Germany leading or tiring of the EU?

German enthusiasm for a United States of Europe has been a given of the European project. Mrs Merkel is probably allowing herself a little private celebration that once again she has quelled rebels over lending money to Greece and has persuaded her anti bail out Finance Minister to back her and refrain from playing to the no more loans gallery. She probably knows that in practice money lent to Greece is going to be written off or placed on the never never in a way which makes it effectively a grant. She also knows that the German people are not ready to approve grants to Greece.

Juts as one problem recedes temporarily, another arrives in her In tray. Germany wants some migrant labour, as its population is falling and its economy is capable of generating extra jobs. The shock news that Germany might accept 800,000 refugees this year shows the scale of the problem now confronting the EU’s rulers. Germany may well be tolerant and friendly toward migrants for the most part, but the pace and size of this migration stretches even well run administrations trying to register, help and house all these new people. There are those in Germany who now say this is too many too quickly, and despair of the lack of proper border controls elsewhere in the Union that allows so many to travel through their countries to reach the German promised land.

Mrs Merkel does what is now a reflex action for German Chancellors under pressure in the EU – she picks up the phone to the French. On this occasion she wanted to discuss changes to the Schengen agreement on open frontiers. This response is somewhat different to her initial response to the UK’s proposal that we gain more control over EU migrants into the UK when she claimed to be a resolute supporter of free movement or completely open internal EU borders. Now German public opinion is on the move, maybe reform is possible after all. Germany seems to be considering reimposing proper German border controls, with German decisions on who should be admitted, if the rest of the EU both fails to control their own external borders properly, and fail to take their fair share of in bound migrants to the EU as a whole.

The BBC likes to contrast the UK taking say 15000 refugees with Germany taking 800,000. The true comparison is with the UK taking 600,000 migrants in various categories, many of them coming under free movement rules within the EU. Maybe German can now understand our worries about the ability of a government to keep up with migrant demand for homes, school places, health facilities and benefits if they come on too big a scale.

The German people have not been told the truth about the price of creating a United States of Europe. Germany will need to pay a lot more to other parts of the Eurozone, just as West Germany had to pay a lot to East Germany when they amalgamated currencies. Germany will also continue to be the receiver of migrants of last resort if they continue with one EU country with a common external frontier policed by Greece, Italy and the others.

For now under Mrs Merkel Germany remains the leader of an EU on a wild ride to political union. If more of the German people rumble the nature of the plan and see just how much the Euro will cost them German opinion might shift towards more German answers to EU created problems. Germans do not seem to have the same commitment to helping Greeks that West Germans had to helping East Germans.

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78 Comments

  1. Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:16 am | Permalink

    You beg the question whether Germans will eventually back grants to Greece. I think that the opposite is true and ever more likely so as Germans feel more and more that their guilt has been expiated

  2. Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    I suspect that the German political classes are “leading”, and the German population is “tiring”.

    Only half like the UK….

  3. Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Exactly. The usual absurd BBC bias and drivel too on the issue too.

    You say reform may be possible. Has Cameron decided what reform and renegotiation he wants yet? Is he ever going to tell us?

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      Peter Hitchens reports the following in his current blog:

      “far more interesting,but(as usual)far less covered is the revelation that David Cameron’s ‘renegotiation’ really is a blatant fix.

      The former Cabinet Minister Andrew Lansley has told select audiences that the whole thing is planned,right down to a fake table-thumping row with the French to make the PM look like John Bull.”

      Many who follow this blog will not be surprised by that but has anyone reading been amongst one of these select audiences?

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

        The Tory Government is weak, incompetent and impotent on all things EU. They now have such control over us our tin pot Government has to implement everything it says and has to seek agreement for about everything we do. When do we get a say in electing any of the Commission or removing them? Just this week Osborne had to gain EU permission to give tax breaks to the film industry and we’re told some of our breaches will be closed under EU dictate. It is a Franco/German dictatorship and the Tory leadership will do anything and say anything to keep us in it. We never have any say or influence and we know that Cameron will be preparing his “Chamberlain” moment. Confirmed as above. It is in our National interest to remove the Tory leadership but I’m afraid party loyalty always takes precedence. In our hour of need we need Churchill but we have CMD!
        I wonder how the immigration figures will look when released later this week?

        • Posted August 25, 2015 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

          I despair. I now find myself far more distanced from the party I once supported, than I ever thought possible no so very long ago. They relied upon the fear of a Labour government allied to the SNP with a confidence and supply agreement to get elected. It wasn’t for purely positive reasons, and now there is the threat of yet another pro-EU Tory sell-out yet again by sleight of hand.

          Germany is master of Europe in all-but name. A United States of Europe where no-one dare say so – not yet, because the project is incomplete, but it isn’t far off. The UK is in the process of being subsumed, and there are still those who either cannot see it, who flatly refuse to see it, or are a part of the subterfuge.

          Recently, the deposed former Lib Dem MP for Cambridge, Julian Huppert, said on local radio that now all the scaremongering about the EU had been debunked, and we now know what a good thing it is, we should get behind the project. He has just got to be joking! But I still don’t know how to convince those who have not the capacity to see for themselves just what a disaster the EU is. What part of the phrase ‘incoherent mess’ do these people fail to get?

          But the worst kind, are the ones who play tricks on us. They’re not fit to govern.

          Tad

      • Posted August 25, 2015 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        That certainly sounds just like Cameron, we shall see in due course.

        Spin over substance every time it seems. How is he getting on with his no ifs no buts 10s of thousands and his priority in three letters NHS?

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

      Re: “You say reform may be possible. Has Cameron decided what reform and renegotiation he wants yet? Is he ever going to tell us?”

      Good question LL, I’d like to hear that answer as well.

  4. Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    These are NOT refugees. They are, in the most part, economic migrants and should be sent back.

    If Germany has a problem with a falling birth rate any lower longterm economic output, would it not be more wiser to export its industries to places like Greece or any number of (more distant ed) countries ? I am sure this would not only help reduce the number of economic migrants, it would also create a growing economy and a more aspirational populace. A populace with a growing wealthy middle-class tend to by nice things, like French wine and Germany cars and white goods etc.

    Importing people and then (placing ed) them on comunities that do not want them is no solutuion.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

      Mark It certainly is a good idea for Germany to relocate more of their industries, but where? Most of the migrants are from parts of Africa, and the Middle East, currently in conflict. So the first priority should be to stop the conflict, but that means military intervention, and Germany can never get involved in such a venture. However, one country that could be invigorated by new industry is Greece. Surely a better way to help would be to build some factories, rather than lend money..

  5. Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    “United States of Europe” is a eurosceptic myth (or nightmare) which, in spite of Churchill’s choice of words, is not going to happen. The hybrid EU structure, in which recently the intergovernmental aspect hs been gaining significantly, allows for much more flexibility and sustainability of the EU construct. As such the “EU rulers” (what a term!) are Cameron, Merkel, Hollande, Renzi, etc. Now that the Greece tragedy has indeed temporarily receded, a recent example that nations (democracies!) are in power rather than the supranational, a new challenge emerges as many European challenges will in future, that is normal. Obviously, in order to discuss Schengen, one wants to call insiders, not outsiders, just like in the case of Greece (euro), a call to Cameron may not have the same priority as a call to Hollande or Tsipras. It is not really wise to mix up “Schengen” (1985) with the principle of free movement of workers (Treaty of Rome, 1957).

    It will take time and effort to convince voters in e.g. Germany (likewise, the Netherlands), how best to meet the challenges of today and tomorrow. Telling the truth may help to create enough thrust to meet these challenges. The truth about Greece is not just that its debt is unsustainable but also that Germany has profited (saved) some €100 billion from the Greek debt crisis. I expect that both Schengen and the euro are here to stay, even if temporary tinkering were deemed necessary.

    Reply The project is about creating a USE, as the advocates make clear.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:11 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply: there may be some who advocate creating a USE, but in my perception they are relatively few (a few LibDems?) and the EU will continue to have this flexible, hybrid structure. I don’t know of any USA decisions where absolute unanimity among all the 50 states is required.

      Reply Quite – so you think USE will be like USA, and centralised powerful state. Try reading the 5 Presidents manifesto.

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

        PvL Treaty of Rome, 1957 “ever closer union” not “ever closer ubion until…”

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

        Reply to reply to reply 🙂
        I already had a Dutch version of the 5 presidents manifesto, now I also have obtained the identical English version. Very different from a USE! What you see as submission to a higher authority I see as institutionalised peer pressure. National parliaments are to receive more power. National governments will, together, remain the powerhouse within the EU. The hybrid structure is there to stay.
        This completion of the EMU as described in the 5 president’s manifesto is also only meant for the eurozone, a zone the UK will not be part of.

        Reply It is a manifesto for economic union, monetary union, banking union, capital markets union and political union!

        • Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

          @Mr Redwood: granted, with the caveats that this is for the eurozone only, that it won’t take away the intergovernmental structures of either the eurozone (Eurogroup until now informal) nor the EU (the European Council). And of course the UK can stay outside the eurozone and still be in the EU.

          • Posted August 27, 2015 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

            The important thing is that we take steps to stay out of a federal Europe – and that means repealing our Acts of Accession to the Maastricht, Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaties.

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

        TAs Mr Redwood says, please read the Five Presidents report on the EU’s own website and then Google 30/1048 from 1971 and our FCO. It clearly sets out the intentions and the treachery of the legacy parties who have repeatedly lied about their intentions. We don’t have to be in any EU to trade with it. It is and always has been a political project to create and USE by incremental stealthy lies and treaty change. Step by step to create their goal.

        • Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

          @Timaction: I agree with you that you don’t have to be in the EU to trade with it. I think though that most British will not want a complete separation from the EU. So we wait what Mr. Cameron may achieve for you.

          • Posted August 25, 2015 at 9:02 am | Permalink

            Complete separation?? Why do we want to be taxed to give away £12 billion to foreign farmers, infrastructure and bureaucrats who we didn’t elect and don’t want who impose unwanted laws on us????????????? So we can be made to keep more foreign criminals and their human rights whilst the English are ignored.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

      If “United States of Europe” is no more than a “eurosceptic myth”, why did Giscard moot that as the new name for the EU in his preliminary draft constitution?

      This is not the first time you have tried to hawk this false reassurance, Peter.

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

        @Denis Cooper: Giscard did have to withdraw that and even his constitution was rejected by the French and the Dutch. There will hopefully be more integration in the eurozone but the UK is not part of that and it remains to be seen if other countries would be forced to join. Forcing is no good method, whatever the legal text may say. See how Sweden stays aloof of the eurozone. If nations voluntarily join for whatever reason (economic, geopolitical or seeking stability) they may be admitted. I have the benefit of Dutch and other continental media and I really don’t see the hybrid EU construction abandoned. It is well described in a book now available in English: Passage to Europe.

        • Posted August 26, 2015 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

          Yes, Peter, Giscard proposed that with the support of most members of the Convention and it went into the preliminary draft treaty which he presented to the EU national governments. And it was then that the UK government in particular objected that it was too blatant and would provoke a hostile reaction rather than promote acceptance of the government’s lie that the treaty was just a “tidying up exercise”, and so the words were dropped from the text in the same way that the word “federal” was dropped from the text. That doesn’t mean that the idea was dropped or has since been dropped.

          I’ve said before that we have enough homegrown eurofanatics trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the British people and we don’t need a foreigner to join in with them; if you really must seek to practise your deceptions, do it on your own countrymen not mine.

  6. Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    As has been the case in UK, German political opinion lags public opinion by some distance. The tabloid newspapers in Germany are stridently anti-Greek and anti-immigrant but none of the main parties reflect this view. I guess like here it will take a tight general election to shift the position of the main parties in that populist direction. The next federal elections are in 2017.

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 9:08 am | Permalink

      The people are the same here it’s just the legacy parties and establishment who are out of touch to be totally alien! It’s not my fault I voted with 4000,000 others who have no representation but will double if not treble their vote by the next election as people will see the result of their foolishness.

  7. Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    “The German people have not been told the truth about the price of creating a United States of Europe.”
    .
    The British people have also not been told the truth about the price of creating a United States of Europe, have they?

  8. Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    But still Dave pretends to be negotiating
    It just highlights what a liar he is when he tells us about influence at the top table
    He’s completely powerless against German control. The (United Europe ed) is fully functioning and not a shot fired. We are being shafted by our leaders.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

      What’s new Ian?? We always have and always will continue to be shafted. If its not over taxes, green or whatever, the unemployment numbers, immigration numbers, MP’s expenses, the list goes on. It’s about time the British public stopped watching Coronation Street and Eastenders and started thinking about their futures a bit more and listening to what is really going on. Blogs like this are a great eye opener. Thank goodness for people like JR

  9. Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Until all the governmets of the EU admit the truth and decide to end the EU project, nothing will change. Merkel may moan and do what she can to spread migrants throughout, but the policy won’t change..
    Cameron will carry on with his charade called ‘renegotiation’ but nothing will change.
    He’ll use ‘smoke and mirrors’ to fool the populace that things can and will be changed, but nothing will happen.
    Politicians in the control and pay of the EU will assure people they are voting for change whilst getting nothing of the sort.

    Read the words of Jean Monnet, founding father of the EU project, over half a century ago.

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation”

    There’s only one way to stop to the EU project. Leave it !

  10. Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    I have a solution to the refugee issue.

    Facts:

    1. They keep telling us that these people are fleeing warzones in the middle east. They’re apparently not economic migrants at all!

    2. Many are moving through Turkey – a massive country with huge open spaces, and a country which wants to join the EU.

    3. Some EU leaders want Turkey to join the EU.

    4. EU leaders will change the Schengen agreement any time they feel like it.

    5. The EU has a big aid budget.

    So:

    1. Change the Schengen agreement.

    2. Let Turkey into the EU.

    3. Build refugee camps in Turkey using the EU aid budget and house the refugees there until it is safe for the refugees to go home.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

      The snag Dave is that once in one EU country they are entitled to move around to any other EU country.

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

        To Edward2: Not if they’re refugees and therefore not citizens of any EU country.

        • Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

          I thought once in the EU they could claim asylum in a country of their choice.
          But I may be wrong.

  11. Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    The free movement of people within the EU is a good idea in theory. However like many well meaning intentions (the road to hell is paved by good intentions) it was not thourt thought through properly. It did not take into consideration internal movements that placed a strain on infrastructure, welfare services, the mass movement of labour from poorer nations to richer ones. The one benefit was the numbers of skilled labour with the right work ethic made available for countries who would have run short of them without it.

    Now though EU nations are being swamped by peoples from outside it’s borders. Was this a consequence that should have been anticipated? Probably not but it should have been anticipated that the free movement policy would make a mass invasion if it happened almost impossible to control As we are all signed up to the UN refugee charter which gives almost carte blanch entry and residence to immigrants to peoples from many countries outside the EU we are even restricted to fewer solutions to the current problem.

    Tougher border controls will of course help but not much but are definitely needed. Only changing EU free movement rules and the UN charter on refugees so that the problems of free movement can can be taken in practical ways will we be able tackle the problems. It means taking out the lefty thinking that encourages rather than dissuades the immigrants and becoming a little more hard hearted and discriminatory. The alternative of carrying on as we are will only lead to immigrants becoming better off, yes, but the indigenous people being considerably worse off to a degree that leads to social unrest.

  12. Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Whoah, not only can JR speak for Britain, but he can now do it for Germany. What an incredible statesman is he!

    Reply Of course I do not speak for Germany, but I am allowed my views on German opinion. What is your problem with my analysis?

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

      Simply that I do not agree with your very first sentence. My understanding is that German people, if they were keen on reconciliation in the 1960s have cooled down a lot since. They were keen on reunification after 1989, but know they paid quite a price for the reunification, with inflation, and Germany being the sick man of Europe in 1990-91. Then if the introduction of the euro has been a very good thing for the German industry, and has continued to be so, it is not so obvious for the population at large. Have you ever heard of the “teuro”? After its introduction, prices of food was up by at least 5 percent. Since the 1990s, you have the saying “Geiz ist geil” (saving is cool) and that can explain the relatively high level of savings that average German people have (certainly related to the average Brit). This might also be another contributor to the rather successful mid-sized companies (together with exports billed in euros).

      544000 was the number of immigrants that Germany was thought to integrate in 2015. As you said, 800000 might make the infrastructure crack at the seams, and people be worried by that. By the way, I am still wondering where you got your 600000 immigrants in the UK from?

      I would think most German people are well aware of what the EU plans mean for their country, and are already making pressure on various levels of government to get a (more) satisfactory outcome.

      So your piece of analysis, while a nice meal for your usual audience, might not be so easily digestible for people over there, particularly the bit “German people have not been told the truth …”.

      Reply The UK figure is the official gross figure.
      Germans have been told they can have the Euro without transfers, which looks wrong if you see what is actually happening with Greece.

  13. Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    The Spinelli document and the Report of the Five Presidents envisage, between them, a Europe entirely dominated by the Commissioners. These people will effectively control everything.

    In USA there is a democracy where the President, the two houses and a lot of local officials are elected. The States, too, have powers given to their elected representatives. Under the plans for the EU, however, none of this is true. Yes, there are a lot of elected bodies, but their powers are curtailed by the enormous powers of the Commission.

    Now the Commission is showing its total inefficiency over immigrants (we need to change the 1951 treaty arrangements) the Ukraine (where a civil war is raging which has been stoked up by Baroness Ashton and the Commission) the Greek problem (where something needs to be thought through over the Euro).

    I simply ask this: would you re elect the Commission as your government if you had the chance? Would you, too, want them to take even more power? I certainly would not.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

      As I’ve mentioned before, the 1951 treaty arrangements were agreed to deal with the aftermath of the Second World War, and only in Europe, and so by now they would be virtually irrelevant if it weren’t for the 1967 Protocol which extended the same terms to the whole world for all time.

  14. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I expect Mr. Cameron will conduct a heroic campaign to fight for all of the EU reform that Mrs. Merkel wants.

  15. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Certainly when talking numbers for those entering any Country all media sources should quote gross figures.

    The fact that tens of thousands of our citizens are quitting the UK to find a better life somewhere else should not be set against it.

    Indeed it could also be argued on the basis used by the Media, if they want to use net figures, that those with money and who paid tax are leaving, and those with nothing much and will require some sort of Benefit (even if it is short term) are arriving.

    Let us also not forget the huge sums of money we (the Government and Charities) are sending abroad, to help so called refugees in foreign lands, which many other Countries do not.

    Free movement without any form of check has now become farcical, border controls throughout The EU is an absolute must if for no other reason than security.

    Restricted Benefit entitlement for those who have never paid into the system is a no brainer.

    Stopping migration at source is the key, and that is where the effort needs to go, and where the United Nations and EU should be taking the lead.

  16. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    We all know what Germany is. Wrong. We all know what the United Kingdom is. Wrong. Our perception is idiomatic,- dependent on our age, education, political and cultural experience not to mention religion. Importantly, it changes with time.

    You say “Germany may well be tolerant and friendly toward migrants for the most part.” Are Indian Germans tolerant of Pakistani Germans or German Afghan migrants tolerant of German Syrian migrants? Are Indian Germans tolerant of one another as India is a big country with many castes, religions, and cultures? Foreign-born Germans amount to 10% of her population and is rapidly rising.

    One reads in the news of flashpoints regarding migration in Germany and even here, when it is reported, when and if the police are told, when and if the media report it. But for the most part predominantly anti-migrant political groups are engaged in very little activity indeed. The German and British governments with dumb policies on Migration and Asylum are figuratively throwing stones at the windows of their traditional…countrymen… Etc ed

    People vote for particular parties rarely on one issue only. The number of main issues is lessening.

  17. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Seventy years ago many Germans still hankered after some kind of racial, Aryan or Nordic, genetic purity, but since then that attitude has gradually turned around completely so that now the Germans seem to have lost interest in perpetuating themselves as a nation, even as a racially hybrid nation, and it seems that many of them actively welcome their own replacement by the children of other people of other races from other countries. Perhaps it is still war guilt which leads them to think that they are not worthy of continuing as a nation.

    Meanwhile over those same seventy years since the end of the war the population of Syria has increased ninefold, from about 3 million to about 27 million, which may itself be one of the reasons why it has proved so difficult to establish any stable and humane, let alone democratic, government to unify the country and take it forward. Probably there will still be a few aged people in Syria who were alive at the time of its independence, who have witnessed this long term failure to sort the government of the country, are now despairing about the future of their great-grandchildren.

    A lot of the internal trouble seems to be about Islamic factions and centres on a dispute over who was the rightful successor to Mohammed in 632 AD. To put that in some kind of perspective, it is as if English people were still slaughtering each other over the defeat of the Christian convert King Edwin of Northumbria by the pagan King Penda of Mercia at the Battle of Hatfield, which was in about the same year.

    As far as I’m concerned if the mass of Germans are willing to hand over their homeland to Syrians and other foreign immigrants then that is their decision, just as long as the influx they apparently want for their country does not spill over to our homeland.

    Reply Catholic and Protestant disputes were still causing trouble in Ulster more recently

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

      Reply to reply:

      Yes, that’s true, and what is that telling us about the psyche of those who use religion and ancient history as a pretext for dominance, slaughter and inhumanity?

      I’d much prefer such people were well away from me and my country.

      Tad

  18. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    We have seen the Greek people self-immolate to preserve the Eurocrats dreams and so why expect any different behaviour from the Germans?

    Also, this is not the first time you have pointed out that the German leadership misleads its own people so it is not the first time that I respond by saying how fortunate we are in this country that we do not suffer from the same naughtiness.

  19. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    This morning I read in several sources that Osborne is off on a trip to Scandinavian capitals to seek support for whatever “reforms” of the EU that his boss may want, and he is quoted as saying that the UK hopes to “reform the EU so it works for all its citizens”.

    And here we see that despite the recurrent refrain from Tory leaders that the EU should not seek to become a state, with all the trappings of a state which they sometimes like to list to make their point to the public, nevertheless at a deeper level of consciousness they will very readily accept that the EU does have “its” citizens just as if it were a state.

    Personally I am content to be a British citizen and do not want the EU citizenship which has been foisted upon me and which I cannot renounce other than by renouncing my British citizenship, as it has even been foisted on the Queen as well, and of course that was done by a Tory Prime Minister through the Maastricht Treaty.

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

      Lest we forget Denis, lest we forget!

      Tad

  20. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Having effectively invited(on behalf of the whole EU) such large numbers to force their way into Europe,Germany now seems to be seeking a forced re-settlement of a significant proportion of these people in other member states.This is likely to be very problematic with many of the Eastern states being either monocultural or having had bad experiences from ethno-religious hostility.I’m sure Russia having re-assumed the tsarist mantle of protector of Slavs,defender of the Orthodox faith and beacon of arch-conservatism will find it difficult not to stir things up if it is perceived to be in her interests.The statement from the Slovak government last week,offering to take a few migrants provided they are not muslims is just a small indicator….as was the rise of the PEGIDA movement in East Germany last year.

  21. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    “Australia saves countless lives due to its strict immigrant policy”
    “EU invites immigrants to kill themselves on the high seas”

    Headlines you will not see on the BBC.

    The social devastation of excessive immigration is bad enough and will no doubt lead to many more lives being lost. However, more immediate is the stupidity of allowing so many in, thus encouraging wave after wave of more immigrants, let alone the gangs that profit from this racket.

    Germany is tied into the eu whose extremists would rather see people die on the high seas (and they know many will die while they maintain their immigration policy) than have sensible immigration policies.

    I am not surprised at the BBC’s political stance, but I think it is disgusting that Germany is allied to these extremists.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

      Kenneth: Those who have been surrepticiously funding the traffickers are to blame; (and worries about the ed) people in the USA who have been pushing the wars of choice, hence whether the migration of refugees or destroying unified nations is their major objective is anybody’s guess, but as in the words of one of their earlier warmongers, “I think it’s worth it” – for them that would be, not for us or anyone else.

      Incidentally, in case you hadn’t realised it, the new spurious casus belli is ‘humanitarian intervention’, this in order to appeal to the left which is why those to be attacked have to be cast as more bloodthirsty than Genghis Khan.

  22. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    “Germany might accept 800,000 this year. ” What guarantee is there that out of those 800k any of them are going to have skills Germany needs – and – out of the rest – what happens if they don’t want to work – and are happy with their lot of German housing and benefits? – Would Germany threaten to deport them if they were found to be of no use – and just a financial burden? or would the blatantly obvious happen? Having got into Europe, they head here – to take their “entitlement” of a lifestyle on benefits, free house and healthcare etc. Those 800k – -and of course the hundreds of thousands who come straight here anyway — -once here – will NEVER go back. Our own “leaders” AND the EU are destroying nations deliberately. I hope they enjoy ruling over a deliberately created 3rd world empire.
    While ever illegal immigrants are “punished” by being put in hotels, waited on and have their rooms cleaned and food brought to them, allowed to walk free, and given spending money – -for having committed criminal offences – the invasion here will continue. its a shame that this govt cares more for illegal immigrants welfare than people who have contributed all their lives.

  23. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    The Government must destroy the myth that every body who works is making a positive contribution to the U.K. economy .

    8/10 of the UK population over the course of their lifetime will be beneficiaries of distribution of wealth from the top 2/10 .

    Jeremy Corbyn , David Cameron and the other advocates of open door immigration policies should be challenged about this .

    How about asking them to admit that further increases in population will result in reductions of per-capita benefits and the state pension ?

    Reply Mr Cameron is a strong advocate of much lower rates of inward migration – the issue is how he achieves this.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 10:48 am | Permalink

      reply to reply
      Reply Mr Cameron is a strong advocate of much lower rates of inward migration – the issue is how he achieves this.
      Then how come immigration is running at an all time high.
      Even that which we can control is around 200,000.
      If you believe Cameron/Osborne are against uncontrolled immigration, you must be really deluded.

      Reply They have a stated policy to do so, and I have heard personally from Mr C that he knows this is a most important pledge.

      • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

        Reply To Reply To Reply :

        Dear John

        Cameron has had every opportunity to deal with the 50% of inward migration he could do something about : the 50% that comes from outside the EU.

        He has brought forward no plans whatsoever to deal with it and that can only mean one thing : he’s paying lip service to the whole idea to placate MPs such as yourself and prevent support for UKIP from growing.

        What possible excuse can he have for not acting on what all opinion polls suggest is the number one issue with the public ?

        When you post on this blog full details of Cameron’s method of dealing with this part of the problem together with a firm timetable for implementation I will believe it.

        I’m not holding my breath. Personally I think it’s all BS.

        Reply I have posted showing you what Ministers have been doing and what more needs to be done. I am about to post another Ministerial report I have received.

        • Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

          Thank you : I will certainly be looking forward to reading the Ministerial report.

          We can only hope it will include an awful lot of actions that are observable, measurable over a defined timescale and meaningful.

          Unlike the laughable EU “renegotiations” which are going to achieve nothing of substance on major issues such as the return of sovereignty and FOM. We’ve all had enough of smoking mirrors.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:47 am | Permalink

      “Reply Mr Cameron is a strong advocate of much lower rates of inward migration – the issue is how he achieves this.”

      CMD is an advocate for all sorts of things, but the only things he ever seems to make any realistic attempt to achieve are wars of choice on behalf of his neocon chums. Bearing in mind that at least half of the objective of the neocon wars is to create a tidal wave of migration into Europe, there is no possibility of reducing the latter without ending the former.

      They’re reports in the press about a ‘choreographed’ row with Hollande, to whom CMD bears a striking resemblance bearing in mind one claims to be English the other French, that CMD is to have in February 2016 at the European Council over CMD’s ‘renegotiation’; perhaps JR could organise a competition for the best hisorical re-enactment of this spurious event to appear on YouTube with the prize of being entertained at the Palace of Westminster.

      Reply Were that really to be his strategy he would not I thought have briefed it out so we all knew it!

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

      Your leader may well be an advocate of much lower rates of immigration to the UK, 600,000 plus last year, I wonder what he will achieve this year. He knows that it can be achieved by the simple act of leaving the EU. He will not contemplate this, so who is pulling his strings.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

      PS

      Without the support staff and water carriers the superstars would be unable to achieve .

      People who look after mentally handicapped etc are making their contribution in a different way .

      I should have been clearer about meaning NET positive FINANCIAL contribution .

      I don’t think the above undermines my point that immigration policy needs to be selective if it is not to result in the benefits being spread more thinly .

  24. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    The gross error the Left makes about Germany and indeed its almost always bearded academic analyses of the Right and the sub-error of necessarily incorporating Fascism as “Right-Wing ” is that racism is a binding a fundamental principle. Therefore it came as an inexplicable shock to the Left in the UK when parties such as UKIP and others they call “Extreme Right-Wing” attracted British people as members, quite alot of them, who were obviously of non-white and non-European ethnicities.

    To be against uncontrolled immigration into a country that one feels is ones own, cuts across racial barriers. You lock your house door to prevent burglary, not because you are (racist ed).

    So, the problem of social upheaval thanks to Merkels pro-burglar policy is just as likely to be enacted by persons of all ethnic groupings. Judging by the politics of migrants’ nations of origin which are markedly Right-Wing, that upheaval may very well be championed by former migrants calling on a ban of more of their ex-countrymen entering the country. Look at America, historically populated by ex-British. It is not impossible for a Brit to go and live there now but its easier for a Mexican.

  25. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    We can do little as people flee and breed .It looks as though Germany are well placed to experience the reality of laying the law down for everyone else and actually being a part of that ideology . The Arians will be replaced by mixing and the wealth will be shared , the human rights laws will be bent and manners and standards will drop .

  26. Posted August 24, 2015 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Germany has long been mislead about the EU ; it turned its back on the knock-on consequences against the advantage of a low cost Euro supporting its exports .The chicken has now come home to roost with the additional problem to Angela of a looming election .

    Having a conscience about the 2nd World War lead Germany into a conciliation with the rest of Europe and hastened the birth of the EU . Today immigrants crossing borders with the freedom EU rules provide are now the biggest problem on the agenda ; integration of these immigrants now produce a dilemma well beyond economics and communities are raising voices of real concern .

    I have no doubt that the conventions and rules covering immigration have to be re-written and put in place in a short period of time ; it is one thing to deal with humanitarian aspect and another to prevent the pure economic aspiration . This problem is world scaled – well beyond the EU borders . Macedonia and Serbia are immediately focussed as is Australia and other places in the Far East . The UN cannot drag its feet on this and those countries at the forefront of the crisis must force the UN to act .

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

      There is a challenge for the UN to create a place (Country) for all these displaced people to go and thrive. I do not think the UN is up to the challenge of doing this.

  27. Posted August 24, 2015 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Based on her track record, nothing much will change while Mrs Merkel remains in charge. It will require a political upheaval – either within her party or at the next elections – before there is a decisive shift away from the prevailing group think. Inertia rules – that is what passes for Mrs Merkel`s political strategy.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 10:28 am | Permalink

      For a considerable time now I have been unable to understand why Angela Merkel is so highly regarded;I’m sure she must be clever to have risen to her current position in what is a relatively meritocratic country but she seems to be an inveterate ditherer and not at all a leader( but perhaps the Germans have had their fill of leaders!).

  28. Posted August 24, 2015 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    All the citizens of the EU are being misled over the depth and speed of integration towards “Every Closer Union.”

    The politicians all know very well that there is no appetite for a USE amongst the voting public in any EU country. This is the real “Democratic Deficit.” The Brussels elite and National Politicians conspire together to avoid talking about what it really means and
    they have successfully disguised the progress they are making towards it, ably assisted by the likes of the BBC, The Guardian etc.

    The game was nearly up when the European Central Bank started their demands for a single budget etc. but the politicians managed to deflect public opinion from focussing on it with the timely help of the Greek crisis.

    It’s obvious that they are now waiting for the Eurozone crisis to get so bad that they will be able to introduce full, centralised fiscal control under the guise of emergency “temporary” legislation that can be pushed through EZ national parliaments in a day or two. They will, of course, at the same time make it impossible to undo later.

    Countries like Germany where almost all politicians are signed up Europhiles and where there is effectively no alternative voice are in the worst position. There isn’t a cat in hells chance of German taxpayers agreeing to the amount of their cash that would have to go South every year to make a currency union work but Merkel will ensure that they are signed up to it anyway.

    In France, there is, at least the Front National who are increasing in influence and are committed to leaving the Euro and seizing back control of their economy.

    The question is whether Hollande retains enough support to allow him to commit France irrevocably before the 2017 General Election.

    The longer this all goes on the more catastrophic and unpleasant the outcome will be.

    Reply The latest Euro 86 billion is on very favourable terms and unlikely ever to be repaid, so it is effectively a grant.

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      Reply to Reply :

      This confirms everything I said in the post. The politicians have given away another €86bn of their own taxpayers money by fraudulently claiming it was yet another loan !

      In the long term the EU can only survive if politicians and EU officials carry out policies that have the support of their electorate and they can therefore be honest about what they are doing.

      Until politicians and offcials become realistic in their aspirations, the EU will remain an enormous con job. Deeply undemocratic and an edifice built on quicksand.

      We want nothing to do with it.

  29. Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    When the Berlin Wall fell I was working in an office that included several West Germans. Initial euphoria soon gave way to comments about not seeing why they should be giving so much to the feckless “Ossis”. It was an interesting insight into the “Wessi” mindset.

  30. Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    The one thing about most EU immigration to the UK, which I have no problem with, is that they mostly have jobs to go and add to the economic well bring of the country. Also a lot brits live and work in the EU The latest Refugees have no job and are expensive burden a and cost money. I have no problem with genuine refugees, but looking at some of the interviews most seem to be economic migrants. Perhaps we should be looking at an type Australian solution. The wheat can sorted from the chaff then. Its not the EU is the problem is that the western world has been infected false liberal ideas which has been exploited by all and sundry . But we also should be aware that some of the problems are our fault, by either interfering in other countries business or not finishing the job properly.

  31. Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    The lady is between a rock and a hard place. Fear not, the EU will flout it’s own rules when circumstances dictate the need, or put another way when the downside begins to be felt in Germany or France. Recall the financial chicanery when it came to baling out component countries, and the criminality in the case of Cypriot banks.

    Pleased you now accept that net migration figures are a smokescreen to disguise the fact that last year immigration to the UK was in excess of 600,000.

    Ultimately it will be the German people who decide the fate of Merkel and the EU. They have been very slow to understand the downside of the EU and it’s glue the Euro. Mostly because a very weak Euro has given them very cheap export opportunities.

    I do not have much sympathy with Greek politicians. They fudged their financial figures to enter the Euro, enjoyed the short term benefits of it, but are now reaping the downside. The latest set of politicians lacked the courage to take the Greeks out of the Euro when confronted with German pressure. The Germans had much to lose, about Euros 100 Billion in loans and another Euros 100 Billion in unpaid Greek central bank to German central bank trading loans.

    I do sympathise with the Greek people who have been conned by successive governments to believe that by being in the Euro you can have something for nothing. The Greek situation remains a disaster awaiting the final act.

    The most unbelievable act to come from this route to disaster is that your leader would have us continue to belong. He cannot explain himself and will not explain himself, thinking he can achieve his ends with a smoke and mirrors trick.

  32. Posted August 24, 2015 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    A little before the late Conservative Prime Minister Harold MacMillan’s Wind of Change speech in the South African Parliament in 1960, promotional “advertisements” featured regularly on everyone’s monochrome televisions or tellies ( TVs didn’t exist then ). It spent a good three minutes each time showing row upon row of neat little black and white bungalow-type buildings. These “specially built homes are for YOU the British worker”. “Come to Sunny South Africa ” “A Wonderful Country for your children”.
    Well things change and I guess those home from homes never got occupied, not sure what happened to them, even though many in my locality in Yorkshire were then either living in lodgings or in tiny post war metal prefabs which bilged out coal-smoke over one anothers washing lines.

    Perhaps the now Republic of South Africa with EU resettlement money and British Overseas Aid money would be ideally suited for all the migrants hitting the shores of Europe. It would be a shorter distance to travel too for some African refugees. Germany should not be so selfish in accepting migrants when obviously they would lead a better life in South Africa
    The Conservative Government can hardly disapprove of the idea since it championed the new South Africa and the Labour Party campaigned and ruined many a decent cricket match for the democracy and freedom now in SA.

  33. Posted August 24, 2015 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Oh I forgot. The little bungalows in South Africa were “Council Houses for British workers, very low rents and your rent will be collected on your door step ( sounded like stoep ) weekly ” )

  34. Posted August 24, 2015 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Maybe the Germans were hoping for lots of Polish and Czech and Lithuanian/Latvian workers who would ‘Germanise’ in a generation, or create their own little communities – and in some places clean up communities. That’s what’s happening here in the UK after all.

    I’m pretty sure even Brown and Blair wouldn’t have just said “let in millions of unskilled 3rd world refugees who just want benefits and free housing and healthcare, that’s a surefire way to sort the economy right out!”

    if Germany enforces proper border controls and we, the French, the Dutch and the Belgians do the same, it might just stem the tide a bit. And once these economic migrants realise it’s not that easy to reach the land of taxpayer-provided milk and honey, they’ll have to stop in Italy and Greece. And once the Meds can no longer just usher them through, maybe then they’ll sort out their own border controls. It’s hard to see the Greek Islands, or maybe even Greece as a whole, still existing as a country in 20 years’ time.

    Ultimately, and although I fully understand the original good intent behind the Freedom of Movement principle, the whole issue of EU internal national border control has to be addressed immediately if not sooner! I’m fairly confident that this island will sort its border control out shortly, but in 100 years’ time we’ll be like a western Japan stuck on the edge of an unrecognisable Europe inhabited by….who knows? But whoever does inhabit and rule the once great continent of Europe, I’d bet we won’t be that keen to trade with them!

    • Posted August 25, 2015 at 10:43 am | Permalink

      A good proportion of the German national football team was Polish or born to Polish immigrants .

      They wouldn’t have won the World Cup without them .

  35. Posted August 24, 2015 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    I know many young working people who would like to have families but can’t afford to. Most mums would like to stay at home – housing is unaffordable and getting worse because of the immigration issue which was designed – ironically – to solve the ageing population issue.

    The only people who can afford to breed in any comfort are the very rich and the welfare dependent. So our conservative indiginous population dwindles while the newcomers multiply.

    Germany has probably made the same mistake.

    How many refugees accepted by Germany (or any other country for that matter) make their way on to Britain once they have citizenship ? We only see the stupid ones at Calais. The Tunnel isn’t the route I’d take into Benefit Britain – unless it was on seat in the Eurostar.

    Once again – I ask in all seriousness – why do we need so many politicians if all they are going to do is ignore the will and concerns of the people ?

    For our country to be run as badly as it is do we really need anything like 650 MPs, the Lords, a full cabinet and all manner of hangers on and security bods ?

    You demand cuts from ordinary people (rightly) but should also be taking a proportionate amount of cuts yourselves.

  36. Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    The EU is not the only thing the Germans are tiring of.
    The is off Guido’s blog..

  37. Posted August 24, 2015 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    the cost of renewables in Germany has risen to an eye watering £28 billion annually meaning the average household pays £270 subsidy for renewables.
    The government are forced to pay coal fired stations which have been closed, to stay on standby to stabilise the grid.
    Is anyone in the UK government listening….

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      No, Ian, they are not. They have been told all this for years now. Indeed people like you and I knew about the costs involved in this renewables crap but politicians refused to listen. We are all reaping the rewards of their incompetence.

    • Posted August 24, 2015 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

      Ian

      Is anyone in the UK government listening….

      Our host and maybe 100 or so supporters? As for the rest no chance. They have all been taken in by the latest religion and nothing here is going to change until the Climate Change Act is repealed and the DECC is either abolished or broken up into smaller units each focused on just one specific area. Holding back the date of stopping subsidies till next year is a total nonsense. Guillotine the whole lot now why wait? Already the developers are submitting plans for extensions to existing wind farms to get more subsidies as a way around the proposed cuts. Still what can you expect from a Sussex based politician who has no idea what it is to actually live with the turbines and watch their property investment fall around anything from 20-30% and can do nothing. The RE investors and believers have had it all for far too long and we the energy bill payers have lost out every step of the way. The investors are totally focused on their dividends and nothing else, why should they be concerned with the millions in fuel debt and poverty?

      Will CMD do anything about it? Don’t hold your breath.

      How much has all this greencrap cost?

      In real terms allowing for fossil fuel power stations on standby, how much CO2 have we actually really saved? Three fifths of naff all.

      No they ain’t listening and have no intention of doing so until they have driven this country into the ground.

      Shades of Agenda 21.

  38. Posted August 24, 2015 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Germany will not give up on ruling Europe full stop! You have to be crazy to think they would do so or be stupid.

  39. Posted August 25, 2015 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    I expect the German people will be allowed about as much say in the process as the Conservative Party allowed the British people: ie none.

    And don’t bother saying that Cameron is giving us a Referendum now. It’s 4o years too late.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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