The EU does not care about its citizens

Giving the cold shoulder to the Prime Minister was juvenile. Refusing to reassure all EU citizens living in each other’s countries that they can stay after Brexit was morally repulsive.

I assume even the EU would not stoop so low as to demand the departure of UK citizens from othe EU countries once we leave. It would be against decency,morality and probably international law. So why don’t they just say so? Their refusal shows the PM was wise not to assume they would.

The UK has made clear it is happy for all legally settled EU migrants in the UK to stay. So why can’t the others say the same about British migrants?

At the same time, why can’t the rest of the EU reassure business that they have no wish to damage their trade with us?Again they put their own institution above the needs and wishes of businesses, employees and customers around their Union.

It certainly strengthens the case for leaving. These people clearly do not want the best for their citizens. They use them as pawns in their macabre political game. I thought the EU’s idea was to  take our money in order to give us some service. Once again it looks as if the opposite is true.


  1. mickc
    December 17, 2016

    The EU countries wish to “punish” Britain for the democratic decision of the British people to leave.
    It is odd therefore that we, as NATO members, are obligated to defend those countries if they are attacked….presumably by Russia, an event so unlikely as to be inconceivable. Russia poses no threat to UK interests in any case.
    If no satisfactory and amicable deal can be agreed with the EU, the UK should withdraw from its military obligations to those countries. It would be madness to continue a liability to those who seek to harm us.

    1. zorro
      December 17, 2016

      Absolutely, let them defend themselves from their shadows. Stop payments as well for the meals and anything else they exclude us from. It is the only language they understand. They want our money and that is it.


      1. Hope
        December 18, 2016

        Two increases in council tax equating to eight and half percent on top of huge insurance premium tax rises. Where do we ordinary people find the money? Where do the elderly people find the money? LAs we’re going to use CIL and NHB for these sort of issues. Now they waste on vanity projects around the country and the Tory govt wants to have Mayors that we rejected brought about by the EU regionalisation plan that we rejected! Listening, caring about the people they have labelled JAM? Utter lies. We need an election and a Donald to come forward or a Nigel. The elite swamp at Westminster needs to be cleared.

    2. Hope
      December 17, 2016

      Intelligence and military cooperation should all be in the mix for negotiation. I am at the point to leave without negotiation and trade on WTO rules. Seal our borders now.

      Off topic when is May going to stop the travesty of former soldiers being investigated for allegations in Ireland when so many killers were allowed to wAlk free from jail under another Blaire mess up? Perhaps Blaire should have issued a few letters to soldiers. It is beyond belief the harm Blaire has caused, on the quiet, this country.

    3. getahead
      December 17, 2016

      Not Russia. Don’t believe the BBC or any of the programmed media.
      Our real enemy is among us.

      1. Hope
        December 18, 2016

        Spot on. BBC proganda unti is so far from the mark it is like watching a fictional story of good and evil in a world where there is no gender, no family, no nations an arch syndicate collective of pink utopia. But of course all the levies and elite at the swamp to be paid handsomely to tell the plebs what they think and how they should live by their fictional rules.

    4. nigel seymour
      December 18, 2016

      Agree with a lot that is said. Farage made the point when he gave his now legendary (ok, nearly!) address to the EUP regarding the lack of laughter from the majority of MEP’s. Have europeans ever had a sense of humour anyway? Theresa has a lot of learning to do in the coming weeks/months and I expect all Tory MP’s (and house) to support her with Art50. Today the MOS spelt out the situation re foreign aid and the corruption that abounds…UK GDP SPENDING POWER IS CIRCA $2.6 TRILLION. We don’t seem to have too many friends at the moment – thay all want our money though!!

  2. Dame Rita Webb
    December 17, 2016

    Thats really generous of the UK to guarantee residence to all those EU citizens over here now. Will the UK be getting a big fat golden handshake in return for allowing the rump EU to permanently offload certain members of its criminal classes and those work shy citizens that find our welfare machine pays out more money than back home?

    1. Diane Shaw
      December 19, 2016

      Around 3.2 million people living in the UK in 2015 were citizens of another EU country.

      Figures for 2015 suggest that 1.2 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries.

      That’s not a level playing field because only 1.2 British are spread around all EU countries whereas all 3.2 million from EU countries came to our small country.

    2. ????????
      December 23, 2016

      There is no guaranteed residency for EU immigrants, May still wants to keep them as bargaining tool.

  3. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    December 17, 2016

    No need to get nervous nor bitter now. UK citizens in the EU will be perfectly safe and able to stay, they will even be able to retain all EU citizen rights, as has already been made clear.
    The EU has never suggested (like the UK, indeed like Mrs. May herself!) that these citizens would become bargaining chips.

    Don’t be nervous about business either. There is mutual self-interest to organise the British departure in a smooth way. Look at the British media and you will see that the most eurosceptic media like the Daily Express have an interest in whipping up this anti-EU narrative.
    But the EU is simply patiently waiting whether Article 50 will be invoked and sees a very divided Britain, talking to itself and taking itself to court, and with some parts of the UK taking a very different position from other parts.

    1. Hope
      December 18, 2016

      If UK citizens had any sense they would move back to the UK. Civil unrest is all across the continent. Move before it becomes overwhelming. If not take your chances. No negotiating point. As the saying goes you made your bed now sleep in it. Bravaria finance minister claims the borders were first unsafe now the streets are unsafe and women are afraid to go out by themselves!

      Unfortunately PvL your view is not shared by many politicians in the EU dictatorship.

      1. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        If I were Briton on the continent, I would just stay put. Although I don’t have intimate knowledge of every single EU country, it is really pretty quiet over here. As for the politicians, again I think that most want en orderly departure while not hurting their own trade with the UK if that could be avoided.

  4. Cheshire Girl
    December 17, 2016

    Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t believe the European people feel that way about us, but only the Leaders of the EU. All too often, the Leaders of Countries do not reflect the views of their people. It often happens over here in the UK.

    1. zorro
      December 17, 2016

      Well, the leaders of the EU countries need to grow a pair and tell the Commission to fess up.


      1. Hope
        December 18, 2016

        It will take the people to vote with their feet. Hopefully we will see much more of the Brexit, Trump type outcomes as the people of Europe realise any agreement should be about friendship and trade to bargain with the large countries. It I see not about setting up a dictatorship where a few get to tell us how to lead our lives while they lead lavish lifestyles at our expense and cause trouble around the world where none existed nbefore or where it was none of our business. Time for the EU project to come to a halt, like the Berlin Wall it must be allowed to fall at the will of the people.

    2. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2016

      Almost never do leaders reflect the views and interests of the people they govern. Even if they did originally the establishment and their isolation soon ensures that they become totally detached from any reality.

      This is why we get such moronic group think that actually does things as that are as daft as the ERM, Bliar’s wars, the EURO, the EU, CAP, HS2, the Millennium dome, Hinkley C, central wage controls, stamp duty at 15% and endless other damaging insanities.

      1. Lifelogic
        December 17, 2016

        Plus all the climate alarmism/expensive energy group think drivel and the belief in the dire and unworkable NHS.

    3. NickC
      December 17, 2016

      You may be right that it is the EU leaders just playing politics and the majority of Europeans want to live and let live. Yet the EU leaders think they can get away with being puerile and obstructive because in the past all UK governments have accepted it and supinely rolled over.

      The current lack of robustness from Mrs May and her government has a twofold effect: it gives EU politicians the impression that we will be an easy mark again; and it demoralises Leavers. Maybe this is what the government wants. But if it doesn’t, it has to change its approach drastically.

      As each dreary remoaner week goes by, and every new EU threat gets aired, it becomes more and more likely that we are being prepared for the worst deal possible – ongoing fees to the EU, a transitional “deal”, a decade long timeframe, the Norway option, etc etc.

  5. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    December 17, 2016

    I read in your media that EU citizens in the UK are being asked to start collecting evidence to prove how long they have legally stayed in the UK! Unthinkable in e.g. the Netherlands where UK citizens are perfectly safe to stay and will be in the future! Why aren’t EU citizens in the UK left alone? They are being made nervous by their UK authorities.

    1. zorro
      December 17, 2016

      Stop talking nonsense.


    2. R. De Witt Jansen
      December 17, 2016

      PVL: “‘…the Netherlands where UK citizens are perfectly safe to stay and will be in the future”‘.
      If Ritter cannot make that statement at this present time then YOU certainly cannot. It has been made perfectly clear by the EU that this will not be the subject of discussion until Article 50 is triggered -repeat: Not Before. As you know when the UK PM raised this point with the “‘Gaggle” the other night she was met with SILENCE. If you and other EU Citizens are (and quite rightly) concerned regarding their future here turn your attention to your own Governments and press them to bring this discussion forward. Upon reflection I’m reminded of course if your Government or any other Nation State ”belonging” to the European Union steps out of line then there is always the possibility that funding for some project or other may be delayed. There will either be a reciprocal agreement (the preferred choice) or there wont depending upon the intransigence of those few individuals that run the EU in your name.

    3. Anthony Chambers
      December 17, 2016

      All EU citizens in the UK will be protected. Why can the Netherlands not say the same. They shuld feel deep shame.

      1. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Anthony Chambers: very simply it’s not an issue here, Brexit hasn’t happened yet – it is an internal British discussion, preparing to file for divorce, but will it and when?

        1. Know-dice
          December 19, 2016

          Interesting that you should say ” it is an internal British discussion”, this is absolutely true until Article 50 is triggered.

          So, why have the EU institutions had several discussion about the so called “Brexit” where the UK has been excluded?

    4. Andy
      December 17, 2016

      So has the Government of the Netherlands stated in clear terms that it will guarantee the rights of UK citizens resident in the Netherlands after the UK leaves the EU ? If not why not ??

      1. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Andy – see my answer to Anthony Chambers above.

    5. Bwexit
      December 17, 2016

      Why don’t EU citizens leave…then apply to come back? If they have valid reasons to be here then there will not be any difficulty. The UK does not even know who is here. We the People do! Should we search for them? Best not ask.
      The Brexit team should get their skates on! T^^he Legal system is looking outdated, old, ancient, obscure, obsolete with every passing brexited day. Perhaps the Supreme Court should be summoned to appear and give their learn-ed verdict early before the end of 2016!

      1. hefner
        December 18, 2016

        Maybe I am naive, but I would think that the UK already/should/could know who is in here. After all every time one is leaving or entering the country through an airport or a Channel crossing an identity document is taken and scanned either by a Border officer or a computer-linked machine. I agree that there might be some looser controls at the Irish/NI border and that some people entered illegally by boats or lorries in the past years. But that cannot be the majority of people travelling in/out of the country.

        Overall if the UK really wanted to know who is in the country it might mean British citizens having some form of ID and the state having a working computer system at the borders. After all people paying taxes and/or receiving benefits should be known by the “system”. Is it something too much to be asked from the Government?

        Or as I suspect, is the past claim of millions of illegals “below the radar” in the UK the usual post-truth peddled by tabloids? After all the UK is supposed to have one of the world’s best security services.

        1. Bwexit
          December 19, 2016

          Actually I agree in the main.I have never believed in the government proclaiming they do not know who is here.Or how many.
          It is pretty easy , even for 14 year old to devise a system scanning car number plates and ship, air ticket names without even bothering with umpteen other checking methods easily incorporated in a piece of software.
          The truth is the government deliberately allows millions of migrants to come here and stay against the Will of the People and just gives the believable lie that “government is incompetent” .
          It is our fault. We should be camping all year round outside Parliament with placards and voting out every MP except JR.

        2. stred
          December 19, 2016

          At channel ports, when coming back to the UK, the customs officer just looks at the passports and waves through. Same for the French officers in Dover. No scan is done normally. Same at HS1. Computers are not linked as done in the US, where they ask where visitors will be staying and scan on exit. If anyone overstays, their name and likely residence is available. Not here.

          If a proper system were in place their method of the Home Office in recording numbers would be shown to be inaccurate. The ministers would not agree for this reason and the most embarrassed is now in no 10 Downing Street.

      2. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Bwexit: why not just leave them in peace? They help you with your economy. They shouldn’t be made scapegoats.

        1. Hope
          December 20, 2016

          Our public services cannot cope nor were designed for the continent of Europe, Africa and Asia. We are full and do not need any further economic immigrate, welfare scrounges or people wishing to change our lives or do us harm.

          PvL, concern yourself with all matters EU and your country. Ours is leaving we wish you well but you need to mind your own business.

    6. Richard1
      December 17, 2016

      It’s a good point. This all seems rather a mess to me. EU leaders and the UK could agree in 10 minutes that reciprocal rights of residents will be maintained. Uncertainty and worry is bad for everybody – not just the people concerned. Give Mr Rutte a prod would you? It would only take one or two sensible EU PMs like him to speak up for the whole issue to be sorted out.

      1. rose
        December 18, 2016

        As I understand it, Mrs May did come to sensible agreement wih 20 or so countries to get mutual recognition of existing rights out of the way before the negotiations start, but it was vetoed by Frau Merkel and Donald Tusk.

      2. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Richard1: Let’s just wait for article 50 and your hope that that will happen. (for non-economical reasons I would concur – for economical reasons – I think brexit is not a very good idea)

        1. William D
          December 20, 2016

          To hell with Article 50. Repeal the European Communities Act 1972. We don’t need the EU’s permission to leave.

    7. Roy Grainger
      December 18, 2016

      They are being advised to collect evidence to lodge a claim under the 5-year indefinite leave to remain rules which apply to citizens from any country in the world and so entirely bypass whatever negotiations that are going on with the EU. It is a good idea. The horror on the left at this suggestion is bizarre, when I lived and worked in Germany I had provide evidence and complete a mass of paperwork and registration documents to be able to live there and open a bank account and so on, it is the same in other EU countries such as Poland. Interestingly, when I lived and worked in USA there was very little to do beyond getting the right visa in advance, much less than in the EU. It is interesting that the whiners on the left worried about losing the right to “free movement” have obviously never taken advantage of the opportunity themselves – for them “free movement” only means “immigration to UK”.

    8. rose
      December 18, 2016


      These are EU citizens applying for indefinite leave to remain, or for naturalisation. They have to show they have been in the country for five years. I expect you have similar rules for naturalisation in Holland. No-one is being harassed to apply for British nationality. They are doing it of their own accord and in their own interests.

      1. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Rose: Maybe I’ve been misled by the (British) media this time. Dutch media didn’t write about it, as they are not yet very involved in the possible future brexit.

        1. rose
          December 18, 2016


          I am sure you have been misled by our remainiac media – and on many other details too! Remember how you were taken in by the black propaganda here on “hate crimes”? It is a great pity. I can only apologise for these so-called reporters and journalists and wish they would desist from driving us all apart.

    9. rose
      December 18, 2016


      “They are being made nervous by their UK authorities.”

      They are not being made nervous by the authorities but by the malicious and destructive Remainstream Media. It is known here as Project Fear and it never lets up.

    10. Mark
      December 18, 2016

      Very disingenuous. As Peter knows, anyone who lives in the Netherlands has to register at their Gemeente. It’s a bit more compulsory than being on the voting register in the UK.

      1. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        December 18, 2016

        @Mark: nothing disingenuous about it! Registering at your gemeente is something you do in order to declare yourself as residing in the Netherlands – tax implications. It has no bearing on brexit.

  6. margaret
    December 17, 2016

    Come on John , you know as well as I do people everywhere spurt out the excuse ‘it works both ways ;’ but it never does . On can be kind, caring, giving and sensible and then the other side capitalises on it and even has the cheek to turn things around .What is so different abut the EU . Morals?

  7. Iain Gill
    December 17, 2016

    Problem being that one of the outsourcers I know has started bringing even more Bulgarians in, in the expectation that they will be allowed to stay. We need a firm cutoff date to stop the stampede.

  8. Ex-expat Colin
    December 17, 2016

    I guess Mrs May is not one of the gang/boys. Noticed that a lot of “greetings” of her highness Mogherini was well underway? The fact that she turns up everywhere bothers me.

    They will simply get more UKIP, Wilders, Le Penn and Grillo. The ADDE that is attempting to re-muster democracy in the EU is attracting fines for “misuse” of funds? Roger Helmer (UKIP energy spokesman) explains here:

    Heaven knows where the Tories are on Democracy. Labour….who/what is that?

  9. Mick
    December 17, 2016

    After watching the cringing video of the arrogant lot in Brussels giving Mrs May the cold shoulder well words fail me.
    Then we have this Mr Clegg
    I’ve news for you cloggy YOU LOST what part of that don’t you understand, if you carn’t keep it shut go and live in your beloved eu

    1. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2016

      Almost worse than the pleasant but wrong on every issue Clegg is his Lawyer wife who seems to be everywhere on the BBC. Invariably talking complete and utter drivel. One might have thought she would have understood the huge damage the EU and EURO have done to southern areas of the EU and especially Spain.

      But then she is a lawyer I suppose.

  10. Prigger
    December 17, 2016

    The EU will talk about it with us when we formally state we are leaving.
    It can hardly take our leaving seriously too with Parliamentary parties, UK business and our own Courts tossing spanners in the works.
    From the outside, the UK must appear unhinged. Its people voted six months ago to Leave. Then nothing. Obviously, the UK needs first to address its democracy-deficit meaningfully with its own people.

  11. alan jutson
    December 17, 2016

    I hope our Prim Minister has now realised, if she had not previously, that the EU is only interested in itself, and anything, anybody, any money, any country, if it can be in complete control.

    What a pathetic organisation, when common courtesy has been left in the gutter.

    I hope pay back time will come with a rapid and so called hard and clean Brexit, as the quicker we leave the better.

    I see it is being reported they are all now beginning to have second thoughts about teaching us a so called lesson, now that they realise that their trade, employment, and finances will suffer when the chickens come home to roost when we leave without a deal.

    We must be prepared to walk away if we do not get a sensible and clean exit, without paying.

  12. formula57
    December 17, 2016

    It is what evil empires be like.

    1. Hope
      December 17, 2016

      JR, your party is the front runner for its failure to deliver on all key policy issues which are of concern to the public: immigration, structural deficit, public services, cleaning up Westminster, delivering meaningful right to recall, delivering EVEL, delivering leave EU straight away. Today we have Osborne in the papers saying he gets it. No he does not. He made that clear this week of Syria and the EU. He is still agitating and being subversive to the will of people over leaving the EU. The Tory govt is not representative of ministers following the vote to leave the EU. May could have taken your advice instigated legislation much earlier, submitted the letter and got on with it. Her performance like her predecessor is pitiful. Has she not made a reshuffle for the pro EU Rogers and Lewelin types? She is content to allow project fear to continue in all its forms from the BoE, chancellor and ambassadors. Look inwards at your own traitorous party.

      1. getahead
        December 17, 2016

        Well said Hope.

  13. Godot
    December 17, 2016

    “The EU does not care about its citizens”
    No, it doesn’t nor can it care. It is a cross between an Administration and HR Department. Has pretensions to something fundamentally greater and different. Just now it is waiting for Mr UK to hand in his resignation. Been keeping an eye out for it since 23rd June 2016. Waiting for Godot.

  14. UK Landlord
    December 17, 2016

    The UK should start notifying certain categories of foreigner living here they will be leaving in the next two years subject ( stating a precise date ), only possibly, to review.
    Start with Germans.
    This will get EU attention by return of post.

    1. Hope
      December 17, 2016

      I think all immigrants from 2004 should be under review. The borders should be secure now and there should be an American style process to count people in and out. Anyone arriving to be able to provide costs their health care and education. The US I’ll not give you free health care.

      1. hefner
        December 17, 2016

        Why 2004? Why not sooner or later?

        1. Hope
          December 18, 2016

          It is a rough date, but could be traced when Blaire and his govt decided to search for immigrants to give the right a kicking as his speech writer puts it. It as not about a shortage in skills search. I remember that a service provider for his mass immigration plan said that the govt did not know how many asylum seekers were arriving in the country but they knew the south east could not cope hence the distribution around the country!

    2. Peter Wood
      December 17, 2016

      Interesting idea, clearly aimed at getting the message to Mrs. Merkel. However it smacks of using individuals as pawns. Perhaps the letter should include a pre-paid letter to the chancellor asking her to get the gnomes in Brussels to play nice…

  15. E.S Tablishment
    December 17, 2016

    Mrs May should sit down, light a cig and pour herself a beer. Take some knitting or a book of crossword puzzles. Needless to say she has never had a position in management or she would have done just so. When in Brussels!

  16. Lifelogic
    December 17, 2016

    Indeed as you say.

    These people clearly do not want the best for their citizens. They use them as pawns in their macabre political game.

    Indeed they do.

    You thought the EU’s idea was to take our money in order to give us some service.

    You were perhaps a little naïve in this. That is so rarely what governments even do.

    Perhaps the main argument for the remainers was that if we leave they will gang up on use in spite. But who wants to stay in a club with members like that? Anyway it is far easier for them to harm our economy while we are subject to EU courts and the many bonkers EU laws and red tape regulations.

    Reply I did not think that so I voted for Out in 1975

    1. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2016

      sorry “ever do” not even!

      Just leave now. EU trade negotiations will go on for evermore anyway so just leave and start the negotiating. The sooner and clearer the better.

      At the same time kill all the daft subsidies for farming, have a bonfire of red tape, get rid of the common import tariffs, go for cheap reliable non green crap energy.

      1. Ed Mahony
        December 17, 2016

        ‘have a bonfire of red tape’

        – bureaucracy can be a good thing (Germans love bureaucracy – the good kind).
        Yes, bureaucracy is terrible when you’re a start-up business. But when you want to expand and become an international company, then you have to hand over power to others and bureaucracy is a natural consequence of that. The challenge is then to keep bad bureaucracy to a minimum.
        The good thing about the UK is that we’re often good at start-ups but often bad at developing companies in truly, global brand ones. ARM Holdings is a great example. Instead of trying to hang onto it as a British company and develop it as a truly, global brand under British control, instead we passed on this opportunity to the Japanese.

        1. libertarian
          December 22, 2016

          Dear Ed

          That would be ARM the company that was founded and sold by an Austrian?

          ARM was and is a global brand and it was sold for $28 billion some small start up that was then…. The owners of the business sold it by the way and what makes you think the previous owners were British? Please stop posting on subjects that you know nothing about. Your posts about business are always wrong.

          Germans love bureaucracy you say, then you try to pretend there is a single market in services…. oh dear …. The whole reason there isn’t a single market in services is because the Germans protect their markets from competition with endless red tape when other countries don’t .

          The EU themselves did a study back in 2009 ( I think ) that found that 600 billion Euros a year is wasted by European companies complying with unnecessary bureaucracy …. Think I could find a better use for that money!

    2. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2016

      I was too young to vote in 1975. It was however very clear to me, even as a young teenager (mainly from listening to the excellent E Powell, Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Eric Varley, the DUP and Barbara Castle) that the “Common Market” was clearly far more than a Common Market.

      Also that it would inevitably lead to moves for towards and anti-democratic, top down, socialist EU superstate. There was/is no EU Demos, it could never be democratic even if it were trying to be one.

      1. Andy
        December 18, 2016

        Thing is you have to be 18 + 41 = 59 to have voted in 1975. So why is it that the generation 18-30 in 1975 seem to have voted in droves to Leave the EU 40 years later ???

      2. rose
        December 18, 2016

        Benn is the odd one out there. He was only opposing the EU for career reasons. The others meant it.

  17. Lifelogic
    December 17, 2016

    Experts say tax on sugary drinks could stop millions becoming obese, sure!

    Is Osborne’s totally bonkers sugar tax really going ahead? It is a pointless job creation scheme for yet more parasitic jobs.

    Gove was certainly right on “experts”. How on earth is putting a small tax on some sugary drinks (but not even more sugary fruit juices) going to do this? Carbohydrate flour, rice, pasta and bread all turn to sugars in the body anyway are they going to tax all those too?

    You can always find an expert to tell you what you want to hear etc ed

    Having some water drinking fountains in parks, schools, airports and public places might help though as they always used to have.

  18. Aardvark
    December 17, 2016

    What is morally repulsive about asking people to leave ones country?

    People have been entering our own country illegally. They do so because they know we have a very weak government who should punish them with prison and fines and then throw them out without further ado. They come from countries where thy are used to such illegals being killed and tortured. They resent and hate us for what they perceive as weakness and stupidity.
    With EU migrants. It is a different matter. They entered here legally. After Brexit, their position is not legal or should not be legal pending legislation. Having millions upon millions of foreigners in our country and somehow thinking “Oh it’s moral to have them here ” ,would be moral if our own people were properly housed and otherwise catered for. They are not.
    It would not be immoral for say Germany to tell British people living there to leave unless it is a case of “Go by the end of the week.” Why don’t they apply for German citizenship?

    Fed up of hearing MPs in Partliament citing cases of foreigners having lived here for 30 years afraid they will be told to leave. Why haven’t they applied for citizenship here?

  19. Iain Moore
    December 17, 2016

    “The UK has made clear it is happy for all legally settled EU migrants in the UK to stay”

    Or is it the same establishment who thought mass immigration was wonderful still misreading the situation . I bet there are a lot of groups who have entered out country under the EU free movement, who the establishment would happily hand out British citizenship to in our Brexit, whose presence have made local people’s lives a misery and would rather you didn’t .

    1. Dame Rita Webb
      December 17, 2016

      Read the Casey Report for further details

    2. Mark B
      December 17, 2016

      I find it ironic that, on the one hand, we voted BREXIT to reclaim our borders and control immigration, which we did not, and on the other, we are told that the UK (sic) is happy for EU immigrants to remain.

      I do not mind those that have jobs and are settled here, too late to do anything now. But as for those who do not, or are languishing in our jails, I want them gone !

      1. David Price
        December 17, 2016

        Agree there should be a clear date – 24th June 2016 seems to be the least arbitrary

  20. Richard1
    December 17, 2016

    Was Theresa May really cold shouldered or was this clever camera work in a brief moment? If so it was indeed a pathetic spectacle, and very extraordinary. (BTW why do all these political leaders hug and kiss? I don’t hug and kiss my clients or colleagues, does anyone else in middle life outside politics?) I suggest the Government makes a formal announcement that all EU citizens resident in the U.K. Who came in before a defined date (31 Dec 2016?) are welcome to stay, conditional on the EU doing the same. It should then make repeated public requests for a response, thereby highlighting the moral humbug of some of these people to their own electors.

    Reply That’s what it has done!

    1. Richard1
      December 17, 2016

      Has it? I would say that’s not clear – what’s the cut-off date?

    2. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2016

      Indeed that is what should be done. Hopefully it has been.

    3. Mark B
      December 17, 2016

      Actually, I would set that date a bit further back.

    4. zorro
      December 17, 2016

      The mafia always kiss each other when they meet…..


  21. DaveM
    December 17, 2016

    The BBC’s extensive coverage of the EU leaders giving the cold shoulder to the PM looked to me like another attempt to persuade people that they made the wrong choice by voting Leave. But realistically it showed the BBC’s lack of understanding – they clearly don’t understand that certainly the English will close ranks and become even more anti when faced with that kind of behaviour towards one of their own.

  22. Cpt Mannering
    December 17, 2016

    Are EU citizens barred from becoming British? If not then why do they need reassurance? Give them a form. Admittedly being British is a cross to bear. Hard being the best. Foreigners get jealous.

  23. June Romans
    December 17, 2016

    With ‘friend’s like these, who needs enemies?
    They are showing themselves up for the repulsive creatures they are, seeing their gravy train about to hit the buffers but accepting no responsibility for how it got there.
    I am happy for EU citizens already here to be allowed to stay, as long as they are not relying on UK benefits. Freedom of movement must mean, by implication, movement to work. I hope that all immigrants will be expected to be self sufficient in future, and not entitled to free access to NHS or any other benefits to which they haven’t contributed.

    1. Anthony Chambers
      December 23, 2016

      I hope that all people who have not contributed are prevented from getting benefits or access to nhs. Not just EU citizens.

  24. The Prangwizard
    December 17, 2016

    ‘Strengthens the case for leaving’?

    I thought the case had been decided. But maybe this is an indication that the plan is something like Hammond’s which sounds like ‘going halves’.

    There is too much weak talk from our leaders, ‘juvenile’ doesn’t cover it, ‘insulting’ would have been more accurate. But that wouldn’t do, would it? Not surprising they think we are a pushover and continue with their threats.

    I trust the insult will have put some back bone in the leadership but sadly not in everyone.

  25. Dave Andrews
    December 17, 2016

    One factor which seems to have been overlooked in the debate on UK citizens in the EU is, what might be the decision of the ECHR to any claim. I expect the court to find in favour of the UK citizen regardless of what the politicians in Brussels wish.
    I have supposed that post Brexit, anyone who has already moved to another country including the UK from another member state will be free to remain there whilst they have a job or if retired are paying their way. If they move to another country they may not have liberty to return if away for a prescribed time, say 6 months to a year.

  26. Brian Tomkinson
    December 17, 2016

    The sooner we are out of this anti-democratic organisation the better. Don’t see why there is need for lengthy ‘negotiations’; tell them we are prepared to have free trade but no free movement of people if not WTO rules. Let’s remove the uncertainty all the Remoaners complain about.

  27. Antisthenes
    December 17, 2016

    We bemoan the poor quality of Western leaders. The childish actions of the EU leaders gives us glaring examples of why. Childishness appears to be the current fashion amongst many in society. Where tantrums and stroppiness are displayed whenever feelings are hurt however slightly or things do not go their way or when their excesses are successfully challenged. It is most apparent in the misguided idealist and the self professed know it all.

    We all have ambitions, have a vision of the ideal and dislike opposition to them or being slighted. Losing is a bitter pill for us to swallow. However those of us who have left adolescence behind and live in a free and democratic society we accept that is how life is. We win some and we lose some. The former we think ourselves lucky. The latter we accept reluctantly but without rancour and look for mature solutions to make the best of it. Not the EU, the remainers or many a vested interest. Their preference is to wreak, deceive, lie, cheat and will even stoop to violence(especially those who espouse lefty causes) . Maturity appears to be in short supply in today’s modern world.

  28. Bye SNP
    December 17, 2016

    “The UK has made clear it is happy for all legally settled EU migrants in the UK to stay. So why can’t the others say the same about British migrants?”

    Why does the Labour Party, LibDems and SNP spend an inordinate amount of time in Parliament and on social media championing the plight of EU citizens living here? I see the Democrats in America appear also to care more for foreigners than they do for their own people.
    In each case, non-citizens of those without historic heart for Britain or their America, vote. In the UK,- EU citizens are immediately allowed to vote in our Local Elections.
    Are there no means of stopping EU citizens voting in our Local Elections prior to Brexit?
    Such a move may persuade the opposition parties to at least go through the motions of loving their country and concentrating on British people or, in the case of the SNP in our UK Parliament, Scotland issues alone. SNP MPs should be encouraged to go and live with their compatriots somewhere Europe, whichever country they feel is more their natural home.
    But non-EU (yet ) Lesotho would do them nicely.About 40% of the population lives below the international poverty line just like the SNP paints Scotland. Climate is similar and the Religion too. A perfect match.

  29. Norman
    December 17, 2016

    I suppose when you look at the problems continental Europe faces – each of the 27 from their own perspective – it’s hardly surprising our departure is viewed with feelings ranging from sorrow to disdain. I also think the apparent snub to Mrs May was probably unintended (if we take the charitable view). However, it will have done some good! The really irritating thing is the way that every twist and turn of the Brexit Saga is used by our own establishment commentators to poor scorn on the idea – wherein they actually reveal more of their true ideological colours than we might otherwise have seen. These are the real ‘traitors’ to the cause of independence and recovery of our national sanity, and will be seen to be so, as time goes on. And sadly, I suspect entrenched Europhilia in the Civil Service will be a major tide to prevail against.
    On the question of reparations, how come the pensions figure is not reciprocal – or does it only apply to EU Bureaucrats? If it refers to ex-pats, then they surely owe us more than we do them.
    May the resolve of our Brexit Team be stiffened, albeit with all due cordiality!

  30. Newmania
    December 17, 2016

    Ahh….the familiar comedy of the Nationalist. It’s like the Good Life or Porridge, we know the punch line and yet still we laugh .Every time one of their ridiculous assertions is found to be the nonsense it shall be …. an insult to the British people …or the Scottish People… or the proud people of Independent Pimlico ….or whatever.

    There was never a snowballs chance in Hades of getting good will form the allies we have lied about traduced and ultimately betrayed .etc ed

    Oops –

    1. Newmania
      December 17, 2016

      Has it occurred to you tuat it is almost impossible to recall any aspect of a referendum in which the 600,000 strong BNP constituency solidly voted Leave and express oneself “tastefully”

      whose fault is that ?

      1. Richard1
        December 18, 2016

        There were unpleasant people on both sides. Look at the hard left unions – the enemy within – trying to bring down the government through strikes as they tried with Thatcher, or the green hysterics who want the population reduced (how?) and industry shut down – all these were adamant for Remain.

        1. rose
          December 18, 2016

          If only the green hysterics did want the population reduced. Under Mrs Lucas it has been an open borders policy.

  31. Yule Knot
    December 17, 2016

    (The EU does not care…. )

    Christmas…The EU could have made warm noises if nothing more.

    The Supreme Court
    Post Office Workers
    British Airways Workers
    Southern Rail Workers

    Not possible the Labour Party is responsible for the Supreme-Court-Christmas
    But the rest yes. Their timing is in sync to create a knot of chaos.

    Like the EU, it should be understood, the Labour Party has never favoured democracy except as a means of gaining central power in order to thwart it from the top downwards.
    It should also be noted the Labour Party prefers not to say Merry Christmas as it hates the concept and absolutely everything it stands for.

  32. W. Tobin
    December 17, 2016

    But it’s not the EU who will be responsible for British Citizens in the EU after Brexit – it will be the individual 27 countries, just as the EU has nothing to say about non-EU immigration in Britain now.

    I would say that the UK doesn’t care about its citizens in the EU. Many of us were not allowed to vote in the referendum, and now we’re likely to be used as pawns in the negotiations.

    The referendum suffered from a democratic deficit – 5½ million people were not allowed to vote because Parliament considered them too young, too long abroad or too foreign. Sooner or later there will be more voting. Enfranchise the excluded 5½ million so that futurevoting may be more fairly representative:

    1. Grown-up
      December 17, 2016

      Of course you were not allowed to vote when were too young! There were people who were too young when we voted to join the Common Market.Those people who WERE too young then have voted NOW to get the hell out of the EU.
      See the difference in name?Common Market/EU? You decide to have a date with Les and you end up having a date with Chris. Les had a flashy job, good looking and drove a BMW. Chris hunts moles for a living and kills them by hitting them with a shovel, is as ugly as a box of frogs and drives a three-wheeled Greek supermarket trolley.
      Now just accept we voted Leave. There’ll still be things to moan about.

      1. Newmania
        December 17, 2016

        Oh quite do you think the sad losers of the country will suddenly realise they may have hand in their own destiny ? Not a chance, with no foreigners to blame there will soon be another scape goat , believe it. That is what the idle are like

        I agree with you about the sixteen year olds I do tgink basic literacy might be required though , that would have swung it the way of remain and in fact the higher you set the bar the worse it gets for Brexit

        Funny that . Its almost as if you had to stupid and resentful or something ….

    2. DaveM
      December 17, 2016

      If we’re going to do that we can exclude all Irish citizens from the vote and take out Gibraltar as well. Will that balance it sufficiently? And I’m not sure you can “do a Scotland” and lower the voting age because you think (mistakenly in Scotland’s case) that a particular demographic will alter the result in your favour. Maybe if there’s a referendum in the country you live in they’ll let you vote. After all, I presume your taxes go towards that country’s economy rather than being soaked into a health service that treats non-taxpaying foreigners and into providing child benefit for children that live a thousand miles from the UK.

  33. Norman
    December 17, 2016

    Whatever the Russians are up to (and I doubt there won’t be some reciprocity on the West’s part), I think we know enough to see through this latest storm as another liberal establishment backlash against Brexit, and against America’s New Broom. Again, it shows just high the stakes are, and it gets dangerous – but not so dangerous as continuing the way we were. Interesting times!

    1. forthurst
      December 17, 2016

      It is quite clear that Putin has been backing populist insurgencies and the march of progress, this despite the good work of such exemplary philantropists as George Soros; why otherwise would the people disobey their rulers despite the very clear warnings from the MSM which never, ever lies and is totally unbiased? Fake news has to stop: the EU is a wonderful institution, Mrs Clinton is an wonderful human being and we are fighting a very just war indeed using only very moderate opposition to overthrow an evil dictator in Syria as we did so successfully in Libya, thereby releasing all those wonderful migrants who are now so enriching the EU with their presence.

    2. Mitchel
      December 17, 2016

      So right. It’s the usual organs of neo-liberalism and neo-con foreign policy that are most rabid with the Russia stuff – The Times,Sky,BBC,Economist,Washington Post,NYT,etc and the same few longserving Russophobic talking heads pressed into service time and time again – Edward Lucas,Anne Applebaum,etc.

      Yes there is a major effort underway to delegitimize Trump,like Brexit.Trump is bypassing the US Establishment ;our lot are still enmeshed with it unfortunately.

  34. MickN
    December 17, 2016

    Lets just stop sending them a billion a month. What are they going to do? Fine us? Throw us out?

    1. Bob
      December 17, 2016


      “Lets just stop sending them a billion a month. What are they going to do? Fine us? Throw us out?”

      Yes, but they also also use it as an excuse to welsh on pensions for Lord Kinnock & family, Lord Mandelson and Lord Ashdown.

      1. zorro
        December 17, 2016



      2. ChrisS
        December 17, 2016

        Oh Dear !

      3. Robert Christopher
        December 17, 2016


        All organisations should have a pension fund to, guess what, pay the future pensions they promised to their employees.

        It needs to accumulate funds during their employees employment. If that doesn’t happen, then the organisation needs to be taken to court.

        Sorry! I forgot who Lord Kinnock & family, Lord Mandelson and Lord Ashdown are, or were! 🙂

        Also, can one be a member of the House of Lords and STILL receive money from a foreign power?

  35. Denis Cooper
    December 17, 2016

    I have never agreed that it was wise for Theresa May to make the future position of EU citizens who are already settled in this country conditional upon the good behaviour of politicians in their home countries.

    Whether we liked it or not politicians we elected gave them the right to come and settle here, and while it is fair to qualify that right by saying that criminals and spongers will not be allowed to stay after we have left the EU, so making the future position of EU migrants conditional on their own personal conduct, it is quite wrong to say that the great majority who are perfectly well-behaved may be retroactively stripped of that freely granted right if other people – namely the political leaders of their home countries – decide to behave badly towards our citizens.

    Checking back on who advised Theresa May to forget decency and any normal sense of fairness, and threaten to punish the innocent for the misdeeds of others, I find it was none other than Sir Ivan Rogers, who has recently been in the news; from August:

    “Theresa May was warned by the country’s most senior European diplomat not to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in Britain as it was one of the “few cards” she has to play in the Brexit negotiations.

    Mrs May received the warning when she was still a candidate for the Tory leadership. It came from Sir Ivan Rogers, Britain’s permanent representative to the EU, who is likely to have a key role in the negotiations.”

    By adopting that policy Mrs May abandoned the moral highground, a bad move for our reputation around the world; at least now that politicians across the EU are responding so badly to her approaches there is some chance of regaining it.

  36. Brigham
    December 17, 2016

    Cold shouldering May means they think we are already out. This being the case all moneys due to be paid into this crooked outfit, should be stopped forthwith.

    1. Mark
      December 18, 2016

      I think it means that they foolishly believe that the Juncker/Barnier plan for Project Fear to get us to beg to stay will work, and therefore they don’t have to think about anything else. They think that if it worked on Greece, it will work anywhere.

  37. Robert Christopher
    December 17, 2016

    The EU citizens living in Britain should be writing to their OWN government, and putting their case, for being sensible. It is how international relations used to work when it worked!

    Or is this a futile suggestion as Democracy is not part of the EU, only Ever Closer Union?

    1. Denis Cooper
      December 17, 2016

      In a sane world that would be true, but not in the barmy EU world where the Prime Minister of a notionally sovereign independent Poland comes to London for an official visit, and is made welcome, and has an apparently warm and friendly woman to woman chat with our own Prime Minister, but afterwards says she must wait to see what the EU decides about British citizens living in her country.

      Which of course will come close to what the Empress Angela decides; which I suppose is why our Prime Minister’s presentation on this issue was received in stony silence by the leaders of the other EU member states, with most of them waiting for Berlin to tell what they should think about it.

  38. Little Englander
    December 17, 2016

    As we know Mrs May is a seasoned, very experienced, battle hardened Politician and is used to and expects the knocks that with go to with the job (unlike our Dave). So as far as the reception she received from the subjugated Leaders of the 27 Countries goes she knows the score. Contrary to what some of the press report she actually does not appear to have been phased by it (water off a ducks back) rather she looks to be wanting to see for herself what the assembly or gaggle of EU Nation States do when she meets them ”collectively”. SILENCE is the answer – bowed and shackled by the strictures of the handful of people who rule them and therefore Europe. Mrs May and the United Kingdom have not been humbled – they have.

    1. Excalibur
      December 18, 2016

      Beware the wrath of a woman scorned.

    2. Mark
      December 18, 2016

      Perhaps they should watch her famous speech to the police a few years ago.

  39. Nigel
    December 17, 2016

    It’s an unusual strategy, isn’t it? Sending somebody to Coventry while you’re trying to get them to cough up £50 billion to cover your debts.
    We should just tell them we’re leaving, and not waste time on pointless negotiations.
    The trouble with the EU is there are more member states living on benefits than there are paying taxes.

  40. acorn
    December 17, 2016

    Another “straw man” argument JR. I wasn’t aware we had actually triggered Article 50 negotiations! There is a rumour that UK citizens, resident in the EU, are about to be, if not already, offered circa twenty two different types of EU member state dual citizenship application forms. (Some don’t allow dual citizenship yet.)

    The UK puts profits before people. As Thatcher said “there is no such thing as society”. On the continent it tends the other way around; there is a much stronger sense of society and community. The latter concept alien to neo-liberals. Hence, you will find BMW will do what it is told. In the UK the likes of Nissan tell the government what to do.

    After three decades of being screwed by the 1%, the 99% are out for revenge. They are voting for various weapons of Elite destruction; Brexit; Trumpism; Trade Unionism. The right wing see an animal like opportunity to take over in the west. The UK version had the right wing, drop the Brexit ball and get turned over, within three weeks of the referendum.

    On the continent the likes of Fillon (the French Thatcher) goes up against Le Pen (the French Mussolini) for the French Presidency, what a choice with no credible left wing in site! In the UK most voters don’t know their left wing from their right wing, unless it has a coloured rosette pinned to it. Google: The European elite have developed a death wish by Paul Mason .

    1. OMG
      December 17, 2016

      Trumpism? Trumpism.? Trump—–ism???!!???
      You Lost!!”!!! Accept it!!!!
      The “X” was placed in the other box.Get over it. Move on. Draw a line under it. Avoid Swiss Clinics. You can live if you have faith!” The parrot is dead, deceased, has gone to the happy Hunting Grounds. Valahalla!!

      1. acorn
        December 18, 2016

        Yet, instead of seeing the losers’ anger, we are witnessing a novel and graceless phenomenon: victors’ rage.

        Supporters of Brexit shout about “enemies of the people” and denounce “Remoaners” with all the venom of men and women who have lost rather than won the biggest political struggle of their lives.

        They demand their opponents pass loyalty tests, as if we were living in a dictatorship. ( Google – Leavers are angry, for their lies will return to haunt them Nick Cohen

        1. Mitchel
          December 19, 2016

          I might have taken the trouble to read that article.Until I read “Nick Cohen”.

    2. Richard1
      December 17, 2016

      You are taking the snobbish left-wing perspective that Brexit, Trumpism etc is a cry of rage by the uneducated plebs after been downtrodden by capitalism the last 30 years (I assume you mean approx the point at which the Soviet empire collapsed and socialism was comprehensively discredited? In fact of course the last 30 years have seen unprecedented increases in global prosperity with billions being lifted out of poverty).

      But maybe there is wisdom in the crowd – people in the UK can see that the elite argument that we need supra-national government and the abolition of democracy in the U.K. In order to have free trade with Europe is nonsense. In the US perhaps people just didn’t believe that Hillary Clintons mix of high taxes and green crap was either necessary or would bring prosperity.

      The people haven’t been duped by ‘fake news’, Fox News, big oil or UKIP racists. They’ve just made rational choices based on their experience and the evidence to date. The global left needs to wake up to this.

      1. libertarian
        December 18, 2016


        Excellent post, nail firmly hit.

        Meanwhile the “liberal left” continue to make up names, ascribe base values and traduce the majority in order to…….. Who knows what they think they’ll achieve with this. Do that not realise that the virtue signalling of the left has been discredited. Its game over for them.

        Meanwhile the challenge for us future looking, pragmatic realists is to ensure that we have a balanced political system in which we need a whole new party that focuses on the real issues which are aspiration, growth and free trade in order to build a fair, just and equitable society for all of our citizens. I dunno we could even call it iDemocracy

  41. Hope
    December 17, 2016

    I think the answer to your title is that politicos the world over do not care about its coitizens and the citizens have woke to realise it in recent elections.

    Unfortunately for you, you have yet to realise that change at the swamp of Westminster and in your own party will see radical voting by the public to get the change that is needed so MPs act on t wishes of their constituents and actually deliver on all aspects of their manifesto. The Tory party are exhibit A when it comes to failur in delivery, lying to the public on key policy issues i.e. Cut immigration to tens of thousands, Leave EU straight away, balance the structural deficit, deliver EVEL as stated by Cameron the steps of Downing Street, failure to deliver proper right to recall following successive scandals and corruption by MPs, never bringing Blaire to justice by a proper judicial inquiry. The list is endless and people are so fed up because third world immigration has given us third world public services and living conditions. Immigration has eroded our quality of life, created serious security issues, made us unsafe and unwanted in our own country! O you still do not get it and nor does the vow helming majority of MPs.

    I also note pro EU Cameron cheer leader Ed Lewelin French ambassador and the same for Incan Rogers who wa the PPS for Ken clarke now EU ambassador making ridiculous claims about how long it will take to leave. Is May going to have a reshuffle or is she content with project fear cheer leaders in key positions?

  42. Original Richard
    December 17, 2016

    “At the same time, why can’t the rest of the EU reassure business that they have no wish to damage their trade with us?”

    The EU press release dated 15/12/2016 :

    States in the second paragraph :

    “We reiterate that any agreement will have to be based on a balance of rights and obligations, and that access to the Single Market requires acceptance of all four freedoms”.

    The word used is “access” and not “membership”, so does this mean that we can expect to have trade sanctions applied against us when we leave as many countries have “access” to the Single Market without accepting the EU’s “all four freedoms” ?

    This would be very vindictive and a clear indication of the way the EU intends to develop in the future.

    The remainers only argument for remaining in the EU is that we will suffer economically if we leave, having decided to sell our long-term sovereignty for a few pieces of silver today.

  43. Bert Young
    December 17, 2016

    The cold shouldering of Theresa was a shameful act – typical of spoilt spiteful children . Such behaviour was the best illustration of why we are better off out – the sooner the better . Frankly I would stop payments immediately . For this to be followed up with a statement demanding a £50 billion exit fee was laughable .

    The question of UK citizens who are residential in EU locations is a serious challenge ; it is best dealt with by liaison and pressure with other outside bodies such as the IMF , NATO and the UN. Responding with a like for like reaction would be akin to walking in the EU slime ; equally we must not adopt a softly softly approach .

  44. Mark B
    December 17, 2016

    Good morning.

    At long last our kind host seems to be coming round to that which I have long argued here with little effect. That the EU will always, always, always act in a way that will protect itself, even at the expense of those it purports to serve.

    The EU is nothing like that which we have seen on earth. It was conceived by different men, in different places at much the same time. The goal was simple. To rob the nation states of Europe of their sovereignty and place into the hands of unelected and all powerful technocrats who would govern in absolute authority and with no accountability or means of removal from office.

    The fact that our kind host states :

    I thought the EU’s idea was to take our money in order to give us some service.

    Only highlights how we got into this mess. Too many were fooled into believing that it is all about trade, it is not. Tony Blair got it right, it is about POWER.

    The technocrats of the EU have grown very wealthy. They say to countries like Greece that they must cut their budgets and reduce pensions etc yet, see nothing wrong in demanding more money for itself and above inflation pay rises. Disgusting !!!!

    Through its own greed, arrogance and rampant corruption it will kill itself. But not before it takes down a few member countries with it.

    1. Mark
      December 18, 2016

      Their negotiating pitch at the moment seems to be that they just wish to take our money. I don’t think they have understood Mrs May’s message that Brexit means Brexit, or that after two years the Treaties will cease to apply to the withdrawing state.

  45. LordBlagger
    December 17, 2016

    Interesting to look at the EU’s demand for 50bn as the UK’s share for things like their pensions.

    UK share of the budget is 11.5%

    There are 33,000 Eurocrats.

    So 50 bn / 11.5% is the total bill for all EU countries.

    Divide that by 33,000

    The EU is demanding 13.2 million for each Eurocrat for their pensions etc.

    That its top of their list of priorities, shows what their priorities are.

    Also shows why the EU is a bad idea.

    The UK has paid up front for the pensions. It’s the EU’s problem it spent the contributions.

    It also shows the EU has a weak hand.

    1. Denis Cooper
      December 17, 2016

      Well, I don’t think it’s all to do with pensions.

      Back in early 2013 when Cameron was claiming a huge victory over the EU budget it was pointed out that the EU effectively has two budgets for each year:

      “This is all very techy but, for a quick recap, there are effectively two budgets, which are called ‘commitment appropriations’ and ‘payment appropriations’:

      Commitments refers to amounts that can be authorised in a given year but which are often actually paid out later or over several years – some refer to it as the credit card limit.

      Payments refer to the amount of funds which will actually be paid out in a given year. This is traditionally what interests national treasuries in the short term – and particularly now the UK – as it is this figure that has an immediate impact on their contributions to the budget.”

      But of course apart from any which drop away for some reason, such as a project being scrapped, all the commitments will eventually have to be paid for when they fall due over following years.

      If we had voted to stay in the EU then the UK would have been expected to pay its share towards these liabilities, or “unpaid bills” as the EU Commission sometimes calls them, anyway, year by year, and of course more on top of that, year by year, in perpetuity; but instead it seems that the Commission is rolling up all those future payments which were expected from the UK as a continuing member state into a single lump sum to be handed over on exit.

      They probably see this as a sensible precaution on the insulting assumption that once we had left we could not be trusted to pay what became due each year as the money was actually required for the payments, so they need to make sure of getting all of the money off of us before we are allowed out of the door.

      Moreover they reckon that screwing this money out us should be their top priority for the withdrawal negotiations, if necessary taking up the whole two year period mentioned in Article 50 TEU.

      1. acorn
        December 19, 2016

        So Denis, you are in favour of welching on our existing EU contracts. That should go down well in future trade agreement negotiations.

        Particularly, as the first job will be to try and hold on to all the trade agreements we will leave, when we leave the EU. Keeping in mind that the UK, will have about a sixth of the negotiating power the EU has. That’s before the UK hits the “EU preferential Rules of Origin”.

        As to your “two budgets” thing. It may help if you read up on the difference between “cash” and “accrual” accounting procedures.

        1. Denis Cooper
          December 20, 2016

          I’m in favour of honouring our genuine obligations, which may or may not be the same as our obligations as claimed by the EU.

          “Particularly, as the first job will be to try and hold on to all the trade agreements we will leave, when we leave the EU.”

          You might think so, but apparently Barnier reckons that the first job will be to screw as much money out of us as possible. Then, if there is any time left at the end of the two year period, maybe we will move on to discussing less important matters like trade.

          I don’t need any further help of the “two budgets thing”, thanks, it is clear enough already.

        2. Mark
          December 20, 2016

          Denis did no more than set out the weak underpinnings of the Juncker/Barnier plan. Those who have looked at what the EU might be entitled to come out with significantly lower estimates than they do.

          In any normal joint venture if one of the parties decides to withdraw, leaving the other parties to pick up its share, then current spending up to the departure is paid for, and a balance sheet adjustment sum is calculated based on valuation at the separation. It does not include forward payment beyond that date.

          There have been several examples of this in the energy industry in recent years: for example when Centrica withdrew from the Hinkley Point project they had no liability for the eventual cost of the new power station, and likewise when Shell withdrew from the London Array windfarm.

          1. acorn
            December 21, 2016

            Treaties are a political contract, not a commercial contract.

      2. Mark
        December 20, 2016

        I read that this plan is promoted by Juncker’s right hand man, Selmayr, with the objective of forcing the UK out with no agreement. The problem for them is that no agreement means no agreement, and therefore no money either – and yet still an obligation to reach an agreement eventually. The end of Juncker’s Commission can’t come soon enough. The UK should simply table sensible proposals, albeit drafted somewhat in the UK’s favour, and take them to court for failure to honour their Article 50 obligation to negotiate.

    2. zorro
      December 17, 2016

      They should be told to go forth and multiply in a diplomatic fashion.


    3. alan jutson
      December 18, 2016


      Sounds like another giant Ponzi scheme to me.

      Once again riches for the few, paid for by the many.

      Time to expose this farce of a pension scheme with some real figures.

  46. Peter Wood
    December 17, 2016

    One hopes that by now the message is clear, we could waste a great deal of time trying to maintain our ‘preferential’ trade relations with the EU, or we could more usefully and quickly conclude trade deals with the rest of the world; particularly the US, Commonwealth nations, South American nations and African nations. (I for one, prefer Australian and Californian wines)
    First rule of the market: take the low hanging fruit while you can.

  47. Bryan Harris
    December 17, 2016

    Their true colours come shining through……. but it’s only to be expected of the EU elite.

    If it wasn’t for the EU we’d never have heard of the third rate politicians now called the EU elite – they’d have been kicked out of office and denied any further say in anything – these are the small europeans lacking any real motive to make the people of Europe strong, they are only interested in securing their own power base.

  48. Atlas
    December 17, 2016

    … yes, the EU has proved to be unpleasant on quite a few occasions. Its pretensions about being a country rather than an association of countries were a good enough reason to leave.

  49. rose
    December 17, 2016

    You must remember that some of the key players were brought up on the other side in the Cold War. That wouldn’t make for automatic humanitarianism.

    Their priority is to get as much money out of us as possible and this probably extends to the individual British people living on the Continent too. Charge us billions as a country, just to get out of the Mafia, and then charge the individuals for staying. They probably see it as compensation for all the extra welfare payments in the future that their people might not be getting from us. They also know there is no way we would ever throw out their people or deny them benefits, so they don’t need to negotiate on that at any stage.

    We know they don’t care about the national prosperity of their countries or they wouldn’t be in the single currency.

    1. rose
      December 17, 2016

      The stark fact is Frau Merkel is happy to take in millions of men from other continents and presumably their extended families later, and to give them welfare etc., but not to be welcoming or reassuring to British people who are paying their own way.

  50. William Long
    December 17, 2016

    Any surviving idea that the EU is a benign institution is rapidly vanishing and the treatment of Mrs May can only have accelerated this process. This should help to make the Remainers realise that in fact we will be much better off out and the sooner the better. Let us hope that among those whose minds are changed include those within the Government who are reluctant to leave.

  51. Noise
    December 17, 2016

    I watched today a recording on TV of”BBC Parliament Scotland Holyrood 15 Dec 2016 Finance and Constitution Secretary Derek Mackay making a Budget Statement.

    Being SNP, every fault with the Scottish economy was said to be due to the UK Parliament and/or Brexit. Scottish Conservatives found it all laughable.

    What was striking was the behaviour of Ms Sturgeon. She was seated next to Mr MacKay Throughout his speech and then throughout his answers to specific questions she was turned first to one side then the other conducting audible and visual quarrels with various people. Near the finish of the proceedings, whilst he was still in full flow she swivelled her chair, faced it to the rear and kept jabbering on to someone benches behind him. Ms Sturgeon is the very picture of impoliteness.

    MSPs , even and perhaps especially of her own SNP are extremely tolerant. We’ve only seen such behaviour in the UK Parliament from Anna Soubry MP when she was on the front bench. There she seemed to have a continuous uninterrupted dialogue with the whole of the Labour Opposition across the room whoever was speaking however important the speaker’s utterances even when the Tory PM was speaking.

    When Ms Soubry loses her seat at the next General Election she would meet with jabberings of approval if she flitted to Scotland and joined the SNP. Her views too, are identical to those of Scottish nationalism.

    1. Dunedin
      December 17, 2016

      @Noise “When Ms Soubry loses her seat at the next General Election she would meet with jabberings of approval if she flitted to Scotland and joined the SNP. Her views too, are identical to those of Scottish nationalism.”

      You will be pleased to know that Miss Sturgeon is pondering whether to allow SNP candidates to stand for election in England and Wales – Ms Soubry could save on removal expenses! Apparently the SNP’s London office is “booming”, and “disenfranchised” voters in England and Wales want to vote SNP.

      Perhaps Miss Sturgeon is considering a sort of reverse takeover of England and Wales if she cannot win an independence referendum.

      1. Noise
        December 18, 2016

        Yes the Scots were always making forays into England and Wales. Never once were the sheep returned.
        They still go missing.

  52. forthurst
    December 17, 2016

    Unfortunately, Mrs May likes to suck up to people who are not in point of fact English without asking for anything in return, such as loyalty, or at least a quid pro quo, so it is hardly surprising we English find ourselves at a disadvantage in consequence of her creepy naivety.

  53. CheshireRed
    December 17, 2016

    They’re giving May a hard time because they know she and the UK hold all the aces.
    What’s the biggest stick the EU can hit us with? So-called hard Brexit, and off to the naughty step of WTO rules we go. Outcome…no annual £10 billion payment to Brussels and a tariff surplus of another £10 billion. So that’s effectively a c£20 billion annual gift from the EU to the liberated UK. Gosh, how painful is that going to be. The alternative is a continuance of tariff-free trade but with the UK outside the single market. Decisions, decisions. They have nothing to threaten us with and they know it.

    1. Iain Moore
      December 17, 2016

      We do have a good negotiating position, unfortunately you fail to grasp the level contempt the EUphiles, their fellow travelers, and the British establishment have for us. To them we are a useless, worthless country, who have lucked into this position because of the benevolence, hard work, generosity, and intelligence of others. Nothing we have is the result of our achievements, as such we have to beg for crumbs off the EU’s table. This can be no better seen than by the report this morning where our rich fishing grounds are now to be seen as a liability, where we have to beg the EU to allow us to sell fish there, and also have to beg the EU fishing fleet to not depart our waters.

      If we won the call on a toss of a coin, the Remoaners would find a way to suggest that we had in fact lost , and had to give away our winnings to the other side.

    2. Ed Mahony
      December 17, 2016

      ‘They have nothing to threaten us’

      – They can block us from the Single Market.

      – 44% of our trade depends on the European Single Market.
      – Meantime we can’t afford to take risks with our economy when we have a national debt at a whopping 93%.
      – And it’s a basic rule of economics, that you depend on those countries nearest to you for the bulk of your least competitive companies both in services and goods (and Darwin’s survival of the fittest applies as much to business as it does to anything else).

      We want to be a trading nation with the rest of the world. But there’s nothing stopping us being one inside the EU. The EU is just an excuse. Germany is currently the third largest exporter in the world, by a considerable margin over Japan in 4th place, exporting 2.5 times more to the US than us, 3 times more to China than us. And 4 times more to Japan than us.

      The country voted to leave the EU but not the Single Market (lots of prominent Brexiteers before the Referendum said the Referendum was not about leaving the Single Market, nor did the ballot paper say this either).

      Yes, we must leave the EU. But if we play our cards right, we could get the rest of the EU to reform, including, above all, on immigration. And then we can have the best of both worlds – to enjoy the benefits of the Single Market with control on immigration and other important EU reforms with the EU becoming, effectively, a new organisation.

      In the meantime, don’t forget how important our European neighbours will be in the future – not just for trade, but also for peace and security in Europe,as well opposing the Russia, mass immigration from Africa and the Middle East and terrorism, as well as working with our European neighbours on commercial, scientific and cultural projects too big for us alone. Whilst not forgetting the reality of globalisation and how the world is slowly but surely forming into large blocks of geopolitical interests: USA being one block, India developing into another, but above all, the biggest being China which in 20 or 30 years time will be a real beast to contend with – and something like 30 times larger than the UK. Which is why we need to remember the maxim, ‘SAFETY IN NUMBERS’ as opposed to being an isolated island in the North Atlantic, living in a bygone age.

      Lastly, don’t forget, it’s not just the EU’s GDP that has been declining over the years, the USA’s and Japans’ has as well. And that is because the Chinese are simply working harder than us for less. But it’s not just China, and other countries like it, that are destabilising our old way of life, including that of jobs for working class people, it’s also the increase of technology putting working class people out of jobs. We need to be aware of the real problems – of how things really are NOW and what the world will look like in 20 or 30 years time as well.

      1. zorro
        December 19, 2016

        Rubbish….. They CANNOT block our access to thier internal market or stop trade with us. This is the stupid strawman argument put in the minds of people that if we leave the EU we will no longer be able to buy or sell a bean from them. It is total NONSENSE……

        Or do you think that they will impose a new Napoleonic Continental system? That worked out well….. not


  54. Juliet
    December 17, 2016

    Tick for tack behaviour is both unprofessional and childish.
    The EU powers to be are supposed to be viewed as leaders but little leadership seem to be excelling at the moment

    Trust and integrity used to count, but selfishness is now finding a place
    Time to take a step back and look at situation with more humility
    And get back to focussing on the things that really matter.

    Hoping 2017 will be the time for reflection and realization, opportunity
    And EU step up and the UK be the difference that is needed in Europe

  55. zorro
    December 17, 2016

    I think that May struggles in these situations with the Prince Charles cufflink struggle. She need not do so. It is absolutely clear to me that drawn out negotiations are not in the UK interest and we must take the initiative and leave under our own conditions. Fortunately, the EU through their stupidity are creating the right mood music for us to go down this path.

    As the EU are not prepared to consider us as full and equal partners and are actively conspiring against us, we stop payments and do not pay for any future commitments. When we talk money, they will squeal when they see it disappearing. Above all, they must know that we must be respected and not treated poorly…. It is the only language they and the USA understand. If you do not stand up to them, they walk all over you.

    I know that MT would not have stood for what May went through. Does anyone think that any of our post MT leaders would have negotiated a rebate?


  56. Badgerer
    December 17, 2016

    We will be leaving animals to the mercilessness and abject cruelty of the EU Elite.

    I should think every British Party of all hues and extremes, ( including the Labour Party without it directly mentioning the EU ) has within its guidelines the definite intention of propagating British values in animal welfare.

    The EU lacks our civilisation. We should insist as part of any trade package something we have thus far not been able to do…secure the humane transport and treatment of our exported animals into the EU.
    Yes, historic poverty can breed a disrespect or disregard of the finer points of animal welfare. Hunger often over-rules the heart. But we need to recognise the EU as a whole has had many more hungry years than ourselves.It will probably become more hungry. We need therefore to insist on guarantees for our animals ( written )

  57. ChrisS
    December 17, 2016

    I hope that the 2.7m EU Nationals living in Britain will now realise that it is the politicians of their home countries that are creating the uncertainty over their future. Mrs May was hoping to resolve their status as soon as possible but it’s now evident that leaders of the 27 are only interested in preserving their failing organisation and will ruthlessly sacrifice anything and everything to that end.

    Even Ireland is toeing the line, even though she has more to lose than almost anyone else and still owes us the £8bn we lent them to get them out of trouble.

    We all saw what Germany and Co did to Greece and now it seems they are even prepared to jeopardise the future of their own people living in the UK.

    Frankly, Merkel and the other 26 are not worth negotiating with. With their current attitude, nothing worthwhile is likely to come out of the negotiations. We might as well just up and leave now and take our £850 a week with us.

    Oh, and at the same time we should recall all our military personnel stationed in Eastern European as tripwire forces.

    We can also leave them to sort out their own migration problems without the help of the Royal Navy.

    Such petty attempts to embarrass our Prime Minister will be received here very badly.

    Nothing brings out the British spirit of determination more than being in a majority of one. Don’t they remember the Thatcher years ?

    PS it won’t take ten years to negotiate a trade deal : there won’t be a European Union by then to make one with.

  58. EU-Ra
    December 17, 2016

    The EU does not care about de-population of certain of its nation states. It believes in the transmission of intelligence via DNA but is quite happy a nation being “brain-drained” ( as happened according to the late PM Harold Wilson to the UK in the 60s ) but of the Baltics, Eastern and Southern Europe. Perhaps it figures the Slavs and others will be the human fodder to drag and tow its giant stone blocks when building pyramids for its High Priest Junckers.

  59. Sue L
    December 17, 2016

    Doubtless you will comment in some future blog on the €50-€60 billion demand which was being muted at the same time as this charade.

    1. I trust that the bill will be itemized in full, with each line item cross referred back to previous commitments made by the UK Govt.
    2. I trust that any payment actually made (if any) will be conditional upon receipt of a clean independent audit opinion as to each amount in question which may require the EU to produce clean audited accounts for their annual expenditure.
    3. I trust that any payment will only be paid when the underlying liability has itself been settled with an understanding that the EU are to use their best endeavours to keep such costs to a minimum .
    4. I trust that the UK’s share of any EU assets (e.g. premises/ loans repaid to which guarantees refer etc) will be offset.

    And so on.

  60. Tad Davison
    December 17, 2016

    It’s called showing their true colours.

    We on the leave side have always warned other, less committed people, just what we are dealing with. The EU is badly managed, badly led, and doomed to failure. It’s ethos is repugnant. If the EU was any good, I for one would wish to belong to it, but it isn’t, and I sure as hell don’t.

    Maybe now, the truth about the EU will start to hit home and make those who still wish us to belong to it see what a massive mistake it would be. I doubt though that the Lib Dems and the Blairite wing of the Labour party, together with the likes of Clarke and Soubry, will ever see sense. You can’t teach even basic common sense where there is an absence of the capacity to learn.

    Tad Davison


  61. Augustyn
    December 17, 2016

    I fear our friends in Europe (some of whom are clearly now former friends) have forgotten their history and what happens when attempts are made to push the British people up against a wall as they protect their democracy. I do not advocate violence but in today’s world the UK government can talk directly to the people in individual nations in Europe.

  62. Doug Powell
    December 17, 2016

    By insulting our Prime Minister on official duty, the EU was insulting the entire British Nation. The orchestrated threats from EU officials leave us in no doubt of what they think of us. They show unrestrained delight and zeal in insulting and threatening the Land of Winston Churchill! Also, this vindictive attitude of EU officials shows no regard or respect for EU nationals living here. For example there is Mr Tusk, a Polish official, issuing threats of giving us a hard time, which, if enacted, would automatically impinge on the lives of the million Poles living here. Not much Polish solidarity there, Mr Tusk!

    However, the EU is the known enemy. What should be of greater concern to us is the enemy within, by which I mean the BBC and the Remoaners that keep feeding it anti Brexit stories. From the 24th June onwards, the BBC has spewed out anti Brexit story after anti Brexit story, day after day! Last week we had 3 whoppers! i) negotiations could take 10 years! ii) we could still have to pay £50 billion to the EU! iii) We will have to give EU fishing fleets access to our waters! I am sure Brexiteers would give 3 resounding “Nos”, or if the EU prefers 3 “NONs”. All these stories (myths) are designed to reconcile us to long years of tiresome negotiations, thereby boring us into submission and an eventual acceptance of remaining as the only option. Remember! You can’t trust a remoaner!

    2 courses of action are required. First, remove the state funding licence fee from the BBC. Let it stand on its own feet and sell its product in the market place via subscription! I, for one, would not pay for such biased rubbish! Second, don’t waste time considering negotiations where none is needed: ie no further budget contributions – no fish from our waters – Control of borders – No free movement of people – immigration dependent on our requirements – no single market – no customs union – (then give EU the choice of free trade or WTO rules – as advocated by JR).

    Let us hope that after the slight suffered by Mrs May on behalf the nation, she will now realise that a hard Brexit is out of the question. What we need is a bloody hard and immediate Brexit!

  63. NickW
    December 17, 2016

    There are two separate issues.
    International rules of Trade are one thing and consumer preference and choice is quite another.
    The EU runs the risk that it so poisons relation with Britain that the British no longer choose to buy their produce.
    Imagine Jaguar incorporating that clip of Mrs May into their advertising; what would it do to BMW sales?

  64. turboterrier
    December 17, 2016

    Bloody well said John

    These people are beyond contempt.

    They ain’t worth a rub.

    Just get us out, what more insults does Mother Teresa have to receive before she really goes for a fast exit.

  65. Eh?
    December 18, 2016

    The biggest battles will be to explain to the electorate who he is and what far-right-populism means.

  66. John
    December 18, 2016

    Without wishing to sound like Alf Garnett, the obnoxiousness of some of these Eurocrats almost defies belief. Michael Barnier trots around spouting nothing more intelligent that “non” to just about any question put to him; I don’t recall the French being quite arrogant to the British when our forces liberated France from Nazi occupation in 1944.

  67. slush
    December 18, 2016

    If Conservatives want May as Leader they need to think ahead and stop her falling into traps. If they want to get rid of her let her blunder on.
    H.Clinton was propped up by security guards and wore identikit trouser suits.
    If you must have a woman leader instead of an alpha male ( Have we got any ?)
    you need to support her.

  68. Original Richard
    December 18, 2016

    “The EU does not care about its citizens”.

    Because the EU believes “the ends justify the means.”

  69. Robin Pearce
    December 19, 2016

    We’re taking some power from them. And they’re behaving like a child having a toy taken away

  70. Roger Collins
    December 20, 2016

    If Margaret Thatcher was Snubbed like that she would have immediately left and Triggered Article 50. Mrs May you should have done the same

  71. Roger Nightingale
    December 20, 2016

    The EU is only interested in the money it can steal from this country……We need a government that can tell it to piss off……what we do have is what looks like another corrupt government , with scum politicians being paid off from the EU to keep us in and paying Millions every week…….Does this stupid government actually believe anything what the EU says…?????? Just walk away from it now….it will be the same results if we stay and keep paying…….or just prove that the government is corrupt……again

  72. David Knott
    December 20, 2016

    The rest of the Eu are pathetic, they don’t give a damn about their citizens or industry, proven by the complete disregard they have for the unemployment statistics and the blinkered drive to preserve the euro at all costs.
    We should withdraw immediately, stop paying our dues and stop deluding ourselves that we will obtain a reasonable settlement, we won’t! The alternative is to spends years trying to negotiate a deal and either falling at the first hurdle or have several parliaments veto it down the line. Either way we will fall back on WTO rules and in the meantime we can get on and negotiate with genuine businesslike people in the rest of the World.

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