Fair migration and good facilities for new arrivals

During the first quarter of 2016,  224,000 EU migrants got jobs in the UK. Just 5000 migrants from elsewhere in the world were added to the UK workforce, whilst 185,000 British people got jobs.

David Davis MP yesterday made an important speech setting out more of the details of these numbers. He said the EU has created a Job transfer mechanism. The UK generates plenty of jobs, but many of them go to people from other EU countries. All the time the Euro austerity scheme keeps unemployment high in large parts of the Eurozone, so there will be people seeking work in the UK and Germany where there are more jobs. Lower wages and worse conditions in some of the eastern parts of the EU also drives more people to come to the UK in search of better paid work.

Over the last year to March 2016 630,000 National Insurance numbers were issued to EU citizens coming to the UK. The government says that some of these people only came for a short stay and so that does not mean there are 630,000 more EU migrants in the year. It is likely to be the case that some stayed here for less than a year, but the government does not know how many or for how long. It does means their official migration figures based on passenger surveys look too low.

The other crucial point is the impact so many people have on public services, wages and homes, even if they do not stay for as long as a year. Whilst here working people need proper housing, access to GPs, school places for their children and a range of other services. We need to expand phone networks, water supply and electricity generation. We need more reliable figures so we can plan provision better.

Out of the EU we could impose sensible controls on EU migration to match controls on non EU migration. On the Out side we don’t want to stop all migration. We want a fair system, that has the same rules for the EU and the rest of the world. It should aim to cut the numbers considerably overall, to relieve pressure on houses, wages and public services. It should welcome people of talent, people with good qualifications, people wanting to invest and build businesses here, and people wishing to study here. Our young people would like better wages and cheaper house prices and rents. The pressure of large scale migration serves to depress lower wages and raise house prices.

 

Out of the EU we will still be free to travel in Europe , study in any university or College that offers them a place and do business in Europe as we did before we joined and as non EU countries like the USA and Canada can do today from outside the EU.

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106 Comments

  1. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    “Out of the EU we could impose sensible controls”. However, if the way non EU migration is dealt with, we will not. Tell the truth. The current economic model is built around a continual inflow of wage depressing and deskilling labour.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      Indeed while preventing many high skilled non EU migrants from coming.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:34 am | Permalink

      Put me in charge and we will.

      Firstly I would hold a referendum to ask the people how many immigrants they would like to accept each year. Only UK citizens would be entitled to vote in that referendum, unlike the EU referendum, and they would be offered a range of numerical options, starting with “Zero” and going up in steps of say 10,000 a year to a final option of “Unlimited”, and that would be for gross not net immigration. Then I would look at the distribution of responses and find the median – not the mean – response, the annual rate of immigration which half the voters thought would be too high and half thought would be too low.

      Then I would set up a points based system adjusted to keep the total inflow to that median response, as far as practicable. I would not take into account the outflow of UK citizens, if they chose to leave their country, and I would not exclude those seeking asylum from the same points based immigration system. I would give notice that the UK is withdrawing from the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees and its insane 1967 Protocol, probably under the terms of those treaties but possibly with less than the prescribed notice of one year. The points system would give no extra weight to so-called EU citizenship, the same criteria would apply for those who were EU citizens and those who were not EU citizens.

      Thirdly the Act ordering that referendum would have provision for it to be repeated at regular intervals in the future, say every ten years, or sooner if the government felt that there were strong reasons for the annual limit to be varied sooner.

    • Narrow shoulders
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

      http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/andrew-green-current-migration-to-britain-is-costing-our-economy-billions-a3257546.html

      Cost of immigration in the last decade and a half is £115 billion. This is paid by you and I so that business can have cheap labour.

      • Narrow shoulders
        Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

        As referred to on this site too recently

  2. Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    There was another interesting fact from the ONS migration report issued yesterday:-

    “In 2014 13%, or 8.3 million, of the UK resident population were born outside the UK. This has risen from 9%, or 5.3 million, in 2004.”

    This means the proportion of foreign-born people living in the UK has jumped by 57% in just 10 years.

    Thank you to all reading this who donated to Facts4EU.org (http://facts4eu.org/news.shtml) yesterday. If people can continue to send out the message today, we’ll go viral and may be able to keep going.

    • Hope
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:42 am | Permalink

      JR your comment on short stayers is wrong. As the number is continually rolling that means that number of immigrants at that level is constant and those people use our public services. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Moreover, I am sure the govt would like to fudge the numbers or not have a proper way of counting people in or out the country. If we can get it right with sheep and cattle why cannot the govt get it right with people?

    • peter
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:46 am | Permalink

      you need a more prominent subscribe button on the site so people get articles emailed to them. very good site though. Also some Social Media share buttons to get articles out there

    • backofanenvelope
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:19 am | Permalink

      The government has just finished a consultation on the format of the 2021 census. Family historians are keen to re-instate the place of birth question. The civil service has decided not to include such a question. Why is that I wonder? Such a question would reveal exactly who was born here and who wasn’t.

  3. Ian Wragg
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    The problem with these new jobs is they are created to service the immigrants. I suspect that the vast majority of immigrants are a net drain on the economy and rely on taxpayer top up to give a living wage.
    Hence the more we import the bigger the welfare bill.
    To reduce this Osborne wants to limit pensioner and disabled benefits.
    We pay handsomely whatever way you look at it.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      Absolutely, there is not much information about who is coining it here however there is plenty coming from the USA. Caring for refugees is a big business opportunity. Enquiring minds might like to do a bit of googling and see how a British former politician, who moved to NYC, is busying himself lately.

    • agricola
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:18 am | Permalink

      I really cannot agree with your first sentence. If you grow asparagus you do it to sell asparagus. The fact that the only labour you can get comes from eastern Europe facilitates it’s picking and consequent sale. Look upon the asparagus as the egg, immigrant labour as the feed, and the chicken as the profit.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

      Fifty years ago I was younger and more gullible, or perhaps more trusting would be a kinder way to put it, and if a group of researchers at a good university said that they had studied the question carefully and concluded that large scale immigration into the UK was actually economically beneficial to the host population, then I would have been more inclined to accept that on face value than I am today.

      It’s not just about being older and wiser in general, it’s about having seen that the universities are riddled with academics who have a strong political bias in favour of mass immigration, and in favour of the EU, who therefore may not apply their full critical faculties to their research.

      In fact it appears that nowadays the most critical debate on the economic effects of mass immigration is not being conducted between different academics but between academics and a group outside the universities, Migration Watch UK.

      http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.41

      “Response to UCL paper on the fiscal effects of immigration to the UK”

      http://news.migrationwatch.org.uk/2016/05/17/response-to-comments-on-our-report-on-the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration

      “Response to comments on our report on the fiscal impact of immigration”

      I was particularly struck by this:

      “Doesn’t the government say that data released by HMRC only last week showed recently-arrived EU migrants paid £2.5 billion more in tax than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013/14.”

      “That may be, but it is simply nonsense to call this a net fiscal contribution. A comparison just of personal taxes paid directly to HMRC with cash benefits paid out directly by HMRC is not in any way a measure fiscal impact. The same calculation for the whole population – putting over £260 billion of income tax and national insurance against £41 billion of tax credits and child benefit – would suggest the UK is in fiscal credit to the tune of over £200 billion. On this basis the Chancellor would not have a deficit to deal with.”

      And yet what did Miliband say on Question Time last night?

      “We know from official figures that people who come here from the European Union contribute about two and half billion pounds more in terms of taxes than they claim in benefits.”

      I would add that even there was a net total benefit of that magnitude, £2.5 billion a year, which there obviously isn’t, it would work out as about 80 pence a week for each member of the host population – another one of those very small messes of pottage for which we are being expected to give up our birthright.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted May 28, 2016 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

        Well said. That link is now on its way to Andrew Neil. Let’s see if he uses it, or will the BBC choose to go on ignoring an inconvenient truth.

        Tad

    • libertarian
      Posted May 28, 2016 at 9:41 am | Permalink

      Ian Wragg

      “The problem with these new jobs is they are created to service the immigrants”

      Total and utter cobblers , businesses employ people to do the work that needs doing not to invent jobs.

  4. bigneil
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    There is something VERY wrong when ex soldiers who have lost limbs are left homeless – -while at the same time illegals who have committed a criminal act AND deliberately destroyed any form of ID ( to avoid deportation ) are put in hotels and waited on.

    Absolutely NO-ONE in parliament can defend it.

    Why does a potential terrorist with an uncheckable sob story get let in and looked after when our own soldiers are treated with such contempt?

    Cameron will send our soldiers to their deaths – -yet welcome (sone? Ed)who could be their killers. Some of them will inevitably be OUR killers too.

    Etc ed
    I hope CMD will be happy with his reward from the EU for our destruction.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:49 am | Permalink

      Now you know how the establishment views their service. I wanna know why the bleeding hearts are not offering to take in a homeless vet to one of their many mansions?

    • DaveM
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:24 am | Permalink

      Not even Cameron anymore.

      Finally a major newspaper has opened the box regarding EU ambitions towards foreign policy and defence. Of course Cameron has wheeled out his new favourite line; “the UK retains a veto….etc” although we all know he won’t use it in case his chums in Brussels are mean to him.

      Having been in the military for 25 years I’m used to working in alliances, but a foreign HQ run by civil servants is altogether different. Especially when those civil servants come from countries with almost unbeatable records of complete and utter ineptitude in terms of military and foreign policy.

      Quite frankly I’d rather have foreign policy and military strategy commanded by the inmates of Battersea Dogs’ Home.

      • Anonymous
        Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

        If Britain votes Remain there won’t be a veto or any sort of treaty opt out.

        Remain will be a mandate from the people for ‘ever closer union’ per the Treaty of Rome.

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    Of course we leavers do not want to stop all migration. This is another lie, put about by the remain camp and the BBC usually with undertones of you leavers are racists. We want good migration and not bad, net financial liability, migrations. Is this too difficult for the remain camp to follow?

    Also the government know full well which NI numbers are active. The passenger survey method is an absurd way to measure migration bound to underestimate it, doubless why it was chosen. They just choose not to tell us the truth.

    It is the EU migration all good rest all bad, the current system, that is clearly visible racist.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:10 am | Permalink

      The other deception, repeated again by Ed Miliband last night on Question Time was the “They pay X more in taxes than they get in benefits” perhaps true but so what. Benefits does not include any of the cost of their schools, the NHS, the roads, housing, defence, police, prisons and all the other many bloated costs of our hugely inefficient government Government. Most are not even coming close to covering their share of government costs as the majority are low pay migrants.

      The sole Green MP Caroline Lucas (endless invited to talk complete drivel and bogus science/engineering on the BBC) even said having working in the EU, there is more democracy in the EU than there is at Westminster. Just how deluded one be?

      • Lifelogic
        Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:42 am | Permalink

        Does it never occur to Caroline Lucas that, as a or even “the” leading UK green she might usefully acquire at least a basic understanding of the engineering, economic and physics of power production and the lack of the recent predicted warming.

        She simply has not got a clue on the subjects. At least she is rather more pleasant than the departing leader. But neither have a clue, the laws of physics are unlikely to change for them.

        If I were asked to deliver a speech on say Beowulf I would decline or at least mug up a bit.

      • Dame Rita Webb
        Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

        Ed’s got “A” levels in maths, extra maths and physics. He is taking the mick if says they make a net contribution to the UK. How he manages to conclude that one group, which suffers 70% unemployment here, makes a positive contribution beats me.

    • Bob
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:28 am | Permalink

      @lifelogic

      “the BBC usually with undertones of you leavers are racists”

      I watched some TV last evening, including the EU debate on BBC. As usual the audience had been carefully sellected to produce the right “balance”. There were gasps of amazment led by Alex Salmond when UKIP’s Diane James suggested that we should prioritise English speaking doctors when recruiting from the EU.

      My theory about tattoos and piercings was confirmed by the staggering level of ignorance exhibited by some of the audience members. Victoria Derbyshire deftly prevented Liam Fox from dispelling any of the various Brexit myths raised by the students.

      The BBC has failed miserably in it’s Charter obligations to educate and inform, they have instead become a schill for the EU.

      • Bob
        Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:53 am | Permalink

        ps. Michael Portillo’s takedown of Nick Clegg on Andrew Neils “This Week” program was the highlight of the evening’s viewing, especially having watched Ed Miliband and Caroline Lucas’ “Statler & Waldorf” act on QT, while Dimbleby again demonstrated an unwillingness allow David Davis to finish a sentence.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      The front page of the Sun has Cameron summed accurately today.

      Reduced to the tens of thousands, no if no buts – without any Brexit. How can anyone utter such blatant lies with a straight face. The man is as bad as Mrs May with her – we have control of our borders drivel.

      Surely the public will not fall for this tripe will they?

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

      Never seem to read about how obvious it is that a contributory factor to the levels of IMmigration (and good letter in Torygraph today on that, may our host please note) is how easy it is for the rest of the World to see from our throwaway approach to Foreign Aid that we have money to burn just to feed Cameron’s vanity.

  6. Antisthenes
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    The free movement of labour is an economically sound policy as long as those who move freely have skills that are in short supply. Other people coming to the UK as refugees, asylum seekers and for economic reasons are the problem. Coupled with our welfare system it becomes an intractable problem. It puts a tremendous strain on our infrastructure and resources. So a controlled and a well managed immigrant and welfare system has to be in place something that is impossible whilst in the EU.

    Unfortunately exacerbating the problem is many of the immigrants clamouring to come to the UK already in the rest of Europe or on their way to it are culturally quite different. In small numbers probably able to be coped with but they are coming in droves and that cannot be absorbed and integrated into our own. It is also something that we cannot afford. Our NHS, education system and the like are already under financial strain. If immigrants coming here are not reduced then they will eventually break.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

      Its really a lack of common sense amongst the metro elite. How on earth do they expect someone who comes from a Third World economy to fit into a First World one, when the citizens of the latter are having to run faster just to keep up? On the flip side it must be so bloody obvious. Just like if I relocated into the Third World, could not speak the local language and found my skills as a bank teller were of no use to anyone.

  7. Anonymous
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    How the hell (in this age of computerisation) is our information on immigration based on asking a smattering of passengers their intentions ?

    • JoeSoap
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:48 am | Permalink

      Indeed, and on people entering the country.
      We don’t know whether or not these people can support themselves, nor for how long.
      We don’t track these people via a simple computer programme which knows whether they have left when they said they would.
      The answer these days is pretty straightforward-no need for visas but we need to demand that visitors have biometric passports, know that they have the resources to look after themselves during that stay by a simple hook onto their bank accounts (similar to what HMRC does for our own citizens), then monitor their stay and fine them for unauthorised over-stay (in the way this government demands taxes from native British).

    • alan jutson
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:01 am | Permalink

      Anonymous

      Agree absolutely.

      The government has absolutely no idea of how many are here, because they are not all counted and recorded, we hear from John in his past posts that if they come for less than a year they are not counted at all, hence the possible disparity with the National Insurance Number count.

      Add to the above Illegals who will always exist to some degree, and no one really has any idea about these numbers.

      Seems like the whole so called recording system is unfit for purpose like so many government schemes.

      Remember those who do register for a national insurance number and stay for less than a year can (once they have that number) can also register for a for an NHS European Insurance card which lasts for 5 years.
      Thus visit us for a few weeks every 5 years and get NHS treatment back in your homeland for 5 years by saying you are on holiday from the UK.

      Perhaps this disparity in claims and numbers on NHS treatment should be looked at as well.

    • zorro
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Good grief, somehow I don’t think that they would want a system in place which could accurately track migration in and out. How would they explain themselves?

      Far better to persevere with a load of old tut…. e.g. passenger survey which interviews a minuscule sample of arrivals who may or may not answer truthfully (if they can be bothered) on a totally unscientific basis. Now there is some ‘independent’ plausible deniability 😉 from our representative, thoughtful and astute government…….

      zorro

    • Edward2
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      It is deliberate.
      The actual figures are so huge they do not want us to know the real numbers.

    • formula57
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      Because systems are designed to give the answers wanted by those intially asking the questions. If a proper count were undertaken, this government would be obliged to reveal the true numbers.

    • CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      You’re not implying someone or something is deliberately not collecting embarrassing and Prime Minister- changing information are you?

    • Chris
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

      Exactly. It is quite incredible, and actually quite disgraceful. Negligent is not too strong a word for this government, I think.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

      Well they start by deciding what sort of result they want to get for political reasons, then they choose the method most likely to get the figures they want. It is essentially using voters tax to con these same voters & taxpayers.

      I think they call it “a vital public service”.

  8. agricola
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    Your article , somewhat unusually misses the point today. In the last recorded year:-

    Immigration to UK was 630,000

    Emigration from the UK was 297,000

    Net Immigration to UK was 333,000

    National Insurance Numbers Issued 630,000

    Conclusion.
    There are 630,00 foreign individuals here in the UK who will impact on Education, NHS, Social Services, and Housing.
    The 297,000 who left may have comprised a number who for various reasons decided to return whence they came. It also includes well qualified young people in search of better prospects abroad, plus of course the retired. These latter two groups were likely to be financially self sufficient and little burden on the state. Those coming in are a much greater potential burden on the state.
    It is the indigenous population, via their taxes, that fund it all, and then suffer when they require houses, their children’s education, the NHS, and pensions on which they can live, having contributed all their lives.

    Few will resent EU nationals from wishing to improve their lives, and their work ethic contributes much in labour intensive agriculture. The blame lies squarely with the EU for failing them in their home countries and being happy with their economic migration. The duplicity of this conservative government, who came to power stating that they would reduce immigration to tens of thousands knowing that without the slightest doubt they could not, is highlighted. Free movement is a tenet of the EU to which this government remain determined to belong. Their promises on immigration were their first big lie.

  9. Alan
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    Of course if we had joined the euro we could have made sure that the euro was devalued and so avoided the high unemployment in southern Europe, so that the whole continent’s economy would have become more active and fewer people would have wanted to come here.

    Yet another own goal by the Eurosceptics, who then try to blame the EU for the “problems” they have caused.

    • zorro
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

      Oh yes, I am sure that Germany would have agreed to that!!!

      zorro

  10. Edward2
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Freedom of movement and the right to work and live in any member State may have worked well with 6 member nations having roughly the same standards of living.
    But now with 27 nations of very different standards of living it is creating the problems we see today.
    Unless it is a deliberate policy by the European Commission to create one nation where the standard of living is similar throught the EU.

  11. zorro
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    The thing that annoys me about this debate is when people say ‘Oh, but we might need a visa to travel or it may be difficult to travel in the future…’

    Like US tourists to Europe? It is quite insane in the way this argument is presented. You see the fear in the faces of young people that they won’t be able to travel easily in Europe….. Complete and utter nonsense, but they are so mind controlled that there can be no other way than the EU…. When 40 years ago, we travelled perfectly freely around Europe apart from the Iron Curtain countries…… Oh I see, do people think that the EU countries might become like the old Soviet bloc? EUSSR….. Hoisted by their own petard perhaps?

    zorro

  12. Jerry
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    “During the first quarter of 2016, 224,000 EU migrants got jobs in the UK. Just 5000 migrants from elsewhere in the world were added to the UK workforce, whilst 185,000 British people got jobs.”

    Of course the real story here is not EU migration as such but the fact that only a mere 185,000 unemployed UK people either applied for or were deemed suitable for those other 229,000 jobs that were available – remind me what the first quarter JSA claimant figures were?..

    I see that Farmers and Growers are still publicly seeking answers as to who will plant and harvest their crops, and thus supply the retail outlets, should there be a Brexit and changes to the current immigration policies. No wonder we are still greeted by poor opinion polls with regards support for a decisive Brexit result when the ‘Vote Leave’ groups only ever bang one side of the migration drum – can someone from the Brexit camp please tell us who they intend to ensure that these lower paid NMW type jobs will be filled, even more so when some of these manual jobs require long hours and the likely hood of working away from home, possibly in hostel or mobile type accommodation.

    • Anonymous
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

      Jerry – Yes. Two issues beloved of the Left:

      – mass immigration

      – welfare dependency

      And the crappy comprehensive education system.

      • Jerry
        Posted May 28, 2016 at 7:00 am | Permalink

        @Anonymous; Funny, I seem to recall that one Mrs Thatcher (as Minister for Education and after) created/converted more comprehensive schools than any of her Labour opposite numbers ever did [1]! That the culture of “welfare dependency” only really kicked in during the 1980s.

        @Edward2; “They will be able to employ those [immigrants] they need.”

        They (the employers) already do, because they can’t get UK citizens to do the work! But that seems to be a big problem with a vocal minority though…

        As I’ve asked in the past, why can a migrant travel 1,000 miles across several countries and then find work in the UK but someone from the UK can’t travel 10 miles or even 10 minutes down the road to do the same?

        [1] in the same way as Mrs Castle closed more railway lines and stations than any of her Conservative opposites, but apparently Labour was all for the Railways, as the Tories were apparently all for Grammar Schools….

        • Edward2
          Posted May 28, 2016 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

          They don’t need to try to employ others Jerry
          When there is a queue outside of eager young minimum wagers just arrived.

          • Jerry
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 8:02 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; So you want prices to rise so these employers can pay above market rates, but would wholesale and retail customers simply not import/buy cheaper products from aboard, thus ensuring that the employers we are talking about would soon go out of business. Sorry @Edward2, you really do seem stuck in a time warp of the sort of Trade Union inspired economics of the 1970s that ended up with the UK going cap-in-hand to the IMF!

            Then of course, as the NMW is higher than JSA these JSA claimants would be better off. Remember that most if not all people working for the NMW are eligible for the same housing and other benefits as they were on JSA.

            Until people like you stop giving excuses to basically bone lazy but physically fit unemployed British people many employers will have no opinion than to carry on employing those who are prepared to do the work, at the market rate – economic migrants.

          • Edward2
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

            How unpleasant your rant is.
            Describing those poor people trying to compete with millions of new arrivals full of youth vigour and ambition as bone lazy.
            They might be stuck in a deprived area hundreds of miles away from where available employment is.
            A new low from you Jerry.

          • Jerry
            Posted May 30, 2016 at 6:31 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; Not as unsavoury and nasty as blaming migrants for all the ills of the British. Why can’t these people move, after all -as you once pointed out some migrants are living in accommodation supplied by the employers, sometimes having left their wife and kids in their own country not just another county… Oh and I was comparing like with like, such as a 18 to 30 year old physically fit person from the UK with a a 18 to 30 year old physically fit migrant, I do wish you would read what I say and not what you think or hoped I said.

            I guess the truth just hurts you, your bile is a new low from you @Edward2, never mind the fact that our continual rants and scapegoat’s do far more damage to the Brexit cause that my truth ever will.

          • Edward2
            Posted May 30, 2016 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

            Keep digging

    • Edward2
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

      They will be able to employ those they need.
      Do you see millions being deported from the UK post Brexit Jerry?
      Do you think it is likely that will happen here in the UK or elsewhere in the EU?

  13. a-tracy
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    “Over the last year to March 2016 630,000 National Insurance numbers were issued to EU citizens coming to the UK.” Was that figure from one tax year? What % of this number actually paid in enough NI to cover just their own healthcare (i.e. registration with a GP for a year/hospital admittance or don’t we keep any figures?).

    How on earth can you plan school places with any certainty if you don’t know how long people intend to stay? Let’s say you add 10 places in a school in Year 1 what if by Year 3 all 10 have left, how does the school re-fill large gaps in later years? British people may move their children around occasionally but if the government is correct and so many only have short stays planning is impossible and do we know how many from this number from last year have brought children with them? Is there no tie up between the NI and tax system and benefit systems?

    I’m sick of hearing this the EU gave us holidays etc. this is ridiculous the Working Time Directive gives 20 days holiday the British government awarded 28. We already had Statutory Maternity Pay with extra leave promised to get elected by the British government. Why are our Tory and Labour Remainers claiming they don’t do anything and just get told what to do by the EU they’ve been telling us for years that’s not the case! There is no level playing field in Europe, we all have different minimum wages, if I remember correctly Germany doesn’t have a NMW.

    Over regulation and over control of business is strangulating France and they want to bring it here to make us less competitive.

  14. Iain Gill
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    I am a natural out voter. I must say all this stuff about giving the money we will save in EU subscriptions to the NHS rather makes me think again. Why would I vote to stop wasting money in one direction only to see it wasted in another?
    The NHS is the worst part of the British economy, to threaten to give it more money to waste is ridiculous. I need proper reform handing buying power over to patients.

    • Jerry
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

      @Iaiin Gill; Threatening the NHS will simply drive even many of those on the political right to vote “Remain”, in the same way as many on the left believe that only the EU can protect their union/working rights, unlike people like you Iain the rest of us understand that the NHS per se is not the problem but the political meddling. The NHS is thus non-negotiable.

      As for handing (what you call “buying”) power over to patients, that could be done within the current or reformed NI funded NHS, if only it was funded properly, there is no reason why patients should not be able to choose who carries out their treatment, when and where -indeed even what treatment/drugs they receive.

  15. Chris
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    People like Marianne, in this wonderful Iain Dale interview, will certainly give Brexit a boost. She speaks about a range of issues, and very clearly about immigration.
    She was present at the Osborne Cameron Project Fear presentation at B and Q, Eastleigh). This makes for very encouraging listening. What a sensible, clear headed individual, unlike our Chancellor who, as she said, does not appear to live in the real world.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/05/iain-dale-the-woman-who-had-a-chat-with-osborne-and-then-decided-to-vote-leave-and-rang-me-to-say-so.html

  16. Know-dice
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Off topic 🙁

    “Brexit ‘serious risk to growth’ says G7”

    Are we THAT important?

    If we are then not only should we get a better deal from the EU, but also there will only be a risk to growth if the various governments don’t do their jobs properly.

    So, Cameron it’s up to you to say NOW what plans you have in place to handle a LEAVE vote. It’s the uncertainty that’s going to cause problems.

  17. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    One major flaw of the Remaindian rhetoric is if immigrants are so good for us and our economy then why are not the other 27 member states of the EU crying FOUL?

    Why does not Romania say “We want investment in our own country.You’re taking away our most gifted workers, our youth, our university graduates, those with greatest aspiration and energy. They go work in the UK, spend their money in the UK, pay their taxes in the UK, run buses for the British, run the trains, sweep their floors, nurse them in British hospitals when they are sick. Why don’t the British do a decent days work themselves? Why should our people be their slaves? We want our people living and working in our beloved Romania. Their home. Their heart.”

    But Romania doesn’t complain does it unless Hahahahahaha is a new form of bellyaching.

  18. They Work for Us?
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    All true and we need to get the message out that remaining will bring more people whose standard of living at home in the parent EU country (or from elsewhere ) is so low that migration to the UK brings unheard of (for them) riches. If we leave we do need to put backbone into our border controls and tip the balance to not letting people without a visa or who we do not want actually “land” and enter the application to stay and appeals procedure. If half our migrants come from non EU countries why are we not doing this now to reduce that source of immigration?
    There is no absolute right for anyone to be able to “land” and enter a foreign country.

    I see Cameron has pulled a last dirty fast one with the “leave the EU and your Pensions will suffer” pre purdah scam. Doubtless there will be more.

    Finally, the French petrol strike and the general willingness of the French to resist unwanted measures leads obliquely to a question. Why is it that our dairy farmers are living hand to mouth when the French dairy farmers are not. If they were they would be blockking motorways with tractors and spraying the town hall steps with manure. Why does the “CAP” work for them but not for us? If we remain, hopefully not, why can’t we do the same for our farmers?

  19. Bert Young
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    The figures published yesterday of nett migration are very concerning ; we cannot possibly absorb numbers of this sort without serious problems to the running of this country . No matter how good the material is of the balloon , keep blowing it up will cause it to burst – we must be near that stage now . Brokenshire when questioned was still making adjectival statements of what our intentions are ; he did not say that enough was enough and a stop was now in place .

    The politics of intent have characterised Cameron while he has been Prime Minister ; he has not the background of running anything successfully while in charge . Rumours now circulate of a revolt – I hope they are true and bring about his end .

  20. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    A solitary policeman showed me a much photocopied sheet of passport-sized faces…migrants or asylum seekers. He wished to know if I had seen any or all of them in my vicinity. One by one I said “I haven’t seen him”. He then said it isn’t a man, it’s a woman”
    You see the photocopies were so bad that it was almost impossible to make out facial characteristics.
    Our police must be underfunded.
    One temporary migrant around the same time ( sorry to be so vague but they are human beings and have a right to privacy ) confided in me that she lived in a room of a house and their were 14 others in similar rooms in a knocked-through group of old terraced houses.
    She said: “The police are always coming.” “They come at even 3 o’clock in the morning” “At all times in the night”
    “Why?”
    “Because they arrest people”
    “Why? ”
    “Because they have done something wrong”
    ” Then what happens?”
    “Oh then more migrants come to live”
    “Which nationalities? ”
    “Different ones”

    Our police must be underfunded.
    I must say I have no reason to doubt the word of my informant. I am not a journalist perhaps paying for a story. She told me matter-of-factly as part of a greater conversation.I speak with many migrants and asylum seekers. The story is not unusual.

    The local media town and region has not featured any such stories, not that I’ve come across. I’ve not heard the Police indicating except in larger formal reports to government in earshot of the Home Secretary that even a reasonable photocopying machine hanging about doing nothing in her Constituency Office might come in handy..and more nightshift pay for Police Officers. Oh and body-armour at least to cover knife-attacks

  21. Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Quite so, John. It’s about controlling immigration and treating all applicants on a case by case basis regardless of where they come from.

    Is it true that Norway has to agree to open borders in order to get access to the single market- in which case doesn’t that weaken the case for Leave?

  22. Chris S
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    “It does means their official migration figures based on passenger surveys look too low.”

    Quite an understatement !

    The NI numbers tell us everything : the number of EU migrants arriving to live and work here is clearly under-reported and the true number must be at the very least double the headline number. Even if a substantial proportion do stay less than a year ( and that’s very doubtful ), They still need housing, use the NHS, the roads and every other type of infrastructure.

    In addition, CMD is clearly going to do nothing whatsoever to reduce net migration to below 100,000 otherwise he would have dealt with the half of the net figure from outside the EU he could control if he was so inclined.

    So, another case of us being deliberately lied to.

    It is not racist to say that we want to retain whatever of our cultural identity is left after the Blair, Brown and Cameron years of open door migration.

    The current migration figures disguise the fact that we are experiencing a profound change in the make up of our population every year. The higher birthrate amongst migrants is clearly going to see this change accelerate unless we get to grips with the numbers arriving.

    Nigel Farage once said he would accept a slightly smaller rate of growth if we could reduce migration and take back control of our borders.

    If we were ever given the choice, there would be very few people would not take that option.

  23. graham1946
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Last night on the tv there was an hour long debate on the EU with an audience of students. Young people all seem very relaxed about immigration and the shortage of jobs (presumably until they graduate and end up in a coffee shop) and they see the world very differently from us old’uns. It’s their world so its mostly up to them.

    Whilst the politicians say that the EU is not growing properly and is failing, they don’t ask people to think why the immigrants are coming. ‘They want to work’ they say and there is the nub. The EU is failing and cannot provide jobs for its young. Why would we want to be shackled to this corpse? but as long as they can get cheap mobile phone calls abroad and holidays in Europe, that seems to be enough for some of the ‘intelligent’ students.

  24. lojolondon
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    John, you are exactly correct – these people somehow obtained NI numbers. So even if they came here just temporarily (have you ever visited another country and applied for any type of ‘welfare card’?? Would they have issued one?? I very much doubt it!)

    The point is, exactly as you say – if these people were temporary, which I very much doubt – it doesn’t matter, they now have full access to our health services, will be able to apply for housing and other benefits. Our politicians covered this up so fast, and our supine MSM did not give this even the slightest scrutiny – collusion.

  25. Mitchel
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Immigration is just one of the issues Peter Oborne takes the Tory leadership to task over in a terrific,excoriating article in the new edition of The Spectator-“Brexit,George Osborne and the art of post-factual politics”

    His attack on Osborne’s misuse of the Treasury civil servants and the latter’s fabrication of figures is particularly venomous and totally justified.

  26. Atlas
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    I think the right to settle in the UK should be separated from just working in the UK.

    P.S. Why doesn’t the Leave side press Remain on the question of what the EU is going to look like in not too distant future? It is a valid uncertainty.

  27. rose
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    “Out of the EU we could impose sensible controls on EU migration to match controls on non EU migration. ”

    What is the figure for non-EU migration? If it is still bigger than the figure for EU migration, why is that?

  28. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    JR, I hope you will permit me to repeat a comment that I made on the last thread as I think it shows how the nonsense from the Remainders should be dealt with, and that is not on the terms that they try dictate. It is relevant to this topic of immigration because the gravest flaw in the current EEA Agreement is that is does not permit a member state to restrict immigration from other member states as a matter of long term policy. It does offer more scope for short term “safeguarding” measures, but our problem is not so much a sudden unexpected influx but a continuous and excessive inflow.

    On Question Time last night, when pressed by Miliband to say what country we would be like if we left the EU – Canada? Albania? Norway? Switzerland? – David Davis gave the correct reply: “We will be like Great Britain”.

    From 47:30 in here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07ctqxv/question-time-26052016

    and note the response from the audience.

    One would think that Norway has always had its present arrangement with the EU rather than it being an arrangement actively devised in 1992, and there is no possibility of inventing any new arrangement for the UK.

    Necessity was the mother of invention then, after the Norwegian people had voted against joining the EU, and necessity will still be the mother of invention after the British people have voted to leave the EU.

    It is simply not credible that lawyers have exhausted their imaginations and can now see no new alternatives to any of the existing treaty arrangements, and where there is a will there will always be a way to sort out the legalities.

  29. PollsRrubbish
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Good on you David Davis. Up the ex working class grammar school boys ( and girls )

  30. Ken Moore
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    We keep be told that mass immigration is a ‘net benefit’ to the economy.
    How can this be when many migrants are paid the minimum wage so pay a small amount of tax and national insurance?. Also many are in receipt of top ups in the form of family credit and working tax credit. Much of the money earned leaves the country when it is sent back home.
    Any benefit is also balanced by the need to impose an additional drag on the productive economy to pay for the need to expand the provision of public services.

    Could John Redwood confirm that the figures cooked up by the treasury do not include housing benefit paid to migrants ?

  31. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Another silly failure by a leading Leave campaigner, I’m afraid:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7177770/Doomsday-prediction-of-catastrophic-staff-shortages-in-NHS-and-other-public-services-if-Britain-votes-to-leave-EU.html

    “Doomsday prediction of ‘catastrophic’ staff shortages in NHS and other public services if Britain votes to leave EU”

    “The pro-EU camp issued the latest doomsday prediction as a report found almost nine in 10 EU nationals working in Britain would not meet current visa rules under Brexit.

    Campaigners pushing for a remain vote in June’s In-Out referendum argued that could put the futures of almost all the 240,000 Europeans working in the public sector at risk.

    They pointed to official figures showing 130,000 EU nationals work in health and social care while more than 40,000 work in education.”

    And Daniel Hannan lets Sun readers believe that they would all be thrown out if we leave the EU, presumably because that is what the nasty Brexit supporters would want and the government would be incapable of doing anything different.

  32. Big D
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Any chance of a grown up discussion of what the UK should look like in 2030. I do find it strange that the Green Party is all for the EU & unfettered immigration, given the effects on the environment etc of all the housebuilding & infrastructure development needed to support this. Given the increasing speed of developments in AI & robotics which will render many jobs (both blue & white collar) redundant (& I see that McDonalds is looking into using robots to make its products), can we not look at a stronger, more productive & value added economy, rather than continue to ‘grow’ the economy by relying on property development/house price inflation & a constant flow of Eastern Europeans serving coffee & filling sandwiches (and including the alternative economy of drugs & prostitution in the figures). How about calling a halt to this, and focusing on equipping our young people for the future with proper technical skills & apprenticeships (instead of doing Mickey Mouse degrees at a cost of £40k) ?

  33. Margaret
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    I am not in agreement with taking highly qualified people from other countries when our own highly qualified people cannot get jobs/ posts. In fact it is just another way of losing control. As foreigners take highly paid posts ,they do not invite Brits into other posts which they have responsibility for : they invite their own .Why are we so wet behind the ears not to understand that this objective ,fair approach which we have been brought up to believe is right does not apply to other cultures where nepotism and market stall barter takes precedent.

  34. Margaret
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    I have just sent in my OUT of the EU vote by post. phew !

  35. Lifelogic
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Of course as you say:- Out of the EU we will still be free to travel in Europe , study in any university or College that offers them a place and do business in Europe as we did before we joined and as non EU countries like the USA and Canada can do today from outside the EU.

    We will also be able to charge the market rate to student who want to study in the UK instead of having to give them free education or soft loans.

    • Jerry
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      @LL; Travelling in Europe is not the same as living in another EU country as if it is your own, which is what our current EU membership allows.

      • Edward2
        Posted May 28, 2016 at 8:51 am | Permalink

        Many people from the UK used to live and work in Europe before the EU and many UK people live and work in other countries around the world today.
        And many non EU people come here to live and work.

        This will carry on if we vote leave.

        • Jerry
          Posted May 28, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

          @Edward2; “Many people from the UK used to live and work in Europe before the EU and many UK people live and work in other countries around the world today.”

          Indeed but outside of (and before) the EU that is/was a privilege and not a right under EU law.

          “This will carry on if we vote leave.”

          That is not for you or the Brexit groups to say, it is for the destination countries to say, that is the point, just as you wish to limit migrants to the UK other countries might wish to put limits and/or obstacles in the way of migration by UK citizens.

          Sorry @Edward2 but you really are coming over as someone who subscribes to the ‘Do as we say, not as we wish to do ourselves” notion of international cooperation!

          • Richard Fedeski
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 9:00 am | Permalink

            Privilege?
            No one told me that when I travelled and worked abroad in Europe and elsewhere prior to the EUs free for all.
            Tourism and companies who need staff and Universities who need students will not stand for stupid restrictions of movement.
            If we adopted a sensible system of control like most independent nations do life will still go on as before.
            But with an ability to reject criminals and those who are in bad health and those who have no job or any money to support themselves.
            Most rights are enshrined in UN charters as well as human rights legislation.
            It is precisely because of a desire for mutually beneficial international cooperation that things will change little after Brexit.
            PS dont be sorry Jerry, just say what you want to.

          • Edward2
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

            I agree with all you say Richard

          • Jerry
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

            @Richard Fedeski; Of course it’s a privilege for citizens of one sovereign nation to enter another, that is why you need a passport and not just your local Library ticket or some other domestic ID to prove your address etc, that is why the UK has immigration checks, as do most countries, and as did European countries before the EU freedom of movement policy and as they still have for non ‘EU citizens’. Hence why non EU citizens have to fill in landing cards, even on inter-EU country flights, as they had to do before the post 9/11 security issues. Also if there was already a UN right of entry to the country of your choosing why did the EU have to bother enshrining such a right for EU citizens wishing to enter another EU member country into EU law?

            Just because you never noticed or understood those pre-EEC/EU (membership) customs procedures doesn’t mean there were non (or wouldn’t be again upon a Brexit).

          • Patrick Geddes
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

            You remind me of that Month Python sketch Jerry where people paid a fee for a defined amount of time and then went into room for an argument.
            You seem to pedantically argue that white is black or vice versa just for the fun of contradicting everyone else.

    • rose
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

      The Stay campaign is still making out we will need visas to go abroad after Brexit. Everyone seems to believe this, not just young people. How can we get this very damaging lie corrected?

      • Jerry
        Posted May 28, 2016 at 7:12 am | Permalink

        @rose; “How can we get this very damaging lie corrected?”

        We can’t, unless there is a visa waver scheme they are quite correct! At best all we can suggest that there would be a visa waver scheme between the UK and the EU member countries. Although I doubt we should attempt to second guess the terms, after all it might be on the same terms as the Swiss have…

        • rose
          Posted May 28, 2016 at 9:52 am | Permalink

          The only countries I have had to get a visa to visit were Russia and Mongolia. We didn’t have visas for the continent before we joined the EU. (Not Eastern Europe obviously as they were behind the iron curtain then.)

        • Edward2
          Posted May 28, 2016 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

          There never were any visas needed to travel in Europe even before the EU
          You just showed your passport in most.
          And filled in an immigration card on arrival in some European countries.

          • Jerry
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 8:22 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; @rose; You two really do need to learn what is a Right and what is a Privilege under any given law, the fact is the Remain group were correct in pointing out that by leaving the EU we would lose the Right to live, work and travel freely within the EU.

            Remain were stating a fact, you two are stating your wishful beliefs, and yes I agree, you are probably correct but we (as wanting a Brexit) can not state it as a given fact.

          • Edward2
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

            Do you really think that Europe will impose visa travel restrictions onto all UK citizens?
            You are suggesting the EU will become like USSR the last nearby country to restrict travel.
            Ridiculous .

          • Jerry
            Posted May 29, 2016 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; How many more times! 🙁

            Yes they could, even more so if provoked and/or push came to shove, tick-for-tack [1]! It would be up to them, just as it will be up to the UK as a sovereign nation to decide our immigration polices.

            You seem to object to the prospect that other sovereign nations, or collectively as the EU, might decide to impose immigration checks and restrictions in the same way as some wanting a Brexit for the UK wish to do upon leaving the EU, and if they do it would be their sovereign right so just as it will be ours.

            [1] I read that Gibraltar is worried that the Spanish might close the boarder, in the wake of any Brexit.

  36. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Many people in the Leave Campaign are unbelievers and when they go to sleep at night Father EU pulled by a bunch of Remaindians will not bring them presents.

    Yes, naughty Leave Campaigners often doubt Father EU actually exists. Where does he miraculously get all his gifts to give to people? Who pays for them? They appear out of thin air as his Remaindians will tell you between bites and slurps of arctic moss.The truth is, Father EU has a workshop of little state EU workers who descend on the UK and selfishly make and bake for our sake.
    They do get paid but because of the cute little workers they are , they pay us tax on their tiny wages, and spend all the rest of their wages buying everything in our shops with the profit going to us and the goods’taxes also going to us and then after they have worked themselves half to death, get their tiny remaining wages taking note the profit on their work goes to us, , the rent they pay goes to us and then …and here is where Father EU works his real miracle, he tells his little EU state helpers all the pretty baubles, apples, chocolate, sweeties and toys like smartphones to put all the remaining presents we do not want or use and, then pulled by Remaindians still chewing their cud, delivers them to all the EU small states and tries to sell them …..to people who are so poor they have had to send their favourite sons and daughters to UK to help Father EU. But obviously they are poor country people and their children have spent all their earned money in the UK and paid taxes there, and rent. So they have no money at all.

    But Father EU is magic.Somehow these poor people can afford to buy the goods made by their children on a special Father EU credit card called QE which always does very nicely thank you until after Father EUs Special Christmas when everyone wakes up unutterably poor and the only things left to eat are the Remaindians and Father EU.

  37. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Mr Osborne has stated several times there will be recession.He owns he has no idea how it will come, where and when it will start, where it will develop, its extent , its duration in terms of months or years and the solution for getting out of it. A true Keynesian, clueless.

    The US economy is floating on hot air of tremendous debt. It’s no secret. The truth of it is beyond personal opinion. Their unemployment rate does not take account of millions who have given up on looking for work. Home ownership has massively declined. Rents rising. Car purchase debt again stretched almost to the limit with sub-prime lending which, was always illegal here in the UK.
    To their north, Canadian household debt has increased. Canadian wealth spouting out of the ground with oil and gas or under Canadian feet in mineral/commodity wealth making any bankers balance of payments look miraculous, painting he and his dog as a geniuses, has fallen on hard times.

    The really big proverbial sneeze about to come from North America will have serious consequences for the UK in or out of the EU.
    But one can guess though when things get tough, unemployment here increases, house prices and rents decline because of North American contagious pneumonia, just who the EU will expect to buoy up the rest of Europe and, Osborne will blame our necessary charity on World Recession and not in part on EU bureaucratic lack of preparedness.

  38. Margaret
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Osbourne said that voting to leave will affect the stability of our pensions. Do you agree John?

    Reply. No! How can Brexit harm pensions. it’s nonsense.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

      I think they suggested that inflation (due to devaluation of the £) would hurt pensioners. But we have the inflation guarantee for state pensions do we not? Anyway the pound would surely strengthen. This as the fundamentals would clearly be very much stronger post Brexit. No fees, freedom, democracy, nimble government, a bonfire of red tape, energy at half price, Osborne gone ….. what is not to like?

      • graham1946
        Posted May 28, 2016 at 9:20 am | Permalink

        Pensions guarantee? Only until 2020, LL.

        There are already siren calls to hammer the pensioners who are seen as a burden on society, even though we have the lowest pensions in the civilised world and have contributed for the best part of 50 years to this country. Of course we have to pay those who have contributed nothing at all and just come in uninvited, so thats all understandable. Cameron’s ‘negotiation’ over benefits for incomers won’t last five minutes if we elect to stay in.

    • hefner
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      Well, nonsense, how can JR and LL be so sure? Surely can they really project the exchange rate and the state of the market for the next 5-10-15-20 years and guarantee that the pension funds will continue to be as successful (!) as they are now.

      In other words, in this particular instance, I would propose that they are just talking short and decisive but rubbish all the same.

    • Ken Moore
      Posted May 28, 2016 at 11:15 am | Permalink

      So Mr Osborne is a liar who is deliberately misleading the public. Steve Hilton said as much that the senior politicians know they are talking rubbish but assume the voters want moronic simple to understand messages even if they are factually wrong.

      So aren’t stronger words needed by you Mr Redwood – please stop beating around the bush – go on JR you have nothing to lose by breaking ranks but you will go down in history as a national hero.

      I can see the headlines now….’Furious senior Tory Mp calls for an end to ‘industrial scale political lying’.

      – Criticism of Cameron for being ‘two faced’
      – Calls Osborne a ‘master political liar’
      – Tells Cameron ‘you don’t own the system..stop treating the public like idiots’ in bombshell speech’.

  39. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Zero immigration until we figure out what’s going on? Apart from those entering because of internationally agreed law concerning the right to have a spouse hailing from a different country.
    But remembering and guarding against what happened in San Bernardino where the female chief terrorist of the two entered the USA on a ” Fiancée Visa”
    The typical example for not having at least a temporary ban on migrants is the legendary “Indian Software Engineer” exampled by Mr Farage who we should embrace with open arms because, possibly, we all have in our homes a requirement for a resident Indian Software Engineer. Irrespective that my own computer does require such a being ( the computer shop always sees me coming), if the Engineer is that good in his field he can stay in India, a very pleasant place indeed, and thank goodness he is skilled in a field of employment where he can work from home perhaps with greater ease than anyone else.

    If the UK needs continually immigration then perhaps there is a case for something to be put in the water for persons of child rearing age.

  40. Denis Cooper
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Off-topic, I’ve just been reading this article:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/27/brexit-would-slam-the-brakes-on-the-uks-hugely-successful-car-in/

    “Brexit would slam the brakes on the UK’s hugely successful car industry”

    and I find there are 9 references to “export” but only 2 to “import”, and those are to the importation of components rather than finished vehicles.

    So anyone reading that article might take away the impression that the EU Single Market is a great, and curiously one-sided, help to our car manufacturers and underpins a massively profitable trade with our European neighbours.

    And the last part is certainly true, except that the trade is not massively profitable for us but rather for our neighbours, year after year, as shown in Figure 2 here:

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/abs/annual-business-survey/car-production/sty-car.html

    In 2014 the value of exports to the rest of the EU was about £11 billion, while the value of imports from the rest of the EU was about £31 billion, deficit £20 billion.

    In fact we ended up a deficit of only £5 billion through the £15 billion surplus with the rest of the world outside the EU.

  41. never stop trying
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    brexit the movie 672k views.
    Kashmir Led Z 14 million views
    aren’t there any marketing men out there

  42. Richard1
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    If Mr Messrs Cameron & Osborne think Brexit would in fact be as bad as they now say – “immoral”, potentially likely to produce war, certain to produce recession and 100,000s newly unemployed it would seem to be their clear – moral – duty to ignore the result of a Leave vote and Work for a majority in the Commons to remain, perhaps attempting a new negotiation. This after all is what the French govt did when the population rejected the EU constitution. I can’t see how any minister or MP could vote to leave the EU whatever the result of the referendum if they think it would be as the govt says. No one should ever by definition do something which they believe to be immoral.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted May 27, 2016 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

      Actually the French government did not ignore the rejection of the EU constitution in the referendum, but after a delay they went along with Merkel’s plan to decant almost all of its legal contents into her “Reform Treaty”, later the Lisbon Treaty.

  43. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Someone has to empty the bins.

    Forgotten in the triumphalism, remarkably and ignorantly, on one US neo-governmental website citing the pros of Syrian and indeed other immigration, I read,… was that the more intelligent, aspirational, high IQ , RICH,, Syrians and others were the only ones capable of venturing onto inflatables in the Med and that The West should in effect, Bank the genetics.

    Unfortunately, in this day and age, a very common problem of all societies East and West is that the persons in relative power who have got to their position apart from who they know or who they share a bed with even temporarily and via acceptable bought education which, frankly in realistic and psychological modus operandi ( contrary to public perception ) can make a clown into a king., think that they are somehow superior.
    ,Yes, it is possible to educate , train a (word deleted ed)into much more, given the resources and trained teachers ( proper ones ). Look at Boris. :-)…… Love him actually.

    We as a nation need to take stock of our people. The Mother of HM The Queen is famed for believing absolutely, genuinely,” that each in our domain has his and her place. Some would call her a communist. I call Her the Mother of HM The Queen. British.
    We need no immigration. We are it.

  44. Anon
    Posted May 27, 2016 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    The problem is our leaders Junker, Merkel ,Tusk et al are our unelected elite. Cameron et al cant even admit this to themselves let alone us.

    EU migrants are fleeing the relative and temporary respite of the UK, that is until the bills need paying and we are levelled down in not a good way.

    I hope history records them accurately.

    Exiting is in our long term and medium short term benefit. Big undemocratic technocratic government is what you will get if you remain and changing it short of collapse is moot.

    A stitch in time saves nine and we are nigh 40 years late.

  45. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted May 28, 2016 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    The UK already has more than enough people. Let us get the economic objective right. It is to increase income PER CAPITA. So perhaps zero permanent immigration, with short term residence permits should apply for the next 20 years.

    Following on from that, we need a fast Brexit, not a slow one.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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