Asylum, EU law and the EU-Turkey Agreement

Yesterday we raised in Parliament the issue of the EU’s wish to abolish the Dublin convention.  Anne Main MP asked an Urgent Question of the government. We wanted to know how asylum claims would be handled under the revised law the EU is discussing.

The Dublin Convention states that the first country receiving an asylum seeker in the EU should normally handle the asylum claim. The idea was to work with national authorities rather than overriding them all the time. Now the EU thinks that it ought to introduce a system of burden sharing, where the states most likely to receive asylum seekers – Greece, Italy, Spain etc – can require other member states to take a quota or share of the new arrivals and to process their asylum requests and offer those successful a home.

The Minister explained that the UK could opt out of this new arrangement, though he fell short of promising the UK definitely would opt out. He said the UK would still work under the Dublin approach, and regard its duty as being to handle asylum requests only from people arriving first in the UK, or people with family connections. He saw that if the EU abolishes the Dublin  Convention to replace it with a quota system then the new EU law will somehow have to keep the Dublin approach just for the UK. He seemed to think that would be the case. We will need to see the language of the proposals as the negotiations develop. It would make the new law more complex.

It is all a timely reminder of just how fluid fundamental matters are in the EU. The UK supports the Dublin rules, but does not seem to think it can stop major revision to the system. Once again the UK will be fighting from the sidelines for special treatment. Ahead of the referendum the rest of the EU will doubtless allow the Uk to imply nothing need change in our arrangements. But what would happen if we voted to stay in? The other countries probably think the Uk should do more and should help them in their hour of need by accepting a substantial quota under the new rules they are designing.

I asked the Minister about the extracts I published from EU documents yesterday on the question of the Turkish borders. I did not get an answer to my queries within the reply of the Minister. .

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59 Comments

  1. Lifelogic
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:21 am | Permalink

    But what would happen if we voted to stay in? The UK will be treated with utter contempt of course, even more than they are already. It UK voters are daft enough to vote remain perhaps they deserve it. Even if they had been tricked into it by the BBC, Cameron, Osborne, May and dishonest leaflets the tax payer paid for …..

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:31 am | Permalink

      I listened to the media show on radio 4 yesterday where Lord Patton described Cameron, Osborne and May as the sane wing of the party. I assume he meant they are the ones who want the bloated lefty BBC and hugely biased propaganda (on the EU, climate alarmist, magic money tree economics, open door immigration & ever more bloated government and the rest to continue). Along with the huge over payment of the their second rate, “Guardian think” staff.

      All that was rotten about the BBC was on full display on the programme with Robert Preston, Lord Patton and their “Diversity and Inclusion” officer. I assume the person who want to bring in blatant discrimination against certain sorts of people in order to hit his targets.

      • Hope
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

        But what had Patten ever achieved? He has always been given jobs. The public roundly sacked him as a MP! Again, once sacked by the electorate politicos find him a job for life! Sane compared to whom! Suggest all Tory MPs read Guido Fawkes on Cameron’s contrasting claims. He was going to pave the way from Ankara to Brussells, giving away our taxes to help Turkey quickly join the EU and now wants to convince people that Turkey’s entry to the EU is not on the cards if that is why they would vote for leaving. You cannot believe a word he says. Why don’t the select committees get changed from MPs to a jury system with an expert as the chairman?

      • Horatio
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

        The BBC has 40% of UK media share and Cast Iron Dave has alliwed it to flourish. Disgusting.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:38 am | Permalink

      Three excellent articles in the spectator this week with James Delingpole – The slow death of environmentalist and Douglas Murray on – Turkey’s triumph. Also Steven Robinson – A toe-curling tragedy, Zak Goldsmith’s London campaign was an embarrassment.

      Who on earth chose the rich, Cameron “A” list, Eco Nut. He was always going to be a disaster electorally in London. Still at least we can get on with a five runway Heathwick now perhaps?

      • Dame Rita Webb
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:09 am | Permalink

        Yes there is an excellent article too for the all NHS bashers on the NPR website. America is supposed to have the gold standard healthcare system in the world yet “Why Medical Error Is The Third Leading Cause Of Death In The U.S.”

        • Lifelogic
          Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

          The US system in not the best either. But the NHS is an expensive disaster that can never work as structured, it kills thousands, the customers are treated as a nuisance. It is a system that only barely works at all due to a few very hard working & very diligent front line staff.

          The system and the way the money flows round it is a total disaster. It organisation is a disaster. It error rate is appalling. It is a system of rationing (and deterring customers) rather than serving them. The veterinary service is far better run. Worse still being free (at the point of rationing and poor service) it kills most of the (often more efficient) competition.

          Imagine a state food supplier that took all your money off you in advance and then provided you some free food they thought you needed. Do you thing that would work well?

        • Anonymous
          Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

          It might be something to do with legal experts with medical specialities – making any death the fault of the doctor treating the patient. The insurance for doctors in the US is sky high. Here junior doctors must pay £3000 pa in public liability insurance (on top of refresher exams at £500 a go.)

          None of this is mentioned when doctors are criticised for how much they are paid.

          • Anonymous
            Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

            Being sued for medical negligence in the US is virtually routine for doctors.

    • Sheila Kitson
      Posted May 9, 2016 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

      Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more

  2. DaveM
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    The UK will appear to ‘fight from the sidelines’as you say, but in reality the current PM will do exactly as he’s told by whomever he happens to be in a room with at the time. He reminds me of a character on the Fast Show who used to agree with whoever was speaking and change his mind constantly. Unfortunately he’s far more loyal to his EU masters than he is to his party and the folk who elected him.

    etc ed

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

      They did not so much as elect him as reject the idea of a Miliband dog wagged by a Nicola Sturgeon Scottish tail. He could not even beat the sitting duck Gordon (no return to boom or bust & pension thief) Brown outright.

      The country was crying out for a proper EUsceptic, low tax, smaller government Tory, it still is.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        Perhaps even one who kept the £1M IHT threshold promise or who really was a “low tax Conservative at heart”. Above all one who thinks government is best when it keeps out of the way as much as possible and believes in cheap reliable on demand energy.

  3. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    Whats the big story here? If you are Turkish you can come to the UK now by simply stating that you are getting a job in a kebab or barber shop which line virtually any high street in the UK. What does the UK get out of this in return?

    https://www.gov.uk/turkish-business-person

  4. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    There are no asylum seekers landing on the shores of Greece or Italian islands. They cannot be adjudged asylum seekers until a judicial system is progressed to deem them so…or not. The human beings landing in boats are attempting to make illegal entry in countries which NATO is supposed to be protecting. Obviously NATO, the Greek and Italian armed forces are a Dad’s Army.

    Mr Trump intends reducing drastically US contributions to NATO in terms of money and physical resources. The UK should take the 2% of our GDP as demanded by the soon to be Ex-President Obama and reduce our NATO contribution to timely Advice, sent by email to Greece and Italy.

  5. Brexit Facts4eu.org
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Thank you once again for pursuing these important issues in Parliament. We’ll be covering part of this in another piece later today.

    In the course of our researches we ‘joined up the dots’ on what the EU Commission said in relation to their new Dublin proposals. Specifically they will require a ‘solidarity contribution’ from member states who decline to take migrants, of €250,000 per migrant.

    Eurostat now admit to the EU accepting 1.32m asylum applications last year. At €250,000 per man, woman, and child, this equates to a total cost for last year’s intake of over a quarter of a trillion pounds.

    You can read the full story here:
    http://facts4eu.org/news.htm

  6. Antisthenes
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    The UK is now governed by the EU, ECJ, ECHR and UK parliamentary legislation is mostly about rubber stamping of Brussels diktats. We still have some matters that we can legislate on but the number of those is diminishing rapidly. We are no longer a sovereign nation that has the right to self determination.

    The UK led and taught the world democracy, to respect human rights to cherish independence, civil rights and to respect the rule of law. Our standards in all these areas were high and no nation could say theirs were better only a few could say they were equal. Well it has all been for naught because now we have to live by EU and ECHR standards in all those areas and from what I can see they are not up to the standards we had already achieved in fact many are a backward step.

  7. Anonymous
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    They give us economic scare stories about Brexit but they don’t tell us of the economic perils if we remain.

    It’s all very well the British economy being very busy – but if it’s citizens are poor because the rewards are spread so thinly among so many more newly arrived people, does that not have the same effect on the individual as living in a poor country ?

    For the average UK citizen there are very real personal economic risks if we Remain.

  8. Mark B
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    Those coming into Europe are not going to stay at the first place they come to, eg Italy, Spain and Greece, because there are no jobs and no prospects. They are going to Northern European countries like the UK, France, Norway and Germany. Places where there are jobs, services etc. Problems is, when they all start to come there is only so much of the pie to go around and, as we are seeing in our schools, NHS, transport and housing, everyone starts to suffer especially those on low incomes. Shackled to the EU we are slowly descending into the abyss. This is Socialism at its worst – shared misery.

    OUT !!!

  9. JoeSoap
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    The whole system is becoming an absurdity. We either have the power and will to control who comes into the country or we don’t. The question which should be on the ballot paper on June 23 should relate directly to that.

    • Horatio
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

      40,000 UK children on the foster care waiting list. Charity begins at home. Heard an interview with the utterly wet ‘Tory’ MP Stephen Philips today on this, British children won’t go to the back of the queue he said. They have in Kent. It’s an utter disgrace.

  10. JoeSoap
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Also, watch how the weasel Cameron will slip and slide away from his remarks about Trump. Why does he constantly shoot himself and thence us in the foot?

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:06 am | Permalink

      Because he has no judgement of character. Remember the people he choses to associate with like (unknown names removed ed)?. He says Farage has a “poncey” name yet he forgets about the photo of him in his Bullingdon Club uniform

    • bluedog
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      Perhaps we can look forward to seeing Mrs Cameron and Mrs Trump deep in animated conversation.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

        No Cameron will be gone before then.

    • Iain Moore
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:51 am | Permalink

      Because Cameron is besotted with all things ‘progressive’ and so thought he would ingratiate himself with the metropolitan set by bad mouthing Trump.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

        Indeed he is far more in tune with the dreadful Hillary Clinton and the Libdims. Not that I am keen on Trump either.

    • Mitchel
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:59 am | Permalink

      Even better would be Dave’s reaction when a future President Trump announces that the Special Relationship is henceforth with Vladimir Putin!

      • stred
        Posted May 6, 2016 at 9:22 am | Permalink

        Well, it was interesting to see Eural shaking hands with Vlad when they needed to have a Syrian peace deal. Also, nice to see that Rolls Royce have been chosen to provide the safety controls to Finland’s new adapted Russian designed nuclear power station at Fennovioma. This is due to produce electricity at under half the price agreed for Hinkley Point.

        Apparently, we can’t chose this type and have to stick with the European Pressurised Reactor at Hinkley for political reasons, despite it being called a lousy design by Prof Thomas of Greenwich University, that has not only tripped up the Finns but the French and Chinese. The reactor is reported to be made from defective steel. But DECC is keen to go for the duffer.

        The late Prof MacKay in his last interview gave his opinion that the UK should build nuclear base generation in order to avoid thousands freezing in a cold stil spell and we might as well run it all year round and not build massive wind farms. We are continuing to do so in the middle of the North sea, at great expense. The most respected energy expert in the world has just trashed our energy policy.

        But we have ordered a useless nuke and are building on the Dogger Bank a vast windfarm backed by ex Tory ministers as chairmen of the consortium. But whatever, stay clear of Putin, unles we have to shake hands once in a while.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

      Why indeed? Well Cameron is a Libdem in essence. Green crap, pro EU, tax borrow and waste, enforces equality, token this and that, fake equality, central control, wage controls, endless tax increases, government know best person. Just like the bossy lawyer Hillary Clinton. She always reminds me of being scolded at school by a daft & bossy primary school teacher.

    • Paul
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

      I certainly hope Trump wins. The world needs a man in the White House and I certainly don’t mean 1st man, which we would get if Hilary wins. Hopefully by then the UK would have voted to #LEAVE and Cameron would be long gone.

  11. Lifelogic
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Interesting to read about the letter from many of the usual suspects in the Lords to try to deter the Times from publishing and articles supportive of climate realism. They must want to keep the climate alarmist religion safe from real science & reality. Otherwise the whole tax payer subsidies for green crap and those lucrative consultancies might dry up I suppose.

    Are these people really just deluded or is it rather more sinister than that?

    -re-climate-change-coverage

    If their science is so solid why no warming since 1998 and how many more years of no warming will it take before they finally accept reality. This despite the increasing CO2 concentrations.

  12. Ian Wragg
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    As I said yesterday but was censored
    Allowing Turkey into the EU will be the single most stupid act (words left out ed) imposed on any society.
    History will judge it as the terminal act of Europe.
    When we have 3000 unaccompanied minors how will that pan out when their extended family demand to join them
    Probably 30,000 in total.

  13. Lifelogic
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    If their science is solid it does not need protecting from any criticism in the Times. Most of these people do have the excuse of being rather old I suppose, But many (especially the scientists and mathematicians) should have known far better than to sign such a silly letter. Hopefully they will all live long enough to see another 18 years of no warming. Perhaps then they will finally accept they were wrong?

    It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong. Richard P. Feynman.

  14. Bert Young
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Fudging around the laws from Brussels is no way forward for us . We need clean straightforward controls over our borders without “ifs” and “buts”. We do not need or want migrants of any description ; our population is bursting at the seams .

    The people who represent us have the responsibility to enact laws and conditions that reflect the will and determination of the people , not the sloppy bent thinking of individuals who are soaked in their own egos . Cameron and his cohorts don’t stand any chance whatsoever of remaining in positions of influence once the referendum is over ; the result will show the doggedness of the voters and how much they despise weakness .

  15. Iain Moore
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    In light of the Government U turning on the issue of child migrants, does anybody have any confidence in the Government fighting and defending any position that restricts migrants coming here? Their actions always adds people to our already over populated country, they never ever establish control or restrict the flow of migrants.

    I have come to the conclusion that British Establishment’s heart really isn’t in their claimed policy of restricting the number of immigrants. The more they claim they want to control immigrants, the more immigrants seem to end up here. In light of many of the British establishment coming from the top universities I cannot believe this policy failure is the result of them being stupid and incompetent , it can only be the result of them manufacturing this incompetence because they really don’t want to control immigration at all. For them and their backers immigration is a profitable business, so we get a lot of faux concern about immigration without them managing to implement any policies that will successfully control it, in fact their actions usually end up adding to the number of people able to come here, and this Turkey deal will result in just that.

  16. Know-dice
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    The only way the EU as a socialist (almost communist) construct can work is if the “richer” countries are willing to divest all of their wealth to the poorer countries until all countries are equal.
    It is inevitable that this will in the short and long term mean a deterioration of our (UK) standard of living as new and all poorer countries join the EU.

    Is this what we are willing to sacrifice?

    CMD, Clegg etc. are more than willing to sell us down the river, whilst taking their gold plated pensions.

    Remain is definitely NOT maintaining the status quo, leave means we can control how much we are willing or not willing to subsidise other countries.

  17. DaveM
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Mr R, off-topic because this isn’t a subject you normally address.

    There is much talk of sovereignty regarding the EU Referendum, and obviously fiscal independence is a major part of this. However, another major factor determining a sovereign nation is its ability to decide and pursue independent foreign policy.

    As a member of HM Armed Forces, I always stress the “HM”. The political neutrality of the armed forces is very important in this country where the presidential PM changes on a regular basis, and the Oath of Allegiance sworn by all members of the forces is specifically designed to ensure they are loyal to the monarch, as the physical embodiment of UK sovereignty. This is very important to 99% of serving and former members of the forces, and the loyalty shown to the monarch is always reciprocated.

    The idea that loyalty is possibly going to be transferred to bureaucrats in Brussels is unthinkable for most of us; there are over 200000 serving members, and millions of former members, not to mention their families, and close friends. The idea of losing a son/brother/husband in the service of the UK is horrific enough, but the idea of losing someone because of misdirected foreign policy and foreign command is abhorrent.

    I have met less than a handful of serving servicemen and women who intend to vote to remain. What I am asking you is to please, please, please, make public the intentions of Juncker and his allies with regards to EU foreign policy and armed forces. This is a massive thing for myself and many othe forces personnel, and would have a huge effect on the way people vote in the EU Ref.

    I know the PM has said he won’t commit our forces in the service of an EU army, but quite frankly I don’t believe him and I don’t trust him not to go back on his word.

    • bluedog
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

      Well said. Cameron is the sort of fool who will push the loyalty of HM Armed Forces to the limit.

      Slightly off topic, perhaps the enthusiasm for Turkish entry into the EU is that Turkey is a potential supplier of cannon fodder for the EU Army. etc ed

    • Anonymous
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

      It’s not that HM has an army – it’s that HM is the only person allowed to HAVE an army. This is one of the things which keeps our country stable.

  18. Mike Stallard
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Here in Australia, the Immigration system seems to be working well. There is decent mixing with the different races and, yes, intermarriage too. Children seem to play together too. Teenagers, though, often appear to be all the same colour when in groups.

    If only we had the same kind of legal system in UK! Being flooded with (various named groups ed) is not what anybody in their senses really wants to see happen.

    Except the government. But their lives and their houses and their jobs are safe anyway.

  19. formula57
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Reporting the actions of the EU Commission where it contemplates enforcement action through the EU court against countries (19 of them!) that, not enjoying opt-outs, are not implementing EU asylum policy, the news24 website comments on EU Migration Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos’s actions and says: –

    “Germany received some criticism for its decision to no longer turn back Syrians, which unleashed a wave of migrants attempting to reach the country.

    “In my eyes, it was an initiative that somehow contributed in collapsing [the] Dublin system,” Avramopoulos said, referring to EU rules that require asylum applications to be processed in the first member state a person sets foot in.

    But he was quick to add that Germany “didn’t do it intentionally”.”

    (Found @ http://www.news24.com/World/News/EU-Commission-cracks-down-on-19-countries-in-breach-of-asylum-rules-20150923 )

    So collapse of an EU system arising from actions by Germany producing consequences it did not intend! It is indeed, as you say, ” all a timely reminder of just how fluid fundamental matters are in the EU”.

    Meanwhile, as many may know, Hungary is to give itself a referendum in the autumn asking the question “Do you want the EU, even without the approval of Hungarian parliament, to be able to prescribe the mandatory resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens in Hungary?”

    Perhaps if Brexit fails this time, the UK should then hold a simiilar referendum coincidental to that planned by Hungary. It would then at least enable the Minister to give some proper answers to Parliament rather than repeat the most recent shabby performance.

  20. The PrangWizard
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Off Topic:

    I have just returned from casting my vote. In place of the former three sided single enclosures, some of which had a curtain too, where it was possible to vote easily in secret we now have a new modular design of booth which is enclosed on only two sides. There is no curtain.

    If these are not in universal use (I am in the Thames Valley) they are based around a central post, around each of which I imagine there can be up to four booths, so each is triangular in shape.

    I was the only person in the room at the time but had there been others it would not have been difficult for an observer to see my ballot paper from either my left or right as inevitably there is an open space to each side. The only way to try to avoid this is to keep the paper very close to ones-self and hide in the manner of a school pupil leaning over his writings to stop being overlooked.

    I dare say this new design has been thought up by someone trying to reduce costs, and I don’t know who approved the design, but we now have another example of our secret ballots being not so secret any more, so intimidation is made much easier here too – even when a voter tries to hide where they put their marks it is perfectly possible for someone else to claim to be able to see, not possible in the earlier safer design.

    I think these new booths should be discontinued. They are not safe.

  21. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Off-topic, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph today about TTIP:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/04/let-the-ttip-trade-pact-die-if-it-threatens-parliamentary-democr/

    “Brussels estimates that the treaty would ultimately increase Europe’s GDP by 0.5pc. If that is all there is, it is a trivial prize set against a further loss of sovereign democratic control over our laws, rules, principles, and way of life.”

    So what about the EU Single Market, which has increased the UK’s GDP by only 1%?

    https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/Policy-Brief-Binnenmarkt-en_NW_02_2014.pdf

    The main problem is that we are deeply entangled with it and for practical reasons we will need to be very careful how we extricate ourselves; it seems highly improbable that could be done in a single step, “with one bound he was free”.

  22. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Whether or not the EU abolishes the Dublin Convention we should certainly withdraw from the 1951 UN Convention on refugees and the 1967 Protocol:

    http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html

    We are entitled to do so, with one year’s notice, under Article 44 of Convention:

    “DENUNCIATION

    1. Any Contracting State may denounce this Convention at any time by a notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

    2. Such denunciation shall take effect for the Contracting State concerned one year from the date upon which it is received by the Secretary-General of the United Nations … ”

    And the corresponding Article IX in the Protocol.

    The original 1951 Convention was intended to deal only with the aftermath of the Second World War, and only in Europe; it was the insane 1967 Protocol which removed those limitations and applied the same very generous terms to the whole world for all time, and which is now being very widely abused on a massive scale by people who are not in reality refugees but a mixture of economic migrants and draft dodgers.

  23. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/commission-proposes-scheme-forcing-states-take-refugees-grants-turkey-visa-free-travel/

    “Passauer Neue Presse quotes Wolfgang Bosbach, interior policy expert in Angela Merkel’s CDU/CSU, as saying, “There are still considerable concerns within our parliamentary group against via free entry [for Turkish citizens to the EU], because it could lead to an increase in irregular migration.””

    There’s really no “could” about it, it’s nothing like the “could” of a claim such as “Brexit could precipitate Armageddon”, it’s bleedin’ obvious that it “would”. And where “would” many of those “irregular” migrants end up? Encamped on the other side of the Channel, that’s where, waiting for an opportunity to barge their way into our country, when our government “would” definitely let them stay because that is what it does.

  24. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    This is what Cameron told a parliamentary committee yesterday:

    “So I would say very clearly to people, if your vote in this referendum is being influenced by considerations about Turkish membership of the EU, don’t think about it. It is not remotely on the cards. It’s not an issue in this referendum.”

    That is, “not remotely on the cards” until after the referendum; and don’t expect another referendum if the vote is to stay in the EU, not on whether we should stay in the EU – the last one was 41 years ago – or on whether we shared Cameron’s expressed desire to see Turkey in the EU as soon as possible – Hague made sure of that with Section 4(4)(c) of his “referendum block” law, the European Union Act 2011:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/section/4

    which he used to block a referendum on whether we wanted Croatia in the EU:

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20121212135632/http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/eu-act-croatia-stmnt-020212

  25. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    From London by helicopter to Manchester = 1h 30mins
    ” ” ” ” ” Cardiff = 1h 10mins
    ” ” ” ” ” Newcastle = 1h 55mins
    ” ” ” ” ” Edinburgh = 2h 30mins
    ” ” ” ” ” Plymouth = 1h 30mins

    Cameron and Team Remaindian really make a meal out of managing this small island.
    If they had anything to do with the progress of aviation history we would all be trying to figure out whether we should put a tail on our kites, how long, in centimetres or inches, its weight in ounces or grammes ( or grams ) and if it is time for din-dins or not.

  26. bluedog
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Stop press. According to The Grauniad, Turkish PM Davutoglu has resigned following disagreements with President Erdogan. Davutoglu is reported as being the architect of the EU-Syrian deal in which Erdogan has apparently shown little interest. It follows that the entire deal may soon collapse if Erdogan is opposed to it.

  27. Atlas
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m watching Mary Beard’s TV series on the Roman Empire with interest. It may show what will happen to the EU too.

  28. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Dave’s been at it again. In Japan this time. Because of the peculiar method of street and house-addressing in Japan, he was able to go round all the streets and houses even better wiffle-waffling about what he thinks, now, of Mr Trump. You’ve guessed it. He’s now singing a more conciliatory different tune. Also, because of a linguistic interpreter-error sold them a flock of sheep primarily EWES
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/donald-trump-deserves-the-our-respect-cameron-says/

    Etc ed

  29. Dennis
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Off topic? If 3000 unaccompanied children were in a squalid camp in the UK for months there would be marching and rioting in the streets here and the media would be on it relentlessly every day blasting the govt. to do something.

    Is this not happening in France ? I don’t know as no one in the media is asking. There is silence on this. What do the French public think or say about Calais?

  30. stred
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    I wonder what the Greeks will make of the rush to usher Turkey into their club. The rate of youth unemployment has gone up to over 50% now, but Eu politicians like Guy Louise Verhofstatd are still urging them to sign up for more- re Guy Verhofstadt on a United Europe on Youtube.

    He also is available telling off Boris and calling conservative Leavers ‘totally bonkers’ on 24.Feb.16 in the EU Parliament. Oddly enough he also threatens that the USA will refuse to trade with us if we leave. I wonder how he knew what Barrack would be told to say in advance. Anyone with a nervous disposition should avoid watching.

  31. Original Richard
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    The EU will find that there may be 75m people living in Turkey but 150m people or more with Turkish passports.

    I do not think the EU has implemented any system to track and remove Turkish people who have overstayed their visa.

    Come to that, neither has the UK.

    • bluedog
      Posted May 5, 2016 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

      One suspects that the new growth industry in the Middle East and North Africa will be the mass-production of Turkish passports. Syrian passports are sooo 2015.

  32. getahead
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    The EU should have by now organised a repatriation scheme. If wealthy European nations continue to accept third world economic migrants, then very soon those wealthy European nations will themselves become third world.

  33. fedupsoutherner
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Well, I’ve voted today but living in Scotland I have had to vote tactically to try and stop the SNP have a landslide. If I were in England ( and hope to be soon) I would have voted UKIP as they are the only party being true to their beliefs. I have always been a Tory voter every since I was old enough to vote and I am now 60 but all the time Dave is in charge of the party I cannot bring myself to vote for him. I despair of politics today and many others are saying the same. There is no distinction between all the parties. They all say and do the same things. Cameron is going on about being Green. If I wanted a Green party I would vote for it. As it is, the Tory party is
    left/right/middle/Green/Libdim.

    Cameron has turned his back on his country and its people. When I think how generations of Britons have fought and worked for this country it makes my blood boil to think how Cameron is throwing it all away and giving control of our great nation to Europe and in particular Merkel and in future God knows what.

    I fear for my children and my grandchildren for their futures. England will be no more.

  34. sm
    Posted May 5, 2016 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    If we dont exit the EU

    – much much higher EU subscriptions.
    – much higher costs for the poorest EU citizens relocating to the UK.
    – much higher housing costs due to increasing demand exceeding supply.
    – lower wages due to competition from surplus labour in the EU.
    – much higher demand on publicly funded resources.
    – much higher levels of congestion and lower quality of environment.

    Perhaps , we should be asking for £250k per EU immigrant and NON EU immigrant over the last 10 years! to be deducted from our contributions.

    Say 3million *250k = £750 bn.
    What the national debt again? 1,750 billion.

    We need a proper wealth tax (offshore and onshore) just to pay for these idiotic policies.

    Where is density taken into account. Sustainability?Cohesion? School places?

    We should be investing with a Marshall plan like to buy an island or a country just to house them all, any offers, ideas? How about Syria?

    Another risk is a major long term strategic flight of talented human capital out of the UK to anywhere else that has a semblance of democracy and responsibility.

  35. rose
    Posted May 6, 2016 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    We are said to be taking c 250,000 EU immigrants every year which we can’t do anything about. So why are we taking more than that from Africa and Asia? They can’t all be asylum seekers – or are they? Anyway we should definitely come out of the Geneva Convention which was drawn up and agreed for Europeans not the whole world.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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