in government.
If the UK today had 50% youth unemployment as the south of Euroland currently suffers, Labour would never let us hear the end of it – and rightly so. If the UK had Greek levels of unemployment, and a Greek cost of living crisis which has depressed average real incomes by almost a quarter since 2007, again we would not hear the end of it, as Labour would rightly think it completely unacceptable. So why is it that these people who believe in pan European solidarity have nothing to say about the scandal of poverty and joblessness in large chunks of Euroland? Why are they not insisting on new policies for the EU?
Closer to home, Labour signed us up to a common energy policy. This energy policy with its dependence on renewables has locked us into much dearer electricity than competitor economies in the Americas and Asia. It is leading to the loss of industry in the UK and elsewhere in the EU. It is making it more difficult for people to afford their fuel bills. Again, why is there no criticism of the EU’s dear energy as Labour rightly condemns what they call fuel poverty, and dislike any impact from dearer energy on the cost and standard of living.
If you are a true supporter of a more united Europe, you should regard the loss of a job in Athens as seriously as you regard the loss of a job in a UK city. If you are an enthusiast for European solidarity and common working, you should be as aggressive in condemning poverty and unemployment on the continent as at home. If EU government through its energy scheme and through its common currency on the continent lies behind joblessness and poverty, why is it not criticised? Why is there no radical campaign for change? What socialist thinks Greek or Spanish economic policy is acceptable? Who would exchange our policy for theirs?
I will not believe UK politicians really understand a united Europe until they do raise the plight of the unemployed and unfortunate in Athens or Madrid as strongly as they would the plight of people in the UK.
March 15, 2015
There are a lot of MPs who do not understand what it is like to work for the Average wage or Below, nor do they wish to spend much time in there company to find out.
This is why this section of voters who cannot usually bring themselves to vote Tory ( although they voted for Maggie) cannot now bring themselves to vote for Miliband, so this section may vote UKIP and take votes away from both main parties.
I voted UKIP in the Euro Elections to give the main parties a wake up call, I will vote Conservative in May as I want a EU Referendum, I hope the conservative get a majority, this time with regard to Europe Cameron needs to realise the power of Social Media when he return from the negotiation with the EU.
I hope the above come to pass Amen!!!!!!!!
March 15, 2015
I will vote UKIP. You cannot beleive a word Cameron says. He has failed to deliver on all main polices he got elected on and so he should by his own account be kicked out. There is no difference between the cartel and if you think he will deliver on a proper referendum you have lost leave of your senses.
JR is still trying to blame Lib Dems for Cameron’s failures. It w Cameron who chose to enter government with them, it was Cameron who got nothing in return for the the fiscal pact demanded by Merkel. He had opportunity to renegotiate changes and chose not to. He recently allowed £18 million pounds to promote closer union to the EU when he promised not to, he did not allow a debate on the EAW when he promised his MPs he would, he tried to deceive the public that he would not pay the £1.7 billion extra to the EU, even the the select committee announced last week Osborne could not support his claims. Then we have the human travesty of Libya. The country is now a basket case and Cameron should be held to account for his actions. Is this the way we bring about change of government? If you vote Tory do not expect change or delivery on Cameron’s promises. You can make this judgment by his actions over the last five years to date. All words and opposite actions. He is about changing his party not changing the EU.
March 15, 2015
@Hope; “JR is still trying to blame Lib Dems for Cameron’s failures.”
Is he, sounds more like he is blaming the failures on not getting an outright working majority in 2010, that was not the fault of the LDs, it was the fault of UKIP and they even boasted about causing in the days and weeks after.
Had it not been for UKIP the UK could well have had that referendum by now!
March 15, 2015
Not the fault of the LibDems, nor the fault of UKIP. It was the fault of the Tory party alone that they failed to attract enough votes – that’s the name of the game, Jerry, persuading people to vote for you, not assuming that you have some kind of entitlement to their votes throughout their natural lifetimes – and it does not reflect at all well on tribal Tory supporters to try to shift the blame onto others for their own failure, when the Labour government had messed up so badly that it should have been an easy task for any leading opposition party worth its salt to crush them.
March 15, 2015
It was entirely the fault of Cameron he ratted on cast iron, delivered a wet soft socialist, EUphile, greencrap agenda and let Nick Clegg have equal TV billing in the debate.
The country was crying out for a real Tory government.
March 16, 2015
I couldn’t agree more. Cameron is to blame. Just gone south for a holiday from Scotland. (Nice to get away from the Salmond/Sturgeon disease) only to find that all our friends are voting UKIP. They have all been Tory supporters in the past but have no faith in Cameron or Tory policies and are fed up with the high levels of immigration. Cameron has got to consider going in with Farage. Better that than Salmond. I note today that the Daily Mail are saying that free speech on racial issues is welcomed or should be but note that they were tearing into UKIP last week over their stance on race and employment etc. make up your minds!!!!!
March 15, 2015
What an extraordinary and contorted viewpoint! For me “Hope” has the right analysis if not all the answers.
March 15, 2015
@Denis Cooper; @Duyfken; UKIP disagrees with you all, otherwise why would they have boasted about causing the coalition, stop trying to revise history!
Denis, obviously one has to get ‘enough’ votes, but if there is a party intent on misleading people by promising an EU exit just to take votes from those parties actually able to deliver simple to boost their ego then it is very clear were blame lies.
As I’ve said before, UKIP could almost be described as the best friend of the EU by the way they are splitting the eurosceptic vote here in the UK.
March 16, 2015
Jerry, even if UKIP and others had been correct with such an analysis – which they would not have been, as I said at the time and have said since – the failure of the Tory party to win an overall majority would still remain the fault of the Tory party. Just as Tesco’s poor results are the fault of Tesco, not the fault of its competitors who have attracted away some custom from Tesco; and the Tory party is no more entitled to anyone’s vote than Tesco is entitled to anyone’s custom, that is what you have to grasp.
March 16, 2015
@Denis Cooper; The facts say your analysis is wrong, UKIP is the challenger party so they took votes on a promise that they knew they could not deliver – UKIP mislead at the very least. Want a referendum 0n EU membership, want to leave the EU, the ONLY party capable of delivering that in a month of Sundays are the Conservatives, like it or not, seeing that neither the Labour Party or the LDs -as a party of coalition, will not offer one.
March 17, 2015
How is it misleading for UKIP to say that if they were voted into government then they would take us out of the EU? It’s the primary objective of the party under its constitution, the reason for its existence. Whereas we know for sure that having taken us into the EU a Conservative government will fight tooth and nail to keep us in it, and will be prepared to employ whatever tactics it sees as necessary to achieve its objective; so why would any sane person who seriously wants the UK to leave the EU support a party with the diametrically opposite policy? Are you relying on the electorate being stupid, or ignorant, or what?
March 17, 2015
Denis Cooper; “How is it misleading for UKIP to say that if they were voted into government then they would take us out of the EU?”
I suppose it comes down to whether you’re a realist or a daydreamer…
March 15, 2015
Whether the blame is laid at the LD’s door, or at the door of ”no majority”, EU rules, or anything else, the fact is that none of the promises made by Cameron and his party in 2010 have been honoured.
I’m sure all the reasons JR cites are perfectly valid, but I do believe that where there’s a will there’s a way. Just look at the Scots if you want evidence of that. Clearly Tory promises are just election soundbites.
The bottom line, as always, is that none of our so-called elected representatives represent anything but themselves and their ambitions and interests.
That, Mr Redwood, is why none of the EU members care about unemployment in other EU countries. I doubt very much that they care about unemployment in their own constituencies. They just want to look like they care so they get votes and can therefore continue on their path to EU dollars.
If you want to see the true spirit of Europe, go to a couple of 6-Nations games. Lots of people getting on like a house on fire and singing their NATIONAL anthems so loud they go hoarse. The people of Europe would – for the most part – gladly help each other out. We don’t need the ******* EU to tell us how. I don’t think I’ve ever despised an organisation so vehemently. Although our current government is starting to come close.
March 15, 2015
DaveM; “Whether the blame is laid at the LD’s door, or at the door of ”no majority”, EU rules, or anything else, the fact is that none of the promises made by Cameron and his party in 2010 have been honoured.”/i>
That was obviously going to be the case from about 4am the morning after the night before, due to UKIP splitting the eurosceptic vote on the right. No party leader can deliver unless they have a working majority for themselves!
March 16, 2015
“where there’s a will there’s a way”
It has since emerged that during the negotiations on the coalition agreement the LibDems were pleasantly surprised by how little the Tories demanded, so the lack of will was there from the start.
March 15, 2015
Without UKIP a referendum would not be on the Conservative agenda, vague as it is.
March 15, 2015
Indeed that is certainly true, and could we trust Cameron to deliver with all the Ken Clark and Heseltine types that infect the party?
Clearly not given his past serial ratting and election throwing.
March 16, 2015
@Lifelogic; Well that all depends on how strong people like our host and others are within the party but with UKIP taking the eurosceptic votes, without a hope in hells chance of delivering even a pledge on car park charges never mind on the EU, they stand little chance of bolstering their numbers – even more so when some MPs close to their cause cross the floor because they then have the promise of more limelight being shone upon them…. Mr LL, you are mistaking cause and effect.
March 16, 2015
If the Conservatives had won any time between 1997 and the GFC of 2008 , the UK would have joined the Euro too .
The much (and not entirely fairly) maligned Ed Balls got the most important decision right – not to join the Euro zone .
Reply We most certainly would not have joined. I helped win that argument in the Tory party at the end of the 1990s.
March 15, 2015
Dear Jerry–Not so, or even close–Cameron only came up with his jam tomorrow referendum plan (even then he was forced) as a means of trying to win this May–He would never have voluntarily offered one–Even now given a quarter of a chance he will wriggle out–Two years is a long time in politics.
March 15, 2015
@A.Sedgwick; @Leslie Singleton; You mean the Tory eurosceptic didn’t exist before 2010?!…
March 16, 2015
Most “eurosceptic” Tory MPs are just “pseudosceptics”, as you well know. There are a few honourable exceptions, but only a few and they have little power within the party.
March 16, 2015
Denis Cooper; “Most “eurosceptic” Tory MPs are just “pseudosceptics,””
Compared to UKIP MEPs, MPs and supporters doing nothing more than daydream, believing that they can change the world by merely talking the talk but failing to walk the walk.
UKIP will still be claiming that the Tory party can’t deliver on a referendum at 06:59 hrs on the morning that the polling stations open for just such a referendum, it’s the only way UKIP can gain support, it’s in their DNA to rubbish the only party able to actually deliver.
March 17, 2015
Jerry, as apparently you don’t understand let me explain to you that the prefix “pseudo” doesn’t signify that “they mean what they say even if so far they are unable to achieve it”, it signifies that “they don’t mean what they say”, and that is why most Tory “eurosceptic” MPs are better characterised as “pseudosceptics”. Half a century of experience has shown this to be the case, however much you may deny it.
March 17, 2015
@Denis Cooper, Thanks for telling me what I already knew and for describing UKIP to a tee, they are “pseudo” politicians because they will not be in majority government and most likely not even the peace maker in a coalition -anyone who believes they might is truly living on another planet, they thus exist as a pseudo-political party because in reality the are nothing more than a protest group just as the Greens are.
March 18, 2015
Clearly you still don’t understand what is meant by “pseudo”, and I have limited time available to educate you …
March 19, 2015
Denis Cooper; “I have limited time available”
Pull the other one, how long does it take to cite a on-line source (about 30 seconds…);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pseudo-#English
pseudo-
false, not genuine, fake
pseudonym
Sorry to show you up again Denis! As I said, UKIP is a false, not genuine, fake political party, being actually nothing more than a protest group, no different from the Green Party.
March 15, 2015
I fail to see your reasoning on voting Tory this time. Remember that backbench MP’s have little or no power in Parliament, especially with the whipped system. Cameron is an avid Europhile. Mr Carswell has already told you that he intends to get minor concessions to pretend to the electorate that he has got significant reform to put to the people in a referendum. The reality will be a ” Chamberlain, peace in our time bent bananas reform” moment when the steam roller will go on to create their federal dream of a United States of Europe. Do you want an independent sovereign Nation where you can vote to remove the law makers if they displease you or a quisling LiblabCon Cartel pretending to enact laws from their beloved EU who now make 65% of our laws who bull our weak cartel and tell us what to do?
They are supporting mass migration from Europe and delaying the vote to ensure more Turkeys from abroad arrive who wont vote for Christmas!
We still have over 750,000 young people unemployed here who cannot find work as the low paid starter jobs are being taken in the main by Eastern Europeans. Is that right, fair or proper? So do something about it, as there is only one patriotic party.
March 15, 2015
Timaction; “I fail to see your reasoning on voting Tory this time. Remember that backbench MP’s have little or no power in Parliament, especially with the whipped system.”
Well at least they bother to turn up to debates, unlike the UKIP MPs it would seem!…
[my emphasis]
“Mr Carswell has already told you that he intends to get minor concessions to pretend to the electorate that he has got significant reform to put to the people in a referendum.”
Freudian slip perhaps?!… 🙂 What ever it was you are 100% correct, UKIP will promise the world and say anything – and often do, with the result of much backward peddling as we saw only last week from their leader.
“We still have over 750,000 young people unemployed here who cannot find work as the low paid starter jobs are being taken in the main by Eastern Europeans.”
If the migrants can get these jobs so can the young indigenous population.
March 15, 2015
Douglas Carswell was told by the Tory whips that this was/is Mr Camerons intention and was one of several reasons he left the Tory party.
The reasons for our youth not getting work are many and varied including poor state education provision. To be paying them to stay at home whilst not being able to discriminate in their favour is ridiculous. Foreign workers have driven down wages so that in some cases it doesn’t pay to work. Your answers would suggest you are not patriotic and favour mass migration and taxation for the benefit of foreign infrastructure, farmers and the EU dictatorship? I am not.
Argue with me on any policy of UKIP and you will fail. That’s why the legacy parties won’t debate us!
March 16, 2015
@Timaction; “To be paying [UK youth] to stay at home whilst not being able to discriminate in their favour is ridiculous.”
What do you not understand, these people do not want such jobs, if they did they would be working in those jobs, it is people like you and UKIP who are the ones encouraging our youth to stay at home with your constant scapegoating of migrants when you claim that they are “taking all the jobs” clap-trap.
“Argue with me on any policy of UKIP and you will fail. That’s why the legacy parties won’t debate us!”
Carry on finding scapegoats, you must think the majority of the population are uneducated fools and what do you not understand, there is the offer of a TV debate!
UKIP, the friend of the EU, keeping the “legacy” (if that is how you want to describe people such as our host) eurosceptics from having greater influence…
March 16, 2015
Guido ponta out today that Cameron ruled out a coalition with the Libe dems before the last election, he would,lead a minority government. Guess what happened? That is it, he did not keep to what he said.
March 16, 2015
@Hope: But no one was expecting the 2010 election result to be so close, it is one thing to lead a minority government but another to deliver, Jim Callaghan had problems in the late 1970s and he had a fair wind of support from other parties, had Cameron tried to lead a minority government having “snubbed” the possibility of a Con/Lib-dem coalition the chances of getting his first budget through would have been slim never mind anything else!
Unlike in ’74, when the “national emergency” was all to visible (or not as the case was…), I very much doubt that the electors would have been so happy to give the -now- governing party even a slim majority after having dismissed the possibility of forming a coalition themselves, even more so when Labour could have achieved a rather contrived coalition had push come to shove.
March 16, 2015
Totally agree with this.
March 17, 2015
@fedupsouthener; You totally agree with what? You comment could be in reply to four different comments!
March 15, 2015
Cameron very clearly intends to get minor concessions any pretend to the electorate that he has got significant reform to put to the people in a referendum.
Given his performance, record and ratting so for how can anyone rational think otherwise?
March 16, 2015
Pathetic, Jerry. It was clear enough who was meant by “he” in that sentence, I’m sure that everybody except you understood it.
March 16, 2015
@Denis Cooper; Indeed, just as most people understood Mr Cameron’s pledge on the Lisbon Treaty prior to its ratification by the previous government but that has not stopped UKIPers like you from trying to use it as a political weapon has it.
UKIPers are Typical; bullies, they like to dish the first but hate to have it returned…
March 17, 2015
They did understand it, Jerry, and that is why they wanted him to stick with the unqualified pledge he had given in his signed article in the Sun, and also in his speech at the Tory party conference, and why the Tory party lost a significant chunk of support after he caved in on November 4th 2009, and that in turn was one reason among others why the Tory party failed to win an overall majority at the last general election when by rights the Labour party should have been virtually annihilated.
March 17, 2015
Denis Cooper; “They did understand it, Jerry, and that is why they wanted him to stick with the unqualified pledge he had given in his signed article in the Sun”
Well if “they” did you Denis most certainly do not, and that might be why “they” ended up voting for almost any other party but UKIP in 2010.
How does a EU member country hold a referendum on ratifying a treaty if that treaty has already been ratified by the countries parliament, not only that but has also become EU law by the time of the proposed referendum, to do so would amount to a referendum on EU membership – something that Cameron had not pledged at that time!
Denis, for all the endless web searching you seem to do for Url’s that you then post here (and elsewhere,,,), that you can be used to back up your assertions, you certainly do not seem to actually understand much. 🙁
March 18, 2015
Carry on, Jerry, and soon we’ll see the Tory party lose the next election like they lost the last one.
March 20, 2015
Denis Cooper; “the Tory party lose the next election”
They will is eurosceptics vote UKIP!
” like they lost the last one.”
Denis, you really are not very good at percentages are you, the Tory party actually won the last election, just not with quite enough MPs to form a majority government, mostly due to loosing votes to UKIP, remind me how many MPs UKIP got elected in 2010?… Vote UKIP get a europhile coalition!
March 16, 2015
Jerry,
“If the migrants can get these jobs so can the young indigenous population”
They can’t, though – my daughter’s been looking for a job for 8 months, and all the traditional student jobs which she might have done a few years ago are taken by migrants. So as well as having a big student debt when she starts full-time work, the government has also handicapped her during her studies.
March 17, 2015
@DaveM; Yes, part time work can be scarce, but that’s been true for at least 40 years, unfortunately many businesses now operate for the full 52 weeks of the year and thus need mostly full time staff. The hotel and tourist service industry in my part of the UK used to be very much a Easter to mid September affair with perhaps a couple of weeks at Christmas but for the last ten years or so it’s been the full year, whilst the local agriculture sector has with the increase in forced crops (grown under glass and poly-tunnels etc.) have also become largely full time, full year employment rather than seasonal and perhaps more so with the increased need to have proper training for chemicals and machinery.
Of course the real problem are the tuition fees financed via student loans rather than a grant system…
March 16, 2015
Jerry ,
Quote “If the migrants can get these jobs so can the young indigenous population.”
The migrants are go-getters , frequently over-qualified , younger , fresher , without dependents , speaking multiple languages .
The Briton’s who would do these jobs are at the bottom of the foodchain and often 40+ years of age with families – not young .
This is an unfair fight which is why these jobs need to be reserved for Briton’s a la UKIP’s points system .
Briton’s are committing suicide because of the hopelessness of their situation which is compounded by allowing in (albeit very fine) people to take their jobs .
Why do you persist with your claims when this has been pointed out time and again to you ?
March 17, 2015
@ADS; Thanks for detailing why UK employers prefer migrants!
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for all those unemployed who want a job but no employer is going to go out of their way to employ non disabled people these days, and as I’ve said before all the time people like UKIP find a scapegoat these indigenous job seekers will carry on believing that they can’t do anything more to help themselves.
“This is an unfair fight which is why these jobs need to be reserved for Briton’s a la UKIP’s points system .”
But hang on, I though you said these people are being over looked because they are not “go-getters , frequently over-qualified , younger , fresher , without dependants , speaking multiple languages”, why would any business who needs such quality want to have to do with out, what you might find is that there is still no such work as the businesses themselves migrate off-shore?
So unless UKIP are also planning on trade barriers to prevent UK businesses from off-shoring their production and simply operating a “just-in-time” warehouse in the UK, assuming they even need to do that….
March 15, 2015
Anyone who voted UKIP in the European Elections should realize how badly they wasted their vote. The failure of the elected UKIP members to play any part in the parliament is a disgrace. They at least have a chance to influence the sort of issues that John raised above and have refused to do even that.
I can understand the UKIP members wanting to vote in a manner consistent with their aim of exiting the EU but to not partake in helping the poor and suffering in Europe is a disgrace.
March 15, 2015
May I suggest you get your facts right before writing such utter tosh.
March 15, 2015
Absolute rubbish. Try reading Roger Helmer.
March 15, 2015
@Brian Tomkinson; What facts does Brian have wrong?
@Ian wragg; So people should read the comments by a UKIP MEP, he is hardly going to be of ‘independent opinion’, is he? Hmm!…
March 15, 2015
Jerry
The “facts” that behind the frogs has got wrong are
.”The failure of the elected UKIP members to play any part in the parliament”
I’m not a UKIP supporter but this is moonshine, they failed to attend ONE session. Would you like a list of Tories who repeatedly fail to turn up?
March 16, 2015
@libertarian; That issue has been debated elsewhere on this site and the UKIPers lost, or at least have not managed to proved any evidence as to why the two UKIP MPs failed to attend three debates [1] with the EU central to the subject. On the other hand our host has explained why more Tory MPs didn’t attend, those reasons would not have affected UKIP as I’m sure had they turned up for the start of the debates the speaker (or Chair) would have made sure that at least one UKIP member spoke during the allocated time for debate.
[1] there was another in Westminster Hall that UKIP appear to have failed to attend also
March 15, 2015
Have you just arrived from another planet. The ONLY party who will get us out of the EU is UKIP. They are the only party to advocate this. Our host is one of a few in a Europhile Party in a Europhile Westminster who signed us up to the existing nightmare treaties by lies and stealth. Please note that Cameron has dropped his renegotiation of free movement as our unelected leaders Junker, Merkel and Holland have instructed him so. Mass migration, reducing health provision, school places and building on the greenbelt will therefore increase. Wake up and smell the coffee, Westminster are agents of the EU. Read debates from Hansard if you are in any doubt.
March 15, 2015
Exactly.
March 15, 2015
You are rather over optimistic given Cameron’s record of doing the complete opposite to his promises to the electorate. He is genetically a tax borrow and waste, EUphile/spin doctor/PR gimmicks/greencrap believer/come bent second hand car dealer all rolled into one.
He is however just slightly better than two kitchens. Mainly as he has a sensible JR wing of perhaps just 100 MPs.
March 15, 2015
@LL; “better than two kitchens [referring to the reports that Mr & Mrs Miliband have two kitchens]
What the… If that is the best the right wing press can do! 🙁
March 15, 2015
It was a delight to see a staged PR attempt go badly wrong.
Milliband in his little kitchen, clutching his mug of tea, dressed like average Joe, trying to appear like a man of the people, with his wife by him, all warm and cosy and then it falls apart when we find out the room is a tiny second “kitchenette” in his London mansion worth millions.
The real kitchen somewhere else on another floor.
We know you are a rich Londoner Ed and we don’t mind.
Just stop trying to be someone you are not.
So well done the “right wing press” for exposing this bit of nonsense.
March 15, 2015
@Edward2; “So well done the “right wing press” for exposing this bit of nonsense.
Except that it only appeals to a certain type who are very much in the minority, for the majority (even those on the right, who might well not only have two or more kitchens but two or more house!) it is a total turn off, how many even average houses now have more than the one kitchen due to having a self contained annex but still an integral part of the main house for example.
March 15, 2015
I realise that you are programmed to reply pedantically to almost every post on here Jerry, but are you claiming that facts I outlined are wrong?
March 16, 2015
@Edward2; “are you claiming that facts I outlined are wrong?”
I’m saying they are irrelevant to the vast majority, just as the fact that Mr Farage has a German born wife is etc.
Stop coming over as an old style angry socialist, complete with a chip on your shoulder about the size or value of someone’s house. In any case people don’t exactly have to have a “mansion” in London for it to be worth millions these days, in some locations a Victorian two up-two down can be worth more than a million. Are you sure you shouldn’t be voting SLP rather than UKIP?!
March 17, 2015
My objection Jeery, is simply with politicians setting up a photo opportunity which is a false image of reality.
My delight is when this is found out.
I have no envy of others much better off than me.
Unlike some on here.
March 17, 2015
@Edward2; “politicians setting up a photo opportunity”
Yeah, that is why you are oh so critical of Europhobes setting up such photo ops or playing to the camera or microphone…
But yes these “photo ops” are getting rather daft, but the reason I’m sceptical about your intentions above is that you never ’round’ your criticisms to include all those who engage in such publicity,you’re never critical of Europhobes setting up such photo ops, playing to the TV camera or microphone etc. The same is true when you (like others) freely criticise the BBC for something but fail to mention that the other three terrestrial TV broadcasters (and some satellite channels) have done the same or that non discretionary that public money has funded it on those channels too. Try being critical of those you like, not just those you despise when both are wearing the same hat.
March 15, 2015
Jerry
Well personally ,and Bazman would agree on this point , think wealthy public school toffs ought to really pay a second kitchen tax, I mean what about the millions of people who don’t own a kitchen, what about all the millions of below minimum wage workers being forced to rent at vast expense a kitchenette ?
Or here’s a thing why don’t all the people faced with a bedroom tax turn one of them into a second kitchen? Maybe we could hand out grants to convert unused bedrooms into snack preparation kitchens. I mean its a basic right innit yer snack prep kitchen or is it only the 1% that need to make tea without walking to the main food preparation complex?
March 15, 2015
And if the Tories win the election and give us a Referendum (which is not certain), what kind of a Referendum do you think they’ll give us? It will be so conditional that most voters will not fully comprehend what is being offered. That, together with the combined forces of the leadership of the main parties and the media campaigning against thoughts of withdrawing from the EU will be enough to ensure a NO vote. I will continue to vote UKIP although I am not hopeful that it will make any difference but I will, at least, have tried.
March 15, 2015
You make a very good points indeed. But EUphiles, socialists, Libdum, half the Tory party and the greens just work on irrational emotions, dreams and envy. Logic and reason have nothing to do with it. They essentially hold immovable belief systems & religions. Pointing out the realities makes not a jot of difference. They just like the sounds of words such as wave, tidal, lagoons, wind, clean energy, solar energy, equality, human rights …. pointing out the reality to them just makes them switch off their brains and cover their ears.
One of the main characteristics of someone who believes in green energy is a total absence of any numerical or economic knowledge of energy production systems – indeed a lack of any science in general beyond a few words and phrases they have learned. Thinks like better insulation, combined heat and power, bicycles, railways, public transport they have not got a clue about the numbers and realities of them. They have swallowed all the drivel that comes from Ed Davey and endlessly from the BBC whole.
There hold a similar religion about the EU coming together in this nightmare, left wind, undemocratic superstate. They conflate the EU with Europe. If you are against they dreadful EU you are against Europe. The opposite is the reality. EURO skeptics often love Europe but hate the EU and the appalling damage it is doing.
What happened to the more sensible and thoughtful (at least in some ways) Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Barbara Castle, Eric Varley types who were against the EU in the referendum on the “Common Market” did no one come up to replace them in the modern Labour party?
March 16, 2015
Ha,ha,ha. Don’t talk about crap green energy to me please. Just got back from Sussex to Scotland to hear that Scotland will be the most ‘turbine crowded country’ in the world!!!!! Salmond eat your heart out. What a legacy!! And we are in danger of these mad men helping to ruling the UK!!!!! I despair. Bet all those workers at Longannet are looking forward to their redundancy payments.
March 16, 2015
And as we flew over Glasgow tonight it was interesting how many people were pointing out that the numerous (hundreds) of wind turbines were not moving!!! How’s that for contributing to the national grid???
March 15, 2015
Because they are zealots whose dream for Europe is willing to accept any hardship it meets for the sake of the end result. Providing the hardship is suffered by someone else. Their game plan is much the same as that of Lenin and Trotsky in 1917. Do not forget to include among them the 200 plus members of your own party who are content to follow CMD over the cliff.
In the case of energy policy, Milliband, one of the architects of the current green energy policy, suffers convenient amnesia when criticising the current result of crazily high prices.
Believe me, socialists in Greece and Spain are highly critical of the attitude of Brussels to their plight. I liken the attitude of our Lib/Dems, Labour, and two thirds of the conservative party to that of the UK and French government of 1937 when they could not interpret the fascist civil war in Spain as the beginning of something much greater that would engulf the whole of Europe. The current Plan “A” in Brussels will have a dire effect in many areas of Europe if it is not changed.
Our game plan should be to offer wise council from outside the EU. Yesterday you asked us to express our budget dreams. My UK political dream is that the 100 anti EU members of your party realise that renegotiation is a myth at present because Brussels is detached from the reality of their Europe, and then follow Carswell and Reckless into UKIP. Returning to 1937, UKIP like Churchill are the only ones reading it as it is and offering an honest solution. I will still vote for my one of the 100 because he is also a good MP.
March 15, 2015
If you have a peoples party rep you should follow both your heart and head as we,re getting closer to the end game for the very existence of our Nation, its people, culture and history. The Tories went left to the Liberals some time ago and are no longer a Conservative Party. Windmills, foreign aid, gay marriage, human rights, EU, mass migration. Nothing will change under the Tories. Judge CMD by his record as he told us to at the last election. I foolishly voted for him. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!
March 16, 2015
When it comes to crazy high prices for green energy let’s not forget that Scotland’s waste lands of turbines are all paid for by energy users in the whole of the UK!!! Not just in Scotland. All this is about is getting money for ‘community benefit’ in Scotland paid for by the English and Welsh and this will only escalate because the SNP are obsessed by wind energy.
March 15, 2015
Well they do say they are against ‘austerity’. The left wing Labour MP Peter Hain for example welcomed Siriza’s election in Greece as if there was some magic socialist solution to the problems there. Mr Miliband and others welcomed the election of socialist President Hollande in 2012 although they don’t mention that now that’s it’s obvious France is a disaster and Hollande is also now obliged to impose ‘austerity’. The problem with these euro federalist leftists is their denial of market economics and belief in state planning, regulation, high taxes etc as the cure for all evils. I suppose that why an overwheening statist bureaucracy like the EU must look attractive to Labour-LibDem types. Those who believe in the power of free markets to better people’s lives should favour a relationship of friendly trade based independence between European countries, with democracy remaining at the national level.
March 15, 2015
@Richard1; “The left wing Labour MP Peter Hain for example welcomed Siriza’s election in Greece as if there was some magic socialist solution to the problems there.”
Well Siriza might not be the solution but they have been the wake-up call the EU/ECB and Germany needed to the plight of Greece, another year and it might not have been a political group but a revolution the EU had to negotiate with…
Oh and President Hollande was elected in France for totally non economic or political reasons – ‘nough said!…
March 15, 2015
I agree with Richard I: I get very bored with lefties who bemoan high levels of unemployment in the EU periphery without telling us what their solution is. Indeed, John Redwood makes that mistake in the above article.
As to Richard I’s claim that lefties’ fault “is their denial of market economics”, the age old “free market versus central planning” argument is largely separate from deciding how best to run the EZ. I.e. each country in the EU can and does have plenty of flexibility as to where it lies on the left/right scale: that flexibility is not incompatible with a more rational way of running the EU as a whole.
Reply I have often explained what needs to be done to ease unemployment – either put in large transfers of cash between rich and poor, or break up the zone!
March 15, 2015
Impeccable logic, Dr JR. Labour have absolutely no excuse for their callous disregard of the workers of fellow EU states. Oh, wait. Labour no longer represents the working class. Labour’s constituency is now the tertiary educated urban dwellers who like to adopt positions of moral superiority in their politics. But somehow the moral outrage of shocking youth unemployment in Greece, Italy and Spain doesn’t register. A genuine mystery perhaps, or possibly further evidence of the hypocrisy of the educated Left.
March 15, 2015
“If you are a true supporter of a more united Europe, you should regard the loss of a job in Athens as seriously as you regard the loss of a job in a UK city.”
And I do. But that’s because I am anti EU and see the consequences for Britain.
What it means is that we in Britain must not only create jobs, housing, welfare for ourselves but for the refugees of Europe too.
March 15, 2015
I believe the answer to your questions John is that Labour is no longer the party for the working man.
There is a ‘gap in the market’ for someone to represent the working man and there are votes begging.
Why has this gap appeared?
My answer, for what it is worth can be demonstrated in the many laws and policies that have had no popular groundswell but have come about due to media and pressure group campaigns. Politicians, not just in the UK, but across Europe, confuse popular opinion with the views expressed on the tv (I believe most European countries have their versions of the BBC).
So, for example, as a result of BBC campaigning, we end up with a gay marriage bill for which there was no popular clamour.
Far more dangerous is the view that moderate Muslims “are not speaking out” against terrorists. Since when were moderate Muslims given a platform on the BBC? How can they speak out if they are not given a voice? All we hear from on the BBC is its favourite extremists. Muslims are all tarred with the same brush because of this dangerous lack of representation.
This also goes for most working families.
There is a chasm between the real world and the extremist views of those on the BBC, Channel 4 news and even Sky news who have a very warped and perverted view of the world but, unfortunately, have the power to change laws.
That means, even if a eu referendum were called in this year, we are most likely to vote to stay in as the ‘mainstream’ media will be working alongside the ‘mainstream’ parties to groom us with their propaganda.
Until we have a plural media I think we will be subject to laws and policies we never wanted.
March 15, 2015
Kenneth; “I believe the answer to your questions John is that Labour is no longer the party for the working man.”
Indeed but that is not the fault of the Labour Party, it has been -by design or accident- the effect of the anti union laws and rhetoric since 1979.
“So, for example, as a result of BBC campaigning, we end up with a gay marriage bill for which there was no popular clamour.”
Says who, and why single out the BBC (other than its a usual fall-guy on here), I seem to recall Ch4 being far more pushy, whilst I suspect that most peoples attitude way from the right wing Daily Maul type press was indifference.
“That means, even if a eu referendum were called in this year, we are most likely to vote to stay in as the ‘mainstream’ media will be working alongside the ‘mainstream’ parties to groom us with their propaganda.”
I bet if the MSM were “grooming us with their propaganda” to leave the EU you and many on here would be in full support! I’m also sceptical just how influence the MSM will have when it comes to either elections or referendums, far more likely it will be websites and direct leafleting.
March 15, 2015
“There is a ‘gap in the market’ for someone to represent the working man”
And that is where UKIP has picked up most of the second half of its support.
Most of the first half, the 7% or so support UKIP gained up to about two years ago, had come from people who had usually supported the Tories but had become irredeemably disillusioned with that party; but most of the second half since then, the next 7% or so, has come from erstwhile Labour supporters.
That is obvious from the opinion poll charts since May 2010:
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/polls.html
As it is also obvious that it has mainly been UKIP pulling down Labour which has eroded their previous 10% lead over the Tories, so that now they are now more or less on level pegging even though the Tories have stood still.
It’s one of the weird things about the current political discourse in the media that it is so widely assumed that the rise of UKIP is scuppering the Tories’ chances of getting a majority in May, when the reality is that without UKIP pulling support away from Labour the Tories would not even have a chance of emerging as the largest party, let alone getting an overall majority.
And another weird thing is that the Tories apparently believe that it is also a good idea to beat the LibDems into the ground, when the evidence is that people who are put off from voting for LibDem candidates are much more likely to switch their support to Labour candidates than to Tory candidates.
March 15, 2015
@Denis Cooper; “And that is where UKIP has picked up most of the second half of its support. “
We know were the disaffected “working man” Labour support went in 2010, and that was to the LDs, judging by the opinion polling that support has either gone back to Labour or moved on to the Greens. Who knows from were UKIP are gaining support, after all they only ask their paid-up members about previous political affiliations, not their supporters…
March 15, 2015
From all parties in my branch Jerry. Invariably knowledgeable people who know they’ve been fooled by the legacy cartel for 40 years. Have had enough and are doing something about it for the sake of their families and friends.
This Country is heading for disaster without sensible people in charge. Just look at the decision making of the legacy party leaders. Enough said!
March 16, 2015
You’ve been shown the opinion poll charts before and now I have offered the link again, so I suppose you could take time off from posting scattergun comments and actually look at them.
March 16, 2015
Denis Cooper; “you’ve been shown the opinion poll”
That would be why Labour and the Conservatives are neck-and-neck on around 33% but UKIP are down at 15%, because vast numbers of both labour and Tory votes are switching to UKIP. If you think that anyone will be switching from either the LDs or Greens to UKIP you really are on a different planet!
Denis I also suggest that you look more closely at the chart you referenced, it clearly shows a dip in support for UKIP since about Oct 2014, with gains to both Lab and Con, the LDs are loosing support to the Greens (with the LDs immediate post 2010 loss of support clearly went to Lab). Thus it is clear that if the “Working Man” toyed with UKIP between 2010 and the end of 2014 they are changing their minds, switching back to either Con or Lab.
“posting scattergun comments
Some of us are far more abreast of the real world Denis, and unlike you we look at a broad cross section of information, not just content that agrees with a pre-held opinion, the only person posting scatter-gun comments is you.
March 17, 2015
“That would be why Labour and the Conservatives are neck-and-neck on around 33% but UKIP are down at 15%, because vast numbers of both labour and Tory votes are switching to UKIP.”
As pointed out above, the reason that Labour and the Tories are now neck-and-neck is not because the Tories have been successful in attracting more support – they are still roughly where they were two years ago – but because Labour has lost 10% support over the same period, down from its peak of about 43% to about 33%.
And where has that 10% of support gone? Well, do you see that purple line trending up as the red line has trended down? There’s your answer, much of the support lost by Labour has gone to UKIP and little to the Tory party.
And what is so strange about the idea that some erstwhile Labour supporters have now given up on that party as not representing their interests, just as some erstwhile Tory supporters have given up on the Tory party?
“Denis I also suggest that you look more closely at the chart you referenced, it clearly shows a dip in support for UKIP since about Oct 2014 … ”
Jerry, if you’d been paying proper attention you’d know that I’ve posted a month-by-month running commentary on the evolution of the opinion polls, including the increasingly strong indications that the eurofederalists’ orchestrated campaign to vilify UKIP has been successful in stemming the rising tide of its support.
Here on November 7th:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2014/11/07/no-to-1-7-billion-must-mean-no/
and here on December 1st:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2014/12/01/the-deficit-is-higher-but-spending-is-within-the-original-plans-from-2010/
and here on January 4th:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2015/01/04/economic-opportunity/
and here on February 5th:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2015/02/05/greek-brinkmanship/
and most recently here on March 2nd:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2015/03/02/why-did-the-imf-lend-so-much-to-greece/
“Some of us are far more abreast of the real world”
That really makes me laugh, Jerry, when your view of the electoral impact of UKIP is years out of date.
March 17, 2015
@Denis Cooper; And where has that 10% of support gone? Well, do you see that purple line trending up as the red line has trended down? There’s your answer, much of the support lost by Labour has gone to UKIP and little to the Tory party.
That chart shows nothing of the sort, once again Denis you have been found out, posting URL’s that you have never looked at with any great care, openness or analysis, seeing only what you want to see. 🙁
What about people previously undecided, what about those who have expressed an opinion that they would not be voting, and yet you still miss the bigger picture, UKIP are not going to be the next government and unlikely to even be peace makers, and thus a vote for UKIP will be a wasted vote if you want a EU referendum, of course if you want a very pro-EU government carry on – UKIP, the best friend of the Brussels eurocrats!
orchestrated campaign to vilify UKIP
You mean just like UKIP have been engaging in an orchestrated campaign to vilify anyone who dares to speak against UKIP, oh dear are people giving UKIP a taste of their own, are they being nasty to them, diddums…
Jerry, when your view of the electoral impact of UKIP is years out of date.”
Oh look, the filthy pots and pans are trying to call the kettle dusty again…
March 17, 2015
Perhaps you are colour blind, and you cannot see that there is a red line trending downwards over the past two years while a purple line has been trending upwards … on the other hand, it seems you can see that earlier there was a yellow line trending downwards while a red line was trending up – “with the LDs immediate post 2010 loss of support clearly went to Lab” – so there must some other explanation for your refusal to accept the evidence put before your eyes.
March 18, 2015
@Denis Cooper; You seem to be having great difficulty yourself in seeing anything other than what you want to see, try looking at the right hand side of that graphic, see the downward slope as UKIP loose support from about Sept. ’14 on, this in the run up to the GE (which naturally concentrates peoples minds) whilst both the Con and Lab parties have been gaining support in the month since, what support UKIP had in 2013 is irrelevant -you might as well be citing polling figures from 2005, a mere six weeks from polling day!
Just because people flirt with supporting another party between elections, perhaps even voting for such parties at by-elections, doesn’t mean that come the GE they will stay, voters more often than not revert back to their old party, the SDP suffered from this in the 1980s.
March 15, 2015
The answer is simple !
We don’t have a United Europe.
In fact, thanks to the actions of Brussels and the disaster that is the Euro, Europe is more disunited now than it has been simce the founding of the Coal and Steel Community.
Put simply, German taxpayers are not prepared to put their hands in their pockets and hand over many billionsof Euros to rescue the economy of the Club Med countries whose only salvation can come from a devaluation in order to become remotely competitive.
German politicians and their industrial supporters have ruthlessly pursued the Euro project only because it kept their industry competitive by surpressing the natural appreciation that would have taken place if they had retained the D.Mark.
All these conflicting pressures are coming to a head and nobody is doing anything about it.
It will inevitably end in tears and a break up of the single currency.
March 15, 2015
“This soon to expire Parliament has seen a complete absence of Labour opposition to any new laws or powers for the EU, just as they gave away so much power in 3 great Treaties when in government.”
Well, strictly speaking it hasn’t been a “complete” absence of opposition from the Labour side, because there are a small number of backbench Labour MPs who don’t follow the party line on the EU and from time to time some of them have not only said so but have voted with the larger number of Tory rebels against their own party whips. But as we know even that larger number of Tory opponents of the EU is itself small, they are a small dissident minority in a Tory parliamentary party which is overwhelmingly and in many cases incorrigibly pro-EU.
It is beyond dispute that Labour did give away a lot of power through the Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon treaties, but it is also beyond dispute that Labour were only travelling further along the path previously set by the Tories through the original Treaty of Rome, the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty on European Union; the Tories could have stuck to their guns and gone into the 2010 general election pledging to put the Lisbon Treaty to the referendum which Labour had denied – citing the precedents set by the Tories, mind – but Cameron caved in on that on November 4th 2009; and when it came to the major EU treaty change demanded by Merkel in 2010 there was virtually no opposition to that anywhere in the Commons or indeed the Lords, even though Cameron had failed to ask for anything substantive in return for his assent, and nor was there a referendum on it because Hague had carefully written his so-called “referendum lock” law to enable the government to dodge unwanted referendums including that one.
March 15, 2015
“If you are a true supporter of a more united Europe, you should regard the loss of a job in Athens as seriously as you regard the loss of a job in a UK city.”
Exactly right. But those supporting the EU in the Labour party don’t want to talk about it. Ed Miliband has had nothing at all to say on the Greek debt problem, or the election of their Syriza government, beyond saying that its a matter for the Greeks to elect their government and conduct their own negotiations.
Does Ed Miliband think the situation is all down to lazy Greeks? He won’t say. There’s nothing on the main Labour website, Labourlist, about this very important issue other than one writer who admitted to having “mixed feelings” about the election of Syriza. Those in the Labour Party don’t have the courage of their convictions any longer. They are determined to view the EU through rose coloured spectacles.
Those on this blog may have disagreed with Tony Benn, who died one year ago today incidentally, on many issues but he’s turned out to be exactly right about the EU.
March 15, 2015
@petermartin2001; “But those supporting the EU in the Labour party don’t want to talk about it”
Or they simply have very few opportunities to do so within the UK parliament, the timetable being largely in the hands of the government and the backbench committee, what days the Labour party had being judged better spent on purely UK issues perhaps. But yet the LDs, the most europhile party at Westminster also spent little time debating the European unemployment problems either and they are in government and could have pushed the issue.
“Those on this blog may have disagreed with Tony Benn, who died one year ago today incidentally, on many issues but he’s turned out to be exactly right about the EU.”
Indeed, and not only the EU but Iraq, the state of the banking industry prior to the crash, socially cohesion and so on, we might not have liked his “solutions” but he understood the issues.
March 15, 2015
Peter
Quite right about Tony Benn. There were numerous ways I disagreed with him but at least he was adamant that politicians should be accountable and we should be able to vote them out.
March 15, 2015
Perhaps the Europhiles see fulfillment of the EU dream as worth any price, and certainly the suffering of Greece is one they seem to view as well worth paying, albeit in absentia for most of them are not Greek of course.
The really shocking thing is that the Greeks and others facing similar plight seem to see the EU as their never to be renounced saviour.
March 15, 2015
@formula57; “Perhaps the Europhiles see fulfillment of the EU dream as worth any price, and certainly the suffering of Greece [etc.]”
The way UKIP MEPs carry on within the EU parliament on-lookers might be excused mistaking their concern for gloating, after all they have been willing a collapse of the Euro ever since Black Wednesday, if not before.
“The really shocking thing is that the Greeks and others facing similar plight seem to see the EU as their never to be renounced saviour.”
Well all the time the EU/ECB keep up the pretence of the EZ (and that unspoken eventual Euro-federalism) of course they will, after all ‘our debt is your debt’…
March 15, 2015
JR: “If you believe in a united Europe, as many of our EU advocates clearly do”
Yes, but they will never admit it. They would rather perpetuate the lie that such an idea is not at all what the EU is seeking. They have seen success by lying to the British people for over 40 years and won’t want to change now.
People who are prepared to lie and deceive their own people shouldn’t be expected to have any regard for the plight of those living elsewhere within their dream of a country called Europe.
March 15, 2015
I am not and never have been a supporter of the EU . I have often referred to the too varied nature of the member countries ( the ethnicity , the economies and varying objectives ) in the past . Attempting to impose a unified state on top of these differences is like Jeremy Clarkson believing he is the best news ever to the motor world .
There is only one solution for us and that is to get out of it . We must re-establish controls over our own affairs and the dignity of independence . Those who argue that we must retain a seat at the centre of Europe in order to maintain a voice in world affairs do not see the value of our independent voice . Our position in the world is well established , recognised and respected and our continuing international links are as strong as ever . Europe cannot be united politically and economically and it is an enormous waste of money and time in trying to weld it together . It would be far better if the money spent had been available for investment projects where growth and need were genuine needs . As I see it the cost of the EU has been money down the drain .
March 15, 2015
The same reasons most folk won’t slag off their boss in public?
March 15, 2015
“This soon to expire Parliament has seen a complete absence of Labour opposition to any new laws or powers for the EU, just as they gave away so much power in 3 great Treaties when in government.”
As if the majority of Tory MPs did nothing like this in the past, had it not been for the Tory government of the 1980s and ’90s with their wish to have and extend the “Free Market” we might still have the EEC, and it was this that caused the EU’s wish for new markets to sell EC/EU Goods and Services that spawned the eastward march of expansion. Had it not been for the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty and the Tories wiliness to at least try and go along with EMU/ERM I doubt we would be were we all are today!
“So why is it that these people who believe in pan European solidarity have nothing to say about the scandal of poverty and joblessness in large chunks of Euroland?”
Do they not, surely those who truly believe in pan European solidarity are those who also believe in what is often expressed as More Europe, that unmentionable Federal EU. Also, unlike domestic unemployment is the Westminster Village really the place to debate Greek or Spanish unemployment (does the UK parliament debate unemployment in say the USA or Australia say), surely the place is the EU parliament and commission, and unemployment is something that the EU parliamentary groups at least do worry about -and debate.
“Closer to home, Labour signed us up to a common energy policy. [..//..]”
Well yes but once AGW etc. gained a critical mass of support there was always going to the such problems (hence Cameron and his “greenest Government ever” comment before the last election), and the way Obama & Co. is going, should the Democrats retain the White House there is no certainty that the US will not follow down this path of folly even while Fracking. Also China is waking up to both higher wages and the effects of pollution if not falling for AGW. When complaining about other political parties falling for the environmental lobby the Tories, especially those close to government back in the 1980s, should not forget the keen interest Mrs Thatcher had, although how much of that was due to environmental concerns and how much was finding a way of daemonising coal we might never know…
“I will not believe UK politicians really understand a united Europe until they do raise the plight of the unemployed and unfortunate in Athens or Madrid as strongly as they would the plight of people in the UK.”
Just how many MPs are there who believe in a united Europe, since the now disgraced Denis MacShane was forced to quite, I can’t recall anyone openly calling for the UK to join the EZ or a federal EU in quite the same way!
But as for debates, what chance that (even if the UK parliament is the correct place), the Tory lead coalition would/has never give parliamentary time for such a debate, true the opposition could have used their limited slots but to what effect, a barrage of ridicule from the majority Tory benches and press. What I find strange is that whilst those on the Tory benches want a strong EU to trade with (either the UK as a member or not) but they do not seem concerned if the EZ economy will be in any shape to do so, why have they not raised the plight of the unemployed and unfortunate in Athens or Madrid as strongly as they would the plight of people in the UK within the UK?
March 15, 2015
The answer to your question is that this is the result you get from those who wear blinkers inside a bubble. The new Greek government is no different, as it seems to expect other EZ countries to fund better welfare benefits and entitlements than they provide their own citizens.
Spiegel Online has an interesting article on the current power struggle between Juncker (who wants to keep Greece inside the EZ) and Merkel (who is ready to accept Grexit) plus a couple of others on the Greek issue. It looks as though the resolution of Greece in or out is shaping up to a defining Commission vs the nation states battle.
March 15, 2015
Re: your last paragraph – I have thought for a while that someone as utterly, blindly dedicated to the EU superstate as Juncker would be the EU’s downfall. I can’t help thinking that if he somehow overrules Merkel and the Germans, that really will be the beginning of the end.
Let’s hope, eh?
Always worth reading Der Spiegel – it gives a far more balanced view on the current state of the EU than any of our papers.
March 15, 2015
Interesting!!
March 15, 2015
The Labour and Lib Dems ,and it has to be said, some Conservatives, attitudes to what has happened in Southern Europe and the continual giving away of the British elecotrate’s powers to unelected bureaucrats is useful in one way that it indicates what their real opinions are of Democracy and the ordinary voter. You cannot be a Europhile and a Democrat at the same time – they are incompatible. Their attitutudes to unemployment in Greece, Spain and Italy is the same as socialists have always had – “the end justifies the means”. They have no real empathy now with the “workers” but believe government by an “elite” band of bureaucrats is best as the ordinary manb cannot possibly be entrusted with a political say. Unfortunately their grasp of history is pretty low so cannot see the inveitable consequences of this policy.
March 15, 2015
There are over 7 billion people in the world, and while the proportion living in poverty may have declined over my lifetime – that will of course depend on the chosen definition of poverty – in absolute numbers there are certainly more people living in poverty now than there were before simply because the total population has roughly tripled.
So I have to ask myself why I should be more concerned about poverty in Greece than poverty in, say, Zimbabwe. I have to set aside any instinctive prejudice in favour of the Greeks on the grounds of their racial origin and consider whether a nation which has had some opportunity to control its own destiny through a functioning, albeit grossly imperfect, democratic system of government for the past four decades merits my concern and sympathy, and therefore possibly my assistance, more or less than people living in a chaotic and divided post-colonial country in Africa which has been suffering under the authoritarian/dictatorial thumb of Mugabe for most of that period.
As I have said before I have little sympathy for the Greeks, who made their choices and must live with the consequences; they could have turned against their corrupt political class and insisted on electing governments with integrity, but instead they were content to elect politicians who had no compunction about cooking the books in order to blag their way into the euro so that they could borrow on Germany’s credit rating.
And I also have little sympathy for the Germans, who elected politicians who knowingly allowed Greece into the euro under false pretences. If German taxpayers end up footing a large part of the bill for that, then that will be what they brought upon themselves as electors in a democratic country.
My paramount concern is what happens to this country and its people, who have also made terrible mistakes when electing politicians to govern them in the past and who seem set to make more mistakes this May.
Reply Exactly. My main concern is also with people in the UK, because I am a Eurosceptic and think the correct demos is the UK electorate, not the wider EU citizenry. However, if someone believes in the current EU they need to regard all fellow EU citizens as of equal value and importance and work for them all , surely?
March 15, 2015
I read the entire debate this week and agree with all your points and comments. I also agreed with my MP Mr Rees Mogg. I have no doubt of your integrity but you are up against a leadership who will go to any length to keep us in the EU dictatorship. So as patriots it is our duty to oppose you to get us free and the return of our sovereign democracy that your parties gave up by stealth and lies. Your parties cannot be trusted.
March 16, 2015
Timaction; “[the established] parties cannot be trusted.”
On the other hand the challenger parties can’t be elected in sufficient numbers alone and together are polls apart (no pun intended), there is no way for example either UKIP and the Greens (or even a resurgent SLP) could work within a greater coalition as whilst both want a EU referendum (and the SDLP are pledged to exit the EU) they agree on nothing else! Like it or not the road to be travelled, be that outside of the EU or in, has to be travelled with at least one of the established parties.
March 16, 2015
Every long journey starts with a first small step. Over 4 million votes in last years European elections was a massive stride. UKIP won Jerry, remember? Two elected MP’s since is a crack in the dam. Then we’ll see how we do in the General election.
I haven’t noticed any significant change since the last election save more taxes, immigration, overcrowding, no bonfire of the quangos, no significant reduction in our massive deficit, lack of school places, more human rights and EU Court decisions always against us, EU meddling with increasing costs and regulatory burden, more foreign and EU aid plus paying for the health of millions of foreign people, no reform of the CAP or fisheries, more foreign wars, education and housing in crisis, in and out of work benefits for millions of foreign people. The legacy parties have consistently failed and lied to us for over 40 years. Jerry take a look at 30/1048 from 1971 and weep.
Einstein said the first sign of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome! I’m voting, canvassing, contributing, leafleting for change and the only party offering that for my family and friends is………………UKIP!
March 17, 2015
Timaction; “Every long journey starts with a first small step.
Yes and if this was 1997 again |I might agree but this long journey has been plodding on for 18 years now and within another few years your charabanc might come across a big sign saying welcome to the “United States of Europe” as the road and your fuel runs out…
March 15, 2015
This is indeed an interesting question and I suspect the answer is tied up in the fact that for most protagonists of the EU their support is based not on logic but emotion to the extent that, as has often been said, support for European unification is for many a religion rather than practical politics. In this context any disadvantages become worth suffering for the cause, and the horrors faced by the people of Greece, Spain and others are regarded by many in Berlin and Brussels as ‘Good for them’, and a just punishment for past transgressions.
The lack of concern in the Labour and Liberal parties probably has similar roots: Socialism is another crede that can only be justified by the emotions.
March 15, 2015
Dear Mr Redwood,
Thanks you for your excellent posts on Sovereignty, the budget and now the effect the EU has on its hapless citizens.
Unfortunately many Conservative MPs are quietly Europhiles and will do their utmost to avoid and downplay leaving the EU even if it is in our interests to do so.
My local Conservative MP, West Meon, sent out his “company comic”, produced at our expense, telling us what a wonderful job he is doing on:
battling climate change
supporting the European Arrest Warrrant etc.
His voting record shows he has voted for every pro EU item in the commons that has come up.
The icing on the cake was a patronising handwritten letter to constituents informing us (quote)
“Politicians are in a position that allows them to tell people what to do and may be told uncomfortable truths from time to time”
Funny they do not/ will not actually take any notice of them and won’t realise we are their employers and not their subjects.
A local Conservative Councillor delivering the comic to our letterboxw was asked if our MP was a Eurosceptic – he is Eurosceptic enough he replied.
Seting aside deluded Labour, Liberrals and Greens it will be difficult to know who to vote for, Conservative or not.
March 15, 2015
@TWFU; “His voting record shows he has voted for every pro EU item in the commons that has come up.”
How does that record compare to his (local manifesto) promises made to the constituency before the 2010 election, just because you do not like how he has voted doesn’t mean he has failed his constituents, but of course if you are in the majority he will not be the MP for very much longer whilst you’ll be the one looking a bit daft if he increases his majority, perhaps attracting disaffected LDs or even Labour voters!
The icing on the cake was a patronising handwritten letter to constituents informing us (quote)
“Politicians are in a position that allows them to tell people what to do and may be told uncomfortable truths from time to time”
How is that “patronising”, every single law Parliament passes does just that, every times MPs (in their roll as Ministers) place new regulations (such as requiring job seekers to actually prove they are seeking employment) upon the population they are doing just that, in three days time, by mid afternoon, MPs will no doubt nod through changes in excise duty that we will then have to pay from 6pm. Bravo to the fact that he told you the truth!
March 15, 2015
The EU to most Britons, and I expect to populations of most member nations is that of a remote bureaucracy.
There is very little informative reporting or discussion of the important decisions taken on our behalf, and when things do go wrong it then always seems too late to do anything about it.
Supporting this body with apparently our so little influence seems pointless and is eye-wateringly costly. They seem to continually bend the rules to our disadvantage.
I see the latest initiative from Mr Junker is for the formation of an EU Army – you couldn’t make it up! What happened to the inquiry about him when in national office (and ed)the tax rules (affecting ) major corporations?
March 15, 2015
@Paul Cohen; “The EU to most Britons, and I expect to populations of most member nations is that of a remote bureaucracy.”
I suspect that the EU is far more visible in most member countries other than the UK, perhaps due to funded projects (especially in the south and east) or for no other reason than the EU flag that is flown so happily!
“Supporting this body with apparently our so little influence seems pointless and is eye-wateringly costly. They seem to continually bend the rules to our disadvantage.”
Well if we are halfway out the door… The scenario you paint is a self fulfilling prophecy.
March 15, 2015
I have heard speeches in the European Parliament on the plight of the unemployed and unfortunate in Athens or Madrid and strongly criticizing the approach of the EU Commission. Nigel Farage made them.
March 15, 2015
@David Murfin; You are correct, the European Parliament have debated the issue of mass unemployment in the southern EU but many europhile MEPs have made far better speeches than the europhobic ones whose speeches are often nothing but worthless rhetoric.
March 15, 2015
I’m not so sure that those who claim strong and principled opposition to the EU and who speak out against it day in and day out should still support and vote for a party and the leader of which who says we are better off in it.
March 15, 2015
I am amazed that you have the gall to criticise Labour and Libdems for being uncritical of the EU and accusing them of giving away our laws and rights in the treaties they signed.
You might remember that it was the Conservative government of Edward Heath who took us into the EEC and signed the most dangerous Act in 1973. We, the people, were not consulted, nor were we told the truth as to how this membership would develop into Britain losing its sovereignty. You cannot give away bits of sovereignty – you either are a sovereign nation or you are not. We are not. The EU controls everything the British Government used to control. You are left with making laws that YOU abide by now – 80% reduction in CO2 emissions, 5-year terms, 7% of GDP set aside for Aid. There is nothing else you can do except tinker around the edges.
March 15, 2015
This is a great post and shows just how flawed and ridiculous the Labour Party and Lib Dems are. They really don’t see the big picture at all. Their support of the EU is disgraceful in the sense that they do not expose EU legislation to proper scrutiny, which is their Parliamentary responsibility. Indeed, although Blair did great damage to this country by using his considerable persuasive power to support the war in Iraq, it is arguable that Gordon Brown, by signing the Lisbon treaty, did even more damage.
March 15, 2015
Only somewhat off-topic, JR, have you noticed this article by a Fellow condemning the Royal Society for having turned into lobbyists for the AGW theory?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2995239/Why-Royal-Society-wrong-climate-change-devastating-critique-world-s-leading-scientific-organisation-one-Fellows.html
“Those who fail to provide balance are not giving advice, but lobbying. It is with the deepest regret that I must now state that this is the role which has been adopted by the Royal Society. And when scientists abandon neutral inquiry for lobbying, they jeopardise their purpose and integrity.”
March 16, 2015
Prof Michael Kelly exactly is right. All sensible, decent and honest scientists (physicists especially) and engineers tend to agree agree. The problems is when some become politicians and priest. So often organisations and charities are taken over by these sorts.
If they models do not agree with experiment they are wrong that is how science is. Non the warming catastrophe dopes predicted the recent lack of warming for 17 years. How many more years of a lack of warming do they want.
Doubtless the Gore/Cameron/Davey types – when they are proved to have exaggerated hugely will claim credit for having solved the (non) problem. Or perhaps go back to new ice age predictions with a new fashion as we had in the seventies.
March 15, 2015
We should be prepared to loose Scotland but think we could excel without the EU and Scotland!
March 15, 2015
Dr Redwood I understand for the first time now, the EU’s private army, making ready for departure to Greece, is prepared for deployment. Hardly any European knows this secret force that goes by the name of “Eurogendfor”. The command of this more than 3,000-strong special intervention group is located in Vicenza, Italy. Originally the former French defense minister Alliot-Marie pushed the creation of this force after there had been more and more riots in France with street battles and lootings caused by young Muslim immigrants. “Eurogendfor” is everything: police, criminal police, army and intelligence. The responsibilities of these troops are practically unlimited. It is to ensure, in close cooperation with European military personnel, the “security in European conflict areas.” Their job is especially to crush uprisings. More and more EU states join “Eurogendfor”.
The European governments know exactly what awaits them. The EU has secretly and quietly founded the paramilitary gendarmerie force, so that the EU countries would not be forced to use their own army against their citizens. The European Gendarmerie Force can theoretically be used everywhere, where the EU sees a crisis. The Treaty of Velsen, which governs the operations of Eurogendfor, says so. The motto in the coat of arms is: “Lex paciferat” – translated: “The law will bring peace.” It emphasizes “the principle of a strict relationship between the enforcement of legal principles and the restoration of a safe and secure environment.” A ‘war council’ in the shape of the Ministerial Committee, composed of the defense and security ministers of the participating EU member states, decides about the deployment strategy. The force can be set in March either on request or by decision of the EU.
In article 4 of the founding treaty the tasks of deployment are described as follows: “protecting people and property and keeping order in the event of public disturbances.” The soldiers of the paramilitary EU force must initially comply with applicable law of the state in which they are stationed and deployed, but: All buildings and grounds, which are monopolized by troops, are immune and not accessible even for authorities of the state in which the force acts. The EU juggernaut is setting national law out of power even in the case of fighting insurgency. Dr Redwood do you have knowledge of such a force and could it be used in the UK?
March 16, 2015
Well, I would say that the existence of Eurogendfor is more “little publicised” rather than actually “secret”, it does have a website:
http://www.eurogendfor.org/
It even has an illuminating section about the insignia:
http://www.eurogendfor.org/eurogendfor-library/logo-and-symbols
“A first version of the EUROGENDFOR logo (central grenade on a vertical sword and surrounded by twelve stars) was adopted by the CIMIN during the meeting held in Vicenza on 6 September 2005. The insignia were then slightly changed in 2007 when the EUROGENDFOR countries agreed on the removal of the twelve stars. In December 2009 during the CIMIN meeting held in Versailles the CIMIN adopted a low visibility badge … ”
The grenade and the sword are there because this is a police force with military status, which rules out the participation of the British police.
March 15, 2015
Because there is no European demos. This is the paradox at the heart of the European experiment and one I have been thinking about for a long time now. If there truly was a European demos, the integrationists should be calling for a change in policy because of the misery it is inflicting on the Greeks and because they feel their pain, but they don’t. This would imply there isn’t a European demos which means the EU has no grounds for pursuing integrationist policies.
March 16, 2015
The English parliament workers pension, I have a look at what you have at the moment and the start age should be 18 not 22, the £5777 a year starting rate net of tax is good, the product is not open to the market I think 20% of product should open to the market so people can put their own company shares in and learn how to loses money,
I have start at 6000 pounds a year at 15% which is 900 pounds a year then 11.250 pounds net of tax which is 900 pounds a year at 8% then 11.250 pounds to 31.200 pounds at net of pay at 8% which is about 2.500 pounds a year at 31.200 then 31.200 pounds to 100.000 pounds everybody gets 2.500 a year so it start at 15% to 2.5% and 6000 to 100.000 pounds paid by the government, 4% to be paid by the employees and 4% by the employer. so the person on 900 pounds a year from the government with their employers 4% that 19% and 1%their self is 20% of 6.000 pounds that 1.200 pounds a year going in to their pension. The person on 11.250 net of tax at 8% is 900 plus 4% employers and 4% employees is 1800 pounds a year going into a pensions with 4% extra to put in if they or their employer want to fund it which would be 2.250 pounds a year going into their pension, I think you get the idea.
I think the cash account in the pension plan should be at 25% at all times, and that part the pension should pay annuity rates of 3.75% and 5% and go up when rates go up, the idea of 25% cash is so people take money out for a deposit on a home up to 30% at ages of 28 year old or pay off their student loan or put the student loan in the pension but the loan would to be a flat rate not compounded rate because if it compounded it will up the whole pension, the cash part of pension is the most important the gambling on market and insurance product not so important. At fifty you can take out half the money out or start drawing down and rest on retirement if you wish apart from the student loan money which would be owed to the government and I think at the end 5% should split between the government and the insurance company to make sure the cash rates are kept up. They say they have not had a pay rise so you can give them a pension rise and cut ni for employers. By the time my eclipse comes I will be in first place to win the election, no if no but dropping back as for SNP & labour not in my universe.
March 18, 2015
Greece and Spain both want to stay in the Euro zone, suggesting that Germany and the other rich European Member States will eventually be forced to make transfer payments, either via QE and/or by the ECB buying Greek and Spanish bonds. There may well be objections from the German electorate, 52% of whom favour a Grexit from the Euro zone.
Let’s get to the heart of the matter: is the EU becoming a European Federation or a German empire?
We might remember that Greece entered the Euro zone fraudulently, getting Goldman Sachs to raise a huge loan for them and keeping it off balance sheet, indeed hidden. The leading EU Member States smelled a rat but did nothing, for political reasons.