Thank you Mrs Merkel

Mrs Merkel’s intervention in the EU referendum debate was the one I wanted. There’s  nothing like a bossy German telling us what to do to mobilise the Leave vote.

Her intervention was at one with many of the absurd predictions and threats that characterise so much of the Remain campaign.  She told us we will get a better deal by being in the room, meaning we have to be a member to be able to do things we want with the rest of the EU. She clearly has no sense of irony.

The UK has just tried out the proposition that if you are in the EU you can get a sympathetic hearing for your needs. So how did Mr Cameron get on?

He wanted to control free movement to hit his immigration targets. He was told by Germany not to even ask for change on that, so he didn’t. The solemn and popular promise to the UK voters to control immigration does not matter to the EU.

He wanted to stop us having to pay Child Benefit t to children who do not live in our country. He was told we still have to in the EU.

He wanted to stop paying in work benefits to recently arrived EU migrants, asking them to work for four years before being entitled to such money. He was told this was impossible, and offered a modest change for a transitional period only.

He wanted to stop the movement to ever closer political union. He was told there might be some Treaty change to that effect in future, but in the meantime the UK daily loses powers to the EU as they merrily continue issuing more directives, regulations and court cases pursuing their objective of more centralised power.

As you will see, all those demands which were roundly rejected  could all be achieved by leaving the EU.

I remember in the run up to the formation of the Euro I was asked to various lunches, dinners and meetings with powerful Germans. They had heard of my books, articles and campaign around the country to keep us out of the Euro, and thought they could persuade me to change my mind.

The conversations always started pleasantly enough. They thought I might be intelligent enough to see how right they were about the need for the single market to have a single currency and how it would  be best for business. As the event wore on and I doggedly held to my forecast that the Euro would create either boom or bust or both  in various countries as the Exchange Rate mechanism had done, their tone would change. They would then seek to bully me, telling me I was wrong. The City they said would be at risk and outside the Euro the UK would have no influence.

I feel this Merkel intervention is in the same spirit. Deja vu all over again.

 

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115 Comments

  1. zorro
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose….. ?

    They can’t resist it

    zorro

    • Hope
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:01 am | Permalink

      You pause Cameron entered his alleged negotiations in good faith. Set against that is his letters to Serco requesting businesses campaigned to remain. He dropped his main points from his Bloomberg speech which many of you Tories thought hailed his intention! He has given away our taxes hand over fist while claiming he would battle for Britain and not pay the sums. Cutting Immigration was always a charade as we learn from David Laws. His veto that never was because he did not fulfil the aecond part namely stopping Eurozone countries using EU institutions. He had a chance in 2010 to alter the Lisbon Treaty, he decided not to. He allowed Merkel’s fiscal pact for nothing in return. Worse of all he stood silently by foreign leaders while they made threats to our country. JR, the list is truly endless. All you had was his word. No one in their right mind would belwive word he says. This was obvious from early 2010 when he used the Lib Dumbs as an excuse for his treachery and deceit.

      Merkel has been speaking to French papers for a long time about the true intentions of the EUdirection, Five Presidents report was not written for fun it has a purpose and meaning. Junker and Tusk turning up at G7 and other meetings of world leaders. Some of the Eurozone countries would not represented at such meetings.

  2. Mark B
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Good morning, and thank you for ‘eventually’ putting up my post from yesterday. I only had one to begin with and, despite others having numerous posts, something you said a while ago you would stop, I had to wait until the debate moved on. Oh well.

    The expression I have often heard is; “If you are not at the table, you are on the menu.” The question is though, which table are we talking about ? Are we talking the little EU table of just 28, and mostly poor countries who, once they have agreed, finally, on something the EU goes off and sits around another table ? This ‘other’ table, or tables, the ones in which we do not sit around are the ‘world tables’. Ones like the G8 or the WTO. Even the UN Security Council Table is one in which we have to defer to EU diktat as we are part of the, EU Common Foreign Policy. It’s just like so much of the EU, it just never gets spoken about.

    Then there are all the other regulatory bodies around the world, who have their own set of tables to sit around. The ones in which where the rules made even the EU has to obey.

    We are only allowed by both the political class, the media and the establishment to see only a fraction of the world by which we are governed. The more you peel away the endless layers them more you come to realise that another layer, called the EU, is totally unnecessary.

    And finally. Greece is around ALL the EU tables. Unlike the UK, it sits around the Euro table. Despite the so called great advantage it is clear to see that no one is even remotely listening to it.

    Sorry for the length. Hope it gets posted on time this time eh ?

    😉

    • agricola
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:33 am | Permalink

      While accepting that these are very busy times, I would agree with you on the subject of arbitrary publishing of postings and the multiple publishing of other contributors. Yesterdays contribution didn’t contain any censorable words such as Muslim or Islam, which seem to cause the same sort of reaction that the GCHQ computer might have to the word Semtex. One begins to think that glib one liners are more welcome than well thought out contributions.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

      @Mark B; “Even the UN Security Council Table is one in which we have to defer to EU diktat as we are part of the, EU Common Foreign Policy. It’s just like so much of the EU, it just never gets spoken about.”

      It never gets spoken about because if it did it would be a lie!

      The UK not only has an independent vote at the UN but is also one of the founding European permanent members, whilst the “EU” doesn’t even have observer status – even the Vatican City trumps the EU at that…

  3. Know-Dice
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    I notice that WTO directors (Roberto Azevêdo & Pascal Lamy) are trying to “dis” the Leave campaign…

    • oldtimer
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:37 am | Permalink

      …and Mrs Yellen of the Fed.

    • JoeSoap
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:17 am | Permalink

      Worth watching the newsnight interview in which the latter insists we will import more and export less with our lower Pound outside the EU. The logic of this curious position wasn’t explained.

      • Know-dice
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:29 am | Permalink

        Saw it – Very strange.

        My conclusion was that the higher echelons of the WTO don’t want trade agreements to succeed, in fact they get in the way of parties trying to get agreement.

        The suggestion was if you go in to negotiations without tariffs in place you have nothing to negotiate with.

        I would see it the other way around. Carrot before stick.

        Sorry a bit off topic.

  4. Roy Grainger
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    The Remain crowd are having trouble explaining how immigration from the EU can be controlled if we are inside the EU. The answer should be easy. The only way to do it is to make life so unpleasant here that EU nationals don’t want to come and live here – that is literally the only way. The side effect of this would be to make life unpleasant for the people who already live here because the EU do not allow measures to be imposed on immigrants which are different to those imposed on residents. I assume they don’t want to say it. I assume actually they don’t want to control immigration from the EU at all.

    • Ken Moore
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:36 am | Permalink

      Indeed, in nature habitats can only support so much wildlife – disease and famine are the control mechanisms.
      People here wont be starving but things will become very unpleasant. Sooner or later a ‘perfect storm’ of a nasty recession and loss of confidence, a falling pound , a collapse of key essential services and perhaps civil disobedience as it dawns on people what they have lost will happen. These things could happen post brexit but they will be much less likely if immigration is controlled to sustainable numbers.
      I suspect in this low growth age we are in what passes for the ‘boom’ part of the economic cycle…..when the crash happens the welfare bills are going to be crippling..

      This is the real ‘leap into the dark’ that the IN side are promoting.

  5. Jerry
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    “Mrs Merkel’s intervention in the EU referendum debate was the one I wanted. There’s nothing like a bossy German telling us what to do to mobilise the Leave vote.”

    …and there is nothing like a snide anti German comment to have hoards of people distancing themselves from Vote Leave. This is 2016, if you have not noticed, not 1916 or 1946…

    Oh and as if Mrs T wasn’t bossy, but then she wasn’t German to that was OK then… I don’t think Mrs Merkel has ‘handbagged’ anyone yet either.

    It’s called standing up for a/. for your countries interests, b/. stranding up for what you believe in, unlike so many UK politicos at least Merkel -as was Mrs T- is a sign post and not a weathervane.

    After Brexit we are still going to have to deal with what you call “bossy” Germans (and French, and Spanish, and all the other EU countries, no one has to trade with us, even less so when there is the whole world out their for them just as it will be for the UK.

    Was Cameron silly to try and renegotiate, of course, not because of any intransigence on the part of the EU or Mrs Merkel etc. but because it has been obvious since Mrs T’s time that the UK joined a Football club in 1973 when really we wanted to play Rugby and if there has been any intransigence it has been on the part of the UK in expecting the rest to play Rugby!

    • Duyfken
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      From what I can make of this comment – the English is somewhat contorted (I like the image of “hoards of people”), the conclusion is as we could agree upon in that we do not wish to play the same game or indeed any game at all. The logical consequence is that we should collect our ball and leave the field.

    • Know-dice
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:51 am | Permalink

      @Jerry:

      I thought the British people voted on joining a Football Club and ended up with a “pig in a poke”.

      I understand that Ted Heath knew what was being sold to us, but didn’t tell us at the time. Mrs T was also “hoodwinked” into continuing with the EU and its various treaties.

    • bluedog
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:58 am | Permalink

      Don’t you mean ‘hordes’ rather than ‘hoards’ Jerry? The EU certainly hoards hordes of illegal immigrants, but that may not be what you mean….

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 10:54 am | Permalink

      My sentiments exactly John. It’s not just Mrs Merkel though is it? What with Obama, Hollande, Cameron and just about every has-been on the planet lecturing us, it is one big turn off. Do we really need the likes of Hollande, with his country in such a mess telling us that we are a tin pot nation who could not manage on their own? I don’t think so!! I would say they are more interested in what won’t be coming to the table in the form of prop ups if we leave. This whole debate is about our country and the will of the people. God knows the French all let the whole world know when they aren’t happy. Well, it’s our turn now and, no, we don’t need some bossy German telling us what we should do. It seems to me that the Germans are actually running the whole EU. What they say, everyone must do. Well, enough is enough. The 23rd can’t come soon enough.

    • forthurst
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      “no one has to trade with us”

      That depends on what they are in business for. Taking out the UK contribution to EU GDP would reduce its growth rate well below its paltry 0.6% making it even more difficult to raise the taxes to bail out the Greeks and fund the CAP. It is not a credible prospect.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

        @forthurst; What is not credible in Germany etc. selling very well made cars for example to the RotW, why are other EU countries and the UK their only market, please do explain. OK, so it will not be so easy for them but the market is out their, it better be as those wanting Brexit expect the UK to sell into such RotW markets too!

    • Pud
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:50 am | Permalink

      Did Cameron try to renegotiate? Beforehand he announced he wanted to stay in the EU, thus weakening his bargaining position. He then asked for very little and was satisfied with less.

    • Bob
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

      @Jerry

      “no one has to trade with us”

      of course they don’t, but they will, German manufacturers would not easily give up market share in the UK, not would the French, Spanish or Italian exporters, it’s called “self interest”,

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

      Jerry I hold an MA from a German university. I regularly holiday in Germany too. You do not understand these people. Try doing business with them. Its a constant battle with their belief that you are trying to rip them off. Even if you want to buy their product or service. The bureaucracy and paperwork is something else too. Try and get Germans to talk about themselves. Then you will find out even they do not think they are particularly nice people and that has nothing to do with WW2 either.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 11:20 am | Permalink

        @DRW; You make a very good case for “Remain”!…

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

      Jerry – “Oh and as if Mrs T wasn’t bossy, but then she wasn’t German to that was OK then”

      No. But she was British and she was elected by the British people. A distinction that is important.

      Dr Redwood is right. A ‘bossy German’ will mobilise those already inclined to vote against the EU. Those not inclined to vote against the EU yet won’t be reading this blog.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 11:28 am | Permalink

        @Anonymous; Thanks for making my point!

        As for elections, more people did not vote for this government than did, and if we there had been PR in 2015 you would have kissed goodbye to this referendum, even if UKIP had got two or three extra MPs out of it.

        A “Bossy” politico of any flavour will mobilise people of the opposite opinion, hence why Mr Farage has had to be side lined, hence why BSE are complaining about the the Electoral Commissions website crashing last night after Mr Farage had mobilised the BSE votes… Nationality is irrelevant.

  6. Dame Rita Webb
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    Its nice to see Dave, Harriet and the liberal one, being photo’d at a Remain gig yesterday, in front of a load of cars produced by a German owned company. Patriots everyone one of them.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      @DRW; Well I suppose the three politicos could have been photographed in front of TVR’s or Aston Martins…

      • Edward2
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

        Or Nissan, Toyota, Jaguar, Land Rover, Range Rover, Mini, Rolls Royce, AC, Ariel, Bentley, Bristol, Caparo, Caterham, Bowler, Ginetta, Lister, Lotus, McLaren, MG, Morgan, Noble, Prodrive, Ultima,Westfield etc

        • Jerry
          Posted June 8, 2016 at 11:39 am | Permalink

          @Edward2; Some of those marques are no longer made, of those that are, most are not now UK owned, and when was Nissan and Toyota ever British owned – oh and those politicos were posed in front of Minis! Thanks for making mine and @DRW’s point in just one comment…

          • Edward2
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

            You are very concerned with ownership Jerry
            Overr concerned some might say.
            Manufacturing like trading in general is a world wide business and UK people own businesses abroad just as foreign investors own UK companies.
            It also important that theses companies, whoever owns them, are based in the UK employing hundreds of thousands of UK people in well paid skilled careers.
            And tjey are investing billions in the UK and spending billions more with suppliers on the UK
            Mini is made here in the UK by UK people.
            Sad that you sneer at these fine UK products.
            Presumably you would restrict who owns businesses in the UK whilst expecting other nations to still allow us to invest in their countries.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

            @Edwwrd2; No, you are under concerned, were do you think investment decision are being made, London or some other world city, were are the profits banked eventually, London or some other world city.

            Oh and what do you not understand, yes these foreign owned companies are spending billions more with suppliers here in the UK but so would have UK owned companies, were the hell did you think BMC, Hillman or any of the rest of the one time UK car industry bought supplies from, planet Mars?!

            Why do you think Birmingham went into shock at the collapse of the PVH in the mid 2005 (and BL and BMC before them), it wasn’t just for the fate of Longbridge and its workforce but all the suppliers that relied directly on the company.

            As for sneering at British products etc, you are the one who is doing that, with your constant message of “oh look, silly old British industry again, can’t make a dammed thing unless it’s owned by a foreigner or two. With your sort of economic outlook @Edward why would anyone bother voting Brexit on the 23rd, might as well vote for the USoE, other than loosing the possibility of strong right wing governments what difference will it make – you might not like this but your views on economics make you not so different to Blair, Brown, Cameron and Osborne, even the TUC…

      • libertarian
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

        Jerry

        Or with a McLaren or a Jaguar or a Range Rover etc etc

        Another fact that doesnt get airing is UK Car manufacturing output per automotive worker is 10.8 cars per worker. Germany is now below the EU average at 7.0 cars per worker … Romania produces 2.6 cars per worker

        • Jerry
          Posted June 8, 2016 at 11:44 am | Permalink

          @libertarian; See my reply to a very similar point from @Edward2. Oh and just who OWNS the UK Car manufacturing output?

          You too have made mine and @DRW’s point for us, thanks!….

          • Edward2
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

            Jerry is a little englander Libertarian
            He only wants UK businesses to be owned by UK people.
            But expects other nations to allow us to purchase and invest in businesses in their countries.
            I expect if he checked his pension fund or details of any shares or unit trusts or investment bonds he might own he will find that they invest in companies all over the world.
            Presumably Jerry feels football clubs and other sports clubs should only be owned by UK people and only be allowed to have UK players too.

          • libertarian
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

            Jerry

            The state of Qatar owns a large slice of VW . Daimler Benz is part owned by Kuwait , Renault, Nissan and Institutional investors ( i.e. banks and pension funds) BMW is owned 39% by investors from USA, UK, Non German European and Ireland

            What is this obsession with nationalities of publicly traded companies? And what is your point?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

            @Edward; Yes sure Edward, a German company (for example) is going to close a German factory before one elsewhere, same with French, Japanese, US companies etc.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; Oh and as for football, indeed if UK clubs could only employ UK players then our four national football teams just might have some more European and World class (first-team) players to call up – far to many of our best domestic players end up playing against us at the national level!

            But never mind, the earnings from the international TV rights etc, so that foreigners can watch their national players in action during the UK’s domestic season, is far more important – to the shareholders and pension fund…

            Try taking the economic long view, not the quick buck.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 8, 2016 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

            Or take a world view.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 9, 2016 at 6:20 am | Permalink

            @libertarian; You still don’t get it, the point is were decisions are being made (were the boardroom is), a German company will make decisions in Germany and most likely in Germany’s best interests first, British companies will make them in Britain and most likely for Britian’s best interests first. Who the shareholders are is irrelevant, they just want the company to pay the best dividend, they will wish to see the most marginal factory shut, not the one that causes the least domestic social and political strife.

            Oh and not a very good idea to try and cite VW, you do realise who owns 20% of the voting rights, do you really think that VW would close a factory in Lower Saxony if they could close one in another country…

            @Edward2; Well if we need to take the “international view” then best we remain in the EU then, at a stroke that’s 27 countries taken notice of at once, and many more by way of ‘one-stop’ trade deals etc! Also as you obviously think UK can not survive without international and European support that is another reason to remain. Thanks for clarifying my thoughts, so Vote Remain it will be then!

            Sorry, unlike you Edward (and @libertarian), I’m backing Britain, not our international manufacturing competitors, just like Germans back Germany, the French back France etc. I hope you don’t play Test Cricket Edward, as you seem to delight in causing your team mates to be run-out, all in the name of ‘internationalism’.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 10, 2016 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

            The 27 are just a tiny minority of world economies.
            The big successful ones are not in the EU.
            We need to focus on the whole world not just the EU for future prosperity.

      • R
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 6:30 am | Permalink

        ” Hoards”of minis will do Jerry.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      Exactly right! Why they couldn’t be at a factory that produced something British is beyond me. I noted Harriet had a dig at Cameron about the NHS. I was speaking to someone who used to work in the NHS and she said much of the problem was the closing of wards and beds while the town was getting bigger by the day. More people and less beds. More immigration and less beds too.

  7. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    I hear some people saying that we should stay in the EU and work for “reform”, and I wonder where they have been for the past year. And I hear Cameron saying we should stay in the “reformed” EU he has already won for us and I wonder how he can have the sheer brass neck. But then this is a man who had no scruples about pretending that once a treaty came into force it immediately ceased to exist as a treaty.

    I have twice heard that (words left out ed) Owen Jones at the Guardian claiming that we have just had proof that the EU can be reformed, because “people power” is now preventing the EU from going ahead with TTIP. He doesn’t say how the EU treaties have been changed, “reformed”, as a consequence of that popular opposition – which is in fact confined to a very small vocal minority – or even how that exercise of “people power” has brought about any changes to EU secondary legislation.

    If you want “reform” of the EU then Chancellor Merkel is your woman to do that, but it will not necessarily be the kind of “reform” that you would want. If you want almost all the legal contents of a treaty which has been agreed by politicians but then rejected by “people power” in two countries carefully decanted into a new “Reform Treaty”, she can do that for you, and she can make sure that it is then imposed across the EU.

  8. alan jutson
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    The sight of our Prime Minister going around the EU to beg for some crumbs sickened me.

    Our once great Nation (still is in some respects) reduced to such an act in trying to obtain such little gain from those Countries who have less power than us in the World, who have less trading power than us in the World, who’s political systems are far less democratic than ours, makes us look hugely weaker than we really are.

    Perhaps some Countries may find it difficult to survive outside the EU, but we are not one of them, we are one of but two Countries who actually pay into this organisation, year in year out, with vast sums of our taxpayer money so that 26 others can take out.

    Time for us to stand tall and simply leave them to it, let the experiment continue, but without us and our money.

    As the EU gets larger our voting power and influence gets smaller, simples.

  9. oldtimer
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    OT:
    http://www.cityam.com/242581/the-brexit-debate-misses-the-point-the-eu-is-completely-irrelevant-to-the-uks-success-in-a-multipolar-world

    Useful contribution by John Hulsman which, in all probability, will pass unnoticed and unregarded..

  10. JJE
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Deja vu, not vue.

  11. NickW
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    My daughter tells me that the youth zeitgeist is to vote Remain for fear of what the Conservatives will do if we vote to leave. The Unions basically have the same message.

    The counter is to explain that what Parliament does, Parliament can undo or change, if our electorate so wishes; what the EU does we can neither influence nor change; ever. Workers rights mean nothing if you are unemployed. How exactly has the EU served the interests of the young in Greece?

    If my memory serves me correctly, it was in any event Labour who introduced tuition fees; a reminder might be due.

    As far as democratic principles are concerned, Governments are like socks. It matters less what colour they are, and more that they are changed regularly.

    The EU is a perfect example of what goes wrong when a Government cannot be changed; policy errors become entrenched and consequences multiply like rabbits.

    • a-tracy
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:11 am | Permalink

      You’re right about the youth Nick, my three are wavering.

      The Conservatives have been in power now for several years, did they overturn any extra sugar coated holiday leave, maternity leave pay and provisions – NO! Of course they didn’t. In fact they introduced Age discrimination legislation, flexible working legislation to benefit UK employees.

      It was Labour that introduced a tax on students learning. George Osborne however did ensure that all current 22 year olds and younger pay the graduate tax (student loan) for life with no hope of ever repaying it (moving the loan up to £27,000 to £36,000 for fees alone and messing with the interest) – FOR ENGLISH STUDENTS ONLY – repayable at 9%! on top of 20% tax, 12% NI and 3% NEST. God forbid they want to go on and do a masters they need another loan, repayable at the same time as their undergraduate loan, at an extra 6% over £21,000 which he has also frozen (fiscal drag). It is WRONG to only affect English students, when many of the smaller nations studying for free will take the advantage of English jobs with their degrees (often studied at English Universities for free) and have no graduate tax they can then afford to take lower paid jobs in England and be better off.

      These students now who believe the EU free movement is great, immigrants aren’t taking our type of jobs and homes, soon wake up when they start paying for the extra homes required, the extra tax credits, the extra social service costs, out of their 56% net left overs through high cost private home rentals, ever increasing council tax, VAT on more products, every fee, fine, toll and tax they can squeeze out of us – but by then it’s too late. When they’ve no hope of getting a social start home in high employment areas, when they can’t get their children in schools they wanted to, when they suddenly start needing to see a GP and can’t get an appointment any more because they’ve all gone at 0830, when hospital waiting lists are long and people waiting in A&E explode.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:54 am | Permalink

      @NickW; “The EU is a perfect example of what goes wrong when a Government cannot be changed”

      Yes, and so was the 1979-97 Tory government for many, OK so the cause was different but the effect was the same, and that is why your daughter is correct in saying that many will vote Remain simply because they fear what the the (right-wing of the) Conservatives will do if the UK votes to leave – even more so now, when many think the Labour Party have made the same mistake as they did in 1980 when they elected Mr Foot as their leader.

      The Vote Leave message badly needs input from the left, to quell such fears.

      • a-tracy
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

        No the Conservatives need to tell of the detail of all the employment rights they gave during the last two parliaments and not allow Labour to dominate employment regulations. There’s plenty of it Jerry from:
        Age Discrimination Legislation
        Living Wage
        From 30 June 2014 every employee has the statutory right to request flexible working after 26 weeks employment service.
        Shared parental leave
        Age of child for pl raised to 18 years of age
        Setting up NEST pensions with Employer contributions to match

        • Jerry
          Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

          @a-tracy; You think a Labour supporter/voter is going to believe it, coming from a Tory, that is why they need to hear the Brexit message from the left, not a Tory party political election broadcast!

          • a-tracy
            Posted June 9, 2016 at 9:05 am | Permalink

            Yes, people listen to me.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 9, 2016 at 11:08 am | Permalink

            @a-tracy; But you do not speak to the whole of your town, never mind county or country. Stop trying to make this an election, the right-wing will loose if that happens, Brexit needs 51%, not 34% of the vote as in a FPTP election…

            Reply This is neither a right wing nor a left wing cause. This is the cause of democracy itself, where right left and centre unite to say we want a system based on the sovereignty of the UK voters and their right to throw out the people who make their laws and impose their taxes if they cease to please, and to choose better ones.

          • a-tracy
            Posted June 9, 2016 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

            Your question was do I think a Labour supporter/voter is going to believe it, coming from a Tory.

            My answer stands plenty of Labour voters believe me. However, I also concede that Kate Hoey has just done a good job on C4 news even though John Snow tried to shut her up. But I am also aware that Labour supporters may believe the Labour politicians making out that ALL of our employment laws will be abolished if we leave with the Conservatives in charge which is a lie and utter nonsense, and the Conservatives need to make sure people remember what rights they have given them in the past, it’s not only the Labour Party that improves workers perks as well as pay packets and security and I get sick of hearing the Labour Party making this a ‘party political broadcast’ unquestioned and allowed to get away with it!

            I’d also add that employers that didn’t give some of these rights before still don’t because they just used freelancers, the numbers of whom have gone up 38% in the past six years. There are just as many in the EU.

    • Peter Davies
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

      People fail to realize that things like workers rights orginate from the ILO, the EU being a mere middle man

    • acorn
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

      Give my best regards to your daughter, she is wise beyond her years. I agree with the zeitgeist, others are waking up the damage Conservative trans-national neo-liberalism continues to do, solely for the benefit of the 1%.

      The techies at the IMF have been revolting against the IMF management for some while now, the following is an example. Alas, the IMF management, takes its instructions from the US State Dept, as does the World Bank and several US based NGOs.

      Another neo-liberal stalwart is having second thoughts about classical, mainstream, “New Keynesian” economics. The dominant theory that came in with the Reagan / Thatcher era; and which the last eight years have proved to be nonsense. I am not expecting a road to Damascus conversion anytime soon; but it’s a start.

      Modern Money Theory (MMT), is “Post Keynesian” economics. It is not actually based on Keynes, but that will be a post Brexit story. But definitely, all young and smart sons and daughters of the current zeitgeist, should read “Modern Money Theory: A Primer on Macroeconomics for Sovereign Monetary Systems” by Randy Wray.

      As I have said before, Conservative / Osborne neo-liberal, New Keynesian DSGE model inspired Austerity, will not be compatible with Brexit. A zero budget deficit will seriously reduce the spending power in the economy; and, subsequently, reduce “credit” creation at commercial banks; at exactly the time the country will need it most.

    • Dame Rita Webb
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

      The only “remain” poster I have seen is in the window of a student flat in Newcastle and thats it. There does not seem to be any enthusiasm amongst the students of Jesmond. I live in an “old Labour” constituency. The locals still stand up and sing the national anthem at events and get their kids christened, whether they are believers or not. Here its a different story, there “leave” posters everywhere. Unless Dave brings out Labour’s well oiled postal voting machine, the latest polls are correct in predicting that the voters want an exit from the EU

  12. Lifelogic
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    Indeed. Cameron’s deal is clearly totally worthless, but why can’t Cameron see that this non deal is not remotely sufficient? Cameron has, once again, backed the wrong horse. The man is simply not a Conservative. He is essentially just another Heath, Major, LibDem type. A big government, EUloving, greencrap pushing, fake equality pushing, high tax borrow and waste, spin doctor.

    How did he imagine that he could defend his, essentially racist, policy of open door immigration to all from the EU, while making absurd “no if no buts” promises to control it? Let’s hope that Merkel’s intervention produces the decisive leave vote we need to benefit the economy and restore UK democracy and sensible nimble government acting in the interests of UK voters.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:34 am | Permalink

      I see that the Labour postman, on the remain side, keeps saying we do not have open borders with the EU. This as they have to flash their passports at someone before being waved through – as indeed do Brittish people.

      Then perhaps signing on or popping into A&E.

      He clearly thinks voters are even dafter than he is. Migration on this level clearly visible depresses wages and puts huge pressure on hospitals, roads, the police, the NHS, schools and housing and much else.

  13. Lifelogic
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    I see that William Hague in the Telegraph make the very silly point that the Australians, with their points based system, take more immigrants as a proportion than we do. So what? No one is saying the UK points system will be the same as their one William, the UK needs and their position is rather different. The point is the system will allow in the good and needed immigrants but not the net liability or unneeded ones. It will be designed in the interests of the U.K. for a change.

    The more I ponder John Major’s extraordinary intervention and his absurd attacks on Boris and the NHS the more odd it seems. Is he not happy with burying the party for 3+ terms? Now he seems to want’s to bury them yet again and inflict Corbyn’s Venezuella agenda on the nation. Why on earth did he this very silly man ever join the Conservatives let alone become leader?

    • Know-dice
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

      The Lib Dems were posting that one as well. Not really comparing like for like.

      Population density (people per sq. km of land area)
      2011-2015
      Australia – 3
      UK – 267
      Germany – 232
      France – 121
      Holland – 501 !!!

    • bluedog
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

      Hague’s comparison is dishonest. Australia is a sovereign nation, unlike the UK. If the Australians use their points system to accept more migrants per capita than the UK it is because the chose to do so. The UK has to accept whatever comes from the EU. It is extraordinary that the British government is so in thrall to the EU and so enfeebled that it cannot control its borders.

  14. mick
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Just been reading about what the mp`s will do to keep us in a single market when we vote for OUT
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3627618/Pro-EU-MPs-plot-guerilla-war-BLOCK-Brexit-rules-immigration-trade-voters-decide-quit-EU.html
    Do it if you like but you had better be ready for the devastation that would follow if you don`t listen to the people the likes not seen for 4 centurys

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      As I’ve been pointing out for three years, ever since its initial incarnation as the Wharton Private Members’ Bill:

      http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/europeanunionreferendum.html

      the referendum Act is silent on what will ensue from our vote to leave the EU.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

        Indeed, what will surely ensue is another “renegotiation” and another referendum – we should also reject that deal.

        There is no reason for anyone at all to vote “remain” in the first referendum, a better deal will follow as might follows day.

        They will not let the UK escape that easily.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

        Dear Denis–But our host has always said in answer and in a tone almost of puzzlement that “Out means Out”. Best I can see, given that in our Constitution, as they say, Referenda have so little meaning it’s about time we changed our Constitution. Changing gear, I just watched Peter Lilley arguing convincingly that the worst case of our operating according to WTO rules merely adds an average 2.5 % in tariffs in to the EU and that that in comparison with the liberation of leaving is negligible. Exchange rates go up and down like that in a day. In any event not so bad if our reliance on the EU goes down a bit–that alone is half our problem.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

          I’ve just submitted something similar on the next thread!

    • Jerry
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:59 am | Permalink

      @mick; You mean they will get voted out of their jobs at the next election, you don’t need to go hunting the history books for that, and certainly not back four hundred years – or were you suggesting that the plebs would become even less democratic than MP’s might?!

    • Jagman84
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      Non-EU countries paricipate in the single market so why would we have to leave it, post-Brexit? This is the big lie that needs to be rebutted by the leave campaign. Even paying similar ‘fees’ as currently, the freedom to broker trade deals worldwide would far outweigh this. The added Brexit bonus is our sovereignty restored!

  15. Chris
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    The ever increasing demands on our money from the EU was highlighted yesterday in the campaign. One example of this is the Commission plan to raise 60 billion euros to “solve” the migrant crisis. Contributions will apparently come partly from Member States. Indeed. Article in Breitbart London today and apparently also in FT.

    “….A new ‘partnership framework’ to address the ongoing migrant crisis in Europe, using visa liberalisation and trade with non-European Union (EU) countries to help lessen the flow of migrants, has been proposed by the European Commission.
    The Commission’s proposal hopes to address the ongoing migrant crisis in Europe with an €8 billion fund — rising to €60 billion with contributions from member states and the private sector — aimed at persuading Middle Eastern and African countries such as Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, Niger, Ethiopia and possibly even Libya to process migrants before they travel to the EU…..”

  16. bluedog
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Germany emerges as the crux of the debate, Dr JR.

    From an emotional perspective the Merkel intervention is invaluable. In addition a helpful article in the DT by Sir Lynton Crosby highlights the importance of the economy in the continuing support for Remain. The Leave campaign has achieved great success in winning the debate about security and immigration. It is now accepted that Brexit offers the best outcomes for both issues. Remain holds an advatage in the context of the economy, and their demands for detail of an economic plan post-Brexit are hard to meet. No, the best way forward is to raise justified doubt regarding the EU economy.

    Countering the belief that the EU brings economic advantage to Britain is best done by highlighting the potential vulnerabilities in the German economy. The entire Remain position is currently predicated on a child-like trust in the power of the German economy to overcome all obstacles. In reality, Germany shows signs of becoming one of the PIGS. The excellent analysis of the German economy by George Friedman of Stratfor sets out the weaknesses of the Reich.

    The Churchillian option of turning again for the open sea in the form of Brexit will protect the British economy from the looming Gotterdamerung.

  17. formula57
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    The many and various “He wanted to …”….. ” He was told “ show what an astute negotiator was Mr Cameron, wisely taking note of Mrs Merkel’s colleague Wolfgang Schäuble who said during a phase of the Greek crisis: –

    “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”

  18. NickW
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    Hague would have us believe that it is the responsibility of the leave campaign to present to the Country in its entirety a complete post Brexit Government policy, and that in the absence of that policy, Parliament would be justified in sticking to the status quo.

    The referendum question is a simple one, and it will have a simple answer. It will then be the job of Government, not the leave campaign, to obey the instructions given to it by the electorate, in the event of a Brexit vote, and negotiate a British deal with the EU. We do not have to choose the “Norway option, or the “Swiss” option, we do what the Norwegians and the Swiss did, which is to negotiate an arrangement which suited their individual needs.

    We have the assurance of our Prime Minister that Britain can survive on its own, outside the EU, (in an earlier speech), and that surely is all that Hague and the rest of us need. Or was the Prime Minister lying, and if he lied then;perhaps he is still he lying now?

    As for the notion that Parliament could ignore the referendum result if it is for Brexit, and use its Remain majority to thwart Brexit legislation, that is likely to end in civil war. If Parliament is unable to implement the referendum result, it needs to be dissolved and an election held to elect a Government which can do its job; a cross party coalition of Brexit MPs is one possibility.

    Parliament passed the referendum legislation; it cannot now do anything other than implement the result, and if Parliament wants to pick a fight with the electorate; the electorate will oblige, in no uncertain terms.

    Leave needs to put Cameron’s “Can Britain survive on its own, of course it can”, speech on U tube, and give it the widest publicity.

  19. Bert Young
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    John is right to criticise the intervention of Merkel ; the referendum is a British affair and it is up to us to make our minds . Obama made the same mistake with the effect showing in the polls in favour of Brexit afterwards .

    German products and manufacturing rely heavily on the UK market and the worse thing they can do is to turn our preferences off . Germany’s economy and post war growth owes much to the generosity of the Marshall Plan ; it was able to re-establish its industry building new factories leap frogging its way forward , we , in contrast , honoured our war debts struggled with out-of-date war damaged premises and had to fight hard to make progress . To be lectured today by the Germans – in any way shape of form , is anathema to me . As someone who is old enough to have sheltered from the bombs and German aggression , I do not want to hear or witness any further German advices .

    • Jerry
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

      Bert Young; “the referendum is a British affair and it is up to us to make our minds”

      Indeed, but I seem to recall one Mr Farage [1] jetting off to Ireland to tell the Irish people to reject the Lisbon Treaty, so yes whilst you are correct to say that politicos from outside of the country in question should keep out of the debate that horse had already bolted – what goes around comes around as they say.

      [1] and there might also have been other British eurosceptics to

  20. Shieldsman
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    The Brussels agreement changed nothing. The PM’s foreword could best be described as flimflam. It could have been written by Jerry Adam’s the master of using weasel words.

    The new settlement, the special status was a re-writing and summation of pre-existing conditions there was nothing new. Opt outs of the Eurozone and Shengen were made in previous Treaty signings

    ‘Ever closer union’ was already an understanding, it was included in a statement the European Council put out in June 2014: “The concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further”.
    Ever closer union remains in the Treaty, we are in the Lisbon Treaty and we are part of a European super-state, subject to its rules and the ECJ. Opinion is that the agreement does not exempt Britain from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and the uniform application of its pro-Union approach to judicial decision-making.

    The ‘best of both worlds’ is a myth, if Cameron thinks he has a semi-detached status, a kind of pick and mix, with a full say in reforming the EU, he is living in a fools paradise.

    I am not knowledgeable of the the single market, if it was a free trade area, not a customs union with political ties such as ‘freedom of movement’, that would be fine, but it is not.

    The reason we are having the referendum is Cameron said the EU is not working, remember. it is now in a worse state than ever and he wants us to stay in. I can think of a few expletives to express my disgust.

  21. NickW
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Here, for William Hague, is the Prime Minister assuring us that Britain can survive outside the EU.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-speech-on-europe

    “Britain’s future.

    I am not saying for one moment that Britain couldn’t survive outside the European Union.

    Of course we could”

    We don’t need detailed policy, we have the PM’s assurance that survival outside the EU is no problem.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

      Yes, but what sort of “survival”? As I understand from our esteemed Prime Minister we would be surviving in the rubble, and probably resorting to cannibalism.

  22. Atlas
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Oh, if only Mrs. M could get her own country’s affairs into order with the self-same clarity she bestows on us …

    Still, it always easier telling others what to do…

  23. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    I’ve just skimmed through another tedious, woolly article by Hague headlined:

    “The Leave campaign can’t keep dodging the biggest question”

    and at the bottom of his article there is a box headed:

    “Remain or Leave? Best of Telegraph Opinion”.

    Somebody should remind Hague that the government and Parliament, both the MPs and the peers such as himself, ordained that the question on the ballot paper shall be:

    “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

    and the alternative answers to that question will be “Remain a member of the European Union” or “Leave the European Union”.

    If the government really wanted an answer to a different question, such as

    “Should the United Kingdom be like Norway or like Canada or like Albania?”

    then surely it was gross incompetence that it did not arrange to pose that question, which Hague now belatedly identifies as being the “biggest” question?

    But never mind; once we have given our answer to the question which Cameron and Osborne and Hague et al themselves chose to ask us, and we have said that we want to Leave the EU rather than Remain in the EU, and the government has given notice that the UK intends to withdraw from the EU and has got into negotiations with the other countries, then we could have another referendum to ask us whether we would prefer to be like Norway or Canada or Albania or Lesotho or whatever.

    Although if you believe Cameron’s half-crazed hyperbole we would not end up like any of those countries, we would be like Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan.

  24. Dioclese
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    I remember that famous comment :
    “If they say yes then it’s full speed ahead. If they say no then its business as usual”

    Sound familiar…?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

      Indeed that is what will happen.

  25. Know-dice
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    And the Pound is up again against the Euro, as Andrea Leadsom said on Newsnight last night “all just normal trading patterns”.

  26. BOF
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Yes, a welcome intervention by Mrs Merkel. But if the polls are still not going their way with a few days to go, will they then resort to bribery with all sorts of tempting offers to persuade us to vote remain?

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

      BOF, I don’t take notice of the polls after they got it so wrong in the last general election!! Let’s hope that BREXIT are ahead.

  27. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    I wonder if anybody knows anything more about this:

    http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/polls-present-mixed-picture-campaigns-seen-dishonest-remain-marginally/

    “EU Commission to decide in July on procedure for ratification of EU-Canada trade deal”

    “Politico reports that the European Commission will announce on July 5 whether the EU-Canada free trade deal (CETA) will only need the consent of the European Parliament to come into effect or will be considered as a ‘mixed agreement’ – meaning that it would need to be ratified by the national parliaments of all 28 EU member states.”

    Why should it be left to the bureaucrats on the EU Commission to decide whether or not our Parliament will be allowed any say over this?

  28. agricola
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    It is, I understand, the avowed intent of the EU to standardise taxation across the EU. One aspect of taxation is VAT., and we have all no doubt heard about the Tampax battle.

    It has not as yet been pointed out that the EU charges VAT on food. I have just returned from the supermarket.

    I have just paid:-
    4% on 26.01 or 1.04
    10% on 111.90 or 11.19
    21% on 34.96 or 7.34

    Total 172.87 + VAT 19.57
    Total Bill 192.44 Euros.

    Do the UK electorate realise that were the plans of the EU on VAT to be implemented our food bill would increase considerably.

  29. They Work for Us?
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Surely in practice there must be an EU high table at which the larger and net contributing countries pre agree / stitch up what is to take place for the meetings involving the 28 countries. If so, why are we not on it with Germany (no doubt with our weak ineffectual UK PMs. If not how come the other 27 countries don’t vote for the net contributors to pay in more and more to be shared out. If there is a restraining hand, why are we not using it.

    There is a You tube clip that explains how Project Fear failed to work in influencing the Norwegian EU referendum.
    Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c

  30. David Tomlinson
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Reminds me of my days in the ’90s dealing with the old Transport Directorate of the Commission (DGVII). They kept telling me that Britain would not be truly European till we drove on the right.
    Nothing to do with me as I worked for an international shipping organisation. When I remarked that at least in shipping we were showing the right spirit as we already ‘drove’ ships on the right I was told to be serious.

    • Andy
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

      Ah yes but the UK is correct here. Everyone drove on the left. It was Napolean and the French who messed it up. The EU should change and drive on the left again.

  31. Chris
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 3:36 pm | Permalink
    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

      Excellent article. It should have been given more prominence, but half a loaf is better than none … I was initially surprised to read this:

      “According to the Treasury the UK lost more than £70000 million from tax cases in the last Parliament, much of it thanks to the European Court and its decisions on companies.”

      but it seems to be true, and at an average of over £14 billion a year that is actually more than our net contribution to the EU budget.

  32. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    If possible JR, given you have time and inclination: I would appreciate your opinion on the ECB which is about to buy CORPORATE Bonds. It’s never done it before since it started its “normal” bond buying for QE according to a small report today by BBC News, Business Section which thought there is a possibility it could go terribly wrong and concluded: “Well we’ll all find out”

    Reply I will write about it when the vote is over.

  33. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Off-topic, a bit:

    https://euobserver.com/tickers/133729

    “Seven EU states put off legal obligations to join the euro”

    “The European Central Bank said Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Sweden fulfil most of the economic criteria to join the single currency area. The seven countries are obliged to eventually join the euro, but the ECB said in its annual convergence review that none had solved legal problems related to, among other things, central bank independence and integration into the eurosystem.”

    Not entirely off-topic, because of course back in May 2010 Merkel made no exception for the UK or Denmark when she told a French newspaper:

    “Our goal must be that all EU member States join the euro one day”.

    19 already in, 7 there said to be close to ready to join and legally obliged to do so, that makes 26 out of 28 leaving just the UK and Denmark with their opt-outs, and we know that most Danish politicians would prefer Denmark to be in it.

    Note also that Cameron could have insisted that Croatia must not be put under a treaty obligation to join the euro as a condition for its accession to the EU, but he chose not to do that and instead allowed it to go straight on the conveyor belt into the euro.

  34. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Remain campaign said that British businesses face a £34.4 billion ‘export tax’ if we leave the EU. Naturally, since this was a factor of 10 (order of magnitude) greater than the worst figure per annum that I could come up with, I wanted to know the source and derivation of this number.

    The statement was put out on behalf of Remain by Sajid Javid and Lord Mandelson. The number was derived by assuming that each of the 430,000 firms currently exporting to the EU would incur a non-tariff (i.e. bureaucratic) cost averaging £80,000. If it turns out to be true, then it is a reflection of how autarchic and protectionist continental powers are; it is not a valid criticism of Vote Leave.

    On a related matter, David Cameron is always banging on about how it took seven years for the EU-Canada trade deal (CETA) to be negotiated and how – although the final draft was completed in 2014 – it won’t be implemented until 2017. I’ll wager that this delay has not come from Canada but from the EU end. You can always rely on their bloody mindedness and sloth.

  35. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    You have probably read that, in the event of a Vote Leave win, the 75% of MPs who favour Remain will try to scupper the result by forcing the UK into a Norway style deal. This idea is being led by a man named Kinnock – like father, like son. Just think of the money that UK taxpayers have paid this benighted family (don’t forget to include Glenys) over the years in order to damage our country’s interests.

    Our response must be as short and brutal as possible. Have ready for June 24th a very short bill as follows:

    “The following Acts of Accession are repealed with immediate effect:
    – the original treaty
    – the Single European Act
    – the Maastricht Treaty
    – the Amsterdam Treaty
    – the Nice Treaty
    – the Lisbon Treaty

    The UK Supreme Court of the UK is the highest court in our land.

    The various European Courts no longer have any jurisdiction in the UK. All cases of UK origin proceding through them are cancelled with immediate effect.

    UK laws passed as a result of EC Directives, together with EC Regulations, up to and including June 23rd 2016 shall remain in force until the UK parliament chooses to amend them. Those passed after June 23rd shall have no force in UK law.

    Immigration to the UK will be determined by executive decisions of the Home Secretary.”

    By aiming for total constitutional control immediately, we will force the moment to its crisis. If the Commons or Lords votes this bill down, we go to the country. It goes without saying that we may need to force the present Prime Minister out of office.

  36. Richard1
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    I have a couple of questions:-
    (1) would we stay in the EU merger control regime in the event of Brexit & continue to count the UK as a European market for these purposes?
    (2) what would you say to those companies integrated across Europe eg for supply chains as to the potential disruption of Brexit? The main concern seems to be possible tariffs or other extra costs

    Reply (1) we might stay, subject to negotiation.
    (2) The rest of the EU is not proposing new tariffs. Integrated global supply chains stretch well beyond the EU, and non EU countries are often fully integrated parts of them

    • Richard1
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

      Thanks I agree we should stay in the merger control set up. It should be pointed out that we could opt for many such arrangements. Eg Mr Farage came badly unstuck last night in the debate when challenged on how the UK pharmaceutical industry would prosper given the European Medicines Agency is in London now and will move. He could have given the obvious answer that we could just stay in the current arrangement but instead launched into a silly attack on the pharma industry over its perceived hostility to alternative medicines.

      On supply chains you are right many companies have global supply chains, but given we have been in the EU for 43 years, many structures are set up to reflect this. It would be essential to avoid tariffs.

  37. Chris
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Can I suggest, Mr Redwood, that your Party is severely let down by so called eurosceptic MPs and MEPs, who are apparently nothing of the sort, and that this harms true eurosceptic MPs and also the reputation of politicians. On Guido, quotes from a Conservative MEP’s website are as follows:

    “Tory MEP Geoffrey Van Orden, ….:
    “I didn’t become an MEP in order to promote the EU – I want us to govern our own country”

    Last month he said:
    “I oppose so much of what goes on in this place (European Parliament) and in the European Union. I think a lot of it is detrimental to British interests and indeed in the interest of many of our European countries”

    And he threatened to back Brexit unless Cameron achieved “tangible change”. ….”

    Today, Sir Geoffrey has apparently come out for Remain.

  38. Maureen Turner
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    Just read this from Elmar Brok – German member of the EU Parliament – “It will simply be “divorce proceedings” and warned the migrant crisis will only get worse for the UK is we quit the 28 nation bloc.

    What is it about a German who gets power that makes him so determined to boss and bully everyone about? So here’s our reply to you Herr Brok – We don’t take too kindly to being badgered etc ed

  39. Chris
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Interesting article in Der Spiegel:
    Muzzling Brussels: Why EU Leaders Aren’t Debating Brexit
    David Cameron has asked EU leaders to keep out of the Brexit debate as millions of British citizens prepare to vote on their future in the European Union. The muzzling has led to political paralysis in Brussels. ….

    Juncker only managed to convince Cameron to give him a small loophole: If Brexit supporters have a clear lead in polls in the week prior to the June 23 referendum, the Commission president will be allowed to make his voice heard….

    One of the victims of this caution has been chief EU diplomat Federica Mogherini, who has spent recent months crafting the EU Global Strategy — the first comprehensive foreign policy guidelines for the union since 2003. The original intention had been to present the paper in the coming days, but it has now been delayed.

    Foreign and security policy still remain the domain of EU member states, and hardly any other union member is as insistent about its sovereignty as Britain. Furthermore, Mogherini’s draft text includes ideas aimed at exploring stronger joint European defense efforts — a potentially dangerous approach given that British tabloids passionately disparage any suggestion of a European army. Mogherini has now been forced to push her presentation back to June 24….”

  40. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Kinnock’s boy has just unwittingly smashed Hague’s “referendum lock” into pieces; any Remainder claim along the lines of “We would have to have a referendum before that could happen” has now been exposed as worthless. We knew the lock was defective, and we knew that it could easily be removed, but now we know that even if it ever led to a referendum MPs could decide to simply ignore the result because they know better.

    • Richard1
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

      Well that’s Parliamentary sovereignty for you.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

        It’s deliberate deceit for you.

  41. Margaret
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    It is not anti German to understand that this country has more power than the other 26 and Mrs Merkel uses this for the betterment of Germany and its’ surplus.
    Jerry seemed to compare this lady to Mrs Thatcher ; a comparison which may be pertinent with the exception that Mrs T was looking after the interests of GB not Germany. Whose side are you on Jerry?

    • Jerry
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

      @Margaret; That was my point, Mrs T was looking after the interests of GB&NI (plus any other national interest, such as Gibraltar), but far to many on this site and others object to Merkel doing the same for Germany!

      As for your last Question. I’m very much for the UK, which is more than some give an impression of being, their loyalty seems to be to simply follow the money, not create it ourselves – see my exchange with @Edward2 regarding the so called UK car industry.

      • Edward2
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

        I’m not impressed with the comment Jerry
        I’m someone who has spent their life in UK engineering and have a great love of this country.
        I have no particular love of money as a short term buisness ambition.
        But modern markets in the auto industry and manufacturing are world markets.
        This is how it is,nothing will stop it.
        In terms of investment and to achieve success, billions are needed.
        Your plan would be to keep the UK seperate and islolated whereas I think to be successful we need to encourage investment from all over the world just as we invest in projects abroad.
        Free world trade and investment Free of restrictions and tariffs will create wealth for us all.
        Ownership is becoming difficulf to define.
        I can go on line and ddcide to invest in a start up project right now in another country
        I can speak to the MD entrepreneur and send the investment via BACS tonight right now.

        • Jerry
          Posted June 10, 2016 at 8:54 am | Permalink

          @Edward2; “I can go on line and ddcide to invest in a start up project right now in another country”

          I though you said you do not follow the money, if not why are you gambling on such investments? Oh and why not help a UK start up, or even help an established UK owned and run company?

          “Ownership is becoming difficulf to define.”

          Exactly, and as such we are on the road to world governance, not just EU governance! What is more, although I do not subscript to the theory myself, many suggest that it will be an unelected world government run in the interests of a few elite barons of commerce.

          Many say that if a country has no control over what taxes can or are imposed then it has lost an important piece of its sovereignty (it’s an argument used often on this site by people), but surely if a country losses control of what it can produce, such decisions being taken elsewhere in the world, then has the country not also lost an important piece of its sovereignty?

          • Edward2
            Posted June 10, 2016 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

            I can invest all over the world from my PC just as others all over the world can.
            Both big institutional investors and small scale individuals like me.
            I may well decide to invest in a UK start up as I have done and tend to as a rule.
            What a wonderful ability and freedom we have these days Jerry
            It shows how old fashioned your idea of restricting ownership of UK industry to only UK people is.
            Check your pension fund
            You may be surprised how world wide your investments are.

  42. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    Oh God, we’ve only just got through the Farage interview on ITV and I am already incensed at the way he is being shut up half way through his answers. Let’s see what kind of mess the Lovely Julie makes of the Cameron interview. Let’s see if she interrupts him all the time. Is it my imagination or are all our TV stations biased? It is hardly neutral.

  43. Dennis
    Posted June 8, 2016 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    The problem with the leave campaigners with access to the public via the media, particularly in TV ‘debates’, is that they do not do their homework.

    Farage last night was quite good but he had not the good telling arguments and points which I have never heard spoken by him and others but are available here and elsewhere.

    eg. a questioner put up the point (as many, many do) that immigrants pay more into the system than take out. Migration Watch has explained that fiscally this is nonsense. Farage seems not to know this. There are so many good points available but Leave spokes people are unaware of them which leaves their audiences equally unaware.

    I think that most of the UK population has very little knowledge of the EU setup. By the way shouldn’t it have been the UK government’s duty years ago to send to every household an explanation of how the EU works as well as it being on the school curriculum. To have the country ruled by a new system without the population knowing how it works is dereliction of duty. Could do the same with our own parliamentary system. £9m spent on propaganda leaflets recently.

    • Dennis
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 9:28 am | Permalink

      This is what Migration Watch says:-

      “(Doesn’t the government say that data released by HMRC only last week showed recently-arrived EU migrants paid £2.5billion more in tax than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013/14.)

      That may be, but it is simply nonsense to call this a net fiscal contribution. A comparison just of personal taxes paid directly to HMRC with cash benefits paid out directly by HMRC is not in any way a measure of fiscal impact. The same calculation for the whole population – putting over £260 billion of income tax and national insurance against £41 billion of tax credits and child benefit – would suggest the UK is in fiscal credit to the tune of over £200 billion. On this basis the Chancellor would not have a deficit to deal with.”

  44. Dennis
    Posted June 8, 2016 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Cameron and others keep saying that Australia with its points system has a higher per capita immigration than the UK does. If they really believe that this says anything to support their view then they are very stupid so I don’t think they cannot see that this is absurd so are being deceitful but Farage et al don’t point this out.

    Firstly if Oz imports more it is under their choice which is exactly what the UK does not have. They have more ‘cos they want more of standards required.

    Also Cameron’s statement that EU immigrants without work for 6 months will be asked to leave(!!). Andrew Neil today said that this against EU law and against EU law to even find out immigrants work status!! Farage et al do not know this.

    • getahead
      Posted June 8, 2016 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

      Does per capita mean immigration numbers in relation to the native population?
      If so this is not surprising, given Australia’s relatively small population.

  45. R
    Posted June 8, 2016 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    One step at a time because we have to win first BUT do I understand this correctly that when push comes to shove the majority of MPs in the House will vote to Remain notwithstanding a clear mandate from the people of this Country to Leave? (always assuming of course that the Country does vote to “Leave”)

    Reply The Conservative government will use its majority to implement the people’s wishes.

  46. Dennis
    Posted June 8, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Cameron also keeps saying ‘of course we have sovereignty as we are having a referendum called by us…’ as if this one thing gives sovereignty to all our doings!

    No one comments on this absurdity.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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