Death in Paris

We all send our sympathies to the people of Paris who faced a series of barbarous attacks last night. Our thoughts are with the families who have lost loved ones.

The western intelligence agencies do often intercept and prevent such atrocities. When an attack gets through it provides additional incentive to improve and augment the Intelligence effort. Such events lead governments to take action after the event which may be counter productive. Disrupting the lives of many and changing the normal pattern after all the attackers are dead or arrested gives the terrorists an extra win.

Free and open societies are vulnerable to such madness and badness. Each of the gunmen  was someone’s son, or brother or other friend or relative. The authorities need the vigilance and support of all of us, as they are only as good as the evidence and information they receive or collect. None of us want to live in a society of spies and informers, but we do need to think our neighbours and fellow citizens would report conduct that could be the prelude to mass murder.

The other thing we need from the authorities is a rapid and decisive response as soon as any armed incident is reported. Potential assassins need to know they are likely to be killed before they can kill many.

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81 Comments

  1. Pete
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    Another false flag attack in France. Lets guess what the reaction of our politicians will be. More laws, more restrictions, more surveillance and less freedom for the serfs.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      No they are not that devious they are just incompetent. This is what happens when you leave your borders wide open and do not vet in anyway who comes through them.

    • Joe soap
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:38 am | Permalink

      But this combined with taking thousands upon thousands of immigrants, be they asylum seekers or terrorists. In the end it doesn’t stack up. A fuse will blow.

    • Horatio McSherry
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:53 am | Permalink

      Unfortunately, I agree. The state exisis for the state and nothing else. It must monitor everyone. The beast is always hungry.

    • hefner
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      Pete,
      You wrote your false flag comment at 08:38 this morning. Do you maintain it tonight?

  2. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    “Potential assassins need to know they are likely to be killed before they can kill many.”

    140+ innocent people dead against 8 terrorists dead is not a good ratio.

    • Mark
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      I gather the BBC also talked of “execution”, as if the terrorists had conducted some due judicial process before murdering their victims in cold blood.

  3. Cheshire Girl
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    I feel very sorry for those caught up in the latest atrocity in Paris. Doubtless we shall hear the same old platitudes from the Politicians, about making sure that ‘it never happens again’. It is reported that David Cameron was ‘shocked’ to hear about it. I’m not quite sure why, as this country is deemed to be at high risk of a terrorist attack. The truth is, that we have tried to help put things right abroad, but have put ourselves in danger in the process. I notice that President Hollande was ‘whisked away for his own safety’ . I dont wish him any ill will, but it is noticeable in these incidents that the Politicians are the first to be protected!

  4. Iain Moore
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    “None of us want to live in a society of spies and informers,”

    But that is the society that has been created to make the mad multicultural experiment work. When we had a mono cultural society we had collective security, and could afford to have a space for descent and free speech. With multiculturalism free speech has had to be curtailed lest some imported culture or other gets offended , and where we have spy on people to see if they are planing some atrocity against us.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 9:21 am | Permalink

      Well Special Branch was founded in 1883 as the Irish Special Branch, so state spying to prevent terrorism is not new; technology has moved on, so the ability to spy must also move on. What I don’t want is new spying powers to be made available to every Tom Dick and Harry in the state apparatus, they should be restricted to those who are responsible for countering terrorism, and I don’t think a maximum two years in prison for abuse of the powers is anywhere near an adequate deterrent.

  5. The PrangWizard
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Each of the gunmen was someone’s son, or brother or other friend or relative.

    and

    None of us want to live in a society of spies and informers, but we do need to think our neighbours and fellow citizens would report conduct that could be the prelude to mass murder.

    Fat chance. How often do we hear after the event from these very same people that ‘he was just an ordinary guy, and he was so polite and friendly’, or ‘it wasn’t his fault – the police have made a mistake – it wasn’t him – he was only trying to defend himself’ and equally preposterous excuses.

    These killers are surrounded by sympathisers and supporters who would never think of going to the police in advance, they are part of the problem, and the majority of them have the same goal in mind, the subversion and overthrow of our society and the creation of one they want.

    Too many people in positions of authority and influence, in the media for example, have their heads in the sand, are afraid to speak the truth, and make their own excuses instead, we’ve had one of the BBC’s favourite appeasement regulars, Professor Paul Rogers, (‘Peace Studies’) saying it’s the West’s fault, they are only defending themselves. ‘It’s our war in the Middle East coming back to the West’. This is never challenged.

    It is only the ordinary people who do have been warning of the dangers for years but they are demeaned, criticised, abused and very often excluded when they have attempted to speak out.

    But then friendship towards potential enemies and murdering fanatics extends to government, after all isn’t it they who are part of the lunacy encouraging the immigration of people who have no intention of integrating into our ways and beliefs, helping them get across the Mediterranean in Her Majesty’s ships? Our leaders are weak and in being so place us at ever increasing risk.

    It won’t be long before a couple of men in an armed pick-up truck are ‘at the bottom of your street’. Positive and urgent action must be taken in proper defence of the nation by preventing any more people getting here and deporting in large numbers the people who are here but shouldn’t be.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

      It was interesting to hear Kim Howells, former chair of the HoC intelligence committee on R5L yesterday. No appeasement from him when commenting on the death of “Jihadi John”. JR why can I not echo what he says without having my contribution deleted or having to self censor it beforehand?

    • Bob
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

      So one of the terrorists was a Syrian refugee who came into the EU through the Greek island of Leros in October.

      I seem to remember one of the UK’s political leaders warning of this and being pilloried as a racist.

      Political correctness will be the death of western civilisation.

  6. Ex-expat Colin
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    “Potential assassins need to know they are likely to be killed before they can kill many.”

    I don’t think thats included in their handbook. Borders are enticingly wide open and a border post is nothing against a wide open landmass and coast. Bits of wire?

    Also, its interesting (not) that we might think of them as someone’s relatives. Thats not in their handbook either. Beheading/murder various precludes them….bad breath ?

    Liberalism isn’t working! Caliphate won’t either, but nothing much is stopping it in the wider world of long lunches and talks currently!

    Not sure that anything to do with vigilance in this silly country will be appreciated..might slightly upset someone? No…its not funny!

    Obama and France with us shoulder to shoulder? Not always true…absence from NATO not so long ago. Meanwhile NATO is off somewhere else….training or something?

    A truly terrifying event that will be exceeded I’m sure.

  7. Lifelogic
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Indeed my sympathy to all those affected by this dreadful & pointless attack. But the reaction of governments should just be to pick up the pieces, treat the injured and let every one get on with their lives as best they can. Just as they would after a plane crash, earth quake or other such tragedy.

    It should not be to help the terrorists closing things down by laws, security and regulations.

    Better intelligence is almost all the state can do to prevent it.

  8. fedupsoutherner
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    what a terrible tragedy and how luck we are that this hasn’t happened in London. Surely we must take a look at security and consider border controls? Why are we still letting in thousands of migrants who we know nothing about? We need to go back to our old ways and secure our people and our countries.

    • APL
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 12:18 am | Permalink

      fedupsoutherner: “what a terrible tragedy .. ”

      Wrong. It was not a tragedy, it was an atrocity.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 7:11 am | Permalink

        Surly both an atrocity and a dreadful tragedy.

  9. alan jutson
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Desperate news of yet more terrorism in Europe.

    Unfortunately this is partly the result of open borders, where people and terrorists can seemingly roam at will.

    Of course or intelligence agencies try to keep track of “known people” but unfortunately those unknowns are exactly that, unknown.

    Our security services simply do not have the manpower to keep a track of all bad people who wish to do us harm.

    Just do the simple maths.

    It probably takes 20 people to keep one person under constant surveillance, if they in turn make 20 contacts with others, it requires another 20 x 20 people to track them, if they in turn make contact with just 10 more people, then to another 10 x 20 people needed etc, etc.

    Thus before you have reached the third contact you have thousands of people involved attempting to cover just a few.

    The first hurdle for the terrorists should be the most difficult, and that is at the point of entry.
    Strong and secure borders are an absolute must.

    Yes fully aware that people already here can be influenced, and that is where our electronic security needs to be up to scratch and if necessary beefed up.

    As I have said in previous posts, perhaps we should re-evaluate which service should be responsible for fighting terrorist activity.

    My thoughts are with those innocent people families who suffered last night.

  10. Original Richard
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    I’m afraid we need far more to be done than those you have proposed.

    Is our government now finally going to control our borders and drastically cut back both EU and in particular non-EU immigration ?

    Is the government finally going to immediately deport illegal immigrants and hence stop the flow of millions of people from the Middle East and Africa ?

    Is the government finally going to tackle the non European practices of FGM, forced, and first cousin marriages, “honour killings”, polygamy and slavery ?

    Is the government finally going to tackle multilingual institutions, segregated meetings and “no-go” areas such as streets where the post is delivered to just one house ?

    Is the government finally going to tackle electoral fraud and intimidation by banning postal voting and hence allowing everyone to have a vote ?

    Is the government going to tackle child abuse, not only the sexual explaoitation of young girls, but also where young children are never allowed out of the home and where young boys are “schooled” every evening from tea time to bedtime.

    Or, are we going to get a lot of hand-wringing and words and where nothing changes ?

  11. ian wragg
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Why, Oh why do we keep importing people who wish us harm. When are you going to wake up to the fact that we are being displaced with the consent of our leaders but to what end one wonders.
    Is it some Bilderberg plot to destroy Western civilisation to give the others a chance. Why are we heading for turning the clock back 600 years.
    It won’t end well, the Germans are already (in disagreement with their government’s migration policy? ed) but you wouldn’t know this from the BBC.

    • old salt
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

      I did read somewhere recently there is a plan in action for multiculturalism and mass immigration to destroy nation states.

      • Bob
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:01 am | Permalink

        @old salt

        “I did read somewhere recently there is a plan in action for multiculturalism and mass immigration to destroy nation states.”

        It’s called the Coudenhove-Kalergi plan.

      • old salt
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:20 am | Permalink

        Follow up with origin of above 11:17 comment:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

  12. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Like in “The of the Jackal” ,the French President sniffs danger on the wind.Deep deep instinct,- he closes the borders. In this case preventing his countrymen from fleeing the danger within from long-stay guests with devilish attitude. An accomplice extraordinaire to the terrorist massacre of his own people. Twice.

  13. DaveM
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Surely this is enough now. No doubt the European leaders will have a get together. Maybe they could do something worthwhile this time.

    Enforce full border controls across Europe. Stop being soft, full stop. Empty out these refugee and asylum centres. Increase funding to security forces and allow them to do their jobs without human rights getting in the way. Deport anyone who is a blatant enemy of the state. This isn’t a description of a police state, this is called looking after yourself.

    European leaders need to become tough. The people are tough enough, they just need strong leaders.

    If this happened all across Europe and all European countries cooperated in the interests of security we might actually have some kind of European alliance that was worth being a part of. At the minute it’s just the soft underbelly of the world, obsessed with a stupid single currency and political correctness. You can’t have a single market without markets – we need to repair the walls and the roof before we start arranging the furniture.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

      Dear Dave–Couldn’t agree more. It’s a mercy that we haven’t been told by the legal lovers that Hollande was acting contrary to some highly artificial so-called Law by talking about War when none such has been declared.

  14. MickN
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Cameron and Merkel are both “shocked” apparently.
    How is it that I am neither shocked or surprised. Anyone who can see past the blinkers of PC could see this was going to happen. It will happen again and it will happen in the UK. It is not a case of “if” but more of “when”
    If you fail to lock your house up when you go out sooner or later someone will be there when you get home who you would rather not have as a guest.

  15. Know-Dice
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Yes, sympathies to the people of Paris & France.

    As they say “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” may be it’s time to support Putin and his support for Assad regardless of how distasteful that may be.

    Sitting in comfy Wokingham I can’t see a way that we can sort out the good rebels from the bad rebels…

  16. Graham
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    The same politicians who let these killers into all of Europe are the same ones who cry crocodile tears when things like this happens and propose days of mourning so that they can parade their grief.

    No doubt security checks will be increased and continue to focus on normal old ladies and babies in a real attempt to flush out terrorists with beards – but they know best don’t they.

    Joined up thinking by politicians – not a chance.

    Yours very angry at all the stupidity

  17. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Marine Le Pen tweeted 11 hours ago:

    ” Une colère froide nous serre le cœur ” ( A cold anger squeezes us the heart. )

    She has since abandoned electioneering as a mark of respect for the dead.
    She does seem to be the only alert leader in Europe willing to take the necessary steps to safeguard people. Pity, at least on this issue terrorism and immigration, she is not President of Europe and ..the UK, before it happens here.

  18. stred
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    It was reported that the attackers said their action was because of the French joining the action against IS in Syria. They take their lead from the fanatics there and in other ME countries. IS is able to operate communications from Syria, sell oil and ancient treasures and travel through its borders. The West and Russia have very powerful weapons but do not use them because IS holds hostages. These unfortunate people are unlikely to survive in a ‘state’ run by psychopaths. Eventually it will have to be wipe out time. Once the state has gone, the decent Muslims will feel safe to turn in the psychos living in other countries.

    • Bazman
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

      This approach was taken by the Russian in Chechnya
      In 1999, the Russian government forces again invaded Chechnya, in response to the invasion of Dagestan by Chechen-based Islamic forces. By early 2000 Russia almost completely destroyed the city of Grozny and succeeded in putting Chechnya under direct control of Moscow. With strong evidence showing plans for mass deportations had this war failed. Radical Islamists from Chechnya and other North Caucasian republics are still being held responsible for a number of terrorist attacks throughout Russia.

  19. Bert Young
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    The attacks in Paris demonstrate to the world that a co-ordinated international response against terror groups is the only way to tackle and overcome groups who plan and undertake these horrific acts . If the facts emerge that it was IS who ordered the atrocities , then it is the responsibility of the world to respond and stop it happening again . The UN is the appropriate body to do this and it must act quickly .

  20. John C.
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    The very symbol of modern Europe: crowds cheering multi-millionaire footballers, even doing the Mexican Wave, while outside grenades are exploding and masked Islamist gunmen are slaughtering scores. And the game goes on.

  21. Kenneth
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    It certainly makes one think that our own unsung security services have done well in limiting this kind of attack in the UK.

    That said, we now live in a state where people are spied on in places of worship and I fear that this will get worse. To avoid a police state I’m afraid we must be much more picky over whom we allow into the country.

    Thoughts and prayers for those poor people in France.

  22. Bill
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    The authorities need to be prepared for multiple simultaneous attacks and to analyse why particular locations were chosen and so try to forestall similar atrocities in the UK.

    We also need to work on the route by which arms reach the hands of terrorists and the radicalisation process.

  23. Horatio McSherry
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    John, an absolutely excellent post, as ever. Posts like this are the reason I and many others come to read your thoughts on a daily basis.

    Already I’m reading disturbing comments that this could be a precursor to the UK taking action in Syria. If this is the case, it’s utter madness. We’ve (thankfully) missed the boat on Syria and nothing we do there other than supporting the Russians and Assad will be catastrophic folly. We may not like Putin – and he may have other motives for doing what he’s doing – but it just happens that it’s been the right thing. The UK taking action in Syria will do absolutely nothing to prevent these attacks and would be a purely cynical political exercise.

    There is no single solution to terrorism like this, however politicians ignoring the publics’ concerns – and even the berating of the public for having those concerns – is a major reason why these attacks are becoming more common. France has had a racial and religious problem bubbling for year: I know this, you know this, the media and politicians know this; but politicians have not only purposely shut down any and all debate; they’ve victimised anyone who voices them. They’re free to do so because usually they don’t have to live with the concequences.

    As the great Dire Straits sang: “We have just one world. But we live in different ones”.

  24. turbo terrier
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Potential assassins need to know they are likely to be killed before they can kill many.

    Like the Japanese in WW2 they hold no fear of death. It is what they believe in their cause and the teachings of their leaders.

    The intelligence services across the whole free world has to up the anti and like the combined operation with the US, Jhaidi John was (hopefully) destroyed.

    It will remain to be seen if the Corbyns of this world will support whatever action it takes to remove this scourge on all of society.

  25. Wokingham Child
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    My 11 year old asked,
    Isis is doing all this scary stuff and now in Paris whilst we one of the most powerful counties in the world do nothing to stop it. Why don’t we America, Russia, Europe and anyone else who wants to help join together, and do what ever it takes and make the world safe again? Are we scared of them?
    How do I answer that?

    Reply Because there is no easy way for us to make Syria safe. Peace is going to require a political process in Syria. We cannot lead it – we do not understand all the factions, religions and languages that make up the conflict. It is going to take Arab initiatives to resolve this.

  26. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Watching an ancient video, future university history students in 3015AD will gasp with disbelief, inappropriate laughs, grins, chuckles, display concerned frowns way older than their young foreheads should ordinarily countenance, Mr Cameron, Prime Minister of the UK, standing with smiling glee in Wembley Stadium in front of an audience of 60,000 human beings. Not come to see him. Not come to hear him. But come to hear, come to see and almost worship the leader of a country from the opposite side of the world. And out of his earshot, the shots rang out 22 miles across the Channel, shot not by human beings come to see and hear the leader of France.

    Mr Cameron has a rare intelligence rarely applied.

  27. Bazman
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Maybe you could explain to use John how keeping the web browsing history of the population is going to help prevent these acts and how if it does your government intends to ban high end encryption through anonymous web browsers and VPN’s maybe using all three which anyone planning such atrocities would use?
    It plain snooping.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 10:02 am | Permalink

      I suppose you could have said the same about Walsingham’s interception of the correspondence of Mary Queen of Scots. Didn’t the silly fool realise that it was all in code? However it seems that he went beyond passive surveillance to active entrapment, which is a different matter.

      As far as I’m concerned if those employed by the state to counter terrorism say that in their professional view it would be helpful if ISP’s had to keep records of all their customers’ browsing histories and email communications for a year so they would have that information available for their investigations then I’m not going to argue with them that this would serve no useful purpose.

      I want it restricted to counter-terrorism and I want stronger safeguards against abuse than are proposed at present, but I am not against it in principle.

      • Bazman
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

        They would say wouldn’t they? This justifying mass surveillance one presumes. How about the freedom to search your house helping them too? You would not argue with that either? I mean if enough safeguards were put in place?

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted November 15, 2015 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

          I do argue with it when it’s done without a warrant, as sometimes happens on Midsomer Murders … so I suppose you think you should have an absolute right to use your home for whatever criminal purpose you choose without any possibility of discovery in a search. No?

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted November 15, 2015 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

          I would add to this that a physical search of somebody’s home is far more intrusive and potentially traumatic than a virtual search of the records of their internet activities. If you came to the attention of an anti-terrorist unit then you wouldn’t even know that they’d checked out what you’d been up to on the internet for the last year before they’d decided that you could be cleared of suspicion. On the other hand if you were suspected of some ordinary and perhaps not even very serious serious crime then you’d certainly know if armed police smashed down your door in a dawn raid and ripped your place apart. As I’ve already said I don’t want any Tom Dick or Harry in the state apparatus to be able to poke their nose into what I’ve been doing on the internet, but it’s small beer compared to a house search.

          • Bazman
            Posted November 16, 2015 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

            How about keeping records on books read and newspapers bought too if this is also wanted by the security services or tapes of phone calls. Small beer compared a house search as you say.
            Will not be checking on site I visit as I will be using an anonymous browser and a VPN should this become law, but if you are trusting enough to show your thoughts then go ahead, but remember this when they use this evidence of any site that may be dubious or seen as used against you in any investigation that may occur such as happened to the mother of Steven Laurence.

  28. A different Simon
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Rather than spending more public money importing terrorists and to-be terrorists into our homeland how about investing a little bit of money on educating British children instead ?

    At so many depressed places in the UK the education for 16-18 year olds is useless .

    The stress that failing schools cause children is leading to increased mental illness and suicides .

    Our PM and Chancellor have had everything handed to them on a plate including the keys to power and the best education money can buy .

    Out of recognition of how lucky they have been , couldn’t they do a tiny bit for disadavantaged British children by improving the quality education available to them ?

  29. ian
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Just waiting for the euro and European stocks to be sold off and to be sent to the USA for investing, to which we shall see some next week and then a flood, as the usa market closed last night in freefall.
    The market been waiting for this, it was well forecast if it wasn’t this week it would been the end of nov before the fed meeting, all I can say to you is remember the motto, that tell you all you need to know.

  30. Christine Constable
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    John, surely to God the likes of Merkel and Hollande are persuaded that mass inward migration is a disaster for the EU and why we are even having a debate on the UK’s wish to control inward migration beats me. The people of the UK are right to worry that all those granted asylum in Germany will more than likely find their way to the UK, terrorists; psychotic killers and religious zealots being a large part of the contingent likely to come here – the rest will be welfare dependent dead weight.

    The EU is nothing more than a nightmare brought about by the impossibly lofty and unrealistic ideals of EU elites who never have to dirty their hands dealing with the human debris.

    The deteriorating situation is reason enough to get out of the EU and to impose heavy restrictions on single Muslim men travelling restriction free to the UK – we have to get control of our borders even now it may well be too late, but doing nothing and listening to the hand wringing from Berlin and Paris will get us nowhere – the UK must take a lead Merkel and Hollande are incapable.

    • forthurst
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

      “…lofty and unrealistic ideals of EU elites…”

      In an article by Peter Sutherland (ex-European Commissioner) and Cecilia Malstrom (European Commissioner) in a Project Syndicate article, “Europe’s Immigration Challenge” which is worth reading in full; however here’s just two snippets, “Consider Sweden, which has transformed its immigration policy by allowing employers to identify the immigrant workers whom they need (the policy has built-in safeguards to give preference to Swedish and EU citizens). In more rational times, these reforms would be the envy of Europe, especially given the relative resilience of Sweden’s economy. They certainly have caught the attention of Australia and Canada, which aim to emulate them.” A wonderful place Sweden, especially for young female Swedes of Nordic appearance. Here’s another, “Equally important is international cooperation on migration. Last year, during the Arab revolutions, the EU missed a historic opportunity to begin weaving together the two sides of the Mediterranean. It failed to open its doors to young students, entrepreneurs, and other North Africans. Today, the EU is making a more serious effort to engage its southern neighborhood.” Pure multiculturist (theory ed). They begin there article with, “Europe faces an immigration predicament. Mainstream politicians, held hostage by xenophobic parties, adopt anti-immigrant rhetoric to win over fearful publics…” It’s the ‘elites’ who are the xenophobes; they hate us and use economic arguments to advocate the destruction of Western countries and societies and their fusion into a multicultural soup to feasted on by banksters.

  31. Trevor Butler
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    I was wrong – I admit it – I thought this sort of thing would happen in Berlin or Stockholm before Paris – It’s going to get ugly…

  32. English Pensioner
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    There is a big difference between Islamic terrorism and any that we’ve faced before. Up to now, terrorists have done their best to avoid getting killed. The IRA, for example, planted bombs but always planned an escape route, and as far as I can remember, they never carried out any attack which could be described as a suicide mission. Islamic terrorists don’t care if they get killed, their beliefs tell them they will go to paradise. This belief makes it virtually impossible to defend against attacks of the type that have taken place in Paris.
    Our one-time advantage of living on an island has long gone. If illegal immigrants can get into the country with comparative ease, just imagine how guns and explosives might have been brought into the country from the continent where they are more freely available. We need to significantly step up our border controls, although I suspect it would now be far to late as the weapons will already be in the country.

  33. Bazman
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    I put forward the question a few years ago on this site what was in place to stop the type of commando attack in this country and got the impression that it did not want to be examined. The internet provides inspiration and instruction on how to build the weapons and tactics required and also allows secret communication to facilitate this. It also allows the results to be showed without restriction or censorship.
    How does the government intend to regulate this rise of the internet which is by far the most dangerous thing to face western democracy. The Chinese have a very scale censorship and positive propaganda scheme as do Russia. Maybe they could help us as they are doing with our energy needs? In the meantime maybe it could be shut down and licences issued for legitimate users under a sort of pay per view scheme of basic websites needed for everyday activities such as banking and e mail.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

      Welcome back Bazman

      Your boys took one helluva beating !!!!

      As to your post, I thought about it and my response is …… wibble.

      Oh alright I’ll point out the blindingly obvious. I guess youre a Corbynista in which case you should be very familiar with the 1970’s. In that decade we had many many many terrorist atrocities committed in the UK. The internet wasn’t in operation until the mid 1990’s. I think you’ll find its not the internet thats to blame.

      • Bazman
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:55 am | Permalink

        More denialist nonsense. The internet really does not play a part in the recruitment of terrorists and the facilitation of terrorists acts? As if and if the IRA had access to the internet they may well have learned how to make more effective bombs and the whole thing could have been very different.
        You both have form in believing if something does not exist it cannot.

      • Lindsay McDougall
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

        We also had ‘People’s QE’ in the 1970s. It lead to hyperinflation.

    • Edward2
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

      Its not the internet.
      etc ed

      • libertarian
        Posted November 15, 2015 at 10:11 am | Permalink

        Edward2

        Yes we know its the World Wide Web, but that doesnt work without the Internet

        • Edward2
          Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:48 am | Permalink

          I was edited in my reply Libertarian.
          I was just saying that blaming the world wide web or the internet is irrelevant and trying to ban it or close it down is not going to happen.
          It is just a form of communication.
          It is not the driver of this terrorism.
          We have a death cult that has declared war on us.

          • Bazman
            Posted November 18, 2015 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

            Why do totalitarian regimes restrict access to the web and why are most governments suspicious of it?
            The web is not a driver of terrorism? They could use Morse code I suppose. Get real and the web is used access any number of potential terrorist targets such as power stations, banking medical equipment and as more equipment relies on the net the treats become more real.

  34. Bob
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Francois Hollande should organise another procession of EU leaders with recycled Je Suis Charlie banners, and we can light up Tower Bridge in the colours of the French flag, and hold all kinds of candlelight vigils and memorial services.

    Then Francois & Angela can join the greeters meeting the train loads of doctors and nurses arriving in Munich (and after getting their EU passports subsequently move to the UK to save the NHS after our doctors have left for Australia).

    I don’t blame our leaders for these situations, I blame the people who vote for them.

    • ian wragg
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

      ….. I blame the people who vote for them. Trouble is Bob except for Ukip, AfD, Le Penn and a few others, all post war political parties subscribe to the same ideology, mass immigration, multi culturalism and denigrating the indigenous population.
      Taking the lead from America they wish for a world government with the sheeple cowed into submission.
      Why else would Cameron, Murky etc etc keep importing thousands of people who openly admit they are out to destroy us.

    • adams
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

      BOB . I never vote for them . Just remember under FPTP we always get a government that most people did not vote for . 2005 election 2010 and 2015 being particularly glaring examples .
      A disgrace which is making a huge lump under the political carpet .

    • M Browne
      Posted November 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

      I totally agree with your last paragraph.

      Did anyone listen to the ‘Any Answers’ programme today on BBC Radio4, presented by Anita Anand ?
      I did and all we got was the usual BBC multi-cultural claptrap. The people phoning in were weeded out before getting on air, but any robust right of centre comments that did get through, were treated to the usual disdainful tone of voice that this presenter habitually uses to those with whom she disagrres.
      There are many comments on other sites about her typical BBC/Guardian/Independant bias.

  35. Iain Gill
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Well a NATO country has been attacked, we are all obliged to join in on their side.

  36. Gary
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on
    a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
    it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
    don’t want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
    Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
    country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
    drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
    dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
    voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
    That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
    and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
    country to danger. It works the same in any country.” – Hermann Goering

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 10:05 am | Permalink

      So we’re not being attacked, then, it’s all made up by the media.

  37. Bob
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Heard on the news that Gatwick North Terminal was evacuated today because of a French man with a hand grenade.

    What have we done to provoke attacks from the French?

    Is it Dave’s renegotiation demands on our EU membership?

    • Mark
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 8:56 am | Permalink

      I think it would have been more honest had the man been described as possessing a French passport. When eventually his picture and name is released as he passes through the law courts, his real origins will become apparent. I do not expect him to resemble d’Artagnan for all that he is said to have been wielding a couple of guns.

  38. Old Albion
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    The reality is the open door Europe policy has invited the terrorists in and no government has the balls to tackle the issue.

  39. Sean
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    The Eu should hold their heads in shame,

    • Bob
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      The EU leaders are shameless in their pursuit of the Charlemagne Prize.

  40. libertarian
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    I’m truly dismayed by what I’ve read on this thread.

    ( I see Bazman is back and with an idea to shut down the internet , I guess as his beloved Labour party has been smashed he’s joined the Greens).

    Do none of you see that terrorism wont be halted by stopping immigration? A day trip tourist can just as easily set off an outrage .

    Immigration causes many problems but terrorism isnt one of them.

    I’m 60 years of age and despite the EU lying that theyve preserved peace in Europe there has been terrorist conflict, coups and wars my entire life.

    I personally have been the victim of terrorist incidents twice, neither bought about by immigrants.

    What we see here is a backward, medieval gang of people trying to impose violent destruction on the West. Why? because the West has provided equality, freedom, health and wealth to all. Those in groups like Daesh and AQ are trying to appropriate it by force rather than work towards it by freedom, democracy and hard work.

    Last week a Russian tourist jet was downed, today 147 people have been killed by islamist militants in Ghana these atrocities arent caused by immigration.

    I’m not saying that immigration doesn’t cause problems. What I’m saying is that so far the solutions to terrorism offered on here amount to closing our borders, banning tourism, shutting down the internet, imposing 1984 surveillance on the population.

    Sorry people your solutions amount to nothing more than a win for the terrorists.

    We’ve ended up in this situation with Daesh , AQ, the Taliban due to Western Political meddling & trying to impose liberal thinking on peoples not ready for it. We destabilized the entire region by taking out Saddam & Gaddafi .

    Closing our borders may do lots of things but it wont stop terrorism, it would deliver an extra 3 million recruits to Daesh though.

    • ian wragg
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 11:27 am | Permalink

      What worries me more is the deafening silence of PvL. and his counterparts on other blogs.
      maybe Brussels has shut down his department due to lack of funds.

      • Chris S
        Posted November 16, 2015 at 9:22 am | Permalink

        This forum is an excellent platform for expressing views which most of us share with our host.

        However, lively debate that properly explores political issues requires frequent contributions from members who hold contrary views. Sadly we have lost several important contributors who hold those contrary views. Perhaps we have been too strident in our responses to Peter and those few others ?

        As a result, we believe passionately that we are right, particularly over Brexit, but we risk suffering from the same syndrome as the Corbynisters.

        Their only discussion on social media was between members who share the same views. As a result they elected the leader with whom they felt most comfortable while completely forgetting the inconvenient truth that the vast majority of the voting public thinks very differently.

        Come back Peter et al. All is forgiven !

        • petermartin2001
          Posted November 18, 2015 at 3:19 am | Permalink

          ChrisS,

          I’m afraid I can’t give you much of a run for your money on the question of Brexit because I agree that we should ‘Brexit’ !

          But I suspect our reasons are quite different. I’m against the EU not because I have any problem with the metric system, or object to the input of Brussels based bureaucrats into the way we make our sausages but because I do have a problem with the kind of balance-the-books at all costs type of Economics which is imposed on the peripheral countries of the eurozone by the German dominated powers-that-be.

          It’s crazy for Germans to think they can run huge export surpluses which suck euros from the economies of their EZ trading partners, so leaving them short and having to borrow to keep their economies functioning. They then have the gall to lecture them on their profligacy and on the perils of deficit spending!

          Somewhat ironically, those most hostile to the EU on the political right in the UK subscribe to the exact same type of economic theories. They too think that the Govt can reduce its internal deficit if enough cutbacks are made without having to give a thought to the net loss of ££ to the economy as our economy is deprived of currency by the mercantilist actions of the big exporters in the EU. ie Holland and Germany. Its only our independent currency that saves us. Nothing else.

          But if we impose the same rules on ourself, as are imposed on others in the EZ we too will end up screwed by the euro, even if we aren’t a part of it.

          If you feel I’m wrong be as “strident” as you like! If you can show that I’ll change my opinion. I promise!

          reply I too am a critic of German surpluses and their failure to accept obligations to deficit areas within their currency zone

    • Bob
      Posted November 15, 2015 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

      @libertarian

      It’s not immigration per say, it’s the sudden uncontrolled influx of people from incompatible ideologies with no attempt at integration. Nothing to do with skin colour or language.

      Can’t remember having any problems from Chinese immigrants, Indian Hindus or Sikhs, Italians, Greeks or the French, apart from the “French Man” with two guns and a hand grenade that caused the evacuation of Gatwich North Terminal yesterday (but as stated by Mark above, the truth about that incident will be revealed when his name or photo is published; I’m betting he’s not a Jean Pierre with a beret).

    • Gary
      Posted November 16, 2015 at 4:46 am | Permalink

      bravo !

      this is to do with oil, pipelines, cheap labour, demographics of dying European welfare states, the military industrial complex, NATO hegemony, and eventual ownership of Russia.

      and the fools think it’s about Muslims.

      You’ll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the people, to paraphrase Henry Ford.

  41. petermartin2001
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    I must say I just felt numb reading the events of the past 24 hours in Paris. Clearly something needs to be done and I’m sure the French people will feel the same way but the chances of their doing the wrong thing are high.

    I’d say the wrong thing would be to vote in parties of the far right like the FN who offer simple solutions to complex problems which can never work. The chances of that are high. The right thing would be to emphasise their revolutionary slogan of Liberté, égalité, fraternité . The right thing would be to put whatever it took into the intelligence effort to defeat these killers. France does have the resources to tackle this problem.

    We also shouldn’t jump to conclusions about open borders etc. We don’t know where these young men were from and/or where they were trained yet. Let’s just get the whole story first.

  42. James Sutherland
    Posted November 14, 2015 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    “When an attack gets through it provides additional incentive to improve and augment the Intelligence effort. Such events lead governments to take action after the event which may be counter productive. Disrupting the lives of many and changing the normal pattern after all the attackers are dead or arrested gives the terrorists an extra win.”

    Agreed. My fear right now is that this attack will give momentum to the “Snoopers’ Charter” Bill, with its demands for ISPs to create “Internet Connection Records”, describing the nature of all our usage – an enormously expensive undertaking. (From discussions with contacts in the industry, there was already a fear that this name was chosen to give the false impression these are records that might already exist, and would just need to be stored longer; in reality, it’s more akin to demanding that the Post Office start recording the origin and nature of all the mail each person receives, except on a vastly greater scale: simply loading this single page, for example, entails 147 separate connections, to around 10 different destinations!)

    One of my school friends happens to be in Paris at the moment – fortunately, unharmed. I’ve heard promising talk from the French government already about treating this as an act of war by ISIS – exactly what it is. So, we send our armed forces over there to strike back at them, just as we did with WWII and the rest – but we do not start spying on everybody nationwide, on the off-chance it might later turn out to be useful: we need to get back to that good old principle that you start investigating a person when you have justified suspicions. Yes, as Snowden documented, it’s technically easy now to record a million phone calls or email conversations at once – that doesn’t make it right. (Or useful: having recorded those million calls, you then need to figure out what they are, or it’s a complete waste of time!)

    I see Bazman above proposes shutting down the Internet, then granting limited access to basic facilities to a subset of people. I very much hope that’s intended as a joke! (The post also spoke admiringly of the Chinese Internet censorship system; TalkTalk spent a reported GBP 25m importing such a system – and haven’t even been able to prevent access to their own internal customer data, let alone filter the public Internet sensibly!)

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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