The referendum question is simple

This referendum is our chance to restore our democracy and to take back control. It may be our only chance to vote on how we have lost control of our borders, our money, our taxes and our laws.

If we stay in we will belong to an EU that is on a wild ride to political Union. The UK will be dragged into paying more of the bills and pushed into more laws,taxes and restrictions than we want. The issue of Turkish membership is on the agenda. We will not be allowed a vote on it now terms are agreed on borders and migration through Association Agreement and later on membership.

Remain have done their best to complicate and confuse the issues of this referendum. They have wasted our time and our patience with a series of negative and false forecasts of what could go wrong if we leave. On Brexit the rest of the EU will not want to put new tariffs and barriers on their trade with us. Nor will there be some Brexit recession. The day after we vote to leave trade and investment will continue. The UK will still be the world’s fifth largest economy, and the world will want us as a partner.

The question anyone who is undecided needs to ask is just this

Do you want to elect those who make your laws, influence them, have access to them and be able to sack them if they cease to please?
Or do you want to promote European Union, where we have to agree our laws and taxes with others and live with free movement and EU expansion?

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188 Comments

  1. Lifelogic
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    It is indeed a very simple question, do we want democracy or do we want to be EU serfs?
    Do we want a government that we can elect and remove, who are largely British, and one that act in the interests of the UK (rather then those of of the EU)?

    It is in fact even simpler still. If we vote remain we will never get a second change to leave. If we vote leave a new far better deal will follow, as night follows day. We will then be asked to try again by the establishment. So even if you are for remain you should clearly vote leave and wait for the better deal.

    We should of course reject that second deal too, if it is any more than free trade and cooperation.

    Who therefore should vote remain? Just people who like undemocratic serfdom with the dreadful deal Cameron “achieved” one assumes?

    • Hope
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:01 am | Permalink

      As I write Sky claiming markets up and pound strengthens on the remain polls improved over the weekend!
      Cameron as abysmal last night, good to see the public comparing him to Chamberlain.
      No upper limit to immigration if the UK remains in the EU claims Corbyn. At least he tells the truth, unlike Cameron’s view on it. So it does give the poster by Farage better context.

      • Hope
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

        JR, you need to start thinking how the public will not trust your party irrespective of the result on Thursday. Cameron has made himself a pyriah to the public, Tory associations, his supporters. How are you going to investigate the Serco letters, cash from unions to change Union laws, entered the EU chats in bad faith, after all he said he ruled nothing out. He failed on all the major points of Bloomberg and before, is he going to be held to account or allowed sell out the country with a bad deal if we vote to leave?

    • Richard1
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

      Just got my official Vote Leave leaflet. It’s headed on a big red front page ‘Let’s give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week’. My question to JR is, after all your meticulous explanations of the difference between the gross and net contributions, how can you allow your name to be associated with such utter drivel?!

      Reply gross contribution is £350 m a week, and I want our democracy back so we can spend our own money.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

        The Treasury itself says in its official December 2015 report:

        https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf

        that “gross payments” in 2014 were £18,777 million, which works out at £361 million a week.

        I suppose Vote Leave could have written to them as follows:

        “When you say in your report that in 2014 our “gross payments” to the EU were £18,777 million, isn’t that utter drivel?”

        Mind you, I wouldn’t use that figure even though the Treasury does.

        • Richard1
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

          What is drivel is to claim that the whole gross sum could be spent on the NHS – even if that were a good idea – whilst still pledging to retain farming subsidies, science grants etc, which also come out of the current gross contribution. This slogan has to be the intellectual low point of the campaign.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:01 am | Permalink

            “This slogan has to be the intellectual low point of the campaign.”

            I don’t think so.

            Overstating the extra money which would be available by a factor of two is a minor matter compared to claiming that Brexit would cost every family £4300 a year when even if there was any such cost it would be a tenth or a twentieth of that, and really a trivial matter compared to claiming that Brexit would trigger a global economic meltdown and World War Three.

          • Anonymous
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 8:46 am | Permalink

            I can’t disagree with you on that Richard (if that’s what the campaign literature actually said)

            But the intellectual low point in this campaign was blaming Brexit for the death of Jo Cox.

            I’d say the actions of the pro EU establishment (over decades) rather than the words of the anti EU rebellion are more culpable.

            There has been no hatred or racism pedalled by the Brexit side and if there had the criminal lawyers would have been on to it.

          • stred
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 10:14 am | Permalink

            It was a mistake to quote the gross contribution and link it to spending on various goodies. The unscrupulous PR merchants running the EU wagon were bound to make the most of it while peddling their own multiple lies.

            There was a reopt yesterday that the list of goodies totalled £111billion and therefor 11 times the saving. Could JR please show an account sheet for the real net savings and expenditure on goodies.

            Reply I set it all out here a Brexit budget – pl look it up – it was all costed precisely using government figures.

        • rose
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

          And the rebate is in constant danger of being negotiated away. It is already smaller than when MT first secured it.

          The figure needs explaining but to alert people that it will only go up.

      • zorro
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

        Richard1, I refuse to believe that you don’t understand the point.

        Do you accept that if we were not charged the average equivalent of £361m p/w by the EU, we could decide ourselves how we could spend this money or its equivalent in the UK. Yes or no?

        zorro

        • Richard1
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:26 am | Permalink

          leave have pledged to retain all current spending on farming subsidies, science grants etc which currently come out of the gross EU contribution. Leave have also produced a Brexit budget which includes spending on all sorts of other areas such as reduced VAT on fuel and abolition of the tampon tax – all to come from the EU contribution. That means we will not be able to give ‘our NHS’ £350m per week doesn’t it?

          Reply MY Brexit budget sets out substantial money for the NHS, the removal of VAT on fuel and tampons and other spending within the total available to us on exit. What part of it do you disagree with or not understand?

          • Richard1
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

            Come on the Vote Leave leaflet says we will spend the whole gross £350m per week on ‘our NHS’. That means we can’t afford any of the non-NHS spending in your budget! This is ridiculous.

      • libertarian
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

        Richard1

        Utter drivel, really ? Do you have such little understanding of money? Just because the remain lefty mob hasn’t got a clue theres no reason to be taken in by their rhetoric

        • Richard1
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:28 am | Permalink

          What are you talking about? I am making the point that you can’t both pledge to retain current farming subsidies, science grants etc, produce a Brexit budget with all sorts of other commitments and pledge to give the whole £350m PE to ‘our NHS’. Which part of that is difficult to follow?!

  2. Mark B
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    First let me say thank you to our kind host. Before posting today I was looking at one of his YouTube video debates. It was the one from the Mile End Institute. Your opening comments, certainly about immigration, are very much inline with my own. We need a fair, open but controlled system that respects both those that live here and those that wish to settle, along with the needs and the general comfort of the nation as a whole. I shall return to the clip when I have more time later but would ask others to look at it for themselves. Thank you.

    We in the Leave / Out camp do not make enough noise about what is going on in the EU and do not hold the Remaniacs feet to the EU fire on the subject of EVER CLOSER UNION and what it truly means. We do not make enough use of the fact that, both Lord Heseltine and Chancellor Merkel, want and see the UK one day being members of the EURO. These are facts ! They themselves have made numerous statements to that fact and, I genuinely believe that the UK will, if we choose to remain, will one day be forced to join the EURO, and it is high time that this was stated. The Remainiacs cannot deny that senior members of the political class have made these statements and, just like so many of their promises that the UK cannot and will not be forced to do this or that, the fact is, at some point in time, we ‘SHALL’ be made to join the EURO.

    The EU already, as stated by our kind host, controls many areas of taxation. The UK cannot even present its own budget before Parliament without first handing it too the EU for their approval. We are, in all but name, have become a vassal state of the EU. The more the Leave campaign tell the British people ‘what is being done to them’, the more they will recoil in disgust. We are being handed over on a plate by our own elected representatives to a Political and Corporate Mafia. One that shows little or no concern for the people under its charge – witness the treatment of Greece and others.

    For those reading this who may wish to vote to Remain, I beg you, please think again. Because if we vote to remain in the EU, we ALL come to regret it.

    OUT !!!

  3. Lifelogic
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    Perhaps the biggest lie from Cameron yesterday was the idea that if we vote to leave the EU we could not ever rejoin the EU. Clearly we could rejoin very easily, why otherwise are they all so keen that we do not leave? Not of course that we would ever want to rejoin. Who in their right minds would join such an anti democratic, socialist disaster area? We see Switzerland & Norway certainly do not want to ever join. The UK deal will clearly be far better than their deal too as we import more than we sell them.

    Osborne yesterday even indicated that if we leave the EU we would have to hastily create more rate tape to replace the EU red tape. He really does not understand economics, competitive advantage and business at all does he? The UK needs yet more red tape, regulations and higher taxes rather like it needs a national minimum wage & chancellor as dire as Osborne or worse still McDonnall.

    We see, with Baraness Warsi “theatrics” yet again today, what a dire judge of people worthy of promotion Cameron is? He seems to have the same “diversity” flower arranging approach that the BBC so low. Why not just judge people on genuine merit and ability for a change?

    Excellent articles by Charles Moore and Roger Bootle today in the Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/the-killing-of-jo-cox-does-not-justify-suspending-democratic-deb/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/19/remains-models-are-built-on-poor-foundations/

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:15 am | Permalink

      When Cameron said that my mind immediately turned to the last paragraph of the “exit clause”, Article 50 TEU:

      http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.C_.2016.202.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:C:2016:202:TOC#C_2016202EN.01001301

      “5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.”

      However there is a complication, and it is the same problem the Scots would have faced if they had voted to separate from the UK but still wanted to stay in the EU – that a country which applies to join the EU must accept all its norms, so as a new member state in its own sovereign right Scotland would not have been permitted to inherit any of the UK’s present opt-outs from those norms.

      On the other hand when Cameron says the UK enjoys a “special status” in the EU that is better described as an “anomalous position”, with temporary “derogations” from some of the EU norms, and if we stay in then sooner or later our government will give up all of those opt-outs anyway.

      As Margot Wallstrom once rather cryptically put it “an opt-out is also an opt-in”, “this is not cast in stone”, because it is expected that eventually all member states will fall into line in all respects, giving up any opt-outs they were granted just as expedients so they didn’t block the establishment of new EU norms.

      I mentioned that Christine Lagarde gave a speech in Vienna on Friday:

      https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/331399291/lagarde-speech-unity-in-diversity-the-case-for-europe-finance-in-dialogue-vienna

      and one of the things she said was “one market, one money”, in contradiction of Cameron’s notion that we can remain in his precious EU Single Market without ever having to adopt the euro.

    • Peter Stroud
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

      How right you are about Baroness Warsi. Cameron arranged her promotion to the upper house as a sop to the Moslem population: now it is pay back time. Unfortunately for her and the PM, no one in authority on the Leave side can remember her ever standing on a platform for the campaign. So it seems like another of Cameron’s PR stunts that could backfire.

  4. Mick
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Watch Cameron on QT last night, like worm on a hook, he says we would be safer in the dreaded eu so what’s he saying is if we leave were going to be invaded Muppet, the only people invading us are the millions of eu citizens, then he tried to compare him self to Churchill, we went to war to protect ourselves and others from hitler , also as sad as it was of Jo Cox to have been so brutally murdered I wish the media would stop this relentless coverage of it I would bet my bottom dollar there wouldn’t be as much air time if she had been on the leave side

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:22 am | Permalink

      I have seen too many photo copier and car sales people types over the years to be fooled by Cameron.

      • Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

        Lifelogic, I think you should apologise for this comment :

        Its deeply insulting to both copier and car sales people.

      • Miami.mode
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        LL. The way he called many of the men Sir was reminiscent of a second-hand car dealer, the sort that would give a banger a dodgy MOT certificate knowing full well that it wouldn’t pass in a year’s time.

      • zorro
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/prime-minister-buys-used-nissan-micra-for-his-wife/

        LOL, he paid £1500 for a blue 2004 Micra recently…. Rather too much I fear…. Many comparable cars for around £600 – £700 in the car adverts. I doubt that he would be a very good car salesman either. I didn’t think much of his negotiating hand with the EU recently.

        zorro

    • Timaction
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

      Guido has a breaking story with Jack Straw caught using this tragedy for remain political capital. Disgraceful. Farage right again! I won’t ever forget how low the Remainers have been. I will also never forget how the legacy parties lied and conspired to get us to this low point in history where we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in the EU. Shame on you all. I’m glad I didn’t vote foe them

      • Hope
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

        Will Straw not Jack. Apples never fall far from the tree as they say. A pity Chilcott not released before the referendum, I suspect Jack Straw will feature in it. Remind me was it not he and Rifkin (got into trouble over rules governing taking work outside Parliament ed) and other MPs let them off?

        • zorro
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

          Jack Straw/Malcolm Rifkin

          zorro

          • zorro
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

            Rifkind even!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

          Yes, but we have to respect then all now apparently, in the new atmosphere. This despite the fact that only about 50% deserve respect any and many of the rest deserve complete contempt.

    • Jagman84
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      The biggest insult I can make against his performance is that it sounded like a speech by Nick Clegg. However, Cameron would probably take it as a compliment! He ain’t no Conservative bruv!

      • Hope
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

        Cameron still thinks he should be in office to negotiate!! The Tories need to wake up fast before Corbyn gets in office.

        Sky claim Brent crude has risen on remain performing better in the polls! Sky will lose customers at this rate.

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Or as Freddie Forsyth puts it in a letter to the Telegraph on Saturday:-

    “I shall vote that government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from this British earth.”

    • Richard1
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

      Does it really say “this British Earth”?!!

      • Anonymous
        Posted June 21, 2016 at 8:49 am | Permalink

        earth – lower case.

        Soil.

  6. Antisthenes
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    The simple truth yet about half the population appear to be unable to grasp it. In fact more than half because even among those that want to leave the EU they want to for quite different reasons. Immigration being the most prominent among them. Quite reasonable as free movement of labour is an economically sound concept but uncontrolled and unmanaged movement is definitely not. So the core reason sovereignty and self determination for leaving is accompanied by a myriad of others that are so damaging for the people of the UK.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      Selective movement of some labour can indeed be a net benefit to the UK, but it needs to be people who are not likely to be a net financial liability to the state. They thus need to be earning well above the average wage not at or near the minimum as so many are. Also not criminals, not too old, without major health issues, not bringing elderly relatives, some health insurance, good skills, able to speak English and ideally have some independent wealth too…….. it is not rocket science.

  7. Caterpillar
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    Yes to Q 1.

    (Though this would also include ending the Lords, establishing an English Assembly, and reconsidering who determines monetary policy.)

  8. margaret
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    B aroness Warsi is perhaps getting cold feet.I wonder what we ever did in GB before joining the union? The problem is that many are losing their capabality to think for themselves . They are too young or have forgotten how all the best ethics and subsequent laws were passed in GB. Moderation and good sense made it so we didn’t overcrowd our island house enabling sometimes almost full employment. It is only when we started selling off our heritage, our stability , our greatness that we began to suffer. Some were looking for better and we got worse.I heard for many years those youngsters then, who went around spewing vitriol about the dinosaurs of GB , so they put these young adults in positions where they could destabilise us even more. They ridiculed the countries who had brought them out of wars and tragedy , they ridiculed the countries who gave them hand outs to prevent them starving , they ridiculed the countries who helped keep a roof over their heads. The EU won’t do this , so I hope they can all make it on their own in the future for if we remain they will have to scrap for survival.

  9. Caterpillar
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    An alternative would be: Did Mr Cameron’s negotiations achieve a reformed EU?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:38 am | Permalink

      Yes sure real and meaningful reform! – We can pay child benefits to children not in the UK at local rates!
      It will probably cost far more to administer than it actually saves though.

  10. JoolsB
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    “Do you want to elect those who make your laws, influence them, have access to them and be able to sack them if they cease to please?”

    You could say the same about Scottish, Welsh & NI MPs John who influence laws that only affect England and whom we cannot sack and who receive vast sums of English taxes which allow them services which we in England do not receive. You and your Tory colleagues, who rely on England for your support, have done nothing to stop that affront to democracy despite Cameron’s broken promise of English votes for English laws.

    I am a passionate Brexiter but I am also a passionate believer in fairness and democracy for England whose people are relegated to third or even fourth class citizens of the UK in the last remaining colony in the western world. What a pity your Tory colleagues cannot show as much passion when it comes to demanding equality for those who voted for you.

    Hopefully we will vote leave on Thursday and then hopefully England, unlike now, will be recognised as a nation in it’s own right again, something it is currently denied by the EU and which your colleagues are happy to go along with. Maybe then we will see an end to the blatant discrimination against it by successive UK Governments, including this Tory one which has done NOTHING to address the rotten deal our young, our sick and our elderly get compared to the rest of the UK. Then again we shouldn’t hold our breath. It’s obvious the Tories care no more about English than the anti- English Labour (and LibDum) party.

  11. Anonymous
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    The question is simpler than that:

    Which do you wish to abolish ? The British government or the EU government ?

    (Remainers pretend that we can have both but we can’t.)

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

      But isn’t the British government a part of the EU government, the EU being something like a collective wizard of Oz?

  12. Charles Cara
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    I don’t have the right to tell anyone how to vote in the referendum, but if I may, I would like to say what I will think about before placing my cross. It will be the 91 year old lady I met last week when watching a game of village cricket.
    She grew up in Munich. But when hate filled political attacks became too much, her parents put her on the kindertrain to Britain. I could not bear to ask her if her parents followed, but I suspect not: her foster home was blown up by a Nazi bomb in WW2.
    It seems unthinkable now that European countries would drop bombs on each other. That is the prime success of the EU.
    Political decisions are shared, there are forums to resolve disputes, and a court to bind countries to the result. It is not perfect, but as Churchill said, Jaw-Jaw is better than War-War.
    Sometimes the rules set in Brussels grate. My own industry is being challenged by MIFID2. But these rules do come via a democratic process, and give us scale to compete globally.
    Anyhow, maybe it is better to have a little less sovereignty over say, toaster design, in order to have peace and prosperity.
    Free trade alone does not do this: 1914 was a peak in global trade.
    NATO alone does not do this: military might only gives space for politics to work.
    So on Thursday I will think about the 91 year old lady. I shall think about my daughters. And then I shall place my cross.

    Reply Peace between the western EU countries has been kept since 1945 by the presence of NATO and the US to keep the peace, and by the fact that France and Germany are now peace loving democracies. None of tis changes if we leave.

    • zorro
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

      Yes, place your cross and live with poorly toasted bread. The sacrifices some people will make to live in an EU superstate ? ……

      Your trade off is nugatory, and not needed to ensure peace between peace loving, democratic, independent states.

      zorro

    • libertarian
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

      Charles Cara

      If you believe that the EU has bought peace how do you explain the 35 wars, revolutions, coups , terrorist uprisings, independence wars and insurrections and the current ongoing war in Europe that have all occurred SINCE the EU was founded ?

  13. Ian Wragg
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Listening to Cameron yesterday I was disgusted at the lies and spin coming from a Prime Minister.
    He was on a par with a second hand car salesman.
    He never answered a question only repeating that the economy would suffer if we stopped half a million coming into the country annually.
    He prevaricated over Turkey and wouldn’t admit that we are paying to speed up access.
    Nothing he says has any credibility.

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:16 am | Permalink

      I see that the Turkish government fired tear gas and rubber bullets at an otherwise peaceful LGBT rally in Istabul yesterday.Any comment from Dave?We know LGBT rights are an issue close to the PM’s heart.

      Also I see the anti-EU Five Star Movement have won the mayoral elections in Rome.

      Both these events would normally have had the BBC salivating (the winner in Rome will be it’s first ever woman mayor),but they seem not to feature much on the BBC news.I wonder why!

      • Lifelogic
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

        Such is the BBC. If remain win it will be the BBC bias, Cameron’s sloped pitch (and use of the tentacles of the state) and the milking of the tragic death of Jo Cox that did it. I still find it hard to believe the voters will fall for it though. But the odds on Brexit are drifting badly.

        • M Davis
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

          I was in a local charity shop today. There were 3 staff, 1 visitor and 2 customers (including me). There was a converstaion going on and I gathered that it was political and guessed that it surely had to be about the Referendum.
          As I started to ask if it was about the Referendum, the visitor got up to leave, saying that she wished that she had voted differently – she said that she had voted weeks ago by post, and left. I gathered that she had voted to Remain.
          Of the others that were left, I first asked one of the staff what she was voting and she said Leave. I asked another of the staff what he intended voting and he said that he wasn’t sure but thought that now it would probably be Leave.
          I asked the third staff member what she was voting and she said Leave.
          I asked the other customer what he would be voting and he said Leave.
          That left me to say that I also would be voting Leave.
          So, briefly, out of the 6 people in that charity shop, almost all would be voting Leave, with one wishing that she had done.
          We were all of the older generation.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

        @Mitchel; Not sure what your point is, surely the way that LGBT march, that had been banned by the way, was policed will ensure that Turkey not only remains outside of the EU but likely doesn’t even get visa free travel.

        As for the populist Five star movement in Italy, remember that it is not just Eurosceptic but also anti-establishment, environmentalist and anti-globalist, not a happy marriage of connivance for anyone other than the likes of the eurosceptic left, such as the UK’s Socialist Labour Party.

        As for your attempt to bash the BBC, neither story above has been covered much be any UK media outlet, probably because there have been far more important domestic stories to cover, many of which UKIP (supporters) would prefer not to be, wonder why!…

        • Patrick Geddes
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

          Why should the march be banned “by the way”
          Is that a decision you accept or approve of ?

        • Mitchel
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 9:19 am | Permalink

          Anti-globalism is hardly the preserve of the Eurosceptic left,by the way.Ever heard of Marine Le Pen to name but one dissenter from another parish?

        • Tad Davison
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 9:25 am | Permalink

          The BBC seldom covers the stories that RT covers, especially when it comes to anti-EU austerity demonstration rallies.

          I wonder why?

          Tad

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

            @Tad Davison; If you believe the anti west propaganda on RT more fool you, many of their stories have are at best described as altered reality.

          • Tad Davison
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

            Jerry,

            Whenever you start with a tirade or a ridiculous argument, I tend to look at the night sky, and tonight I notice there’s a beautiful full moon!

            How in the hell can a report by RT that shows violent demonstrators in Brussels carrying placards denouncing EU austerity, be considered ‘altered reality’?

            It is scandalous that the BBC doesn’t cover such stories, and we may justifiably wonder what their motives are for such laxity.

            And when Russia is accused of something by the west, who are then challenged to provide evidence for their claims, is it any wonder that people begin to doubt the western media’s credibility when no evidence is subsequently given?

            I carry no brief for Russia, but I do often doubt the accuracy of the reports emanating from the British MSM. The ability to question in an even-handed way and not automatically believe everything our own ‘most trusted broadcaster’ says, is good for the soul. Give it a try!

          • Jerry
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 8:35 am | Permalink

            @Tad Davison; “How in the hell can a report by RT that shows violent demonstrators in Brussels carrying placards denouncing EU austerity, be considered ‘altered reality’?”

            You really are quite clueless as to how video and audio can be edited and mixed together to show what ever the director wishes, coupled to the required reporters narrative. The Independent ‘online newspaper’ only yesterday showed how the Vote Leave campaign in the UK had added extra audio to a video of a fight in the Turkish parliament, the Independent even cited the online copyright-free FX audio clip used to add a female scream!

            “The Camera never lies” is a lie in its self, it was true in the 1930s and it is even more so today in this age of digital manipulation. Nor is it very expensive now, top of the range Hollywood spec software can be bought for as little as £600 these days and you don’t need a very high spec PC or Mac to run it, cheap enough for anyone to tell their lie.

            Of course no one is doubting that those protests in Brussels took place, they were reported by the non British European media as well as the British media. My problem, is that you have chosen to believe a context that best fits your pre-existing beliefs (and evidently Mr Putin’s), not necessarily reality.

            “I carry no brief for Russia, but I do often doubt the accuracy of the reports emanating from the British MSM.”

            As do a lot of people, including myself,. but you seem to simply reach for the easy opinion, what ever confirms, right or wrong, that your ‘comfort zone’ is safe, rather than using modern IT to seek out proof of any truth or lies.

            Oh and Tad, I do not unconditionally believe the output any broadcasters, other than true live feeds, such as coverage of the HoC on BBC-P. Even recorded but broadcast ‘as if live’ can be problematic as in and out points are often adjusted to fit broadcast time slots, who knows what gets lost.

    • Dennis
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

      @Ian Wragg – yes I agree. Unfortunately the questions from the audience mostly were not pertinent/strong enough. Dimbleby once pressed CMD on why outside the EU immigration could not be controlled which CMD could not answer except that it is ‘difficult’ but Dimbleby just said ‘OK’ and let it pass.

      The ‘negotiation’ that limits, gradually, in work benefits instead of completely for 4 years as he wanted has never been posed to CMD and was never mentioned at the debate and there is no info an what that graduated rate is – no one asked. CMD always puts in that ‘full’ benefits he ‘negotiated ‘ away.

      CMD also made much of the £350m/week is a ‘lie’ – this was just left to hang with no refutation.

      These confrontations are always unsatisfactory.

      • zorro
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

        I wish that I could have questioned him on these and many other points. Is he going to debate head to head with Farage and confront supposed ‘intolerance’ on a level playing field with honour for the sake of Jo Cox?…. Thought not ?

        zorro

    • Timaction
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

      Yes, he is a disgrace as is Gideon but the Tory Party won’t denounce them. That’s down to Mr Farage as always. Political pigmies one and all.

  14. Jerry
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    “This referendum is our chance to restore our democracy and to take back control”

    Well if it is a simple case of restoring the status quo to our “democracy” then it really is simple which way to vote, but logically that should mean that not only are supporters of parties like the Greens, the LibDems, PC and the SNP be on the Remain side -as they are- but also UKIP! [1]. Why would any of them wish to give up their political power base that punches well above their weight, and is obviously going to increase as the EU moves towards full political union?

    [1] whilst Labour would be for Brexit

    “If we stay in we will belong to an EU that is on a wild ride to political Union.”

    We are on a wild ride what ever we do, at least jumping on the EU roller-coaster people do know where they are heading even if the ride is through a house of political or democratic horrors, jumping aboard the Brexit bandwagon could end at the beginning of the rainbow or in a metre think brick wall or the edge of a cliff at high speed with no brakes!

    “Remain have done their best to complicate and confuse the issues of this referendum.”

    As has the Brexit side, non more so over the issue of migration, never mind our actual EU contributions, nor have Brexit been very clear just what our trading position would be, many seem to want a Brexit but then acknowledge the fact that we would have to sign back up to the “Four Freedoms” that Brexit is meant to remove us from!.

    “Do you want to elect those who make your laws, influence them, have access to them and be able to sack them if they cease to please?”

    Well this (Tory) government has 36.81% of the vote [24.38% of the actual electorate who voted], whilst Labour have 30.45% [20.16%] and those results are typical of a GE result, that leaves 33% -one third of the voting electorate [55% -over half the total electorate] unable to remove those they do not wish to make their laws, now compare how a party like UKIP or the Greens that have just one MP each at Westminster can influence polices at the very least in the EP with their MEPs. You argument would only be true if the UK has or was going to have a PR voting system.

    • Patrick Geddes
      Posted June 22, 2016 at 7:18 am | Permalink

      Under PR the Conservatives would still have a majority.
      UKIP would have more MPS
      SNP would have less

  15. bluedog
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Greatly enjoyed the dog-whistle from Comrade Corbyn, Dr JR.

    The admission that immigration from the EU was open-ended was clearly intended restore his credibility and that of Labour among their constituents. Having done that, Labour voters will feel able to vote Leave without betraying their party. A clever move.

    Corbyn at least is a realist with a conscience who has trouble telling bare-faced lies. Sadly the same cannot be said for his Remain coalition partner on the Treasury benches.

  16. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    To be clear, the UK government can veto a proposed accession treaty for Turkey to join the EU, as with any other candidate country, and as the signed accession treaty could not be finally ratified without having been approved through an Act of Parliament it follows that Parliament also has a veto; however we the people would NOT have a veto, not unless the UK government and Parliament ordered that it should be put to a referendum despite there being no legal requirement for a referendum under Hague’s so-called “referendum lock” law or any other law, and Parliament then accepted a “No” answer as binding.

    To me it is perfectly clear that our politicians would strongly resist any attempt to give the British people a direct say on whether Turkey should be allowed to join the EU, and we would be in another, probably unsuccessful, campaign to get a referendum.

    My first reason for thinking this is that since the 1975 referendum on whether to stay in the EEC with eight other countries successive governments of all the mainstream parties have enthusiastically agreed to nineteen other countries joining, without ever holding a single referendum to ask us whether we agreed to those variations of the original contract that we had directly approved in 1975.

    My second reason for thinking it is that if they wanted us to have a referendum before Turkey could join the EU then they would have put that into the “referendum lock” law, the European Union Act 2011, but rather than doing that they did the exact opposite by putting in a blanket exemption for all accession treaties, Section 4(4)(c), which has already been invoked to rule out a referendum on whether we wanted Croatia to be admitted to the EU.

    As for the timing, Cameron has facetiously said not before the year 3000, but last night he became more serious by saying it would be at least thirty years, however without noting that it is longer than that, forty one years, since we were last allowed any kind of referendum on the EEC/EC/EU/USE project; and he has deliberately had it put into law that we never have any referendums on future enlargements.

    Reply I and others tried to get a referendum lock on future entrants to the EU but failed with Hague. It is official UK government – and opposition – policy to support the Turkish membership application and to spend UK and other EU money on accelerating consideration of the Turkish application. It is also UK government and opposition policy to back the EU/Turkey Association Agreement with its visa free access to Schengen Europe. Vote Leave has asked Mr Cameron to say he will veto Turkish membership, and he has refused to do so.

  17. eeyore
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Mr Redwood sets out his stall once again for the Leave case. The Remain case is put today by Baroness Warsi (who she?), from whom I learn I am a nasty xenophobic racist. So, it appears, are many others who comment here, and so of course is our learned, mild and patient host.

    So are approximately half the population of these islands. We shall soon find out whether, to our shame, we odious people are actually in a majority. As soon as we have sorted out the little business of restoring our democracy, I’m sure all of us will want to address our own personal failings so as to earn the valuable approbation of the baroness.

    I note, incidentally, that these accusations of racism are never directed at named individuals, doubtless due to a wholesome terror of the libel courts.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      Baroness Walsi (Cameron’s very odd ex-choice for chair of the party) now seems to think that the future of the UK’s democracy and government should be decided not by the real arguments, but by the fact that she personally does not like the tone of a photograph that was used as a poster for the leave side.

      A photograph that was in plenty of newspapers and the media a while back and is simply a record of what happened.

      Is it not time for her to grow up a little?

      • Dennis
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

        That Warsi could change her mind on a vast complex question on the basis of a poster does show the paucity of her intelligence.

      • Mitchel
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

        Interesting how much weight the media have attached to Warsi’s “defection” compared to that,over the weekend, of Lord Guthrie,a person of infinitely greater gravitas I would have thought,in the other direction .

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      Personally, I couldn’t see anything wrong with the UKIP poster or the message it conveyed. The EU is an absolute joke and it is best that failing is highlighted so that the British people can make an informed choice – whether we choose to be governed by a democratic sovereign parliament, or an undemocratic unwieldy monolith that is on a downward spiral into oblivion.

      The question, ‘What power do you have, who gave it to you, and how do we get rid of you?’ should be ringing in the ears of every single voter and guide their choice when placing their cross on the ballot paper.

      Tad

      • Lifelogic
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

        Indeed but not even Tony Benn’s son seem to have taken this on board.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

        @Tad Davison; For the majority of people, both for and against Brexit, your comment says far more about you (and those who agree with you or make similar points) than it does those who object to the vilification of Refugees as was the case in that UKIP poster.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:49 am | Permalink

          Considering that poster was a still shot, taken from a film shown prebiously on TV news, there is a lot of virtue signalling going on about it.
          The Left’s machine has worked overtime to attack it and connect it with all kinds of everything.
          Perhaps it shocked people showing as it quite accurately did the scale of immigration and that the vast majority are young single male.
          We appreciate you are not racist Jerry.
          As you keep informing us on regular occasions.

        • Tad Davison
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 8:58 am | Permalink

          I had an idea you would crawl out of the woodwork. Why not be more specific and actually say what you think my post says about me, and not leave it to guesswork or speculation?

          So just for you, I am not against refugees and I am sympathetic to their plight, but I AM totally against the circumstances that caused the problem in the first place. Could it be that Mrs. Merkel’s pronouncement had something to do with the numbers, and might EU policy be compounding the problem?

          Tad

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

            @Jerry; Oops… to a Public forum site. Although judging by the bile eliminating from the fingers of some Brexit supporters perhaps a poultice might be more appropriate!

          • Edward2
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

            What on Earth are you going on about Jerry?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 8:42 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; Best direct you question to the moderator…

  18. turbo terrier
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    Exactly right John.

    Just watched the Breakfasts interview with the city “experts”. As usual the remains always get the last word. This country has been through a lot of finiancial problems in it’s history but we are still pitching a ball game, when we vote leave we will do it even better.

    Staying in will eventually backrupt us when Europe goes down. Staying in is akin to moving deckchairs on the Titanic. The whole European project as it is heading is totally unsustainable.

    As for CMD stating on the BBC yet again there will no European Army, Turkey’s membership begs belief in last nights Question Time.

    Treat the electorate with respect. Stop weeing down our necks and tell us it is raining.

    His actions are disgraceful and are not worthy of the office he holds.
    He has to go along with Gideon

    • DaveM
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:09 am | Permalink

      This is the thing, TT. I keep hearing “that won’t happen for at least a decade, if not decades”.

      My life won’t really change either way, but I don’t want my grandchildren and great grandchildren to grow up in an EU superstate, which is why I so passionately want to Leave.

      The Remanians keep putting out leaflets saying the children will be better off in the EU, then kick a Turkey and EU-Army flavoured can down the road for said children to deal with.

      It all just points to the same conclusion, ie, that the Remainians are basing their arguments on – and are motivated by – very short-term, selfish factors.

  19. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    When I vote I shall do so on the assumption that if we vote to stay in the EU it is unlikely we will ever have another referendum, not even on whether we should join the euro.

  20. Know-dice
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    For better or worse, I’m voting Leave.

    A major disappointment for me is the downright lies coming from Cameron and Osborne.

    Why would any responsible Prime Minister call a referendum on EU membership if they knew that a vote to leave would cause economic Armageddon and destroy democracy in the civilised world?

    The answer is they wouldn’t, so the only conclusion one can have is that he [Cameron] is lying…

    That old Australian points system chestnut keeps on coming up – So lets clarify, Australia chooses the amount and type of immigrant allowed in to their country. Whether the level is twice UK per head of population doesn’t matter, the choice is theirs, remaining in the EU we can’t. Don’t forget a population density in Australia of 3 people per square kilometre vs. UK of 262 per square kilometre.

    Then, the question “the EU can only be reformed if you are in it”. Clearly we can NEVER manage to reform the EU from within, look at what has been given away since 1973. Look what Blair & Brown gave away at Lisbon despite Brown’s “Red Lines”. Look at what meagre crumbs Cameron asked for and didn’t get with his recent pan-Europe negotiations (and what did HE give away?). The EU will never change and you certainly can’t change it from the inside.

    We need to give our children freedom to create their own destiny trading and working with the rest of the world, rather than the closed self-serving straight jacket of the EU.

  21. NickW
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    I’ve got some questions for Remain.

    Why do you think it better that Britain should be governed by Brussels?

    Given the continuing process of transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels, at what point should the Westminster Parliament be dissolved as impotent?

    • formula57
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:48 am | Permalink

      Some Remainers (especially young ones I find) seem to suppose that Brussels offers benign government and more particularly keeps in check any member state government that might wish to take initiatives of a more extreme nature. They suppose that the EU’s values are fundamentally in tune with liberal democracy and that if a majority of member states’ votes are needed to implement any measure that cuts across those values, they will not be forthcoming. Accordingly, rule by Brussels is some sort of safeguard.

      The Westminster Parliament will be retained long after it has no power or purpose as a means of offering assurance to the masses that there are people of influence close to home over whom they have some limited sanction. Its demise will be forestalled by pointing out it helps bring in tourists and keeps some n’er do wells off the streets.

  22. oldtimer
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    An excellent summary.

    I just hope that it gets through to enough people when they are they are about to cast their vote.

  23. Ian Wragg
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    In todays Telegraph is the obituary of Admiral John Hervey. Reading this exposes the lie of the EU keeping the peace.
    Warspite was under NATO which actively maintained a tab on the Soviets in partnership with the USA.
    I can’t imagine any of our servicemen putting themselves in harms way for Juncker and his gang
    I was a crew members that fateful night and I certainly wouldn’t.

    • DaveM
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:20 am | Permalink

      I’m a serviceman and I would have to leave my beloved organisation if my oath of allegiance were to change in any way. I wouldn’t break a fingernail for Druncker.

      In response to Jerry the other day who said:

      “No, the Armed forces are ultimately loyal to the leader of the elected government…..”

      Sorry Jerry, they’re not. My commission comes from HM the Queen. The zeitgeist at the moment fortunately means that PMs would be terrified of committing large numbers of forces to an unpopular war, following Afg and Iraq, therefore a Parliamentary vote by elected officials is required.

      It is true that the Monarch does not formulate foreign policy or commit troops to war, but we are not so dull-headed that we would go wherever a PM sends us without questioning it at the top level. And I know of no-one (and I know a lot of servicemen and women) who would take up arms against their countryfolk on the orders of a foreign power, e.g. the EU. Which, lets be honest, is what we’re talking about.

      As I said the other day, the UK AF are a voluntary force, and recruitment for an EU army would be very sprse to say the least. Which basically means that if the EU wanted an army it would be conscripted, and therefore be less professional and full of resentment.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

        @DaveM; The Monarch hold no power, it has been ceded to the politicians (The, now, elected Government), your orders come from them, your oath is to them via the figure head of the Monarch, if there ever is a EU Army and you choose to resign then that is a private matter for you – but I find it strange that if Germany via NATO wanted you to carry out what ever you would be happy to obey but if Germany via the EU wanted you to carry out what ever you would object, by your logic you should object to both.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:52 am | Permalink

          Not ordered by Germany but agreed and commanded by the Armed Forces Chiefs in the UK
          Who in turn are commanded by the Prime Minister
          Elected by us here in the UK

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; Now who is being pedantic…

            Having signed up to NATO that agreement is a given, do you really think that request from a front line command post in Germany would go through three or four layers of command in 180 seconds, never mind being pout before MPs, try reading the NATO covariance, better still, try understanding it. The same would almost certainly be the case in any EU Army.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

            There is no automatic agreement.
            It requires the assent of the UK heads of the armed forces and ultimately the UK Prime Minister before troops from the UK can be deployed.
            Pedantic you say
            Fundamental I would say.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 8:53 am | Permalink

            @Edwards2; Now you are being daft, think about it, what possible ‘agreement’ can be reached in just 180 seconds from the first “incoming” alert…

            The whole NATO concept is based on mutual defence, an attack on one is an attack on all, that is why NATO and the national armed forces have joint command posts. Your ideas of what the NATO covariance means and operates would sink a NATO rowing boat in dry dock!

          • Edward2
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 11:39 am | Permalink

            Changing the angle of the argument now Jerry to NATOs response in thr event of a nuclear attack or missile attack of a non nuclear.nature.
            There are laid down procedures and the PM will still be responsible for deciding the response
            So different to the EU proposals.

        • Jerry
          Posted June 22, 2016 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

          @Edward2; Oh do stop digging that hole, all you are doing is proving that there are non so blind as those who chose not to see.

          So are you really saying that Estonia (for example, or significant parts of West Germany in the old days of the Cold War) could be over run by Russian Tanks before NATO would have had their inter-governmental command meetings and each members national parliaments have meet to consider and vote on what action should be taken etc – if so you are even more daft than I first thought.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

            You now have changed the angle of attack for the third time
            Let’s get back to basics
            NATO has previously agreed procedures to deal with emergencies.
            But no UK troops can be deployed without agreement of our elected representatives.
            The EU armed force would be very different
            I think you realise this difference but being pre EU you hope it doesn’t matter
            But it does

          • Jerry
            Posted June 23, 2016 at 7:40 am | Permalink

            Edward2; Tell me, just what do you think the role of NATO is?! You objected to the suggestion that its role was to defend against nuclear attack, now you object to talk about their role in defending against land based attack, no doubt you would try and call a foul if I started to talk about naval action too…

            You then try and divert talk to the respective histories of the EU and NATO as if that proves anything. Just for the record NATO was created in 1949, what we know today as the EU was born in 1948 out of the Hague Congress of that year (although the embryonic ‘EU’ had been conceived well before WW2 by a French politician [1], and indeed our own Winston Churchill spoke in support of a USoE around about the same time [2]), thus both NATO and the EU, under its many different names, have run parallel and often interconnected courses since the start.

            As for the ‘EU Army’ and NATO, how could they be “very different” when 20 or so of the 27 current members of NATO are likely to be a part of any EU Army, and of those other 5 many have close or direct economic ties to the EU, whilst the EU Army its self would still remain a part of NATO with the same command and control structures.

            Objections to the proposed EU Army are political, not military.

            Thus the only person wriggling like a worm, trying to change the direction of the debate at every point, is you Edward.

            [1] Aristide Briand b. 1862 d. 1932

            [2] although Churchill did say that he saw no reason why the UK needed to be a part, most likely because we had our Empire and thus had no reason to pool either sovereignty or resources.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 24, 2016 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

            @Jerry; “Objections to the proposed EU Army are political, not military.”

            …but of course if I’m wrong, now in this post Brexit era, this EU Army and any consequences it may or may not have for the NATO alliance is even more likely. Who was it who once said “Beware of unintended consequences”?!…

  24. Anonymous
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    In the final days of this referendum it is coming down to two issues:

    – the economy

    – immigration

    Mr Cameron says we must not wreck the economy to stop immigration. (words left out ed)

    The fact is that (and I’ve just responded to a ComRes telephone survey) the economy makes no difference to me if we persist in importing poverty by means of mass immigration.

    This is the thing with EU membership. It is all about the redistribution of our wealth and power by one means or another – or both.

    The exportation of wealth or the importation of poverty (in the form of people coming to share what wealth is left.)

    It makes no odds to the ordinary person which way they do it. Which is why threats about the economy have only limited reach.

    I have never witnessed such bullying contempt by the rich and privileged over ordinary people.

    Richard Branson doesn’t have a bloody clue what it’s like. Nor does David Cameron.

    Someone mentioned the closure of UK plants by BMW and I say so what ? They’ll probably do it anyway ten years hence (as Gillette did ten years past) and what will we have given up to suck up to bullies ? Our freedom and sovereignty.

    Some people understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

    • Mockbeggar
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:28 am | Permalink

      In the end it matters not if the economy improves (slightly) by leaving or improves (slightly more?) if we ‘remain’ – or vice versa. All the economic doomsters (Treasury, IMF etc) seem to be basing their forecasts on the same economic models which are fundamentally straight projections of current trends with some negative assumptions to get them rolling.

      But as I said at the beginning all this is small beer in the great argument which is: do we govern our own affairs (for good or ill) or do we let others do it for us?

      As Peter Hitchens said in a recent discussion on Radio 4, Sinn Fein didn’t consider the economic consequences of their demand for independence; they were fighting for a principle. That’s what we should fight for too. We can withstand any economic consequences sooner or later. And anyway, who knows what economic shocks lie in store for us if we remain? The future is the future and we will deal with it when it becomes the present.

      Incidentally, rumour has it that the Warsi apparently St Paul-like ‘conversion’ was a long term ploy; that she was always a ‘Remainer’ but kept her trap shut until a late stage in the game when she could achieve maximum publicity. Whether this was at the behest of more senior ‘Remainers’ or not I couldn’t say. What one can say is that to use the publication of an ill thought out and ill timed poster is scarcely a convincing reason for changing one’s mind on an issue as important as this. She must have a very shallow appreciation of the argument to be swayed by something as trivial as that.

      • graham1946
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

        I doubt Warsi will raise much enthusiasm for Remain and the photo is clearly an excuse. CMD seems to think she is great (and of course ethnicity is a handy plus). He is so out of touch he probably thinks we do as well.
        I wouldn’t be surprised to see a few more before Thursday.

    • Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

      “the closure of UK plants by BMW and I say so what ? They’ll probably do it anyway ten years hence”

      We need to remember that Ford closed down its entire Transit factory in Southampton and moved it lock stock and barrel to Turkey.

      That Southampton factory built the entire supply of Transits for the whole of the EU. These vehicles, destined for buyers across the whole EU, will now be built outside the EU.

      This proves two points :

      1. it cannot be any more difficult to import vehicles manufactured in a country outside the EU than it is to manufacture them within the EU.

      2. Multi-National companies will have a tendency to eventually take manufacturing where their production costs are lowest, irrespective of whether the country is inside or outside the EU.

  25. Lifelogic
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    So if we stay in we have a choice:-

    Jeremy Corbyn says there is no ‘upper limit’ to EU migration if we stay in the EU.
    Or we have David Cameron who promises “no if no buts to the tens of thousands” but in fact is totally powerless and clearly does not even try, despite his dishonest promise to the nation. He even seems to think we have control through Schengen as we can make them show a passport as they are waved through anyway. What difference does that make?

    We must surely vote for Brexit to create some betters options. Gove is being very statesman like – can we have him please. He has quite a good grasp of the way the World works, especially for an English graduate.

    Not that I am against sensible and quality controlled immigration so long as it is under UK democratic control.

  26. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Some MEPs are planning a resolution to say that the European Council should not wait for a formal notification that the UK intends to leave the EU, but should instead consider Article 50 TEU to be triggered when Cameron tells them that we have voted to leave.

    https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/133891

    That rather ignores a number of legal issues, including our domestic legal issue that we won’t be absolutely sure of the final referendum result for at least the six weeks during which legal challenges could be lodged, the very last provision in the European Union Referendum Act 2015:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/schedule/3

    “Restriction on challenge to referendum result”

    Not so absolutely certain that the government could responsibly take any effectively irreversible action such as putting in the Article 50 notice.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:56 am | Permalink

      Denis Cooper; But surely Cameron will not be making that “formal notification that the UK intends to leave” until (your suggested six weeks period is over and) the official result is a legal reality, your comment is thus nonsensical.

      Reply The UK establishment is minded to go for an early Article 50 submission, which we wish to stop.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:53 am | Permalink

        What is nonsensical is the suggested resolution.

        https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/133891

        “Another source told EUobserver that in case of Brexit, the parliament could propose a resolution saying that article 50 of the Lisbon treaty should be seen as having been triggered as soon as British prime minister David Cameron informs other EU leaders about the result of the vote.”

        • Jerry
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

          @Denis Cooper; Sorry but your position is nonsensical because you like others have spent the last god knows how many years wanting a Brexit but now (assuming that is the result on Thursday) you are objecting to the PM activating Article 50 to achieve a Brexit.

          Of course -and our host has let the cat out of the bag here I suspect, with talk of objecting to an early Article 50 submission- the issue is not the activation of the A50 per se but who does it. Before A50 is activated you want to have ‘your man’ in No. 10.

          With all this talk about wishing (or is the need) to jump back into bed with the EU post Brexit, and now not wanting to activate Article 50 after any Brexit vote, the wheels are falling off the whole Brexit argument – Of course Mr Juncker, having signed up to our free trade deal and your “Four Freedoms”, like Norway and Switzerland, how high do you wish the UK to jump when you say jump?

          That is not a Brexit in most peoples book, just a change in who leads the Conservative party and who is the UK PM until 2020.

          Reply Exit by UK legislation us faster and more reliable than using a Treaty we are renouncing.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:13 am | Permalink

            Nothing I said in my post in any way resembled “objecting to the PM activating Article 50 to achieve a Brexit.”

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:18 am | Permalink

            @JR reply; Indeed, and that is an option but we will never get any meaningful trade agreement out of the EU that way, that is why it seems so strange to be both objecting to the use (early or otherwise) of A50 but also wanting -nay, expecting- a trade deal that will not leave the UK in hooks to the EU on worse terms than our full membership.

            Also, if A50 is obviously going to drag on without quick and meaningful goals being obtained (the often quoted A50 two year period is a maximum period, not how long it will take) surely the UK could still use UK legislation to exit, citing the core freedoms of the UN charter if needs be – so once gain, there is no reason to object to Cameron starting A50 negotiations unless the real reason is you mistrust the chief negotiator and wish to replace him.

            Reply THe fact that so many pro EU people want us to use Article 50 makes me sense it is important we use a different route.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

            @JR reply; Other than of course, for europhiles., A50 being the official mechanism of withdrawal, so what is so strange in them wishing to use it!

  27. oldtimer
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    A related topic; Spiegel Online discussing Jean-Clause Juncker here:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-commission-president-juncker-under-fire-a-1098232.html

    We have been warned. It is a measure of the arbitrary nature of several aspects of Commission behaviour.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:48 am | Permalink

      “EU legal experts have cast doubt on some of his methods”

      In that case it must be pretty bad, EU legal experts aren’t usually too bothered about the EU treaties and laws being not just bent but broken.

      Juncker is there because Major agreed with the other leaders that the Parliament could have effective control over the appointment of the Commission. It wasn’t the Lisbon Treaty, as Cameron pretended, it was the Maastricht Treaty.

  28. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    I see Baroness Warsi has switched sides today. Just what she did for the Leave side anyway is beyond me. I had never heard any of her views. Still, she has made an impact on a very important week and I feel that is all her involvement might have been about. Making trouble.

    This week will be very challenging for all Leave supporters as more and more desperate figures will emerge from the ‘experts’ claiming that our economy will be left in a bereft state if we vote Leave. Much is being made of the sad death and murder of Jo Cox and I am sure some will milk it for all it is worth this week. She had her opinions and justly so but it will not change my mind set. I just hope that everyone stands solidly behind their convictions and still votes as they intended to leave. As you point out John, it will be our last and only chance to save what we can of our country and I firmly believe that once all the turmoil of change is completed we will be a much better off country with the British people once more in charge. I actually feel rather nervous of the outcome and worry that we will remain in to our detriment.

    Reply As Baroness Varsi confirmed in an interview this morning, she turned down requests by Vote Leave to join our events. She says she has switched from Vote Leave which she never appears top have joined, owing to a poster which Vote Leave did not put up or support!

    • Jerry
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:50 am | Permalink

      @JR reply; But no one has to “join” a campaign to have an opinion, but yes I do feel sorry that Brexit have to cope with this ‘apparent switch’ but then have they not brought this on themselves, perhaps if the decent people wanting a Brexit had distanced themselves from and refused to use/go down the same avenues of ‘arguments’ that have been used by UKIP people like Baroness Varsi would not have felt the need to publicly distance themselves from the entire Brexit cause today (never mind perhaps feeling uncomfortable standing on the same platform in the past). The Brexit campaign has brought this ‘damnation’ upon themselves.

      Reply If you a public figure and declare for Remain or Vote Leave you participate in their campaign and appear for them. Baroness Varsi never did this for Vote Leave, so she was clearly not a Vote Leave supporter.

      • margaret
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:15 am | Permalink

        ah! a ploy I see.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:41 am | Permalink

        @JR reply; Obviously, but why did she think she could not publicly stand on the same platform, put her name to Brexit and the message they have been giving. Are you trying to say -without actually saying it- that you know for sure that Baroness Varsi has always been in support of the UK remaining in the EU.

        Reply All I can be sure about is she did not agree to do an event with or for Vote Leave, implying she had no commitment to the campaign. When asked to do things for Vote Leave I do them, or offer an alternative if there is a diary clash with my Parliamentary and MP duties.

        • SumSense
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:51 am | Permalink

          It follows that she never had very strong opinions about this issue anyway, so her changing sides this way or that is really neither here nor there, and certainly not worth the coverage it’s received.

        • forthurst
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

          Whatever, clearly the Remain campaign have a schedule of mud to fling between now and the Referendum, of which Warsi is the first pat. All she has confirmed is that the Remainers are a bunch of odious and unprincipled individuals who can lie before breakfast, lunch and dinner to achieve an ignoble objective favoured by every English-hater on the planet.

          • bluedog
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

            Was Warsi offered a renewed Cabinet post if she publicly declared for Remain just before the vote? If so, consistent with the values and methods of Remain.

      • Cliff. Wokingham.
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:33 am | Permalink

        Jerry,

        Whether the Baroness liked or not liked the poster, it can still not justify a complete reversal of opinion.
        Consider this, if I were a vegetarian and supported leave, would watching Mr Farage eating a meat pie on TV justify me supporting the remain side?

        Whether one agrees with the poster or not, the fundamental issues and reasons to leave or stay remain the same and I feel nothing but contempt for those who have switched sides and cited one minor event or poster to justify that switch.

        • Jerry
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

          @Cliff. Wokingham; “and cited one minor event or poster to justify that switch.”

          One minor event or poster to you perhaps but not to others, nor is it just one event or poster, UKIP have made at least the last 6 years about migration, this wasn’t the first poster of this kind either.

          • Cliff. Wokingham.
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

            And your view on my final paragraph is…?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

            @Cliff. Wokingham.; As I said, this was not “one minor event or poster”, that poster was (hopefully) the last in a long line of such posters [1] over the last 6 years at least, so your contempt is misplaced.

            Try actually reading what I said next time!

            [1] Remember that UKIP poster of the white cliffs at Dover with the escalator rising from the beach for example?

      • Anonymous
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:58 am | Permalink

        Jerry – Do you not get it ? Do you not see what has happened in this referendum ?

        How about these headlines from the Twittersphere then:

        “Baroness Varsi decides to leave the Spice Girls”

        “Baroness Varsi decides not to participate in the Olympics”

        “Baroness Varsi decides to quit the SAS”

        Richard. Leave have brought nothing on themselves. This is third world banana republic scheming by the British establishment that they are having to deal with.

    • ian wragg
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:30 am | Permalink

      Remind me again, who voted for her………………………………… thought so

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

        @ian wragg; “Remind me again, who voted for [Baroness Varsi]….”

        Remind me who voted for either The Lord Stevens of Ludgate, The Lord Willoughby de Broke or The Lord Pearson of Rannoch. Yet another one of your ill thought through “Do as I we say, not as we do” UKIP rants….

        • NickW
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

          Describing someone else’s statement as a rant is a demonstration that you are guilty of the bigotry which you claim to see in others.

          It is possible to disagree politely.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

            Unfortunately when Jerry loses an argument he accuses others of having a rant.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:30 am | Permalink

            @Edwward2; Unfortunately, Edward2, once again, you jump in with both feet, with nothing but snide accusation rather than actual facts. Care to inform us were I have “lost the argument” above, are those three appointed Lords not pledged to, or already speaking for UKIP in the HoLs?

          • Edward2
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 11:38 am | Permalink

            You accuse many on here of having a “rant” when you are either losing the argument or they simply say something you disagree with.
            That is the point I’m making.
            You need to be a bit more calm.

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; But it was a rant, because Mr Wragg used some baseless logic to complain that someone he dislikes had been appointed but not elected, when UKIP are as happy to have their own unelected politicos. Sorry if the truth hurt you and NickW.

          • Patrick Geddes
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 7:25 am | Permalink

            The UKIP example is where a party selects candidates to stand as an MP or they are asked to nominate someone for elevation to the House of Lords.
            The power held by the House of Lords is tiny by comparison to EU Commissioners who are not elected.

    • formula57
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:54 am | Permalink

      I remain stunned that the government survived the Baroness’s resignation as a minister although I was hardly consious she was in office (except when her gaffs were reported) and cannot say I have missed her since she left. I suspect I will be able to say the same about the EU.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

        @formula57; That comment just might say far more about how little you follow British politics than it does anything about the Baroness!

        • formula57
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

          It might, but in fact it does not. (Happy to help, of course.)

          • Jerry
            Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

            @formula57; Oh right, so you have never head of someone who used to speak for the Government in the Lords (at the despatch box), not very attentive are you! But then perhaps you only ever get your political coverages from the likes of the Daily Politics….

          • Edward2
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 11:40 am | Permalink

            Oh dear is the Daily Politics now off limits due to bias Jerry?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; Did I claim bias?! The problem with the Daily Politics is that it has limited scope, not helped by being rather ‘tabloid’ in its coverage. It is not the best of example of political PSB, unlike either the BBC-P channel as a whole or BBC Radio Four and their Today in Parliament programmes if you want to know who has said what and when, only bettered by actually reading Hansard

            If you only ever watch the highlights of anything you’ll only ever see the selected parts.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

            Oh well if you say so then Jerry I will stop watching it.
            Presumably only you can watch it without being hypnotised and taken in.
            Do you think others are so thick as not to be able to listen to a programme without being fooled?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 9:17 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; “Presumably only you can watch it without being hypnotised and taken in.”

            Not just me, anyone who has had proper media or journalistic production training will look at such content differently to the way the average viewer does. Both you and I see politics for example from the outside, our host sees it all quite differently I bet.

            “Do you think others are so thick as not to be able to listen to a programme without being fooled?”

            I probably shouldn’t answer that but…. Judging by how many people watch and get passionately involved in so called reality shows like Big Brother, The Real Housewives of xyz, TOWIE and non competitions such as the X Factor, yes quite a few do seem to swallow the given message without a further thought, in the same way as they swallow fast food, it might not taste especially good, might not be very good for ones health, but it fills that hunger hole – but with just a little bit of effort and planning they could have spent less and had a half decent and healthy meal!

          • Edward2
            Posted June 22, 2016 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

            Sorry, I forgot what an expert you are.
            I will take great care when watching TV to avoid being brainwashed.
            I must get some “proper media and journalistic media production training” as soon as possible.

    • Qubus
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:55 am | Permalink

      The murder of Jo Cox is truly a terrible deed, and I feel the deepest sympathy for her husband and poor children. However, is it really any worse that the equally brutal murder of Lee Rigby?

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

      REply to reply. John, fly in the ointment comes to mind.

  29. Bert Young
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    When rain falls the rats will often desert their nests . The latest swing in the polls will cause many to put “Xs” in the box they would otherwise have done so ; politicians hell bent to protect their positions are no different – livelihood will be placed ahead of principle .

    I am half way through Daniel Hannan’s “Leave” book . I am impressed with the detail he has produced ridiculing the EU and its systems ; all it does is confirm the solid views I have always held that it is a defunct regime that we should not belong to or support in any way . Today Parliament has the opportunity to discipline Cameron following his disgusting tying of the murder of an MP to the “Leave” campaign . I hope enough signatures result in his downfall .

    • Lifelogic
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      Surely no one who has read this book (or listened to it as I did while driving) can still vote for remain could they?

      Free with a new account on Audible.com

    • stred
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      Perhaps someone could remind Cameron that Farage said last year that Syrian Christian and other persecuted genuine refugees should be welcomed. The poster being spun as racist showed a mass movement of people, most of whom were economic migrants, invited to move by Mrs Merkel.

      The result has been a disaster for the EU and the Germans are now proposing to enforce qutas for other countries with enormous charges (not fines) for non compliance. Within 5 years many will have EU passports and will be move to English speaking countries with jobs and benefits.

      Unlimited immigration means apparently high growth, lower wages and more votes for Labour. No wonder big business and Labour are in favour and playing dirty.

      • NickW
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

        The left took 1984 to be an instruction manual, not an apocryphal warning.

        UKIP members and Nigel Farage are now the subject of the left’s “5 minute hate”.

        They have competitions to outdo each other in hatred. Not a pretty sight.

  30. James Barr
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    John,

    Thank you for another good post.

    At it’s core, this vote is a referendum on whether we believe in the primacy of nation states.

    It is a vote on the right of citizens to elect and to dismiss their representatives.

    The EU was established to subsume the nations of Europe into a vast supranational organization, run by a Colbertist elite.

    True democracy only works on the basis of government of the people, by the people, for the people. The EU is the antithesis of this base concept.

    As for experts, they are invariably wrong. None of them predicted the financial crisis; they were so smart they let Greece join the EU; they told us the ERM was a marvelous idea; they told us to join the euro. They have been wrong on each of these issues, and many others.

    The scaremongering of Cameron and Osborne, not to mention the unsavory linking of the horrific event of last Thursday to those who support Leave, is both undignified and pathetic.

    And finally, Cameron’s negotiations with the EU are not legally binding.

    I believe in the primacy of the UK parliament and will be voting to leave.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:59 am | Permalink

      To quote from the 1644 Soldier’s Catechism:

      “I fight for the preservation of our parliament, in the being whereof (under God) consists the glory and welfare of this kingdom. If this foundation be overthrown, we shall soon be the most slavish nation in the Christian world.”

      Either one supports the sovereignty of our Parliament as the central institution of our national democracy – even if many of those who have got into it betray us by denying its sovereignty – or one supports the primacy of the EU and thereby makes oneself an enemy of our national democracy.

  31. Atlas
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    From last night’s TV programme with Cameron I noticed that the “Punishment-beating” Budget after Brexit is still on the cards.

    • Cliff. Wokingham.
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

      Indeed however, if Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne believe that people like me will sacrifice our nation’s sovereignty and democracy in favour of a foreign, unelected dictatorship in order to keep a free bus pass and a Two Hundred Pound winter fuel payment, they have misjudged my generation. I would rather freeze to death than remain part of a soviet inspired European Socialist Super state.
      During my lifetime, I have never known a British Prime Minister to be so wrong on so many things and to treat the electorate with such contempt.
      I fear that the sad murder of Jo Cox has swung the vote towards remain however, if the leave campaign did secure a victory, which I hope it can, Mr Cameron must not be allowed to have any involvement in the exit negotiations.
      Kate Hoey suggested a cross party group of Brexiters should conduct the negotiations and I would back that idea. Extraordinary situations require extraordinary solutions.

    • graham1946
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

      Yes, and so is the 2020 election.

  32. rose
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    You would think it was a simple choice: independence or foreign rule; but according to Lady Warsi this morning it depends on a poster, so she is now opting for foreign rule, having been for independence before.

    As it happens, I wouldn’t have seen this poster if the media and politicians hadn’t been falling over themselves to say how disgusting it was. But when I did see it, what jumped out at me was not what they were all going on about, the race, but the sex of the people in it. They were all young men, so obviously not refugees, even though Shirley Williams assured us on Sunday that they were fleeing children.

    That imbalance in the influx is what we are not allowed to discuss or even to know, and cases of sexual assault which come before the courts, even when the vicitms are minors, are hushed up, across Northern Europe.

    • graham1946
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

      Great point. These people are refugees – they are running from having fight for their country.

  33. Mick
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    I now see all the media are making a big issue of warsi leaving the outers for the inners, so what she’s a nobody who most people don’t have a clue who she is, I personally think she was a plant by Cameron and told to strike at the first opportunity near to Independence Day, well shame on you Cameron this is another last ditch of desperation that isn’t going to work, as for the UKIP poster it’s there to scare people because this is the truth irrespective of the make up of the mix of migrants in it, this is nothing compared to the amount of migrants that are in the wings waiting to come here, and guess what people we won’t be able to do a bloody thing about it because this is what the dreaded eu want

  34. Roy Grainger
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I see the Guardian today are saying “Brexit will make UK the most hated country in the world”. So that’s more hated than North Korea and Zimbabwe then. The Guardian has an overinflated Little Englander view of UK’s significance in the world, I doubt billions of people living in China or India or Nigeria for example could care less. Even if true UK is already hated by Guardian readers so they should welcome the support.

    • ian wragg
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      I think it’s probably true that many countries will hate us.
      When people see the Union Flag they are reminded of a decent country that doesn’t produce dictators.
      A people that are tolerant and kind in a land of filthy weather.
      To be hated by the great and good of Brussels and the Obumma administration is an honour indeed.
      Vote Leave……..Take Control.

      • Jerry
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

        @Ian Wragg; “When people see the Union Flag they are reminded of a decent country that doesn’t produce dictators.”

        No, just an Empire that covered much of the globe, when the Empire was not being used to supply slaves (until the enlightened Jeremy Corbyn’s and Jo Cox’s of the day managed to change societies opinions) the Empires natural resources were pillaged for use in the ‘mother land’ to fuel her might and expand the empire even further – so no, Great Britain never needed to produce dictators, if you say so….

        • Patrick Geddes
          Posted June 21, 2016 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

          You seem to enjoy belittling and sneering at this fine country Jerry
          I dont know why you live here if you dislike its history its traditions its Monarchy its Government its democracy and now its Empire from many years ago so much.
          Is there a nation you feel is better ?

          • Jerry
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

            @Patrick Geddes; Telling the truth is not belittling, it takes courage to fess up to past mistakes, to see and understand ourselves as others already see us and we can be great again, try to calibrate our mistakes like some are and we will be ignored.

          • Patrick Geddes
            Posted June 21, 2016 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

            Is there a nation you feel is better?

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      Roy, if you took any notice of the Eurovision song contest you would see that we already the most hated country in Europe!! Let’s see how they get along without us. They needed us before and they will need us again.

      • Chris S
        Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

        fedupsoutherner :

        You sound a bit like CMD, running our country down :

        This year we were only the third most hated country in the Eurovision song contest !

        The Czech Republic was the second but it was Merkel’s Germany that won the wooden spoon. It was an emphatic win as well : The jury of only one country gave Germany any points at all.

        It was only one point and it was from Georgia. I wonder why ?????

        The UK was awarded 41 points by the juries of ten different Countries.
        It is interesting to note that none of those points came from our so-called “friends” in any of the large EU member states.

        • fedupsoutherner
          Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

          Chris S. I am not running our country down but merely trying to point out that much of Europe is not our friend. Why do we want to belong to a club that clearly has no respect for us and all they can do is threaten us with plague and pestilence if we dare to leave? It is not the rest of the world we need to be afraid of but the attitude of our near neighbours. There is much about this country that is great and by leaving we will show them as much. There is nothing CMD has said that I agree with.

    • Cheshire Girl
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

      If we are deemed to be ‘the most hated country in the world’ then those countries who think like that wont want to receive our foreign aid. Even when finances are tight in the UK, we have always found money for those in other countries who are in desperate straits. Frankly, I think that we are giving money to some countries that hate us and everything we stand for,

      For months I have watched debates in Parliament, read all strains of opinion in the newspapers, read thousands of comments on the web, and nothing has persuaded me that we are better off or safer in the EU. Consequently, I shall still be voting OUT on Thursday.

  35. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    The referendum question WAS simple.

    If it is a vote for Remain, it means the various “experts” will pat themselves on the back, stay in place or be promoted. Aside from continued membership of the EU this is the greatest threat to these islands.

    It will mean, their political and interactive positions will be institutionally and personally set in cement. They will be incapable of reacting as never before against all evidence indicating their position is not credible. Perhaps others, more enlightened than themselves will fear to put their heads above the parapet. They will be warned,
    “We’ve been all through this,- this is what you argued before, your view is discredited, the British people do not support you”
    So, the future if we Remain looks bleak indeed.

    Mr Farage, this morning on BBC, indicated “it’s a once and forever referendum ” and he was pushed to say that if we left the EU in the future we would be bulldozed into it by the likes of Denmark deciding to exit in a lead position.

    I believe he is wrong. I realise the pundits across the “expert-economist” sphere have debilitated and funneled their analytic minds to phrases such as “boom and bust” and even a newbie to economics such as Mr Osborne can foresee an economic downturn “sometime or other” but none can see something far more disastrous economically.

    The EU and, the USA ,if Trump is not elected will drag the world economy down to such depths pundits and politicians will try to delete their former expressed opinions. They will seek speeches where they complained that “we do not have enough information”

  36. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    CNBC, CNN, BBC, Skynews, are blasting away that because of “recent polls” where they say Remain have a couple of percentage points lead that:-
    1. .Worlds stock markets are soaring.
    2. The Gold Price is dipping down
    3. The World oil price is ..doing something or other as a result
    4. Japan’s stock market on this gambling poll information is soaring
    5. The Pound is soaring
    6. The US dollar has “gone down a bit ”

    Now these news and business outlets such as CNBC are one way or another the “Collective Wisdom” of world finance. Oh my word, so, the world economy is dependent on a flutter at the bookies in a horserace that has never been run before.
    There will be a world deep depression with these “experts” in control. You can bet on it.

  37. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    What is not simple is why certain Brexiteers at this late hour are coming out with gibberish:

    1. The idea from Boris and Kate Hoey, the latter on BBC Daily Politics today, saying that persons who have entered our country illegally and stayed illegally for 12 years are going to have their 12 years of illegal behaviour forgiven and also continue to consume the booty of their criminal acts by being given the Right to Stay here.

    2 The idea that the thousands who marched across European countries, present in those countries illegally, violating in some cases graveyards and churches, walking and trampling down crops ( they must never try that in England in my locality, the farmers come out with guns against a lone dog walker ) that to refer to their wicked and dishonest behaviour country after country is RACISM and “despicable”

    3. That to refer to the mass rapes in Cologne, is racism

    4. The British government has still not responded effectively to the rapes in Rotherham. Little wonder some people turn a blind eye to rapes in Germany and Sweden, Denmark, France.
    What have these persons to say to the parents of the 10 year old boy who was sodomised, raped in a swimming pool changing room by an asylum seeker in the EU.He, the asylum seeker, said “it was an emergency”…he had “not had sex for three months”

    What stuffed up constipated disgusting nonsense some Brexiteers are capable of voicing.

  38. Dave Andrews
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Dear John, can you explain how we can control immigration post Brexit, given that we currently can’t control non-EU immigration?

    • sjb
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

      I think this is a point of confusion among those intending to Vote Leave. Some supporters think control means reducing immigration whereas I think Gove & Johnson (both of whom are strongly pro-immigration) mean that the UK is the sole authority in determining who comes in.

      The non-EU element, which you correctly point out is under our control, currently runs at 188,000 per year. Should we leave the EU then it seems to me that UK-based companies will ‘import’ workers with the skills they claim cannot be found in British workers from non-EU countries; some contributors to this site regularly point out the case of Indian IT workers, for example.

      It is not clear to me the extent of the proposed residency rights of the worker’s family – e.g. spouse, spouse + children, spouse + children + dependent relatives etc. It would have helped if Gove et al had provided better particulars rather than the rather vague “points system”.

  39. Kenneth
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    So, why are they known as faceless bureaucrats?

    That’s because they have no constituency. They can make decisions that affect millions of people over vast regions yet, they will decline an invitation to speak on a tv or radio news programme. Why should they be known to the public when they have no voters to worry about?

    These people who stay in the shadows are the people who we are handing our lives to if we remain in the anti European eu.

  40. MickN
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Reading of Baroness Varsi’s stand this morning I felt I should offer her my support. Therefore through your blog I wish to announce that with immediate effect I am no longer a member of the Chippendales.!

  41. Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    I’ve just spent 20 hours in the air flying back from the Far East. Landing at LHR at 06:20 this morning to hear that Warsi has switched sides.

    She, of course has form, having resigning from the Cabinet at a time deeply inconvenient to CMD. Now she’s clearly trying to rehabilitate herself with Cameron by switching sides.

    One would have thought from the reaction to Woolerston’s similar switch, she would have realised that this would be seen as nothing more than unprincipalled political opportunism, rather than out of any deeply held view.

    I doubt whether CMD or any future Conservative PM would trust her enough to give her a job on the basis of her record.

    As an aside, I can see no reason why the BBC should not allow licence payers access to BBC output via the iPlayer while abroad. They may well cite royalties in the case of drama programmes, but this could be easily resolved by requiring us to enter a valid licence number and password. However, royalties cannot be used as an excuse to deprive those of us away on holiday or business of news and current affairs output.

    I have not been able to see any of the important debates held over the last 21 days. Why ?

    • Jerry
      Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      @Chris S; My understanding is that once the BBC iPlayer has been tied to a valid TVL number (as will be allowed, once the Charter is renewed) you will be able to access the iPlayer from outside of the UK, much to the disgust of those who wish to use the current loop-hole in the law to avoid paying the TVL fee here in the UK!

      Also, could you access news and current affairs content from the ITV, Ch4, Ch5 and SkyNews UK player, if not then perhaps the problem was actually your end, you have not said were in the Far Easter you were?

  42. A.Sedgwick
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Being in my seventies my vote to leave is not that I am concerned for my future well being but for younger generations. It is very disturbing that Cameron and Osborne, who clearly have some level of intelligence, are so misguided as to promote Remain. Their performances, bending of the rules and ignoring of the blindingly obvious makes me despair of politics. If Remain win there will be continued excessive immigration, massive and uncontrollable pressure on the NHS, housing, schools, social services and the complete change of this country’s culture built up over a millenium. The slow absorbing of immigrants over centuries is part of our culture and being an island nation we have beeen able to offer sanctuary to many persecuted people as well as a reasonable number seeking a better life. They are part of our culture. If Remain win I see little point in refurbishing the Palace of Westminster.

  43. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Tomorrow at 8pm (BBC ) in the Wembley Arena seating 12,500, a mighty debate will take place.
    A TUC person will be on the Remain team.

    The Brexit Campaign, for Labour voters and trades unionists, should have nailed it to the mast by now that the Tolpuddle Martryrs were not French agricultural workers living around Émile Zola’s birthplace in Paris and that the ORIGINAL Chartists were not Czechs living in the birthplace of Jaroslav Hašek, in Bohemia. And their movements were far in advance, before it was even a gleam in the eye of Ex-PM of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg Jean-Claude Juncker.
    The TUC , Labour Movement, has forgotten its singular history, its martyrs not just those in Tolpuddle, but thousands sacked and blacklisted from jobs and food for their families, even being evicted from their homes as were coalmine workers living very close to me, sleeping in the snow with their children because they went on strike against an African slave-owning coalmine owner. To say “shame on the TUC and the Labour Party” are not strong enough words.

  44. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Mr Cameron and those who have known a deceased person “for years, nay that’s nowt, for decades, nay..that’s nowt known her whilst still in the womb. Yer wot? knew her before she was even thought of…prob’ly a good ten year afore that …etc are not aware that if not a British tradition and custom, it is most certainly, definitely a Yorkshire tradition that mourning is essentially a private affair.
    Any variance is deemed sordid….unbecoming. Curtains along the path of the hearse are drawn. Amongst other reasons to give respect both to giving the opportunity to pay respect by the deceased family to neighbours and friends but also for the neighbours and friends to show respect by not looking. So many features of our people are perhaps contradictory to a foreigner to Yorksahire as Mr Cameron and his lot are and will be for ever more.Foreign.

  45. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    I was listening to Jeremy Vine at lunch time today and it would seem that many people in Europe would like us to leave so we can lead the way for them. Interesting. The Irish, the Dutch and some Germans think we should vote leave. I hope a lot of people were listening.

  46. MickN
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if I am the only one that has noticed that many of those preaching respect for Jo Cox today are the same people who were dancing on Lady Thatcher’s grave at her passing.

    • Jerry
      Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

      @MickN; Do carry on, you are doing a great job at getting people to vote Remain on Thursday, and most likely Labour at the next election!…

  47. graham1946
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Seems like Nicola Sturgeon has at last realised she has dropped a clanger. Pity. She has been saying for weeks that should the English have the temerity to vote Leave and the Scots don’t it could signal another Scottish referendum. However, the penny now drops that the Scots may latch onto this and vote ‘Leave’ to achieve just this outcome and she is now in headless chicken mode trying to get her Scots voters to vote ‘Remain’.

    Hoist with her own petard comes to mind. Perhaps not the political genius she’s cracked up to be.

  48. ian
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Lexington Boston, 72 killed and two hundred injured because of the new gun law that came into force last week on assault weapons.
    National guard went into to town to confiscate guns from citizens going door to door but government force had to retreat as the citizens opened fire on them.
    Was that not the place where the last American revolution took place in 1775.
    I don’t think they will be paying their taxes this year.

  49. Mick
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    I still see there’s a total blackout in the migrant issue
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681614/Calais-migrants-refugees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016
    This is what the public should be told, and not after June 23rd

  50. Chris
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Daily Telegraph just come out for Leave (editorial posted online 9.30pm).

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/20/vote-leave-to-benefit-from-a-world-of-opportunity/

  51. turbo terrier
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    When Branson bangs on about 500m customers and the worlds biggest market, why o why isn’t somebody asking him “how many people are in the rest of the world”?

    The B******t Broadcasting Company are making Farage the scapegoat but the poster was surely about all the European borders and the total mess that the open hello especially from Merkal has created.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted June 21, 2016 at 6:19 am | Permalink

      93% of people live outside the EU, and although many are still poor 80% of world output is outside the EU. But you shouldn’t be looking outside the EU, according to the Remain camp; they want your eyes fixed on the 7% and the 20%.

  52. CHRISTOPHER HOUSTON
    Posted June 20, 2016 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Now for the downside:
    Things the EU are good at where successive British governments are not;-

    1. Education…British governments had to be pulled shouting and screaming into Headmaster EU’s room to prevent them from abusing children by corporeal punishment. And barbarian teaching unions still call for a right to stick children at their own personal desire
    2.Water supply and cleanliness of beaches and seashore. It was Labour’s Daily Mirror who complained repeatedly and bitterly about the EU “interfering with our water supply” ;” “compelling us ( the UK ) to make needless and extremely expensive changes to clean up beaches, and rivers and ensuring a clean water supply. At the time raw effluent was being poured into rivers near my home and intact human faeces washed up on Bridlington beaches every single day.
    3. Nothing else

    Now for the upside of leaving:
    1. People we vote for in our own Parliament can be voted in or out for negligence of the above. Our Parliament can have persons arrested and imprisoned without the EU saying no,- because it is against their human rights and their conduct in employment “underpinned” and protected by EU legislation. It should be noted the EU has never called for the imprisonment and punishment of anyone in the teaching profession who regularly beat children at any time in those awful fearful years.

    2. We can stop immigration from the EU in 3 to 9 years time, depending which country asylum seekers registered…as they become EU passport holders..from automatically entering our country. One or two of them will be “sleepers” ( terrorists biding their time until they gain access to us )

    3. Our advantage as British is that we can think ahead. Not like the EU.

    4. The next teacher calling for physical punishment of a child can have British police watch him, where he goes, what he views on the internet, who he meets without being subject to EU legislation on “Surveillance”

  53. ian
    Posted June 21, 2016 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    Car dealer in the USA giving way semi assault rifle with every new car sold, USA vote down new gun laws.

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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