The EU helps strengthen Turkish borders

The third EU Commission Report on progress in Turkey fulfilling EU requirements has changed the language a bit in its latest version, but still contains interesting comments on the EU approach to borders.
Item 10 requires Turkey to deploy sufficient “well trained and qualified border guards” (including military personnel)with “efficient infrastructure, equipment and IT technology, including through a more extensive use of surveillance equipment, in particular electronic means, mobile and fixed,video surveillance, infrared cameras and other sensor systems”. There are to be double lines of defence. “Land border detachments are based in border stations and observation towers near the border…patrolling…six kilometres into the territory from the border. A second line of surveillance is handled by the Gendarmerie.”
“The Turkish authorities have strengthened controls along the Syrian border through the construction of obstacles, fences, illuminations and patrolling roads”.
EU funded projects are helping strengthen these force deployments along the borders.
In other words the EU does now approve of physical barriers along stretches of the Turkish border to try to keep migrants out of Turkey and the EU. EU taxpayers are helping pay for better barriers, more surveillance and improved border defence forces. In return the EU becomes more dependent on the success of the Turkish authorities in policing their long borders with Iraq, Iran and Syria as the visa free area between Turley and the Schengen area of the EU takes shape.
It is a curious policy. Within the EU the EU is against physical borders and boundaries and in favour of free movement. The EU favours proper border controls on the EU’s external borders, but here along the Turkish border there is now an ambivalence as some of the attention shifts from the EU/Turkey border to the Turkey/Syria border. What is clear from the language and budgets is that the EU does now have a Trump element in its borders policy, helping finance tough border barriers to stop migration. The difficulty rests in the great length of the external frontiers and in combining this with visa free policies.

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69 Comments

  1. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    Are we not in a “visa free area” already? If not why does every high street around the UK now seem to have a Turkish barbers?

    • Hope
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Written in articles over the weekend, why does Germany get to agree the deal with Turkey without reference to the other 27 countries? EU preventing Holland from even discussing its referendum not to allow Ukraine in the Schengen area. What say do the public have in these 28 countries to allow Turkish people free movement across the continent? Let us be clear if Turkish people are free to move around the rest of the EU countries then they will come here, just the same as Albanins as Gove explained. Similarly Italy and other EU countries issue paper cards which are easily forged allowing people to travel around at will. We are in danger from terrorists because of Cameron, Osborne and May being reckless with our safety in their fanatism to become part of a superstate. The first duty of govt. is to keep us safe. may has resoundingly failed on all fronts: hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants lost to the system, cannot deport terrorists wishing to harm us, allows convicted EU offenders in the UK without monitoring who have gone on to commit murder and other serious offences, terrorists allowed to wonder in and out of the U.K. as we discovered with the Paris attacks. Why does Cameron, Osborne and May continue to lie we are safer in the EU? How about the victims of these horrendous crimes, let alone the cost of prosecuting and jailing them? £18 million to jail (people ed) who are allegedly not in the Eau yet! Yesterday we read how the immigrants who committed hundreds of sexually assaults on women in Cologne will not be prosecuted. With one grave victims speaking out about her outrage of the police being overwhelmed. Turkey has porous land borders, we have seen UK citizens uaing the open border to join ISIS, they can travel the opposite direction as well! We are at massive risk when Turkey is allowed free movement of travel around the EU. When did we give Cameron, Osborne and May authority to put us in harms way? Are they really that stupid?

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

        Are they really that stupid?

        Well Osborne appeared with Balls and Cable the other day (both wrong on almost everything & rightly rejected by the electorate) to promote “remain”. He also believes that he is the man to fix companies wages by law, is introducing a sugar tax, ratted on his IHT promise, runs a record trade deficit, is building the mad HS2, delaying Heathwick, running tax rates about the Laffer point, with absurd tax complexity, a huge PSBR and seems to think all immigration is good.

        He even mocks Brexit supporters as Loch Ness monster ‘conspiracy theorists’. When it is the clearly remain side on the religious, creationist, Loch Ness Monster side of the argument.

        Brexit is entirely logical, rational, better economically and above all democratic.

        So yes he certainly seem to be that stupid. Now he seems to think Balls is a font of wisdom and an asset!

        • Hope
          Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

          I do not know why Osborne would take stage with two failures who the public booted out from office and think we would suddenly change our minds about two failures? Although Osborne is in the exact same economic failure category.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted May 18, 2016 at 4:21 am | Permalink

          Above the Laffer point.

      • Hope
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

        Mr Gove include in his speech how Albanian criminals in jail is costing the UK £18 million as Justice Secretary he ought to know.

        Who is going to ask the urgent question whether Cameron was urging big business to campaign for out 8 days before when he saying in parliament he ruled nothing out? Is it Mr Rees-Mogg, Mr Johnson or yourself. We need to know if Cameron misled (or lied) parliament and his discussions were a sham. Cameron needs to walk if it is true.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted May 18, 2016 at 4:22 am | Permalink

          Of course his discussions were a sham.

    • Alan
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:30 am | Permalink

      “Visa free” means permitting entry into the Schengen area without a visa. They will still need to identify themselves a the borders. It doesn’t allow them to work in the Schengen area, and it doesn’t allow them even to enter the UK. They don’t get the right to work in the UK.

      Reply They do once they have documentation in another EU state.

      • Hope
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

        Card documents issued by some EU countries which are easily subject to fraud.

    • yulwaymartyn
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

      Mainly because they are open to 10 pm every night and the general public work such long and unsocial hours that they have spotted an opening. Enterprise.

  2. Lifelogic
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:21 am | Permalink

    It is indeed a curious policy, but then EU policies nearly always are.

    CAP, throwing back dead fish, making our toasters, vacuums and kettles slower (while saving no energy), a one size fits all policy (when it clearly does not), the working time directive, most of their employment laws, their bonkers energy policy, their climate alarmism, having three EU parliaments in Brussels, Luxembourg, and Strasbourg …….

    • Know-dice
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:50 am | Permalink

      LL, You don’t understand…if you are going to be a member of a club you need to make compromises…this MUST be correct Amber Rudd says so 🙁

      The problem with this and previous Governments they tell the other club members the compromises they are going to make BEFORE negotiating.

      And on News Night last night it seems that the Commonwealth have special trade access to the Single Market, why would this not apply to the UK when we leave?

      We already have harmonised laws and standards, a trade negotiation should be a single meeting “rubber stamp” job, unless the EU wish to try and make an example of us, in which case is this REALLY a club we want to be part of?

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:16 am | Permalink

      Would you elect a government with an agenda like this?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

      David Cameron warns that Isil will be ‘happy’ with Brexit.

      The man is really getting very desperate! What is he going to be like in a months time? Doubless he will be predicting a massive asteroid impact next. The poles are surely likely to keep moving towards Brexit (as more and more people realise that remain simply has no valid arguments).

      • JoeSoap
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

        This is certifiable.
        ISIL warriors being bombed and routed by Putin, laying awake at night worrying about Brexit? Totally nuts.

  3. APL
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    “Item 10 requires Turkey to deploy sufficient “well trained and qualified border guards””

    This is ‘soft diplomacy’ of the insane. If the EU is spending all those Euro’s to persuade Turkey to stem the flow of refugees, why not simply employ their own Greek guards, put their own border infrastructure in place. Instead of contracting out to an unreliable third party, Turkey.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:01 am | Permalink

      They could offset some of the Greek debt by employing Greeks as you suggest or inject much needed foreign investment into the Greek economy.

      By including Turkey to patrol the now extended EU borders we get used to Turkey being part of our club.

      Drip, drip, drip. Incremental ‘progress’ is the least noticed. etc ed

  4. Lifelogic
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    Why exactly does the government, the establishment and the BBC keep telling us that immigration is an economic benefit to the country? Some clearly is, but most of the low paid immigration (perhaps as much as 80% of the total numbers) is clearly a huge economic liability.

    Low paid workers pay very little tax and still need schools, roads, housing, pensions, in work benefits, policing, the NHS, social services and all the rest.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/immigration-from-europe-cost-the-british-taxpayer-3m-a-day-last/

    • Richard1
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      Why don’t we hear anything about Trevor Phillips’s excellent but alarming report on the failure to integrate (parts of the migrant ed) population in the UK? After an initial flurry of a day or so and some faux outrage in the left it seems to have sunk without trace. He has raised some very serious issues which ought to be getting much more prominence and discussion than they are.

      • Richard1
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 11:48 am | Permalink

        Apologies I have taken editorial time with a comment requiring editing – but it is extraordinary how we have to tiptoe round what is apparently now a massive issue.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted May 17, 2016 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

          Indeed it is. Did you see the report on the large number of unregistered & illegal Muslim schools being run.

        • Hope
          Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

          Reported toda the true cost is £17 billion to the UK taxpayer between what taxes they pay against what they get back including use of public services.

          Andrew Lilico writes a good article about Osborne. He points out how he is now siding with people he previously ridiculed and now ridiculing former Tory chancellors who wish to leave the EU. Former chancellors wishing to remain being Major, Clarke and Osborne! I think Osborne has probably accepted there is no way he will be leader and is becoming desperate.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:48 am | Permalink

      Even lefties see its not working. Here is a cracking article from The Guardian about organised East European crime in The Fens. They are beginning to realise that if you want to finish off UKIP and stop Labour going the same way as the SPD in Germany (an irrelevance to the indigenous working class) secure the borders.

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/gangsters-on-our-doorstep

      • alan jutson
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 11:17 am | Permalink

        Dame Rita

        This sort of working/slave arrangement has been going on in the construction industry for years, all of us who were involved in construction know about it, but the authorities simply turn a blind eye, and concentrate their power on those who are honest and properly registered, because it is so much easier to do so.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:10 am | Permalink

      The figures given last week for tax take of EU immigrants v benefits claimed were £2.5 billion paid in taxes v £550 million benefits claimed. How much of the £2.5 billion tax was collected from Premier league footballers, bankers and other high net worth individuals who would be here without free movement with work visas? How much was contributed by waitresses and cleaners? I suspect that when we strip out those who would be here without free movement the figures are closer to 1:1 tax v benefits or even more benefits paid than taxes collected.

      No one has said immigration per se is bad just that unfettered open borders is unsustainable.

      As well as the costs to schools (at least £5K per pupil per year plus capital costs of building new schools), health and public services, the indigenous population incur higher costs of living because of increased demand for everything.

      Greater per capita numbers will of course grow the economy but most likely at a reduced rate per head so the average will reduce. The most probable outcome is this reduced average is felt most keenly at the bottom and the middle of the range rather than at the top where the call for unlimited immigration is loudest.

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:18 am | Permalink

      Immigration is an enormous benefit to the rich, to the large employers with a legal team and to people who need nannies, drivers, waiters, nurses, servants. As IDS has shown, to the working man and woman, immigration is a disaster.

    • Alan
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:36 am | Permalink

      Well, you shouldn’t believe everything you read in the Daily Telegraph. Maybe they got this bit wrong. Common observation shows that many of this country’s services – health services, cafés and restaurants, transport, construction, policing and security, etc, etc are dependent on immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.

      • Jagman84
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

        All that shows is that there is a preference shown (by employers) to those groups. The indigenous populations’ alleged aversion to menial work was encouraged by Tony Blair’s push for University education for all. Graduates do not expect to do such work, save while studying.

      • forthurst
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

        Common observation has nothing whatsoever to do with statistics; the DT article is simply reporting an academic paper published by MigrationWatch:

        http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/381

        As one would expect, immigrants from Western Europe have been net contributors, being of working age and being of similar education and intelligence to English people, those from recently acceded member states have been a drain but not as bad as third world immigrants. Clearly by encouraging immigration from countries with lower stardards the government is deliberately pauperising us so one has to assume their main objective is not fiscal but sociological, namely to multiculturise us beyond recognition as a culture or people. Is that your ambition, Alan?

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 10:42 am | Permalink

      It might be a net economic and fiscal benefit if all the migrants were young, fit, single and hardworking, and they were immediately deported once they started to age and/or ail and/or start families and/or show signs of indolence.

      But of course that is not how we do things; and nor would most of us wish to proceed on the basis that we invite people to settle here from abroad, but then dispose of them once their economic usefulness begins to decline or is becoming outweighed by the costs of looking after their offspring.

      I note in that Telegraph article:

      “Last year migrants from all parts of the world cost the British Exchequer £17 billion, or £46.5 million a day, reflecting the fact that migrants who arrived in the 1960s, for example, are now pensioners with greater healthcare costs.”

      Therefore when MigrationWatch concluded that Commonwealth immigration is costing the taxpayer much more than EU immigration there is a simple explanation which does not involve rushing to any perhaps ill-founded judgments about the relative merits of the immigrants from those different origins.

      Which is, that many of the Commonwealth immigrants came here earlier than the EU immigrants and have now entered the autumn and winter of their lives when they are unproductive and increasingly becoming a burden on the state, while most of the EU immigrants have still got that to come – but it will come.

    • Dennis
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

      It would be wonderful for 50 or so people doing all your shopping, cleaning, cooking and bringing you breakfast in bed every morning and paying you £1000 per week, tax free – such an economic benefit.

      But you have to have them living in your house/flat. Waiting a few hours every morning to use the bathroom is not much of a problem as compromise is a good thing.

      What’s not to like?

  5. sm
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    When I was a girl – a very long time ago – dystopian science fiction novels were very popular; I feel as though I am now living in one, but sadly it is reality.

    Turkey, a hitherto rational state for decades, is quite rapidly turning into an Islamic dictatorship whose word cannot be trusted (as native dissidents are discovering), yet we are expecting them to honestly co-operate with the increasingly lunatic flailings of the EU?

    • Mitchel
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 10:51 am | Permalink

      @sm.re dystopian science fiction novels,I agree entirely.It’s as though the Blair/Brown/Cameron establishment has taken the texts of Zamyatin,Orwell and Huxley as blueprints rather than warnings.And a fair slice of the population,it strikes me,already resemble the banal,incurious,futuristic Eloi from HG Wells’ Time Machine in their behaviour!

  6. Antisthenes
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    As usual the EU is shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. Gross incompetence, arrogance and hubris of the EU knows no bounds. Mad Merkel adding to the mix. Turkey a country that is regressing to a time before Ataturk is to be welcomed into the EU fold. The madness does not stop at Merkel it permeates every level of the Brussels elite. This is what happens when there is no democratic accountability and the EU has little to none of that.

    Power corrupts and we can see it in action in the EU. Brussels does what it like when it likes at taxpayers expense. And what it does benefits few and harms many. Since the age of the progressives that began some decades ago the west has moved into a phase where reason has been discarded. Where personal responsibility and self reliance has been ditched and standards and values have been devalued to a point that there are none. Merit has given way to mediocrity.

    All this has allowed religious fundamentalism to gain popularity to levels that were last seen centuries ago. It is seen by many as the only counter to the corruption and decadence that is so prevalent in governments around the world today. The UK once the bastion of probity has lost it’s way and decency is no longer seen as a virtue. The phase “post truth politics” coined by a Telegraph journalist I believe is very apt and demonstrates how low we have sunk.

  7. Roy Grainger
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Well, logical policies are hardly one of the EU’s strong points. I guess it is because the EU junta regard Turkey as a different and lesser potential EU member, ranking way below the elite countries.

    Personally I think it’s fair enough to let Farage have a go on the TV debates, it is after all UKIP who has been (partly, John would say) responsible for getting one. Much as I personally dislike his style and focus on immigration he represents a significant section of voters. I hope he makes his point about UK’s racist immigration policy whereby mainly black potential immigrants from India and West Indies are disadvantaged compared with mainly white potential immigrants from Romania etc.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 6:41 am | Permalink

      The current immigration policy is indeed blatantly racist and stupid too – EU migrants good so open door – the rest of the world bad go away. Why not look at the merits, abilities and quality of the people applying?

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

        Yet another economic benefit of Brexit.

    • Bob
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:55 am | Permalink

      @Roy Grainger
      Prior to the 2015 GE one of our candidates received a call from a BBC researcher to vet him for participation in an upcoming program. During the convertsation he raised “UK’s racist immigration policy” as you described above, and without further ado the conversation was swiftly terminated and no further contact was made.

  8. Horatio McSherry
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    John,

    The irony is, the EU apparatchiks’ idiocy knowing no bounds.

    The Turkish border issue is solely and purely down to trust of an openly duplicitous head of state who has every opportunity and every intention of holding the EU institutions to ransom. Not only can he hold them to ransom, the EU institutions have absolutely no way of ensuring or enforcing him to do what he promises to do; nor can they pull the plug on the deal as the retaliation will be even more catastrophic.

    They’ve made the age old (and staggeringly novice) mistake of doing a deal in such a way as to ensure every future decision they make can only be the wrong decision.

  9. bigneil
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    “Borders?” . . . . . .. Brilliant John – best laugh I’ve had for years.

  10. Bert Young
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Tempting Turkey into the requirements of the EU to inhibit the flow of migrants is a minefield ; unless neutral inspectors were in place , there would be no way of ensuring that the border constraints were in place . In any event proposals of this kind send out signals that it is just another stepping stone for them to join the club .

    From what I have read the Libyan route has now become the preferred way for migrants ; the numbers now entering via Italy are as bad as the numbers were into Greece . Dearlove was right to highlight the dangers that migrants pose to our security ; we do not have the resources in place to keep things watertight and we must not relax our attitude to this problem as Angelina believes we should . Today the rural Police have said how they are vulnerable to the threat of terrorism for any number of reasons .

  11. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Still no reason given why NATO has been pussy-footing in defending with force of arms if necessary Europe’s borders. Armed guards with instructions to shoot is the normal requirement of border guards throughout the world.

    Time also for the EU and the West to start meaningful talks with Damascus. The Russians do not have any observable difficulty in such matters.
    Syrian refugees should not be housed anywhere other than Syria. The number of refugees who say they have escaped fighting in Aleppo outstripped the total Allepo population of 2 million many months if not years ago.

    Still no announcement by the EU why all the Syrian young men refugees ( totalling more than the Syrian army and ISIS combined ) fleeing Syria mysteriously with large bank account, well-fed, and more than enough cash in their pockets for cigarettes which many British people cannot afford are averse to fighting for their country on one side or another.

  12. ian wragg
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    Today we read in the DM that Dave has colluded with big business to skew the referendum. Nothing new there then.
    The EU wants Turkey (and is willing to pay) to strengthen its borders whilst failing miserably to secure their own.
    It becomes more like a Brian Rix farce every day, visa free travel for Turks, open borders in Europe and terrorists and criminals being given free reign to operate.
    Anyone who votes to stay in this organisation on 23rd June must be deranged.
    Boris and Heffer were 100% correct in their analysis.

  13. Alan
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I think it’s entirely logical to propose strong external borders and no internal borders, to be in favour of free movement within the Schengen area and to control who comes into the Schengen area. It is what we do in the UK, where everyone is checked as they enter but there are no internal borders.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 11:39 am | Permalink

      Alan. The EU doesn’t have strong external borders. You don’t pay another country to police your borders.
      The EU is not a country.

  14. Lesley
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Just seen a small photo of the Electoral Commission’s leaflet shoved out for The Vote. As we are abroard we will not have the benefit of reading it but at a glance it tells you that Stay has the advantage. Left of the page, photos, short headings and in blue. The Exit side is solid prose, with few spaces, not large print and in ‘dangerous’ red.
    Who is responsible for this?

  15. Bob
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Mr Cameron’s contempt for the British people has been revealed in the Daily Mail today.
    I wonder if anyone was actually surprised by his duplicity?
    I certainly wasn’t. How about you Mr Redwood?

    • matthu
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

      John and the rest of the UK parliament were apparently all deceived by Cameron’s double-dealing. (Just as they were over the invasion of Iraq.)

      While the whole of parliament had been led to believe that nothing had yet been ruled out (and while they were therefore restricted from speaking out), Cameron was (allegedly) doing secret dodgy deals with Nicholas Soames’ brother, clandestinely agreeing how best to campaign for Remain while simultaneously entertaining thoughts of lavish multi-billion pound Government contracts for private prisons across the UK.

      (How best to fill the prisons? that’s another story.)

  16. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I wouldn’t trust either the Greeks or the Turks with the task of securing an EU external border, in the latter case a border advanced beyond the actual limits of the EU.

    Like the Italians the Greeks assume that illegal immigrants who arrive in their country can simply be passed through into the rest of the EU to become the responsibility of other EU member states; moreover the Greeks know that both the ECJ and the ECHR have criticised the treatment of illegal immigrants in Greece and declared that is not to be considered a “safe” country to which illegal immigrants can be returned; and Greece is a signatory of the 1951 Convention of Refugees and the crazy 1967 Protocol, without any reservations, so the Greek government can claim that this prevents them sending illegal immigrants back to Turkey when they are intercepted at sea, notwithstanding the fact that the EU Commission has said that it considers Turkey to be a “safe” country.

    As for the Turks, not only do they assume that illegal immigrants can be passed along into the EU, the Turkish government has said more than enough to make it clear that it wants to advance the cause of Islam by getting as many Muslims as possible into the EU.

    I wonder what the Turks will do about the illegal immigrants who still manage to get into Turkey despite their (nominally) strengthened border defences. I note that Turkey is a signatory state to both the original 1951 UN Convention on Refugees and the crazy 1967 Protocol to that convention, but is singled out as having an express reservation with regard to its geographical application:

    http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b73b0d63.pdf

    However I read here:

    https://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/turkey2/Turk009-10.htm

    “Turkey retains a geographic limitation to its ratification of the 1951 U.N. Convention on the Status of Refugees (“Refugee Convention”), which means that only those fleeing as a consequence of “events occurring in Europe” can be given refugee status. Regardless of any geographical limitation under the Refugee Convention, Turkey must still abide by the principle of non-refoulement (that no one may be returned to a country in which he may face persecution), which is binding in all cases. The non-refoulement obligation is one of the few articles in the Refugee convention to which reservations cannot be made. Furthermore, Turkey is party to other human rights instruments which also prohibit refoulement of persons to countries where they are at risk of torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.”

    So however much money the EU provides to Turkey, essentially as bribes, it will still be open to the Turkish government to allow untold numbers of illegal immigrants into its territory and then allow them to cross to Greece for onward dispatch.

    Meanwhile, I read it being argued today, here:

    https://euobserver.com/opinion/133440

    “No one deserves to be returned to, or stranded in, Libya.”

    Note that word “stranded”, because of course many of the illegal immigrants attempting the perilous crossing from Libya are not Libyans, they have made their way to Libya from numerous other countries in Africa and Asia.

  17. Atlas
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Haven’t we been here before – with the Emperor Hadrian and his walls around the Empire? And didn’t that work out well…

  18. stred
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    This seems to be one of the daftest EU policies of all. Firstly, suck up to a Turkish president (words about terrorists left out ed) Give him loads of Euros to cope with the problem and take his refugees in exchange for those sent back from Greece, who are not actually refugees.

    Now the idea is to help withmore cash, the week after his intelligent PM resigns and the new one may be a relation, to say nothing of the imprisoned journalists and bloggers. He will need absolutely masses of euros to erect a fence and guards around the long border from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Armenia,and Georgia and perhaps along the Black Sea coast too, as this could easily be accessed from the East. Plenty of supervision and dosh to keep the border guards from allowing ISIS products and antiquities through too.

    But to help further, the 75m Turks will have visa free access to the EU and the leading expansionists such as Eural want Turkey as a new member as soon as possible. Meanwhile the much shorter length of border with with Bulgaria has been fenced of by the Bulgarians and the Macedonians have fenced off Greece, the Hungarians have fenced off Serbia and Croatia and Austria are fencing off Italy and Serbia. And the UK has improved the fencing at Eurotunnel. But according to Boris in yeaterdays article, a British steel fence maker can’t supply fencing because of difficult trade barriers.

    But 50% of us and 3/4 of MPs still want to stay and give them more money….

  19. stred
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    It looks like another huge whack of British taxpayers money or borrowing will be going to Turkey to pay for this stupidity. Meanwhile, taxpayers may not be aware of another huge amount already being spent on another needless theoretical refugee problem. This one is to mitigate against rising sea levels. The US are at it too. Obama’s HUD (housing dept) are spending billions of $ to improve resilience to climate change, starting with an island on the Mississipi delta, which has flooded.The only problem is that the sea level hasn’t risen in the same area by anything but normal rise and land sinking on either side of the island. The reason it has flooded has to do with water management of the river.

    But the reason this affects the UK is that with the guidance of DECC, the UK is the world’s biggest contributor to, in the words of the author, spending billions to improve resilience to climate change….that isn’t presently threatened by climate change.

  20. alan jutson
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Would any politician trust the Turkish Government with their own money ?

  21. Dennis
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    It would be wonderful for 50 or so people doing all your shopping, cleaning, cooking and bringing you breakfast in bed every morning and paying you £1000 per week, tax free – such an economic benefit.

    But you have to have them living in your house/flat. Waiting a few hours every morning to use the bathroom is not much of a problem as compromise is a good thing.

    What’s not to like?

  22. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Today’s Business news headlines and articles whether they are sound or not, indicate a rising Pound and optimism and good results in the Housing Sector and healthy tailwinds; also, glad tidings and results for the future in a certain Budget airline ( a competitor to that of a Remain Campaigner )

    Commentators said prior to this that there were Brexit fears which were mirrored by a downturn in stocks and currency. Now they say that the opposite is due to “Brexit not being believed” by the ones who yesterday did believe it. Heads you win, tails you lose from the Remain Campaign and their Commentators.

    This whole Referendum Campaign has been marred by eccentric comments from the Remainiacs. Now, it would seem, they have got it into their sweet heads Brexit will not happen.
    Anyone with his financial head screwed on properly is aware that even one serious terrorist attack on mainland UK via infiltrated terrorists via the asylum-seeker or EU passport bandwagon will give a decidedly “LEAVE” result.

    So, is it a case that they have seen Aquarius entering into the star sign of Pisces and know the ongoing plans of Daesh or, they are telling lies?

    The Remainiacs plus Mr Cameron and the osborne perched on his shoulder may thank their wooden idol that moi is not leader of Daesh. Etc ed

  23. Chris
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    I think it is long overdue that Cameron is clled to account by a vote of no confidence in him by those honest eurosceptic Conservative MPs. I refer to the latest email revelations that apparently show that Cameron was conniving with big business to ensure a Remain vote while at the same time assuring Parliament that he could campaign to Leave. Jacob Rees-Mogg puts it succinctly, and is reported in the Press today, stating that misleading Parliament is a resigning matter. Several reports in the Press today, e.g.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/671075/EU-referendum-David-Cameron-resignation-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-Serco-letter-renegotiation

  24. NickW
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Both our Government and the EU are failing to understand the nature of the referendum.

    The referendum is a pressure gauge which indicates the pressure building up in the population from the EU’s sustained democratic deficit and multiple flawed policies.

    Trying to fudge the result by a stream of implausible propaganda won’t change reality; it will just delay the explosion and ensure that it causes far more damage when it inevitably occurs.

    The mood will be even worse when the electorate realise, (as they will when EU business returns to meddling and incompetent normality) that they have been conned.

    Jamming the needle on the pressure gauge won’t stop the boiler from blowing up.

    • NickW
      Posted May 17, 2016 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

      Wouldn’t it be better if everybody faced reality?

      • NickW
        Posted May 17, 2016 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

        A note for those wise business leaders who think that winning the referendum is the end of the story;

        Don’t you think that an intelligently managed Brexit and the resulting EU reforms will have less impact on your business than the inevitable chaos, disorder and destruction which will occur if things carry on a they are?

        What is happening in Greece may be coming home to you.

  25. zorro
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    All quite depressing stuff in general, but the duplicitous nature of Cast Elastic is laid bare for all to see today with regards to his low machinations to try and fix the vote and bring big business on side covertly…..

    The BBC news this evening was at its best with a young man explaining his thought processes around making a decision for the referendum. He admitted that he was leaning towards IN, but what convinced him was the ‘research’ that he had done. He stated that the UK could not survive as a ‘single island, alone in the world’ (I kid you not), doubtless unable to trade with anyone else. The second key piece of research which convinced him was his thought that he wanted to be able to travel to Europe as a tourist in the future (again, I kid you not) which, of course, he would not be able to do (probably beacuse of electric fences or machine guns on the beaches)…… Excuse me John, I need to lie down if this is the quality of research…..

    But before I do, I hope that you will join with me in celebrating the arrival of the wisdom of Lord Heseltine in the EU debate castigating Boris Johnson for his inappropriate views/behaviour in the debate and his inherent insuitability for any office, whilst of course praising David Cameron for his urbane, thoughtful, and convincing prseentation of the government’s case. This was today highlighted by suggesting that people who supported the OUT campaign were of the same view as ISIS leader Al Baghdadi and Putin, and doubtless dangerous extremists as indicated by Alan Johnson recently…. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3582763/We-need-tent-protect-storm-soaked-embattled-Jeremy-Corbyn-mocks-Labour-critics-poor-election-results-launches-party-s-pro-EU-battle-bus-pouring-rain.html

    Perhaps we should hand ourselves in at Loddon Valley police station?

    zorro

  26. Iain Gill
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Funny I was eating with a Turkish business contact tonight

    He had lots to say on this subject

    Worried about Putin and what he will do

    Worried about IS

    Worried about their countries political leader

    etc

  27. Chris
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    How dare he say this? When has he been given the right to sign away our sovereignty?

  28. Androcles
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Terrorist outrages are invariably met with the cry from politicians “they must not be allowed to change our way of life or democratic values”. The PM now wants us to consider what ISIS wants when we decide on our democracy and sovreignty!

    • Anonymous
      Posted May 18, 2016 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      Read ISIS twitter pages, they laugh and joke about how we pretend to be at war with them. Russia has been at war with ISIS, no one else.

  29. Anonymous
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    I am both disgusted and horrified by the broadcast media bias against Brexit.

    Most of all I am fearful.

    The EU has all the aparatus in place for a despot to take his seat.

  30. matthu
    Posted May 17, 2016 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Depressing headline in the DM “GM farming is creating superweeds and resistant bugs: Controversial technology has created a ‘major agricultural problem'”

    One group of crops had genes inserted into them to make them immune to chemical weedkillers like Monsanto’s Roundup or glyphosate, the theory being that farmers could then douse their crops in these chemicals, killing off the weeds but allowing the GM plants to survive. Unfortunately, many weeds subsequently developed resistance to glyphosate and became super-difficult to control as a result even growing to 7 feet tall.

    Wonder what these weeds will do to property prices once they start invading urbane areas (think about Japanese knotweed). Unfortunately, no disaster is so great that our British government cannot make it even worse.

    Successive British governments, both Labour and Conservative, have championed GM farming and pushed the EU to support and approve the crops.

  31. stred
    Posted May 18, 2016 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    The graph by UCL Centre for Research Analysis of Migration shows that after 2008 until 2011 contributions to the UK economy fell below expenditure. (sent to JR by email) Whether tax credits, which are complex, and housing benefit were included is not known. HB is probably the largest benefit in areas where house prices are high and these areas are often with highest migration.

    The graph sent showing housing affordability (Nationwide) and net migration (ONS) showed the close relationship between the two and the even closer relationship had mortgages dropped after the banking crash.

    The figure of 4m GP registrations more than even the larger NI figures is very important. It shows that either GPs are falsely claiming for a large number of ghost patients or there are far more dependents and illegals in addition to ‘short term’ migrants who actually use the NHS other services and benefits. Or it could be a mix of both.

    As Reece-Mogg of Tiverton says- deceiving the HoC is a resigning matter. Deceiving the electorate should be too. And payment for non-existent patients may be fraud or gross negligence.

  32. tick tock
    Posted May 18, 2016 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    There’s a thread on Mumsnet ( EU Section ) now about Brexit The Movie. The comments are all God, scary I didn’t know all that.

    The overwhelming majority of potential voters have no idea whatsoever about the EU.

    Sign up to some random groups and just put it out there.
    On VICE news the trendy site, the scathing review of the screening of the movie was criticised in the comments for just dissing the fat cat people who came to the showing.

    People need to know its not a Labour/Conservative thing.

  33. tick tock
    Posted May 18, 2016 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Meant to put my comment just. now in latest not yesterdays.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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