Leave must mean leave

Again yesterday when debating on TV BSE just kept the lies flowing that when we leave we will continue to pay money to the EU and accept free movement.

Two of the main reasons to leave are to get our money back and to control our own borders. Mexico with a free trade agreement, Canada and 160 other countries around the world trade with the EU but do not pay contributions to the EU budget, and do not accept freedom of movement. So will BSE stop the lies that we would need to in order to trade?

We do not want some half way house agreement leaving us partially in. We wish to restore our own democracy. Our trade with the EU is not at risk and we do not have to opt in to some associate membership in order to buy and sell cars or wine or legal services.

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142 Comments

  1. Kenneth
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    The trouble is that the BSE people may have a point. There is every chance that, once we vote to leave, our civil service will form an alliance with the eu and put one road block after another in the way and encourage long drawn out negotiations.

    These negotiations could drag on and be extended and perhaps never reach an agreement while we continue to pay.

    Once again the eu, with the help of our own civil servants, may ignore the will of the people.

    • oldtimer
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:25 am | Permalink

      We can be confident that they will be ready, willing and able to install a system of Deutschgeld, a modernised version of the historic Danegeld, but this time the (migrations? ed) will continue anyway.

    • Bob
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:32 am | Permalink

      Repeal the 1972 European Communities Act and then we can ignore or abide by EU regulations as we see fit.

      • Old salt
        Posted February 1, 2016 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

        A B I L L
        To repeal the European Communities Act 1972 and related legislation; and for
        connected purposes.
        Presented by Mr Douglas Carswell,
        supported by
        Mr Philip Hollobone, Steve Baker,
        Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson,
        Philip Davies and Mark Reckless.
        Ordered, by The House of Commons,
        to be Printed, 20 June 2012

    • Lifelogic
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

      Indeed that is exactly what is likely to happen, assuming that OUT side win the vote as they surely should.

      Interesting to read in the Sunday Mail today about how the NHS is providing treatment for endless EU health tourists who just fly in any go straight to casualty.

      Cameron obviously thinks this is just fine, a perfectly sensible and sustainable way to use your taxes and NI contributions. Just more “overseas aid” I suppose.

    • Golffoxtrot
      Posted February 1, 2016 at 9:38 am | Permalink

      That’s a good point about the civil servants resisting the changes to get us out. I have heard many a local councillor complain that it is all too difficult, in some cases impossible, to get programs through that local council staff do not see the value off. They say the same goes for the Whitehall lot who I guess do get away with it since most ministers, with the exception of Gove and Duncan Smith, seem to be unable to run their departments well. Their departments run them.

  2. Anonymous
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure a vote for out will receive a reply such as this from Mr Cameron “OK. This gives us good grounds for renegotiation with the EU.”

    We are not leaving the EU, John.

    • Jerry
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:31 am | Permalink

      @Anonymous; Well if people like you keep telling anyone foolish enough to listen that the UK is “not leaving the EU” what ever the actual referenda vote then why would anyone bother to vote for a Brexit, all you are doing by repeating your assertion is creating a self-fulling prophecy!

      • Anonymous
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

        Jerry – Don’t blame me.

        The people to blame are those who got squeamish when Nigel Farage was being toxified instead of backing him up.

        We could have stormed the barricades by now.

        • Jerry
          Posted February 1, 2016 at 9:05 am | Permalink

          Anonymous; “Don’t blame me. “

          Of course I and many others will blame you, or has someone hacked your email account/computer and is this posting comments that are not come from you?!

          “The people to blame are those who got squeamish when Nigel Farage was being toxified instead of backing him up.”

          Dream on if you ever though that UKIP were going to be the next government or even a major player in one.

          “We could have stormed the barricades by now.”

          Fact, had it not been for UKIP this issue would have been done and dusted in 2010-11, Mr Farage even boasted about causing the 2010-15 Conservative-LibDem coalition…

          • Anonymous
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

            Had it not been for UKIP there wouldn’t even be a referendum.

            Reply Oh yes there would. It was the 81 Conservative MPs who voted for one who then persuaded the PM to do it.

          • Anonymous
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 11:05 am | Permalink

            Reply to reply: Is there not even a shred of acknowledgement that the formation of a rebel party of 4 million voters had some influence on that decision ?

          • Jerry
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

            @Anonymous; No as it would have happened anyway, due to the work of people like Mr Cash, our host and others, not because of the often rude slanging matches Mr Farage has in the EU parliament. In fact many suggest that had those eurosceptic not jumped the Tory ship in the early 1990s we would have got to where we are today a lot sooner and even had we not there would never have been Blair’s overly long pro EU government, with all the EU baggage his and Brown’s government brought.

            Also please do not keep guiding that lilly, 4m votes is nothing special, 8.37% of the electorate is a mere 3% more than the LDs got, start bragging once UKIP read double figures…

            UKIP has thus actually done a very good job since 1997 of keeping the UK in the EU.

            I want out but given a choice between (the personalities and policies of) UKIP and the EU I would have to hold my nose and vote to remain in, and I suspect I’m not alone, in fact in my small sampling (of eurosceptics) I have been told unprompted that UKIP do not have the policies and thus the answers!

    • bigneil
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

      A few years ago CMD said he would ignore an out vote ( try a search for it )- those are the words of a dictator – NOT a democratic politician.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

      Indeed but wining the first referendum is only the first step. But given this there is no reason anyone (even the IN side) to vote anything but to GET OUT in the fist one.

      Hopefully Cameron and Osborne will go after they lose the first referendum and we can find some real Tories to replace them. It seems unlikely though, as there are only about 100 such sound Tory MPs – at best.

    • Timaction
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

      A good series of articles and opinions this week Mr Redwood. It’s a shame you are in the wrong party and led by Europhile quislings. Every prediction by UKIP including his claimed major renegotiation has proven to be outright lies and fraud. It shows a lot for the calibre of the Conservative Party to believe with the help of the msm that they can fool the British public and bounce them into remaining in the corrupt and undemocratic EU.
      Your leadership has encouraged and supported all the lies from the remain grouping as was once again predicted. Security, jobs at risk, voice in the world, trade zzzzzzz. Can you please write to your arrogant leader to get on with his Chamberlain moment that we in UKIP have been predicting for years.
      It’s time we had politicians leading this once great Nation who actually worked for its people and its interests, not foreign institutions or the USA!
      I see your liberal Conservative leader has appointed Mr Lammy to look into minority over representation in our prison establishment. This has been done time and time again over the last 40 years. Look at culture, family support, poor public education and crime type. Just a few clues to save a vast sum of money and time. I’m surprised he didn’t appoint Ms Abbot or look at the historical findings that have been published many times before. He also seems to think we shouldn’t live in a meritocracy but discrimination once again on the majority.

      • Anonymous
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

        The Guardian states in a recent article that the problem in Cologne was thus:

        “The fallout from the incident in Cologne…”

        Note. The incident itself was not the problem. The fallout from it was the problem.

        Now I use this phrase carefully without use of prophanity. This bearing in mind that a Labour politician got away with stating the following in BBC’s Question Time. She said:

        “The same thing that happened in Cologne happens in Birmingham every Friday night.”

        If this is a truly adult and free forum then I will not be moderated for stating this:

        If unconsenting women in Birmingham are surrounded by tens of men and (sexually molested ed). What happened in Cologne is the same as what happens in Birmingham on a Friday night.

        If that cannot be published and if that causes discomfort then it proves to me how deep the lies and how new the image of what actually happened is.

        If those claims are true in Birmingham then where are the arrests ???

        If those claims are untrue in Birmingham then where is the backlash from MPs ?

        etc ed

        • Anonymous
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

          Well at least we know where we all stand.

          I invite readers to watch this morning’s The Big Question and the other words I used can be found in a third former’s biology book.

        • DaveM
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

          I was in Birmingham not long ago. I’m sure this is a reaction to that American politician who slated Brum not long ago – as far as I could tell it was no different to any other big city. And the people I know from Birmingham don’t have any recollection of women being molested.

          And even if it did happen, people in this country wouldn’t sit back and allow it like they have to in Sweden, Germany and Austria. The contract between the government and the public has been broken in those countries – if there’s any suggestion that could happen here there wouldn’t be any requirement for a Leave campaign.

          • Anonymous
            Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

            Dave – Jess Phillips MP was allowed to state that the incidents in Cologne were normal.

            That such things were ever thus. That all is normal within the EU.

            In order to inform people that things are most certainly not normal one is forced to issue a detailed description of the offences committed.

            That they are too distasteful to publish on this blog (using biologically accurate language) indicates that the conditions being imposed upon the European peoples is most definitely NOT normal. But they soon will be if Ms Phillips is allowed to tell bare faced lies about them.

            There is no excuse for such dishonesty. Not even race relations.

          • Jerry
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

            @DaveM; “people in this country wouldn’t sit back and allow it like they have to in Sweden, Germany and Austria. The contract between the government and the public has been broken in those countries”

            If you actually bothered to find out some facts you would understand that the people of Sweden, Germany and Austria have not “sat back”, far from it. Anyway, bar those wishing to sow the seeds of racial disquiet, nor does it mean that the answer to these problems and crimes is to be ever more anti migrants/refugees.

            ” if there’s any suggestion that could happen here there wouldn’t be any requirement for a Leave campaign.”

            If the UK were a little more like our European cousins indeed there wouldn’t be any requirement for a Leave campaign, at least not on anything bar economic grounds!

          • Anonymous
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 11:12 am | Permalink

            Reply to Jerry at 9.29

            “Bar those wishing to sow the seeds of racial disquiet”

            Ah. You must mean Frau Merkel.

            Opening up a continent to millions of new arrivals – from a different culture – and then blaming the indigenes for causing racial disquiet smacks of someone wishing to oppress free speech.

            Are we not allowed to say when there have been problems ?

            Do we have to accept outright lies about the situation ?

          • DaveM
            Posted February 1, 2016 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

            Jerry,

            What I said was that those people have had to sit back. Knowing everything as you do, I thought you’d realise what I was implying is that the citizens of those proud and ancient countries are forced to sit and take it because they are prosecuted if they stand up for themselves.

            The fact that hundreds of thousands of people have protested weekly for over a year now and been utterly ignored by their govt (and treated like criminals by the police) says all you need to know about the broken contract between the govt and the populace.

          • Jerry
            Posted February 2, 2016 at 7:27 am | Permalink

            @Anonymous; “Ah. You must mean [../ anti German rant/..]”

            No I do not. Stop trying to put your rather distasteful opinions into the mouths of others.

            “Opening up a continent to millions of new arrivals – from a different culture – and then blaming the indigenes for causing racial disquiet smacks of someone wishing to oppress free speech. “

            Perhaps all the “settlers” (and their descendants) in the USA should be returned home then, thus give the USA back to the North American Indians, perhaps all the ten shilling [1] economic migrants etc. (and their descendants) should leave Australia and allow the Aboriginals their country & culture back?.. Don’t you realise just how stupid your constant “I’m standing up for Great Britain” anti migration rants are when so much of the world has been changed for ever by outward migration from the UK…

            The only people who are trying to to oppress free speech are people like you @Anonymous, only your very narrow views on migrants should be allowed, anyone who doesn’t share your views is either not British or must be an EU 5th columnist.

            [1] or what ever the cost was

          • Jerry
            Posted February 3, 2016 at 10:56 am | Permalink

            @DaveM [re your follow-up comment]; Thanks for reinforcing my first thoughts with regards to your original comment, you say “The fact that hundreds of thousands of people have protested weekly for over a year now and been utterly ignored by their govt”, that’s the point, these protesters are actually in a minority in relation to their countries adult population.

        • Yosarion
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

          I watched that and compared it to the ridicule that they laid upon Donald Trumps comments a couple of months ago, struggle to see the difference like many would.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

      As I have already repeated ad nauseam, the referendum Act is silent on what would ensue from a vote to leave the EU. So you may be right to say that it would be taken as a trigger for further negotiation and another referendum.

      Obviously I hope you are not right with your last sentence.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

        Dear Denis–I think it is as certain as anything can be that there would be some kind of further negotiation–apart from all else there simply has to be. Whether another referendum is another story. One point one reads little about is that it is impossible as things stand for a fresh election to be called, which I suppose does indicate another referendum but who can be certain of anything with snake-oil Cameron in charge.

      • Anonymous
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

        Denis – I believe that America is behind the EU.

        • DaveM
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

          The US is behind anything that diminishes the strength of the UK, always has been. In the words of the Godfather -“Your enemies approach you with smiles and gifts”. Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe!!

  3. Horatio
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Leave really must must mean leave! JR thank you very much not only for this series but also for your time, effort and drive to free the English people from European tyranny.

    I really rather think that the majority of conservative MPs should ware their constituencies. Most conservative associations are very euro-sceptic. If we vote to remain led by mendacious Tory MPs they might well be looking at their jobs come the next election. If we remain in, I will either be campaigning for a Eurosceptic MP or voting UKIP who I expect to surge in the event of a remain vote. I am bitterly disappointed at Hammond and especially Gove, the Tory minister who I had held in the highest esteem and had previously held very solid euro-sceptic views. Osborne, BoJo etc should realise that a pro-EU stance will not be rewarded by the grassroots.

    Additionally, if we are forced to remain by the block voting of the Scots then I recommend a referendum on their expulsion from the union. I’ve given them far to much of my taxes as it is. It strikes me that Cameron has gone from the Bloomberg speech to utter, pathetic capitulation at the hands of his master Junker. Those who fought and died for the freedom of the English speaking people’s will be turning in their grave.

    As Dan Hannan points out; if the EU treats us thus now just imagine the disdain and all the extra monies it will drain from us after a remain vote.

    This could prove to be the BBCs most influential moment, the way they are manipulating the debate goes beyond institutional bias. If someone from the OUR camp had said something as outrageous as David Lammy did on the Daily Politics we’d still be hearing about it now.

    We must find a charismatic, famous and trusted speaker for the debate. Farage is full of fire but turns too many people off because of the way he has been painted by the MSM. The key issue anyway is not immigration this just comes from sovereignty and money.

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:28 am | Permalink

      The odds are stacked against our leaving despite the impeccably honest efforts of our host and others. His performance on Any Questions was superb. Much repeated lies and half truths by public figures and bodies eventually takes on the mantle of facts. I have written for some time the genuine Conservative Eurosceptic MPs need to take the gloves off with Cameron, who very possibly could be responsible for the disintergration of the Party given his devious approach and the unbelievable succumbing by so many MPs. The fallout from an unfair referendum, the seeds of which are highly visible, will lose the Party many members and voters, who are probably irreplaceable.

    • Maureen Turner
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

      To: Horatio.

      “We must find a charismatic, famous and trusted speaker for the debate”. This is important. Very important. The individual selected doesn’t have to be the speaker himself if he should choose not to do so but someone to act as Chairman and pull the various groups together. Personally, I would like to see Lord Tebbit in this role but sadly he has commitments as a carer to Lady Tebbit.

      This mornings Murnaghan programme gave an inkling of what’s in store if the Leave campaign is seen to be speaking as various groups instead of having a united voice; hinting it was all over the place. It’s not of course but that’s the way both the BBC and Sky will play it.

      Journalist, Peter Oborne, advised recently in the Daily Mail the PM has a team of six advisors including a pollster working in Downing Street to return a Remain vote.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

        Dear Maureen–I too wish there were some way Lord Tebbit could be persuaded to act possibly if necessary in some kind of more Chairmanlike rather than CEO role perhaps with nobody designated as a CEO type. Dear Lord Tebbit: Your country needs you!

    • MikeP
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

      How about Lord Digby Jones ? Eurosceptic, media savvy, already campaigning to leave (today’s Sunday Politics), business credentials, politically more astute than most politicians !

  4. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    When you mean no free movement”, do you mean that EU citizens will have to get their passports checked via the same queue as those visitors from the rest of the world? I cannot see that happening. I also cannot see an end to Indian IT workers being imported to undercut their British counterparts. I also cannot see the contract cleaners and farmers being denied their flow of unskilled cheap labour either. We may be then outside the EU but the ruinous neo lib economic agenda will continue regardless.

    • agricola
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

      None of the categories would be allowed in as of right. If there is a requirement for a particular labour group that cannot be filled from the indigenous UK population then they could be invited in on a work visa that is time limited. Part of the process of issuing visas would be the provision of a checkable job to go to.

      If you are thinking of full career jobs like nursing then they could be invited on a five year visa with an option of permanence thereafter.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

      Dear Rita–We shall just have to hope that you’re wrong then. Do Australians have a seaprate clue in to NZ? No idea but I bet not. Or Canadians in to US or indeed anywhere in to anywhere else close. This whole EU thing has been a disaster.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

        Separate queue of course. Apologies.

    • Anonymous
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

      Dame Rita – I cannot see the student overstayers, the army of unregistered workers, the money laundering workers (car washes/empty restaurants etc) being rounded up and removed from Britain.

      Such things are not British and if they did happen they would be met with the usual lefties chaining or glueing themselves to the evictees.

      No. There will have to be an amnesty at some point. An acknowledgement that such people have been here a long time, have helped to build Britain and are entitled to be treated as human beings, British subjects and share in the wealth of this nation.

      Perhaps a charismatic figurehead, sidled by celebrity lawyers and celebrities will come to the fore – a million man march of the disposessed.

      This will result in an instantaneous swelling of the official population figures and necessitate a redistributive policy of the likes we have never seen before, to close the inequality gap which is – thus far unaknowledged – far wider than anything official.

      There are families living three to a room. Men living fifteen to a house. Indentured slaves – bound by debt to the people who smuggled them here.

      The future is – by demographic – socialism.

      There is no place for conservatism where little is conserved.

      The issues you are worried about are small compared to the one already here and now.

      • Anonymous
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

        Of inequality: Mr Cameron is concerned about young black men being poorly represented in university – yet no other minority group has this problem (in fact Asians do very well in this respect.)

        There has to be more to it than simple racial discrimination.

        Have his researchers looked into how many of these men are from fatherless backgrounds ? Lately we have seen similar problems with white working class youth.

        The universities are right to argue that they are not the cause of the problem and that forcing them to accept low grade students will damage the nation. Perhaps the Camerons might consider sending their boy to an ordinary school to see where it’s going wrong for themselves.

  5. agricola
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Yes I totally agree, leave must mean leave. I am not sure who TV BSE are, but suggest they might be the Black School of Economics.

    Should we vote to leave then no sane observer would employ CMD to control or negotiate the break. The Civil Service cannot be trusted either. It must be left to those in the out campaign who fully understand the thinking and working within the EU. CMD has made such a hash of re-negotiation as to prove himself unfit for purpose. A more useless and duplicitous person it would be hard to find.

    The Conservative Party within the Commons through their 1922 Committee and the party at large in the country should quickly find a more able candidate, should he not have the wisdom to resign. CMD like Neville Chamberlain should realise when the game is up or be told.

    • acorn
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

      For an Oxford man, JR’s prose tends to be short of commas and semicolons. Like you, TV [,] BSE, had me thinking what this had to do with Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE). The first use of an acronym has to be defined in a document, if it is not in frequent use.

      Anyway, Mexico; Canada etc have to pay a fee to sell cars into the EU, 10% EU import tariff / custom duties. http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

      Reply Yes, but, the Germans have made quite clear, we would not have to pay such a tariff, as they would not want such a tariff on them. (enough commas ed)

  6. alan jutson
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    The problem you/we have John, is that the BSE lot actually think it is right and proper that to trade with the EU you need to pay in money.

    They cannot even seem to begin to think any other way, they have become so indoctrinated over the years, that the only answer is EU everything, they have lost sense with the reality of what goes on in the wider World.

    Hence my big worry that if we do vote to leave, these clowns will be very poor at any future negotiations on co-operation, because they are still EU think people.

    If Cameron and Osbourne campaign for us staying in, and we vote out, they themselves should be turfed out, and have absolutely nothing to do with any co-operation deals that have to be negotiated/agreed.

    OUT is OUT pure and simple, we need people who have a hard nosed commercial background involved in any negotiation/agreements with the EU.

  7. John Bracewell
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Well said. It has annoyed me on countless occasions that the Stay In side and media assume we want a Norway, part in, part out situation. We want to have our own democracy where we do not have the ignominious sight of our PM going round the EU countries with a begging bowl and only collecting peanuts at best.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

      Peanuts for daft monkeys!

  8. Lifelogic
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    The lies and scare story tactics from the IN side have hardly started yet. Of course they will not stop lying. They started lying from when we went in, throughout (the no loss of sovereignty free trade only) “Common Market” referendum all the way through to now. They will continue to lie.

    Furthermore when & if we vote to leave then a new deal and a “get it right this time referendum” will surely follow.

    So no one in favour or IN or OUT should vote IN at the first one. Unless they are in favour of being IN on the initially appalling terms offered after Cameron joke renegotiation.

  9. Alan
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Mr Redwood has stated his view, but that does not seem to be the view of all who wish to leave the EU. There is a whole range of alternatives being put forward and we do not know which one will actually be adopted if we do vote to leave. Our politicians will have to work that out after we have voted to leave. We don’t know how any subsequent negotiations with the EU will go.

    At least if we vote to remain we know what we are getting. And it’s not that bad, you know.

    • JoeSoap
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:30 am | Permalink

      You’re not a resident of Calais, I presume?

    • alan jutson
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      Alan

      “Its not that bad you know”

      Have you read anything of the Five Presidents report ?

      If not I suggest you do, as it explains exactly where the EU want to go by 2025.

      Not that bad, you really are having a laugh at your own expense.
      But please not at mine and many others who feel we have been taken for an expansive and expensive ride for far too long.

    • agricola
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

      I would suggest that you have no idea of what you are getting. I equate it with being in a totally failed marriage and being cuckolded every day of the week. Do you think the Greeks or Spanish would have voted for the appalling levels of unemployment they suffer or the Cypriots who had the contents of their bank accounts stolen. I suppose it is not so bad if you want your cities (changed by migration ed). If you live in an isolated Cotswold village and do not travel that much then you never see the downside of belonging to the EU.

      • agricola
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

        Ed. you know as well as I do, because it has been very well reported all over Europe, that it is not just a simple matter of migrants. It demeans the memory of that young girl in Gotenburg who was murdered as a result of being a volunteer worker with migrants. Not to mention the happenings in Cologne and other German cities and the subsequent civil disturbances in Sweden, Germany and now Dover. This is not something you can gloss over by pretending it has not happened.

    • Graham Wood
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

      Alan. There are two routes for Brexit following a “leave” vote in the referendum.
      First to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which initiates the process. If no agreement is reached on terms then the applicant country (UK) automatically leaves the EU.
      We are then free of course to make free trade deals with any country we like, and we should not forget that due to the massive trade imbalance we have with the EU, then that body will be very keen for the UK/EU to enter into a FT deal immediately on Brexit.
      This route has been well summarised by Dr. R. North of EU Referendum (blog):

      It proposes EFTA EEA as an interim arrangement in order to safely exit the EU within the 2 year timeframe imposed by Article 50 of the Treaty of the European Union. Having secured a “soft” exit, a new Single Market settlement would be sought, potentially in alliance with the current EFTA states (EFTA + UK would be worlds 4th largest trade group):
      •A true European Single Market of equals with common decision-making for all members
      •Integrated into the international and global rule making bodies (recognising the truth that the EU has become a law-taker).
      A key point of this plan is that the existing Free Movement of People rules are retained in the short-term (in interim EFTA EEA phase) in order to secure the “soft” exit from the EU.
      The second route is the “nuclear option” which can be taken any time by Parliament which is to amend and then repeal the 1972 European Communities Act which is the ‘gateway’ for all EU driven legislation.

      • Alan
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

        Thanks for taking the time to reply at length.

        I understand that only about 10% of the EU’s trade is with the UK, whereas about 40% of ours is with the EU. We would need a deal far more than the EU would. Of course we can hope that the larger and more influential countries in the EU would be more anxious than the majority and would persuade the others. But we can’t be sure if they will succeed, or indeed how hard they will try. It’s not a fait accompli. We don’t know what will happen. Negotiations have not even started.

        Presumably Dr North is an expert on these topics, and I am not, but I think EFTA countries pay fees to the EU to trade with them. There would be little point in us leaving the EU to do that: we are better off being inside and able to vote. This is just one of the many possible alternatives if we vote to leave. This and the other possibilities you raise reinforce my point that we don’t know what we are heading for if we vote to leave.

        • alan jutson
          Posted February 1, 2016 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

          Alan

          You have fallen for the Eu released statistics I am afraid.

          The fact is we import from the EU £70 Billion more than we export to them.
          Thus we are in a trade DEFICIT with the EU.

          They have about 8 times the number of people that we do hence the reason why their GDP is lower than us as a percentage.

    • getahead
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

      Except Alan, the EU is a changing contrivance. If we vote to remain, we do not know what we will be getting in the future.
      And it really is that bad, you know

      • Alan
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

        I think we do know what we will get if we stay in, because it will be the same as now.

        • matthu
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

          Are you assuming that the EU has no plans to change over the next few years, then?

          No designs on bringing Turkey and Serbia and millions of others into the EU further diluting our influence?

          No designs on creating an EU army? (Commanded by whom? And paid for by whom?)

          No designs on raising vast amounts of additional EU taxes across the EU by fiddling with VAT or fuel taxes or other?

          No designs on forcing the UK to accept vastly more migrants?

        • Monty
          Posted February 2, 2016 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

          “I think we do know what we will get if we stay in, because it will be the same as now.”

          That’s precisely what we won’t get, and can never have. Even the most fanatical EU-crats have never promised us that. They always have more initiatives on the slate, towards that ever-closer union, and the pressure would only ever intensify on us to give up Sterling, and fall into line.

    • Pud
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      What we get if we stay in depends on who is talking. The EU leaders in mainland Europe seem pretty convinced the EU is destined for ever closer union but ours say not.

      • Alan
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

        Don’t forget that treaty change requires unanimous agreement, so we can’t have a union of states without our consent. I don’t think it very likely in the short term anyway.

        • matthu
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

          But we don’t need to be consulted do we? We weren’t in the case of all the other treaties.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

      Oh, please do say what you think we will be getting if we vote to stay in.

      Were you around to make that claim in 1975, how has that worked out?

      • Alan
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

        I was around in 1975, and I do remember what it was like – a failing economy, miners’ strikes causing power cuts, massive inflation, and a Labour government that knew things were going wrong but lacked the power to do much about it.

        It’s turned out quite well, more or less what I expected. I’m only sorry we don’t play a fuller part. We are much richer, we can travel freely in much of the EU (once we get past the UK’s irksome border controls), we can use the same currency in every country, we can even make cheap phone calls from within the rest of the EU. I hope for a continuation of progress if we stay in, but of course I don’t have any way of knowing what the future holds – neither does anyone else, no matter how persuasively they tell you what will happen if we vote to leave.

        • DaveM
          Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

          Alan: “we can use the same currency in every country, we can even make cheap phone calls from within the rest of the EU.”

          Woo hoo – that’s changed my mind!!!

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted February 1, 2016 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

          So back in 1975 you more or less expected that the nine EEC countries would become 28 EU countries, and without a single referendum to ask whether we were happy with those changes to the contract we had approved in the 1975 referendum, and you more or less expected that the national vetoes we were officially promised would always be there to defend the power of our Parliament would almost all be abolished, and you more or less expected that the single currency which we were told would not happen would in fact happen, and you more or less expected that as the power of our national Parliament was gradually eroded the power of the European Parliament would be increased, and you more or less expected that the EU would try to get itself a federal constitution superior to our national constitution, and you more or less expected that it would come to control or influence more and more aspects of our lives, and you more or less expected that it would start to talk about having its own army … so did you try to warn the rest of us?

    • Ken Adams
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

      Sorry there is no status quo As Mr Redwood say remain means a wild ride to the United States of Europe.

      There is a procedure for leaving called Article 50.

    • forthurst
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

      “There is a whole range of alternatives being put forward…”

      Apart from flat out lying, the BSE bunch like to muddy the waters; leave means leave not, “would you like to become an associate member of the EU?” or “would you like to pay the EU for the privilege of having an almighty trade deficit?” or “would you like to have continuing free movement so that we would also continue to have unsustainable pressures put on our infrastructure or to facilitate entry for any of the millions of uncalibrated vibrants Mad Merkel has enticed into the EU?”

      “At least if we vote to remain we know what we are getting.”

      I rather doubt that a typical ‘Remain’ voter will actually have a clue of what CMD and his corporatists backers want to inflict on us: total dismemberment of our country, England, territorial accretion to incorporate large countries in the Balkans, (words left out ed – presumably you are thinking of Turkey )Turkey and North Africa, advancing to the Urals incorporating Ukraine, surely one of the EU’s most celebrated success stories, etc; the EU army will replace our armed forces so Brussels could send its troops to what was England to put down rebellions against its rule by Brexiters.

      • forthurst
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

        JR: “presumably you are thinking of Turkey”

        No. This quotation from Peter Sutherland and Cecilia Malstrom:

        ” Last year, during the Arab revolutions, the EU missed a historic opportunity to begin weaving together the two sides of the Mediterranean. It failed to open its doors to young students, entrepreneurs, and other North Africans. Today, the EU is making a more serious effort to engage its southern neighborhood.”

        Obviously Peter Sutherland has a more nuanced view of entrepreneurialism than the young ladies of Cologne.

  10. Ian wragg
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Today Cameron is telling us how racist we are
    This despite half the worlds population trying to breach our borders.
    Now we see Dave has reneged on paying child benefit overseas. Today he will discuss an emergency brake on immigration if all 27 agree and subject to challenge by the ECJ.
    The man is proving to be a major embarrassment to Britain and seeing how Goldman Sachs are major funders of the remain brigade we should all be worried.

    • bigneil
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

      I’d like Cameron to tell us what Turkey has done with the money given to stop the human (movement ed) – apparently nothing, after the news announced that 55,500 had crossed from Turkey to Greece – in January alone. And the bad weather was supposed to slow the (numbers ed)? No mention of those from Libya sailing into the Med – -have they all stopped? – doubtful. Finland deporting 20,000 – Sweden 80,000 – Norway 5,500 – -and CMD has the doors wide open for yet millions more to arrive. etc ed

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

      How does the Benefits Agency know that these children actually exist? What checks do they make when the parents claim they are back home living with granny? Do they ask for a translation of birth certificate certified by a notary? If so who pays for it?

    • Cheshire Girl
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

      When I lived in the USA, thirty years ago, there was something called ‘affirmative action’. It looks as if it is on its way here – if it has not already got here. People should get where they are entirely on merit. I dont approve of Universities and Companies being ‘helped’ to be more diverse.

  11. ian
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    No change there then, all politician and media lie to the public for votes.
    ,

  12. Maureen Turner
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    When will our PM realise the voter has little interest in tax credits for the newly arrived so why keep making the case for this issue?

    We may not have heard much about possible assoc. membership recently but unless this contains something substantial it’s merely playing with words.

    Mr. Cameron’s renegotiation stance from the beginning was weak – “I wan’t to see the UK continue to be a member of the EU.” No, no, no. Where were the words – The concessions I set out are the minimum my government and the electorate will accept?

    This charade has run its course. Does the PM not realise should he succeed in securing a Remain vote on nothing more than “spin” it won’t be long before we realise the deception and then governing the UK will be anything but a stroll in the park.

    • JoeSoap
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:29 am | Permalink

      Tax credits totally irrelevant when our minimum wage will be £9 an hour in a couple of years. A red herring.

    • agricola
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

      Look within the big business lobby in favour of remaining in the EU. That is where CMD will run to get his reward for trying or succeeding. No other reason makes logical sense in explaining his love affair with the EU.

      • stred
        Posted February 1, 2016 at 6:32 am | Permalink

        Big business wants free access to a US of Europe, cheap imported labour and big housebuilders like £300k net migration to keep property prices and their land bank values up. Big regulation suits big boys, as it costs small competitors too much to enter the market.

        Banks like (false name removed ed) are up to their necks in carbon trading, subsidy milking and green crap. The last thing they want is England to regain democracy. They prefer the stooges in no 10 and 11. No wonder they are (supporting the establishment? ed).

        • stred
          Posted February 1, 2016 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

          Re false name of bank. You can take the substituted ‘u’ out if you like and put the full name in.

  13. nigel
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Absolutely right, but, with respect, you are preaching largely to the converted. The “out” campaign still needs a united platform to get its message across to the average voter.

    • Ken Adams
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

      So does the remain campaign need a unified platform most of the prospective candidates for designation seem to be demanding a renegotiation of some sort. But they don’t state exactly what they think would be acceptable.

  14. Antisthenes
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Indeed it does make sense to leave the EU totally and completely and sign up to treaties and join bodies that we find acceptable. In exactly the same way that we do or used to do in the rest of the world like the UN, NATO, WTO. Staying in as an associate member David Cameron’s British option implies that eventually we are going to accept political and economic union. So all we gain is some respite from that.

    If all we want is trade and selective cooperation and not ever to be part of a superstate then we have to cut our ties completely. In fact Norway and Switzerland must be very naive to accept the conditions imposed upon them by the EU. They have been sold a lie as the current arrangement deprives them of some of their independence of action. They could just as easily arrange their interaction with the EU as independent states but on terms agreed by equals and which are revisable. Just because a state is in Europe does not make it exempt from being treated the same way as other countries in the world who trade and cooperate independently with the EU. It is high handed of the EU to think otherwise that exposes it’s arrogance and bullying tendencies.

    • agricola
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

      This is why leave must mean leave, and Cameron should not be allowed near any talks thereafter. Were he allowed any say he would have us as an associate with obligations to the EU and a continuing on cost. He is no fit person to negotiate anything.

    • old soap
      Posted February 2, 2016 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

      Is it the peoples of Norway and Switzerland or their unrepresentative? Governments, as here, being referred to as naive.

  15. MikeP
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Indeed! Far from having to pay to trade with this dysfunctional bloc they should be paying us to continue to enjoy such a huge trade imbalance with the UK.

  16. hefner
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    I just hope that once we are out of the EU the MPs who presently jump as kids on their chairs saying “democracy, democracy, democracy” will have the decency of voting for a more proportional representation in both Houses of Parliament.

  17. Bob
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    I read a prediction on Twitter that David Cameron will get everything he’s asked for from the EU (nothing). Sounds about right to me.

  18. Gina Dean
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    It depends on who is negotiating our way out. It will have to be business ceos, not too many MPs or civil servants. Could you clarify the differences between article 50 or repealing the treaty of Rome. Which would be the best way to leave.

    • graham1946
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

      Don’t like the idea of business CEO’s either. How do you choose? Presumably from major companies who mostly want the status quo because it discriminates in their favour over smaller competition. We need people from the ‘OUT’ camp and the ‘In’ crowd must be kept out of it as far as possible just as they try to arrange everything in their favour at present.

      On the World Service last night a bunch of big business CEO’s were giving out all sorts of lies and one (I think it was abetting firm who you would expect to be able to do simple arithmetic) said 250,000 firms deal directly with the EU and when the anti EU guy said this was only five percent of British companies, this gambling man couldn’t work out that 250,000 as a ratio to 5 million who don’t trade with the EU was 5 percent. We need to keep banging on about how much trade the with EU is actually done as against our total trade – its currently about 8 percent total, so all this nonsense about 50 percent of business being at risk, even if it were at risk at all is pure lies but is enough to frighten the ordinary Joe.

  19. DaveM
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    That’s what they’ll do John, they’ll lie and cheat and use any dirty trick they can to win. However, people can see through it – they admire honesty and can instinctively tell when people are lying. That’s probably why Farage is so popular; the content of what he says is irrelevant, but the fact that he answers questions concisely, directly, and without the usual preamble we’re used to hearing from politicians makes people believe him.

    He is divisive, however, whereas you are far more persuasive, and the arguments you present, backed up by facts, are exactly what the Leave campaign need to win. So keep up the good work!

    • JoeSoap
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:27 am | Permalink

      Also get together with Luke Johnson- a very measured interview on Marr, and an excellent answer to the old red herring question of why the Leave side organisations are split.

    • Chris
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

      Margaret Thatcher was a great leader, but she too was called divisive. It is in the interests of the liberal left to perpetuat this label of divisive

  20. Iain Moore
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    I saw the interview, it became clear the BSE cannot be embarrassed into telling the truth, for no matter how many times you corrected her, she kept on repeating the same lie. The referendum isn’t going to advance the knowledge of the electorate much if we can’t even get them to admit basic truths like this.

    I also noted another line in her argument, that of us not being able to get a reasonable settlement from the EU because they would be vindictive about us leaving their ‘club’ and scared that others might follow our lead. That isn’t a club, that is really nasty club, in fact more like some religious cult , where apostates are to be driven out, while those remaining controlled and corralled. If this club is so nasty and vindictive then surely that is another very good reason for leaving?

    • Know-Dice
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

      Sorry to be ignorant – who is BSE?

      Yes – who would stay in a club that threatens to bully its members?

      • M Davis
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

        Better Stay in Europe?

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

        Dear Know-Dice–Shows how much I know–I assumed it is What, not Who, is BSE. Why won’t someone tell us?

  21. Lifelogic
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    I see Cameron is off on one of his lets incubate some racial tensions (& distractions from his EU joke renegotiations). This with his silly statement that “A young back man is more likely to be in prison than at a top university”. Has he adjusted for their social background and compared with a similar white group? Has he looked at how few apply? What does he mean by the vague phrase “a top university” anyway.

    In my experience the top universities are rather desperate to find suitable BME candidates to admit and are rather biased in favour of them, but they get so few suitable applicants. It is appalling for him to (in effect) accused these university admissions staff of racism without any real evidence.

    Anyway do we really want more PPE graduates, historian, english, sociology graduates and endless lawyers? Might we not be better of as a nation having rather more builders, car mechanics, electricians, plumbers, practical engineers and the likes?

    • JoeSoap
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:25 am | Permalink

      Indeed.
      The real answer is to open Grammar Schools to foster bright kids at an early age, whether they are black, white or a shade of orange. It is totally irrelevant. A sop to the left and a distraction. Let’s get rid of this government!

    • Yosarion
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

      Watching the BBC this Morning its been An Hour of Marr, an Hour Of Campbell, followed by an hour of Neil, never mind the Ethnics its time the English got a job on the political Beeb

    • Know-Dice
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

      Absolutely, it’s just “flannel” from CMD

      Surely UCAS already have this information?

      I would suggest that if there is a problem. that it’s well before university selection.

      Why would/should a university take a student that doesn’t meet their academic criteria?

      A few graduation videos from a “top” London university will show the diversity of their students:

      http://wwwf.imperial.ac.uk/blog/graduation/2015/05/11/postgraduate-graduation-ceremonies-2015/

    • stred
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

      Do we really want more lawyers? Following the non-bonfire of reguations, our landlords association has just sent everyone two letters. The first is appealing foe donations to defend a case in the Supreme Court. Story so far: A tenant in a leashold flat trips on a small change of level y the bins. Ambulance chasers win in County Court against the landlord owner of the leasehold flat, who has no way of maintaining the common parts. Landlord wins an appeal to the High Court. All costs are paid by him so far. No win no fee lawyers take the case to the Court of Appeal, who rule in favour of the tenant. National landlords associations are now trying to find the money to help take the case to the Supreme Court, otherwise thousands of landlords will be liable for the common parts of leasehold property owned and managed by others.

      Second letter. Two pages on procedure to check status of migrant tenants on behalf of the Home Office. This involves checking that people have a document on list A or B, or has an outstanding immigration application or an appeal with the Home Office. Landlords should follow up checks during the tenancy and ensure that anyone living in the dwelling ,even if not the tenant, has a right to live in the UK. Keep records for at least a year. Ensure that Data Protection Act is not breached. Footnote: List A and B are too complicated to see and should be viewed on the Home Office website. The web reference is 20 words and number long.

      I am coming to the conclusion that Napoleonic Law may be preferable to what government and lawyers have made ours.

      • stred
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

        Legal costs for the trip so far £18k. re Southern Landlords Association website.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

      I thought black people and people from all ethnic groups had the same education and opportunities to learn in the UK?????? Surely this is not the fault of universities but rather the fault of the individual?

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

      Dear Lifelogic–I certainly agree on Sociology–Clearly remember a friend telling me that it was a load of hogwash but if you learnt the various textbook mantras you passed so that was what he did before going on his way, having believed or learnt very little indeed.

    • stred
      Posted February 1, 2016 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      White boys without a skilled or professional family are even less likely to attend a ‘top’ or any other sort of university. If the police P you off when you are from a minority, you probably think it is discrimination. If they P you off when you are not, you just think they are a bunch (sorry) of useless badly managed tossers.

  22. Bert Young
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Cameron has achieved nothing in his , so called , negotiations and – as far as I am concerned , unlikely to do so . The EU know full well that he wants to stay in and , with that in its pocket , can play him along to their tune .

    The cry has been made very loudly this past week for politicians to make it clear where they stand . I hate this wait and see how the wind is blowing attitude from our representatives ; I want straightforward say it as you mean it MPs . Boris has lost my support for his neutral position and cosying up for a key Cabinet role ; in the past I admired his admissions of failure and the occasions when he stood alone . Today we badly need leadership that can co-ordinate the “leave” groups and come across as a very forthright individual . The leadership of the Conservative Party is definitely for such a person .

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

      Dear Bert–Yes I think the less of Boris but am cheered by even the remote possibility that Lord Tebbit might take the role on.
      Dear John–Please ask his Lordship from me, indeed from many of us I am sure. Use all underhand methods to achieve this goal–I am sure he would understand–It’s just too important, right up there with the Spanish Armada, Napoleon and Hitler. What we certainly wouldn’t get from him is dissembling. Everthing I hear from Cameron these days – everything – makes me want to puke. Sorry, but will never be able to understand how you are able to bear him as your leader. Instead of merely puking, I would slit my throat at the idea of him either leading the Out side (very very farfetched I hope) or still being in charge after a vote to Leave.

  23. JoeSoap
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Look you are a good person in a party of quislings!
    Come the vote to remain, or to leave with Cameron issuing lots of ifs, buts and maybes then you will be washed up as flotsam and jetsam along with them. UKIP, or another similar party formed by other real Conservatives + UKIP will leave you behind!

  24. Bryan Harris
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Yes – Of course we must get out on proper terms that do not tie us to EU dogma or to supporting their ever growing budget.

    Our leave negotiations can’t be allowed to last for years – and we must have a team that is committed to get us out with the best possible deals and for the least possible costs.

    Given the failure of the EU to rise to the occassion and meet us half way in negotiations, it is vital that Parliament prepares now, and starts getting that team together.

    • Bryan Harris
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

      John

      Why do my posts get rejected – I said:

      “Yes – Of course we must get out on proper terms that do not tie us to EU dogma or to supporting their ever growing budget.

      Our leave negotiations can’t be allowed to last for years – and we must have a team that is committed to get us out with the best possible deals and for the least possible costs.

      Given the failure of the EU to rise to the occassion and meet us half way in negotiations, it is vital that Parliament prepares now, and starts getting that team together.”

  25. Chris
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Very disappointed by Mark Pritchard’s apparent stance i.e. going to support staying in the EU. Seems all the so called eurosceptics are slipping away, which sadly is something that was predicted. Is it Party/their own jobs before country? It seems to the electorate that there are unprincipled MPs in the mix, who seem to be both unreliable and untrustworthy. What a message to send out to the electorate. No wonder we are so disillusioned by our political class.

  26. Bob
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Will David Lammy be investigating the dearth of Italian, American or French Generals in the British Army? or Chinese Admirals in the Navy?

  27. Chris
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    This latest report only confirms for the Leave side the need to get out of the EU:
    “A stunning new report on migrant employment has skewered the oft-cited economic argument for mass migration, revealing that most migrants are unemployed for years, and countries won’t see a benefit for at least a generation.

    The report for German paper Die Welt entitled “The Truth about the Refugee Job Wonder” asks if German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s pronouncement that migrants will be the “labour revitalisation” of Germany is actually true? It turns out Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis are more likely to be unemployed than the average German by a large margin…”
    From Breitbart London this morning.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

      Dear Chris–Not exactly surprising–How much German do these immigrants speak? I doubt they bring translators with them. Bad enough individually but we are talkng a herd instinct, scarcely believable though that is, especially as, once established (I doubt they crave staying in Germany), they will have an absolute right to move here. If the EU had never existed none of this would have happened–wouldn’t have even been considered.

  28. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    The people who are negative about leaving the EU more and more spout very unpatriotic sentiments. They are very negative about British people. Some of them in the Labour Party scratch their heads trying to think what British means and whether they are good enough.Whether they have put their trousers on in the morning.

    Imagine parents saying to their child:
    ” Don’t be silly about your legs. Just because you’ve walked on them for years. You need assistance. You need 27 people from Europe just so you can stand on your own two feet. You’ll fall down without them”

    I believe there are 196 countries in the world. 28 counties in the EU. Surely it cannot be true that 168 countries can’t put one foot in front of another and need to borrow President François Gérard Georges Nicolas Hollande’s scooter?

  29. bigneil
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Cameron and the EU will do anything to make us stay. The EU want our “donations” and CMD willingly gives it all away. He wants a place at their table. Wiping out a nation and a country is of NO consequence to this traitor ( and I’m being polite).

  30. The Prangwizard
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Cameron has told us that we, the people and the institutions of England, are racist. He says we should be ashamed. It is he who should be ashamed, and he should never be forgiven.

    The man is a disgrace, I have said before he betrays everyone in the end, now it is our nation, there is no limit. He is not fit to be PM.

    He will also lie about his EU talks. It vital we vote to leave. Then we should get rid of him.

    • Timaction
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

      No. We should lobby for reinstatement of the Treason laws or include Malfeasance in a public office to include MPs when they lie and deceive. Then we could take a close look at every Prime Minister since Margaret Thatcher. What was it that Heath said as he lied through his teeth about no loss of sovereignty when we joined the EEC! Traitor.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

        Dear Timeaction–I have long lobbied, including here many times, for a return to Attainder and its ancient penalty (which our host would probably not print–at least he wouldn’t last time–admittedly it’s a bit gruesome).

  31. MPC
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    It’s easy in this site to rail against those who wish to keep us in the EU, which might make us feel a bit better for a short time. But I’d appeal to everyone to do as much as we possibly can in our own areas/workplaces, by joining Vote Leave, to persuade waverers to vote leave. If we all do everything we can then we’ll have no regrets.

    I agree that in the event of a ‘leave’ vote the remainers will try and delay everything, but let’s get to that stage first! Besides, in the event of a vote to leave, we can hopefully look forward to an Interim PM / Deputy PM arrangement in the form of Mr Redwood and Owen Patterson who would surely make sure that ‘out means out’!

    • M Davis
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

      Vote Leave, as opposed to the grassroots Leave.eu? It seems that Vote Leave has its’ problems, with certain people at the top. So long as the majority of us, we the people vote to leave, that’s the main thing.

  32. ian
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    The only way of getting what you say you what is to make a speech in the HOC and kill off every party in the HOC and to come clean on what has been going on in the name of the people, that will take some guts.
    Once said the media will have to address it with some lies and truth statements and there will quit a lot of people willing to come forward to back your statement once said.
    That’s if you really want to save your country and people from life worst than death. Pussy footing around like D Trump will not get the job done, till I see a damming speech by you on behalf of the people and the country England I will not believe a word you say, I just think your one of them.

    Reply I have made various speeches explaining our loss of powers and speaking for England.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

      Dear John–How about printing your recent series and sticking them to telegraph poles all over the place? Even if you couldn’t afford too many (pages not poles), the popular press would feel obliged to publish them. Lots of people who read only that sort of thing have no clue who you are.

      Reply I am offering them to various organisations operating for leave to publish and reproduce as they see fit. I have shared them with various MPs who may well be helping organise their own local leave campaigns.

    • Ken Moore
      Posted February 1, 2016 at 1:17 am | Permalink

      Reply I have made various speeches explaining our loss of powers and speaking for England.

      Indeed you have made many fine speeches that unfortunately only attack the principle of the Eu..but so far no direct hit on the main architect of our despair and his followers.

      Why not challenge David Cameron in the HOC to explain why being IN the Eu is demonstrably better for Britain ?. This would have far more impact if you rejected the usual woolly replies that the Europhiles so often give.

      Nothing to lose here – more publicity for the IN side, wrecking ball David Cameron gets made to look like the chump he is….and you receive the gratitude of the many true but disaffected Conservatives in Wokingham.

      Big stakes require big actions and the strongest of leadership. Step forward John Redwood your time has come to save the nation……It’s time to reveal the emperor really has no clothes and for party loyalty to take a back seat.

  33. majorfrustration
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Who would have thought that the Google man on Marr this morning could set the scene
    for Bretex so clearly. ” If you want to change the corporation tax rules you will have to get the approval of the EU” I rest my case.

  34. ian
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Any one who speak out for wet & mad budgets and defends him has got to be one of them and you defend his budgets all the time.

  35. Denis Cooper
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Unfortunately these lies do have traction, as they say.

    On the Sky Press Review last night:

    Invited commentator No 1: “If we want to trade with them we have to obey their rules.”

    Invited commentator No 2: “And they are our most important export market.”

    Case closed, we have to stay in the EU.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

      Dear Denis–I no more like being repetitive than you but it is worth emphasizing that what you have said of course applies even more so to Canada. First, every country, certainly including Canada, has to obey the laws of any country it wishes to export to, certainly including the USA; and, Secondly, Canada sends three quarters of her exports to the USA whereas we send only half of ours to the EU. It is amazing how downtrodden we have become.

  36. The Active Citizen
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Well said JR.

    On a light note for a Sunday, I think we should declare last Friday “National Redwood Day” and celebrate 29th January each year. In the notable absence of the two Leave campaigns, you were everywhere – TV, radio, newspapers, online news sites, blogs… It was hard to avoid you!

    Cracking short speech on Any Questions on Friday, by the way. (That contribution is at 13:50 minutes in.)

    Regarding your latest article above, it’s important to keep stressing that Associate Membership or whatever they will call it is not acceptable. The EU has had decades to sort itself out and it keeps getting worse. It’s long past time to give up on any hope of staying in, in some ludicrous form, and being able to ‘influence reform’.

    Equally important to hit on the head the idea that post-exit we’ll continue paying the EU and allowing free movement. Of course it doesn’t help that some Brexit campaigners are promoting exit strategies which include this.

    Please keep stressing that Leave means Leave and that post-exit we’ll stop paying, we’ll control our own immigration policy, we’ll be a successful sovereign nation again, we’ll keep trading with Europe and will trade more with the rest of the World.

    Reply Thanks. I hope now all those who seem to think I just state these views on this website will appreciate the views out here are published, can be taken up by others, and are my views. When I have the chance I put them across on other media.

    • JoeSoap
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

      Reply to reply
      That’s on the plus side.
      On the minus side, by remaining in Cameron’s and Osborne’s party, you give them and their policies oxygen.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted January 31, 2016 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

      Dera John– Sorry, but you are back saying stuff that, whilst true, doesn’t mean much: of course you are published: of course your articles can (but are only rarely) taken up by others; and of course they are your views. And of course I realise that you are working your socks off but the subject is too important to let this weak response stand. People I speak to look at me blankly if I ask, Did you listen to John Redwood (or somesuch) and it is very hard work finding you in the papers. As much discussed I have trouble understanding why this should be. I have just a few minutes ago recommended the advantages of telegraph poles to you. Whilst you do seem to be speaking out more I think that in the interests of the country you could do more. The subject is massively important and I reckon you should consider resigning and standing as (say) an Anti EU Independent Tory.This whole ghastly boil needs lancing. My money says you would win easily in Wokingham and the sooner the better.

      Reply I will go onto the media when chance presents. I do not hide myself away! I have no intention whatsoever of putting Wokingham to the trouble and the cost of a by election. I made promises to represent my electors for 5 years and I wish to keep them.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted February 1, 2016 at 11:35 am | Permalink

        Reply to Reply–Problem is, this decision of yours could easily mean the end of the UK as we know it (or perhaps knew it). I doubt that Wokingham would have much trouble understanding and accepting your reasons and if they did they could vote you out.

    • Ken Moore
      Posted February 1, 2016 at 1:03 am | Permalink

      Credit to John Redwood he put his points across in a straightforward and engaging way with a bit of fire in his belly. Good work & thanks JR.
      Project fear needs to be stopped in it’s tracks.

  37. Denis Cooper
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    I note that “Leave must mean leave” will be irrelevant if we don’t get a vote to leave, and I perceive that many people are afraid that a vote to leave could/would have a wide range of terrible consequences, and so I conclude that the most important thing is to provide those fearful voters with as complete a reassurance as possible that this is not the case.

    Therefore on the age-old principle that even half a loaf is better than none at all I would be willing to support and promote an exit strategy which helped to win the referendum for us, rather than helped to lose it, even if the new arrangements would not immediately give us everything that we might want. Albeit I would do that with some reluctance, and on the basis that it would not necessarily be the end of the story.

    Staying in the EU would be a lot worse than leaving the EU but staying in the EEA, even though we would still have to accept about 9% of new EU laws according to Norwegian anti-EU campaigners:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11963908/Actually-Mr-Cameron-we-Norwegians-are-happy-rich-and-free-outside-the-EU.html

    and we would have to stand firm on not paying the EU for the privilege of continuing to run a massive trade deficit with its member states, and we would also have get something done about freedom of movement within the EEA.

    My argument on the democracy side is that it would be better to have no influence at all over the 9% of EU laws we would still have to accept than to have an 8% voting share in determining the 100% we have imposed on us now, which comprise about half of our new laws; notionally we would go from having 54% control over our new laws to having 95% control over our new laws, or to put it the other way round we would go from the process being 46% out of the control of our Parliament to only 5% out of its control.

    But of course we would still have some influence over EU laws, both those we still had to accept and at least some of those we no longer had to accept, at the stage before they even became EU laws and were being predetermined by world bodies; and as a last resort we could refuse to implement any which were particularly damaging.

    As far as freedom of movement is concerned, we are not the only one of the present EEA member states to have increasing concerns about this and there may well have to be changes, and moreover we would have a veto on the admission of new countries which would potentially produce large flows of economic migrants to the UK.

  38. ian
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    I have just seen your elite political leader has to go to dinner tonight in Brussels to ask if it ok to have the vote on Europe in June

  39. turbo terrier
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    It is enough to make you weep when you hear all the stay comments regarding the referendum arguement.

    This country has been well and truely shafted by being a member of the EU and all the lies and dreams of hose wanting to stay in this gang seriously need to stop and think what if?

    A lot of Scottish voters voted to leave the UK solely on the premise “if we don’t we will never know”

    There is a whole world out there and we are not allowed to play with the big boys .

    Feel the fear and just do it anyway.

    The immigration problem in the Med is not going to go away and this will ultimately bring about the fall of the EU. History shows what happened as countries became too big and eventually collapsed.

    The MoS highlights today the real cost to the NHS on foreign patients making false claims. £2billion is the figure quoted for 2013. Dread to think what it is for 2015

    A big thank you John for all entries and your presentation of the facts and the arguements.

  40. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Mr Donald Franciszek Tusk,President of the European Council whatever that is, is having din-dins with Rt Hon Mr David William Donald Cameron, Prime Minister tonight 31 January 2016 at 10 Downing Street.

    It is to be hoped Mr Tusk has been sent an email advising he should bring his own potted meat sandwiches and a thermos flask.

  41. Margaret
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    But John ;the counter arguments are getting in there too. Did you watch Andrew Marr? You were getting so positive.

  42. DaveM
    Posted January 31, 2016 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Whenever I read your blog, Mr Redwood (which is pretty much every day) I am struck by the pessimism of many of those who comment!!!

    A couple of points – firstly, your blogs this week have been exactly on the right note and exactly what the Leave campaign needs to push, ie, a positive view on the future outside the EU (which I’m fairly certain is going to collapse soon anyway).

    Secondly, as I discovered when studying for my MBA, people don’t like change, but with a positive plan they accept it and adapt to it incredibly quickly. It’s just a case of convincing them that their lives won’t be any worse for it.

    Thirdly, although it is easy to become depressed about conspiracy theories if you read too many of them, and as much as the PM may have gone back on his word many times, I am pretty confident that when the UK votes to leave the EU, the Cabinet will act in a pragmatic fashion. CMD is far too shrewd (as bad as he may be at negotiating, and as much as his begging-bowl tactics are pissing me off at the minute) to end up on the losing side. I’m fairly sure he’ll swap to Out as soon as he realises that’s the way the vote will go. Even if he doesn’t, there’s no way he’ll ignore an Out vote – he’ll either resign or commit to a future outside the confines of the EUSSR.

    I’m in Norway at the minute, and it is nothing like the UK! Neither is Switzerland, or any other country in the world. So please push yourself to the front, and tell the world what’s bad about the future of the EU, and what a fantastic place the UK will be when the chains of the EU have been removed. Let’s look forward and prepare for the day we set ourselves free; Alex Ferguson never worried about what the other team would do, he just worried about his team, and that goes for all successful people in any sphere. In my job we plan for casualties but never even contemplate defeat – if the Leave campaign adopts that approach it will win hands down.

  43. Ken Moore
    Posted February 1, 2016 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    I note that Mr Cameron has returned to his usual left wing form by calling Britain racist because “as a black man you are more likely to be in a prison cell than studying at a top university”. True to form he has recruited another chip of the old Blair block by asking David Lammy to report. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could work this out for themselves (gangs, low aspirations, lack of role models)

    Is there no limit to the amount of loathing Cameron has towards his own country?. It’s hardly surprising he is so keen to lock Britain in the Eu prison and throw away the key.

    It doesn’t matter how tolerant we are it is never enough for the PC thinkers….to think that the Conservative party used to believe in pushing personal responsibility. Now it’s just a pusher of the whole rotten victim culture.

  44. Jeremy Smith
    Posted February 1, 2016 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    You will notice those scaremongerers who suggest it will dissaterouse for Great Britain if they leave the EU never have any facts to substantiate their case

    Whilst those that advocate our leaving can substantiate why such as “160 other countries around the world trade with the EU but do not pay contributions to the EU budget, and do not accept freedom of movement”.

    Let’s get real and stop those remain in the EU liars causing FUD, (Fear Uncertainty and Dount). UK would be much better off as an independent democracy again – remember Great Britain built an empire and free traded with the world.

    Time to Leave the EU – BREXIT

  45. Jeremy Smith
    Posted February 1, 2016 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    You will notice those scaremongerers who suggest it will dissaterouse for Great Britain if they leave the EU never have any facts to substantiate their case

    Whilst those that advocate our leaving can substantiate why such as “160 other countries around the world trade with the EU but do not pay contributions to the EU budget, and do not accept freedom of movement”.

    Let’s get real and stop those remain in the EU liars causing FUD, (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt). UK would be much better off as an independent democracy again – remember Great Britain built an empire and free traded with the world.

    Time to Leave the EU – BREXIT

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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